What PC hardware diagnostic stress-testing freeware can you recommend?

[Arlen Holder]

What PC hardware diagnostic stress-testing freeware can you recommend?

o I have a random hardware related BSOD whose cause is unknown to me
<https://i.postimg.cc/9Q4m7tfM/bsod01.jpg>
<https://i.postimg.cc/DyNFnJcK/bsod02.jpg>
<https://i.postimg.cc/XYnhMnR0/bsod10.jpg>
<https://i.postimg.cc/T2mHpyG6/bsod13.jpg>
<https://i.postimg.cc/5t6s1ypD/bsod15.jpg>
<https://i.postimg.cc/T1X0r9GX/bsod16.jpg>
<https://i.postimg.cc/8khtTqBk/bsod18.jpg>
<https://i.postimg.cc/LsjxVzL2/bsod19.jpg>

I first ran the Windows memory diagnostic freeware to no avail:
<https://i.postimg.cc/d3xZzxrd/bsod24.jpg>
<https://i.postimg.cc/VvmczfBP/bsod25.jpg>
<https://i.postimg.cc/kMc0xdvD/bsod26.jpg>

As per the kind suggestions of "n/a" and others, I ran memtest86 freeware
on that old BIOS desktop in an attempt to identify its hardware faults:
<https://alt.comp.os.windows-10.narkive.com/oL7PTNKu/windows-10-bsod-indicates-a-hardware-problem-but-what-hardware-is-the-problem#post17>

The old BIOS desktop booted a 32GB Memtest86 USB stick to ran overnight,
finding no errors on 16GB RAM (I stopped it after 5 hours & 6 iterations):
<https://i.postimg.cc/KY1Yk4WP/memtest02.jpg>

If it's not the RAM, it's something else hardware related (the HDD has been
re-imaged multiple times in its entirety and all extraneous boards and
peripherals have been disconnected).

What other hardware diagnostic stress-testing freeware can you further recommend?
--
Usenet is a wonderfully public way to identify freeware of interest.

[Mike Easter]

Arlen Holder wrote:
> What PC hardware diagnostic stress-testing freeware can you recommend?

Before 'other' stress testing, but after the ram test, I would boot a
live linux to see how that ran. That might also discriminate between
the hdd and the mobo. My choice of linux distro would be based on what
kind of hardware resources I'm trying to look at.

> If it's not the RAM, it's something else hardware related (the HDD has been
> re-imaged multiple times in its entirety and all extraneous boards and
> peripherals have been disconnected).

I would boot the 'old-style' Hirens because it would show another OS
boot and it also has some utilities for looking at such as SMART.



--
Mike Easter

[Arlen Holder]

On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 10:49:23 -0700, Mike Easter wrote:

> Before 'other' stress testing, but after the ram test, I would boot a
> live linux to see how that ran. That might also discriminate between
> the hdd and the mobo. My choice of linux distro would be based on what
> kind of hardware resources I'm trying to look at.

Hi Mike,
Thanks for that purposefully helpful advice, as I'm well aware that posting
anything on Usenet opens us up to the risk of all sorts of issues.

It's my fault for not having mentioned it acted strangely when I tried
installing Ubuntu 18.04 five months ago, as described in this post:
<https://alt.comp.os.windows-10.narkive.com/oL7PTNKu/windows-10-bsod-indicates-a-hardware-problem-but-what-hardware-is-the-problem#post10>

For whatever reason, it hung up during the installation process:
<https://i.postimg.cc/2S0WN3Yh/bsod20.jpg>

It booted fine though on a live Ubuntu and on a live Tails DVD image.

I haven't remained on the "live" images long enough (only for a day or two)
for the random BSOD to be ruled out though, so it could be the HDD
electronics that is causing the random BSODs for all I know.

It "could" be the any hardware though, and I don't have a spare drive
to test it against. It would be nice to find a HDD hardware stress test.

Overall, what I seek is a PC hardware stress testing freeware suite.
o Does it even exist?
--
Usenet allows users to tap into help and advice from around the world.

[Mike Easter]

Arlen Holder wrote:
> It would be nice to find a HDD hardware stress test.

Start w/ the Hiren's SMART off USB boot.

https://www.hiren.info/pages/bootcd Hiren's BootCD 15.2
MHDD 4.6 manage S.M.A.R.T. (SMART) and other drive parameters
SmartUDM 2.00 Hard Disk Drive S.M.A.R.T. Viewer.
ViVard 1.0 HDD low-level diagnostics, Surface test with remap,
SMART-attributes etc.


--
Mike Easter

[Flasherly]

On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 11:59:26 -0700, Mike Easter <Mi...@ster.invalid>

wrote:

>> It would be nice to find a HDD hardware stress test.

They're called measurements within speeds and specifications from the
disk manufacturer. A competitive comparison is one which may be
inferred between differing measurements taken across a representative
of drive brands. Speed specifications are fixed to brand, (some hide
them, as will Western Digital, below an enterprise level corporate
product line), so deviance is less a matter of stress than to identify
factors why, perchance, they're might off the skew, e.g. types of MB
hardware controllers or software device configuration layering. In
ideal terms that's taken to mean duplicating the same hardware the
manufacturer uses to advertise specifications, or in more practical
terms being able to duplicate performance for the HDD's cost;- at a
contrary stand, for example, because a SSD advertises one speed and
some significant users see a third to two less is not unheard of.

A HDD is meant to be run within its intended mode and design, although
it is possible to deliberately fragment drives;- another is forgo a
speed vantage between intent for data placement at inner and outer
disk differentials.

None however pertains to stress. Accounting application, say between
high turnover WEB servers and a home multimedia constant storage, both
are expected to be run within reasonable constraints defragmentation
routines more or less are usual to assume. Beyond which, uncertainty
is an expression not of stress but expected failure predication, if
any, for data recovery purposes. NET drives are often found a result
in used market drive pulls, at some time usage factored for eminent
failure, in a latter estimate another user advances;- they're also
usual in that no indication of SMART errors are advertised as an added
condition of expected future reliability, nor, most certainly one not
of stipulation, is readily to give to buyers a prior stress
environment or condition in which they were placed prior.

Stress it, then, as you will. 30 or 90 days is to be expected until
the drive is "all stressed out, whether be then hell or back ever
again", whereupon a seller absolves himself, preferably long before
with pockets of profit on pulls, from further responsibility or
concerns of stressed-out buyer attempts to buy on the cheap.

It you want it nice, rather nicer, slide a little to one side for
shelling up on the big money memory in better SDD makes military
organizations buy. Competence means they don't stress and are
designed to last longer than others who often do and will fail, for
God presumably to sort out.

[Arlen Holder]

UPDATE:
Resetting the BIOS to default plus the settings below, is what I just did.

1. I replaced the CR2032 CMOS battery today, even though it didn't
indicate it was bad, but it reset the BIOS to August 2009 defaults.
(I cabled the two drives to the MB SATA0 & SATA1, respectively.)
o <https://i.postimg.cc/0Qnvy8t4/bsod-bios01.jpg>

2. With the new CMOS battery, the SATA Controller Mode defaulted to RAID
which I changed to IDE (I don't even know what AHCI is).
o <https://i.postimg.cc/QMpsvgch/bsod-bios02.jpg>

3. Long ago I pulled the Nvidia graphics card. The BIOS defaulted to
Primary Video Adapter = PCE-E x16, which I changed to "Onboard".
o <https://i.postimg.cc/4NSJcxJk/bsod-bios03.jpg>

4. There is a "After AC Power Failure" option, which I set to "Stay Off".
o <https://i.postimg.cc/hvCKpSTm/bsod-bios04.jpg>

Like a Covid vaccine, I don't expect these settings to do much,
but perhaps they won't hurt.

In summary, I get the BSOD every couple of days, where sometimes I have to
repair the boot with a Win10 DVD and sometimes I don't have to repair it.

It's not the memory - but some other hardware, as yet unknown to me.
Resetting the BIOS to default plus the settings above, is what I just did.

[Arlen Holder]

On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 11:59:26 -0700, Mike Easter wrote:

> Start w/ the Hiren's SMART off USB boot.
>
> https://www.hiren.info/pages/bootcd Hiren's BootCD 15.2
> MHDD 4.6 manage S.M.A.R.T. (SMART) and other drive parameters
> SmartUDM 2.00 Hard Disk Drive S.M.A.R.T. Viewer.
> ViVard 1.0 HDD low-level diagnostics, Surface test with remap,
> SMART-attributes etc.

Hi Mike,
Thanks for that purposefully helpful advice, where you have no idea how
miserable it has been to try to obtain the "correct" Hirens Boot CD.

First off, I don't think that page is the right page (it's confusing and
it doesn't seem to be the canonical page anyway); but a search found what I
"think" is the canonical Hirens web page:
o <http://www.hirensbootcd.org/download/>

From there, I can find a ton of confusing download links, e.g.,
<https://www.hirensbootcd.org/files/HBCD_PE_x64.iso>
<http://www.hirensbootcd.org/files/Hirens.BootCD.15.2.zip>
And older versions:
<https://www.hirensbootcd.org/category/old-versions/>

One simple question that seems to be difficult to find the answer to is
which versions of Hiren's Boot CD will work with BIOS (not UEFI) PCs.

Does anyone know where that answer lies?
--
I'll keep looking but that's where I'm at a momentary impasse here.

[Arlen Holder]

On Tue, 8 Sep 2020 23:36:28 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder wrote:

> One simple question that seems to be difficult to find the answer to is
> which versions of Hiren's Boot CD will work with BIOS (not UEFI) PCs.

The documentation, for a noob, on this Hiren's stuff is miserable.

For example, there is no indication whatsoever (yet) whether this
Hirens Boot CD will work with a BIOS (not UEFI) PC (or not).

For example, this page says it works with UEFI, which is fine,
but it doesn't say whether or not it will work with BIOS.
<https://www.hirensbootcd.org/usb-booting/>
"Hiren¢s BootCD PE supports UEFI booting from DVD and USB flash drives."

There's nothing about BIOS booting in the FAQs either:
<https://www.hirensbootcd.org/faq/>

Nor in the HOWTOs:
<https://www.hirensbootcd.org/howtos/>

Basically, it's all blindfolded trial and error with this Hiren stuff.

I'm sure if you already know the answers to everything, it's easy;
but if you aren't omnipotent, the Hiren's documentation is horrid.

I suspect, but that's just a guess, that the BIOS booting is on the
older software, but what version? There's absolutely no way to tell.

[Mike Easter]

Arlen Holder wrote:
> Mike Easter wrote:
>
>> Start w/ the Hiren's SMART off USB boot.
>>
>> https://www.hiren.info/pages/bootcd Hiren's BootCD 15.2
>> MHDD 4.6 manage S.M.A.R.T. (SMART) and other drive parameters
>> SmartUDM 2.00 Hard Disk Drive S.M.A.R.T. Viewer.
>> ViVard 1.0 HDD low-level diagnostics, Surface test with remap,
>> SMART-attributes etc.
>

> you have no idea how miserable it has been to try to obtain the
> "correct" Hirens Boot CD.
>

The link I provided above is a good link for what I pasted under it.

The best place to get the Hiren's of which I spoke is:
https://www.hirensbootcd.org/old-versions/

... as opposed to the PE Hiren's which is at the same site and I have no
personal experience. https://www.hirensbootcd.org/download/ HBCD_PE_x64.iso

> First off, I don't think that page is the right page (it's confusing and
> it doesn't seem to be the canonical page anyway); but a search found what I
> "think" is the canonical Hirens web page:
> o <http://www.hirensbootcd.org/download/>
>
> From there, I can find a ton of confusing download links, e.g.,
> <https://www.hirensbootcd.org/files/HBCD_PE_x64.iso>
> <http://www.hirensbootcd.org/files/Hirens.BootCD.15.2.zip>
> And older versions:
> <https://www.hirensbootcd.org/category/old-versions/>
>
> One simple question that seems to be difficult to find the answer to is
> which versions of Hiren's Boot CD will work with BIOS (not UEFI) PCs.
>
> Does anyone know where that answer lies?
>

I have booted the .iso which lives inside the Hirens.BootCD.15.2.zip on
both bios & uefi type systems.

I generally write my .iso/s w/ Rufus and I generally configure my UEFI's
to not have secure boot or to be both uefi and CSM legacy type bios.


--
Mike Easter

[Arlen Holder]

On Tue, 8 Sep 2020 18:21:11 -0700, Mike Easter wrote:

> I have booted the .iso which lives inside the Hirens.BootCD.15.2.zip on
> both bios & uefi type systems.
>
> I generally write my .iso/s w/ Rufus and I generally configure my UEFI's
> to not have secure boot or to be both uefi and CSM legacy type bios.

Thanks Mike, I appreciate your helpful intent.
o The first time I've ever seen "CSM" is in the Rufus, where I don't even
know what it is (I can look it up) but the point is that, without good
instructions, it's a clusterfuck of guesses (which means the documentation
for this Hirens stuff is utter frustratingly incomplete crapware, IMHO).

As far as I've been able to tell, the Hirens documentation is utterly atrocious,
IMHO, for a noob, who isn't omnipotent, where I assume BIOS & UEFI are completely
incompatible.

Note, for example, this ancient (6-year old) page says as much:
<https://superuser.com/questions/748007/hirens-boot-cd-with-uefi-support>

To spare other noobs the immense wasted time I've spent on this
Hirens stuff, simply due to the utter lack of clear instructions
with respect to BIOS vs UEFI, I've "started" to write a tutorial,
which I include below.

Note that EVERYTHING on that tutorial could be wrong, simply
because it's all trial and error, which is a really dumb way
of doing things, IMHO.

Anyway, here's the nascent tutorial, so that, as always,
everyone else doesn't have to waste their time trying to
figure such things out.

Note I had to cancel the Rufus build because it took forever so I have
to run this a few more times before I can even test it on the BIOS PC.
Tutorial for using Hirens Boot CD to debug hardware issues on Windows PCs
(As always, please improve so that all benefit from every action you take.)

1. Obtain an empty USB flash drive of at least 2GB of storage (8GB better).

2. Determine if your PC is BIOS or UEFI (mine is BIOS).
Set your BIOS boot order to boot first from the USB stick.

Create a directory for the BIOS & another for UEFI software:
mkdir use_this_for_UEFI_PCs
<https://www.hirensbootcd.org/files/HBCD_PE_x64.iso>
<https://github.com/pbatard/rufus/releases/download/v3.11/rufus-3.11.exe>

mkdir use_this_for_BIOS_PCs
<http://www.hirensbootcd.org/files/Hirens.BootCD.15.2.zip>
<https://github.com/pbatard/rufus/releases/download/v1.4.6/rufus-1.4.6.exe>

3. Go to the official Hiren web page:
<http://www.hirensbootcd.org/download/>

It's very confusing _which_ download works with BIOS (not UEFI) PCs.

I assume for UEFI, download from the link titled "HBCD_PE_x64.iso"
<https://www.hirensbootcd.org/files/HBCD_PE_x64.iso>
<http://mirror.sfo12.us.leaseweb.net/hirensbootcd/HBCD_PE_x64.iso>
Name: HBCD_PE_x64.iso
Size: 1354811392 bytes (1292 MiB)
SHA256: D67BCF0437A1BD27F31655C4A9C81C93269A5A239D43F38D0375618443D372BC

I assume for BIOS, download the older version 15.2 zip file:
<https://www.hirensbootcd.org/hbcd-v152/>
<http://www.hirensbootcd.org/files/Hirens.BootCD.15.2.zip>
<http://mirror.sfo12.us.leaseweb.net/hirensbootcd/Hirens.BootCD.15.2.zip>
Name: Hiren's.BootCD.15.2.iso
Size: 623890432 bytes (594 MiB)
SHA256: 7324626639093A24A20B4BB3245F735CBBA7021985614F75D57EB64F8FC75F89

For BIOS PCs, you may need other older versions of the Hirens Boot CD:
<https://www.hirensbootcd.org/category/old-versions/>

5. Download the Windows Rufus ISO-to-USB tool:
<https://rufus.ie/>

I assume for UEFI PCs, you download the latest version of Rufus:
<https://github.com/pbatard/rufus/releases/download/v3.11/rufus-3.11.exe>
Name: rufus-3.11.exe
Size: 1155640 bytes (1128 KiB)
SHA256: A43BF34285D393F843B05D80F74C4790ED7F6AC636393CA5F6375AE0BB02E719

I assume for BIOS PCs, you download an older version of Rufus (which one?):
<https://github.com/pbatard/rufus/releases/download/v1.4.6/rufus-1.4.6.exe>
Name: rufus-1.4.6.exe
Size: 591784 bytes (577 KiB)
SHA256: 609D17700AD8305830631EB5211DA239CB96AC19D91916CEE4C766F035454E29

6. Remove all USB drives & insert the empty USB flash drive into the PC.

7. Right click on the Rufus executable and run as administrator.
(This step takes at least a half hour to complete.)

For UEFI PCs, use Rufus 3.11.1678:
Device: (choose your empty USB stick drive letter and label)
Boot selection: (press the "SELECT" button to select "HBCD_PE_x64.iso"
Partition scheme: GPT (the only options are "GPT" and "MBR")
Target System: the only option is "UEFI (non CSM)"
Volume label: HBCD_PE_x64
File system: FAT32 (other choices are "NTFS" & "FAT")
Cluster size: 4096 bytes (Default)
If the Status says "READY", press the "START" button.
(I missed a few lines here in the log)
Creating file system: Task 2/5 completed.
Writing Master Boot Record
Copying ISO files:
(after two hours, I had to cancel and reboot & start over)

For BIOS PCs, use Rufus 1.4.6
(I need to put the instructions using the old software here.)

8. Boot your PC to the flash drive.
WIP

[Mike Easter]

Arlen Holder wrote:
> Mike Easter wrote:
>
>> I have booted the .iso which lives inside the Hirens.BootCD.15.2.zip on
>> both bios & uefi type systems.
>>
>> I generally write my .iso/s w/ Rufus and I generally configure my UEFI's
>> to not have secure boot or to be both uefi and CSM legacy type bios.
>
> Thanks Mike, I appreciate your helpful intent.

You are making this more complicated than necessary for 'our' original
target; boot Hiren's for its SMART functions to check the hdd.

You could also boot a live linux because it has a SMART tool. On my
system I can install smartmontools from my repo to get smart info.

That is, instead of hiren's you could boot a live linux, install the
smartmontools from its repo and check the hdd's SMART.

> o The first time I've ever seen "CSM" is in the Rufus, where I don't even
> know what it is (I can look it up) but the point is that, without good
> instructions, it's a clusterfuck of guesses (which means the documentation
> for this Hirens stuff is utter frustratingly incomplete crapware, IMHO).
>
> As far as I've been able to tell, the Hirens documentation is utterly atrocious,
> IMHO, for a noob, who isn't omnipotent, where I assume BIOS & UEFI are completely
> incompatible.
>

No; UEFI typically has CSM which makes it legacy BIOS compatible.

> Note, for example, this ancient (6-year old) page says as much:
> <https://superuser.com/questions/748007/hirens-boot-cd-with-uefi-support>
>
> To spare other noobs the immense wasted time I've spent on this
> Hirens stuff, simply due to the utter lack of clear instructions
> with respect to BIOS vs UEFI, I've "started" to write a tutorial,
> which I include below.
>
> Note that EVERYTHING on that tutorial could be wrong, simply
> because it's all trial and error, which is a really dumb way
> of doing things, IMHO.
>
> Anyway, here's the nascent tutorial, so that, as always,
> everyone else doesn't have to waste their time trying to
> figure such things out.
>
> Note I had to cancel the Rufus build because it took forever so I have
> to run this a few more times before I can even test it on the BIOS PC.

Rufus 'build'? If you mean rufus write the .iso to USB, rufus is faster
than other such tools.

> Tutorial for using Hirens Boot CD to debug hardware issues on Windows PCs
> (As always, please improve so that all benefit from every action you take.)
>
> 1. Obtain an empty USB flash drive of at least 2GB of storage (8GB better).
>
> 2. Determine if your PC is BIOS or UEFI (mine is BIOS).
> Set your BIOS boot order to boot first from the USB stick.
>

What follows (previously) is unnecessary for what I was recommending.
Snipped

I was recommending the Hiren's BootCD 15.2; NOT the PE Hiren's which I'm
not familiar.

<snip directory stuff>

> > 3. Go to the official Hiren web page:
> <http://www.hirensbootcd.org/download/>
>
> It's very confusing _which_ download works with BIOS (not UEFI) PCs.
>

Hiren's BootCD 15.2 works w/ BIOS. To save some discussion, let's don't
talk about the PE Hirens nor UEFI.

> I assume for UEFI, download from the link titled "HBCD_PE_x64.iso"
> <https://www.hirensbootcd.org/files/HBCD_PE_x64.iso>
> <http://mirror.sfo12.us.leaseweb.net/hirensbootcd/HBCD_PE_x64.iso>
> Name: HBCD_PE_x64.iso
> Size: 1354811392 bytes (1292 MiB)
> SHA256: D67BCF0437A1BD27F31655C4A9C81C93269A5A239D43F38D0375618443D372BC
>

I guess so; I would rather only talk about what I have experience; no PE
Hirens.

> I assume for BIOS, download the older version 15.2 zip file:
> <https://www.hirensbootcd.org/hbcd-v152/>
> <http://www.hirensbootcd.org/files/Hirens.BootCD.15.2.zip>
> <http://mirror.sfo12.us.leaseweb.net/hirensbootcd/Hirens.BootCD.15.2.zip>
> Name: Hiren's.BootCD.15.2.iso
> Size: 623890432 bytes (594 MiB)
> SHA256: 7324626639093A24A20B4BB3245F735CBBA7021985614F75D57EB64F8FC75F89
>

Yes.

> For BIOS PCs, you may need other older versions of the Hirens Boot CD:
> <https://www.hirensbootcd.org/category/old-versions/>
>

No. But some old v. are 'interesting'. In past years Hiren's didn't do
much respect for 'non-freeware', but in recent years Hiren's has done a
much better job of respecting copyright issues.

> 5. Download the Windows Rufus ISO-to-USB tool:
> <https://rufus.ie/>
>
> I assume for UEFI PCs, you download the latest version of Rufus:
> <https://github.com/pbatard/rufus/releases/download/v3.11/rufus-3.11.exe>
> Name: rufus-3.11.exe
> Size: 1155640 bytes (1128 KiB)
> SHA256: A43BF34285D393F843B05D80F74C4790ED7F6AC636393CA5F6375AE0BB02E719
>

Rufus 3.11 looks at the .iso which has been selected to write; what it
sees in the .iso determines whether Rufus menu says "BIOS or UEFI" or
"BIOS or UEFI-CSM" depending on the .iso itself.

In the case of the Hiren's .iso I refer above, Rufus only offers bios or
uefi-csm, ie that .iso is not for UEFI systems. I understand the PE is,
but I don't know anything about that system and I wasn't referring to it
in my OP in this thread.

> I assume for BIOS PCs, you download an older version of Rufus (which one?):
> <https://github.com/pbatard/rufus/releases/download/v1.4.6/rufus-1.4.6.exe>
> Name: rufus-1.4.6.exe
> Size: 591784 bytes (577 KiB)
> SHA256: 609D17700AD8305830631EB5211DA239CB96AC19D91916CEE4C766F035454E29
>

Nononono

> 6. Remove all USB drives & insert the empty USB flash drive into the PC.
>
> 7. Right click on the Rufus executable and run as administrator.
> (This step takes at least a half hour to complete.)
>
> For UEFI PCs, use Rufus 3.11.1678:
> Device: (choose your empty USB stick drive letter and label)
> Boot selection: (press the "SELECT" button to select "HBCD_PE_x64.iso"
> Partition scheme: GPT (the only options are "GPT" and "MBR")
> Target System: the only option is "UEFI (non CSM)"
> Volume label: HBCD_PE_x64
> File system: FAT32 (other choices are "NTFS" & "FAT")
> Cluster size: 4096 bytes (Default)
> If the Status says "READY", press the "START" button.
> (I missed a few lines here in the log)
> Creating file system: Task 2/5 completed.
> Writing Master Boot Record
> Copying ISO files:
> (after two hours, I had to cancel and reboot & start over)
>

I suppose so; never did it.

> For BIOS PCs, use Rufus 1.4.6
> (I need to put the instructions using the old software here.)
>

Absolutely not.

> 8. Boot your PC to the flash drive.
> WIP
>

--
Mike Easter

[Mike Easter]

Mike Easter wrote:
> I have booted the .iso which lives inside the Hirens.BootCD.15.2.zip on
> both bios & uefi type systems.
>
> I generally write my .iso/s w/ Rufus and I generally configure my UEFI's
> to not have secure boot or to be both uefi and CSM legacy type bios.

In case that UEFI business above is ambiguous; leave out 'generally'.

I configure my UEFI to NOT have secure boot AND to be both UEFI and CSM,
not ONLY UEFI. That is because for booting linux .iso/s from USB, it is
more 'comprehensive' to enable both; that way I can also boot a linux
which .iso was NOT written to do UEFI, but only BIOS or UEFI-CSM.

Some linux .iso/s are UEFI, some are not.

Xiao Guoan, ie LinuxBabe, has a nice little article about linux & UEFI.

https://www.linuxbabe.com/desktop-linux/legacy-bios-vs-uefi-bios
Explaining UEFI Firmware for Linux Users

--
Mike Easter

[Flasherly]

On Tue, 8 Sep 2020 18:21:11 -0700, Mike Easter <Mi...@ster.invalid>
wrote:

>I generally write my .iso/s w/ Rufus and I generally configure my UEFI's
>to not have secure boot or to be both uefi and CSM legacy type bios.

Slick. Have several ISOs, various live OS, including HIREM, on
flashdrive boot sequences, No UEFI considerations as yet. Rufus, I'd
have to go over the boot flashdrive to review its a somewhat
complicated construction/configuration, including (if coincidental to
RUFUS) WindowsBootGenius as installs. Later modified OS installs,
backups, are handled with GHS split files created with Symantec Ghost
Enterprise, abandoned commercial rightcopyware.

Up to Win7 and slipstreaming Microsoft distributions, which can run to
some not inconsiderable editing (contributing technical editors have
published their examples of exclusions on) MS bloat, once down to near
but slightly larger XP levels, for a further potential of under a
minute SSD<>SSD OS GHS files, I've confirmed by restoration levels.
Discounting of course time to boot to alternative OS partition
(DOS/IBM), under a minute only, that is, for restoring GHS (to write
w/compression not much more) to OS status, added reboot or
reinitialize rewritten OS and any subsequent time to tweak what's not
already accounted in GHS imagery.

Not quite the nightmare of an OS developmental platform, hardware and
overall resources, for program authors running congruent operating
systems simultaneously from LINUX/Solaris and/sub Windows for testing
purposes. Excluding costs hardware and freeware limitations, just
perhaps for accessibility the next best thing (at under a minute OS
rewrites vis GRUB or another). I'm not sure I could handle a likes of
Acronis after Symantec Ghost. No small shame to abandon Ghost when it
had reached that level of sophistication.

http://www.sevenforums.com/tutorials/
145343-slipstream-windows-7-sp1-into-installation-dvd-iso-file.html

[Arlen Holder]

On Tue, 8 Sep 2020 20:03:16 -0700, Mike Easter wrote:

> Rufus 3.11 looks at the .iso which has been selected to write; what it
> sees in the .iso determines whether Rufus menu says "BIOS or UEFI" or
> "BIOS or UEFI-CSM" depending on the .iso itself.
>
> In the case of the Hiren's .iso I refer above, Rufus only offers bios or
> uefi-csm, ie that .iso is not for UEFI systems. I understand the PE is,
> but I don't know anything about that system and I wasn't referring to it
> in my OP in this thread.

Hi Mike,

I appreciate your help.

We're working in parallel, so I'm finding out (the hard way) the stuff
you're telling me - so please be patient as I'm not on Usenet while I'm
booting and setting the BIOS up to boot from the USB stick.

Anyway, you're right.

The HBCD_PE_x64.iso/Rufus 3.11 did NOT boot on my BIOS box:
<https://i.postimg.cc/2ykDXjW6/hiren01.jpg>

At least it didn't work with BIOS using the _default_ Rufus 3.11 settings:
o Boot selection:
(Choices are: "Disk or ISO image", "FreeDOS", "Non bootable")
I left the Boot selection at "Disk or ISO image".
I pressed the [SELECT] button to choose the "HBCD_PE_x64.iso" file.
o Partition scheme: GPT (The only options are "GPT" and "MBR")
o Target System: The only option is "UEFI (non CSM)"
o Volume label: This defaulted to "HBCD_PE_x64"
o File system: FAT32 (other choices are "NTFS" & "FAT")
o Cluster size: It defaulted to 4096 bytes (but other options existed).

Notice that error message "implies" the HBCD_PE_x64.iso/Rufus 3.11
"might" maybe perhaps boot on my BIOS box "if" I set Rufus 3.11 to:
ERROR: BIOS/LEGACY BOOT OF UEFI-ONLY MEDIA
Recreate the drive in RUFUS and use:
* Partition scheme -> MBR
* Target system -> BIOS
<https://i.postimg.cc/2ykDXjW6/hiren01.jpg>

Given the Hirens documentation is atrocious (IMHO), it's probably
not worth testing out, but this error "implies" that I "might" be
able to get my BIOS box to boot to the HBCD_PE_x64.iso/Rufus 3.11
if I change the defaults to:
* Partition scheme -> MBR
* Target system -> BIOS

I'm gonna try again, just to see if those two options exist
in the Rufus 3.11 with the HBCD_PE_x64.iso file.

But otherwise, I'm gonna use your suggested BOOTCD v15.2
<http://www.hirensbootcd.org/files/Hirens.BootCD.15.2.zip>

The existing documentation is so frustratingly atrocious that I will
literally have to _guess_ which version of Rufus to use.

I'm gonna use Rufus version 1.4.6 simply because that was created
around the same date/time period as the BOOTCD v15.2.

But the fact I have to _guess_ which version of Rufus to use, is yet
another indication that the documentation for this stuff sucks.

Of course, if I already _knew_ which version of Rufus to use,
then I wouldn't have these issues - but who is omnipotent?

Not me.

[Mike Easter]

Arlen Holder wrote:

> The HBCD_PE_x64.iso/Rufus 3.11 did NOT boot on my BIOS box:

Yes; you already said in an earlier msg about that PE + rufus:

> Target System: the only option is "UEFI (non CSM)"

I don't think we should spend time talking about the PE, because you
have a BIOS and because I've never used the PE so I'm going to snip
everything that follows related to the PE or UEFI or both.

>
> But otherwise, I'm gonna use your suggested BOOTCD v15.2
> <http://www.hirensbootcd.org/files/Hirens.BootCD.15.2.zip>
>

Exactly. That .zip also contains a bunch of other stuff which is usable
but not necessary for 'our' purposes which are to write the .iso to USB
w/ Rufus and not make any changes to the .iso.

> The existing documentation is so frustratingly atrocious that I will
> literally have to _guess_ which version of Rufus to use.
>

Only use the current v. of Rufus for ANYTHING.

> I'm gonna use Rufus version 1.4.6 simply because that was created
> around the same date/time period as the BOOTCD v15.2.
>

Do not.

> But the fact I have to _guess_ which version of Rufus to use, is yet
> another indication that the documentation for this stuff sucks.
>

You are somehow on a wrong thinking course. In the case of Hiren's, the
PE aren't really different versions as much as different MAKES. The
earlier version numbers led up to 15.2.

> Of course, if I already _knew_ which version of Rufus to use,
> then I wouldn't have these issues - but who is omnipotent?
>

You shouldn't even be /considering/ different v. of Rufus for anything.


--
Mike Easter

[Arlen Holder]

On Wed, 9 Sep 2020 03:36:04 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder wrote:

> Given the Hirens documentation is atrocious (IMHO), it's probably
> not worth testing out, but this error "implies" that I "might" be
> able to get my BIOS box to boot to the HBCD_PE_x64.iso/Rufus 3.11
> if I change the defaults to:
> * Partition scheme -> MBR
> * Target system -> BIOS

It's a bit of a PITA that it's not anywhere documented which
version of Rufus to use for a BIOS box, where the boot error
message below "implies" the problem is only in Rufus setup:
o <https://i.postimg.cc/2ykDXjW6/hiren01.jpg>

Maybe... just maybe (I'm guessing), it doesn't matter which
version of Rufus I use - where only the settings matter?

Dunno yet.
I have to test it out to figure out if it's the Rufus version
or the Rufus settings, or that the HBCD_PE_x64.iso stands no
chance of working with a BIOS box.

To test that out, I re-ran with HBCD_PE_x64.iso/Rufus 3.11.1678
but I _changed_ the settings as suggested in that error message:

* Partition scheme -> MBR
* Target system -> BIOS

Specifically,
a. I set the Partition scheme to MBR (choices are "MBR" & "GPT")
b. The Target system defaulted to "BIOS (or UEFI-CSM)" (no other option)
c. The File system defaulted to "NTFS" (no other option existed)

After six minutes and 30 seconds, it created the boot USB device.

I'm gonna test it out right now so I wanted to fire this off before
I run that test.

My plan is:
1. If this test works, then I will report that you can get the
HBCD_PE_x64.iso/Rufus 3.11.1678 to work if you set it up right.

2. If this test fails, then I will give up on trying to get
HBCD_PE_x64.iso/Rufus 3.11.1678 to work.

3. Otherwise, I will use the Hirens.BootCD.15.2.zip ISO instead;
but I'm going to have to guess at which version of Rufus to use.

Does anyone know which version of Rufus to use with BootCD.15.2?

[Arlen Holder]

On Tue, 8 Sep 2020 20:50:47 -0700, Mike Easter wrote:

> Only use the current v. of Rufus for ANYTHING.

Ah! Thanks!
o That eliminates one of the guesswork decisions!

With the Rufus version solved, here's my plan for the next half hour:
1. I will boot to the HBCD_PE_x64.iso/Rufus 3.11.1678 I just created
with the two settings suggested in the error message of:

* Partition scheme -> MBR
* Target system -> BIOS

* File system -> NTFS (it defaulted to that & it was the only option)

2. If that boot of the PE fails, then I will image the USB stick with
Hirens.BootCD.15.2.zip ISO instead, using the same Rufus 3.11.1678.

Then I will see what's on this Hirens thingey to test out the HDD. :)

[Mike Easter]

Arlen Holder wrote:

<nothing much useful>

> Does anyone know which version of Rufus to use with BootCD.15.2?

It seems you aren't reading anything I'm posting.

Use only current v. of rufus for anything. Current 3.11. I use portable.



--
Mike Easter

[Mike Easter]

Arlen Holder wrote:
> 1. I will boot to the HBCD_PE_x64.iso

That won't work on a BIOS system.

--
Mike Easter

[Mike Easter]

Arlen Holder wrote:
> Hirens.BootCD.15.2.zip ISO instead, using the same Rufus 3.11.1678.

Yes.

--
Mike Easter

[Arlen Holder]

On Tue, 8 Sep 2020 21:16:25 -0700, Mike Easter wrote:

>> 1. I will boot to the HBCD_PE_x64.iso
>
> That won't work on a BIOS system.

Hi Mike,

Thanks for your help where I appreciate that you're trying to explain
things, where I'm _completely_ unfamiliar with _everything_ we're dealing
with here, and so I'm learning as I type (so please be patient with me).

The good news is that my BIOS box booted to the HBCD_PE_x64.iso/Rufus

3.11.1678 I just created with the two settings suggested in the error

message of: <https://i.postimg.cc/2ykDXjW6/hiren01.jpg>

* Partition scheme -> MBR

* Target system -> BIOS (it was the only option once MBR was set)
* File system -> NTFS (it was the only option once MBR was set)

When booted, PE looks just like "regular" Windows 10, kind of sort of:
<https://i.postimg.cc/HsGPFQSZ/hiren02.jpg>

Win10PE had access to the old system also so I could save a screenshot:
<https://i.postimg.cc/sDp0zvqV/hiren03.jpg>

Now it's time to find some of those neat utilities you had suggested!
<https://i.postimg.cc/W18WDxsC/hiren04.jpg>
o Accessories
o BCD-MBR Tools
o Computer Management
o Driver Management
o Hard Disk Tools
o Network
o Other Tools
o Removable Drive Tools
o Security
o System Tools
o Windows Recovery

Here's what the Hiren PE had in the "Hard Disk Tools" directory:
<https://i.postimg.cc/5ttP8p00/hiren05.jpg>
o Data Recovery
o Defrag
o Diagnostic
o Disk Explorer
o Imaging
o Partition Tools
o Security

Here's what the Hiren PE had in the Hard Disk Tools "Diagnostic" category:
<https://i.postimg.cc/CK6c7DB4/hiren06.jpg>
o GSmartControl
o HDDScan
o HDTune
o WD Data Lifeguard Diagnostics

It was on the Internet even, so now my goal is to figure out what programs
you suggested for testing out the hardware on my PC which means I need
to go back to your original post - but I wanted you to know it worked.

Thanks - I learned something new (I'll write up a tutorial later so that
others can more easily follow in our footsteps on both BIOS & UEFI PCs).

[Arlen Holder]

On Tue, 8 Sep 2020 21:15:34 -0700, Mike Easter wrote:

> It seems you aren't reading anything I'm posting.
> Use only current v. of rufus for anything. Current 3.11. I use portable.

Hi Mike,
I'm reading _everything_ but we're simply time lapsed, that's all.

As you had suggested, you were 100% correct that the Rufus 3.11 works!
o Now that I can easily boot to the Hiren's PE, I can try your diagnostics.

This is what you suggested in this message earlier in this thread:
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.comp.freeware/dkkdOmL95d8/_o4jdpgPAwAJ>

> I would boot the 'old-style' Hirens because it would show another OS
> boot and it also has some utilities for looking at such as SMART.

This isn't the "old style" version 15.2 Hirens, but it's the newer stuff,
where I will likely run the Hirens PE for a few hours to see if it has
a BSOD like the normal Windows 10 Pro has been doing since January.

I'll see if I can find this utility you sugested was on the 15.2 Hirens,
where I hope it's on the PE version of Hirens that I just booted to:
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.comp.freeware/dkkdOmL95d8/1-V1umoTAwAJ>

> MHDD 4.6 manage S.M.A.R.T. (SMART) and other drive parameters
> SmartUDM 2.00 Hard Disk Drive S.M.A.R.T. Viewer.
> ViVard 1.0 HDD low-level diagnostics, Surface test with remap,
> SMART-attributes etc.

I did see that you have no personal experience with the Hirens PE:
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.comp.freeware/dkkdOmL95d8/17IfFpJiBAAJ>

> ... as opposed to the PE Hiren's which is at the same site
> and I have no personal experience.
> https://www.hirensbootcd.org/download/ HBCD_PE_x64.iso

When I looked for "SMART" tools in the Hirens PE "Utility" directory,
I see the following in the "Hard Disk Tools" > "Diagnostics" folder:

<https://i.postimg.cc/CK6c7DB4/hiren06.jpg>
o GSmartControl
o HDDScan
o HDTune
o WD Data Lifeguard Diagnostics

Do any of those look familiar to you as the suggested SMART test tools?

If not, I will need to run Rufus on the Hiren's version 15.2 ISO instead.

[Mike Easter]

Arlen Holder wrote:
> Do any of those look familiar to you as the suggested SMART test tools?

GSmart is like the linux smartmontools/ smartctl.

The WD Data Lifeguard Diagnostics v1.31 also has smart, but it is
intended or perhaps limited to western digital drives.

Such as seagate/maxtor have their own such.

--
Mike Easter

[Arlen Holder]

On Tue, 8 Sep 2020 21:16:50 -0700, Mike Easter wrote:

>> Hirens.BootCD.15.2.zip ISO instead, using the same Rufus 3.11.1678.
>
> Yes.

Hi Mike,

Thanks for that confirmation, where I apologize that _all_ this is new to
me, so you have experience that I'm just slowing coming up to speed on.

To follow your suggestions faithfully, I imaged a second 2GB USB stick:
o Boot selection -> Hiren's.BootCD.15.2.iso (using Rufus 3.11)
o Partition scheme -> "MBR" (it's the only option)
o Target system -> "BIOS (or UEFI-CSM)" (it's the only option)
o Volume label -> HBCD 15.2 (it's the default)
o File system -> "FAT32" (other options are "FAT" & "NTFS")
o Cluster size -> "4096 bytes (Default)"
[START]

This 2nd Hiren's image is taking more than twice longer to create than did
the first Hiren's PE, so I will first send this off & then I will try to
boot to _that_ second Hirens' image of the older version 15.2 Hiren's
software - so that I can search for the diagnostic tools on that disk that
you're already familiar with.

If all goes well, I'll have two Hiren's USB sticks I can boot BIOS to:
a. The Hiren's BootCD PE <https://www.hirensbootcd.org/download/>
b. The Hiren's BootCD 15.2 <https://www.hirensbootcd.org/hbcd-v152/>

[Arlen Holder]

On Tue, 8 Sep 2020 22:27:50 -0700, Mike Easter wrote:

> GSmart is like the linux smartmontools/ smartctl.
>
> The WD Data Lifeguard Diagnostics v1.31 also has smart, but it is
> intended or perhaps limited to western digital drives.
>
> Such as seagate/maxtor have their own such.

Hi Mike,

Thanks for all your help & patience, as I had _never_ created a bootable
Windows 10 on a USB stick before! (This is a neat new testing tool!).

Currently there is only one drive in this BIOS PC, a WD 1TB "Blue".
o So I'll test out the "WD Data Lifeguard Diagnostics" & "GSmart" first.

Now I have three bootable USB sticks:
1. MemTest86 v4 (I used this to test the 16 GB of Patriot memory)
2. Hirens Boot CD PE USB image (Rufus 3.11 created this in 6 minutes)
3. Hirens Boot CD 15.2 USB image (Rufus 3.11 created it in 20 minutes)

I'm ready to boot to that second Hirens USB stick to see what's different!
--
BTW, here are the links to create the MemTest86 bootable USB stick:
o UEFI MemTest86 v8
<https://www.memtest86.com/downloads/memtest86-usb.zip>
o BIOS MemTest86 v4
<https://www.memtest86.com/downloads/memtest86-4.3.7-usb.img.zip>

That MemTest86 utility came with an "ImageUSB.exe" utility from
"Passmark.com" <http://www.passmark.com> that seems to have done pretty
much whatever Rufus 3.11 did for the Hiren's Boot CD ISO files to create a
bootable USB stick.

To test whether or not your PC is BIOS or UEFI, I used these commands:
o Win+R > msinfo32 > System Summary > BIOS Mode > Legacy <== I got this
o Win+R > msinfo32 > System Summary > BIOS Mode > UEFI

findstr Callback_BootEnvironmentDetect %SystemRoot%\Panther\setupact.log
o Detected boot environment: BIOS <== I got this
o Detected boot environment: UEFI

[Arlen Holder]

On Wed, 9 Sep 2020 06:02:13 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder wrote:

> Now I have three bootable USB sticks:
> 1. MemTest86 v4 (I used this to test the 16 GB of Patriot memory)
> 2. Hirens Boot CD PE USB image (Rufus 3.11 created this in 6 minutes)
> 3. Hirens Boot CD 15.2 USB image (Rufus 3.11 created it in 20 minutes)
>
> I'm ready to boot to that second Hirens USB stick to see what's different!

Hi Mike,

Thanks for all your patient purposefully helpful advice & clarifications!
o I now have a bootable WinXP & Win10 each on their own 2GB USB sticks!
<https://i.postimg.cc/50BSJCK9/hiren07.jpg>

As you noted, there are lots of programs on the Hiren's 15.2 WinXP boot CD:
<https://i.postimg.cc/8z7d53X0/hiren08.jpg>

Upon first inspection, the utilities seem to be both the same & different.
o Here are the Hiren's Win10 PE Hard Disk Diagnostic Utilities:

<https://i.postimg.cc/CK6c7DB4/hiren06.jpg>
o GSmartControl
o HDDScan
o HDTune
o WD Data Lifeguard Diagnostics

o Here are the Hirens mini-WinXP 15.2 boot disk HDD diagnostics:
<https://i.postimg.cc/7L7g1zk1/hiren09.jpg>
o Check Disk (chkdsk /f /x)
o CrystalDiskInfo (HDD/SSD SMART info)
o DiskView
o DiskWIpe (by Roadkill)
o HDD Capacity Restore
o HDD Low Level Format Tool
o HDD Scan (Low-level diagnostic)
o HDD Scan (Old version)
o HDD Tune (Test / Health / ErrorScan)
o Victoria (HDD Info / Test)
o Western Digital Data Lifeguard Diagnostic

o HDDScan
o HDTune
o WD Data Lifeguard Diagnostics

Besides THANKING YOU for turning me on to these neat and yet tiny 2GB
WinXP & Win10 bootable diagnostic images, I have two personal action items:
1. I need to now use those tools to run hardware diagnostic tests!
2. I hope I can write up a tutorial so others benefit more easily!
--
Usenet is a wonderful public discussion group of helpful suggestions!

[Arlen Holder]

On Wed, 9 Sep 2020 06:53:54 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder wrote:

> 1. I need to now use those tools to run hardware diagnostic tests!

Hi Mike,

The Western Digital diagnostic tool returned a clean result on the HDD:
o <https://i.postimg.cc/rsrjLyxF/hiren11.jpg>

I also ran the "GSmartControl" utility, which too came up clean:
o <https://i.postimg.cc/BbTFgj2D/hiren13.jpg>

So did the "HD Tune" Hard disk utility:
o <https://i.postimg.cc/WpGqxJJq/hiren14.jpg>

Whatever is causing these BSOD's since January, it's not likely either the
memory (memtest86 v4 came up clean) or the hard disk drive (also clean).

What's needed is good PC hardware stress testing diagnostic freeware.

[Arlen Holder]

On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 11:59:26 -0700, Mike Easter wrote:

UPDATE: <https://i.postimg.cc/qv5N2sWS/hiren15.jpg>

These are the HDD testing tools on each of the two Hirens USB boot images:
o WinXP USB boot image <https://i.postimg.cc/7L7g1zk1/hiren09.jpg>
o Win10PE USB boot image <https://i.postimg.cc/fTjR2hs9/hiren10.jpg>

The good news is they are a neat way to test the HDD for errors.
o The bad news (so to speak) is that (so far) they found no errors.
<https://i.postimg.cc/KzKrnc9r/hiren12.jpg>

So, while this Hirens WinXP/Win10 USB boot image is neat, the question
remains what PC hardware diagnostic stress testing freeware is extant.

[Mike Easter]

Arlen Holder wrote:
> As you noted, there are lots of programs on the Hiren's 15.2 WinXP boot CD:

The advantage of booting Hirens, besides all of the useful tools, is
that you are /using/ the hardware in question, except for the hdd. Thus
you are able to see that many things are working.

So Hirens is good for your OP situation:

> I have a random hardware related BSOD whose cause is unknown to me


Personally, I would be more likely to run a 'conventional' linux live
USB because I have so many just lying around. That would tell me all
kinds of good things about my hardware w/o even using any 'specific'
diagnostic tests. But that boot doesn't use the hdd, so its status
would be unknown. The conventional linux also can use its repo/s to get
a SMART tool; I think that smart is the best first look at a hdd condition.

Besides conventional linux distro/s and their conventional repos, there
are also a number of linux distros whose purpose is diagnostic work on
win and linux, such as Rescatux, SystemRescueCD, and others which
already have such as SMART tools installed.

There are other types of 'rescue' disks, depending on the problem, such
as Win password cracking tools on live CD/USB, which can require a lot
of 'power' depending. Ophcrack uses rainbow tables and runs off the
lightweight slitaz distro.


--
Mike Easter

[Mike Easter]

Arlen Holder wrote:
> Whatever is causing these BSOD's since January, it's not likely either the
> memory (memtest86 v4 came up clean) or the hard disk drive (also clean).

What is your evidence for your original premise?

> I have a random hardware related BSOD whose cause is unknown to me

BSOD can certainly be caused by other than hardware problems.

The first 'step' one asks is NOT 'is something wrong w/ the hardware' if
a 'quick' examination such as running other operating systems and all of
the peripherals for hours or even days doesn't show any 'failure',

... AND ...

... preliminary hardware evaluations such as ram and hdd and cpu/case
temps show no problems.

Why can't the BSOD be caused by some 'condition' of the OS which is
puking and giving the BSOD?

However, there are such things as intermittent hardware issues which are
diabolical.

--
Mike Easter

[Arlen Holder]

On Wed, 9 Sep 2020 07:25:20 -0700, Mike Easter wrote:

> The advantage of booting Hirens, besides all of the useful tools, is
> that you are /using/ the hardware in question, except for the hdd. Thus
> you are able to see that many things are working.
>
> So Hirens is good for your OP situation:

Hi Mike,

Thanks for your purposefully helpful suggestions, and, thanks for being
patient with me when I ran into problems with the lack of BIOS-related
documentation on the Hirens' boot cd creation for both Win10PE & WinXP USB
boot sticks.

I agree Hirens is "yet another OS" that I can run to see if it BSODs, and,
as such, I heartily THANK YOU for turning me on to Hiren's boot USB images!
o It's fantastic to have handy other "similar" operating systems.
<https://i.postimg.cc/qv5N2sWS/hiren15.jpg>

I left the PC on the Win10PE version of Hirens all night, for example,
after running the extended HDD diagnostics, and it did not BSOD (yet).

The only problem with the Hiren's boot USB images is the lack of a known
good tutorial as I had to create USB sticks multiple times before Hirens
worked on my BIOS PC.

Had I had a tutorial, I would have been up & running in minutes!
o Thanks for the suggestion of Hirens - both USB sticks are a keeper!

>> I have a random hardware related BSOD whose cause is unknown to me
>
> Personally, I would be more likely to run a 'conventional' linux live
> USB because I have so many just lying around. That would tell me all
> kinds of good things about my hardware w/o even using any 'specific'
> diagnostic tests.

I have a ton of live Linux DVDs (e.g., Ubuntu, Knoppix, RescueCD, etc.).

I did try to run Ubuntu off the DVD, but for whatever reason, it crashed.
o This old desktop has a rather flaky DVD drive so that may be the issue.

The nice thing is the Hirens boot USB sticks boot much faster than DVDs!

> But that boot doesn't use the hdd, so its status
> would be unknown. The conventional linux also can use its repo/s to get
> a SMART tool; I think that smart is the best first look at a hdd condition.

I agree it's useful to test some things WITHOUT booting to Windows/Linux:
o For example, I booted to Memtest86 v4, which reported 16GB of clean RAM
<https://i.postimg.cc/KY1Yk4WP/memtest02.jpg>

Likewise, booting to the Hirens OS reported the 1TB WD HDD apparently ok:
<https://i.postimg.cc/KzKrnc9r/hiren12.jpg>

Also the USB Device Tree utility showed up an intermittent mouse wiring:
<https://i.postimg.cc/rmCXCgN2/usbview02.jpg>

What's needed now is some good hardware diagnostic stress-testing freeware!

> Besides conventional linux distro/s and their conventional repos, there
> are also a number of linux distros whose purpose is diagnostic work on
> win and linux, such as Rescatux, SystemRescueCD, and others which
> already have such as SMART tools installed.

I agree; I have used Knoppix and RescueCD for years.
o I prefer the USB booting though - it's faster & more reliable for me.

> There are other types of 'rescue' disks, depending on the problem, such
> as Win password cracking tools on live CD/USB, which can require a lot
> of 'power' depending. Ophcrack uses rainbow tables and runs off the
> lightweight slitaz distro.

Understood.

What I need is in the subject line of this thread, which we all need:
o What PC Hardware Diagnostic stress testing freeware can we recommend?

[Mike Easter]

Arlen Holder wrote:
> What I need is in the subject line of this thread,

What I need to hear is what is your evidence for a hardware problem as
opposed to whatever OS is giving you the BSOD?

--
Mike Easter

[Arlen Holder]

On Wed, 9 Sep 2020 07:36:18 -0700, Mike Easter wrote:

> What is your evidence for your original premise?

The BSODs have been happening for months on multiply re-imaged Win10Pro:
o Windows 10 BSOD indicates a hardware problem - but what hardware is the problem?
<https://alt.comp.os.windows-10.narkive.com/oL7PTNKu/windows-10-bsod-indicates-a-hardware-problem-but-what-hardware-is-the-problem>

Note that I've re-imaged that same HDD about four or so times
since January, simply because the BSOD sometimes destroys Windows' ability
to boot.

And I pressed F9 during POST many times to run the built-in HP hardware
diagnostic test suite, which always came up clean every time I tested it.

What I will do the _next_ time Windows gets chewed up by a BSOD,
is I will put the operating system on a _different_ hard disk drive!

That will eliminate the HDD hardware completely from the equation.

>> I have a random hardware related BSOD whose cause is unknown to me
>
> BSOD can certainly be caused by other than hardware problems.
>
> The first 'step' one asks is NOT 'is something wrong w/ the hardware' if
> a 'quick' examination such as running other operating systems and all of
> the peripherals for hours or even days doesn't show any 'failure',
>
> ... AND ...
>
> ... preliminary hardware evaluations such as ram and hdd and cpu/case
> temps show no problems.
>
> Why can't the BSOD be caused by some 'condition' of the OS which is
> puking and giving the BSOD?

Thanks for that suggestion Mike, as only the Lord knows what is causing my
many sudden but intermittent BSODs on Windows 10 Pro.

The only thing I can say is that I've re-imaged that HDD with Win10Pro
multiple times, each after a low level format, so, if it's Windows, it's
related to the "drivers" or some 'software' I'm putting on that boot drive.

> However, there are such things as intermittent hardware issues which are
> diabolical.

Yup. Agreed. Intermittence is a bitch.

I have to consider "bias errors" in that I did wiggle EVERY wire in the
system, and I did replace the data SATA cables, and I swapped the four
memory cards, and I removed/replaced the Nvidia graphics card, and I
unplugged the DVD drive, etc.

I even replaced the CMOS 2032 battery, "just in case" it mattered!
o (You know I'm grasping at straws when I replace a perfectly good part!)

Wiggling and replacing and disconnecting hardware 'seems' to have quieted
down the intermittent BSODs; but that could just be bias error on my part
as I have been fighting this series of sudden BSODs since January.

In summary, it could be software or hardware, I agree.

1. If it's software, it's not the OS itself but some "add on" installed
because the OS has been wiped clean multiple times & it still BSODs.

2. If it's hardware, it's likely intermittent, so what I really need is
some sort of focus on _logging_ so that I can catch the error after the
fact.

Do folks know of good BSOD logging tools that I can test out for the team?

[Mike Easter]

Arlen Holder wrote:
> The BSODs have been happening for months on multiply re-imaged Win10Pro:

I skimmed the long narkive you linked.

It is hard for me to get inspired about a BSOD on Win10 problem, as my
total experience w/ W10 is very scant. I bought a cheap refurb laptop
'specifically' to have a W10 licensed device to see what I tho't about
W10. I wasn't impressed, so I don't use it, the w10.

I found the machine interesting and had some interesting and educational
linux experiences w/ it in terms of how well various distro live boots
do at recognizing the wifi outofthebox w/o any help from me.

But, I don't really like to run Win on it. It is a useful enough
machine w/ linux that I upped its ram from the original 4 to 8 G. MX
Linux gets along fine w/ it and there is an interesting new MX Linux
which is full of KDE and a plethora of apps.

BTW, and back to your plight somewhat, the MX guys have also come up w/
a release they/he calls Workbench, described as:

> It’s a custom Live-USB Linux build made with MX tools is that is meant to be a Swiss Army kind of tool for sysadmins, containing a lot of useful programs that can be used for cloning disks and partitions, recovering files, searching for viruses and rootkits, hardware benchmarking, wiping drives, resetting Windows password, updating firmware, ftp, remoting, and so on (similar to Parted Magic for example — but much more flexible in my view).

... which also makes its mention apropos for acf.

--
Mike Easter

[Arlen Holder]

On Wed, 9 Sep 2020 08:35:13 -0700, Mike Easter wrote:

> I skimmed the long narkive you linked.

Thanks. It has been a long road, where the main focus is on improving our
combined abilities to IDENTIFY the cause of a BSOD, whether HW or SW.

What's sorely needed, for me and for everyone, I think, is a freeware
logging ability that captures the critical moments before a BSOD.

Much like a dashcam captures the critical moments before the crash.

> It is hard for me to get inspired about a BSOD on Win10 problem, as my
> total experience w/ W10 is very scant. I bought a cheap refurb laptop
> 'specifically' to have a W10 licensed device to see what I tho't about
> W10. I wasn't impressed, so I don't use it, the w10.

As you're well aware, I've been on CentOS and Ubuntu for years, and
SunOS/Solarisa before that, and DEC VMS and PDP 11's before that, and IBM
1130's before that, etc., as have all of we octogenarians.

Personally, I shied away from Ubuntu in the Canonical Unity days, and I
haven't really come back, except when I need to use sed/awk/grep/col, etc.

However, the fact that the WSL freeware works so well on Windows 10
nowadays, almost literally negates my need for Linux lately:
o Tutorial for setting up Ubuntu as a Windows Subsystem for Linux WSL in Windows 10
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.os.linux/PV4Shdb67iM>

One FANTASTIC capability of Linux is that it handles iOS devices perfectly!
o Simultaneously slide Windows Linux iOS Android files back and forth
over USB at 7GB per minute speeds using 100% native devices
(no proprietary software needed)
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.os.linux/PV4Shdb67iM>

> I found the machine interesting and had some interesting and educational
> linux experiences w/ it in terms of how well various distro live boots
> do at recognizing the wifi outofthebox w/o any help from me.

All my Windows machines are typically set up as dual boot, Windows/Linux.
o But with the WSL for Linux working so well, that may not be needed.

> But, I don't really like to run Win on it. It is a useful enough
> machine w/ linux that I upped its ram from the original 4 to 8 G. MX
> Linux gets along fine w/ it and there is an interesting new MX Linux
> which is full of KDE and a plethora of apps.

Windows has only one huge advantage over Linux, IMHO.
o Otherwise, you do on one what you do on the other.

The huge advantage, sad to say, is MS Office.

> BTW, and back to your plight somewhat, the MX guys have also come up w/

> a release they/he calls Workbench.

I think what we really need, and that everyone needs, for Windows, is a
freeware LOGGING capability (like a dashcam or police body cam) that keeps
a running log of what matters, and which is preserved after a BSOD crash.

[Mike Easter]

Arlen Holder wrote:
> The huge advantage, sad to say, is MS Office.

For me personally, the last time I used MS Office was Office 97 on my
first W95. Currently sometimes I use an ancient MS Word on a WXP OEM,
the most common 'editing' I do is in Tb and plain text editors. The
capabilities of the current Libre Office family are way WAY more than I
have any use for.

I also 'believe' in the philosophies of the OpenDocument Foundation and
OD standardization, so the most important function of an office suite is
its abilities to perform well in those standards, not some proprietary
format.

Besides me personally, in general, I don't consider MS Office a 'huge'
advantage. I think individuals and small businesses and large
businesses should be steered away from MS Office because of its
proprietary format 'bent' and behavior in terms of a propensity to
'poison the water' of those who are desirous of crossplatform and
opendocument compatibility.

Not that I have anything against capitalism or Bill Gates, but I think
the world should look in some other directions than MS Office. It is an
unnecessary burden in terms of costs and wrong-headedness re open docs.


--
Mike Easter

[p-0''0-h the cat (coder)]

On Wed, 9 Sep 2020 09:41:34 -0700, Mike Easter <Mi...@ster.invalid>
wrote:

Yeah but, MS Office rocks. Who wants to feel like a poor cousin.

Sent from my iFurryUnderbelly.

--
p-0.0-h the cat

Internet Terrorist, Mass sock puppeteer, Agent provocateur, Gutter rat,
Devil incarnate, Linux user#666, BaStarD hacker, Resident evil, Monkey Boy,
Certifiable criminal, Spineless cowardly scum, textbook Psychopath,
the SCOURGE, l33t p00h d3 tr0ll, p00h == lam3r, p00h == tr0ll, troll infâme,
the OVERCAT [The BEARPAIR are dead, and we are its murderers], lowlife troll,
shyster [pending approval by STATE_TERROR], cripple, sociopath, kook,
smug prick, smartarse, arsehole, moron, idiot, imbecile, snittish scumbag,
liar, total ******* retard, shill, pooh-seur, scouringerer, jumped up chav,
punk ass dole whore troll, no nothing innumerate religious maniac,
lycanthropic schizotypal lesbian, the most complete ignoid, joker, and furball.

NewsGroups Numbrer One Terrorist

Honorary SHYSTER and FRAUD awarded for services to Haberdashery.
By Appointment to God Frank-Lin.

Signature integrity check
md5 Checksum: be0b2a8c486d83ce7db9a459b26c4896

I mark any messages from trolls »Q« and 'Arlene' Holder as stinky

[Mike Easter]

pooh wrote:
> MS Office rocks.
MSO is a very good suite, but not ideal. There are TONS of apps which
support .odt better incl googledocs, calligra, LO and OO, StarOffice &
scores more.

Macs would be better off w/ a different office suite than MSO, as MacMSO
doesn't even support .odt.

Macs also should avoid their iWork, as it doesn't do .odt either. Mac
would be best off w/ LO or OO. Or maybe Softmaker.

> Who wants to feel like a poor cousin.

Since MSO isn't ideal, there isn't any reason to feel anything but
'compatible' using LO, OO, or other .odt format wp.

--
Mike Easter

[p-0''0-h the cat (coder)]

On Wed, 9 Sep 2020 15:05:06 -0700, Mike Easter <Mi...@ster.invalid>
wrote:

>Since MSO isn't ideal, there isn't any reason to feel anything but
>'compatible' using LO, OO, or other .odt format wp.

Compatible my arse. Try this.

https://ac6la.com/zplots1.html

It's not remotely in MSO's class and the spreadsheet is the best program
in the suite.

[Arlen Holder]

On Wed, 9 Sep 2020 07:52:28 -0700, Mike Easter wrote:

> What I need to hear is what is your evidence for a hardware problem as
> opposed to whatever OS is giving you the BSOD?

Hi Mike,

To answer your question that I _agree_ with you,
I don't have much evidence for either hardware or software.
o I just have BSODs, about once a day or so, on average.

Unfortunately, all the Windows Reliability Monitor says is:
o Hardware error

As shown in this screenshot I just dook for you just now:
o <https://i.postimg.cc/q7ZQbgXy/bsod-bios05.jpg>
[Control Panel\System & Security\Security & Maintenance\Reliability Monitor]

Does anyone know how to get the Windows Reliability Monitor to report
_what_ hardware failure actually caused the BSOD?
o Win+R > perfmon /rel
o Win+R > perfmon /report

[Arlen Holder]

Update: <https://i.postimg.cc/vTnqk9GC/bsod100.jpg>

To Mike's point, it could be software, so, I'm stress testing the drivers:
o Win+R > verifiergui
o Win+R > verifier (apparently this is the exact same thing)

As per this Windows 10 BSOD detailed analysis plan using freeware:
o Windows BSOD analysis - A thorough usage guide
<https://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/windows-bsod.html#mozTocId740847>

The three freeware tools recommended in that detailed BSOD plan are:
o BSOD analysis tool 1: WhoCrashed
<http://www.resplendence.com/whocrashed>

o BSOD analysis tool 2: Nirsoft BlueScreenView
<http://www.nirsoft.net/utils/blue_screen_view.html>

o BSOD analysis tool 3: Windows Debugger (Windbg)
<http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/devtools/debugging/default.mspx>

In addition to the Windows Symbol Packages:
o <http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/devtools/debugging/symbolpkg.mspx>

Although, there are others out there that warn against this approach:
o Why You Shouldn't Use the Driver Verifier in Windows 10
<https://www.howtogeek.com/363500/why-you-shouldnt-use-the-driver-verifier-in-windows-10/>

This real-time driver stress testing consumes a _lot_ of my CPU,
so I can't run it all the time; but it's running as we type.

If a driver causes a BSOD, the blue screen "should" report more
detailed information, and the minidumps should contain even more.

[wasbit]

"Arlen Holder" <arlen_...@newmachines.com> wrote in message
news:rjaqth$p5p$1...@news.mixmin.net...

If the problem is being caused by software then your images will also
contain the fault, much the same as if it were malware.
To eliminate that scenario I would install a newly downloaded copy of
Windows onto an old HDD & remove any others.

--
Regards
wasbit

[Mike Easter]

Arlen Holder wrote:
>
> As per this Windows 10 BSOD detailed analysis plan using freeware:
> o Windows BSOD analysis - A thorough usage guide
> <https://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/windows-bsod.html#mozTocId740847>
>

That's a nice article by Igor Ljubuncic, but it is 2010 Win7 oriented,
naturally Win is Win. I usually read his linux stuff.

> The three freeware tools recommended in that detailed BSOD plan are:
> o BSOD analysis tool 1: WhoCrashed
> <http://www.resplendence.com/whocrashed>
>

Includes W10.

> o BSOD analysis tool 2: Nirsoft BlueScreenView
> <http://www.nirsoft.net/utils/blue_screen_view.html>
>

Nirsoft doesn't tell how to get mini- or dump on W10, just xp/7

> o BSOD analysis tool 3: Windows Debugger (Windbg)
> <http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/devtools/debugging/default.mspx>
>

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/drivers/debugger/debugger-download-tools


I don't think I would much like to look at dumps.

> In addition to the Windows Symbol Packages:
> o <http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/devtools/debugging/symbolpkg.mspx>
>

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/drivers/debugger/debugger-download-symbols

> Although, there are others out there that warn against this approach:
> o Why You Shouldn't Use the Driver Verifier in Windows 10
> <https://www.howtogeek.com/363500/why-you-shouldnt-use-the-driver-verifier-in-windows-10/>
>

When I have a driver question in linux, I use such as inxi to determine
what driver is in use for such as my graphic or wifi or ethernet and
then determine online if that is most suitable for my hardware, which
inxi can also tell me.

I don't like the way Win reports hardware info as well.

> This real-time driver stress testing consumes a _lot_ of my CPU,
> so I can't run it all the time; but it's running as we type.
>
> If a driver causes a BSOD, the blue screen "should" report more
> detailed information, and the minidumps should contain even more.
>

Earlier you said:
> The BSODs have been happening for months on multiply re-imaged Win10Pro:

What do you mean 'multiply re-imaged Win10Pro".

That is, I agree w/ wasbit that we should be talking about a fresh
install, not something that is a 'used' saved image.

It is a lot harder to diagnose or treat a 'sick' system than than to
install or boot a live well one.

Also, do I understand that the hardware can run various other OSes (such
as linux) for hours or even days?

--
Mike Easter

[Arlen Holder]

On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 05:46:35 -0700, Mike Easter wrote:
> That's a nice article by Igor Ljubuncic, but it is 2010 Win7 oriented,
> naturally Win is Win. I usually read his linux stuff.

Hi Mike,
Thanks for confirming my suspicion that the article author is good stuff.
o Windows BSOD analysis - A thorough usage guide, by Igor Ljubuncic
<https://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/windows-bsod.html>

Here's freeware I've downloaded based on Igor's recommendations...

WhoCrashed
o <https://www.resplendence.com/downloads>
o <https://www.resplendence.com/download/whocrashedSetup.exe>
Name: whocrashedSetup.exe
Size: 9936128 bytes (9703 KiB)
SHA256: 0A7E3A03256D3143118BE5389F0C5F7F405A40066D999E246C57280E9282AE14

WhySoSlow
o <https://www.resplendence.com/downloads>
o <https://www.resplendence.com/download/WhySoSlowSetup.exe>
Name: WhySoSlowSetup.exe
Size: 3028336 bytes (2957 KiB)
SHA256: B86CED75CFB352A464613DE922FA8B9D63FA4494EAA24509713C01B0615097B3

BlueScreenView
o <http://www.nirsoft.net/utils/blue_screen_view.html>
o <http://www.nirsoft.net/utils/bluescreenview-x64.zip>
Name: BlueScreenView.exe
Size: 146528 bytes (143 KiB)
SHA256: 09F3023554BE864F31D80F2E7E7C7E824D79A69DDF84F1F02A433E85E866282C

AppCrashView
o <http://www.nirsoft.net/utils/app_crash_view.html>
o <http://www.nirsoft.net/utils/appcrashview.zip>
Name: AppCrashView.exe
Size: 51408 bytes (50 KiB)
SHA256: A192607D63FFD9448CCAAEAB461D3E3FABFAB999B0FC14CD869CC8C501312839

WhatIsHang
o <http://www.nirsoft.net/utils/what_is_hang.html>
o <http://www.nirsoft.net/utils/whatishang-x64.zip>
Name: WhatIsHang.exe
Size: 130144 bytes (127 KiB)
SHA256: E2095DBE5FF7A1E7113ABDF8D26BD8532789CE5B725FBF5321225E743B8E29B0

WinCrashReport
o <http://www.nirsoft.net/utils/application_crash_report.html>
o <http://www.nirsoft.net/utils/wincrashreport-x64.zip>
Name: WinCrashReport.exe
Size: 294096 bytes (287 KiB)
SHA256: 6638857A3BF187626B5E4878E10479AE5E4107DC786744F32D1E659955524B24

For whatever reasons, Microsoft won't let me download these though:

Symbols
o <http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/devtools/debugging/symbolpkg.mspx>

Windows Debugger (Windbg)
o <https://www.microsoft.com/whdc/devtools/debugging/default.mspx>

Are you able to download those two Microsoft tools?
o My browsers report: Your request has been blocked
You are using a proxy that is known to send automated requests to Microsoft.
Your request pattern matches an automated process

I also ran Igor's suggested "Driver Verifier" overnight (which slows down
the system to almost unusable speeds) but there was no crash last night to
debug - but that tells me there's nothing (yet) wrong with the drivers.

> Earlier you said:
>> The BSODs have been happening for months on multiply re-imaged Win10Pro:
>
> What do you mean 'multiply re-imaged Win10Pro".

Hi Mike,

Good question; I appreciate your queries as I wish to identify the BSOD.
o I apologize for not being detailed enough.

Bear in mind sometimes the machine did not even boot to the POST screen!
o This was my first indication of a hardware problem.

Often, especially before I turned off fastboot & hibernation & restart,
the POST screen would come up, but it would hang there forever.

In those cases, where I couldn't even get past POST, I was forced to
re-image the operating system, in its entirety, via a boot DVD.

Since this has been going on for months, I re-imaged with the latest OS
available at each time (although once I accidentally used an older OS):
o The Windows 10 May 2020 Update is finally now released 5/27/2020
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/microsoft.public.windowsxp.general/C8uKEw5vIMA>

Only after I did a few things did this POST-hangup stop:
1. I pulled out all unnecessary hardware (e.g., the Nvidia graphics card)
2. I turned off auto-restart, fastboot, & hibernation
3. I religiously created system restore points to recover into

So I haven't had the hangup before or during POST for a while now.
o But I still have intermittent all-of-a-sudden random BSODs

As for re-installing the operating system:
1. I tweak _hundreds_ of things (yes, hundreds) after I install Win10.
2. Hence I prefer not to re-install the operating system if I can help it.
3. However, I was forced to re-install, by the BSODs corrupting the boot.

I probably re-imaged Windows three or four times since January due to these
boot corruptions, each time I used the same HDD (which I will not do the
next time around, just to eliminate the HDD itself as a variable).

Even though I used the same reasonably new 1TB WD "Blue" HDD, I copied all
the data off that HDD onto another computer (where I recently purchased a
$100 Costco 5TB drive for that purpose).

Note I am a strong proponent of "data" is all that I need to back up.
o Both the operating system and the installed software are always "fresh"

See this tutorial for details on the tricks used to manage that feat:
o Tutorial for setting up Windows (so that reinstall is trivial)
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/microsoft.public.windowsxp.general/1Gf59YRkaI8>

Given I am likely the most well-organized PC user you've ever met, bear in
mind I don't ever use any "cloning" tools as I _always_ start fresh with a
brand new OS (always) and I fresh re-install the software from an archive.

Before I re-installed the OS and the software & copied back the data...
a. I put the 1TB WD "Blue" HDD in another machine
b. I backed up all the data to that other machine
c. I then ran a low-level format of that HDD on that other machine

Even with a perfectly _clean_ Windows 10 Pro, before the hundreds of
tweaks, a BSOD resulted within a few days to weeks of that 'fresh install'.

The boot corruptions causing the PC to not get past the POST screen only
"seem" to have stopped recently, by forcing the machine NOT to reboot
after a BSOD, and by forcing the operating system NOT to save the
hibernation/fastboot file but to boot completely clean each time.

I still get BSODs, but I can consistently get past the POST screen now,
and, when I do get a BSOD, I restore to the previous restore point.

> That is, I agree w/ wasbit that we should be talking about a fresh
> install, not something that is a 'used' saved image.

Never in my life have I ever proposed, on any operating system, whether
that be Android, Linux, iOS, or Windows, that a "cloned image" be
re-installed.

If I had to reinstall because of "something" in the setup (particularly
perhaps a "something" in the Windows' God-awfully complex "registry"), then
I'm gonna _always_ install fresh.
o Fresh OS
o Fresh Apps
o Old data & old menus & old folder hierarchy (they're simply copies)

> It is a lot harder to diagnose or treat a 'sick' system than than to
> install or boot a live well one.

The main problem with "live" systems is that they take really long to boot
on my old equipment, and they're slow, which makes them inconvenient.

However... with this Hiren's WinXP/Win10 boot USB you turned me on to, I
plan on running the Win10PE overnight a few times to see if the BSOD ever
happens on that "live" operating system (for which I thank you!!!!!!).

> Also, do I understand that the hardware can run various other OSes (such
> as linux) for hours or even days?

Yes. The BSOD only happens with Windows, although, at times, I had problems
installing Ubuntu but I also have Tails, Knoppix, CentOS, et al. on DVD.

With this "Rufus" tool you turned me on to, I like the idea that I can boot
to USB, which seems to be more reliable on my old system (the DVD is
admittedly flaky as I often have to paperclip the DVD out). [I leave the
connections to the DVD drive disconnected unless/until I actually need it.]

In summary, one by one, I'm using freeware to diagnose what the problem is,
but, as you noted, a fresh install is paramount, as is me trying to figure
out whether it's hardware or software.

[Mike Easter]

Arlen Holder wrote:

> For whatever reasons, Microsoft won't let me download these though:
> Symbols
> o<http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/devtools/debugging/symbolpkg.mspx>
>
> Windows Debugger (Windbg)
> o<https://www.microsoft.com/whdc/devtools/debugging/de

In my previous msg, in response to your links, I posted 'my own' because
yours didn't work:

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/drivers/debugger/debugger-download-tools
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/drivers/debugger/debugger-download-symbols



--
Mike Easter

[Arlen Holder]

On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 10:11:57 -0700, Mike Easter wrote:

> In my previous msg, in response to your links, I posted 'my own' because
> yours didn't work:
>
> https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/drivers/debugger/debugger-download-tools
> https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/drivers/debugger/debugger-download-symbols

Hi Mike,
Oops. I had not seen that response (or I missed it somehow). Mea culpa.
o Thanks for repeating it, as I will try _all_ of Igor's suggestions!

Unfortunately, the symbol debugger is no longer offline (only online).
o And it's a PITA to obtain the Windbg from the SDK (but I have it).

Luckily, this rather detailed 64-page WinDbg tutorial comes with the SDK:
Name: Kernel_Debugging_Tutorial.doc
Size: 1196032 bytes (1168 KiB)
SHA256: 5A4E442B965280C791AC0AEA9D91B001AFF620F6ECF67C87AB011C1BAC673156

Which, by cutting and pasting, I found a copy on the net here for you:
<https://docplayer.net/37532550-Kernel-debugging-with-windbg.html>

This is a step-by-step tutorial from Microsoft for using those debuggers:
o Getting Started with WinDbg (User-Mode)
<https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/drivers/debugger/getting-started-with-windbg>
o Getting Started with WinDbg (Kernel-Mode)
<https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/drivers/debugger/getting-started-with-windbg--kernel-mode->

There is also, apparently, a Usenet ng for the Windows debuggers:
o <http://tinyurl.com/microsoft-public-windbg>
o <http://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/microsoft.public.windbg>
o <http://microsoft.public.windbg.narkive.com>

Anyway, where I am now is:
a. I ran the Windows "Driver Verifier" overnight (nothing happened)
b. I ran all the HDD & memory tests in Hirens BootCD (nothing bad)
c. I'm gonna run, each night, a different "live OS" (time will tell)

If and when I get the next BSOD, I think I'm better equipped to debug it
with the help from Igor's detailed BSOD diagnosis plan.

[Mike Easter]

Arlen Holder wrote:

> Bear in mind sometimes the machine did not even boot to the POST screen!

What exactly do you mean by that? What was going on when the post
stopped, a blank screen? Did the machine beep?

> o This was my first indication of a hardware problem.
>

Indeed. Unless it was just some kind of temporary hiccup.

> Often, especially before I turned off fastboot & hibernation & restart,
> the POST screen would come up, but it would hang there forever.
>

Hang at what phase of the POST?

> In those cases, where I couldn't even get past POST, I was forced to
> re-image the operating system, in its entirety, via a boot DVD.
>
> Since this has been going on for months, I re-imaged with the latest OS
> available at each time (although once I accidentally used an older OS):
> o The Windows 10 May 2020 Update is finally now released 5/27/2020
> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/microsoft.public.windowsxp.general/C8uKEw5vIMA>
>
> Only after I did a few things did this POST-hangup stop:
> 1. I pulled out all unnecessary hardware (e.g., the Nvidia graphics card)

Does that mean that the system has its own integrated graphics chipset
in the northbridge or what? On a system which *requires* a gfx card, it
can't be removed.

On one of my systems w/ a gfx card and integrated gfx, I don't think I
would do my troubleshooting w/ my card removed unless I had proven
something wrong w/ it.

>
> I probably re-imaged Windows three or four times since January due to these
> boot corruptions, each time I used the same HDD (which I will not do the
> next time around, just to eliminate the HDD itself as a variable).
>

Earlier I asked if this machine could run another OS such as the
Hiren's, or better yet a live linux for hours or a day, but I got no answer.

Another reason I would like to see a linux booted on the system is
because I would like to see an inxi report on its hardware. inxi will
show me the cpu, ram, mobo, graphics and more, depending on what is
still connected such as ethernet and wifi.

>
> Before I re-installed the OS and the software & copied back the data...
> a. I put the 1TB WD "Blue" HDD in another machine
> b. I backed up all the data to that other machine
> c. I then ran a low-level format of that HDD on that other machine
>

I don't believe a user can truly do a 'low level format' of a modern
hdd. LLF for real is done at the factory for the life of the drive.
I've seen some articles for tools, but I don't believe that is really a LLF.

> Even with a perfectly_clean_ Windows 10 Pro, before the hundreds of

> tweaks, a BSOD resulted within a few days to weeks of that 'fresh install'.
>

So, what would be happening with the machine use between the fresh
install and the BSOD? You must've been doing SOMETHING w/ it.

> The boot corruptions causing the PC to not get past the POST screen only
> "seem" to have stopped recently, by forcing the machine NOT to reboot
> after a BSOD, and by forcing the operating system NOT to save the
> hibernation/fastboot file but to boot completely clean each time.
>
> I still get BSODs, but I can consistently get past the POST screen now,
> and, when I do get a BSOD, I restore to the previous restore point.
>

Then THAT is reusing an old install.

>> That is, I agree w/ wasbit that we should be talking about a fresh
>> install, not something that is a 'used' saved image.
> Never in my life have I ever proposed, on any operating system, whether
> that be Android, Linux, iOS, or Windows, that a "cloned image" be
> re-installed.
>

Isn't that what a restore point is?

> If I had to reinstall because of "something" in the setup (particularly
> perhaps a "something" in the Windows' God-awfully complex "registry"), then

> I'm gonna_always_ install fresh.

> o Fresh OS
> o Fresh Apps
> o Old data & old menus & old folder hierarchy (they're simply copies)
>

What do you mean 'old menus'?

>> Also, do I understand that the hardware can run various other OSes (such
>> as linux) for hours or even days?
> Yes. The BSOD only happens with Windows, although, at times, I had problems
> installing Ubuntu but I also have Tails, Knoppix, CentOS, et al. on DVD.
>

I suspect those linuxes are all 'old' but any of them could do inxi.

How about booting that Knoppix and getting me an inxi report. Also,
tell me which v. of Knoppix it is. The one I have is 8.6 from 2019 Aug,
but it isn't on a USB currently because it is so fat at 4.5G, much
bigger than most linux .iso/s.

> With this "Rufus" tool you turned me on to, I like the idea that I can boot
> to USB, which seems to be more reliable on my old system (the DVD is
> admittedly flaky as I often have to paperclip the DVD out). [I leave the
> connections to the DVD drive disconnected unless/until I actually need it.]
>

USB is wayway better than opticals. Also we now have USB3. I currently
only have one machine w/ usb3. I may add a usb3 card to another that I
use a lot to boot live linux.

> In summary, one by one, I'm using freeware to diagnose what the problem is,
> but, as you noted, a fresh install is paramount, as is me trying to figure
> out whether it's hardware or software.

--
Mike Easter

[Mike Easter]

Mike Easter wrote:
> I suspect those linuxes are all 'old' but any of them could do inxi.
>
> How about booting that Knoppix and getting me an inxi report.  Also,
> tell me which v. of Knoppix it is.  The one I have is 8.6 from 2019 Aug,
> but it isn't on a USB currently because it is so fat at 4.5G, much
> bigger than most linux .iso/s.

I looked at the knoppix .iso I have parked and it was 8.6, but there's
an 8.6.1 so I fetched that which dl was surprisingly quick for a big fat
.iso; there must've been a lot of seeds in the torrent swarm, I didn't
notice that.

In booting the knoppix, I had forgotten how 'elaborate' the live .iso
is. One can control which desktop, lxde, kde, gnome boots and whether
or not Adriane speaks. I believe it has the most 'robust' (over-)
collection of apps I've seen on a linux distro. Sometime I'll have to
look thru' all that.

The reason I suggested the knoppix was because it has a rep for having
the ability to handle a lot of different hardwares, in terms of a smart
algo for booting.

--
Mike Easter

[Arlen Holder]

On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 11:02:42 -0700, Mike Easter wrote:

>> Bear in mind sometimes the machine did not even boot to the POST screen!
>
> What exactly do you mean by that? What was going on when the post
> stopped, a blank screen?

Hi Mike,
Thanks for pointing out that I wasn't clear.
o I may be calling "POST" what is really just an HP startup screen.

I'm sure I have a photo of it somewhere in this original thread:

o Windows 10 BSOD indicates a hardware problem - but what hardware is the problem?

<http://www.pcbanter.net/showthread.php?t=1110105>
<https://alt.comp.os.windows-10.narkive.com/oL7PTNKu/windows-10-bsod-indicates-a-hardware-problem-but-what-hardware-is-the-problem>
Note the archives suck for <http://tinyurl.com/alt-comp-os-windows-10>.

Ah. Here. This is what I'm calling the "POST" screen:
<https://i.postimg.cc/zGpQ89NH/bsod11.jpg>
(It's from the opening post of that thread.)

It does all sorts of different things when it's acting up:

Most of the time it works correctly, and the Windows flag & ferris wheel
comes up after the POST screen, but...
a. Sometimes that POST screen doesn't even SHOW the HDD
b. Sometimes it doesn't even show the DVD drive
c. Sometimes it doesn't show the USB line (which I need to snap a photo of)
d. Sometimes it hangs at that USB line
e. Sometimes, it gets past all that, and just puts a dash on the screen
f. Sometimes it "boots" to a windows flag, but no ferris wheel

And yet, other times, that ferris wheel spins (and then it boots).

Note: I have a _lot_ of experience with this damn BSOD! :)

> Did the machine beep?

Funny you mention that, 'cuz one out of fifty or so cold boots, I get a
long continuous beep, and nothing happens. I shut off the power and wait
until the Motherboard and PowerSupply LEDs go out, and then it boots fine.

> Hang at what phase of the POST?

Given what I'm calling "POST" is this HP screen:
<https://i.postimg.cc/zGpQ89NH/bsod11.jpg>
You'll notice it doesn't say anything about USB controllers at the bottom.

When a good boot happens, it gets to the USB controller line.
(I'll have to reboot to snap a photo for you for the next post.)

And, sometimes, always AFTER a BSOD, it hangs at that USB line and never
gets to Windows at all.

Other times, again, always AFTER a BSOD, it gets to Windows, but it puts
the blue flag forever, without the rotating ferris wheel of dots. Like in
this picture from the old thread, but without the spinning ferris wheel at
the bottom:
<https://i.postimg.cc/Pq30z0Fn/bsod08.jpg>

I've let it sit at that flag for hours and hours, and it will NEVER boot
unless that ferris wheel is spinning.

All this happens AFTER a BSOD, if for no other reason that the machine is
usually just left on, at full power (I turned off all sleep functions)

>> Only after I did a few things did this POST-hangup stop:
>> 1. I pulled out all unnecessary hardware (e.g., the Nvidia graphics card)
>
> Does that mean that the system has its own integrated graphics chipset
> in the northbridge or what? On a system which *requires* a gfx card, it
> can't be removed.

It's an HP Pavilion P6230 with the Aloe H RS880-UATX motherboard and
AMD 785G Phenom II chipset with the integrated ATI Radion HD 4200 graphics.

I generally run two monitors either out the motherboard as I'm doing now,
or out the Nvidia GEForce 210 graphics card, which is currently in but not
turned on (the BIOS controls this, but when I replaced the CMOS battery, I
turned off the check for a graphics card in the expansion slot).

> On one of my systems w/ a gfx card and integrated gfx, I don't think I
> would do my troubleshooting w/ my card removed unless I had proven
> something wrong w/ it.

The graphics work just fine because it has both the ATI Radion on the
motherboard, and the Nvidia GEForce in an expansion slot.

Funny thing is I don't notice ANY decrease in performance when I pull the
graphics card, even as it must be saving me memory.

As for not booting without cards in place, I did experiment by removing all
four memory cards, and THEN it doesn't boot (and it beeps too!).

But it will boot with just one memory card, or all four, or just two
(whether in successive slots, or alternating slots).

> Earlier I asked if this machine could run another OS such as the
> Hiren's, or better yet a live linux for hours or a day, but I got no answer.

Currently, I don't have a dual boot set up as I only recently re-imaged
this HDD, and it's a PITA to keep doing that, so I didn't install Linux as
dual boot.

It will boot to a live CD without problem when the dvd drive isn't flaking
out. I also have an old Sony DVD drive the size of a toaster, that I can
plug in but my point is that it will run fine on a live DVD operating
system such as Knoppix, Tails, Ubuntu, etc., but it's not usable as such
(because it's too slow and nothing is saved).

However, now that I have bootable USBs, thanks to you, I will nightly check
by booting to the Windows 10 PE from Hirens Boot CD, and let that sit
overnight to see if I awake to a BSOD in the morning.

> Another reason I would like to see a linux booted on the system is
> because I would like to see an inxi report on its hardware. inxi will
> show me the cpu, ram, mobo, graphics and more, depending on what is
> still connected such as ethernet and wifi.

Well, I can boot to Ubuntu quite easily, and I can install it as a dual
boot, but there are plenty of other ways to get the hardware (e.g., speccy,
sandra, etc.).

> I don't believe a user can truly do a 'low level format' of a modern
> hdd. LLF for real is done at the factory for the life of the drive.
> I've seen some articles for tools, but I don't believe that is really a LLF.

What I meant is I didn't use "Quick Format".
I used the "slow" format.

>> Even with a perfectly_clean_ Windows 10 Pro, before the hundreds of
>> tweaks, a BSOD resulted within a few days to weeks of that 'fresh install'.
>>
> So, what would be happening with the machine use between the fresh
> install and the BSOD? You must've been doing SOMETHING w/ it.

Well. Ok. You caught me in a lie. I generally put a minimum of stuff on it,
but nothing fancy. For example, I put a browser or two. And I always add
Irfanview. And Paint.NET (which requires .NET Framework). And MS Office
2007, for example.
o SOLVED: How to download an ISO image for Office 2007 Pro
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.comp.microsoft.windows/G18Kf8y0wDE>

Normal things like that I add just to make the system work - but they're on
all my machines (and billions of others out there) so I don't think it's
the little bit of things that I add to a system like the browsers that
causes the problem.

I do have hundreds of tweaks, but the BSODs happen with or without those
tweaks.

>> I still get BSODs, but I can consistently get past the POST screen now,
>> and, when I do get a BSOD, I restore to the previous restore point.
>>
> Then THAT is reusing an old install.

Oh. That. Yes. Indeed. That _is_ re-using an old install. Yes. I agree.
o But the BSODs happen on a fresh install too; so I don't think it's that.

>> Never in my life have I ever proposed, on any operating system, whether
>> that be Android, Linux, iOS, or Windows, that a "cloned image" be
>> re-installed.
>>
> Isn't that what a restore point is?

Um... er... no. I don't think so. At least not how Microsoft uses the word.

A "restore point" is created by this process:
o Win+R > sysdm.cpl > [System Protection][Create]
o Name = I just installed Microsoft Office 2007 restore point > [OK]

Each time I add something "major", I create a new restore point:
o To restore to an older point, I could use: Win+R > rstrui.exe

In practice, I don't ever use that restore point unless a BSOD chews up the
boot such that I have to restore, and even then, I use the blue screens
that Microsoft provides to restore to an older version that last worked.
o <https://i.postimg.cc/gk3FFSr3/bsod07.jpg>

To clarify, there are two _different_ restorations going on:
a. After a BSOD, if the machine won't boot, I revert to a restore point.
b. If that fails, then I have to re-image the entire HDD (after formatting)

In the months of BSODs averaging, oh, I don't know, maybe one or two a
week, I've had to go back to dozens of previous restore points, but only
had to re-image the drive about 3 or four (or so) times with a new OS
(after copying off the data by connecting the drive to another machine).

>> o Old data & old menus & old folder hierarchy (they're simply copies)
>>
> What do you mean 'old menus'?

Hehhehheh... you don't know you're talking to someone who has menus figured
out so well on Microsoft Windows that my menus from 20 years ago on Windows
XP work (almost) perfectly on Windows 10 today.

On all my machines, even my wife, kids, and grandkids' machines.

I can literally copy my Windows XP menu off my old Windows XP machines (one
of which is still running and in use as it's tied to the printer/scanner)
and they will work (almost) perfectly on Windows.
o Why does anyone bother to install Classic Shell on Windows
if all they want is the WinXP accordion-style sliding cascade Start Menu?
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.comp.freeware/u0YHG35cE-E>

The only thing that is different is I changed the organization slightly.
I have entire tutorials on how to do this, but it's not the BSOD problem.
o Tutorial for setting up Windows in a well organized KISS philosopy
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.comp.freeware/i9Cz3POZFCo>

Note: I'm probably the only person on the planet who can do this, it seems,
and yet, it's trivial to copy twenty-year-old WinXP menus to Win10 and have
them work just as well today as they did decades ago.

All you have to do is be organized & consistent with that organization.
o (which is likely why I'm the only one on the planet who can do this)

HINT: If Microsoft hired me to set up their menu system, everyone would
be using them consistently today - because I know how to do menus!

Here's a copy of one of my posts, for example, from:
o Classic (Shell)-Start Lives On with Release 4.4.109
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.comp.freeware/y1p27R0EFOQ>
=== < cut here for paste below > ===
The same task-based WinXP menus:
<http://img4.imagetitan.com/img.php?image=18_editors01.jpg>

Work just fine when copied over to Windows 10:
<http://img4.imagetitan.com/img.php?image=18_editors02.jpg>

The task-based Cascade Menu is native to both Windows XP & to Win10:
<http://img4.imagetitan.com/img.php?image=18_editors03.jpg>

Windows 10 has a *native* Cascade Menu which is almost exactly the same in
almost all ways as the WinXP Cascade Menu.
<http://img4.imagetitan.com/img.php?image=18_menu1.png>

In fact, I copied my WinXP Cascade Menu over to Windows 10, and it
worked out of the box (with very minor tweaks due to honing of my
cascade menus over the decades).
<http://img4.imagetitan.com/img.php?image=18_winxp_cascade758.jpg>

The point of this post is simply to let users know that, while "Classic
Shell" does a *lot* more than just give the user a WinXP-style Cascade
Menu, if the only thing you want from Classic Shell freeware is the WinXP
style Cascade Menu, then Windows 10 already has that native.
<http://img4.imagetitan.com/img.php?image=18_win10_cascade989.jpg>

=== < cut here for paste above > ===

>> Yes. The BSOD only happens with Windows, although, at times, I had problems
>> installing Ubuntu but I also have Tails, Knoppix, CentOS, et al. on DVD.
>>
> I suspect those linuxes are all 'old' but any of them could do inxi.

I create a Ubuntu DVD every year around the April time frame.
o Although now that I know about Rufus, maybe it will be a USB stick?

> How about booting that Knoppix and getting me an inxi report. Also,
> tell me which v. of Knoppix it is. The one I have is 8.6 from 2019 Aug,
> but it isn't on a USB currently because it is so fat at 4.5G, much
> bigger than most linux .iso/s.

I have a Knoppix v8.1 from 20170905 in my hands as we speak.
o What do you want from it?

a. I shut down the PC and re-connect the internal DVD drive
b. I boot the PC to the Knoppix DVD
c. Then you want me to run something called "inxi"?

I can do that (I may redact identifying serial numbers).

> USB is wayway better than opticals. Also we now have USB3. I currently
> only have one machine w/ usb3. I may add a usb3 card to another that I
> use a lot to boot live linux.

I don't have USB 3 on my desktops for sure as my desktops are from circa
2009 or so, but I did notice that Windows boots MUCH FASTER to the Hirens
Win10PE than it does from the DVD.

The DVD takes, oh, I don't know, ten minutes or so to boot.

I'll reboot and do two things, at least:
1. I'll snap a photo of the current screen I'm calling a "POST", and,
2. I'll boot to knoppix and run the "inxi" command.

[Mike Easter]

Arlen Holder wrote:
> Mike Easter wrote:
>
>>> Bear in mind sometimes the machine did not even boot to the POST screen!
>>
>> What exactly do you mean by that? What was going on when the post
>> stopped, a blank screen?
>

> Ah. Here. This is what I'm calling the "POST" screen:
> <https://i.postimg.cc/zGpQ89NH/bsod11.jpg>

Yep.

> It does all sorts of different things when it's acting up:
>
> Most of the time it works correctly, and the Windows flag & ferris wheel
> comes up after the POST screen, but...
> a. Sometimes that POST screen doesn't even SHOW the HDD
> b. Sometimes it doesn't even show the DVD drive
> c. Sometimes it doesn't show the USB line (which I need to snap a photo of)
> d. Sometimes it hangs at that USB line

Hmmm. That /does/ sound like some kind of hardware problem. I was
thinking this machine was older than it is. I see from a later pic
below that it is a 2009 BIOS and lotsa ram at 32G (what do you need lots
of ram for?) and a strong CPU.

> e. Sometimes, it gets past all that, and just puts a dash on the screen
> f. Sometimes it "boots" to a windows flag, but no ferris wheel
>
> And yet, other times, that ferris wheel spins (and then it boots).
>
> Note: I have a _lot_ of experience with this damn BSOD! :)
>

One thing that hurts a mobo is some kind of cap problem. It might be
worthwhile to do a visual inspection:

These pix aren't big but you can zoom some
https://www.geeksinphoenix.com/blog/post/2013/08/11/How-to-check-your-desktop-computer-for-failed-capacitors.aspx


And this http://www.capacitorlab.com/visible-failures/

>> Did the machine beep?
>
> Funny you mention that, 'cuz one out of fifty or so cold boots, I get a
> long continuous beep, and nothing happens. I shut off the power and wait
> until the Motherboard and PowerSupply LEDs go out, and then it boots fine.
>

Once I find out more about the mobo bios, I can look up its beep codes.

I found HP's beep code, but it doesn't have a code for one long beep.

>> Hang at what phase of the POST?
>
> Given what I'm calling "POST" is this HP screen:
> <https://i.postimg.cc/zGpQ89NH/bsod11.jpg>
> You'll notice it doesn't say anything about USB controllers at the bottom.
>

That is the same bsod11.jpg as the above; it initializes usb controllers
in the middle.

I always tho't a restore point was an 'image'.

> Each time I add something "major", I create a new restore point:
> o To restore to an older point, I could use: Win+R > rstrui.exe
>
> In practice, I don't ever use that restore point unless a BSOD chews up the
> boot such that I have to restore, and even then, I use the blue screens
> that Microsoft provides to restore to an older version that last worked.
> o <https://i.postimg.cc/gk3FFSr3/bsod07.jpg>
>
> To clarify, there are two _different_ restorations going on:
> a. After a BSOD, if the machine won't boot, I revert to a restore point.
> b. If that fails, then I have to re-image the entire HDD (after formatting)
>
> In the months of BSODs averaging, oh, I don't know, maybe one or two a
> week, I've had to go back to dozens of previous restore points, but only
> had to re-image the drive about 3 or four (or so) times with a new OS
> (after copying off the data by connecting the drive to another machine).
>
>>> o Old data & old menus & old folder hierarchy (they're simply copies)
>>>
>> What do you mean 'old menus'?
>
> Hehhehheh... you don't know you're talking to someone who has menus figured
> out so well on Microsoft Windows that my menus from 20 years ago on Windows
> XP work (almost) perfectly on Windows 10 today.
>

I read what you said below, but I still can't tell if a menu file is a
text or binary that can 'do something'. Where 'do' means 'execute'.

Just 'inxi' is very brief/basic. It is a script that has all kinds of
information production. If we get a well fleshed out -F, we/you can
extract whatever you want from it.

inxi -Fx

If you want to see whatall it can do, you can look at inxi -h.

> I can do that (I may redact identifying serial numbers).
>
>> USB is wayway better than opticals. Also we now have USB3. I currently
>> only have one machine w/ usb3. I may add a usb3 card to another that I
>> use a lot to boot live linux.
>
> I don't have USB 3 on my desktops for sure as my desktops are from circa
> 2009 or so, but I did notice that Windows boots MUCH FASTER to the Hirens
> Win10PE than it does from the DVD.
>
> The DVD takes, oh, I don't know, ten minutes or so to boot.
>

Yeah. I used to burn linux CDs back when linux .iso/s would fit on a
CD; thankfully by the time all the .iso/s needed to be on DVD, I became
a USB writer for that.

> I'll reboot and do two things, at least:
> 1. I'll snap a photo of the current screen I'm calling a "POST", and,
> 2. I'll boot to knoppix and run the "inxi" command.
>

inxi -Fx

But I don't really need all that. I'm pretty sure I found the HP beep
codes, but they don't include one long beep.

I'm beginning to become concerned about the cap business.

--
Mike Easter

[Mike Easter]

Arlen Holder wrote:
> c. Sometimes it doesn't show the USB line (which I need to snap a photo of)
> d. Sometimes it hangs at that USB line

I found a discussion in which there was mention of USB problems like a
short.

Tell the history of what all has been plugged into USB ports and what is
currently there.

--
Mike Easter

[Flasherly]

On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 15:25:29 -0700, Mike Easter <Mi...@ster.invalid>
wrote:

>But I don't really need all that. I'm pretty sure I found the HP beep
>codes, but they don't include one long beep.
>
>I'm beginning to become concerned about the cap business.

Caps be insidiously intermittent. I once smoked a Forton/Sparkle
server-grade PS on an ASUS MB, everyone assured me, no MB or its
capacitors could actually do that. A returned NewEgg MB I bought
half-price on the assumption of someone's fears to follow through
deeper, I nursed along even after five years' usage. In any event,
the loss of that beautifully built Forton turned me pale green. A PS
as heavy and solid as a brick. (I'd run into a spate of replaced PS,
cheap units on the ASUS, which would seem resuscitate it for awhile,
running a year or two more, before foolishly tossing it a Fortron at
some possible stage of accelerated ASUS decrepitude.) Switched to
Gigabyte and, like good ol' Lot in proverbial Sodom and Gomorrah,
walked away and never looked back.

The solid beep, it might offhand seem I've run into, with mis-matched,
improperly seated CPUs and memory. Even an extra PS unit around is
nice for comparative "breadboard" modular swaps, off a foldout
cardtable, at some elemental level. Not so bad...intriguing
possibilities of not so totally dead in one little pipsqueak beep to
be altogether irretrievably unmitigable, as say, the mighty arm of a
lightning bolt, in my backyard, that knocked me out of bed, last year,
before frying a modem along with my last dead motherboard, as it
happens.

[Arlen Holder]

On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 15:25:29 -0700, Mike Easter wrote:

> Just 'inxi' is very brief/basic. It is a script that has all kinds of
> information production. If we get a well fleshed out -F, we/you can
> extract whatever you want from it.
>
> inxi -Fx
>
> If you want to see whatall it can do, you can look at inxi -h.

Hi Mike,
I just saw this where I'll respond just to the Knoppix inxi stuff.
o HP-Pavilion, Product NY549AA-ABA p6230y
o Mobo FOXCONN model ALOE v1.01
o BIOS American Megatrends v5.02 08/31/2009
o CPU Quad core AMD Phenom II X4 810
o Graphics Card 1 Advanced Micro Devices RS880 Radeon HD 4200
o Graphics Card 2 Nvidia GT218 GeForce 210
etc.

What I love about Knoppix is that it recognizes everything!
o <https://i.postimg.cc/BnMXSWXb/bsod105.jpg>

I didn't see your post 'till now so I didn't run "-Fx" but "-F":
o <https://i.postimg.cc/g0mndzYf/bsod103.jpg>

It has both the Nvidia and ATI Radion graphics (it's using the ATI):
o <https://i.postimg.cc/MXJzD5Hh/bsod104.jpg>

As for the POST hanging forever at the last USB line, here is my POST
screen just now, where the USB line that sometimes doesn't show up is the
_last_ line (just above the line that says "Press <F10> to enter Setup..."
o <https://i.postimg.cc/dtjbpwx7/bsod101.jpg>

Sometimes, when it won't boot, it stops at the "6th Drive" line
and never shows that last line for zero USB mass storage devices.

When it does that, there's _nothing_ I can do other than try, try, try
again, and I wiggle everything, and remove everything, and put it back,
and wiggle s'more, and generally, within a half hour or so, it boots
again past that last USB line.

Note I have only half the RAM right now, as part of the debug process,
and that I've switched the SATA cables to different motherboard
connections.

What I adore about Knoppix is it _recognizes_ all the hardware, and always
did, so I was easily able to output the inxi results to the Windows
filesystem mounted on /media/sda2/:
o <https://i.postimg.cc/dt6fnnhr/bsod102.jpg>

More on your other questions separately.

[Arlen Holder]

On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 15:25:29 -0700, Mike Easter wrote:

> Hmmm. That /does/ sound like some kind of hardware problem. I was
> thinking this machine was older than it is. I see from a later pic
> below that it is a 2009 BIOS and lotsa ram at 32G (what do you need lots
> of ram for?) and a strong CPU.

Hi Mike,
I think what happens, but I'm not sure, is there's some kind of "flaky"
hardware intermittence, which causes the strange problems on POST that I
described.

When it won't get past the POST, it _has_ to be hardware, right?

I'm dead at that point, since it won't boot off of anything; so what I do
is shut the power and pull the cord until the green lights go out.

Then I remove everything that is removable, and I disconnect every cable
that is disconnectible, and I pull out every card that can be pulled out,
and then I put it all back, in a different connector if possible (or in
different order, as with the RAM).

After doing that, the darn thing boots past the POST.
o Why? Hell if I know why.

> One thing that hurts a mobo is some kind of cap problem. It might be
> worthwhile to do a visual inspection:

I'm sure it's "something" - but I've looked with a magnifying glass.

> That is the same bsod11.jpg as the above; it initializes usb controllers
> in the middle.

My fault for not being precise. When it boots properly, like it did just
now, then there is another USB line at the bottom of the POST screen:
o <https://i.postimg.cc/dtjbpwx7/bsod101.jpg>

That last line, in the good POST shown above, is as follows:
o 00 USB mass storage devices found and configured

When it won't get past the POST, it never gets to that line, but I can't
always implicate the USB controller because sometimes POST won't even see
the DVD drive or the HDD, so it's not only the USB that causes POST to
fail.

And yet, the built-in HP hardware diagnostics (F9) say it's all clean.

>> A "restore point" is created by this process:
>> o Win+R > sysdm.cpl > [System Protection][Create]
>> o Name = I just installed Microsoft Office 2007 restore point > [OK]
>>
> I always tho't a restore point was an 'image'.

I'm not a big one for semantics, so I'll call it whatever you want to call
it. There are two "things" that I boot to when the OS gets corrupted.
1. I can sometimes "repair" the OS by reverting to a "restore point".
2. Other times, the OS is so badly chewed up I need to format & start over.

Whatever you want to call those two things, is what I do.
o What I _never_ do, is make a "clone" (as in, oh, say, "dd" style stuff)

I don't believe in "clone backups" even though the hoi polloi seem to love
them; I think most people want back what they had before.

For me, a fresh install, after I tweak things, is always the same as I had
before as I set up all my machines, since about the early 90s, the same.
C:\app (for my apps when installed)
C:\data (for my data)
C:\tmp (for temporary stuff)
C:\software (for my installer archive, lately I keep this on USB sticks)

My hierarchy for the apps is the same as the hierarchy for the installers.
o And it's the same as my "start" menu hierarchy

C:\app\{archiver,browser,cleaner,database,editor,finance,game,etc.}
C:\software\{archiver,browser,cleaner,database,editor,finance,game,etc.}
menu > {archiver,browser,cleaner,database,editor,finance,game,etc.}

As I claimed, I'm likely the most consistently organized person you have
ever seen in your life, on a computer anyway, where even my phone has the
same hierarchies simply because we "do" the same things on all computers.

> I read what you said below, but I still can't tell if a menu file is a
> text or binary that can 'do something'. Where 'do' means 'execute'.

Bearning in mind my file system hasn't changed (appreciably) since about
1995 (we do the same things now as we did then, pretty much), look at this
screenshot of my Windows XP menus:
o WinXP has: menu > editor > text > gVim 7.4.lnk (the ".lnk" is hidden)
<http://img4.imagetitan.com/img.php?image=18_editors01.jpg>

Notice on this screenshot, of Windows 10, it's the exact same structure:
o Win10 has: menu > editor > text > gVim 8.0.lnk (the ".lnk" is hidden)
<http://img4.imagetitan.com/img.php?image=18_editors02.jpg>

Literally, I copy the "menu" folder from WinXP and put it on Win10 and it
works, almost completely, out of the box (the links changed only slightly).
<http://img4.imagetitan.com/img.php?image=18_editors03.jpg>

If I had used the example of Irfanview, the links wouldn't have changed at
all (since Irfanview doesn't put the version number in the link name).

My "menu" folder is copied for decades, from one machine to another, where
it started with Windows 95, and then went to 2000 and then XP and then 7,
Vista and 10 (I skipped 8 for the most part).

It's the exact same "menu" file tree, literally.
o I just tweak it a bit (e.g., change "gVim 7.4" to "gVim 8.0").

The shortcuts work because I install all the programs where they belong:
Win95: C:\app\editor\pic\irfanview\irfanview.exe
Win2K: C:\app\editor\pic\irfanview\irfanview.exe
WinXP: C:\app\editor\pic\irfanview\irfanview.exe
Win7: C:\app\editor\pic\irfanview\irfanview.exe
WinVista: C:\app\editor\pic\irfanview\irfanview.exe
Win10: C:\app\editor\pic\irfanview\irfanview.exe

So a menu from Win95 works on Windows 10 because it's just a symbolic link:
o menu > editor > pic > irfanview.lnk ~> C:\app\editor\pic\irfanview\irfanview.exe

I'm probably the only person on the planet who does this, but it's so easy,
I always cringe when I hear people claim that the WinXP cascade menus
aren't on Windows 10 (they never left Windows).

If Microsoft hired me to solve their menu problem, everyone would have a
fantastic menu system, IMHO, that works on all machines, using any
structure they like (the organization isn't the magic - the magic is
in the consistency of organization).

Now, some things do change over time, e.g., here's my current browser menu:
o <https://i.postimg.cc/Mpwvz1pF/browser09.jpg>

It took a while to figure out how to keep all three MS browsers there:
o <https://i.postimg.cc/QN6rbSQD/browser05.jpg>

Sometimes, for testing, I break the browsers down into their various types:
o <https://i.postimg.cc/PrcV1pXF/browser06.jpg>

But more often than not, I just lump all the browsers together:
o <https://i.postimg.cc/q7VC5YXV/microsoft-browsers01.jpg>

Notice though that I tweak the hell out of Windows' GUI (for efficiency):
o <https://i.postimg.cc/D0J1tgDZ/windows-tweak.jpg>

Lots of those browsers didn't exist in Windows 95; so that part changes.
o But it's still installed in c:\app\browser\{brave,epic,icedragon,etc.}

So the menu is still the same:
o menu > browser > {brave,epic,icedragon,iceweasel,ie,iridium,etc.}

Note: I don't use plurals, where most people would use "browsers", but
I use "browser" because then I don't have to guess if it's plural.

> Yeah. I used to burn linux CDs back when linux .iso/s would fit on a
> CD; thankfully by the time all the .iso/s needed to be on DVD, I became
> a USB writer for that.

I noticed the Knoppix 8.1 has a utility on the desktop that burns the boot
image to USB and which _also_ allows some user read/write space on the USB.

I need to figure out how to do that for Ubuntu!

> I'm beginning to become concerned about the cap business.

Now do you see why I asked for hardware stress-testing diagnostic freeware?
:)

[Arlen Holder]

On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 16:49:17 -0700, Mike Easter wrote:

> Tell the history of what all has been plugged into USB ports and what is
> currently there.

I have normal stuff in the USB ports, which, when I'm running bare bones,
is just the keyboard and mouse, and that's it for things plugged in.

Most of the time, I keep my "SOFTWARE" USB drive in because that's where I
keep my system log, which I access, for each machine, using this command:
o Win+R > syslog

That way, I can plug the same USB stick into _any_ computer & it will
automatically edit the correct system log for that computer as shown here:
o What solution do you use to figure out what USB drive letter in a Windows scripted command?
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.comp.microsoft.windows/HkfHsx6chBk>

Anyway, think the USB ports "might" be a red herring, if only because when
POST fails, it doesn't always fail on the last USB line, and when I get a
BSOD, I don't notice any correlation with what's in the USB ports.

What seems to happen is:
a. Rarely, but sometimes, POST will fail to recognize key components.
b. More often, about once or twice a week, I'll get a sudden Win10 BSOD.
c. About 10% of the time, that BSOD will corrupt the Win10 boot record.
(although far less once I turned off autorestart, fastboot, & hibernate)
d. About 90% of the OS corruptions, I can "repair" with a restore point.
e. For the 10% of the time that I can't, I have to format & start over.

The part that is the most work is formatting & starting over since I add
hundreds of tweaks to Windows to get it to work efficiently for me.

What I desperately need is hardware stress-testing diagnostic freeware.

[Mike Easter]

Arlen Holder wrote:
> When it won't get past the POST, it_has_ to be hardware, right?
>

In a black/white world; hardware/software, such behavior isn't software
per se. But, hardware can include 'firmware', so hardware is an
umbrella term just like software is, consider CPU hardware w/ (software)
vulnerability.

>
>> One thing that hurts a mobo is some kind of cap problem. It might be
>> worthwhile to do a visual inspection:
> I'm sure it's "something" - but I've looked with a magnifying glass.
>

That is all I know.

>
> That last line, in the good POST shown above, is as follows:
> o 00 USB mass storage devices found and configured
>

Ah, so. That also eliminates a funky usb device, I think, unless there
was a funky 'hardware' mobo usb or mobo to case usb problem. Hardware
short, not usb device short.

On some systems, IPMI, inxi -s or -sx can report/read PS voltages, but
not any of mine.

>
> And yet, the built-in HP hardware diagnostics (F9) say it's all clean.
>

I don't think that means much as a negative.

>
>> I read what you said below, but I still can't tell if a menu file is a
>> text or binary that can 'do something'. Where 'do' means 'execute'.
> Bearning in mind my file system hasn't changed (appreciably) since about
> 1995 (we do the same things now as we did then, pretty much), look at this
> screenshot of my Windows XP menus:

No; I understand the concept of your menu/s; I just don't know exactly
what the/your file/s is/are. I would presume that it is text or its
equivalent, not some kind of binary which executes or a text which is a
script that runs something.

In any case, that concern is about Win software crashing due to
software, not POST failing.

>
>> Yeah. I used to burn linux CDs back when linux .iso/s would fit on a
>> CD; thankfully by the time all the .iso/s needed to be on DVD, I became
>> a USB writer for that.
> I noticed the Knoppix 8.1 has a utility on the desktop that burns the boot

> image to USB and which_also_ allows some user read/write space on the USB.

>
> I need to figure out how to do that for Ubuntu!
>

Actually Rufus can do that for Ub and Ub-like distro/s now.
Historically rufus could not, so it was necessary to use 'something
else'. I usually used Yumi, also a Win, which can not only have space
for persistence, but also can facilitate multibooting, so I can put a
number of linuxes on one USB.

Recent Rufus releases have enabled persistence, but only if a
Ubuntu-type .iso is the candidate to be written.

>> I'm beginning to become concerned about the cap business.
> Now do you see why I asked for hardware stress-testing diagnostic freeware?
> :)

I have absolutely zero skills at reading dumps whether in Win or linux.
But it might be something one could post somewhere.

The whole idea of figuring out a hardware problem is to id something
which you can actually fix. For me, that doesn't include cap
replacement, but only something as simple as a coin battery or a bad
seating problem. I've had that.

I'm glad you mentioned knoppix earlier; I dl/ed the newest and have
booted it up in a couple of its modes, LXDE and KDE. It is surprisingly
light in its ram to the live desktop, well under 300 meg incl the KDE at
265. That is significantly lower than Neon's which has been the lowest
I've checked so far. I have an 'argument' that KDE is 'generally'
lighter than XFCE, while KDE has an old rep for being heavier and XFCE
has an old rep for being lighter.


--
Mike Easter

[Arlen Holder]

On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 19:16:27 -0700, Mike Easter wrote:

> In a black/white world; hardware/software, such behavior isn't software
> per se. But, hardware can include 'firmware', so hardware is an
> umbrella term just like software is, consider CPU hardware w/ (software)
> vulnerability.

Hi Mike,
The funny thing is I searched, of course, where this lack of B&W clarity is
rampant in the search results.

For example, I search for "hardware stress testing" freeware and what I get
is stuff like GPU-Z, CPU-Z, HWinfo, Sandra, TMeter, GeekBench, Furmark,
CrystalDiskInfo, Aomei, Easeus, speedfan (and a host of temperature apps
such as coretemp, cpuid, openhwmonitor, realtemp, etc.), hijackthis,
process monitor, etc...

Most of that is simply reporting stuff, not stress-testing stuff.
o Pretty much the only stress tests are RAM, CPU, and GPU (it seems).

But I have likely a problem, perhaps, in the motherboard wiring.
o None seem to stress that.

Anyway, there's no dearth of articles "professing" to answer the question.
o As always, the immense cost of freeware is in finding what works!

o How to stress-test your PC hardware
<https://www.pcworld.com/article/2028882/keep-it-stable-stupid-how-to-stress-test-your-pc-hardware.html>

o 18 Top Computer Stress Test Software To Test CPU, RAM And GPU
<https://www.softwaretestinghelp.com/computer-stress-test-software/>

o Huge List of Computer Stress Test Software
<https://www.trentonsystems.com/blog/list-of-computer-stress-test-software>

o Top 8 best tools to stress test and monitor your PC
<https://pcgamehaven.com/best-tools-stress-test-monitor-pc/>

o How To Stress Test Your Hardware and Keep Your PC Stable
<https://www.tested.com/tech/pcs/762-how-to-stress-test-your-hardware-and-keep-your-pc-stable/>

o Best Tools to Stress Test Your Computer
<https://www.addictivetips.com/hardware/cpu-ram-stress-test/>

o Stress Test Your Hardware to Troubleshoot Problems
<https://lifehacker.com/stress-test-your-hardware-to-troubleshoot-problems-and-5619416>

o The freeware stress test tool HeavyLoad
<https://www.jam-software.com/heavyload>

o The 6 Best Free Programs for Stress Testing Your PC
<http://blog.logicalincrements.com/2015/12/the-best-programs-for-stress-testing-your-pc/>

o CPU Stress Test Online
<https://cpux.net/cpu-stress-test-online>

o How to Stress-Test CPUs and PCs
<https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/stress-test-cpu-pc-guide,5461-13.html>

o 15 Best Tools to Stress Test Your PC
<https://www.gearprimer.com/technology/best-tools-stress-test-pc-cpu-ram-gpu/>

o 16 Best Tools To Stress Test Your PC
<https://www.rankred.com/best-tools-stress-test-pc-cpu-gpu-ram/>

o The 11 Best Tools to Stress Test Your PC
<https://techguided.com/best-tools-to-stress-test-p-cpu-ram-gpu/>

o 8 Best Tools for Stress Testing your PC
<https://premiumbuilds.com/guides/best-tools-for-stress-testing-pc-cpu-gpu-ram/>

o Best Tools To Stress Test Your PC: RAM & CPU Stress Tests
<https://www.wepc.com/how-to/stress-test-cpu-ram/>

> Ah, so. That also eliminates a funky usb device, I think, unless there
> was a funky 'hardware' mobo usb or mobo to case usb problem. Hardware
> short, not usb device short.

I think it "could" be in a motherboard trace or in a discrete component or
in wiring or a connector, etc., which is why I kind of need a stress test.

>> And yet, the built-in HP hardware diagnostics (F9) say it's all clean.
>>
> I don't think that means much as a negative.

I fully agree.

> I understand the concept of your menu/s; I just don't know exactly
> what the/your file/s is/are. I would presume that it is text or its
> equivalent, not some kind of binary which executes or a text which is a
> script that runs something.

Hmmm... the files are the same as everyone else's files.
o Take, for example, "irfanview"...
a. The executable is usually a binary (although it could be anything)
(e.g., C:\app\editor\pic\irfanview\irfanview.exe)
c. The cascaded menu itself is just a folder hierarchy (again, portable)
c:\{whatever}\menu\editor\pic\{the shortcut goes here}
b. The shortcut is a file (they're portable on all Windows systems)
(e.g., c:\{whatever}\menu\editor\pic\irfanview.lnk)
(TARGET = C:\app\editor\pic\irfanview\irfanview.exe)

It's that simple.

The only binary involved is (a) the irfanview executable, which "might" be
portable across platforms but I wouldn't bother since it's best to
re-install Irfanview on each system, even if they the same Windows version.

The other two types of files, (b) the menu folder tree, and (c) the
shortcut, are completely portable from Win95 to WinXP to Win2K... up to
Win10.

It's super simple.

> In any case, that concern is about Win software crashing due to
> software, not POST failing.

You are correct.
o My MAIN concern is tracking down the cause of the BSOD.

The BSOD is the cause of the Windows not booting.
o Never, as I recall, have I had the POST failure WITHOUT the BSOD first!

What does the BSOD have to do with the POST failure?
o Hell if I know.

But I agree that tracking down the cause of the BSOD is the problem set.

>> I need to figure out how to do that for Ubuntu!
>>
> Actually Rufus can do that for Ub and Ub-like distro/s now.
> Historically rufus could not, so it was necessary to use 'something
> else'. I usually used Yumi, also a Win, which can not only have space
> for persistence, but also can facilitate multibooting, so I can put a
> number of linuxes on one USB.
>
> Recent Rufus releases have enabled persistence, but only if a
> Ubuntu-type .iso is the candidate to be written.

I like "persistence", which I take to mean I can put files on the "live"
system, and they will be there the next time I boot to that live system.

That's nice as it makes the live system much more useful.

> I have absolutely zero skills at reading dumps whether in Win or linux.
> But it might be something one could post somewhere.

I have even less experience than you do on reading a dump file.
o The next BSOD, I expect to get some experience. :)

> The whole idea of figuring out a hardware problem is to id something
> which you can actually fix. For me, that doesn't include cap
> replacement, but only something as simple as a coin battery or a bad
> seating problem. I've had that.

I agree. I have desoldering tools and soldering tools and flux and solder
and solder suckers and wire wicks and heat sink clamps and thermal paste
and heat-shrink tubing, and a flukemeter and... and... and...

But if it's a component on the motherboard or a card, then that's that.
o I can re-attach a frayed wire for example, but these are multilayered
boards most likely, so, soldering even something as simple as a
tantalum cap would likely burn out the traces, if nothing else.

> I'm glad you mentioned knoppix earlier; I dl/ed the newest and have
> booted it up in a couple of its modes, LXDE and KDE.

I'm happy you like Knoppix. In the olden days, when Linux was a bitch with
respect to drivers (as was Microsoft in even earlier days), Knoppix was
shockingly able to figure out all the drivers it needed, and, at teh same
time, Knoppix specialized in accessing the underlying Windows disk.

Knoppix, of all these Linux distributions, seems specialized as a Windows
rescue disk. While Ubuntu nowadays can access Windows file systems, and
while Ubuntu nowadays pretty much has the drivers figured out, Knoppix was
way ahead of the pack, IMHO, in both those attributes:
a. Knoppix just worked with any driver it needed, and,
b. Knoppix always handily access Windows filesystems.

Both those are true today, but it's less of a distinction, I think, than it
was in the past, now that the Linux distributions pretty much do the same
thing.

That's why it's good to know you found the memory footprint low.
So that's another nice thing about Knoppix that I didn't know about.

[Arlen Holder]

On Mon, 14 Sep 2020 10:36:48 -0700, Mike Easter wrote:

> That is, this isn't a 'virgin' win10pro that is bsod/ing, it is a arlen
> frankenholder win10pro, nicht wahr?

Das ist richtig Herr Easter!
o You might wonder why I haven't responded all day, Mike.

I got my first BSOD in days, this morning, when I woke up.
o It took me about six hours of repetitive booting to get the OS back.

By the time I booted to a stable OS, I had a dozen handwritten pages of
what happened, where I've been up and alive for, oh, about three hours now,
but it took me six hours to be booted to a stable OS.
(I need to write the steps up separately, so that others can benefit.)

I must have booted twenty to thirty times in that process, where I
documented every step with a photo if I could (some flashed by too fast).

Here's just the short summary of my day today...

o This is the PC hardware:
<https://i.postimg.cc/FR03FQMc/bsod201.jpg>

o This is just some of the dozen pages of steps it took to boot today:
<https://i.postimg.cc/gJzjkzQt/bsod202.jpg>

o BSOD #1 (with white lines) SYSTEM SERVICE EXCEPTION
<https://i.postimg.cc/BnCkxJXG/bsod203.jpg>

o BSOD #2 (with white lines) SYSTEM THREAD EXCEPTION NOT HANDLED
<https://i.postimg.cc/5t7rRpB7/bsod204.jpg>

o BSOD #3 SYSTEM THREAD EXCEPTION NOT HANDLED
<https://i.postimg.cc/RFWY5fGM/bsod205.jpg>

o BSOD #4 (just the white lines)
<https://i.postimg.cc/tT8MXTmF/bsod206.jpg>

o BSOD #5 (with white lines) DRIVER OVERRAN STACK BUFFER
<https://i.postimg.cc/FFJ6Ty7p/bsod207.jpg>

o BSOD #6 KERNEL SECURITY CHECK FAILURE
<https://i.postimg.cc/gkFTQxhW/bsod208.jpg>

o Choosing the latest restore point:
<https://i.postimg.cc/HswhgT07/bsod209.jpg>

o Back to Windows 10 again, like nothing ever happened:
<https://i.postimg.cc/bwqFY4LV/bsod210.jpg>

Now, it's working just fine!
--
As with religion & God, both computers & Microsoft work in mysterious ways.

[Arlen Holder]

Update: <https://i.postimg.cc/SxNC7CTy/heavyload01.jpg>

I just happened upon this excellent summary by wasbit from Sept 6:
o *Benchmark/Stress Test Freeware*, by wasbit
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.comp.freeware/ZIA12GCPuSg>

I arbitrarily picked "HeavyLoad" freeware out of that list to test:
o It has been running all four cores of my CPU at 100% for a while
<https://i.postimg.cc/SxNC7CTy/heavyload01.jpg>

(I ran it overnight and the system did not crash, for example.)

If you need pointers, here's setup information from my syslogs...
<https://www.jam-software.com/heavyload>
<https://downloads.jam-software.de/heavyload/HeavyLoad-x64-Setup.exe>
Name: HeavyLoad-x64-Setup.exe
Size: 15534704 bytes (14 MiB)
SHA256: D4CE244DDB5EF7DFCE3E650A2ADB3B63964992DE8088DF6716E26B7D440001C8

But wasbit's excellent stress-testing thread has those cites.

It wants to go in C:\Program Files\JAM Software\HeavyLoad
I put it where it belongs, in C:\app\hardware\cpu\heavyload
The target is C:\app\hardware\cpu\heavyload\HeavyLoad.exe
--
Note: I always put software where it belongs, which I get to define.

[Mike Easter]

Arlen Holder wrote:
> (I ran it overnight and the system did not crash, for example.)

That is, you started w/ your tweaked W10 and used either the installed
or the portable HeavyLoad running in its full cpu mode for > 8 h.

I don't think 'heavy load' testing is as important (in this context) as
'routine' type machine activity for longer period of time than hours.
More like days.

Something like some kind of looped browser testing for a few days.

--
Mike Easter

[Arlen Holder]

On Wed, 16 Sep 2020 09:08:05 -0700, Mike Easter wrote:

> That is, you started w/ your tweaked W10 and used either the installed
> or the portable HeavyLoad running in its full cpu mode for > 8 h.

Well, it only ran for as long as I slept, which was less than 8 hours.
o Maybe six? (I had expected a BSOD in the morning so I didn't time it.)

> I don't think 'heavy load' testing is as important (in this context) as
> 'routine' type machine activity for longer period of time than hours.
> More like days.

I agree since the problem is clearly either random or intermittent...
o What I'm gonna do is run the minidump analyzers the next BSOD.

Unfortunately, it's not easy to get a minidump output set up properly.
o That last BSOD didn't create a new log - but the next BSOD should
<https://i.postimg.cc/YCZHCSnD/bsod212.jpg>

What I _really_ think we need is a stress tester that tests things like
'cables' and 'caps' and 'card connections".

> Something like some kind of looped browser testing for a few days.

Given it took 12 pages of "steps" to get the machine to boot on the last
BSOD of a couple days ago, I'm surprised you didn't ask what that last
"step" was that enabled it to finally boot.
o <https://i.postimg.cc/0yV7YFP3/bsod211.jpg>

Each "step" was really small, and lots were repetitive (e.g., you have to
boot three times before Windows will bring up the "Do you want to repair"?

The final step, believe it or not, that enabled me to get into the
"Do you want to repair" mode, was, get this, reseating the memory cards by
swapping them, from 1,2,3,4, to 4,3,2,1. Yup.

I don't know if this tells us anything, because it has to be repeatable,
but the next BSOD, after the third boot, if it won't bring up the "Do you
want to repair" option, I will swap the RAM back from 4,3,2,1 to 1,2,3,4.

[Mike Easter]

Arlen Holder wrote:
> I'm surprised you didn't ask what that last
> "step" was that enabled it to finally boot.

Not really; I have no comprehension or insight into why whatever happens
at the BSOD has some great impact on a reboot or rather a 'boot again'.

- one possibility is that the install is some kind of 'mess' which is
not overcome by your restore strategies
- another possibility is that some kind of hardware condition persists
in spite of all kinds of efforts to get the hardware back to a 'cold'
state, such as where the software is on the hdd
- I don't think the difficulty and the steps are at all informative

--
Mike Easter

[Arlen Holder]

On Wed, 16 Sep 2020 11:34:26 -0700, Mike Easter wrote:

> Not really; I have no comprehension or insight into why whatever happens
> at the BSOD has some great impact on a reboot or rather a 'boot again'.
>
> - one possibility is that the install is some kind of 'mess' which is
> not overcome by your restore strategies
> - another possibility is that some kind of hardware condition persists
> in spite of all kinds of efforts to get the hardware back to a 'cold'
> state, such as where the software is on the hdd
> - I don't think the difficulty and the steps are at all informative

Hi Mike,

I think the BSOD is one problem, which only then causes the second problem.
o The second problem is the BSOD corrupts the boot session.

However... and this is a biggie... the BSOD is repeatable (six times) for a
period after the first recoverable reboot (only the BSOD changes in name).

Actually, let me check my photographic date stamps...

o BSOD #1 (with white lines) SYSTEM SERVICE EXCEPTION
<https://i.postimg.cc/BnCkxJXG/bsod203.jpg>

Time: 20200914 06:50am

o BSOD #2 (with white lines) SYSTEM THREAD EXCEPTION NOT HANDLED
<https://i.postimg.cc/5t7rRpB7/bsod204.jpg>

Time: 20200914 07:09am

o BSOD #3 SYSTEM THREAD EXCEPTION NOT HANDLED
<https://i.postimg.cc/RFWY5fGM/bsod205.jpg>

Time: 20200914 07:28am

o BSOD #4 (just the white lines)
<https://i.postimg.cc/tT8MXTmF/bsod206.jpg>

Time: 20200914 10:32am

o BSOD #5 (with white lines) DRIVER OVERRAN STACK BUFFER
<https://i.postimg.cc/FFJ6Ty7p/bsod207.jpg>

Time: 20200914 10:49am

o BSOD #6 KERNEL SECURITY CHECK FAILURE
<https://i.postimg.cc/gkFTQxhW/bsod208.jpg>

Time: 20200914 2:10pm

The final repair happened at 3:18pm, and that has been stable for
the past few days.

Note that each time, in between BSODs, I was able to get Windows to boot;
usually it happened automatically with a "diagnosing" & "automatic repair",
but sometimes it booted directly to Windows (rarely though).

In general, it took a few restarts to get it back to Windows between BSODs.

Also note there were periods where I left the desk so the time is only the
elapsed time unless the BSOD happened in front of me, where the pictures
were taken when I returned to the BSOD screen as a fait accompli.
--
I took a picture of every step, which I need to document better.

[Mike Easter]

Arlen Holder wrote:
> The second problem is the BSOD corrupts the boot session.

I've never heard of such a thing, but if that were true, then right
after a BSOD you should be able to 'immediately' boot a Hiren or linux
live USB.

You could also boot something like the Kaspersky rescue disk (as a USB)
to scan for boot sector virus.

--
Mike Easter

[Arlen Holder]

On Wed, 16 Sep 2020 12:58:28 -0700, Mike Easter wrote:

> I've never heard of such a thing, but if that were true, then right
> after a BSOD you should be able to 'immediately' boot a Hiren or linux
> live USB.

Hmmmmmmmmmm....... you know, that's a GOOD IDEA!
o You show a grasp of the situation which is, at times, better than mine.

I agree with you.
a. If the BSOD is corrupting the boot session, then,
b. Booting to something else, should work just fine.

> You could also boot something like the Kaspersky rescue disk (as a USB)
> to scan for boot sector virus.

In order to boot to anything, I need a POST, so the next time it BSODs, I
will shut the machine down, and then record, in video, whether there is a
POST after that.

Eventually I can get to a POST though, so I should build a "rescue stick".
o Create a recovery drive
<https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4026852>

While Microsoft doesn't say how big it needs to be, I think this'll work:
1. Put an 8GB empty USB stick into the PC
2. Win+R > %windir%\system32\RecoveryDrive.exe

[Mike Easter]

Arlen Holder wrote:
> Mike Easter wrote:
>
>> I've never heard of such a thing, but if that were true, then right
>> after a BSOD you should be able to 'immediately' boot a Hiren or linux
>> live USB.
>
> Hmmmmmmmmmm....... you know, that's a GOOD IDEA!
> o You show a grasp of the situation which is, at times, better than mine.
>
> I agree with you.
> a. If the BSOD is corrupting the boot session, then,
> b. Booting to something else, should work just fine.
>
>> You could also boot something like the Kaspersky rescue disk (as a USB)
>> to scan for boot sector virus.
>
> In order to boot to anything, I need a POST, so the next time it BSODs, I
> will shut the machine down, and then record, in video, whether there is a
> POST after that.
>

If the sequence is:
- BSOD followed by
- consistent inability to POST
- then the same hardware problem that is causing the inability to POST
likely *caused* the crash/BSOD; as opposed to
- a software/windows crash/BSOD isn't going to cause a POST failure,
but the other way around

Sometimes a machine might 'accidentally' fail to POST but that should
not persist through such as removing the power to the PS.

The business about capacitor discharge is that the capacitors discharge
*sooner* if the power to the PS is NOT removed; but I believe an
alternate strategy which involves removing the power to the PS (by rear
case switch or power block switch) can be aided by holding down the case
power switch.

> Eventually I can get to a POST though, so I should build a "rescue stick".
> o Create a recovery drive
> <https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4026852>
>

I don't know exactly what that is for win10, but it doesn't seem any
better or more useful than the Hirens PE.

> While Microsoft doesn't say how big it needs to be, I think this'll work:
> 1. Put an 8GB empty USB stick into the PC
> 2. Win+R > %windir%\system32\RecoveryDrive.exe
>

I read that it wants 8-16.

--
Mike Easter

[Arlen Holder]

On Wed, 16 Sep 2020 17:12:02 -0700, Mike Easter wrote:

> If the sequence is:
> - BSOD followed by
> - consistent inability to POST
> - then the same hardware problem that is causing the inability to POST
> likely *caused* the crash/BSOD;

Hi Mike,

Again, you know this better'n I do, as I agree with you.
o The hardware problem likely caused both the BSOD & the inability to boot.

> as opposed to
> - a software/windows crash/BSOD isn't going to cause a POST failure,
> but the other way around

I don't think at this point that the BSOD is due to software, per se.

> Sometimes a machine might 'accidentally' fail to POST but that should
> not persist through such as removing the power to the PS.

Yup. EVERY boot, of about a score or two (I didn't count them but I wrote
'em down so that I can count them if I want to), was from a position of
power removed from the computer for long enough for the green LED to go off
on the power supply & on the motherboard.

> The business about capacitor discharge is that the capacitors discharge
> *sooner* if the power to the PS is NOT removed; but I believe an
> alternate strategy which involves removing the power to the PS (by rear
> case switch or power block switch) can be aided by holding down the case
> power switch.

What I did, every time, was:
a. Shut down the machine via the power button
b. Turn the power strip off
c. Wait for the green LED on the motherboard to go out
d. Turn the power strip back on
e. Turn the machine on via the power button

I was religious about it as I wanted every step to be only a small
deviation from the prior step if there was any (e.g., if I hit a different
key after POST to do something else).

>> Eventually I can get to a POST though, so I should build a "rescue stick".
>> o Create a recovery drive
>> <https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4026852>
>>
> I don't know exactly what that is for win10, but it doesn't seem any
> better or more useful than the Hirens PE.

I have never used a Windows "RECOVERY" drive before, but it "claims" to be
able to recover your operating system, which Hirens PE does _not_ do.

>> While Microsoft doesn't say how big it needs to be, I think this'll work:
>> 1. Put an 8GB empty USB stick into the PC
>> 2. Win+R > %windir%\system32\RecoveryDrive.exe
>>
> I read that it wants 8-16.

Oh, I read plenty. It's all wrong. Most of what I've read said that for a
32-bit Windows 10, you need 8GB and for a 64-bit Windows 10 you need 16GB.

Turns out the Microsoft web page I referenced _did_ say, and it said 16GB;
but the software itself also did say, and it clearly said 8GB, and both
were wrong.

It took 5.47GB and it named the drive "RECOVERY" with the following dir:
o Boot
o EFI
o sources
o System Volume Information
o bootmgr 405kb
o BOOTNXT 1kb
o reagent.xml 2kb

So all always benefit from every action, here is my log how I created it.

o Create a recovery drive
<https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4026852>

1. Boot to Windows normally
2. Make sure you have no USB sticks in the computer
3. Some say the USB stick needs to be 16GB for a 64-bit Windows 10
(but others say 8GB will suffice if you don't add "system files").
4. Win+R > %windir%\system32\RecoveryDrive.exe
Create a recovery drive
[x]Back up system files to the recovery drive > [Next]
Please wait...
About five minutes later, it said:
Connect a USB flash drive:
The drive must be able to hold at least 8GB and everything on the
drive will be deleted.
That's odd, because the 16GB drive was already connected.
So I unplugged & re-plugged it in again (in another USB port).
Please wait...
About three minutes later, it said:
"Select the USB flash drive"
The drive must be able to hold at least 8GB
and everything on the drive will be deleted.
There is a warning:
"Everything on the drive will be deleted.
If you have any personal files on this drive,
make sure you've backed up the files.
[Create] (4:15
Creating the recovery drive
Formatting the drive
Copying utilities
Copying system (this took 2-1/2 hours)
The recovery drive is ready.
[Finish]
5. The resulting USB stick was named RECOVERY & was 5.47GB.

o To restore or recover using the recovery drive:
<https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/12415/windows-10-recovery-options>

Those are confusing instructions indeed, but here they are:
1. Connect the recovery drive
2. Then "turn on" your PC.
(Hmmm... to me, that "boots" the PC to POST.)
3. Press Win+L to get to the sign-in screen
(I never heard of that; is it a replacement for "F8"?)
4. Then restart your PC by locating at the bottom right
of your login screen a "power" button icon and then
a "restart" icon.
5. That starts your PC in the WinRE environment
(aka the Windows Recovery Environment)
6. You will see a "Choose an option" screen.
7. Select "Troubleshoot"
8. Then select "Advanced Options"
9. Then select "System Restore"

(I'm not sure "when" to press the "Win+L" for example,
i.e., whether that's before, during, or after POST).

[Arlen Holder]

On Thu, 17 Sep 2020 02:12:07 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder wrote:

> (I'm not sure "when" to press the "Win+L" for example,
> i.e., whether that's before, during, or after POST).

BTW, Microsoft's instructions for recovering are confusing.
I'll just have to actually do it at some point because they don't even
bother to tell you when you're supposed to used "Win+L" for example.

o To restore or recover using the recovery drive:
<https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/12415/windows-10-recovery-options>

You're just supposed to guess, I guess. :)

It's kind of like what settings you're supposed to use to generate a Hirens
Boot CD USB from Rufus 3.11 for BIOS (and not for UEFI); you just have to
guess. I've always been annoyed by lousy instructions like that, which is
why my tutorials are at least explicit, step by step, such that you could
cut and past most of my tutorials, and if you start with the same versions
of software, they should work out of the box.

Sigh.

Anyway, I never see the Windows lock screen, i.e., the idiotic one that
happens _before_ the actual login screen, 'cuz I turned that waste of time
off long ago.

Eliminate the lock screen upon startup & go right to the login prompt:
o HKLM\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\Personalization > NoLockScreen = 1
1. Regedit [HKLM\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows]
2. Add a New Key => Personalization
3. Add to it a New 32-bit DWORD -> NoLockScreen
4. Set the Value = 1

In summary, I'm ready, I think, for the next time Windows won't boot after
a BSOD, if I can get to POST, I will press Win+L a hundred times, and then
I'll hope it gets me to the point where I can use the 5-1/2 GB RECOVERY USB
stick I just created (which took 2-1/2 hours crunching time to create).

[Mike Easter]

Arlen Holder wrote:
> The hardware problem likely caused both the BSOD & the inability to boot.

In the past, I kept a spare ATX power supply around because it was much
cheaper to buy them when they were on sale than when one died and they
were NOT on sale.

It is a pain to test a PS 'manually' with just a multimeter and paperclip.

Under troubleshooting circumstances, it would be nice to have a nice PS
tester if it didn't cost very much. I see some <$10.

I see an article 'Learn to troubleshoot power supply problems'
> Just about any intermittent problem can be caused by a faulty power supply.
> Any power-on or system startup failures or lockups
> Spontaneous rebooting or intermittent lockups during normal operation


I also notice how casually he says
> Some problems cannot be found through direct measurement, so having a spare supply available for substitution is essential. If the problems disappear with the installation of a “known good” unit, you have just confirmed a diagnosis.


As if there weren't some significant disassembly/reassembly involved w/
'swapping' a PS which hasn't shown itself to be faulty for the spare PS
which you don't even have :-/

--
Mike Easter

[Mike Easter]

Mike Easter wrote:
> I see an article 'Learn to troubleshoot power supply problems'

https://www.techrepublic.com/article/learn-to-troubleshoot-power-supply-problems/

by Marsha Glick

Good on her :-)

Cybergators article
https://www.techrepublic.com/article/running-your-own-it-business-takes-determination/




--
Mike Easter

[Arlen Holder]

On Thu, 17 Sep 2020 09:04:55 -0700, Mike Easter wrote:

>> I see an article 'Learn to troubleshoot power supply problems'
>
> https://www.techrepublic.com/article/learn-to-troubleshoot-power-supply-problems/

It could be the power supply, for all I know, and you're right, I don't
have a "spare" power supply (plus, the cabling coming out of those things
is atrocious)...

But I am still running stress tests, which, reporting back as I am wont to
do, here's one I ran overnight...

o Free PC stress test software tools
<https://www.thewindowsclub.com/pc-stress-test-free-software>

o StressMyPC
<http://www.softwareok.com/?Microsoft/StressMyPC>
<http://www.softwareok.com/Download/StressMyPC.zip>
Name: StressMyPC.exe
Size: 135560 bytes (132 KiB)
SHA256: 4C37A8212053BCAACE782A81C0144A5D609F526BC8E1A9FA7077DF5CA1BE079C

I ran that tool above overnight but I haven't had a BSOD in days.
--
Unfortunately, this stress test tool wouldn't install.
o System Stability Tester
<http://systester.sourceforge.net/downloads.php>
<https://sourceforge.net/projects/systester/files/systester/1.5.0/systester-1.5.1-win64.msi/download>

<https://phoenixnap.dl.sourceforge.net/project/systester/systester/1.5.0/systester-1.5.1-win64.msi>
Name: systester-1.5.1-win64.msi
Size: 6776832 bytes (6618 KiB)
SHA256: FEF8AB5E42973BB87DB17D2D9FB4032F093B4ADFAFE94CDC5C4B60FE6893C459
Failed to install.

[Arlen Holder]

Update:
What on earth do I need to do to get Windows to create crash dumps?

Today was the first BSOD in a few days, where it happened when I was away:
o <https://i.postimg.cc/PrNVbMsw/newbsod01.jpg>
TimeStamp: 9/25/2020 / 18:31
Your device ran into a problem and needs to restart.
We're just collecting some error info, and then you can restart.
0% complete
System Service Exception
What failed: win32kbase.sys

I did a controlled shutdown & cold startup - which BSOD'd even before
getting to the Windows 10 login prompt (how does it even do that?)
o <https://i.postimg.cc/tCfSBVpm/newbsod02.jpg>
TimeStamp: 9/25/2020 / 18:37
Your device ran into a problem and needs to restart.
You can restart.
System Thread Exception Not Handled

Then, as I had previously promised, I removed all four memory cards.
o And then put them back _exactly_ in the same slots as I took them out.

It booted!
o The first BSOD debugger I ran was "Who Crashed" which said:
Crash Dump Analysis
Crash dumps are enabled on your computer.
Crash dump directories:
C:\Windows
C:\Windows\Minidump
No valid crash dumps have been found on your computer
Conclusion
Crash dumps are enabled but no valid crash dumps have been found.
In case you are experiencing system crashes, it may be that crash dumps
are prevented from being written out. Check out the following article
for possible causes: If crash dumps are not written out.
<https://www.resplendence.com/whocrashed_dumpnotwritten>

Since I boot off the net, I didn't check that out immediately.
o Then I ran BlueScreenView by Nir Sofer but it found no logs either.

I ran AppCrashView but there was nothing for today in its logs.
o Then I ran WinCrashReport, but it too, was devoid of data.

I deactivated the killswitch Marek Novotny kindly mostly wrote for me
o And visited the prescribed web page for why crash logs don't exist.
<https://www.resplendence.com/whocrashed_dumpnotwritten>

Your system must be configured to write out crash dump files
in case of a system error. Your system can be configured to support
different types of crash dump files. For best results, you should
configure your system for full memory dumps whenever possible.
To configure your system to write out crash dumps, check out the article
<https://www.resplendence.com/whocrashed_enablingdumps>
(the problem is those "My Computer" instructions don't work)
Enabling Crash Dumps:
o How to configure system failure and recovery options in Windows
<http://support.microsoft.com/kb/307973>
Win+R > systempropertiesadvanced > Startup and Recovery > [Settings]
System failure > [x]Write an event to the system log

Note: My crash dump log settings are set correctly!
o <https://i.postimg.cc/52CPTNt9/newbsod03.jpg>

Also note there were only old crash dump files in
o %LocalAppData%/crashdumps/*.dmp

I then followed these instructions to generate crash dumps:
o How to generate crash dumps on a Windows machine
https://helpx.adobe.com/xd/kb/how-to-generate-crash-dump-on-windows-machine.html
HKLM\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\Windows Error Reporting\LocalDumps
By creating an "Expandable String Value" from scratch of:
DumpFolder = %LOCALAPPDATA%\CrashDumps
And by creating a new DWORD (32-bit) value of:
DumpCount = 10 (hex)
And by creating another new DWORD (32-bit) value of:
DumpType = 2 (hex)
As shown in this screenshot:
o <https://i.postimg.cc/YSBXHK46/newbsod04.jpg>

I thought I had done that before, but maybe it got wiped out when Windows
reverted to an older System Restore Point, so, to forestall that from
happening again, I then made _two_ duplicate System restore points!

Then I ran the Windows Reliability Monitor:
o Win+R > perfmon /rel
Which said:
Windows was not properly shut down 9/26/2020 6:41 PM
The previous system shutdown at 6:23:12 PM on ý9/ý25/ý2020 was unexpected.
o <https://i.postimg.cc/nrxjF24w/newbsod05.jpg>

Notice that just before the BSOD Stop Error, were two Windows updates:
o Security Intelligence Update for Microsoft Defender Antivirus
KB2267602 (Version 1.323.1895.0) Successful Windows Update 9/25/2020 5:07PM
KB2267602 (Version 1.323.1011.0) Successful Windows Update 9/25/2020 6:16PM

That means the crash happened between 6:16PM & about 6:30PM.

As per:
o How to Read Shutdown and Restart Event Logs in Windows
<https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/78335-read-shutdown-logs-event-viewer-windows.html>
I ran:
o Win+R > eventvwr.msc
EventViewer (Local) > Windows Logs > System > (right click)
Filter Current Log > Event IDs = 41, 1074, 6006, 6008
But the only two entries around that time were _after_ the first BSOD:
o Error 9/25/2020 6:41:22 EventLog EventID=6008 TaskCategory=None
o Critical 9/25/2020 6:41:00 PM Kernel-Power EventID=41 TaskCategory=(63)

However, clicking on the "Critical" entry above came up with:
o The system has rebooted without cleanly shutting down first.
This error could be caused if the system stopped responding,
crashed, or lost power unexpectedly.

Clicking on the "Error" entry above came up with:
o The previous system shutdown at 6:23:12 PM on ý9/ý25/ý2020 was unexpected.

So I'm assuming the initial BSOD happened at 6:23:12 PM on ý9/ý25/ý2020.
o <https://i.postimg.cc/hPyfZYzY/newbsod06.jpg>

All I know is that it has something (maybe) to do with
o System Service Exception, What failed: win32kbase.sys

Not surprisingly, that's a common search term which finds a lot
of scams that try to sell a driver update tool, but this first
hit was from the microsoft domain:
<https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/bsod-systemserviceexception-win32kbasesys/1de149cd-2c4b-4a98-8af3-0553624e61e4>
o Win+R > cmd {Control+Shift+Enter} >
sfc /scannow
DISM.exe /Online /Cleanup-image /Scanhealth
DISM.exe /Online /Cleanup-image /Restorehealth
Where I ran the "sfc /scannow" three times in a row.
And then the two DISM commands, and then another "sfc /scannow".

This has more information about the "Win32Kbase.sys" file:
<https://www.thewindowsclub.com/fix-win32kbase-sys-bsod-error-on-windows-10>
"Win32kbase.sys is a Windows operating system Base Win32 Kernel Driver
file, which is located in the System32 folder. If it gets corrupted or
goes missing, your computer could throw up a Blue Screen.
To fix this error, we recommend the following 3 solutions:
Run System File Checker:
sfc /scannow
Run DISM to repair corrupt system image.
Dism /Online /Cleanup-Image /CheckHealth
Dism /Online /Cleanup-Image /ScanHealth
Dism /Online /Cleanup-Image /RestoreHealth
Run the Check Disk utility:
chkdsk /f C:

The Check Disk will run at the next boot, but the rest were clean:
o <https://i.postimg.cc/1377tygK/newbsod07.jpg>
--
This BSOD happens roughly about once or twice a week lately.

[Arlen Holder]

UPDATE:
a. I was able to get Windows to create crash logs finally (it's not intuitive)
b. The crash logs (or BSOD messages) tentatively implicate 3 specific files:
c:\windows\system32\drivers\fltmgr.sys (implicated in crash logs)
c:\windows\system32\ntoskrnl.exe (secondarily indicated in crash logs)
c:\windows\system32\win32kbase.sys (implicated in BSOD screen message)
c. All three files test good.
sfc /verifyfile=c:\windows\system32\drivers\fltmgr.sys (runs in a second)
sfc /verifyfile=c:\windows\system32\ntoskrnl.exe (takes a second to run)
sfc /verifyfile=c:\windows\system32\win32kbase.sys (runs in a second)

Technical questions that resulted are:
1. How can we tell exactly which restore point Windows finally ended up with?
2. How can we update all the outdated hardware drivers at once?

Gory Details (written so that many others can follow in our footsteps):

Last I reported yesterday afternoon, I had scheduled a checkdisk to run
on boot at about 9:20 PM after running sfc and dism cleanup operations:
o <https://i.postimg.cc/PrNVbMsw/newbsod01.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/tCfSBVpm/newbsod02.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/52CPTNt9/newbsod03.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/YSBXHK46/newbsod04.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/nrxjF24w/newbsod05.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/hPyfZYzY/newbsod06.jpg>
o <https://i.postimg.cc/1377tygK/newbsod07.jpg>

Just my luck that it BSOD'd during that checkdisk operation at about 9:26 PM:
o <https://i.postimg.cc/BnkhdZKy/newbsod08.jpg>

Your device ran into a problem and needs to restart.
We're just collecting some error info, and then you can restart.
0% complete

System Thread Exception Not Handled

Then, it BSOD'd instantly on the very next reboot at about 9:28 PM.
o <https://i.postimg.cc/vZJz0qRw/newbsod09.jpg>

Your device ran into a problem and needs to restart.
We're just collecting some error info, and then you can restart.

100% complete
Kernel Mode Heap Corruption

Note that the log file appears to have been created 100%.

o The third reboot then brought up the POST screen, which is a good sign:
<https://i.postimg.cc/nhbj56L2/newbsod10.jpg>

o Then came the obligatory "Preparing Automatic Repair" & ferris dots:
<https://i.postimg.cc/2S7Qxzxh/newbsod11.jpg>

o And then the "Diagnosing your PC" and ferris dots:
<https://i.postimg.cc/QNKcygbX/newbsod12.jpg>

o And the always inevitable "Windows couldn't load correctly":
<https://i.postimg.cc/j5pnb9XR/newbsod13.jpg>
To which I pressed [Restore]

o Which brought us to the "Attempting repairs" screen with ferris dots:
<https://i.postimg.cc/9QL4Mzp8/newbsod14.jpg>

o After a flag, ferris dots, & a flag with ferris dots, "Please wait":
<https://i.postimg.cc/j5PdzjHr/newbsod15.jpg>

o Once booted, I noticed from my menus Windows had reverted to an old
restore point, but I can't figure out how to tell which one it used.
(You'd think it's the last but it's not always the last one, particularly
when it takes many reboots to finally get to the login screen.)

o I ran the Windows Reliability Monitor which finally had some information:
<https://i.postimg.cc/dQgpbBcn/newbsod16.jpg>
Win+R > perfmon /rel
Control Panel > System & Security > Security & Maintenance

o The first of two logged failures was not all that informatively useful:
<https://i.postimg.cc/9FVtwRdC/newbsod17.jpg>
Control Panel > System & Security > Security & Maintenance > Problem Details
Date: 9/25/2020 9:38 PM
Problem: Windows failed to start because of missing system files
Description: Windows was unable to determine the problem.
Error code: 0x13a

o The second of two logged failures was only slightly more informative:
<https://i.postimg.cc/3R5DMV9Y/newbsod18.jpg>
Control Panel > System & Security > Security & Maintenance > Problem Details

This is the first of two entries at 9:39 PM:
Problem: Windows stopped working 9/25/2020 9:39 PM
Description
The computer has rebooted from a bugcheck.
The bugcheck was: 0x0000013a
(0x0000000000000012, 0xffffca0853202100, 0xffffca0858beb000, 0x0000000000000000)
A dump was saved in: C:\Windows\MEMORY.DMP.
Report Id: ba013a5c-613d-4fae-9d5a-a26f9ab3b1af.

This is the second of two entries at 9:39 PM:

Problem: Shut down unexpectedly 9/25/2020 9:39 PM
Problem signature
Problem Event Name: BlueScreen
Code: 13a
Parameter 1: 12
Parameter 2: ffffca0853202100
Parameter 3: ffffca0858beb000
Parameter 4: 0
OS version: 10_0_19041
Service Pack: 0_0
Product: 256_1
OS Version: 10.0.19041.2.0.0.256.48
Locale ID: 1033

o Than I ran the Windows System Event Viewer:
<https://i.postimg.cc/LsBZpvWP/newbsod19.jpg>

Win+R > eventvwr.msc
EventViewer (Local) > Windows Logs > System > (right click)
Filter Current Log > Event IDs = 41, 1074, 6006, 6008

Information: 9/25/2020 9:24:30 PM Source=User32 EventID=1074 Task=None
General: The process C:\Windows\Explorer.EXE (pcname) has initiated
the restart of computer pcname on behalf of user pcname\username
for the following reason: Other (Unplanned)
Reason Code: 0x0
Shutdown Type: restart
Comment:
General:
Log Name: System
Source: User32
Event ID: 1074
Level: Information
User: pcname\username
OpCode: Info
Logged: 9/25/2020 9:24:30 PM
Task Category: None
Keywords: Classic
Computer: pcname

Information: 9/25/2020 9:24:36 PM Source=EventLog EventID=6006 Task=None
General: The Event log service was stopped.
Log Name: System
Source: EventLog
Event ID: 6006
Level: Information
User: N/A
OpCode: Info
Logged: 9/25/2020 9:24:36 PM
Task Category: None
Keywords: Classic
Computer: pcname

o Then I ran "WhoCrashed" which implicated "fltmgr.sys" & "ntoskrnl.exe":
<https://i.postimg.cc/Y28Z9HFn/newbsod20.jpg>

On Fri 9/25/2020 9:28:05 PM your computer crashed or a problem was reported
crash dump file: C:\Windows\MEMORY.DMP
This was probably caused by the following module: fltmgr.sys
(FLTMGR!FltCbdqInitialize+0x2EC2)
Bugcheck code: 0x13A (0x12, 0xFFFFCA0853202100, 0xFFFFCA0858BEB000, 0x0)
Error: KERNEL_MODE_HEAP_CORRUPTION
file path: C:\Windows\system32\drivers\fltmgr.sys
product: Microsoft(c) Windows(c) Operating System
company: Microsoft Corporation
description: Microsoft Filesystem Filter Manager
Bug check description: This indicates that the kernel mode heap manager has detected corruption in a heap.
This appears to be a typical software driver bug and is not likely to be caused by a hardware problem.
The crash took place in a file system driver. Since there is no other responsible driver detected,
this could be pointing to a malfunctioning drive or corrupted disk.
It's suggested that you run CHKDSK.

On Fri 9/25/2020 9:28:05 PM your computer crashed or a problem was reported
crash dump file: C:\Windows\Minidump\092520-31906-01.dmp
This was probably caused by the following module: ntoskrnl.exe (nt+0x3F3EA0)
Bugcheck code: 0x13A (0x12, 0xFFFFCA0853202100, 0xFFFFCA0858BEB000, 0x0)
Error: KERNEL_MODE_HEAP_CORRUPTION
file path: C:\Windows\system32\ntoskrnl.exe
product: Microsoft(c) Windows(c) Operating System
company: Microsoft Corporation
description: NT Kernel & System
Bug check description: This indicates that the kernel mode heap manager has detected corruption in a heap.
This appears to be a typical software driver bug and is not likely to be caused by a hardware problem.
The crash took place in the Windows kernel.
Possibly this problem is caused by another driver that cannot be identified at this time.

Conclusion
2 crash dumps have been found and analyzed.
No offending third party drivers have been found.
Connsider [sic] using WhoCrashed Professional which offers more detailed
analysis using symbol resolution.
Also configuring your system to produce a full memory dump may help you.

o Time to check the hash for these three implicated files:
Name: fltMgr.sys
Size: 430392 bytes (420 KiB)
SHA256: 6390C3D54E955C42E73B74B1FDFB7BA45965DCBA273B34EDADAC265ADCDD9731
(Implicated by the crash logs.)

Name: ntoskrnl.exe
Size: 10847552 bytes (10 MiB)
SHA256: A577850D67D1B4DF94E64B3309169E20F3850D4BFA54C40DC9F4F09722E2F5EA
(Implicated by the crash logs.)

Name: win32kbase.sys
Size: 2951680 bytes (2882 KiB)
SHA256: 0BE65ECF2983B13A8C25687A5695A2542D184DEC45DD28C7D38190F25C06B3DF
(Implicated by an earlier BSOD message.)

o But nothing seems to be wrong with those the implicated files:
Win+R > cmd {control+shift+enter}
sfc /verifyfile=c:\windows\system32\drivers\fltmgr.sys (runs in a second)
sfc /verifyfile=c:\windows\system32\ntoskrnl.exe (takes a second to run)
sfc /verifyfile=c:\windows\system32\win32kbase.sys (runs in a second)

o I also ran the following commands, all of which came up clean:
sfc /scannow (mine took about 10 minutes for the first run)
sfc /scannow (mine took about 4 minutes for the second run)
sfc /scannow (mine took about 4 minutes for the third run)
Dism /Online /Cleanup-Image /CheckHealth (mine took five seconds)
Dism /Online /Cleanup-Image /ScanHealth (mine took thirteen minutes)
Dism /Online /Cleanup-Image /RestoreHealth (mine took about ten minutes)
sfc /scannow (mine took about seven minutes for this last run)

o Ran BlueScreenView which used C:\Windows\MiniDump implicating the same files:
<https://i.postimg.cc/nhkfvD9x/newbsod21.jpg>

Dump File: 092520-31906-01.dmp
Crash Time: 9/25/2020 9:28:05 PM
Bug Check Code: 0x0000013a
Parameter 1: 00000000'00000012
Parameter 2: ffffca08'53202100
Parameter 3: ffffca08'58beb000
Parameter 4: 00000000'00000000
Caused by Driver: FLTMGR.SYS
Caused by Address: FLTMGR.SYS+aa2f
Processor: x64
Crash Address: ntoskrnl.exe+3f3ea0
Full Path: C:\Windows\Minidump\092520-31906-01.dmp
Processors Count: 4
Major Version: 15
Minor Version: 19041
Dump File Size: 602,252
Dump File Time: 9/25/2020 9:39:31 PM

o Googling for what fltmgr.sys is, a problem is every scam on the planet
tells you a teeny tiny bit about the file, and then tries to sell you
their driver fixit tools.
o What Is Fltmgr.sys?
<https://www.partitionwizard.com/disk-recovery/fltmgr-sys.html>
It's a MS Windows file related to the file system filter manager.
It's used to make sure all files stay in their proper locations.

o What Is Fltmgr?
<https://www.file.net/process/fltmgr.sys.html>
Microsoft Filesystem Filter Manager is an essential Windows process
that allows installed files to be placed into their respective directories.
This utility is installed with the Windows OS, and is only triggered
when a minifilter driver is loaded. The Filter manager then connects
with the files system stack for a target volume.

o What causees FltMgr.sys Errors?
<https://www.personalcomputerfixes.com/how-to-prevent-fltmgr-sys-blue-screen-errors/>
The fltmgr.sys error is caused when Windows cannot read or process files
that are on the hard drive, usually because the File System Manager is
damaged or unreadable. If this is the case, it can cause hard drives
to stop working and the blue screen to appear.

o Googling for what ntoskrnl is,

o Googling for what win32kbase.sys is, I find the same scam tactics:
o ntoskrnl.exe (Wikipedia)
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ntoskrnl.exe>
In computing ntoskrnl.exe (short for Windows NT operating system kernel
executable), also known as kernel image, provides the kernel and
executive layers of the Microsoft Windows NT kernel space.

o Fix Ntoskrnl.exe BSOD on WIndows 10
<https://www.partitionwizard.com/disk-recovery/ntoskrnlexe-bsod.html>

o What causes the ntoskrnl.exe error?
<https://www.auslogics.com/en/articles/fix-ntoskrnl-exe-bsod/>
There's no one thing that could be said to be the cause.
The issue could be software or hardware related.
But the possible factors include:
Your device drivers are outdated, corrupt, or incompatible.
Faulty RAM.
Your RAM and local storage may be inadequate.
You overclocked your devices.
Some of your system files are corrupt.

o I checked my driver update which says I'm updated just fine:
Win+I > Update & Security > Windows Update > [Check for updates]

o I bit and tried the "auslogics driver update" but it will only update
three drivers every 4 hours (go figure).

<https://www.auslogics.com/en/articles/fix-ntoskrnl-exe-bsod/>
<https://downloads.auslogics.com/en/driver-updater/driver-updater-setup.exe>

Name: driver-updater-setup.exe
Size: 12768144 bytes (12 MiB)
SHA256: A9A07BCDF2D9663FC54B42DC2E754BD9AADABD8DA9D7CF428618808B7F076F81
C:\Program Files (x86)\Auslogics\Driver Updater
C:\app\hardware\driver\auslogic_driver_updater

When I ran the crippleware, it said:
ATTENTION: 10 drivers on your PC are either outdated or corrupt.

AMD SMBus Installed 8/30/2017 Available 9/25/2018 Outdated
PCI Standard ISA Bridge Installed 6/21/2006 Available 7/16/2012 Outdated
HID-compliant mouse Installed 6/21/2006 Available 4/24/2010 Outdated
Disk drive Installed 6/21/2006 Available 8/11/2013 Outdated
Microsoft iSCSI Initiator Installed 6/21/2006 Available 11/13/2008 Outdated
Standard Dual Channel PCI IDE Controller Installed 6/21/2006 Available 6/28/2013 Outdated
Standard Dual Channel PCI IDE Controller Installed 6/21/2006 Available 6/28/2013 Outdated
Realtek USB 2.0 Card Reader Installed 3/15/2018 Available 4/1/2019 Outdated
Realtek PCIe GbE Family Controller Installed 4/10/2015 Available 12/6/2018 Outdated
Generic PnP Monitor Installed 6/21/2006 Available 9/16/2010 Outdated

o I tried to update the remaining 7 device drivers manually:
Win+R > devmgmt.msc
And then I right clicked > Update Drivers - HID-Compliant Mouse >
Search automatically for drivers (but all I tested simply reported):
"The best drivers for your device are already installed"

What I'll do is every four hours, I'll update another 3 drivers.

o Googling for a good free driver update tool, I find this article:
o 11 Best Free Driver Updater Tools
<https://www.lifewire.com/free-driver-updater-tools-2619206>
1. Driver Booster
2. DriverPack Solution
3. Snappy Driver Installer
4. Driver Talent
5. DriversCloud
6. DriverIdentifier
7. Free Driver Scout
8. Driver Easy
9. Device Doctor
10. DriverHub
11. DriverMax

Where I opened a thread on what's the best update driver software:
o What's the one free Windows 10 driver update tool you prefer most and why?
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.comp.freeware/zhWjvKgDBt4>
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.comp.microsoft.windows/-yDz26GC6zA>
--
I'm determined to find out what is causing this BSOD but it's not easy!