WHERE WAS OSWALD AT 12:30?
David Von Pein
>>> "Are you sure that is an accurate statement? Oswald was seen before the shooting and even after the shooting, but no one saw him while the shooting was happening..." <<<
That's (technically) not true, Bill. Howard Brennan *did* see Oswald
"while the shooting was happening".
But, even for CTers who don't buy Brennan's eyewitness account, it's a
virtual certainty that Oswald was INSIDE the Depository when the
assassination was taking place -- unless you want to believe that
Oswald dashed to the second-floor lunchroom FROM OUTSIDE THE BUILDING
in the 90 seconds after the shooting.
As for Oswald being the ONLY employee who was INSIDE the TSBD to have
left work early -- I do believe I have that correct.
Jean Davison (a very respected researcher, IMO) seems to think so too.
And she has said so here at Lancer (in my "Point-By-Point" thread in
fact). .....
JFK-Lancer Post #17949 (July 20, 2003):
"Oswald, OTOH, was the only employee who'd been INSIDE at the
time of the shooting who left work BEFORE the building was sealed
off." -- Jean Davison
The "Charles Givens was also missing" argument won't fly -- because
Givens was known to have been OUTSIDE the building at 12:30 PM.
Walt
> www.jfklancerforum.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=3&topic_id=...
>
> >>> "Are you sure that is an accurate statement? Oswald was seen before the shooting and even after the shooting, but no one saw him while the shooting was happening..." <<<
>
> That's (technically) not true, Bill. Howard Brennan *did* see Oswald
> "while the shooting was happening".
Von Pea Brain....Why do you continue to lie when you should know by
now ( if you were honest) that the DESCRIPTION of the gunman that
Howard Brennan saw DID NOT match Oswald?
David Von Pein
"Given all the evidence in the case that corroborates [Howard]
Brennan's being RIGHT when he identified Oswald as the TSBD sniper,
the odds that Brennan actually saw someone OTHER than Lee Harvey
Oswald in that window are extremely remote....to virtually non-
existent." -- DVP; January 22, 2007
www.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/7e70b829247b4a49
Ben Holmes
Walt says...>> www.jfklancerforum.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=3Dshow_topic&forum=3D3&topic_id=
>=3D...
>>
>> >>> "Are you sure that is an accurate statement? Oswald was seen before th=
>e shooting and even after the shooting, but no one saw him while the shootin=
>g was happening..." <<<
>>
>> That's (technically) not true, Bill. Howard Brennan *did* see Oswald
>> "while the shooting was happening".
>
>Von Pea Brain....Why do you continue to lie when you should know by
>now ( if you were honest) that the DESCRIPTION of the gunman that
>Howard Brennan saw DID NOT match Oswald?
LNT'ers will never admit it... it undermines their faith. They *have* to lie.
>> But, even for CTers who don't buy Brennan's eyewitness account, it's a
>> virtual certainty that Oswald was INSIDE the Depository when the
>> assassination was taking place -- unless you want to believe that
>> Oswald dashed to the second-floor lunchroom FROM OUTSIDE THE BUILDING
>> in the 90 seconds after the shooting.
Yet the LNT'er faction would have us swallow the story that Oswald made, instead
of merely a one story dash - A FOUR STORY DASH IN THE SAME TIME PERIOD!
>> As for Oswald being the ONLY employee who was INSIDE the TSBD to have
>> left work early -- I do believe I have that correct.
Then you're a liar. You know quite well that this is a misleading assertion.
You might as well make the assertion that Oswald was the only employee missing
who's middle name was "Harvey"... it's just as meaningless.
>> Jean Davison (a very respected researcher, IMO) seems to think so too.
>> And she has said so here at Lancer (in my "Point-By-Point" thread in
>> fact). .....
>>
>> JFK-Lancer Post #17949 (July 20, 2003):
>>
>> =A0 =A0 =A0 "Oswald, OTOH, was the only employee who'd been INSIDE at the
>> time of the shooting who left work BEFORE the building was sealed
>> off." -- Jean Davison
>>
>> The "Charles Givens was also missing" argument won't fly -- because
>> Givens was known to have been OUTSIDE the building at 12:30 PM.
That no-one else's middle name was "Harvey" won't fly...
robcap...@netscape.com
> www.jfklancerforum.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=3&topic_id=...
>
> >>> "Are you sure that is an accurate statement? Oswald was seen before the shooting and even after the shooting, but no one saw him while the shooting was happening..." <<<
"That's (technically) not true, Bill. Howard Brennan *did* see Oswald
"while the shooting was happening"."
Prove this.
"But, even for CTers who don't buy Brennan's eyewitness account, it's
a virtual certainty that Oswald was INSIDE the Depository when the
assassination was taking place -- unless you want to believe that
Oswald dashed to the second-floor lunchroom FROM OUTSIDE THE BUILDING
in the 90 seconds after the shooting."
How many others were inside the building also? Why couldn't he do this
(your example) since the WC had him wiping clean the rifle, stashing
the rifle, running down multiple flights of stairs (passed two others
without being seen) and purchasing a soda all in 90 seconds and not
being the least winded by it. He also covered ground like the "Flash"
to have allegedly shot JDT.
"As for Oswald being the ONLY employee who was INSIDE the TSBD to have
left work early -- I do believe I have that correct."
No you don't, several workers were gone including Wes Frazier (and
Charles Givins I belive - he had a drug bust to his credit) until
later in the afternoon, and many were outside and not accounted for.
The idea of an official roll-call was proven a long time ago to be a
lie.
"Jean Davison (a very respected researcher, IMO) seems to think so
too. And she has said so here at Lancer (in my "Point-By-Point" thread
in fact). ....."
Thinking so and proving are two different things.
>
> JFK-Lancer Post #17949 (July 20, 2003):
>
> "Oswald, OTOH, was the only employee who'd been INSIDE at the
> time of the shooting who left work BEFORE the building was sealed
> off." -- Jean Davison
"The "Charles Givens was also missing" argument won't fly -- because
Givens was known to have been OUTSIDE the building at 12:30 PM."
Then why was the DPD searching for him?
Raymond
> www.jfklancerforum.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=3&topic_id=...
>
WHERE WAS OSWALD AT 12:30?
In the men's room on the second floor watching the shooting of the
president. He went from there to the lunch room where he was seen
entering by Baker and Truly
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0119b.htm
RUTH and ROY'S PLACE
The building is the secret-if ya wanna know the truth.
And how they got Lee in there-ya needa ask Miss Ruth.
The place is full of cub-by-holes and spots where you could hide.
And, you didn't need a stairway-there were other ways outside.
An architect could show you how the dirty deed was done;
And, where the man was hiding-the man who shot the gun.
When the policeman came and asked the man to help him find his
way,
The guy in charge of everything had only this to say:
" Would you like to see the basement? Or, the stairway would be
fun!
The shooter should be out by now; there's no need for us to run.
We know these folks weren't strangers-they knew each other well,
And, soon they'll be together to celebrate in HELL.
So, the building is the secret-take another look,
The secret isn't magic-the answer's in the book.
First a bit about the TSBD building and the history of the company.
The now famous building at 411 Elm Street, In Dallas, was built in
1903. The original owner was International Harvester. In 1936, D.
(Dryhole)Harold Byrd , a Texas oil tycoon, bought the building with
the intention of using it to manufacture air conditioning units. The
plan never developed and the building stood vacant from 1936 to 1940.
Byrd then leased the place to Sexton Grocery who used the building as
an office and grocery wharehouse. Sexton moved out in late 1961 and
the book company took out a lease in late 1962.
The TSBD Company was organized in 1908 and incorperated in 1927.
Through the 40's, they were located at 2210 Pacific Ave. In 1950,
they
acquired a four story wharehouse at 1917 No. Houston St.(They still
operated it in 1963).
In 1952, they moved their management and clerical personnel to 501
Elm
St. ( The first floor of the Dal-Tex Building across the street from
the present TSBD building). In 1962, the city directory shows the
wharehouse as vacant.
In Nov. 1963, Ruth's pal, Roy Truly, the manager , told the FBI:
"We had occupied the building at 411 Elm St. for only a few months;
the building was occupied by a wholesale grocery company engaged in
supplying restaurants and institutions." FBI File DL 100-10461.
On 11-22-63, the first person to see LHO was Patrolman Marion L.
Baker , who was riding a two-wheeled motorcycle in the motorcade. As
he approached the corner of Houston and Elm St, he heard shots that
he
believed came from the building in front of him, or the building to
the right of him, which was the Dal-Tex Building. He noticed pidgeons
flying from the top of the TSBD and decided to investigate.
Suspicious
that the shots came from the upper floors, the officer entred the
front door of the building, encountered Truly, the manager, and asked
to be directed to the elevator, or the stairs that led to the upper
floors, where he concluded he would find the shooter.
TRULY: "...As he ran up the stairway--I mean the steps, I was
almost
to the steps, I ran up with him inside the lobby of the building, or
possibly the front steps, I don't remember that close. But I remember
it occured to me that this man wants on top of the building. He
doesn't know the plan of the floor-and that is-that just popped into
my mind and I ran in with him. As we got in the lobby, almost on the
inside of the first floor, this policeman asked me where the stairway
is. and I said,'This way,' And I ran diagonally across to the
northwest corner of the building." Vol.3, p.221 WR
Roy Sanson Truly showed signs of clairvoyance here. Despite the fact
that he believed that someone had shot at the President from west of
his building, he knew that the policeman knew otherwise and "wants on
top of the building.". And why he guided the officer to the northwest
corner of the first floor, to the rear stairway and the rear freight
elevators, is confusing, since there was a stairway and an elevator
several feet from where the two men were standing, in the front lobby
of the building.
It was true that the lobby stairway only went to the second floor and
the elevator only went to the fourth floor , but doesn't it seem
natural to head upward from the nearest point and make the move to
the
rear stairway after reaching the fourth floor, and especially since
Truly knew the building better than Baker?
In the May, 1994 issue, of FOURTH DECADE, Wm. Weston provided
researchers with information about the TSBD building and its history.
His title: 411 Main Street.
The author tells us that the book people had occupied the address for
only a couple of months before doing considerable renovation prior to
moving in. In addition to the new heating and air conditioning, a
narrow shaft-a dumbwaiter- was installed from the fourth floor to the
first to facilitate the paperwork movement. From Weston's work:
"When the construction of the new office suites had been completed,
they initally had one significant drawback: the only means of access
to them was either the front stairs, which went up to the second
floor, and/or the stairs in the northwest corner of the building
which
ascended all the way up to the seventh floor. They could not use the
two big freight elevators in the back of the building, for they were
reserved for the wharehouse workers. Climbing up and down stairs
every
day was a minor hardship for some people. Yet, this problem was later
rectified when a newly constructed passenger elevator became
operational.
"As soon as the passenger elevator became operational, the stairway
in
the northwest corner was closed off in lieu of 'repairs.' No one was
allowed to use it. The nature of these repairs remains unknown,
although they were not the kind that prevented heavy use of the
stairs
on the day of the assassination."
From testimony of Pauline Sanders , employee: FBI interview. "SANDERS
advised that the stairwell would probably have been the easiest way
for Oswald to leave without being too noticible since the stairwell
is
in need of repairs and employees had been instructed not to use the
stairwell."
Yet, Truly, who probably was responsible for the directive, took
Officer Baker to the farthest point in the building to reach the
upper
floors
Let us prey,
Walt
wrote:
> On May 18, 1:35 am, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >www.jfklancerforum.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=3&topic_id=...
>
> > >>> "Are you sure that is an accurate statement? Oswald was seen before the shooting and even after the shooting, but no one saw him while the shooting was happening..." <<<
>
> "That's (technically) not true, Bill. Howard Brennan *did* see Oswald
> "while the shooting was happening"."
Here's Howard Brennan's description of the man he saw fire a hunting
rifle from a sixth floor window....
Brennan said that the gunman was in his early thirties... Oswald was
ten years younger.
Brennan said the gunman weighed about 165 to 175 pounds....Oswald
weighed 140 pounds.
Brennan said the gunman was dressed in light colored shirt and light
colored trousers.... Oswald was dressed in a DARK colored brown shirt,
and DARK gray trousers.
The describtion that Brennan gave of the gunman DID NOT fit Lee
Oswald...THAT is a FACT!
> >www.blogger.com/profile/12501570830179992520- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Todd W. Vaughan
> On 22 May, 15:14, "robcap...@netscape.com" <robcap...@netscape.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On May 18, 1:35 am, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > >www.jfklancerforum.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=3&topic_id=...
>
> > > >>> "Are you sure that is an accurate statement? Oswald was seen before the shooting and even after the shooting, but no one saw him while the shooting was happening..." <<<
>
> > "That's (technically) not true, Bill. Howard Brennan *did* see Oswald
> > "while the shooting was happening"."
>
> Here's Howard Brennan's description of the man he saw fire a hunting
> rifle from a sixth floor window....
Walt,
Where does Brennan describe the rifle as a "hunting rifle"?
Todd
> > >www.blogger.com/profile/12501570830179992520-Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
robcap...@netscape.com
wrote:
> On May 25, 10:16 am, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:
>
> > On 22 May, 15:14, "robcap...@netscape.com" <robcap...@netscape.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > On May 18, 1:35 am, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > >www.jfklancerforum.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=3&topic_id=...
>
> > > > >>> "Are you sure that is an accurate statement? Oswald was seen before the shooting and even after the shooting, but no one saw him while the shooting was happening..." <<<
>
> > > "That's (technically) not true, Bill. Howard Brennan *did* see Oswald
> > > "while the shooting was happening"."
>
> > Here's Howard Brennan's description of the man he saw fire a hunting
> > rifle from a sixth floor window....
>
"Walt,
Where does Brennan describe the rifle as a "hunting rifle"?
Todd"
I'll let Walt anser this question, but I just wanted to interject
Brennan did NOT see a scope attached to the rifle he said he saw, and
we all know the MC found had one.
> > > >www.blogger.com/profile/12501570830179992520-Hidequoted text -
Lone
> www.jfklancerforum.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=3&topic_id=...
>
>
> That's (technically) not true, Bill. Howard Brennan *did* see Oswald
> "while the shooting was happening".
Bullshit. Brennan saw a standing man in the SW window shooting at the
motorcade. Arnold Rowland saw the same man with his rifle minutes
prior to the shooting.
When Brennan saw Oswalds face on the telly this afternoon( he was at
home after questioned by the sheriffs), OSWALD WAS COMPLETELY
UNFAMILIAR to him.
Therefore he failed to identify LHO at the (unfair)7. p.m lineup the
same day.
Brennan saw Oswald on the telly: nothing struck him.
He saw LHO in the line up---nothing struck him.
"He never saw no Oswald" anywhere anyhow at DP this day. Even in his
essay about the assassination, Brennan made no claim a la: And the
shooter I saw, was Oswald.