Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss

Debating The John F. Kennedy Assassination (Part 42)

8 views
Skip to first unread message
Message has been deleted

David Von Pein

unread,
Mar 2, 2007, 3:56:14 AM3/2/07
to
DEBATING THE JFK CASE (PART 42):

-----------------------------------------------------------------

SUBJECT -- The JFK Assassination: The Ongoing "Lone Assassin vs.
Conspiracy" Debate.

FEATURED TEXT -- Archived JFK Forum Messages From June 2004, November
2004, December 2004, February 2005, May 2005, September 2005, and
February 2007.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

CTer (A CONSPIRACY THEORIST) -- Witnesses in Dealey Plaza heard the
last two shots so close together that they had to come from different
rifles.

DVP (DAVID VON PEIN) -- Many witnesses did say that about the last two
shots, yes. But there were several witnesses in the very same Plaza
who disagree with such a shot distribution.

Here's a list I compiled of more than half-a-dozen witnesses (located
in various parts of Dealey Plaza, from the east end to the west) who
think the shots were "Evenly Spaced":

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/4b5aac8c04368a9d

-------------------------------------------

CTer -- You seem to overlook one critical point. There are many of us
who believe it was a conspiracy who have to battle the same CTers who
promote the wacky theories.

DVP -- So what? Why is this a "critical" point? To date, there has not
been one single, solitary conspiracy theory ("wacky" or otherwise)
that cannot be knocked down and reconciled into an "LN" scenario
utilizing sound logic and common sense -- which are two of the main
character features of Vincent Bugliosi, whose upcoming JFK book will
soundly destroy every major conspiracy theory placed on the table to
date.

-------------------------------------------

DVP (November 10, 2004) -- On February 5, 1992, while discussing the
idiocies of Oliver Stone's then-recently-released motion picture,
"JFK", Vince Bugliosi was quoted by the Gannett News Service:

"I'm certainly satisfied, beyond all doubt, that Oswald acted alone.
The Warren Commission might not have done much work, but its staff was
prodigious. He {Oliver Stone} deliberately twisted and warped the
record. .... There was nothing mysterious about Oswald's shots. The
first was from only 57 yards, the second from only 83 yards; all were
fired at a stagnant target with a favorable angle. My firearms guy
says he was a sitting duck." -- VB

To repeat Mr. Bugliosi's short, but telling, 1992 comment:

"I'M CERTAINLY SATISFIED, BEYOND ALL DOUBT, THAT OSWALD ACTED ALONE."

I would certainly think that this type of confidence in Oswald's lone
guilt by someone with Vincent Bugliosi's excellent reputation would
give more than a few CTers sweaty palms. It should for sure. If I were
on the "CT Dark Side", I know I'd begin to question the various CTs if
Mr. B. was firmly anchored on the LN side of the fence.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/37e25b10c50ea468

-------------------------------------------

CTer -- Perhaps because the 'patsy' had escaped the TSBD and shooting
a policeman would draw the police to Oak Cliff.

DVP -- Not one CTer seems to realize how utterly stupid and inane (and
insane) the type of "Patsy" plot that many/most CTers actually believe
would have been from a Pre-November 22 standpoint.

This is the "Plot" that most CTers seem to swallow whole without
bothering to ask the needed question of "How in the hell could this
possibly have been pulled off?".

The JFK assassination "Plan"/"Plot" endorsed by Oliver Stone and Jim
Garrison (among many others):

Let's "frame" Lee Harvey Oswald for the killing of BOTH John Kennedy
and J.D. Tippit -- and we'll do it with a PRE-ARRANGED plan of using
MULTIPLE SHOOTERS, in the front and in the rear, in Dealey Plaza --
meaning that we'll almost certainly need to alter tons of evidence
after the shooting, so as to eliminate all these bullets that are
drilling JFK from the various non-Sniper's Nest locations.

While, at the same time, we (the proverbial architects of this
cockeyed plot) will not even be keeping a wary eye on our resident
"patsy" named Lee Oswald (who is apparently left free to roam the
Depository at will, to be seen by God knows how many non-conspirators,
which will provide Oswald, our ONE and ONLY patsy, with the alibi
he'll require after 12:30 PM on 11/22/63).

Next -- We'll let our one and only patsy escape the shooting scene
immediately after the assassination (when we could just as easily have
killed him right after he exited the TSBD or, better yet, "stage" his
suicide right in the SN window). But no...we'd MUCH rather make the
post-12:30 operation much more complicated and intriguing by allowing
Oswald out of our sight yet again.

Then -- We'll "frame" Oswald for yet a second murder he never
committed by setting him up for J.D. Tippit's slaying on Tenth Street
IN FRONT OF A GOB OF WITNESSES!

A fabulously-bright idea, yet again, huh? Nobody'll catch on to this
little diversion of killers on 10th St., now will they? Of course not.
Because this particular "Dream Team" of "Plotters/Assassins/Bigshots"
are INCAPABLE of being caught or uncovered. Couldn't EVER happen; even
though multiple WITNESSES are at the second murder scene WATCHING
OSWALD (oops, make that the "Imposter Oswald") kill Officer J.D.
Tippit.

We'll get yet another "Oswald Look-alike" to gun down Tippit, then
we'll (somehow) get about a dozen different witnesses to all lie under
oath when they I.D. Oswald as the ONLY killer of Tippit, or as the
ONLY man they saw flee the murder scene.

These plotters were amazing at persuasion I guess, getting gobs of
different citizens, who have no reason to want to frame an innocent
man that they've never seen before in their lives. But I guess, per
CTer accounts, that's EXACTLY what the conspirators/plotters managed
to pull off, WITHOUT A SINGLE DISSENTING WITNESS TO MAKE THIS
BRILLIANT PLAN BACKFIRE. Truly remarkable.

Then -- Somehow (who knows how) the plotters were able to "plant" the
Tippit murder gun ON OSWALD HIMSELF in the Texas Theater before police
arrived there.

Even if only ONE bullet shell was tied to Oswald's .38 revolver (and
of course there were actually four tied to it), that would have been
enough to tie Oswald to the murder of Tippit.

How the plotters managed to get the real Oswald to attempt to kill a
policeman within the theater using the SAME gun that killed Tippit
half-an-hour earlier might be the most remarkable sleight-of-hand feat
yet by these crackerjack, never-heard-of-the-word-'impossible'
plotters. (Even a bit better than having a perfect Oswald imposter up
in the TSBD pretending to fire a rifle at JFK, to be seen by Mr.
Brennan, and other witnesses, who said it was Oswald or somebody who
looked exactly like Oswald up in that window.)

How many Oswald look-alikes were being employed in November 1963 down
at "ASSASSINS FOR ALL OCCASIONS, INC."?

But the biggest question for CTers to ask themselves is a question I
have never ever heard satisfactorily and believably answered....and
that is:

WHY IN THE HELL WOULD ANY PROFESSIONAL PLOTTERS CONCOCT A MULTI-
SHOOTER "PATSY" PLOT TO RUB OUT THE PRESIDENT, AND THEN EXPECT ALL THE
PIECES OF EVIDENCE IN THE ENTIRE CASE TO FALL BACK ON OSWALD'S
SHOULDERS? (Especially when an alternate plan of employing just a
single rear gunman who was highly skilled at "pro hits" would have
easily gotten the job done just as well.)

Does any CTer truly believe that a multi-shooter "Frame The Patsy
Named Oswald" plan was really a wise and workable plan (pre-11/22)?

If you answer "Yes" to the above inquiry, you're in need of gray-
matter treatment of some kind. Because only an utter FOOL would PRE-
PLAN a professional assassination in such a reckless and outright
foolhardy manner.

And that, IMO, is one of the main reasons to know for a fact that NO
PATSY PLOT of that nature (which is widely accepted as FACT by a large
number of conspiracy theorists worldwide) never occurred in the first
place -- nor would it ever even have been CONSIDERED for even one
second prior to November 22nd, 1963.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/30f318ea48653a72

-------------------------------------------

CTer -- I believe that Groden accepts the Don Thomas analysis of the
acoustical evidence, which has five shots.

DVP -- That's not even close to what Robert J. Groden purports in his
1993 book "The Killing Of A President".

You've probably got that book....just LOOK! Groden postulates 8 to 10
gunshots, with ZERO of them likely coming from the "Oswald window" in
the Texas School Book Depository.

He claims that one shot is a "maybe" from the TSBD Sniper's Nest
("Shot #4 into JFK's back") -- but even that one he says "more likely"
came from the Dal-Tex Building.

Hysterical stuff there.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/discussions/start-thread.html/ref=cm_rdp_dp/002-2065385-6525668?ie=UTF8&ASIN=0140240039&authorID=A1FDW1SPYKB354&store=yourstore&reviewID=R39QVLDORM057K&displayType=ReviewDetail

-------------------------------------------

CTer -- David Lifton was the ONLY one who believed that absolutely no
shots came from behind.

DVP -- I never said Groden had NO shots coming from "behind" -- I said
he purports NO SNIPER'S NEST SHOTS (and he doesn't, in his book TKOAP
at any rate).

He's got plenty of REAR shots, sure -- from the Dal-Tex (multiple
ones, despite the fact that no one specifically pointed to that
location as a source of gunfire).

And Groden has two or three shots coming from the WEST end of the Book
Depository. But he thinks that it is likely that no shots came from
the SN on the EAST end of the TSBD....which is totally ludicrous,
especially given the testimony of 5th-Floor Depository witnesses
Harold Norman, Bonnie Ray Williams, and James Jarman. (Plus other
witnesses, such as Howard Brennan, Amos Euins, and Robert Jackson.)

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/m_j_russ/norman.htm

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/brennan.htm

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/m_j_russ/jackson.htm

-------------------------------------------

CTer -- It's quite easy to control the evidence when you are in charge
of the evidence. Evidence can be destroyed. Evidence can be made to
disappear. It's quite easy when everything is secret.

DVP -- That's a typical CT answer -- everything is faked, and
disappears conveniently without any non-plotters noticing a thing or
just not talking, blah-blah--yuck!

Main point here -- The bullets from any non-LHO guns that would have
been (potentially) INSIDE JFK'S BODY (and any other possible limo
victims) could not possibly have been immediately hidden from the
Parkland Hospital staff.

If you think all of the bullets and/or fragments could just go bye-bye
in a heartbeat within minutes of the shooting, you're either crazy or
you're Barbara Eden (with the ability to "blink" the bullets into a
cornfield somewhere).

-------------------------------------------

CTer -- I might remind you that it is one of your own, Mark Fuhrman,
who proposes that the bullet deflected up and out of the throat to
then hit the {limousine's} chrome topping.

DVP -- I'm fully aware of Mr. Fuhrman's anti-SBT theory. And he's dead
wrong...for many reasons. Here's precisely why he is wrong.....

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/4c7616a35ac60e22

-------------------------------------------

CTer -- LNers repeat their baseless conclusion about {the JFK jacket}
"bunch" over and over and over and never offer a single fact to back
it up. They can't. Their "bunch fallacy" is absurd.

DVP -- Nonsense. Kennedy's jacket was obviously bunched up, causing
the discrepancy in the "alignment" of the bullet holes. To believe
anything else is to climb the ladder of absurdity to its top
rung...and then jump off.

ONE hole in jacket + ONE hole in JFK's back = The same ONE bullet
passed through BOTH that one jacket hole and that one back hole.
Period.

The conspiracy buffs cannot explain any kind of ALTERNATIVE scenario
to the "bunched-up" theory in any type of logical and believable and
sensible fashion.

Lacking a "bunched" coat, the CTers are forced to invent tales of a
fake autopsy photo, which is a picture that was declared genuine by
multiple panels of experts. (Are they ALL liars?)

What other choice is there? A SECOND shot to John F. Kennedy's back?
Which makes no sense either...because there's just the ONE hole in the
jacket? So was the jacket "faked" too?

Plus -- If the back shot to JFK did not exit his throat -- where did
the bullet go? And why didn't it cause substantial damage to JFK's
innards upon being stopped dead in its tracks? How was this possible?

CTers have no avenue of escape here...because ANY theory they
postulate is 50 times more illogical, undoable, and absurd than the
simple explanation of JFK's coat being hiked up a bit as he was being
shot through the back by Lee Harvey Oswald's Bullet #CE399.

"Occam's" is in the dictionary for a reason. I've often wondered why
the CTers of the world won't use it a little more often.

~~~~~~~~

A still frame from the George Jefferies Film:
http://216.122.129.112/dc/user_files/10222.jpg

The Robert Croft Photo (showing JFK on Elm Street):
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/uploads/post-1084-1154280771.jpg

~~~~~~~~

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/7f44c24bac057c54

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/fa03a6cc38cf6c7c

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/bf3ae3c6c0993e13

-------------------------------------------

CTer -- A bullet does not have to cause substantial damage to innards
when it stops dead in its tracks. It is possible and it has happened
often.

DVP -- Quantify that statement please. Shoot some people up and see if
you can get a WCC/MC/FMJ bullet moving at approximately 2000 fps to
stop inside a person's back/neck without having that bullet hit any
"bony protuberances" en route, AND without leaving many fragments
behind in its wake.

And then try doing it TWICE to the very same victim -- which is what
is really required in this (JFK) case. Because doing it just once
ain't gonna cut it. You need TWO bullets like that to vanish inside
JFK, while causing no damage.

Good luck. (Times two.)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/discussionboard/discussion.html/ref=cm_rdp_st_rd/002-2065385-6525668?ie=UTF8&ASIN=0060198494&store=yourstore&cdThread=TxNAB5QRHN187B&reviewID=RKSOWSBHINZSJ&displayType=ReviewDetail

0 new messages