JFK Assassination Forum Archives -- Misc. Topics Of Interest (Part 190)

[David Von Pein]

ARCHIVED JFK ASSASSINATION FORUM POSTS OF INTEREST (PART 190):

======================================================


RICHARD BELZER:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/e871b3ee06454378


SECRET SERVICE CONFUSION AT LOVE FIELD:
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2012/09/secret-service-confusion-at-love-field.html


DR. OLIVIER AND DR. LATTIMER:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/884425c3d6ca0081


JFK'S HEAD WOUNDS AND SOME NAA TALK:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/15e39d9c6ac86e77
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/3223cb69ea6fa0b7
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/92b9d39e26c63985


DAVID LIFTON:
http://www.amazon.com/review/R1PL73WIQORC62/ref=cm_cr_rev_detmd_pl?ie=UTF8&asin=0440005868&cdForum=FxVMQ58Y9WOJZ4&cdMsgID=Mx35SQCSH2RHVRT&cdMsgNo=6&cdPage=1&cdSort=oldest&cdThread=TxTTUC35CUWGJB&store=books#Mx35SQCSH2RHVRT


ROBERT HARRIS:
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=19537&st=15#entry260593


POST OFFICE STUFF:
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=19537&st=30#entry260617


LEE HARVEY OSWALD AND THE EVIDENCE AGAINST HIM:
http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,6997.msg187997.html#msg187997
http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,6997.msg188002.html#msg188002


COMMISSION EXHIBIT 399:
http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,7010.msg188881.html#msg188881
http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,7010.msg189125.html#msg189125
http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,7010.msg189138.html#msg189138
http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,7010.msg189204.html#msg189204
http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,7010.msg189226.html#msg189226
http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,7010.msg189353.html#msg189353
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=19537&#entry260574
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/40cc2e86edf87071
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/32a6bbc725987603

======================================================

[aeffects]

On Sep 30, 8:01 am, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:

<sniperoo>

No advertising, moron. You know the rules.... The Mark Lane threads
have you running for the hill too eh, creepo?

[timstter]

Looks like YOU'RE the one doing the running, Dave/Ringo.

Informative Regards,

Tim Brennan
Sydney, Australia
*Newsgroup(s) Commentator*

*...NOT ONE of the three experts was able to strike the head or the
neck of the target EVEN ONCE.* (Emphasis added).
Mark Lane, Rush to Judgment, page 129, footnoted as: XVII 261-262.

And yet here IS WC XVII 261-262, showing hits to the head...
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0144a.htm

X marks the spot where Mark Lane lied!

[David Von Pein]

http://www.amazon.com/review/RZD82270D69E8/ref=cm_cr_rev_detup_redir?_encoding=UTF8&asin=0393045250&cdForum=FxVMQ58Y9WOJZ4&cdPage=2&cdSort=oldest&cdThread=Tx3L36ZL9W89MBT&newContentID=Mx3ISWFLHQ7QYD7&store=books#Mx3ISWFLHQ7QYD7


GARRY PUFFER SAID:

I find it most interesting that you were able to read and review this
book well before the publication date.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I wasn't and I didn't. And in my very first comment connected to this
Amazon review, I explained the error concerning the date that appears
at the top of my review.


GARRY PUFFER SAID:

The Warren Commission Report is nearly 900 pages accompanied by 26
volumes of testimony and evidence (but no index).


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Better look again. The Warren Commission Report actually includes
MULTIPLE indexes. Let's have a gander:

WARREN REPORT APPENDIX V (INDEX OF WITNESSES):
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0254a.htm

WARREN COMMISSION INDEX OF NAMES:
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh15/html/WC_Vol15_0382a.htm

WARREN COMMISSION INDEX OF EXHIBITS:
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh15/html/WC_Vol15_0406a.htm

How many more indexes do you require?


GARRY PUFFER SAID:

That is a massive number of pages for something of such poor quality.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

You're obviously buried in conspiracy quicksand, Garry. The fact is,
the Warren Commission Report and volumes are massively comprehensive
(certainly comprehensive enough to determine what needed to be
determined--i.e., Who Shot JFK and did he do it alone?). Naturally,
you totally disagree. Well, what's new there?

The WC's biggest mistake was not taking a closer look at the autopsy
photos and X-rays. Therefore, we had to rely on inaccurate drawings
made by Mr. Rydberg.

But the conspiracists who think they can use the Rydberg drawings to
discredit the WC's findings are sorely mistaken, and that's because
the NEXT investigation (the HSCA) DID examine the autopsy pictures and
X-rays in detail (and confirmed their authenticity), and the HSCA/FPP
came to the same identical conclusion that the WC came to -- JFK was
shot just twice, with both bullets entering his body FROM BEHIND. And
the Clark Panel in 1968 and the Rockefeller Commission in 1975 came to
the very same identical conclusion as well. Were they ALL liars?


GARRY PUFFER SAID:

You made the same mistake with this review. It's way too long.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

It's a really long book, so I wrote a really long review to go with
it. So sorry you were displeased. I hope you'll forgive me for not
meeting the rigid expectations of a conspiracy theorist. I should be
hanged from the oak tree in front of the Depository. (Got any rope?)


GARRY PUFFER SAID:

He [Vincent Bugliosi] did very little actual research (almost none in
fact) and although the book was 20 years in the making, precious
little of that time was used in researching and writing this book.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

You don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about. Between
approximately 2001 and November 2006, Mr. Bugliosi worked 80 to 100
hours per week on "Reclaiming History". And to say he did almost no
research for the book is to simply ignore the 10,000 source notes that
appear in the book.

Get real, Garry. So far you're anything but.


GARRY PUFFER SAID:

I wasn't aware that Mr. Garrison had been "thoroughly discredited." By
whom?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

By anyone with a smidgen of common sense, that's by whom. Just read
Vincent's section on that topic in "Reclaiming History" (beginning on
Page 1361). Apparently you didn't.

For Pete sake, Jim Garrison's own lead investigator, William Gurvich,
resigned in disgust and told the world that Garrison had "no case"
whatsoever against the man Garrison was prosecuting for murder--Clay
Shaw.

Read more about Garrison's total lack of evidence against Shaw and
Gurvich's comments about the case here ("RH" page 1361):

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-GMnMIobxRGs/UHHyTgp1k3I/AAAAAAAAJxA/v8gs3bqOUgo/s1600/RH-Excerpt.png


GARRY PUFFER PUFFED:

Your review suffers from the same faults as "Reclaiming History": It
is voluminous but without substance, it contains untruths, and it
avoids any ideas that conflict with its conclusions. I'll give your
review a D- because there are very few grammatical or spelling errors.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

How sweet of you. But at least a D- is better than the F- that you're
getting for your review of my review.

The day you come up with one solid piece of credible evidence that
undermines the "Oswald Did It" conclusions of both the Warren
Commission and the HSCA, please drop me a line. Thus far no conspiracy
theorist has been able to do that. But, who knows, maybe Garry Puffer
of Riverside, California, will be the first. Good luck.

http://ReclaimingHistory.blogspot.com

[David Von Pein]

CONTINUATION OF AN AMAZON.COM DISCUSSION (AKA: MISCELLANEOUS FIGHTS
AND ANTAGONISTIC POSTS):

http://www.amazon.com/review/RZD82270D69E8/ref=cm_cr_rev_detmd_pl?ie=UTF8&asin=0393045250&cdForum=FxVMQ58Y9WOJZ4&cdMsgID=Mx1IFTXJGNSZBZB&cdMsgNo=25&cdPage=3&cdSort=oldest&cdThread=Tx3L36ZL9W89MBT&store=books#Mx1IFTXJGNSZBZB


GARRY PUFFER SAID:

David von Pein [sic] is an internet troll. .... He does not believe
the stuff he spews forth.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

What a stupid thing to say. Why on Earth would anyone say such a silly
thing? Just to be argumentative?

GARRY PUFFER SAID:

He [DVP] distorts information and even lies...

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Garry Puffer, of course, won't be able to quote a single "lie" coming
from my mouth, and that's because I have never once "lied" in any of
my posts regarding the JFK case.

He might be able to find an occasional "mistake", but that's not quite
the same thing thing as a lie. I wonder if Puffer truly understands
the difference. (But he won't find very many mistakes in my posts
either. But, good luck trying.)

GARRY PUFFER SAID:

I will assume that you [John King] are being truthful and that you are
not just DVP using a different name as he is known to do.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

That's a bald-faced lie right there. I have never once utilized
multiple aliases or Internet usernames in order to pose as different
people. That's one of the silliest things I have ever heard of, in
fact. I've put a lot of work into my JFK articles over the years, and
I certainly don't want some alias getting the credit for them. That's
just dumb, IMO.

And I'm wondering just where Puffer got the idea that I have utilized
aliases in the past? I, too, have heard the accusation, so don't think
that you (Puffer) are the first to bring that wholly false claim to my
attention. But I'm just curious to know where you got such a stupid
idea in the first place? Black Op Radio perhaps? (Ugghhh!)

GARRY PUFFER SAID:

David,

I won't play your game. You have been trained in ways I have not.

But the short of it is that no intelligent person who is the slightest
bit familiar with the case could possibly believe that Oswald did it
alone. Since you seem to be intelligent and you ARE familiar with the
case, you cannot possibly believe that Oswald did it alone. Therefore
in claiming that you do believe such a thing, you are, quite simply,
lying.

The only people still defending the patently false notion of the Lone
Nut and the painfully ridiculous SBT do not merely think that people
need to be saved from the awful kooks and nuts of the conspiracy
community. They are people with a different agenda. You know what
yours is. I don't, really, I have to admit. I don't know whether you
are driven merely by money or something else, but I do know that you
are not driven by a need to "set the record straight." If you were,
you would not be defending a book as shallow and misleading as
"Reclaiming History." You would be agitating for an independent
investigation of the whole affair. Yet you claim that we already have
all the answers. How pitiful. How deficient in true understanding.

I find it interesting that you did not reply to my last post yet as
soon as I posted a reply to Mr. King, here you are. Hmmm.

To Mr. John Reagor King,

If DVP had remained silent, I would have been happy to study your
posts and reply to you, as I indicated. However, his noxious presence
here is so offensive to me that I will no longer post on this thread.
Sorry.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Well, after all, Puffer, this is a comments area for MY REVIEW. It
stands to reason, therefore, that "noxious" ol' lyin' DVP (or am I
really King after all?) would probably be posting at least a little
bit here, since it's kind of my home territory (review-wise).

And it was a nice sidestep dance Puffer did when talking about all of
my supposed "lies". He can't name one, of course, therefore we're
treated to sewage like this:

"Since you seem to be intelligent and you ARE familiar with the case,
you cannot possibly believe that Oswald did it alone. Therefore in
claiming that you do believe such a thing, you are, quite simply,
lying."

Don't ya just love it when somebody ELSE tells you exactly what you're
REALLY thinking and doing?

Puffer's got it all figured out. In his own conspiracy-infested head,
that is.

It's just too bad for Puffer that he doesn't have a single solitary
piece of PHYSICAL EVIDENCE to support his belief in a JFK conspiracy.
That'd be a little helpful, wouldn't it?

[David Von Pein]

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/browse_thread/thread/f8d3136f24a70139/52bf93f205766bc7?#52bf93f205766bc7

RAY SAID:

>>> "After Reviewing the Warren Report, Lord Devlin wrote: "The evidence connecting Oswald with the assassination of the President would in my opinion be insufficient if there were not evidence connecting him with the murder of Patrolman Tippit." .... Devlin was a Law Lord, the British equivialent of a Supreme Court Justice, and he was pro-Commission, yet he points out that the Tippit murder was the only possible case against Oz. Yet Bugliosi in his humongous book does not have a chapter on the Tippit murder. How can anyone take Bugliosi seriously?" <<<


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

But just because there's not a chapter in "Reclaiming History"
labelled "The Tippit Murder", that doesn't mean Bugliosi totally
ignored the Tippit crime. To the contrary, there's ample material
concerning J.D. Tippit's murder (and Oswald's all-too-obvious guilt in
that crime) in Mr. Bugliosi's book.

However, I too was a bit surprised (even before the book came out) to
find that there was no specific chapter on the Tippit slaying in "RH".
It is, indeed, a very important part of solving JFK's murder.

"I'm very surprised that Vince hasn't added a chapter in his
book devoted to J.D. Tippit's murder. That's quite strange, IMO.
Obviously, VB will get into the Tippit murder in great depth in a
comprehensive book of this sort...but a lack of a chapter heading on
that key Tippit crime is a bit of a mystery to me." -- DVP; May 5,
2007

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/ff097a722bef180d


ADDENDUM REGARDING THE ARTICLE WRITTEN BY LORD DEVLIN:

Lord Devlin, in his review of the Warren Commission's case against Lee
Oswald in the March 1965 edition of "Atlantic Monthly", seemed to be
of the opinion that the evidence against Oswald was, indeed,
legitimate evidence (i.e., it wasn't all planted and/or manufactured
by some third party who was trying to frame Oswald, which is the
nonsense that most conspiracists now seem to swallow).

But even in accepting the large amount of evidence against Oswald as
legitimate evidence that wasn't tampered with, Lord Devlin did make
this statement (as Ray pointed out in his earlier post):

"The evidence connecting Oswald with the assassination of the
President would in my opinion be insufficient if there were not
evidence connecting him with the murder of Patrolman Tippit. It is
most unlikely that Oswald would have murdered Tippit it he had not
previously been concerned in the killing of the President. The two
things hang together."

That above comment seems very odd in light of the many things that
Devlin ALSO said in the very same 1965 article that support the Warren
Commission's findings and conclusions. Let's take a look at a few of
Devlin's remarks:

"All this is simple to follow and appears to me to establish
quite conclusively that the shots that killed the President were fired
from the depository. The rest of the evidence is corroborative. There
is medical evidence about the nature of the wounds to show that the
bullets were fired from above and behind and also evidence that a
bullet fragment struck the windshield of the car from behind.

[...]

"If the case against Oswald is stripped of everything that does
not amount to practical certainty, what is left is this. He was in the
building at the time of the assassination of the President and could
have been on the sixth floor. The President was killed by a gun which
belonged to Oswald and which he falsely denied buying or owning. The
man who fired it was not unlike Oswald. Three quarters of an hour
later Patrolman Tippit was shot with a revolver belonging to Oswald.
Oswald’s jacket was found along the path taken by the murderer in
flight. Then Oswald was found with the revolver in his possession, and
he used violence in resisting arrest. He was a man who had attempted
assassination before. In the [Warren] report, these bare bones are
fully fleshed. An exhaustive investigation has produced a mass of
corroborative evidence and nothing at all to shake the natural
conclusion.

[...]

"A defense counsel who was given free leave by the courts to
invent any explanation which would account for the facts in this case
and yet be consistent with his client’s innocence would have had a
desperate task.

[...]

"The careers of Oswald and Ruby have been traced from birth. An
appendix is devoted to each of them. The picture that emerges of them
both makes it, to my mind, more likely that each of them would have
acted as a solitary than as a conspirator. Their motives are
inexplicable by ordinary standards, but there is something in the
character of each that makes them at least plausible.

[...]

"I can only say that after reading it all [the Warren
Report]...I am left with the impression of a searching and objective
investigation and a completely impartial analysis. .... The best
tribute to the solidity of the report comes from its critics. It
would, I should have thought, have been obvious even to an amateur
that he could not make much impression on the structure of this report
unless he had a charge of high explosives to put under some parts of
it. But all that the critics seem to be doing is to clamber about on
the surface, chipping away with a hammer and chisel as if the height
of their ambition were to deface the exterior slightly.

[...]

"It is no doubt distressing to the logical mind when after an
immense investigation, two extraordinary murders occurring in the
course of the same story are explained only as disconnected and
senseless actions. But life is more distressing than logic. And what
is the alternative? Perhaps one day the critics will produce one. If
they can suggest one that is even faintly credible, they will deserve
more public attention than they are likely to get by making charges of
suppression that are more than faintly ridiculous."

-- Lord Devlin; circa late 1964 / early 1965

http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/history/wc_period/reactions_to_warren_report/Support_from_center/Death_of_a_president--Devlin.html


Via the above excerpts, it sure sounds to me as if Lord Devlin thinks
Lee Harvey Oswald, by himself, killed John F. Kennedy.

[David Von Pein]

On October 15, 2012, while attempting to acquire still more
information about the "12" in the postmark on Oswald's envelope, I
sought the opinion of a man with whom I recently became "friends" at
Facebook, Jimmy Orr, who not only has a great interest in the JFK
assassination, but who is also, coincidentally, a supervisor for the
United States Postal Service. Here is my conversation with Mr. Orr:

Hi Jimmy,

I just noticed that you are a Manager/Supervisor at the U.S. Postal
Service, which is an occupation that comes in mighty handy when
discussing the topic at the link provided in this post. And since
you're also interested in the JFK assassination, you would be the
perfect person to add your USPS expertise to this topic. I've had
several people from the "Post Mark Collectors Club" and the "Machine
Cancel Society" chime in with their views, but there doesn't seem to
be a definitive answer (yet). Here's the discussion:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2012/08/the-postmark-on-commission-exhibit-773.html

David Von Pein
October 15, 2012

================================

http://www.facebook.com/jimmy.orr.54

JIMMY ORR SAID:

At first glance, David . . . the postmark seems to be of a Model G
flyer, of which we still use one in Greenville [South Carolina] to
this day. An electric machine, it probably dates to the 1930's, but is
still useful to cancel heavy, non-automation pieces.

There would have been absolutely NO local zone classification for
cancellations in 1963, as there are absolutely none to date on this
equipment. The number 12, most assuredly, would have indicated a
machine number at the processing plant in Dallas. Nothing more,
nothing less. I have been with USPS for 29 years now. Nothing on a
postmark other than city, state, and zip code has EVER indicated an
origination.

[The] MPO [Main Post Office] in Dallas would have typically had a
large workroom area with multiple flyer machines in 1963. It is also
quite probable that they had as many as twelve mechanized Mark II
cancellation machines. The dies would be nearly identical and would
merely indicate the machine number. I believe, firmly, that no
conclusion can be drawn about the origin of the letter within the
Dallas community by observing the postmark.

Also David, the time of 10:30 [which is also stamped on Commission
Exhibit 773] would indicate the 'clearance' time for delivery.
Anything before 10:30 would constitute next day service. That which
was received later would not. There would have been ABSOLUTELY no
changing of the dies to reflect what time the letter was
received . . . with the letter volume of 1963 as compared to today's
internet generation . . . the notion is ludicrous . . . cancellations
in Dallas at the time were probably upwards of 300,000 letters per
day.

==============================

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Thank you very much, Jimmy. The information you have provided is very
helpful indeed. And doubly so, considering it comes from a 29-year
veteran of the United States Postal Service. I very much appreciate
your valuable assistance on this matter.

[David Von Pein]

More Follow-ups concerning CE773:

-------------

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Hi again Jimmy [Orr],

I'd like to get a clarification if I could about this statement you

made earlier. You said:

"There would have been absolutely NO local zone classification for

cancellations in 1963. .... I have been with USPS for 29 years now.

Nothing on a postmark other than city, state, and zip code has EVER
indicated an origination."

I'm curious to know how you know for a fact that "there would have

been absolutely NO local zone classification for cancellations in

1963"? Since you started working for the USPS in 1983, which was years
after Zip Codes came into existence, it's obvious that you would have
never seen any postmark with a "Postal Zone" code attached to it in
these last 29 years.

I'll also point you to the following quote from a Mr. A.J. Savakis of
the "Machine Cancel Society":

"It [the "12" on Oswald's envelope] could be a postal zone OR a
machine number OR a dial given to a specific postal worker to work a
machine OR represents a special tour of processing mail at a special
point OR any other representation decided by the Dallas postal
authorities. I can't rule it out."

So, Mr. Savakis seems to think that the "12" in the 1963 Dallas
postmark could be a postal zone after all. I'm just trying to pin down
a definitive answer on this matter, if that's possible to do. But, as
you can see, there are some disagreements--even among people who
belong to organizations specializing in all things relating to
postmarks.

Any further observations or information you can provide would be, as
always, appreciated.

Thanks.

DVP


================================


JIMMY ORR SAID:

David,

True that I have managed a USPS cancellation unit for more years now
than I care to remember and it is true that my remarks were made in
good faith.

In the very beginning I was accustomed to the exact equipment that
would have been used in Dallas in 1963, and I had folks in my unit who
were 'veterans' of that postal era. None of the above precludes the
possibility that my reasoning might be erroneous. I firmly believe
that I am right, but I will do a little investigating of my own now
and get back to you as soon as possible.

Sincerely, J.


================================


JIMMY ORR ADDED:

Just a further note:

My hometown of Greenville [South Carolina] has zip codes that were
established when zip first came into existence in the 1960's. The
codes denote sub-stations in Greenville. Station A, Station B,
Parkplace, Federal Station, Berea Branch, etc.

When the carriers assigned to each of these stations return in the
afternoon, everything is consolidated and trucked to the Sectional
Center Facility, or SCF, as it was known for most of my years and
those previous to my tenure. In this facility (such as in downtown
Dallas) the whole was 'cancelled' in one large workfloor space and
trayed for manual or machine distribution. It is extremely unlikely to
me that this particular mailpiece could have ever been traced back to
a certain municipal or surburban area of Dallas once it was dropped in
the mailbox.

By contrast, as much as things have changed, I think they still tend
to stay the same; somewhat. I have four automated advanced facer
canceller machines running to date in Greenville, and by the postal
indicia stamp killer bars, I cannot tell you where in Greenville the
piece was mailed from, but I can tell you which one of my machines
cancelled the stamp.

It is my professional opinion that the number 12 designates either a
mechanized flyer or perhaps even the more advanced mechanical
canceller, the Mark II. There is nothing logical to me that would
assign the number to a point of origination or to a particular postal
operator. It just doesn't make any sense to me. However, as I said, we
are onto something here, and I will investigate it further, for my own
peace of mind.


================================


DAVID VON PEIN ADDED:

Thanks very much, Jimmy.


-----------------

Full Discussion:
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2012/08/the-postmark-on-commission-exhibit-773.html

[David Von Pein]

JIMMY ORR SAID:

David, to cut to the chase . . . it IS my professional opinion that
the letter was cancelled at the Dallas Main Post Office. The number 12
merely indicates a Model G flyer (much like a Singer sewing machine)
or a Mark II unit at the Main Office.

I cannot tell you where it was dropped into a mail slot, could have
been downtown or might have been in Oak Cliff. Delivery zones are for
delivery, there is no such designation for collections. Few living
souls actually realize what 100,000 letters look like, much less how
the tooth-fairy sorts them all out. Dallas City was by 1963 shipping
everything to the SCF. It would not have been practical, nor plausable
to run a cancellation unit in every nook and cranny of the city and
suburbs.


================================


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

There is no doubt (per Dallas Postal Inspector Harry D. Holmes' Warren
Commission testimony) that Oswald purchased the $21.45 money order for
his mail-order rifle at the Main Post Office in Dallas. That's
evidently an ironclad fact. Therefore, it stands to reason that he
dropped it in the mail while he was right there inside the post office
on March 12, 1963 (which is the date on the money order and on the
postmark).

The two main "Post Office"-related arguments that conspiracy theorists
have made over the years relating to this particular envelope and mail-
order transaction are:

1.) If the "12" on the envelope represents postal zone #12 for the
city of Dallas, which apparently was located miles from the Main Post
Office, then why did Oswald walk miles out of his way to mail the
letter when he could have mailed it right there at the Main Post
Office? But this argument is pretty much debunked by these words
written by Jimmy Orr: "I cannot tell you where it was dropped into a
mail slot, could have been downtown or might have been in Oak Cliff.
Delivery zones are for delivery, there is no such designation for
collections."

2.) How did Oswald's letter get all the way to Chicago in just 24
hours? It was stamped with a "10:30 AM" postmark on 3/12/63, and
Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago received it and processed the order
for the mail-order rifle the very
next day (per Waldman Exhibit No. 7, which plainly shows a stamped
date of
"Mar. 13, '63" at the top of that internal Klein's invoice).

You, Jimmy, being in the postal industry for so many years, can
probably also provide some good information concerning that second
argument made by the conspiracy theorists.

I have no doubt whatsoever in my own mind that Oswald's letter did, in
fact, reach Chicago from Dallas in just one day--departing Dallas on
the morning of March 12, and arriving in Klein's hands in Chicago
sometime on March 13. Every scrap of evidence indicates it DID happen
that way. We must also consider the fact that Oswald mailed the letter
via Air Mail too. Wouldn't that have sped things up quite a bit (circa
1963)?

Jimmy, in your experience, in general, how long does it take an air
mail letter to go from Dallas, Texas, to Chicago, Illinois (provided
the letter was mailed no later than 10:30 AM local Dallas time)?

[David Von Pein]

JIMMY ORR SAID:

I regret that I disappoint you, David. But when you try to ascertain
who mailed their boss a letter bomb or a sack of shit via USPS you
might understand the frustration.

I worked in local law enforcement for eight years prior to my postal
career. It is no small wonder to me that the mystery of the 'anthrax'
letters has never been solved, nor the ricin incident at my own
facility in Greenville and at the White House.

Terms such as Cancellation, Processing, Origin, and Delivery are as
different as night and day in the postal world. It is a complex
network.

I certainly believe that Oswald bought the money order at the Dallas
Terminal Annex Facility. I firmly believe that he mailed the envelope
there and that the same was cancelled there perhaps by an antiquated
flyer given the mystic number 12.

Conspiracy's argument that a delivery zone designation constitutes a
point of origin makes no goddamned sense to me. The Zip Code was
implemented in 1963 as a delivery device. While in modern perspective
it is used in conjunction with indicia to indicate origin, I have as
yet to find such to be the case in a historical perspective. In short,
they either printed the goddamned town or station name on the
cancellation die or not . . . . Hence, what does Dallas, Tex mean to
you ? :)

=========================================

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

When I did I ever give you the impression that I am "disappointed" in
you regarding this matter, Jimmy? Quite the contrary. I greatly
appreciate the time you've taken to explain a lot of this USPS stuff.
Each post you've made concerning this topic has been quite valuable.

In point of fact, though, all of this talk about the "12" on Oswald's
envelope is relatively unimportant in the larger scheme of things
relating to the JFK assassination, because the physical evidence
proves, beyond all reasonable doubt, that Lee Harvey Oswald positively
did mail that money order and rifle coupon to Klein's Sporting Goods
in Chicago on 3/12/63. And the evidence further proves, beyond all
doubt, that Klein's received that exact envelope in the mail by March
13, 1963.

But the loony conspiracy theorists aren't satisfied at all with
PHYSICAL evidence all over the place that proves, for all time, that
Oswald ordered, paid for, and was shipped Carcano rifle #C2766. The
conspiracists want to pretend that ALL of the documents associated
with that rifle purchase are phony and fraudulent. That's how bad it
is in the JFK "research community". Pretty soon, I imagine they'll
have Jack Ruby actually ordering the gun instead of "Hidell"/Oswald,
and they'll have Ruby planting it on the sixth floor too.

I'll ask this question again, since you might have missed it the first
time:

Jimmy Orr, in your experience, in general, how long does it take an

air mail letter to go from Dallas, Texas, to Chicago, Illinois
(provided the letter was mailed no later than 10:30 AM local Dallas
time)?

Thanks.

[David Von Pein]

David Von Pein said:

Jimmy Orr, in your experience, in general, how long does it take an
air mail letter to go from Dallas, Texas, to Chicago, Illinois
(provided the letter was mailed no later than 10:30 AM local Dallas
time)?

Jimmy Orr said:

David, Cancelled in Dallas by 10:30 AM and flown to Chicago that
afternoon. Arrival for mail processing at a Chicago General Mail
Facility during the early morning hours of the 13th and on the street
for delivery to Klein's that same day. Makes perfect sense considering
the volumes handled in 1963.


David Von Pein said:

Thank you again, Jimmy. That's exactly what I hoped to hear from you
regarding the next-day delivery.

[David Von Pein]

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

A related topic for USPS manager Jimmy Orr (regarding the application
forms filled out by Lee Harvey Oswald for Dallas Post Office Box No.
2915):

Any thoughts, Jimmy O., about the controversy discussed in the article
linked below? ....

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/07/post-office-applications.html

===================================

JIMMY ORR SAID:

The subject of whether Hidell was on the [post office box] application
or not is irrelevant. Post Office Window Clerks do not reference
applications when delivering parcels across the counter. Not even by
today's security standards.

If Oswald was required to sign for the delivery, he simply produced a
DD-217 bearing the name ALEK JAMES HIDELL. We are talking about a
moment in time when there was no such thing as a picture ID, and a
driver's license was little more than an engraved metal dog tag. My
first law enforcement credentials in South Carolina during the mid
1970's did not bear a photograph.

The handwriting analysis performed is sufficient alone to indicate him
as to the box rental and the order of the rifle. Also, the
interpretation of Postal Regulation varies from office to office.
There is generally no prescribed enforcement, not then, and not now.

[aeffects]

On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 1:24:44 PM UTC-7, David Von Pein wrote:
> David Von Pein said:
>
>
>
> Jimmy Orr, in your experience, in general, how long does it take an
>
> air mail letter to go from Dallas, Texas, to Chicago, Illinois
>
> (provided the letter was mailed no later than 10:30 AM local Dallas
>
> time)?
>
>
>
>
>
> Jimmy Orr said:
>
>
>
> David, Cancelled in Dallas by 10:30 AM and flown to Chicago that
>
> afternoon. Arrival for mail processing at a Chicago General Mail
>
> Facility during the early morning hours of the 13th and on the street
>
> for delivery to Klein's that same day. Makes perfect sense considering
>
> the volumes handled in 1963.

bullshit.... 3 days NORMAL. Special Delivery 2 days, and that's a big maybe! Where do you find these dweebs Von Pein? You running scared, A-G-A-I-N?

[David Von Pein]

>>> "bullshit.... 3 days NORMAL. Special Delivery 2 days, and that's a big maybe!" <<<

Double bullshit back at ya, Stoner.

Air Mail (circa 1963; mailed in the morning) -- One day from Dallas to
Chicago. Easily.

And regardless of what USPS employee Jimmy Orr told me about the
delivery times, we KNOW for a fact that Oswald's mail got to Chicago
in just one day. There's hard evidence that proves it for all time
(CE773 coupled with Waldman No. 7).

Now, back to the bottle/needle you go, Healy.

[aeffects]

can't blame your current addiction to deep fried chickie-poo, perv.
And your postal delievery times are pure lone nut fabrication. If
standard special delivery can't meet your bullshit times what makes
you think 1st class mail can make those times constraints, dipshit
asshole? You on crack, dipso?

[Sam McClung]

you'll have to forgive his sales talk puffery, he served with the colonel...

[Ben Holmes]

In article <1b0ba183-fc99-4fd2...@ro10g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>,
aeffects says...
>
>On Oct 17, 2:02=A0pm, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:
>> >>> "bullshit.... 3 days NORMAL. Special Delivery 2 days, and that's a bi=

>g maybe!" <<<
>>
>> Double bullshit back at ya, Stoner.
>>
>> Air Mail (circa 1963; mailed in the morning) -- One day from Dallas to
>> Chicago. Easily.
>>
>> And regardless of what USPS employee Jimmy Orr told me about the
>> delivery times, we KNOW for a fact that Oswald's mail got to Chicago
>> in just one day. There's hard evidence that proves it for all time
>> (CE773 coupled with Waldman No. 7).
>>
>> Now, back to the bottle/needle you go, Healy.
>
>can't blame your current addiction to deep fried chickie-poo, perv.
>And your postal delievery times are pure lone nut fabrication. If
>standard special delivery can't meet your bullshit times what makes
>you think 1st class mail can make those times constraints, dipshit
>asshole? You on crack, dipso?

It's always amusing to see what the kooks pretend to believe.

One day from Dallas to Chicago? In a postal dream...


--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ben Holmes
Learn to Make Money with a Website - http://www.burningknife.com

[Walt]

Von Pea Brain hasn't lost it ( his mind )..... He never had one to
lose.....

[Bud]

On Oct 18, 12:10 pm, Ben Holmes <ad...@burningknife.com> wrote:
> In article <1b0ba183-fc99-4fd2-8dcb-8dcc04691...@ro10g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>,

> aeffects says...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Oct 17, 2:02=A0pm, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:
> >> >>> "bullshit.... 3 days NORMAL. Special Delivery 2 days, and that's a bi=
> >g maybe!" <<<
>
> >> Double bullshit back at ya, Stoner.
>
> >> Air Mail (circa 1963; mailed in the morning) -- One day from Dallas to
> >> Chicago. Easily.
>
> >> And regardless of what USPS employee Jimmy Orr told me about the
> >> delivery times, we KNOW for a fact that Oswald's mail got to Chicago
> >> in just one day. There's hard evidence that proves it for all time
> >> (CE773 coupled with Waldman No. 7).
>
> >> Now, back to the bottle/needle you go, Healy.
>
> >can't blame your current addiction to deep fried chickie-poo, perv.
> >And your postal delievery times are pure lone nut fabrication. If
> >standard special delivery can't meet your bullshit times what makes
> >you think 1st class mail can make those times constraints, dipshit
> >asshole? You on crack, dipso?
>
> It's always amusing to see what the kooks pretend to believe.
>
> One day from Dallas to Chicago? In a postal dream...

It`s always amusing that the retards claim to stick to the evidence,
but when it is cited and the evidence proves them wrong they have to
go to the "faked, forged and fabricated" well.

[David Von Pein]

Not that any conspiracy kook cares what Harry Holmes of the Postal
Service had to say (with all CTers wanting to pretend that Holmes was
a big fat liar), but Holmes actually seems to be saying in his WC
testimony that Oswald could have even mailed his letter to Chicago on
March 13 and it still could have reached Chicago on THAT SAME DAY
(March 13).

It's possible, though, that when Harry Holmes said "bought it that
morning", he might have only been referring to the morning when Holmes
knew that Oswald did buy the money order--March 12th. But this
testimony certainly looks like he's saying that Oswald could have sent
his rifle order from Dallas to Chicago on March 13 (via air mail) and
have it arrive in Chicago on that very same day--March 13:

"I relayed this information to them and told them to start on
the 13th because he could have bought it that morning and that he
could have gotten it by airmail that afternoon." -- Harry D. Holmes

[David Von Pein]

Sometimes sources of information can come from the funniest places.
Like the following audio clip from an episode of Groucho Marx's quiz
show "You Bet Your Life". Groucho is interviewing a contestant who
works for a helicopter Air Mail service in Los Angeles. The contestant
is talking about how it's possible to mail a letter in California
"tonight" and have that letter arrive in New York "tomorrow morning".

And keep in mind that the date of this Groucho Marx show is January 9,
1952, which is 11 years before Lee Harvey Oswald had his mail travel
the 802 miles from Dallas to Chicago, which is many fewer miles than
the California-to-New York journey discussed during the Groucho
excerpt. And it's also SIX YEARS before jet aircraft became a
commonplace mode of transportation in the United States.

So the next-day mail service being discussed in this 1952 Groucho clip
was certainly being accomplished via slower, propeller-driven aircraft
and helicopters (when compared to the type of faster air mail service
that was very likely being utilized when Oswald sent his order form to
Klein's Sporting Goods in the year 1963).

http://www.box.com/s/efa74dw67xv2t372npky

Funny, isn't it? The places you can find useful information. :-)

[David Von Pein]

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/browse_thread/thread/3bb2239ca578ae80/9e8ed566df440828?#9e8ed566df440828


TONY MARSH SAID:

>>> "Is all this nonsense to refute one kook who doubts that his order could get there the next day?" <<<


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

It's not just "one kook", Tony. There are many CTers who believe that
it was physically impossible for Oswald's rifle order to get to
Chicago in 24 hours, despite the ironclad proof that it did make the
trip from Dallas to Chicago in one day's time in March of 1963. And
that proof is CE773 in conjunction with Waldman Exhibit No. 7.

http://www.box.com/s/efa74dw67xv2t372npky

I just happened to stumble across the Groucho Marx audio excerpt
(above) featuring the contestant who talked about next-day coast-to-
coast mail service, so I decided to use it as an extra layer of
corroboration to support the idea that a piece of U.S. mail can travel
great distances in just 24 hours (or less) -- even in 1952. And I
utilized USPS employee Jimmy Orr's remarks as further corroboration as
well.

[timstter]

On Oct 19, 3:10 am, Ben Holmes <ad...@burningknife.com> wrote:
> In article <1b0ba183-fc99-4fd2-8dcb-8dcc04691...@ro10g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>,

Worked out that there IS an index in the WCR yet, Yellow Pants?

Certainly about time you DID!

[aeffects]

On Oct 18, 6:32 am, "Sam McClung" <mccl...@newsguy.com> wrote:
> you'll have to forgive his sales talk puffery, he served with the colonel...

lmfao!

Jesus Sam, I got deepfry oil all over the place....

[aeffects]

On Oct 18, 1:08 pm, Bud <sirsl...@fast.net> wrote:
> On Oct 18, 12:10 pm, Ben Holmes <ad...@burningknife.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article <1b0ba183-fc99-4fd2-8dcb-8dcc04691...@ro10g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>,
> > aeffects says...
>
> > >On Oct 17, 2:02=A0pm, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:
> > >> >>> "bullshit.... 3 days NORMAL. Special Delivery 2 days, and that's a bi=
> > >g maybe!" <<<
>
> > >> Double bullshit back at ya, Stoner.
>
> > >> Air Mail (circa 1963; mailed in the morning) -- One day from Dallas to
> > >> Chicago. Easily.
>
> > >> And regardless of what USPS employee Jimmy Orr told me about the
> > >> delivery times, we KNOW for a fact that Oswald's mail got to Chicago
> > >> in just one day. There's hard evidence that proves it for all time
> > >> (CE773 coupled with Waldman No. 7).
>
> > >> Now, back to the bottle/needle you go, Healy.
>
> > >can't blame your current addiction to deep fried chickie-poo, perv.
> > >And your postal delievery times are pure lone nut fabrication. If
> > >standard special delivery can't meet your bullshit times what makes
> > >you think 1st class mail can make those times constraints, dipshit
> > >asshole? You on crack, dipso?
>
> > It's always amusing to see what the kooks pretend to believe.
>
> > One day from Dallas to Chicago? In a postal dream...
>
>   It`s always amusing that the retards claim to stick to the evidence,

sheeeeet not only claimed it ya lone nut dipso, when it comes to the
postal of '63, a few of us lived it... we understand along about that
time though the best part of Von pein was running down his daddy's
leg...

> but when it is cited and the evidence proves them wrong they have to
> go to the "faked, forged and fabricated" well.

the best you can prove there Dud is JFK was assassinated on the good
streets of Dallas Texas on 11/22/63. That's the ONLY thing the WCR got
right. So the dismantling of that bogus WC report has been going on
for nearly 50 years there dudster. Where the hell have YOU been?

[timstter]

Wow, well YOU'VE certainly done a good job of knocking the WCR down
with you <snicker> *command* of *case evidence* over the years, Dave/
Ringo.

Figured out that the victim's name was NOT John Francis Kennedy yet,
Dave/Ringo?

It would HARDLY be surprising if you hadn't, Dave/Ringo.

Hardly surprising at all.

[Bud]

Here trying to divest you retards from your delusions.

[aeffects]

glad you got out of the litigation end of the business--phew!

[timstter]

> And yet here IS WC XVII 261-262, showing hits to the head...http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol...

>
> X marks the spot where Mark Lane lied!

BUMP! YOO HOO! BENNY!

TB