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Debating The John F. Kennedy Assassination (Part 39)

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David Von Pein

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Feb 28, 2007, 1:16:44 AM2/28/07
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DEBATING THE JFK CASE (PART 39):

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SUBJECT -- The JFK Assassination: The Ongoing "Lone Assassin vs.
Conspiracy" Debate.

FEATURED TEXT -- Archived JFK Forum Messages From February 2003,
December 2006, and February 2007.

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CTer (A CONSPIRACY THEORIST) -- Who are the witnesses that claim a
shot was fired just after the Elm Street turn?

DVP (DAVID VON PEIN) -- Several witnesses make this claim. Of course,
in much of this WC testimony (below), it is indeed difficult to figure
out just how far down Elm St. the car is when the statement "just
after the turn" (or something similar) is made. I suppose it's farther
down the street to some than to others. But it appears no one among
Mr. Belin, Mr. Liebeler, or Mr. Specter really pressed hard on the
issue of "exactly how soon after the turn was the first shot". .....

Howard Brennan: "And after the President had passed my position, I
really couldn't say how many feet or how far, A SHORT DISTANCE I WOULD
SAY, I heard this crack that I positively thought was a backfire."

Barbara Rowland: "They were facing mainly toward the other side of the
street and waving, AND AS THEY TURNED THE CORNER we heard a shot."

Nellie Connally: "I could resist no longer. When we got past this area
I did turn to the President and said, 'Mr. President, you can't say
Dallas doesn't love you'. Then, I don't know how soon, IT SEEMS TO ME
IT WAS VERY SOON, that I heard a noise, and not being an expert
rifleman, I was not aware that it was a rifle. It was just a
frightening noise, and it came from the right."

John Connally: "WE HAD JUST MADE THE TURN, well, when I heard what I
thought was a shot. I heard this noise which I immediately took to be
a rifle shot."

Governor Connally's testimony is interesting, but a bit confusing too.
Because, a sentence earlier, he claimed, "We had gone, I guess, 150
feet, maybe 200 feet, I don't recall how far it was, heading down to
get on the freeway."

So, it's a "take your pick" kind of deal I guess. Unless he considers
"we had just made the turn" and "200 feet" to be about the same thing.

-------------------------------------------

CTer -- It was just convenient that {Oswald} was working there {at the
TSBD} and helped seal his fate.

DVP -- Let me see if this is accurate, from a CT POV (that is, from
the point-of-view of a person who does NOT believe Oswald fired any
shots whatsoever):

1.) Oswald is working for/with the killers (in some manner or another)
PRIOR to 11/22/63, plotting the assassination of JFK in some fashion
or other.

2.) Oswald is hired at the TSBD in mid-October 1963 (a date when
nobody could be certain whether a Presidential motorcade through
Dallas would occur or not).

3.) It now just so happens, amazingly enough (all by sheer
coincidence), that the President's motorcade will pass directly in
front of the Depository.

4.) Oswald hauls a rifle into the TSBD on 11/22 (but doesn't use it
HIMSELF; he gives it to some OTHER killer to use). And if you argue,
"He did not carry a RIFLE in to work", then WHAT the heck DID he carry
in? We know he had something of that general size.

5.) Oswald twiddles his thumbs and hangs around the Depository until
after the OTHER killers accomplish the task at hand...which, if he had
no part in the actual shooting, makes no sense to me at all. Why
wouldn't he get the hell AWAY from the murder scene BEFORE the
killing?

6.) Oswald kills J.D. Tippit. (But if he DIDN'T fire on the President,
WHY is he now so trigger-happy?)

Of course, having spouted off all of the above, I can see where Point
#3 could be taken a different way. Meaning: that point could actually
be true. And, in a different (LN) context, I certainly do think it is
true.

Oswald's incredible luck at being employed in the building IS indeed
what sealed the President's demise. But NOT (IMO) as the end result of
an elaborate conspiracy.

LHO's decision to kill JFK was probably not decided until sometime
Thursday, November 21st, the day he made the unusual weekday visit to
the Paines in Irving. He no doubt realized at that time how truly
fortunate he was to be working where he was working. (And also lucky
to have had training in firearms and to have a rifle at his disposal.)

But as far as your previous statement of "it was just convenient that
he was working there", from the standpoint of a pre-arranged plot, I
don't buy it. It seems to me that a batch additional coincidences are
required to support the "convenient" angle from a CT POV.

E.g., the coincidence that Oswald was working with the conspirators
much earlier than October 1963. Then, the coincidence that he's hired
at the Depository well before anyone can know the exact motorcade
route. Then the coincidence that the motorcade will drive right by the
TSBD's front door. It's too much to swallow (from any kind of pre-
arranged CT standpoint).

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/64195df0086af9b4

-------------------------------------------

CTer -- For me, the most convincing thing of all was when he {Oswald}
was being questioned by reporters and was told that he was indeed
being charged with the murder of the President. The look on his face
is one of sheer disbelief.

DVP -- "Sheer disbelief"? You'd better watch that video clip again.

Here it is:

http://216.122.129.112/dc/user_files/9012.gif

His reaction was certainly not that of "disbelief" at the reporter's
"You HAVE been charged" comment. IMO, his reaction was typical of what
he exhibited throughout that November weekend: stoic, detached,
uncaring, indifferent to all that surrounded him. To me, these
reactions spell guilt much more than they do innocence.

Oswald wasn't scared. He wasn't SHOCKED at the news of the President's
death. He didn't seem to be very angry at being charged with the two
11/22 murders (except the one outburst: "I emphatically deny these
charges"). He should have been a nervous wreck (if he was not guilty),
which he certainly was NOT.

Actually, I'm not entirely sure that Oswald even accurately heard the
reporter's "you HAVE been charged" comment. It was very noisy in that
room, and Oswald himself once had to prompt the reporter again for his
comments. You can't really tell from Oswald's indifferent reaction
whether he heard the comment or not.

-------------------------------------------

CTer -- A fallen shell casing weighing an ounce or two dislodges
enough debris to become noticeable in their hair? Get real!

DVP -- Actually, I agree that JUST the casings hitting the floor
certainly wouldn't be enough to "make the ceiling fall in".

But, wouldn't the super loud crack of three rifle bullets being fired
from just above Norman and Jarman POSSIBLY create enough of a
vibration (or shock wave from the shot if you will) to possibly loosen
some of the fifth-floor ceiling material (which is material that might
very well have been kind of on the "loose" side even before November
22nd)?

The Depository was an old building. It was 60 years old on 11/22/63,
having been re-built in 1903 after a fire destroyed the original
structure in 1901.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if some ceiling material could have
been vibrated loose by a reverberating rifle shot (times three).

-------------------------------------------

CTer -- Yes! Klein's Sporting Goods was a CIA front for movement of
these weapons to "insurgent" forces supported by Agency activities.

DVP -- Oh, great! Now we've got Klein's in on the act! Is the Pope
also on the lengthy list of conspirators too? (He probably wasn't too
happy about JFK's infidelity.)

Okay, so Klein's sends Oswald (Hidell) the rifle in the mail, right?
Which, if Klein's is involved somehow, is kind of stupid IMO, because
of all the paperwork/trail that can lead to both Klein's and Oswald
(we know the "Hidell" order form is in LHO's handwriting).

Why not just have a Klein's "operative" deliver the rifle to Oswald in
person? No paper trail that way.

Now, I suppose this Klein's involvement must also mean they were
conspiring to kill General Walker just days after Oswald received the
weapon, right? (Too much of a coincidence there to figure anything
else.)

Now, how about "Seaport Traders, Inc.", the suppliers of Oswald's .38
revolver? Were they plotters too? (And don't forget about the "Western
Cartridge Company". They made the Carcano bullets that went into
Oswald's rifle; so surely the WCC people must have had a share in the
wide-sweeping plot as well, right?)

-------------------------------------------

CTer -- People throughout history have {done} despicable acts because
they were told to. Most notably, fly an airliner into the twin towers.

DVP -- Difference there being: Oswald (we know) was not suicidal. We
know he tried his best to preserve his own life after taking JFK's.

And I just cannot envision even Oswald being stupid enough to use his
own semi-crappy Mannlicher-Carcano, when "Mother Russia" could
certainly have provided a much better weapon to perform the ugly deed
(and one that won't be traced straight to "Alek J. Hidell", and one
that won't require Oswald to make an unannounced weekday visit to Ruth
Paine's house to retrieve his rifle which he has to wrap up like a
mummy and then tell lies about).

Via the "Soviet" scenario that has been discussed, you'd have to
believe one of two things occurred on 11/22/63:

1.) Oswald was dumber than the dumbest box of rocks (and willingly
stepped right on in to the Soviet Union's perfect "Patsy" plan).

-- Or: --

2.) In a Non-Patsy-Framing scenario, these crackerjack Soviet Union
behind-the-scenes assassination-planners were so impoverished and
destitute they just simply could not afford to furnish their assassin
with a weapon with which to shoot their U.S. adversary....and forced
Oswald, instead, to use his own 21-dollar and somewhat-shabby bolt-
action rifle to pull off the most important "hit" these Russian bums
will ever attempt in their rotten lives.

I ask -- Is either choice above within the realm of reasonable
probability?

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/9c2238388f0a72c3

-------------------------------------------

CTer -- There is persuasive evidence to believe that there never was a
paper bag--until it was realized that some method of introducing the
rifle to the TSBD by Oswald was needed.

DVP -- More Conspiracy Kook Talk here I see, as a CTer imagines all
kinds of hinky and shady cops faking evidence all over God's Creation,
without a granule of solid evidence to back up such crap.

Plus -- If most of the cops were "in" on the "LET'S FRAME OSWALD"
plot, why in the world didn't these crooked cops place the "fake" bag
back into the SN and snap a picture of it (instead of having Bob
Studebaker admit to the WC that he had moved the bag prior to any
picture being taken of the Nest area)?

Stupid plotters.

Of course, we have these pictures of DPD Detective L.D. Montgomery
removing the paper sack from the TSBD on 11/22/63. This must be a FAKE
bag, per the beliefs of rabid CTers. .....

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/images/bag2.jpg

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/images/bag3.jpg

Plus -- It's doubtful that the Dallas Police even KNEW that a bulky
paper bag had been hauled into work by Lee Oswald by the time those
photos of Montgomery with the bag were taken on the afternoon of
November 22.

Which would mean the cops were not only incredibly thorough in their
Patsy Frame-Up -- they must have had a really good crystal ball with
them that day, too.

Let's review a little WC testimony......

DETECTIVE L.D. MONTGOMERY -- "...And then we took a Dr. Pepper bottle
and that sack that we found that looked like the rifle was wrapped up
in. .... Right over here is where we found that long piece of paper
that looked like a sack, that the rifle had been in."

Montgomery also corroborates Robert Studebaker's testimony with
respect to the following comments re. who picked up the rifle
sack.....

MR. BALL -- "You found the sack in the area marked 2 on Exhibit J to
the Studebaker deposition. Did you pick the sack up?"

DET. MONTGOMERY -- "Yes."

MR. BALL -- "You picked it up?"

DET. MONTGOMERY -- "Wait just a minute, no; I didn't pick it up. I
believe Mr. Studebaker did. We left it laying right there so they
could check it for prints."

~~~~~~

Another thing to consider is this -- If the DPD cops were truly the
rotten, lying, evidence-planting crooks that CTers think they
were....WOULD THEY HAVE PERMITTED TOM ALYEA TO FILM THEIR
CONSPIRATORIAL HANDIWORK?!

That's just insane on its face!

They're planting evidence and faking stuff left and right...and yet
they're allowing a guy to document this shady activity on motion-
picture film??!!

They sure were obliging plotters, I must say. They could have easily
kicked Alyea out of the building (which is, in fact, what I think they
should have done, even from my LN POV).

But, instead of booting him out the front door (or at the very least,
make him stop filming their criminal acts!), they allow Alyea access
to the crime scene on the 6th Floor of the Depository; and they allow
this cameraman to see (and film!) everything the so-called "DPD
crooks" are doing.

Crazy. Kooky even.

The mere fact that the DPD allowed Tom Alyea to film anything on the
sixth floor is virtual proof that the police had absolutely nothing to
hide on November 22nd, 1963.

-------------------------------------------

CTer -- The Government has significant power, and if something like a
plot to kill the President were revealed, it would devastate the very
foundations of our U.S. Constitution.

DVP -- And yet the people who supposedly pre-planned JFK's death--
people who surely had to know that such a covert action, if revealed
as true, "would devastate the very foundations of our U.S.
Constitution"--just went right ahead with such a reckless plan to
murder their very own President by using multiple guns while at the
same time attempting to pin the whole nine yards on a single dupe
named Oswald (per many CTer beliefs)....right?

One simple question:

Was having John F. Kennedy dead really THAT important, necessary, and
absolutely imperative (to whoever it was who arranged it) that those
"people"/"covert assassins" were willing to risk "devastat{ing} the
very foundations of our U.S. Constitution"?

If your answer is "Yes, his death WAS that important to these people"
-- please tell us why?

-------------------------------------------

THE ULTIMATE VOICE OF REASON:

"Based on the evidence in this case, Lee Harvey Oswald is as guilty as
sin! Because there's not one tiny grain of evidence....not one
microscopic speck of evidence that ANYONE -- other than Lee Harvey
Oswald -- was responsible for the assassination of John F. Kennedy.

"HOW was Lee Harvey Oswald framed?! When we look at the mechanics of
such a possible conspiracy in this case -- how COULD he have been
framed?!

"How, in fact, if Oswald were innocent, did they GET Oswald, within 45
minutes of the assassination, to murder Officer Tippit?! Or was he
framed for THAT murder too?!

"As surely as I am standing here, and surely as night follows day, Lee
Harvey Oswald -- acting alone -- was responsible for the murder of
President John F. Kennedy." -- VINCENT T. BUGLIOSI

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/1e2929be83607513

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