Definition of a Hit Comic - The Last Post
Alan McKenzie
clarify.
This thread started when Andy Diggle posted that the sales of 2000 AD seem
to leveling off at 25K. The general consensus was that this wasn't too bad.
I posted that it *was* too bad, and began to list the various points where
the sales had dropped over the years and why I think that happened.
This was where, you'll recall, the Provisional Wing of the 2000 AD Newsgroup
waded in, attitudes akimbo, jostling for first place in the queue to slag
off the former sub editor/editor. That's okay. I've been sniped at by
experts.
In the melee, a very important point was missed. That point is, incumbent
editors not withstanding, that the writing is on the wall for comics and
2000 AD is no exception.
While everyone is scrambling to apportion blame, the comic buying audience
is dwindling, and has been for 30 - 40 years.
There was a time, as late as the early 80s, when IPC Fleetway would cancel a
comic on 250K. That's a quarter of a million, guys. Which wasn't good
enough. It happened. Tornado, the one with Dave Gibbons dressed as editor
"Big E".
The only reason comics have survived is a combination of switching to
printing methods that are more cost-effective at lower runs and whacking up
the cover-price way out of proportion to inflation.
Nobody noticed when I mentioned this in my first posts. The cover price of
2000 AD has risen way out of line with other goods over the years. 18p in
1983, 26p at Prog 500 (1986), 35p at Prog 600 (1988). That little run there
is already twice the rate of inflation. (100% in five years - it should be
100% in ten!)
From 1988 to 1998, 35p to £1.20 - 343%. A staggering three and a half times
the rate of inflation. The corporate thinking here is that only die hard
fans will pay that. So, when you have only die hard fans left, soak 'em.
In the real world, the sad fact is that any magazine loses readers at a
predictable rate. Usually, in professional publishing companies, there are
several processes that can help stave off this decay. Marketing is one.
Effective promotional ideas that bring the wholesalers, retailers and
customers behind your product can not only arrest dwindling sales but
reverse the rot. Publicity is another. This can take the form of a massive
advertising campaign, both in print and in broadcast mediums. This costs
money. A lot of it. Though you can get free publicity by engineering some
kind of headline-grabbing event.
But without constant tending from the support departments, there's not much
an editorial department can do to stave off falling sales.
The Comics business is faring worse than most areas of publishing. Sales in
America have "plummeted" since 1993. So have 2000AD's sales. If the sales of
2000AD had dropped in isolation, I'd have to put my hand up and say, "Yep,
it was me. I screwed up." But it's not just 2000AD. It's comics in the
English-speaking world in general.
And so we're back to identifying a cause. And I say there isn't one single
cause.
Looking around for One Thing to blame happens in companies when they're in
big trouble. It's one of the classic symptoms of corporate malaise. That's
what I saw going on here last week. A lot of anger. Misdirected. Like it or
not - admit it or not - the fear is that the sales *won't* recover.
And I agree that would be criminal.
But the fact remains that even to double the current sales of 2000AD would
require a massive injection of cash, to pay for effective marketing and
publicity strategies. Because if you're saying that it's taken five or so
years for editorial to half the sales of 2000AD from 50K to its present 25K
(years, notice, after my departure from the paper) then it's going to take
at least that long again to put them back to 50K on the strength of
editorial alone.
In the meantime, there are other demands on the time and money of the
present and future customer base. The Internet is going to become more
widespread, Playstation 2 is out this Autumn, next it'll be Internet on the
TV. Heck, Stan Lee has just poached a bunch of Disney animators to work on
his online comic at www.stanlee.com
2000 AD is in danger, not due to bad editorial but due to a management
failure to react to a changing marketplace, a complete absence of an
Internet strategy and reluctance to reinvest any of the product's by now
meagre profits back into the product itself.
So there's nothing to be done, right? Actually, there's a lot to be done.
Andy's already said that there is an official 2000 AD Web site in the works.
That's good, but it has be borne in mind that Web sites, like print
products, have to promoted and marketed just the same.
I've already offered to consult for the 2000 AD Web site. Amongst my other
clients are "real" companies like Ben Sherman and the Arcadia Group.
And a very effective Internet publicity campaign could be organised in this
very forum (am I starting to sound like Micky Rooney in the "Andy Hardy"
films?). Remember, it was the fans' letter-writing campaign in the late 60s
that made Paramount bring back Star Trek. My advice would be to start by
targeting current comic buyers who *aren't* reading 2000 AD, because they're
already open to the idea of stories in strip form. You'll have to think
about the "how" of that yourselves.
And finally, thanks guys. It's been an interesting and sobering experience.
I've saved as many of last week's postings as possible (though John Smith's
quite supportive posts were wiped off the board before I had the chance to
save them - John: any chance of e-mailing copies to me? Thanks!) so that
whenever I need a reality check, I can just re-read them. And to guys like
Gary Gray and others who e-mailed me privately, thanks and stay in touch.
Alan McKenzie
Sub-editor Feb 1987 - Feb 1994
Editor Feb 1994 - Nov 1994
[which means, Jim, I didn't commission myself to write RAM Raiders!]
Andrew Ness
You've raised some interesting points, Alan. I think the more 2000AD can do
in terms of promotion the better, whether on the web, the newsstand or even
TV. The most cited reason for the price hikes is increasing paper costs,
there weren't many mags selling at £3+ in the 80s, now there's tons of them.
(There are several national newspapers running at a loss)
While I can't disagree with anything you've said (always interesting to get
a look behind the scenes), there are more factors at work here.
The fall in comics sales in this country is actually less dramatic than in
the States, where eight years ago, top titles were selling in the millions
(7.5 million for X-Men 1 being the record, I believe) and now come in at
around 100k. I think the move to direct sales for imported titles has hit
the casual comic reader hard. Comic shops tend to be odd places for
browsers, some have 'no kids' on the door!
When there were ten or twenty US comics on the shelf alongside several IPC
titles as well as the never ending DC Thompson range, buying comics was
easier, and more people were likely to get into the hobby. Consequently,
they were more likely to give 2000AD a try, and thus get hooked. Comics then
'grew up' promising more intelligent adult material. Which didn't really
materialise. Watchmen and Dark Knight were both great comics, but they were
still about bloody superheroes. And what followed was a lot of pale
reproductions, still with superheroes.
The kids were no longer going to get into comics unless they were introduced
to them by someone or took the bold step of going into a comic shop and
picking up one of the plethora of dross in there, and by some chance,
finding it accessible and entertaining.
Adults, unless they had been fans for years, were even less likely to get
interested.
Now that phenomena like Buffy and Pokemon are drawing people into comic
shops, there might be a change, but Forbidden Planet seems to be downsizing
the comics side of its business, and there's still the accessibility
problem.
Now Marvel are relaunching Spider Man from the beginning, perhaps this could
change.
I don't think a fully black and white 2000AD has the potential to sell any
more than a full-colour one (unless Henry Flint draws the whole thing!)
Maybe some tie-in to Playstation games could come off (remember Computer
Warrior in Eagle? There was always a competition to win the game that Bobby
was stuck in, and discover that the imagination of the scriptwriter and
artist was far superior to the technical limitations of the platform, but
now that may not be as significant.) certainly a Lara Croft strip would do
well.
Andy has indicated that he is pressing for a web-site, let's all hope
something comes of it.
--
Nessy
http://www.nite-flite.co.uk
2500NiteFli...@onelist.com
(To reply switch 'junk' to 'Nessy')
I've reposted my original reply, since it seems Alan didn't see it first
time out. Sorry if that's pissed anyone off.
As for other things, Star Trek didn't come back until the late 80's, so I'm
not sure what effect all those letters in the late 60's had, certainly the
concept hasn't worked for Dr Who.
The Gronk
Andrew Ness <ju...@nite-flite.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Z%r55.2081$NE5....@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
Ahem.... First letter writing campaign secured the third series of Star
Trek: TOS (such an appropriate acronym) the next one secured the animated
series. Then in the seventies there was Star Trek phase II which mutated
into the long running film series. The first film came out in I think 1979.
Also all because of letters. And it was a letter writing campaign that
caused the prototype space shuttle to be named "enterprise". Oh and Dr
Who..... Killed by Bonnie Langford.... promote fan site:
www.geocities.com/morbelle/
The Gronk - TrekkIE and proud
The Law
> In the melee, a very important point was missed. That point is, incumbent
> editors not withstanding, that the writing is on the wall for comics and
> 2000 AD is no exception.
>
> While everyone is scrambling to apportion blame, the comic buying audience
> is dwindling, and has been for 30 - 40 years.
This I completely agree with. I work in the music industry where exactly the
same thing is happening. Like in the comics industry everybody is
apportioning blame and nobody seems to be able to find the cause. The cause
is simple - the marketplace has changed and continues to change at an
alarming rate. There are a lot of bigger, better and brighter things for
people to spend their money on and, unfortunately, any consumable that
doesn't change with it is going to fade and die - it's called the
marketplace and its fickle!
> The only reason comics have survived is a combination of switching to
> printing methods that are more cost-effective at lower runs and whacking
up
> the cover-price way out of proportion to inflation.
Again, its a pattern that's repeated everywhere in the *leisure* industry .
In 1980, a standard 7" single retailed at 75p. Now we sell em at between
1.99 and 3.99 depending on the label, the record store and the marketing
deal involved - it's corporate madness because the average *life* of a
single is about 2 weeks: that's the week before release and the week after -
it's all down-hill from there and then we have to pay a company to destroy
them or pay a company to store them - either way it costs *us* money! I dare
say it's the same for comics because, once that initial weeks sales have
happened who wants to buy an out of date magazine?
<SNIP>
>there are several processes that can help stave off this decay.
>
Again I agree and it's not only the comics industry who are trying them. As
an example, in the music industry we have the *deal* where a store is
offered 9 free singles if they actually buy 3. This is one hell of a way to
get sales of a product to improve but costs a lot in the revenue required,
to create the *actual* sales of a single you need to manufacture 4 times the
amount required knowing it will never sell and will ultimately be returned
and destroyed. In this way the sales of a single rocket in disproportion to
the amount that are actually sold - how many times do we see the new number
one dropping to number ten in the charts after one week?
The point I'm making (at the risk of raising the whole issue again) is that
the comics industry is not alone. The music industry only makes money on
albums not on singles and these are slowly dwindling with the introduction
of MP3 and the net; the books industry is going through a similar crisis
with mass price wars, mergers and cut price sales. Basically, the companies
who survive in this changing market place are the companies who believe in
their product enough to pay for its success or who change their strategies
to fit the new marketplace. Comics are no exception, younger readers only
want to play games on their console or surf the net, they can't be arsed to
go out and *buy* a comic unless it's so good it *has* to be bought or
because it's at the very front of their minds. In the music industry we're
lucky because we have a medium called *radio* that takes our product and
markets it to the marketplace, in the comics industry there's no such luxury
so other avenues have to be adopted. My only hope is that the people in the
suits know how to change and adapt the product to fit the marketplace of
today without losing sight of why the product was launched in the first
place
In the words of McGruder herself : "This is a changing age. We must change
with it. A reed that won't bend in the wind - will always break!"
Jon P
The Law
> Now that phenomena like Buffy and Pokemon are drawing people into comic
> shops, there might be a change, but Forbidden Planet seems to be
downsizing
> the comics side of its business, and there's still the accessibility
> problem.
This is an interesting point that I'd like anyone out there to comment on if
they could - Back in the early eighties when Forbidden Planet was that
wonderful book/comic shop in a terraced house in London, you could *always*
find 2000AD back issues and generally just about anything you wanted comix
wise. These days your lucky if you hunt through the plastic bins and find
any non-US standard DC/Marvel junk that everyone's got at least two of (at
least in my local FP anyhow.) Does anyone know why FP has had this dramatic
marketing turnaround?
For me FP was always one of the few comic shops that seemed to market and
push comics - 2000AD especially. Is there any chance that this might change
and that this SF bookstore, with branches in far more places than I ever
thought it would all those many years ago, might help market 2000AD in its
hour of need? It seems to me that FP has become what it is almost *because*
of the British comics industry (I remember queuing for hours to get my Judge
Death poster signed by the great mister Bolland once a long time ago) that
they should be downsizing comics now smacks a bit like "Cutting off the hand
that made you great!"
Jon P
Simon Fraser
wrote:
I'm agreeing with pretty much everything that you are saying here..
>The point I'm making (at the risk of raising the whole issue again) is that
>the comics industry is not alone. The music industry only makes money on
>albums not on singles <snip>
Funnily enough this is how the comics industry works in other
countries, even the US. The costs of originating material are steep,
but reprinting it into a collected 'Trade Paperback' is very cheap and
these things generate a lot of profit for the company. Some titles
only make money on their reprint volumes, the monthly title actually
makes a loss. Now bear in mind that this is reprint of monthly comics
for the most part, where you can get around 26 pages of story for your
money. In the UK with 2000AD you get almost the same number of pages
per month, 24 on a 6 pages a week strip, but they are spread out in a
very awkward and cumbersome format, the weekly anthology. So can
someone explain to me why the culture of reprint albums has never been
promoted seriously in Britain? Any marketing directed to the books
would also benefit the weekly anthology and the 2000AD brand would be
seen to be something substantial. Surely a large company with a strong
very tightly focussed brand, should think about developing that brand
and expanding it?
I'm not saying that this is going to be the salvation of the british
comics industry, but part of generating interest in a product is
giving the prospective audience a nice fat hook to grab onto and the
thrill of following a good story that they know the ins and outs of.
Dammit, I like SPINES on my reading material, comics are a pain in the
arse to store!
Anyway
Simon F.
The Semi-Official Nikolai Dante Website
http://www.simonfraser.net
frazer irving
rattled on about on 25/6/00 11:42 pm:
> Dammit, I like SPINES on my reading material,
> Simon F.
Yah. Graphic novel/albums...only way I can get others to read 'em, and I
personally prefer it, especially when yer talking about 65 issues of
preacher, or those gruddamn Sandman things...
Hey, GRUDDAMN isn't in my spellchecker. Must alter this, along with FUNT and
SNECK.
Abnett and Wagner I thank you....
F
Simon Gurr
In the music industry we're
> lucky because we have a medium called *radio* that takes our
product and
> markets it to the marketplace, in the comics industry there's no
such luxury
> so other avenues have to be adopted.
Absolutely! I think the internet can be to comics what the radio is to
the music biz. A more or less free medium whereby
listeners/readers can experience samples of a product before
buying it. Comic publishers could tease forthcoming graphic
novels, or monthlies or even weeklies with pages posted on their
own site or on a comics version of Ain't it Cool News (if there was
one).
If, as Andy Diggle suggested recently, a 2000 web site is
happening by the end of the year, it could make a huge difference
to the awareness and marketing of the comic.
Has anyone on the ng read Reinventing Comics? McCloud makes
some interesting points about comics and technology (esp. the
Web), in particular the McGruder sentiment just raised.
Now stop all the interesting postings. I'm on deadline here!
Simon
--
In the words of Sue Richards herself : "Reed! That Ben will
always break wind!"
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Andrew Ness
>I'm
>> not sure what effect all those letters in the late 60's had, certainly
the
>> concept hasn't worked for Dr Who.
>>
>>
>Ahem.... First letter writing campaign secured the third series of Star
>Trek: TOS (such an appropriate acronym) the next one secured the animated
>series. Then in the seventies there was Star Trek phase II which mutated
>into the long running film series. The first film came out in I think 1979.
>Also all because of letters. And it was a letter writing campaign that
>caused the prototype space shuttle to be named "enterprise". Oh and Dr
>Who..... Killed by Bonnie Langford.... promote fan site:
>www.geocities.com/morbelle/
>
>The Gronk - TrekkIE and proud
>
Right. Thanks. Learn something every day don't you? (Were they happy they
bothered with the 'animated' series?)
Bonnie Langford didn't kill Dr Who, but she may have had a few fingerprints
on the smoking gun found by the festering corpse. (That's by as in beside,
not... oh you realised that.)
Nessy
frazer irving
rattled on about on 26/6/00 1:27 am:
> Has anyone on the ng read Reinventing Comics? McCloud makes
> some interesting points about comics and technology (esp. the
> Web), in particular the McGruder sentiment just raised.
>
Hmm. Went from the link on your site (where's the pix, eh ...tap tap tap...)
to Mcloud's site and then to amazon and they reckoned it hadn't been
published yet.
But I'm SURE I saw one in GOSH the other day....
> Now stop all the interesting postings. I'm on deadline here!
>
It's bad isn't it?
> Simon
> --
> In the words of Sue Richards herself : "Reed! That Ben will
> always break wind!"
Back onto the "FF rules/eat my ass" thread here....
F
>
>
>
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
--
frazer alex irving
http://www.irvingfrazer.freeserve.co.uk
T Det
> but reprinting it into a collected 'Trade Paperback' is very cheap and
> these things generate a lot of profit for the company. Some titles
> only make money on their reprint volumes, the monthly title actually
> makes a loss.
The best example of this is Cerebus. At one point it had sales of
100,000 of a sort-of-monthly black and white indie. Following a drop in
sales and distribution, and sacking of an embezzeling staff member Dave
Sim had a major rethink in the nature of comics. Now its main revenue is
from sales TPBs. Inch thick reprints in black and white on paper stock
barely better than newsprint.
> someone explain to me why the culture of reprint albums has never been
> promoted seriously in Britain? Any marketing directed to the books
> would also benefit the weekly anthology and the 2000AD brand would be
> seen to be something substantial. Surely a large company with a strong
> very tightly focussed brand, should think about developing that brand
> and expanding it?
Something I'm all in favour of and have been as vocal about as possible
in this NG. 2thou has some great finished runs that would work far
better in TPB than it did in the comic... Imagine the press release...
HE'S BACK! BIG DAVE, REPRINTED ALL IN ONE VOLUME!! UNEXPURGATED!
CONTROVERSIAL! POLITICALLY INCORRECT! SATIRICAL! FROM THE CREATOR OF DC
COMICS' THE INVISIBLES, WRITER OF JLA AND DOOM PATROL, GRANT MORRISON!!
STARRING BIG DAVE, SADDAM HUSSEIN, THAT DUMPY CREDIT-CARD ABUSING GINGER
FROM THE ROYALS AND PRINCESS DI!
US comics size, half inch thick on not brilliant paper stock,
distributed all over the US, UK and Europe (after translation, of
course) with new covers.
And thats just one story.
> Dammit, I like SPINES on my reading material, comics are a pain in the
> arse to store!
And to travel with, too.
Tim
T Det
> CONTROVERSIAL! POLITICALLY INCORRECT! SATIRICAL! FROM THE CREATOR OF DC
> COMICS' THE INVISIBLES, WRITER OF JLA AND DOOM PATROL, GRANT MORRISON!!
> STARRING BIG DAVE, SADDAM HUSSEIN, THAT DUMPY CREDIT-CARD ABUSING GINGER
> FROM THE ROYALS AND PRINCESS DI!
Put a pound off voucher in the papers and sales will be astronomical...
"Bring this advert with you to your local comic shop and get a pound off
of the reprinted adventures of Big Dave!"
Get some people back into comic shops, they'll get back into comics. (Or
at least barbie-dolls for testosterone-challenged men... sorry. Can't
stand comics-based toys...) get them back into comics and they'll get
back to 2thou...
Also, it'll make a nice big 'footprint' on the shelves at Borders,
Waterstones and other 'real' bookshops...
Especially when the entire Blackhawk reprint pops up next to it... and
Mean Arena... and...
Followed by the reprint CD-ROMs via mail-order and the website, 25
issues a CD. And the CD-ROM specials... Bolland! O'Neill! Moore!
Gibbons! featuring only those creators...
You see, its not about what's in the comic now, its about what has been
in the comic. With over 1/3 of the West's populations being over 65,
nostalgia is big business! With over 20 years of material, only a fool
would ignore this valuable source of revenue.
Then we can see: Matt Groening covers, Frank Miller Dredds, Moebius one-offs...
Tim. Who should be working in marketing but can't stand the smell of his
soul burning...
Phil Nixon
The Law <the...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:mrv55.47$wB1....@news3.cableinet.net...
> This is an interesting point that I'd like anyone out there to comment on
if
> they could - Back in the early eighties when Forbidden Planet was that
> wonderful book/comic shop in a terraced house in London, you could
*always*
> find 2000AD back issues and generally just about anything you wanted comix
> wise. These days your lucky if you hunt through the plastic bins and find
> any non-US standard DC/Marvel junk that everyone's got at least two of (at
> least in my local FP anyhow.) Does anyone know why FP has had this
dramatic
> marketing turnaround?
I think that this has been a problem for some time and has become something
of a problem since I came to New Zealand. I'm lucky in that I have a comic
shop just down the road (ok 20 miles down the road over a river and through
a windy gorge that gets closed a lot through the winter). The owner of the
shop is a manic anglophile. He watches all the football he can, has read
2000AD since Prog 1 and even stocked The Class of '79. But over the few
years I've been here I've seen his shop be slowly overtaken by action
figures, trading cards and videos. And as for back issues... If you're
looking for 2000AD you won't find much pree 1000.
I realise NZ maybe a rather extreme example but there does seem to be a
trend.
Phil
si_spurrier
I dunno. Si was saying recently the Dante GN had a
dissapointing turnaround - I just assumed it was because the
people who would be interested in buying the thing have already
read it all in 2000AD. The problem is that an awful lot of the
stories in tooth aren't the kind of thing that leaps off a shelf
in GN format and screams "Buy ME!".
I dunno..
Humanity: A nice place to visit, but you wouldn't want to live there.
-Spurious.
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com
frazer irving
sjsNO...@wellington-college.berks.sch.uk.invalid rattled on about on
26/6/00 11:06 am:
> *Would* people buy Reprints or GNs?......
>
> I dunno. Si was saying recently the Dante GN had a
> dissapointing turnaround - I just assumed it was because the
> people who would be interested in buying the thing have already
> read it all in 2000AD. The problem is that an awful lot of the
> stories in tooth aren't the kind of thing that leaps off a shelf
> in GN format and screams "Buy ME!".
>
> I dunno..
Nyet. I wanted to buy it for AGES but only now can I afford it. The prob I
reckon with the books is once again poor exposure. No-one would go for the
collections unless they had an inkling as to what it was all about, but I've
never seen that for these books. And also many book stores don't carry tooth
books as they won't fit on those spinny carousels...
F
>
> Humanity: A nice place to visit, but you wouldn't want to live there.
>
> -Spurious.
>
> Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
> Up to 100 minutes free!
> http://www.keen.com
>
--
yer mudda's got an eye wid a fish in it....
Adrian Bamforth
"Phil Nixon" <Phil....@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message
news:nuE55.3751$lE26.2...@news.xtra.co.nz...
>
> I think that this has been a problem for some time and has become
something
> of a problem since I came to New Zealand. I'm lucky in that I have a comic
> shop just down the road (ok 20 miles down the road over a river and
through
> a windy gorge that gets closed a lot through the winter).
"What's that you say Skip? There's a desparate 2000AD shortage down the
creek in Wallabaloo?"
"And what's that you say - if we don't get some progs down their soon
they're gonna have to close the comic shop down?"
ADE
The Gronk
si_spurrier <sjsNO...@wellington-college.berks.sch.uk.invalid> wrote in
message news:0b45d2dc...@usw-ex0101-007.remarq.com...
> *Would* people buy Reprints or GNs?......
>
> I dunno. Si was saying recently the Dante GN had a
> dissapointing turnaround - I just assumed it was because the
> people who would be interested in buying the thing have already
> read it all in 2000AD. The problem is that an awful lot of the
> stories in tooth aren't the kind of thing that leaps off a shelf
> in GN format and screams "Buy ME!".
>
> I dunno..
>
>
> -Spurious.
>
> Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
> Up to 100 minutes free!
> http://www.keen.com
>
I think the problem with Graphic Novels is that they cover recent stories.
It should have a policy like Best of 2000AD used to have of not re-printing
something until at least 5 years had gone by. I think that with the current
relatively low rate of sales for 2000AD most people who would be the maket
for graphic novels have probably already got them, in the original paper
back form. And i bet they'd have tonnes of sales if they could come to an
agreement about Zenith.
The Gronk Phase II
The Gronk
> CONTROVERSIAL! POLITICALLY INCORRECT! SATIRICAL! FROM THE CREATOR OF DC
> COMICS' THE INVISIBLES, WRITER OF JLA AND DOOM PATROL, GRANT MORRISON!!
> STARRING BIG DAVE, SADDAM HUSSEIN, THAT DUMPY CREDIT-CARD ABUSING GINGER
> FROM THE ROYALS AND PRINCESS DI!
<lts snipped>
Sure to please 'ol adam and Francine. You copywrite abusing kids you...
The Gronk
Grant Goggans
wrote:
>HE'S BACK! BIG DAVE, REPRINTED ALL IN ONE VOLUME!! UNEXPURGATED!
>CONTROVERSIAL! POLITICALLY INCORRECT! SATIRICAL! FROM THE CREATOR OF DC
>COMICS' THE INVISIBLES, WRITER OF JLA AND DOOM PATROL, GRANT MORRISON!!
>STARRING BIG DAVE, SADDAM HUSSEIN, THAT DUMPY CREDIT-CARD ABUSING GINGER
>FROM THE ROYALS AND PRINCESS DI!
I've been saying that I've got ten times the marketing savvy as anyone
at Fleetway.
So does Tim. Pretty damn good copy, that. Just remember: only three
descriptive adjectives in a row. You can drop the "satirical".
It's a shame Garth Ennis created so little, but Troubled Souls and For
a Few Troubles More could be reissued in one volume to capitalize on
his name, along with Sleeze 'n' Ryder. And after all of Strontium Dog
was issued in about 8 collections of 40 episodes each, you could do
all of Ennis's SD stories with Feral and the Gronk in one collection.
--
happily ever after,
Grant
Andrew Ness
>So does Tim. Pretty damn good copy, that. Just remember: only three
>descriptive adjectives in a row. You can drop the "satirical".
>
Yes, apart from anything else, it's innaccurate. Satire is informed and
makes intelligent commentary. Big Dave simply took the piss out of something
very few of its readers would have little but contempt for in any case.
(No, the 11 O'Clock Show isn't satire either.)
Not saying it wasn't funny (did nothing for me, though) but it wasn't
satire.
Nessy
Adrian Bamforth
Er, can satire not also be preaching to the converted? Steve Bell preaches
to Guardian readers, Private Eye preaches to people who are already cynical
about politicians.
I agree that The 11 Oclock Show is not satire, more a collection of lazy
vulgarisms. But Big Dave? Well, did Big Dave not clearly satirise tabloid
patriotism and the British, no, sorry guys, English football-chanting,
Sun-reading yob?
ADE
Grant Goggans
<u...@fegmania.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>I agree that The 11 Oclock Show is not satire, more a collection of lazy
>vulgarisms. But Big Dave? Well, did Big Dave not clearly satirise tabloid
>patriotism and the British, no, sorry guys, English football-chanting,
>Sun-reading yob?
Always wondered about the etymology of "yob" myself...
Simon Gurr
gmsl...@hhhoootttmmmaaaiiilll.com wrote on 6/27/00 2:32 PM:
>
> Always wondered about the etymology of "yob" myself...
Back slang for "boy" apparently. (OED)
Simon
--
Simon Gurr M.A.
http://www.simongurr.com
Web animation comics illustration
frazer irving
si...@bus17.plus.com rattled on about on 27/6/00 3:46 pm:
> in article 3958acdf....@news.mindspring.com, Grant Goggans at
> gmsl...@hhhoootttmmmaaaiiilll.com wrote on 6/27/00 2:32 PM:
>>
>> Always wondered about the etymology of "yob" myself...
>
> Back slang for "boy" apparently. (OED)
>
OED? Whassis then?
F
> Simon
Andrew Ness
>
>Er, can satire not also be preaching to the converted? Steve Bell preaches
>to Guardian readers, Private Eye preaches to people who are already cynical
>about politicians.
>
>vulgarisms. But Big Dave? Well, did Big Dave not clearly satirise tabloid
>patriotism and the British, no, sorry guys, English football-chanting,
>Sun-reading yob?
>
No, it took the piss. Lampoonery is not the same as satire.
If Private Eye simply took the piss out of the external and obvious
foolishness of politicians, as a mass group (a la 11Oclockshow) without
supplying any kind of exposition it would not be satire either. The satirist
is first and foremost knowledgeable of the subject, and able to reveal
something about that subject, usually, but not exclusively, through humour
and exaggeration. Big Dave revealed nothing, and presented no argument, it
simply revelled in the obvious crassness of its subject matter. What was the
point? Tabloid rascism, jingoism and football hooligans are a bad thing? No
shit, and..? Well, nothing, just 'oh look how funny this is.' There's
nothing wrong with that in itself, but it isn't satire.
A friend of mine just wrote 4000 words on the difference between satire and
'topical comedy'. I would put Big Dave firmly in the second category.
Nessy
si_spurrier
without an OED in my pocket. Which, by the way Fraze, I assume
stands for 'Oxford English Dictionary'. Calculated guess,
there. Probably actually stands for 'Obnoxious edible
dentures', or something *really* rational.
Simon Gurr
at fir...@irvingfrazer.freeserve.co.uk wrote on 6/28/00 8:55 AM:
> OED? Whassis then?
> F
Aha! Now it's *my* turn to confuse everyone with acronyms. Oxford English
Dictionary, (which, sadly enough, sits next to my computerin case an
etymology question arises)
CMoS
si_spurrier wrote:
>
> Remind me never to go up against Mr Ness in heated debate
> without an OED in my pocket.
All hail the thes-a-sarus king of the orac-ssic era.
> stands for 'Oxford English Dictionary'.
Up to verison 2 now !
--
Regards,
CMoS
pauljholden
> > stands for 'Oxford English Dictionary'.
>
> Up to verison 2 now !
>
released in 2002.
One Eyed Dinosaur: Did-ya-think-he-saw-us
> --
> Regards,
> CMoS
si_spurrier
on purpose or by sweeeet chance. Be honest.
And, whilst we're on appalling 'sight' gags:
Q. What d'you call a blind reindeer.
A. No idea (say it out loud - southern accent, all you
multicultural tryhards)
Q. What d'you call a blind reindeer with no legs.
A. Still no idea.
And one for good luck (my personal favourite):
Q. How d'you get a clown off a swing?
A. Hit him in the face with an axe.
pauljholden
"si_spurrier" <sjsNO...@wellington-college.berks.sch.uk.invalid> wrote in
message news:1cca34b8...@usw-ex0101-007.remarq.com...
> PJ - did the 'One Eyed Dinosaur' quip fit into the OED anacronym
> on purpose or by sweeeet chance. Be honest.
>
Didn't even notice it... could be I'm subconsciously very clever (and
consciously very stupid)
-pj
The Law
> Q. How d'you get a clown off a swing?
> A. Hit him in the face with an axe.
>
Would that be The Clown?
If so, rather you than me mate.
JonP
si_spurrier
Q: How do you stop a mouse running across the kitchen floor at
1.pm on a lazy Sunday afternoon?
A: Stamp on it.
pauljholden
Shut up or I'll nail your other foot down.
(it had a kitchen floor in it)
- pj
"si_spurrier" <sjsNO...@wellington-college.berks.sch.uk.invalid> wrote in
message news:02d8cad8...@usw-ex0101-007.remarq.com...
T Det
> dentures', or something *really* rational.
Also known as the Ockey Dickey. Or, if in your pocket- a Pockey Ockey Dickey.
Bugger Pokemon... Pockeyockeydickeymon...
Tim.
The Gronk
It's becomming less and less accurate as time goes on isn't it?
The Gronk
Andrew Ness
<17e4a006...@usw-ex0101-007.remarq.com>...
>Remind me never to go up against Mr Ness in heated debate
>there. Probably actually stands for 'Obnoxious edible
>dentures', or something *really* rational.
>
Rarely use the OED myself, but you wanna go up against me, you better get
whatever you can...
I assume this is about the 'satire' thing. Trust me, I'd know a lot less
about this if I hadn't had a huge module on it last term. (sounds
painful...)
Nessy
I might know everything, I don't really know...
Nigel Poll
<paulj...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>Daddy why do I have to keep walking in a circle in the kitchen?
>
>Shut up or I'll nail your other foot down.
>
Mummy, I hate Daddy's guts!
Eat what you're given.
Mummy, I don't want to go to America!
Don't talk - keep swimming.
And MY favourite:
Mummy, what's a sex maniac?
Shut up and help me pull Grandma off the doorknob.
Nigel (the sicker, the better)
ShuggyBarr
Old One Eye, surely
ShuggyBarr
> A. No idea (say it out loud - southern accent, all you
>multicultural tryhards)
>
> Q. What d'you call a blind reindeer with no legs.
> A. Still no idea.
Q. What d'you call a blind reindeer with no legs and no dick.
A. Still no fuckin' idea.
Sorry - just had to share
William Logan
A. A cloud.
Q. What do you call a spider with no legs?
A. A Currant.
Andy Diggle
>clarify.
<snip>
You make a lot of excellent points. Nobody's claiming that the editors alone
were responsible for the catastrophic loss in sales during your tenure on 2000
AD.
Nevertheless.
I stopped reading in the early 90s because the comic was crap. I was in the pub
last night with several creators who said the same thing.
Perhaps you'd like to quell your critics and set the record straight with some
rumour-control:
1) Which stories did you write for 2000 AD while working in an editorial
capacity for the comic?
2) What pseudonyms did you use?
3) Were management/accounts aware that you were doing this?
4) Did you ever re-write other people's scripts and then invoice for a
freelance writer's fee?
5) Did you invoice via an art agency, so as to hide this from management and
accounts?
Just asking.
Andy
Clam
andyd...@aol.com says...
Andy...mail Alan direct...we're all dying to know the answers...just to
clarify things... ;-)
Have Fun.
MIKED