Why is so much of Marvel animation just.....BAD?

[tmc...@gmail.com]

http://www.toonzone.net/forums/marvel-animation-forum/310719-why-so-much-marvel-animation-just-bad.html

http://www.toonzone.net/forums/marvel-animation-forum/310719-why-so-much-marvel-animation-just-bad.html#post4181798

I've been trying to get into Marvel cartoons for some time now, but what really bothers me is how so many Marvel cartoons are just so terrible. There are some real gems like Spectacular Spiderman, X-men Evolution, Avengers: EMH and some others....but the rest is either too dated and the other shows from the 2000's onward are just garbage.

I can't enjoy any of the 60's-80's Marvel shows for the simple reason that they're too dated with bad animation, boring storylines and flat characters. Most of 90's Marvel cartoons have aged badly too, with only Spiderman/X-men being halfway decent. Everything else like 90's Ironman, Avengers, Hulk, Silver Surfer, etc. is awful.

Then from the 2000's, that early CG Spiderman show from MTV was terrible, Ultimate Spiderman is terrible, Fantastic Four was terrible, and all the modern shows like Hulk, Avengers Assemble, Iron man Armored Adventures, etc. are all terrible.

So the only shows I was able to get any enjoyment out of was Spectacular, X-men Evolution and Wolverine and the X-men, and Avengers: EMH. Is that really it, 4 good shows aside from those who have nostalgia for 90's Spiderman/X-men?

http://www.toonzone.net/forums/marvel-animation-forum/310719-why-so-much-marvel-animation-just-bad.html#post4181859

Avid Arad (as Shawn Hopkins mentions) Man of Action and Jeph Loeb.

The 90's cartoon Hulk could have been on the same level as the 90's Spider-Man and X-Men but they mess it up on season 2.

Iron Man Armored Adventures i would say it's the only exception of what you mention, sure you think with the animation would be kinda crap but the writing was pretty good tho it did got silly on the final episodes of season 2.

http://www.toonzone.net/forums/marvel-animation-forum/310719-why-so-much-marvel-animation-just-bad.html#post4181890

looking book yeah the 90s had AWFUL, AWFUL animation but they were on a poor budget and made due what they had, I mean yeah things could have gone more smoothly if they used more simple designs but they still had continuity, character development, and mature themes so yeah they age Badly( I cant watch a episode of Spiderman Tas or X men TAS) but there was passion and heart in their projects.

http://www.toonzone.net/forums/marvel-animation-forum/310719-why-so-much-marvel-animation-just-bad.html#post4181893

I'm with you on Ultimate Spider-Man, but if the Fantastic Four show you're referring to is FF: World's Greatest Heroes, then I have to disagree. I enjoyed FF:WGH. No, it wasn't dark, edgy or serious, but it's the Fantastic Four; their stories have always been lighter and goofier than other Marvel lore. It's about 4 goofballs who fly into space and get mutated by magic space rays, then become celebrity superheroes who battle monsters and weirdos with their powers and kooky super-science; how deep and intricate is it supposed to get? WGH was OK if you came into it with the understanding that it was more of silly action-comedy than a straight-up action cartoon. Really, Ben's lame costume was the only thing that bugged about WGH.

http://www.toonzone.net/forums/marvel-animation-forum/310719-why-so-much-marvel-animation-just-bad.html#post4181897

Avi Arad was a big problem back in the 90's. He was obsessed with the toys, and he compromised a lot of stories and plots in order to get his favorite toy stand-ins featured. John Semper's interviews on Marvel Animation Age are pretty revealing in this regard, singling out one of Arad's obsessions, the Spider-Slayers. Another problem in the 90's as others mentioned were the designs, who were overly detailed and they didn't have the budget to keep them consistently animated. When you have Tokyo Movie Shinsha turning in crap animation something's wrong. The Marvel shows were also under stricter censorship protocols than the DC cartoons for the most part with some exceptions. Iron Man and Fantastic Four, being syndicated, were able to get a lot darker than the average 90's toon, and the first season of The Incredible Hulk could get as dark as B:TAS at times.

Things seemed to be turning a corner until recently, with Man of Action and Jeph Loeb presiding over what seems to be a reversion from more sophisticated writing and plots. I am getting really sick of seeing Spectacular Spider-Man credited as something Marvel made, though. SSM was produced by Sony. Marvel had very little involvement with it which is part of the reason why no Marvel heroes/villains outside Spidey's rogues gallery were featured in SSM.

And now of course, most episodes of Ultimate Spider-Man don't feature Spider-Man's rogues gallery so what have you.

http://www.toonzone.net/forums/marvel-animation-forum/310719-why-so-much-marvel-animation-just-bad.html#post4181923

If you grew up in the 60's & 70's, as I did, you'd have a better appreciation of the product of that era. To you, it might seem as though the original Spider-Man series hasn't aged well, and maybe it hasn't, but I'd put it ahead of Ultimate Spider-Man any day of the week.

Was Avi Arad in the toy business before he came to Marvel? Might explain why people have an issue with his involvement in Marvel toons from the 90's forward (X-Men, Spider-Man, et al). If you thought he was bad news, Jeph "Ear" Loeb is worse.

I don't see what is wrong with the Man of Action studio. Look at their work on Ben 10 & Generator Rex for Cartoon Network compared to what they've done for Ear Loeb at Marvel. Then tell me why you have a problem. These guys got the gig because they knew Loeb from working at Marvel Comics. Ear Loeb & Quesadilla are the big problem, and the backlash, I might add, has spread to Agents of SHIELD, if declining ratings are any indicator.....

http://www.toonzone.net/forums/marvel-animation-forum/310719-why-so-much-marvel-animation-just-bad.html#post4181945

The problem with MoA is the following:

-They make their main characters as whiny, pompous, arrogant jerks who think they can do it on their own and take credit. Also do some of the most boneheaded moves, example with Generator Rex by manipulating the robot Bobo to act like the real one and thinks he's a good friend till the robot go berserk where in the first place the robot was doing a good job and no one was bothered by him, except for Rex. Also when he invites people that hate his guts thinking he would make friends with them till realize they are a bunch of jerks. With Spider-Man i hate when he mentions "oh yeah, you forgot i'm a smart guy, uh?" always bragging on that till we see he's an idiot in an episode featuring Iron Man shows that he doesn't have clue on what IM was explaining to him. I would say more but those are one of the examples how bad they make the main characters.

-The comedy and lets face it, MoA is terrible when they try making jokes or try to make a funny which is bad executed and turns into something more juvenile and dumb prank by the characters or say a lame joke. I admit there's one episode of GR with the whole Bunny EVO episode was good but when tried it again with other episodes pretty much went down the drain on how stupid and corny they turned out.

-When it comes to fillers they don't seem to get a clue on what to do, in the original Ben 10 there where episodes with a very corny plot that makes you think "that's the best they can do?" also goes with Generator Rex with the prank episode and the stalker rock band episode that was just pointless and a waste of time and money where they could have spend it on filling more of the story but they didn't. The Infamous "Powerless" episode of EMH shows how bad their writing is when it comes to fillers also ignoring that Thor already appreciates and amazed of how mortals have shown courage and never give up even when all hope is lost and that episode shows Thor an hypocrite when he was turned into a mortal and whine about how mortals have weak bodies and can't do anything without his Hammer, this is one of the episodes that i hate how they written Thor that made me not like him, Not to mention that basing it on the movie......if i wanted to see that i go see the movie.

-When it comes to finish a season they don't seem to come out great, i would the first season finale of USM was not bad but in the 2nd season finally was very bland.

-Whatever you like it or not Ben 10 was the purpose to sell merchandise and it work perfectly for CN and thought that with Generator Rex would have the same success (even gave additional seasons when they where just starting to air the first episodes) wasn't that successful as they thought but with Ben 10 and USM selling too well, guys like Loeb and Disney don't care if the shows are garbage, if they sell toys that's good enough for them.

http://www.toonzone.net/forums/marvel-animation-forum/310719-why-so-much-marvel-animation-just-bad.html#post4181977

In re.: Spider-Man: He's always been written as being a wiseacre when he fights, a formula that's been in place for 50 years until the geniuses at Marvel decided to stick Doc Ock's brain in Spidey's body, making him almost totally unlikeable now. They'll change that when they feel like it (Spidey is normal in the newspaper strip, thankfully), which should've been yesterday.

Joe Kelly & Steven Seagle of Men of Action are veteran comics writers who should know better. Unfortunately, hanging around Ear Loeb only devalues them.

http://www.toonzone.net/forums/marvel-animation-forum/310719-why-so-much-marvel-animation-just-bad.html#post4181990

If you look the difference between Spectacular and Ultimate you will see a big wall of difference of how Spidey is a wisecrack superhero and the other telling lame jokes. I don't remember that Spider-Man talk to the audience or come up with "the Wheel of Excuse" or have and angel and devil spider-man around his shoulders what's the right thing to do or when he's nagging about getting a jet pack............it's more of a Deadpool thing then a Spider-Man thing. Which it's no surprise that MoA was involve with Deadpool in the comics but just like with Ben 10 they don't seem to differ a main character to another and have the same personality or act similar to their past characters.

Please even before teaming with Loeb, MoA already shown how terrible they are when it comes on making cartoons but sadly bringing big bucks to the networks, you can think of them as the TV shows version of Michael Bay.

http://www.toonzone.net/forums/marvel-animation-forum/310719-why-so-much-marvel-animation-just-bad.html#post4182098

That's an insult to Michael Bay. At least Bay has The Rock to fall back on. MOA doesn't even have something that good.

Well, okay, individually MOA has written some good comics. I Kill Giants (by Joe Kelly) is one of the best comic books in recent memory, actually. But together as MOA they have only produced mediocrity.

I do think that Loeb is more to blame/credit, however, considering how Henry Gilroy, Brandon Auman, Paul Dini, Eugene Son and various other writers have suddenly, magically, fallen in quality since Loeb took over and brought in Man of Action in. I think a serious part of the problem is that Loeb, Quesada, and MOA are acting as one giant writer's room and dictating to everyone, which results in a loss of vision for all of the cartoons. And yes, Dini is part of that writer's room too ostensibly, but even then he's just one voice and he could be getting drowned out by the others if they're like-minded. That's the problem with writer's rooms for animation, really.

http://www.toonzone.net/forums/marvel-animation-forum/310719-why-so-much-marvel-animation-just-bad.html#post4182115

The poor quality of the current crop of Marvel animation is is mainly the fault of Quesada and Loeb. Nuff said.

http://www.toonzone.net/forums/marvel-animation-forum/310719-why-so-much-marvel-animation-just-bad.html#post4182140

I often times think this as well. I actually prefer Marvel in totality over DC, their characters and whatnot not, but generally speaking, when it comes to animation, DC has them beat. As mentioned, the old X-Men and Spider-Man are the only ones that still hold up from the 90s these days. SSM & EMH could have had longer runs, and I think WatX could have ironed out it's problems had it gotten another season, at least reading where they planned to go with it.

http://www.toonzone.net/forums/marvel-animation-forum/310719-why-so-much-marvel-animation-just-bad.html#post4182143

Credit where it's due, Avi Arad was one of the reasons the superhero movie boom kicked off. He took a lot of the ideas from the shows he worked on and pitched them as movies. Which is why the Blade and Raimi Spider-Man movies used so much from SM-TAS.

I still quite like the first season of Hulk too, despite its constant guest stars.

http://www.toonzone.net/forums/marvel-animation-forum/310719-why-so-much-marvel-animation-just-bad.html#post4182178

Watching a lot of the Marvel cartoons I get the sense the people working on them weren't taking things seriously. Not tonally of course (I loathe the perception that superhero cartoons all need to be gritty and serious) but on a production level. Watching Avengers: United They Stand, I get the sense that nobody cared putting this show together. Everything from the animation to the voice acting, my god, the voice acting. The guy playing Hawkeye is doing a bad Christian Bale Bat-Voice (YEARS before Bale was even Batman!) the woman playing Scarlet Witch sounds like she's trying to do an impression of Natasha from Rocky and Bullwinkle, and so on. You seriously get the sense that they couldn't be bothered to hire any professionals.

http://www.toonzone.net/forums/marvel-animation-forum/310719-why-so-much-marvel-animation-just-bad.html#post4182204

The problem with Avengers UTS was a complete mess where they tried to compete with Batman Beyond (along with Spider-Man Unlimited) setting it into the future, that was their first boneheaded move. Have the 3 main Avengers out and have someone like Pym take over. the bad guys had different designs you couldn't tell who they where (Kang for example) and Ultron wasn't a real threat also making alterations to their origins and lets not forget the brilliant idea of having the Avengers where armors so they can power up, thought that was one of the stupidest ideas i ever seen, even as a kid i thought it was dumb.

Agreed that the voice actors the way they talked was stupid but it wasn't the voice actors fault but the ones behind the show telling them to do this type of voice so it can fit with the character, i mean most of those VA are from the 90's cartoon X-Men which btw they had intended to have X-Men in a future episode but since Season 2 was cancelled it didn't happen but it's good i mean how they will explain the future setting the Avengers had? Time Traveling it's just a lame excuse, especially when the X-men had done it alot.

Agreed with you Rory, action shows doesn't have to be gritty and serious it can combine with some comedy but only that comes natural, many doesn't get (MoA for example) that having comedy doesn't have to be forced where the character make dumb puns or act like they are 10 fighting for something (AA episode with the cookies)

http://www.toonzone.net/forums/marvel-animation-forum/310719-why-so-much-marvel-animation-just-bad-2.html

http://www.toonzone.net/forums/marvel-animation-forum/310719-why-so-much-marvel-animation-just-bad-2.html#post4182412

Agreed on the 90's shows. They do not hold up very well. X-Men has some cheesy voiceovers and much of the animation was produced by AKOM, which is/was infamous for terrible animation in the 90's. And Spider-Man? Not only was he not allowed to throw a punch and TMS' animation went down the toilet after season 1, but the writing got gradually worse and worse after season 1 as well. As in, the dialogue. You can only take "MAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRYYYYYYYY JAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANE!" so many times.

Part of the problem with the Young Avengers is that they can't just randomly pop in. They'd require setup and foreshadowing in order to be used correctly. I doubt they're going to go through all of that effort. And if they were, the perfect show to do that would be Ultimate Spider-Man but they're not setting them up there either.

I'm going to clarify my comment. It would not be insulting, in principle, if Ashley Johnson voiced Kate Bishop and her Hawkeye and Troy Baker's Hawkeye had a bit of father/daughter going on in order to invoke The Last of Us. What would be insulting is how such a relationship would be executed. It'd be a pure casting gag, devoid of any meaning and meant to be played for laughs with parodies of Joel and Ellie's exchanges, and admit it, you can easily see MOA going that route. I fail to see how any of that would go over well with viewers who have played The Last of Us and know the true meaning of the Joel/Ellie relationship.

Janet was great on EMH, she was a natural "audience viewpoint character" choice as she was enthusiastic but not infallible and she was shown to have human worries and concerns, she thought things were going to be a party and it soon became clear to her it was not. And at least EMH acknowledged there were other female characters in the Marvel Universe. There's only three female heroes in the entirety of this shared Marvel Universe: Black Widow, She-Hulk, and White Tiger. This is coupled with two female villains, Thundra and Titania, both of whom share a voice actress who voices a more prevalent role (Tara Strong voices Mary Jane in addition to Thundra, and Eliza Dushku portrayed Titania in addition to her regular She-Hulk role).

THAT IS PATHETIC. No other word describes the situation with Marvel female characters better.