Tippit Timelines
David Von Pein
Date: 9/24/2007
=======================================
A CTer SAID:
>>> "VB is disingenuous re. the Tippit murder--I could call it deceptive. In his chronology, VB states that it was a man named Bowley who called the police dispatcher at about 1:16 p.m. about the murder of Tippit. But you will never see (at least in the book itself--I have not checked the Endnotes) that Bowley says he checked his watch when he arrived at the scene and it was 1:10 p.m." <<<
Vince Bugliosi covers the Bowley "1:10" timing in the book's extensive
"Endnotes" section. Many, many very good VB arguments are made within
the Endnotes on the CD-ROM, so those notes are essential reading in
order to get the complete "VB-authored" picture.
For some reason, though, some readers just flat-out refuse to explore
the 900+ pages of Endnotes on the CD-ROM. (Laziness, I would surmise.)
And then those same readers think that VB hasn't covered all the
bases...when, in actuality, he very likely has touched those bases on
the CD-ROM disc.
I've looked up the "Bowley" material on the CD, and here's what we
have.....
"For years, critics have cited T.F. Bowley's affidavit on December 2,
1963, that when he saw Tippit lying on the street next to the left
front of his car, he looked at his watch "and it said 1:10 p.m." (CE
2003, 24 H 202). So the murder happened at 1:10, or even earlier they
say, making it even more difficult for Oswald to have been the killer.
"Of course, even if Bowley is correct, and Tippit was killed at 1:10
or earlier, it would be irrelevant, since we know Oswald killed him.
How he managed to get there on time to do it would only have academic
value. If we didn't know (by reference to the testimony of many
eyewitnesses and firearms evidence) that Oswald killed Tippit, then
Bowley's affidavit would be more relevant. But even then we can't be
sure at all that Bowley was accurate.
"Apart from the improbability that with an officer lying apparently
mortally wounded on the ground, Bowley would want to look at his
watch, we don't know that Bowley's watch was not off by several
minutes, as so many watches are.
"Just one example among countless others: We know the assassination
took place at 12:30 p.m., yet a Dealey Plaza witness, Mrs. Phillip
Willis, said she looked at her watch and "it was 12:35 p.m." (CD 1245,
p.44, FBI interview of Mrs. Willis on June 17, 1964).
"Indeed, if we're going to resort to citing Bowley for when the murder
happened, we can't pick and choose, and Bowley, in the same affidavit,
says that the first thing he did at the scene was to try to help
Tippit, and he suggests that while he was doing this, Benavides was
trying to operate the police radio but couldn't, so he did.
"But we know from Dallas police radio dispatch records that Benavides
didn't start trying to operate the police radio until 1:16 p.m. (which
would prove that Bowley's watch was five to six minutes off), and
Bowley established contact with the police close to 1:18 p.m." -- VB;
Pages 51-52 of "RH" Endnotes
===================
I also took note of this good (and related) observation by VB
regarding Helen Markham's "1:06" timeline for the Tippit murder (which
CTers love to prop up like it was the "Holy Grail Of Timelines")......
"Markham is so confused on the timing that after she gave her
affidavit on the afternoon of Tippit's murder, she told an FBI agent
that the shooting of Tippit took place "around 1:30 p.m." (Interview
of Helen Markham by FBI agent Bardwell D. Odum on November 22, 1963)"
-- VB; Page 52 of "RH" Endnotes
===================
THE MURDER OF DALLAS POLICE OFFICER J.D. TIPPIT (PART 1):
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/cbcca847390ffca8
THE MURDER OF DALLAS POLICE OFFICER J.D. TIPPIT (PART 2):
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/3959008382f45641
THE TIPPIT MURDER AND THE HILARIOUS DEFENSE OF LEE HARVEY OSWALD:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/85fe573544d89f90
Walt
> Subject: Tippit, Bowley, & Bugliosi (And Markham)
> Date: 9/24/2007
>
> =======================================
>
> A CTer SAID:
>
> >>> "VB is disingenuous re. the Tippit murder--I could call it deceptive. In his chronology, VB states that it was a man named Bowley who called the police dispatcher at about 1:16 p.m. about the murder of Tippit. But you will never see (at least in the book itself--I have not checked the Endnotes) that Bowley says he checked his watch when he arrived at the scene and it was 1:10 p.m." <<<
>
> Vince Bugliosi covers the Bowley "1:10" timing in the book's extensive
> "Endnotes" section. Many, many very good VB arguments are made within
> the Endnotes on the CD-ROM, so those notes are essential reading in
> order to get the complete "VB-authored" picture.
>
> For some reason, though, some readers just flat-out refuse to explore
> the 900+ pages of Endnotes on the CD-ROM. (Laziness, I would surmise.)
> And then those same readers think that VB hasn't covered all the
> bases...when, in actuality, he very likely has touched those bases on
> the CD-ROM disc.
>
> I've looked up the "Bowley" material on the CD, and here's what we
> have.....
>
> "For years, critics have cited T.F. Bowley's affidavit on December 2,
> 1963, that when he saw Tippit lying on the street next to the left
> front of his car, he looked at his watch "and it said 1:10 p.m." (CE
> 2003, 24 H 202). So the murder happened at 1:10, or even earlier they
> say, making it even more difficult for Oswald to have been the killer.
Logic ..... When Bowley arrived at 1:10 JD Tippit was already dead,
and lying in the street. Since Bowley said nothing about seeing any
of the activity that all other witnesses reported ( the fleeing of the
killer) then it's logical that the shooting occurred at least a couple
of minutes before he arrived.
>
> "Of course, even if Bowley is correct, and Tippit was killed at 1:10
> or earlier, it would be irrelevant, since we know Oswald killed him.
The above statements serves as "logic" for a moron...... It reminds
me of a idiot who says... " I know 2+2=5, so the fact that you're
holding up two fingers on each hand is irrelevant."
Walt
curtjester1
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Walt, and they have to go out on a limb for wayward watches when all
the other guesstimate of times are in cohesive logic of such a time.
There is the arrival of the ambulance, the dropping off of Oswald
practically a half-mile from his roominghouse, the time of the
roominghouse lady, the exact time of Markham in testimony versus her
daily routine of catching a bus. Then there is Tippit himself. He
doesn't have anybody supporting him from after being in the Record
Store to being on 10th Street and idling for umpteen minutes.
Of course they dare not admit the possibility that he was set up to
have a convenient murder take place for a trail of his arrest. Then
they have to find a way around the testimony that the 'real' LHO was
already in the TT with two giving timelines of him being there at the
time or before the Tippit murder. Then, the resort to a guy like
Bowley to pick on when they forgot about one Roger Craig who looked at
his watch that read 1:06!
CJ
Walt
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Walt, and they have to go out on a limb for wayward watches when all
> the other guesstimate of times are in cohesive logic of such a time.
> There is the arrival of the ambulance, the dropping off of Oswald
> practically a half-mile from his roominghouse, the time of the
> roominghouse lady, the exact time of Markham in testimony versus her
> daily routine of catching a bus. Then there is Tippit himself. He
> doesn't have anybody supporting him from after being in the Record
> Store to being on 10th Street and idling for umpteen minutes.
>
> Of course they dare not admit the possibility that he was set up to
> have a convenient murder take place for a trail of his arrest. Then
> they have to find a way around the testimony that the 'real' LHO was
> already in the TT with two giving timelines of him being there at the
> time or before the Tippit murder. Then, the resort to a guy like
> Bowley to pick on when they forgot about one Roger Craig who looked at
> his watch that read 1:06!
Von Pea Brain CAN"T acknowledge the logic of the chronology
surrounding the murder of J.D.Tippit because to do so would be an
admission that Oswald was in fact a patsy. In addittion to the
witnesses at the scene who said that Tippit was shot BEFORE 1:10, the
radio logs verify the FACT..... And DPD Sargeant Gerald Hill testified
that he was standing on the curb in front of the TSBD at 1:06 when he
heard a citizen using a police radio report that a policeman had been
shot on tenth street in Oak cliff.
Try as he will Pea Brain can't HONESTLY get around those FACTS.
Walt
>
> CJ- Hide quoted text -
David Von Pein
regarding Tippit's murder (which was so obviously committed by Walt's
boyfriend, Lee Harvey).
But Walt thinks the Bowley/Markham timelines are written in
stone....and nothing will ever change his rock-hard mind about this
subject.
Even remarks like this made by his "1:06" witness won't have any
effect on Walt The Kook (I wonder why this "around 1:30" timeline is
never propped up by any CT-Kooks?).......
"Markham is so confused on the timing that after she gave her
affidavit on the afternoon of Tippit's murder, she told an FBI agent
that the shooting of Tippit took place "around 1:30 p.m." (Interview
of Helen Markham by FBI agent Bardwell D. Odum on November 22, 1963)"
-- Vince Bugliosi in "RH"
Walt
Someone is lying....... When Helen Markham wrote her affidavit
immediately after the shooting of Tippit she SPECIFICALLY gave the
time of the shooting in her opening sentence. She wrote that she had
seen the policeman shot at about 1:06. She was so sure of the time
of the shooting that she recorded that time in the very first sentence
of her affidavit. I wouldn't be surprised if she later gave a
different time to the FBI..... Many of the statements that the FBI
attribute to witnesses are not accurate... Whether that is due to FBI
intimidation, and putting words in witnesses mouths, or just outright
lies by the FBI who knows?????..... It is a FACT that the FBI
statements are often contrary to what the witnesses actually said.
Walt
tomnln
There is NO Citation for Markham saying 1:30.
"David Von Pein" <davev...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1190755572.5...@n39g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
tomnln
That's what they printed in the 26 volumes.
http://whokilledjfk.net/tippit.htm
Read it & Weep.
"Walt" <papakoc...@evertek.net> wrote in message
news:1190759196....@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
David Von Pein
I thought that might get Tom's panties in a bind. And it should.
I, myself, haven't seen a copy of that Odum interview with Markham
that is cited by Bugliosi in his book....but I have absolutely ZERO
doubts (given Mr. Bugliosi's credibility) that such an interview
actually did take place, with Markham saying just exactly what Mr.
Bugliosi has QUOTED her as telling Bardwell Odum on 11/22/63.
Bugliosi has placed quotation marks around the words "around 1:30
p.m.", so that's an EXACT quote from Odum's Nov. 22 report re. his
interview with Markham. Without a shred of a doubt.
Naturally, since Tom-Sack-Kook hasn't seen this precise quote
attributed by Odum to Markham, it must mean (per the kook named
Doubting Thomas) that Bugliosi "lied" through his teeth.
Tom's quick to drag out that word "lied", as we all know. Such is the
thought process of a Mega-Kook like Mr. Rossley.
Tom actually must think that VB has just MADE UP FROM WHOLE CLOTH that
"around 1:30 p.m." quote attributed to Markham by B. Odum.
But wouldn't that be a pretty outlandish and stupid thing for Vince to
do, Tom (especially with kooks like you poring over every square inch
of this case every day of the week)? Do you REALLY think Vince would
stoop to putting words (via quotation marks!!) in somebody's mouth
that were never really uttered by that person at all?
If Tom-Sack does truly believe VB would stoop to such a vile tactic,
then Tom has reached the lofty, heretofore-unreachable zenith level of
"ICONIC KOOK".
Let's look at VB's book passage once again, and watch Tom R. squirm a
little more......
"Markham is so confused on the timing that after she gave her
affidavit on the afternoon of Tippit's murder, she told an FBI agent
that the shooting of Tippit took place "around 1:30 p.m." (Interview
of Helen Markham by FBI agent Bardwell D. Odum on November 22, 1963)"
Walt
Without a doubt either Bardwell Odum or Vince Bugilosio lied about
What helen Markham said.....She put the time of Tippit's shooting in
WRITING!. THAT is proof that she knew what time the shooting occured.
aeffects
Dave this is getting pathetic, damn sure embarrassing for the Lone Nut
crowd
tomnln
The Warren Commission chose to publish Markham's timing as 1:06.
http://whokilledjfk.net/tippit.htm
Are you Finally Denouncing the Warren Report?
"David Von Pein" <davev...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1190764008.3...@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
>>>> "Bugliosi lied. There is NO Citation for Markham saying 1:30." <<<
>
> I thought that might get Tom's panties in a bind. And it should.
>
> I, myself, haven't seen a copy of that Odum interview with Markham
> that is cited by Bugliosi in his book....but I have absolutely ZERO
> doubts that such an interview actually did take place, with Markham
> saying just exactly what Mr. Bugliosi has QUOTED her as telling
> Bardwell Odum on 11/22/63.
>
> Bugliosi has placed quotation marks around the words "around 1:30
> p.m.", so that's an EXACT quote from Odum's Nov. 22 report re. his
> interview with Markham. Without a shred of a doubt.
>
> Naturally, since Tom-Sack-Kook hasn't seen this precise quote
> attributed by Odum to Markham, it must mean (per the kook named
> Doubting Thomas) that Bugliosi "lied" through his teeth.
>
> Tom's quick to drag out that word "lied", as we all know. Such is the
> thought process of a Mega-Kook like Mr. Rossley.
>
> Let's look at VB's book passage once again, and watch Tom R. squirm a
> little more......
>
> "Markham is so confused on the timing that after she gave her
> affidavit on the afternoon of Tippit's murder, she told an FBI agent
> that the shooting of Tippit took place "around 1:30 p.m." (Interview
> of Helen Markham by FBI agent Bardwell D. Odum on November 22, 1963)"
tomnln
"aeffects" <aeff...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1190771610.5...@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
David Von Pein
It's hilarious the way Tom-Kook props up the WR when it suits him.
Otherwise, the ENTIRE Report is worthy of only toilet paper.
Nice.
BTW, where exactly in the WR does the WC "publish" Markham's 1:06
timing? (Not counting her verbatim testimony/transcript in a
supporting volume, of course. Or is that what you're talking about?)
David Von Pein
Geena, Barbara, or Virginia?
(Kook.)
tomnln
You don't know the difference between the Report & the 26 Volumes?
You've known for YEARS it's in the 26 Volumes.
SEE it here Again.>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/tippit.htm
Choke on it.
"David Von Pein" <davev...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1190782917.1...@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
tomnln
Wanna comment on the Tippit shells coming from 3 different weapons?>>>
http://whokilledjfk.net/tippit.htm
"David Von Pein" <davev...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1190783024....@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
David Von Pein
And just exactly HOW does Mrs. Markham's "approx. 1:06" in-writing
comment in her affidavit somehow mean that it was absolutely
IMPOSSIBLE for her to also tell Odum (sometime later on Nov. 22) that
the murder occurred "around 1:30 PM"?
Quite obviously (except to a conspiracy kook who wants to exonerate
LHO for some silly reason), Markham could have provided BOTH of the
above timelines.
Of course, the whole "LET'S TRY TO SOLVE THIS MURDER VIA THE TIMELINE
WITNESSES" way of approaching the Tippit murder is ridiculous anyway,
rendering BOTH of Markham's times (1:06 and 1:30) pretty much moot and
meaningless....since Markham SAW WITH HER OWN EYES A MAN NAMED LEE
HARVEY OSWALD KILL OFFICER TIPPIT.
But what Vince Bugliosi's book passage re. Odum & Markham does
illustrate is that Mrs. Markham was certainly a bit confused about the
exact time she saw a murder on Tenth Street on November 22.
tomnln
Until then, you're STUCK with Markham's 1:06.
http://whokilledjfk.net/tippit.htm
"David Von Pein" <davev...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1190784048....@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
David Von Pein
Cite one PROVABLE example please. (And then you can work on citing
many additional examples after the first provable one, in order to
support your grossly-overstated term "often" via your above post.)
Get crackin', kook.
David Von Pein
Sure, I know it's in the volumes. I even said that very thing in my
last post re. this matter. But you didn't clarify if you meant
"Volumes" or the 888-page main "Report".
But, of course, Markham's EXACT, VERBATIM WORDS are going to appear in
the 26 volumes as to what she testified to, Mr. Duh!
That, in fact, is just further proof that the WC was not going around
putting words in witnesses' mouths or changing the transcript of the
verbatim testimony provided by certain witnesses, like Mrs. Markham.
But Markham ALSO said "around 1:30 p.m." to Bardwell Odum the same
day. That's as ironclad as ironclad can get.....because I'd trust
Vincent Bugliosi with my life (especially when he places QUOTATION
MARKS around a particular passage he has written in a book of his).
So, go choke on "1:30" for a while, you old fossil.
David Von Pein
Mr. Bugliosi already did (with a source citation leading to Odum's
11/22 interview of Markham AND quotation marks around the key phrase
in question, which makes it as good as Gospel in my book...and in VB's
"RH" book too). ......
"Markham is so confused on the timing that after she gave her
affidavit on the afternoon of Tippit's murder, she told an FBI agent
that the shooting of Tippit took place "around 1:30 p.m." (Interview
of Helen Markham by FBI agent Bardwell D. Odum on November 22, 1963)"
-- VB; Page 52 of "RH" Endnotes
Choke on it, you murderer-supporting Mega-Kook.
David Von Pein
They didn't. The four shells all came from Oswald's very own S&W .38,
and every reasonable non-kook in the world realizes this fact by now.
Great PATSY plan there, btw, huh? Shoot Tippit with a non-Oswald gun
(or THREE guns; as if one wouldn't do at POINT-BLANK range!), and then
scatter--or plant--bullet shells from THREE different weapons at the
murder scene.
Yeah...that'll surely have everybody screaming "IT WAS ONLY OSWALD!"
(Fucking kook.)
tomnln
MY Proof is HERE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/tippit.htm
"David Von Pein" <davev...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1190785244.3...@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
tomnln
Produce the OFFICIAL Odum memo or, you're/VB are LIARS.
My Proof is HERE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/tippit.htm
"David Von Pein" <davev...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1190785541....@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
tomnln
You take the word of an Ambulance-Chaser over a man who "Taught at
Quantico".
You're a Bigger FOOL than we thought.
http://whokilledjfk.net/tippit.htm
"David Von Pein" <davev...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1190785708....@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
David Von Pein
Well, not really. In addition to the Bardwell Odum "around 1:30 p.m."
interview, we have Markham's statement given to the Secret Service
(dated December 2, 1963), in which she implies that the murder
occurred at "approx. 1:00 P.M.". That comes via Commission Document
#87 (Page 557), linked below.....
www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10490&relPageId=557
So, as we can see, Mrs. Markham's timeline is a little bit
scattered.....1:00, 1:06, 1:30.
Walt
> >>> "The Warren Commission chose to publish Markham's timing as 1:06." <<<
>
> It's hilarious the way Tom-Kook props up the WR when it suits him.
> Otherwise, the ENTIRE Report is worthy of only toilet paper.
Duh...... As with any lie.... If it to be plausible, believable lie
must contain some truthful information.
That's the way it is with the Warren Report.... It contains many solid
facts, but more often than not the facts are then twisted to make
Oswald the guilty party.
Why don't you try reading the twenty six volumes of actual records,
and compare them to what the liars published in the Warren Report.
Many highly educated, and intelligent, people have done that and
concluded that the Warren Report is a sham. You think you are
intelligent but you can't be very smart, if you believe a slick
shyster liar like Bugliosi.
Walt
Walt
> >>> "Without a doubt either Bardwell Odum or Vince Bugliosi lied about what Helen Markham said. She put the time of Tippit's shooting in WRITING! THAT is proof that she knew what time the shooting occurred." <<<
>
> And just exactly HOW does Mrs. Markham's "approx. 1:06" in-writing
> comment in her affidavit somehow mean that it was absolutely
> IMPOSSIBLE for her to also tell Odum (sometime later on Nov. 22) that
> the murder occurred "around 1:30 PM"?
Learn to read, asshole..... I said..... "I wouldn't be surprised if
she later gave a different time to the FBI..... Many of the statements
that the FBI attribute to witnesses are not accurate"...
>
> Quite obviously (except to a conspiracy kook who wants to exonerate
> LHO for some silly reason), Markham could have provided BOTH of the
> above timelines.
Duh......
>
> Of course, the whole "LET'S TRY TO SOLVE THIS MURDER VIA THE TIMELINE
> WITNESSES" way of approaching the Tippit murder is ridiculous anyway,
Nonsense..... Suspects are exonerated all the time because the
suspect was verified to have been a mile away when the crime occurred.
> rendering BOTH of Markham's times (1:06 and 1:30) pretty much moot and
> meaningless....since Markham SAW WITH HER OWN EYES A MAN NAMED LEE
> HARVEY OSWALD KILL OFFICER TIPPIT.
Riiiiight!!.... A Lee Oswald that was "short" and "kinda heavy" with
"dark bushy hair"....
Those were the physical characteristics that she used to describe the
man she saw shoot Tippit.
>
> But what Vince Bugliosi's book passage re. Odum & Markham does
> illustrate is that Mrs. Markham was certainly a bit confused about the
> exact time she saw a murder on Tenth Street on November 22.
She wasn't confused.... She was scared to death. She knew the killer
was not Oswald and the cops had warned her that she could be in great
danger because of what she'd seen.
Walt
Walt
FU
Walt
> >>> "You've known for YEARS it's in the 26 Volumes." <<<
>
> Sure, I know it's in the volumes. I even said that very thing in my
> last post re. this matter. But you didn't clarify if you meant
> "Volumes" or the 888-page main "Report".
I do believe that you just acknowledged that the Warren Report is not
an accurate reflection of the record.
curtjester1
> On 25 Sep, 11:44, curtjester1 <curtjest...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 25 Sep, 10:04, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:
>
> > > On 24 Sep, 18:40, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Subject: Tippit, Bowley, & Bugliosi (And Markham)
> > > > Date: 9/24/2007
>
> > > > =======================================
>
> > > > A CTer SAID:
>
> > > > >>> "VB is disingenuous re. the Tippit murder--I could call it deceptive. In his chronology, VB states that it was a man named Bowley who called the police dispatcher at about 1:16 p.m. about the murder of Tippit. But you will never see (at least in the book itself--I have not checked the Endnotes) that Bowley says he checked his watch when he arrived at the scene and it was 1:10 p.m." <<<
>
> > > > Vince Bugliosi covers the Bowley "1:10" timing in the book's extensive
> > > > "Endnotes" section. Many, many very good VB arguments are made within
> > > > the Endnotes on the CD-ROM, so those notes are essential reading in
> > > > order to get the complete "VB-authored" picture.
>
> > > > For some reason, though, some readers just flat-out refuse to explore
> > > > the 900+ pages of Endnotes on the CD-ROM. (Laziness, I would surmise.)
> > > > And then those same readers think that VB hasn't covered all the
> > > > bases...when, in actuality, he very likely has touched those bases on
> > > > the CD-ROM disc.
>
> > > > I've looked up the "Bowley" material on the CD, and here's what we
> > > > have.....
>
> > > > "For years, critics have cited T.F. Bowley's affidavit on December 2,
> > > > 1963, that when he saw Tippit lying on the street next to the left
> > > > front of his car, he looked at his watch "and it said 1:10 p.m." (CE
> > > > 2003, 24 H 202). So the murder happened at 1:10, or even earlier they
> > > > say, making it even more difficult for Oswald to have been the killer.
>
> > > Logic ..... When Bowley arrived at 1:10 JD Tippit was already dead,
> > > and lying in the street. Since Bowley said nothing about seeing any
> > > of the activity that all other witnesses reported ( the fleeing of the
> > > killer) then it's logical that the shooting occurred at least a couple
> > > of minutes before he arrived.
>
> > > > "Of course, even if Bowley is correct, and Tippit was killed at 1:10
> > > > or earlier, it would be irrelevant, since we know Oswald killed him.
>
> > > The above statements serves as "logic" for a moron...... It reminds
> > > me of a idiot who says... " I know 2+2=5, so the fact that you're
> > > holding up two fingers on each hand is irrelevant."
>
> > > Walt
>
> > > > How he managed to get there on time to do it would only have academic
> > > > value. If we didn't know (by reference to the testimony of many
> > > > eyewitnesses and firearms evidence) that Oswald killed Tippit, then
> > > > Bowley's affidavit would be more relevant. But even then we can't be
> > > > sure at all that Bowley was accurate.
>
> > > > "Apart from the improbability that with an officer lying apparently
> > > > mortally wounded on the ground, Bowley would want to look at his
> > > > watch, we don't know that Bowley's watch was not off by several
> > > > minutes, as so many watches are.
>
> > > > "Just one example among countless others: We know the assassination
> > > > took place at 12:30 p.m., yet a Dealey Plaza witness, Mrs. Phillip
> > > > Willis, said she looked at her watch and "it was 12:35 p.m." (CD 1245,
> > > > p.44, FBI interview of Mrs. Willis on June 17, 1964).
>
> > > > "Indeed, if we're going to resort to citing Bowley for when the murder
> > > > happened, we can't pick and choose, and Bowley, in the same affidavit,
> > > > says that the first thing he did at the scene was to try to help
> > > > Tippit, and he suggests that while he was doing this, Benavides was
> > > > trying to operate the police radio but couldn't, so he did.
>
> > > > "But we know from Dallas police radio dispatch records that Benavides
> > > > didn't start trying to operate the police radio until 1:16 p.m. (which
> > > > would prove that Bowley's watch was five to six minutes off), and
> > > > Bowley established contact with the police close to 1:18 p.m." -- VB;
> > > > Pages 51-52 of "RH" Endnotes
>
> > > > ===================
>
> > > > I also took note of this good (and related) observation by VB
> > > > regarding Helen Markham's "1:06" timeline for the Tippit murder (which
> > > > CTers love to prop up like it was the "Holy Grail Of Timelines")......
>
> > > > "Markham is so confused on the timing that after she gave her
> > > > affidavit on the afternoon of Tippit's murder, she told an FBI agent
> > > > that the shooting of Tippit took place "around 1:30 p.m." (Interview
> > > > of Helen Markham by FBI agent Bardwell D. Odum on November 22, 1963)"
> > > > -- VB; Page 52 of "RH" Endnotes
>
>
> > > > THE MURDER OF DALLAS POLICE OFFICER J.D. TIPPIT (PART 1):http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/cbcca847390ffca8
>
> > > > THE MURDER OF DALLAS POLICE OFFICER J.D. TIPPIT (PART 2):http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/3959008382f45641
>
> > > > THE TIPPIT MURDER AND THE HILARIOUS DEFENSE OF LEE HARVEY OSWALD:http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/85fe573544d89f9...quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Walt, and they have to go out on a limb for wayward watches when all
> > the other guesstimate of times are in cohesive logic of such a time.
> > There is the arrival of the ambulance, the dropping off of Oswald
> > practically a half-mile from his roominghouse, the time of the
> > roominghouse lady, the exact time of Markham in testimony versus her
> > daily routine of catching a bus. Then there is Tippit himself. He
> > doesn't have anybody supporting him from after being in the Record
> > Store to being on 10th Street and idling for umpteen minutes.
>
> > Of course they dare not admit the possibility that he was set up to
> > have a convenient murder take place for a trail of his arrest. Then
> > they have to find a way around the testimony that the 'real' LHO was
> > already in the TT with two giving timelines of him being there at the
> > time or before the Tippit murder. Then, the resort to a guy like
> > Bowley to pick on when they forgot about one Roger Craig who looked at
> > his watch that read 1:06!
>
> Von Pea Brain CAN"T acknowledge the logic of the chronology
> surrounding the murder of J.D.Tippit because to do so would be an
> admission that Oswald was in fact a patsy. In addittion to the
> witnesses at the scene who said that Tippit was shot BEFORE 1:10, the
>
radio logs verify the FACT..... And DPD Sargeant Gerald Hill
testified
> that he was standing on the curb in front of the TSBD at 1:06 when he
> heard a citizen using a police radio report that a policeman had been
> shot on tenth street in Oak cliff.
>
They say one learns something everyday. Another nail in the coffin!
> Try as he will Pea Brain can't HONESTLY get around those FACTS.
>
> Walt
>
>
>
>
>
> > CJ- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
tomnln
GIVEN 10 DAYS LATER.
Do you think Oswald could have gotten there by 1:00?
You STILL haven't produced the 1:30 document.
"David Von Pein" <davev...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1190797716.1...@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
j.raymon...@gmail.com
But Markham ALSO said "around 1:30 p.m." to Bardwell Odum the same
day. That's as ironclad as ironclad can get.....because I'd trust
Vincent Bugliosi with my life (especially when he places QUOTATION
MARKS around a particular passage he has written in a book of his).
Actually, Odum's report (CD5 p. 80 - The Gemberling Report) is not
ironclad at all, and that is why it is not mentioned in the Warren
Report. Odum's report is HEARSAY, and compared to Markham's direct
testimony - in her affidavit and in her testimony -- Odum's report is
worthless (and inadmissable) as evidence of the time of the Tippit
murder.
That explains why the Warren Commission did not mention it in their
report. They knew they would have been laughed at. Ball even cited
Odum's report when he questioned Markham, but he did not mention
Odum's claim that she said "possibly around 1:30"
It seems that VB is more unscrupulous than the Warren Commission.
tomnln
(Odum's words NOT Markham's.)
Page 80 states that on 11/25/63 she ID's a photo of Oswald for the FBI while
she was at work.
Will put both pages on my website when I can.
<j.raymon...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1190826883....@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
Walt
CJ here's what Hill actually said during his testimony
When I got toward the back, at this time I heard the freight elevator
moving, and I went back to the back of the building to either catch
the freight elevator or the stairs, and Captain Fritz and his men were
coming up on the elevator.
I told him what we found and pointed out the general area, pointed out
the deputies to them, and told him also that I was going to make sure
the crime lab was en route.
Hill was lying about his reason for leaving the sixth floor.... He
didn't need to leave the sixth floor to " make sure the crime lab was
enroute" ( He was photographed hanging out of a sixth floor window
and talking to the cops down on Elm street in front of the TSBD.) The
reason he left the sixth floor was because he had been told that a cop
had been shot in Oakcliff.
About the time I got to the street, Lieutenant Day from the crime lab
was arriving and walking up toward the front door. I told him that the
area we had found where the shots were fired from was on the sixth
floor on the southeast corner, and that they were guarding the scene
so nobody would touch anything until he got there. And he said, "All
right."
And he went on into the building, and I went over to tell Inspector
Sawyer, who was standing almost directly in front of the building
across the little service drive there at what would actually be Elm
and Houston. About this time I saw a firetruck come up, but I didn't
pay any attention.
I was talking to Inspector Sawyer, telling him what we found, when
Sgt. C. B. Owens of Oak Cliff--he was the senior sergeant out there
that day, and actually acting lieutenant--came up and wanted to know
what' we wanted him to do, being that he had been dispatched to the
scene.
We were standing there with Inspector Sawyer and Assistant District
Attorney Bill Alexander came up to us, and we had been standing there
for a minute when we heard the strange voice on the police radio that
said something to the effect that, if I remember right, either the
first call that came out said that they were in the 400 block of East
Jefferson, and that an officer had been shot, and the voice on the
radio, whoever it was, said he thought he was dead.
That's what Hill said......
Here's what Lt Day said about the time he arrived at the TSBD......
Mr. Day.
I was in the identification bureau at the city hall. About a quarter
of one I was in the basement of the city hall, which is three floors
under me actually I am on the fourth floor--and a rumor swept through
there that the President had been shot.
I returned to my office to get on the radio and wait for the
developments. Shortly before 1 o'clock I received a call from the
police dispatcher to go to 411 Elm Street, Dallas.
Mr. Belin.
Is there any particular building at that particular location?
Mr. Day.
The Texas School Book Depository, I believe is the correct name on
it.
Mr. Belin.
Did you go there?
Mr. Day.
Yes, sir; I went out of my office almost straight up 1 o'clock. I
arrived at the location on Elm about 1:12.
There are photos that were taken at 1:10 that show Lt. J.C. Day
arriving at the TSBD.
And here's what Fritz Said about his arrival.....
Mr. Ball.
Did you go directly to a building?
Mr. Fritz.
Directly to the Texas School Book Depository Building.
Mr. Ball.
What time did you arrive there?
Mr. Fritz.
Well, sir; we arrived there---we arrived at the hospital at 12:45, if
you want that time, and at the scene of the offense at 12:58.
Mr. Ball.
12:58; the Texas School Book Depository Building.
Mr. Fritz.
Yes.
Sgt. Hill had talked to Fritz on his way down to the street.......
Probably a couple of minutes after 1:00.
David Von Pein
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/ad17ef6b8e7524fc
RAY SAID:
>>> "I tracked down Odum's report in Maryferrell.org. It is in CD5 p. 80--The Gemberling Report. Odum's report is HEARSAY, and compared to Markham's direct testimony -- in her affidavit and in her testimony -- Odum's report is worthless (and inadmissable) as evidence of the time of the Tippit murder." <<<
DVP NOW SAYS:
Well OF COURSE it's hearsay. Duh. I know that. But...so the hell
what??
This isn't an official COURT TRIAL, for Pete sake. And Vince
Bugliosi's book isn't an official "trial" either. So what if it's
hearsay? It makes not a lick of difference with respect to these Forum
discussions and with respect to VB putting Odum's words in his JFK
book.
The fact is ("hearsay" or not) that FBI Agent Bardwell Odum DID write
the words "around 1:30 p.m." in a report about Helen Markham's
observations surrounding the Tippit murder, which is just exactly what
Vince Bugliosi points out on Page 52 of his Endnotes on the CD-ROM
attached to his 2007 book "Reclaiming History".
(NOTE: The word "possibly" does precede the words "around 1:30 p.m."
in Odum's written report; so I guess this will now mean that CTers can
gripe because VB cut out that word "possibly". But, in any event, Odum
is on Warren Commission record, via Commission Document #5, as having
stated that Mrs. Markham told him that the murder of J.D. Tippit could
possibly have occurred "around 1:30 p.m.".)
I want to thank Ray for digging up CD#5, with the Odum Report in it. I
looked for hours at Ferrell's site myself and couldn't find it in the
morass of thousands of documents presented there at that excellent
website.
However, Ray, you have the wrong page number within CD#5. The Bardwell
Odum report regarding the specific "around 1:30 p.m." reference isn't
on Page 80....it's on Page 79, which is a completely-different Odum
report filed on a different day.
Page 80 does have an Odum report (from November 25), but it's shorter
and does not include the "1:30" remark. But one page prior (on Page 79
of CD#5), there is a separate report from Odum from 11/22/63 (dictated
on 11/23).
But the main point here is one that I knew would turn out to be true
and verified in short order (because VB wouldn't place quotation marks
around something if those words had never been spoken or written by
someone in the first place)...and that point is: Vincent Bugliosi did
not lie re. this Markham/Odum interview and the timeline issue. And
the document linked below proves that fact (CD5; p.79).
Thanks again, Ray. Good job at digging it up (even though you were one
page off). ;) It probably would have taken me several more days of
agonizing searching to find the damn thing (and I, too, don't know why
Vince B. didn't make mention of "CD5; Pg. 79" in his Endnote re. this
particular Odum report; because that source note would have made it a
lot easier to rub this in a few CTers' noses just that much
sooner).....
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10406&relPageId=82
curtjester1
So, Hill heard it on Alexander's radio? Did they go to the Tippit
scene soon after?
CJ
tomnln
Markham said 1:06. (on 11/22/63)
http://whokilledjfk.net/tippit.htm
"David Von Pein" <davev...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1190846778.0...@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/ad17ef6b8e7524fc
>
> RAY SAID:
>
>>>> "I tracked down Odum's report in Maryferrell.org. It is in CD5 p.
>>>> 80--The Gemberling Report. Odum's report is HEARSAY, and compared to
>>>> Markham's direct testimony -- in her affidavit and in her testimony --
>>>> Odum's report is worthless (and inadmissable) as evidence of the time
>>>> of the Tippit murder." <<<
>
> around something if those words never were never spoken or written by
> someone in the first place)...and that point is: Vincent Bugliosi did
> not lie re. this Markham/Odum interview and the timeline issue. And
> the document linked below proves that fact (CD5; p.79).
>
> Thank again, Ray. Good job at digging it up (even though you were one
> page off). ;) It probably would have taken me several few more days of
tomnln
http://whokilledjfk.net/tippit.htm
"David Von Pein" <davev...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1190848247.1...@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
David Von Pein
for calling Vince Bugliosi a liar on 9/25/07 (even after it's now been
PROVEN to The Sack, via CD#5, that VB did not lie)?
Would anybody like to take some bets on whether Tom-Sack will have the
balls (what's left of them in his shriveled n-sack) to admit he jumped
the gun when he called VB a "liar" on this Odum issue?
[9/25/07 SACK QUOTE ON:]
"Bugloisi [sic] Lied. There is NO Citation for Markham saying 1:30."
[/SACK OFF.]
Maybe you ought to delete this post below, Mr. Kook. It could prove
embarrassing in the future, since you've been proven dead-wrong (as
usual):
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/7bf6cfc0010c2424
tomnln
Those are NOT Markham's words.
They are Odum's words dated 11/23/63.
Markham said 1:06 on 11/22/63.
"David Von Pein" <davev...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1190854797.1...@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
Walt
Yes they jumped into a police car and headed for the Tippit shooting
site. On the way just after they crossed the Trinity river the met
the ambulance that was taking Tippit to the hospital. They passed the
ambulance about a mile from the shooting site. Since that ambulance
left 10th and Patton at about 1:16, they would have met it at about
1:18 / 1:19.
They would have departed from the TSBD about 1:12 / 1:15.
Since Hill had heard the radio transmission reporting that a policeman
had been shot a couple of minutes before leaving the TSBD it's logical
that he heard the transmission at about 1:10/ 1:12.
We don't know which transmission ( Benavides or Bowley) he heard but
regardless which transmission he heard it was transmitted BEFORE
1:15...... And that means the shooting occurred several minutes
before that transmission.
And Oswald could NOT have traveled the mile from his rooming house to
the scene in time to have been there when Tippit was shot.
Walt
>
> CJ
curtjester1
> > So, Hill heard it on Alexander's radio? Did they go to the Tippit
> > scene soon after?
>
> Yes they jumped into a police car and headed for the Tippit shooting
> site. On the way just after they crossed the Trinity river the met
> the ambulance that was taking Tippit to the hospital. They passed the
> ambulance about a mile from the shooting site. Since that ambulance
> left 10th and Patton at about 1:16, they would have met it at about
> 1:18 / 1:19.
> They would have departed from the TSBD about 1:12 / 1:15.
>
> Since Hill had heard the radio transmission reporting that a policeman
> had been shot a couple of minutes before leaving the TSBD it's logical
> that he heard the transmission at about 1:10/ 1:12.
>
> We don't know which transmission ( Benavides or Bowley) he heard but
> regardless which transmission he heard it was transmitted BEFORE
> 1:15...... And that means the shooting occurred several minutes
> before that transmission.
> And Oswald could NOT have traveled the mile from his rooming house to
> the scene in time to have been there when Tippit was shot.
>
> Walt
>
> > CJ
Thanks Walt. I just had never heard of that transmission before. Was
it something that was discovered that was 'somehow hidden'?
Also, Alexander somewhere in my readings was asked about the numbers
on Tippit's car in regards to the description Earlene Roberts gave of
the cop car in front of her house. Alexander said if I remember
right, the only car that would have had those numbers was parked in
back of the TSBD that day. Heard of that one?
CJ