the Witnesses vs. the LN theorists
Robert Harris
Practically since the day of the assassination, LN theorists have told
us how terrible the witnesses were. In fact, they sound very much like
OJ would have sounded if there had been witnesses to the murders he
committed:-)
That tactic has been employed to discredit numerous doctors and nursese,
as well as the large majority of witnesses in Dealey Plaza who heard the
shots that day. Of course, witnesses do indeed make errors, although
most of those errors are the result of visual confusion during a
relatively complex series of events, or faulty identifications of
suspects, sending an occasional innocent person to jail.
Most of the DP witnesses reported that they heard one shot, a delay and
then two closely bunched shots at the end of the attack - not exactly a
complicated sequence.
But in this case, there is no need to squabble about witness
reliability. And that's because we have at our disposal, the best
witnesses on the planet - ourselves.
We have at our disposal, four people who rode in the limousine with the
President that day, and thanks to Abraham Zapruder, we get a very clear
look at what they did and when they did it.
Furthermore, we can easily see when those people were exposed to the ear
shattering sound levels of the shock waves and muzzle blasts following
those shots that came from high powered rifles.
Mrs. Connally is our best "witness we can witness", because we can
follow along with her testimony and match it up with her actions in the
film. Her WC testimony reads like a narration.
She said she heard one "noise" and then looked back and saw JFK in
distress with his hands and arms having risen to the level of his neck.
We see her do exactly that in the Zapruder film, at about frame 257.
She said she heard the "second shot" shortly after that.
She stated that she heard Governor Connally shout, "On, no, no, no" just
before she heard that second shot. And we can see that he began to shout
between 242 and 250, as confirmed by the excellent article at mcadams
website, by Martin Shackleford.
Mrs. Kennedy also recalled two shots after he began to shout.
And Nellie said she never looked back again after she heard that shot.
In fact, she turned to the rear TWICE after frame 223, the last time at
about 282.
But she never looked back after frame 285.
Of course, Mrs. Connally did not know that she was placing a shot at
frame 285. We are the ones who confirm that for her, by watching her in
the film, carrying out the actions she described. If she was wrong, she
would have made four factual mistakes in regard to an extremely simple
issue, which consisted of one very loud gunshot.
To make that error, she would have to have overlooked one 130 decibel
rifleshot and then suffered the delusion of not only hearing a shot that
didn't exist, BUT REACTING TO IT AS WELL.
And we can see EXACTLY when she reacted to that shot by quickly turning
away from President Kennedy and back to her husband, then pulling him
back to her - just as she told us. And that happens at precisely, frame
291, exactly one third of a second after 285.
Roy Kellerman heard one "noise" and then a rapid "flurry" of shots which
he likened to a pair of sonic booms. And we can see him react to that
same shot, beginning within 1/18th of a second of Mrs. Connally. His
reactions are ridiculously obvious,
Notice that his reaction also began in perfect unison with Greer, who
began a pair of rapid turns to the front and back, as he panicked and
slowed the limousine. Greer would later testify that he felt the
"concussion" of that second shot, which could only have been the shock
wave of the passing bullet.
Greer stated that the second and third shots were nearly simultaneous
and we can see his reaction in near perfect unison with the others.
To get a better look at these reactions and more details about this
issue, please look at the video presentation I made on the subject. This
video is in Quicktime format and is ideal for those who wish to single
step back and forth through the frames.
http://www.jfkhistory.com/Nellie2/Nellie2.mov
I also have it posted at Youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ql6VqZDiC6s
Robert Harris
cdddraftsman
What is RH blabbering about ?
Anyone figure it out yet ?
tl
WhiskyJoe
> the Witnesses vs. the LN theorists
It's not the Witnesses vs. The LN theorists.
It's really the Witnesses vs. the Witnesses.
There is wild disagreement among the witnesses.
Were there 2, 3, 4 or more shots?
Many thought all the shots came from roughly the
TSBD direction. Many thought all the shots came
from roughly the Grassy Knoll direction.
Many thought the last two shots were closer
together. Many thought the last two shots were
right on top of each other. Many others thought
the shots were evenly spaced apart or that the
first two were closer together. And since a
rifle shot doesn't make one sound "Bang" but
two distinct sounds "Crack-Thump", it's easy
to see why many witnesses would think there
were two shots right on top of each other.
The "Crack" from the supersonic bullet
followed by the "Thump" from the muzzle blast.
And the "Crack-Thump" would be most distinct
for the final shot, where the bullet traveled
the farthest and the two sounds would arrive
the furthest apart, up to 0.1 seconds apart
for some witnesses, which might cause one to
detect as two different sounds.
The witnesses don't tell a consistent Pro LN
theory nor a Pro CT theory. They don't tell
any consistent story at all. Like typical
witnesses, they are like the blind men who
try to describe the same elephant.
bigdog
I won't even respond to your continuous insistence on a Z285 shot
because you comprise a cult of one who believes in such nonsense and I
start to nod off everytime I try to read through another of your
tortuous arguments for this belief of yours. As far as LNs insisting
that witnesses are unreliable, is there another choice? How can we
find that witnesses are reliable when we are given so many conflicting
accounts of the same event. If witnesses were reliable, there would be
a clear consensus on the number, direction, timing, and spacing of the
shots. No such consensus exists. We know that large numbers of people
got it wrong because it is not possible that they could all be right,
or even that a large percentage of them got it right. In addition,
many people simply got some things wrong and some things right. I
didn't think a CT could surprise me any more, but when you claimed
that Nellie Connally was the best witness we have, I just about fell
out of my chair. Nellie Connally is demonstrably one of the worst,
perhaps the worst witness we have from DP. Nothing she tells us is
remotely compatable with what the real best witness, Zapruder's
camera, tells us.
David Von Pein
>>> "There is wild disagreement among the witnesses." <<<
Not as to the number of shots. Pert-near ALL of the witnesses (90%+)
agree that the number of shots did not exceed three, with more than
75% of them agreeing that there were exactly THREE shots fired (and
that includes virtually every person who was in a position to
initially report the shooting to the world via television, radio, and
wire services; e.g., Jay Watson, Pierce Allman, Merriman Smith, Jack
Bell, Robert MacNeil, Jerry Haynes, Mal Couch, Jim Underwood, plus
others).
And there's virtually no disagreement among the 200+ witnesses as to
the number of DIRECTIONS those three shots came from -- it was 1.
So we have a very large (almost unanimous) consensus on these two key
points:
Number of shots -- 3.
Number of directions the shots came from -- 1.
And since we know beyond all possible doubt that multiple rifle shots
were being fired from the Texas School Book Depository (to the REAR of
JFK's limo), with the three shell casings from Oswald's Mannlicher-
Carcano rifle that were left on the floor of the TSBD's Sniper's Nest
confirming this fact beyond all possible doubt, then the math isn't
overly difficult beyond this point.
Now, let's see the conspiracy theorists try and tackle those above two
statistics and the above logic that resides in my last paragraph and
come up with a coherent theory about how it was somehow impossible for
Lee Harvey Oswald to have acted alone because of all those "Grassy
Knoll" earwitnesses.
Yes, witness testimony (in general) is, indeed, the least-reliable
form of evidence, I agree. But these two witness charts are pretty
overwhelming in the "3 SHOTS OR FEWER" and "1 DIRECTION" categories --
especially when we consider that the number of witnesses included in
these polls is a triple-digit number:
Ben Holmes
WhiskyJoe says...
>
>
>> the Witnesses vs. the LN theorists
>
>It's not the Witnesses vs. The LN theorists.
>It's really the Witnesses vs. the Witnesses.
>There is wild disagreement among the witnesses.
Actually, it *IS* the LNT'ers versus the evidence... the eyewitnesses simply
don't support a LNT'er theory, and that's why you cannot accept any eyewitness
accounts.
Nor is there "wild disagreement" - that's simply spin on your part.
The evidence isn't something that LNT'ers like at all - indeed, they run from
explaining the evidence in reasonable, non-conspiratorial terms. (as the "45
Questions", and "Facts LNT'ers Just HATE" demonstrate so well...)
>Were there 2, 3, 4 or more shots?
How many shots can explain the known eyewitness statements?
>Many thought all the shots came from roughly the
>TSBD direction. Many thought all the shots came
>from roughly the Grassy Knoll direction.
And you can't explain this fact in terms of the WCR's theory.
>Many thought the last two shots were closer
>together. Many thought the last two shots were
>right on top of each other. Many others thought
>the shots were evenly spaced apart
Methinks you're lying here...
>or that the
>first two were closer together. And since a
>rifle shot doesn't make one sound "Bang" but
>two distinct sounds "Crack-Thump", it's easy
>to see why many witnesses would think there
>were two shots right on top of each other.
Then everyone should have been reporting *SIX* closely spaced shots. Nor have
you any explanation for those earwitnesses who were experienced and familiar
with firearms.
>The "Crack" from the supersonic bullet
>followed by the "Thump" from the muzzle blast.
>And the "Crack-Thump" would be most distinct
>for the final shot, where the bullet traveled
>the farthest and the two sounds would arrive
>the furthest apart, up to 0.1 seconds apart
>for some witnesses, which might cause one to
>detect as two different sounds.
>
>The witnesses don't tell a consistent Pro LN
>theory nor a Pro CT theory. They don't tell
>any consistent story at all. Like typical
>witnesses, they are like the blind men who
>try to describe the same elephant.
You *can't* accept anything else... otherwise, your theory falls apart.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ben Holmes
Learn to Make Money with a Website - http://www.burningknife.com
WhiskyJoe
> Nellie Connally is demonstrably one of the
> worst, perhaps the worst witness we have
> from DP. Nothing she tells us is remotely
> Zapruder's camera, tells us.
Yes, but to CTers, that is what makes her a
great witness.
Another reason she is a great witness, she is the
only one who says she saw JFK get wounded before
Connally. The fact that she was looking forward,
and not at either man, while both JFK and Connally
are clearly reacting to their wounds in the Z220s
and Z230s, does not matter. Her eyewitness
testimony proves that she was a great witness.
Gordon Arnold was the Claude Rains of Dealey Plaza.
He has a great story of bullets buzzing over his
head and crying agents taking his camera, but
neither he nor the crying agents show up on any
of the films which is impossible if he is telling
the truth. But his story makes him a great witness.
Ed Hoffman was deaf and mute and two hundred
yards away (according to him), changed his story
radically and probably was not even there.
But even if he was blind as well, his account
elevates him to the level of a great witness.
So the mere fact that Nellie was not looking in
the right direction, which effective makes her
blind, still proves that JFK and Connally were
not wounded in the Z220s.
**************************************************
As an aside, Nellie was not the worst witness.
She was at least there. Ed Hoffman is worse.
Gordon Arnold is even worst than Arnold.
And probably the worst witness was the guy who
testified to an incredulous Arlen Specter that
he saw JFK's plane arrive at Love field, caught
a bus to downtown Dallas and waited an hour or
two at Dealey Plaza and saw the motorcade pass
by and saw a gun barrel sticking out of a window.
The fact that he is a largely Pro LN witness does
not matter. He is the worst witness.
Robert Harris
<4545651e-ceae-43f1...@o15g2000pra.googlegroups.com>,
WhiskyJoe <jr...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > the Witnesses vs. the LN theorists
>
> It's not the Witnesses vs. The LN theorists.
> It's really the Witnesses vs. the Witnesses.
No it isn't.
The WC stated that "most" witnesses recalled a single shot, a delay and
then closely bunched shots at the end of the attack.
Even more importantly, that's what the limo passengers said as well. And
we can easily view the sequence of events that took place during the
shooting, including their obvious reactions to the shot at frame 285.
Alvarez confirmed that Greer and Zapruder were startled by that "noise"
at 285 but looking at stills, he apparently didn't realize that every
other nonvictim in the limo reacted at the same instant that they did.
But this was no siren, Whiskey. It was exactly what the people said, who
reacted then.
The natural presumption that you or anyone else should have, is that
this was a gunshot. If it was anything else, then that would have been
an outrageously unlikely fluke, since they were in the middle of a
shooting.
And the fact that they all SAID it was a gunshot, makes this beyond all
doubt, reasonable or otherwise.
Robert Harris
yeuhd
> shattering sound levels of the shock waves and muzzle blasts following
> those shots that came from high powered rifles.
So ear shattering that most people were still smiling, waving, and
applauding up to the moment of the head shot.
Robert Harris
<4896d8c5-775e-4681...@r11g2000vbc.googlegroups.com>,
bigdog <jecorb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Of course you won't. You can't, without admitting that Oswald couldn't
have fired all the shots.
So, instead of talking about the facts and evidence, you are going to
talk about Robert Harris.
> because you comprise a cult of one who believes in such nonsense
ROFLMAO!
Unfortunately, my "cult" has grown a bit, with over 50,000 viewers of
the presentation giving me almost perfect ratings.
This is rather pathetic way to evade the issues, bigdog. It tells us
exactly how badly you want to find the truth.
Robert Harris
WhiskyJoe
>> Furthermore, we can easily see when those
>> people were exposed to the ear shattering
>> sound levels of the shock waves and muzzle
>> blasts following those shots that came from
>> high powered rifles.
yehud:
> So ear shattering that most people were still
> smiling, waving, and applauding up to the moment
> of the head shot.
That is correct. Bob ear shattering blast
at Z285, recorded by the small camera jiggle
at Z291 that Alvarez first noticed was so ear
shattering it caused people to do strange,
unexplainable things.
* It caused Brehm to continue clapping as if
nothing had happened.
* It caused Jean Hill shift her gaze and to
start tracking one of the motorcycle policemen
and continue tracking him as she disappeared
from the Zapruder film. Years later she claimed
she knew the policeman and was interested in him
as a possible boyfriend. Since she was looking
at him instead of JFK, I find this pretty
believable.
* And it caused Greer to stopped looking
backwards and to resume watching where he
was driving.
It is important to realize that any kind of
movement or non movement during the Z290's,
is either a reaction to the ear shattering
blast, or is a person who is frozen in fear.
yeuhd
> he likened to a pair of sonic booms.
So loud that not one of the "four" shots is audible on the Dictabelt
recording supposedly made from an open microphone in Dealey Plaza.
r2bz...@sbcglobal.net
***Whoa, Nellie.
Nellie sad she heard a shot and turned to see JFK as he appeared after
he was wounded. In the best witness, the Zapruder film, that is
exactly what occurred, Kennedy was wounded and Nellie was seen turning
to look at him. The star film maker, Mr. Zapruder, also said that he
heard a shot and saw JFK behave as he did after he was wounded.
***Ron Judge
Robert Harris
<df4b5a58-74f1-48df...@b33g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,
yeuhd <needle...@gmail.com> wrote:
What a stupid argument.
The dictabelt recording was made long after the shooting ended.
Robert Harris
Jason Burke
Not according to everyone's favorite fool Blubaugh!
yeuhd
> In article
> <df4b5a58-74f1-48df-b3df-3baa3f729...@b33g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,
>
> yeuhd <needleswax...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Apr 21, 1:31 pm, Robert Harris <bobharri...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > Roy Kellerman heard one "noise" and then a rapid "flurry" of shots which
> > > he likened to a pair of sonic booms.
>
> > So loud that not one of the "four" shots is audible on the Dictabelt
> > recording supposedly made from an open microphone in Dealey Plaza.
>
> What a stupid argument.
>
> The dictabelt recording was made long after the shooting ended.
It's not my claim that the Dictabelt recording was made in Dealey
Plaza. Hence my use of the word "supposedly". But as you are well
aware, the HSCA and numerous conspiracy theorists DO believe it was
recorded in Dealey Plaza during the shooting.