Definition of a hit comic?
LDYS
sales worldwide.
2000AD has sales of, what, 25,000 in the UK alone?
So why is 2000AD perceived as being on its last legs, while Preacher
regarded as a top seller?
I suppose this is because 2000AD's publishers view the comic in relation
to other newstand mags, while Preacher's publishers view their baby in
relation to other comics in the Direct Market. But nevertheless, this is
real achievement.
James
frazer irving
> From: ld...@cix.co.uk (LDYS)
> Organization: CIX - Compulink Information eXchange
> Reply-To: ld...@cix.co.uk
> Newsgroups: alt.comics.2000ad
> Date: 16 Jun 2000 19:02:39 GMT
> Subject: Definition of a hit comic?
Aye. Seconded. And when you bear in mind that Preacher sells 40,000
(allegedly) a month and tooth sells approximately 25,000 a WEEK it kinda
makes it even better. But we are cross-comparing our markets I fear, and I'm
sure some thrill-sucker out there is warming up his/her blowtorch to flame
us for this. Incidentally I have read the entire Preacher epic in one
weekend and I am most impressed. Shame it ends soon. Right; back on topic
now ....
F
>
> James
si_spurrier
don't quote me on that) of Preacher readers do so through the
GNs. Tooth has a loyal core of about 22,000 (IIRC) buying it up
week after week - Preacher just waits for the next seven-part
graphic novel and flogs 'em off at twice the original price.
Humanity: A nice place to visit, but you wouldn't want to live there.
-Spurious.
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com
Andy Diggle
>sales worldwide.
>
>2000AD has sales of, what, 25,000 in the UK alone?
>
>So why is 2000AD perceived as being on its last legs, while Preacher
>regarded as a top seller?
Who says Tooth's on its last legs? I'll tear 'em limb from limb! I'll beat
'em, I'll...
Anyway.
Tooth sells roughly 25,000 per week including overseas and
subscriptions.Multiply that by four and we're selling 100,000 per month . That
would put us in the top 5 titles for the American direct sales market.
Okay, so it's not really a fair comparision, I know, but it makes you think...
Andy
Gary Gray
100,000 but our wee title in little old UK manages 25,000 its something to
be proud of really.
Gary Gray
Andy Diggle <andyd...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000617082017...@ng-fp1.aol.com...
Andrew Ness
<20000617082017...@ng-fp1.aol.com>...
>>I read in Comics International this month that Preacher brings home 40,000
>>sales worldwide.
>>
>>2000AD has sales of, what, 25,000 in the UK alone?
>>
>>So why is 2000AD perceived as being on its last legs, while Preacher
>>regarded as a top seller?
>
>Who says Tooth's on its last legs? I'll tear 'em limb from limb! I'll beat
>'em, I'll...
>
>Anyway.
>
>Tooth sells roughly 25,000 per week including overseas and
>subscriptions.Multiply that by four and we're selling 100,000 per month .
That
>would put us in the top 5 titles for the American direct sales market.
>
>Okay, so it's not really a fair comparision, I know, but it makes you
think...
>
>Andy
But, as David Bishop pointed out last time this was raised, the population
of America is about four times that of the UK anyway. So in terms of sales
per capita, 2000AD is as popular here as the top five US titles are there.
--
Nessy
http://www.nite-flite.co.uk
2500NiteFli...@onelist.com
(To reply switch 'junk' to 'Nessy')
Alan McKenzie
thread. But it is too bad, really.
When I first started on 200AD, in 1987, it was at the tail end of the
letterpress days. Prog 512, something like that. It was selling about 98,000
per week.
Pause. Think about that number. Thirteen years ago only.
When I left, it was selling about 55,000.
Now ... according to Andy, 25K.
It's a real tragedy, but I don't think there's anything that could have been
done, at least editorially, to stop the decline.
I can probably say some stuff that Andy can't. He still works there :-)
I think some bad business decisions were made along the way. Going litho was
good. Letterpress printing at 98,000 was probably uneconomical. Putting a
glossy cover on was probably necessary. But on the minus side were the price
rises that incurred. Upping the colour to colour throughout, with its
attendent price hike was probably bad. That was a management decision that
Richard (Burton) and I both thought unnecessary. All through my tenure I was
always opposed to price rises. Price rises mean lost readers. And you never
get them back. Period.
In 1987 2000 was, what, 28p? Conventional wisdom says that the price of
stuff doubles every ten years with inflation. So to maintain its price due
to inflation only (which all most customers care about) 2000AD would need to
be about 65p today.
Then in my latter days, Prog 900-ish, maybe earlier, a management decision
was taken to move from IPC distribution to Comag. This was announced, fait
accompli, at a management meeting. Richard and I were flabberghasted. We'd
both worked at Marvel UK. Who were distributed by Comag. Comag had been a
disaster for Marvel. Yet no one at Fleetway thought to ask opinions of any
of the staff. It never occurred to them, in their arrogance, that any of
their editors might have had some knowledge of their new business partners.
Richard and I both smelt disaster in the wind. Three months later, were were
reviewing the sales figures. In the 3 or 4 weeks around the Comag takeover,
the sales of 2000 AD "plummeted" (the Marketed Managers actual word) from
about 85K to 65K. 20,000 wiped off the sales almost overnight.
I won't bore you with the mechanical difference between IPC and Comag which
led to this nosedive. But whichever way you cut it, it's clear that Comag
was a disaster for 2000AD just as they had been for Marvel UK.
But you need to factor in the sad truth that other things compete for the
attention of the 14-15 year old male core audience for 2000. Notably
Playstations and the Internet.
For this reason, I believe that 2000AD should have taken its strong branding
onto the Web a couple of years ago. It's almost too late now. But it's
likely that Egmont management can't figure out how to make money out of a
Web 2000AD. If so, they're missing the point. The principle of "shelf space"
applies on the Web just the way it does in a newsagent.
An aside: One of the great IPC/Fleetway editors Sid Bicknell explained to me
one day - You have to take up space on the newsagents shelves. If you
publish 40 comics, like Fleetway did in the old days, these support each
other. You have cross-over advertising, with your house ads, not just in the
other comics but in the mags as well. But the main thing is you take up
shelf space. This means that for every mag you get in a newsagent, it means
that Marvel UK or DC Thompson, or Titan or whoever, doesn't get one. Take up
enough space and you shut out other mags. Sid reckoned that accountants
never realised that. They'd cancel a mag when it hit breakeven, but never
factored in the other benefits of running a break-even paper.
Okay - the same principal applies in the Web. You don't necessarily have to
make money out of a Web site. But you should have one, especially for
2000AD. Your core audience are constantly trawling the Web looking for babes
and psychos with guns (joke! joke!). You need to have a heavy Web presence,
reinforcing your branding. Maybe you'll make money further down the line,
and that'd be nice. But that's not the point at this stage. The point is
establishing your "shelf space" on the Web so that in the long run, when it
is possible to make a healthy profit, you won't have been shut out by the
likes of Com.X
I've offered a couple of times to consult for Fleetway, out of nostalgia and
a genuine love for the product, to help them come up with a Web strategy,
but answer came there none. Ideally, they should try to do a deal with my
present employers, BBC Worldwide, who have the clout to make things happen
on the Web.
Food for thought? I thinks so, don't you?
Alan.
T Det
> Okay - the same principal applies in the Web. You don't necessarily have to
> make money out of a Web site. But you should have one, especially for
> 2000AD. Your core audience are constantly trawling the Web looking for babes
> and psychos with guns (joke! joke!). You need to have a heavy Web presence,
> reinforcing your branding. Maybe you'll make money further down the line,
> and that'd be nice. But that's not the point at this stage. The point is
> establishing your "shelf space" on the Web so that in the long run, when it
> is possible to make a healthy profit, you won't have been shut out by the
> likes of Com.X
>
> I've offered a couple of times to consult for Fleetway, out of nostalgia and
> a genuine love for the product, to help them come up with a Web strategy,
> but answer came there none. Ideally, they should try to do a deal with my
> present employers, BBC Worldwide, who have the clout to make things happen
> on the Web.
>
> Food for thought? I thinks so, don't you?
>
> Alan.
Alan.
Have you been reading some of the stuff I've posited in the newgroup
about what 2000ad should do on the web? I even knocked up a diagram of
exactly what a perfect 2000ad website should contain- and there was
total agreement. Its really quite tragic, the reaction it got. 11 people
volunteered to work on a 2000ad website for free. Thats probably the
size of a reasonably well-off software house! Hell, theres even a domain
name registered by Spacegirl at Cybergoth for such an eventuality!
But, they want to keep it in house, sit on it until- as you say- its too late.
Instead of waggling a menu, you need to show these people the entree,
the main course, and even the moccacino afterwards! And then be prepared
to pay the tab afterwards, while they claim it on their expense sheet,
I'm sorry to say.
By the way- I personally loved Bradley, and was honoured to be peering
over Simon's shoulder while he did a lot of it. I think there should be
Milton and Bradley stuffed toys, myself. Not even a teeshirt.
Ramble, ramble, ramble, rant.
Tim.
http://www.cybergoth.net/euro7/index1.html
Its really rather good.
Andy Diggle
Fascinating to hear this stuff from the horse's mouth, as it were. We should
meet up for a pint sometime, so you can really dish the dirt about this
poisoned chalice I'm inheriting! ; )
>When I first started on 200AD, in 1987, it was at the tail end of the
>letterpress days. Prog 512, something like that. It was selling about 98,000
>per week.
>
>Pause. Think about that number. Thirteen years ago only.
>
>When I left, it was selling about 55,000.
Everything you've said about the management being ignorant, arrogant arseholes
rings very true to me, re distribution, shelf space, web presence etc. Plus ca
change...
But as far as I'm concerned, I stopped reading 2000 AD in 1991 (after 10 years
of loyalty) because I thought the comic simply wasn't good enough. By a very
long chalk indeed.
I don't know what your take on this is, but Richard Burton's first (and only)
piece of advice to me was, "Just remember, it's only a fucking comic." Now I
was just a newbie at the time (late '97), and held my tongue. But my reaction
to this attitude was, and still is, "No, it isn't just a fucking comic!" It's
something I care deeply about, as do many people on this newsgroup, and it was
infuriating to watch him piss all over it.
Garth Ennis had very much the same feeing, according to his interview with The
Comics Journal last year. The words "piss up" and "brewery" were used. I mean,
if the editor doesn't give a toss about quality, it's hardly surprising the
sales figures are going to start haemorraging, is it?
Now I wasn't there, and I don't know you, and of course you're absolutely right
about the aggressive price rises and distribution shooting the comic in the
foot. I'm not accusing you of not caring. Nevertheless.
Since I arrived on the scene in late 97, I've been stressing the importance of
quality stories and art (rather than opportunistic marketing spivvery like
BLAIR 1 and the Space Girls), and whaddaya know? The sales are levelling out.
Funny that.
And for what it's worth, we are in the process of sorting out a web-site. Yes,
it's way past time. But it will happen before the end of the year... finally!
Andy
Simon Fraser
<al...@thestoryworks.com> wrote:
>H'mm ... there's a definite tone of "it's not too bad, really" in this
>thread. But it is too bad, really.
>
>When I first started on 200AD, in 1987, it was at the tail end of the
>letterpress days. Prog 512, something like that. It was selling about 98,000
>per week.
>
>Pause. Think about that number. Thirteen years ago only.
>
>When I left, it was selling about 55,000.
>
>Now ... according to Andy, 25K.
It's interesting to hear what you say about the distribution change
and other issues of management not talking to shop floor. I've heard
this from other sources, it's the sort of thing that just leaves you
raging with impotent frustration as there is nothing, creatively at
least, that can be done when you're constantly getting your support
cut from under you.
Your point about a 2000AD web presence is a VERY good one, it almost
beggars belief that this ball has been dropped so badly.
>
>It's a real tragedy, but I don't think there's anything that could have been
>done, at least editorially, to stop the decline.
So you're saying that this wasn't anything to do with what you and
Richard Burton were publishing in the comic?
No, you don't get off with it that easy Alan. It's a refrain as
consistent as 'My mother threw away all my old Progs", "I stopped
reading 2000AD in the late 80s because it was crap!"
I know I did.
Simon F.
The Semi-Official Nikolai Dante Website
http://www.simonfraser.net
frazer irving
--
frazer alex irving
http://www.irvingfrazer.freeserve.co.uk
> From: Alan McKenzie <al...@thestoryworks.com>
> Organization: [ posted via UKOnline ]
> Newsgroups: alt.comics.2000ad
> Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 09:04:32 +0100
> Subject: Re: Definition of a hit comic?
>
> Okay - the same principal applies in the Web. You don't necessarily have to
> make money out of a Web site. But you should have one, especially for
> 2000AD. Your core audience are constantly trawling the Web looking for babes
> and psychos with guns (joke! joke!).
No, it's very very true. In my case any way.
F
frazer irving
> From: T Det <detac...@hotmail.com>
> Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net
> Reply-To: detac...@hotmail.com
> Newsgroups: alt.comics.2000ad
> Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 09:24:28 GMT
> Subject: Re: Definition of a hit website?
>
>
>
>
> Alan.
>
> Have you been reading some of the stuff I've posited in the newgroup
> about what 2000ad should do on the web? I even knocked up a diagram of
> exactly what a perfect 2000ad website should contain- and there was
> total agreement.
...?....
F (bemused)
Stephen Johnston
fascinates me. I've been buying 2000AD here in Dublin since
the early 80's, and am surprised by the numbers of
newsagents that carry multiple copies when compared to the
horrendous situation that UK types on this NG describe.
There certainly seem to be as many copies around as there
were when I was a kid, or maybe its just my travel remit is
broader. Still, I was working in Kells, Co. Meath (small
town an hour's drive from Dublin) this past week and EVERY
newsagent and even some Supermarkets that I called into had
copies from Wednesday morning (which was nice). I'm
wondering do Comag handle distribution here in Ireland or is
it a separate organisation? Alternatively are sales just
higher (per head) in the Republic? Andy?
One thing Alan, I'm not sure you're right about price
rises - I've ditched 2000AD at least thrice in the past
twenty years because I couldn't justify paying the price for
strips I didn't care for - but each time I came back when an
improved financial situation matched up with improved
stories. They may get rid of readers for a while, but not
necassarily permanently. Bit like the endless Guinness or
<<insert own favourite beer here>> price-hikes over here -
some of us swear off it for a couple of weeks, try out the
cheaper brands (Beamish, anyone?), but always end up back at
the fount.
--
___________________________________
Stephen Johnston - sjoh...@tinet.ie
"The large print giveth /
The small print taketh away" - Tom Waits
Andrew Ness
>H'mm ... there's a definite tone of "it's not too bad, really" in this
>thread. But it is too bad, really.
>
>When I first started on 200AD, in 1987, it was at the tail end of the
>letterpress days. Prog 512, something like that. It was selling about
98,000
>per week.
>
>
>Alan.
>
in terms of promotion the better, whether on the web, the newsstand or even
TV. The most cited reason for the price hikes is increasing paper costs,
there weren't many mags selling at £3+ in the 80s, now there's tons of them.
(There are several national newspapers running at a loss)
While I can't disagree with anything you've said (always interesting to get
a look behind the scenes), there are more factors at work here.
The fall in comics sales in this country is actually less dramatic than in
the States, where eight years ago, top titles were selling in the millions
(7.5 million for X-Men 1 being the record, I believe) and now come in at
around 100k. I think the move to direct sales for imported titles has hit
the casual comic reader hard. Comic shops tend to be odd places for
browsers, some have 'no kids' on the door!
When there were ten or twenty US comics on the shelf alongside several IPC
titles as well as the never ending DC Thompson range, buying comics was
easier, and more people were likely to get into the hobby. Consequently,
they were more likely to give 2000AD a try, and thus get hooked. Comics then
'grew up' promising more intelligent adult material. Which didn't really
materialise. Watchmen and Dark Knight were both great comics, but they were
still about bloody superheroes. And what followed was a lot of pale
reproductions, still with superheroes.
The kids were no longer going to get into comics unless they were introduced
to them by someone or took the bold step of going into a comic shop and
picking up one of the plethora of dross in there, and by some chance,
finding it accessible and entertaining.
Adults, unless they had been fans for years, were even less likely to get
interested.
Now that phenomena like Buffy and Pokemon are drawing people into comic
shops, there might be a change, but Forbidden Planet seems to be downsizing
the comics side of its business, and there's still the accessibility
problem.
Now Marvel are relaunching Spider Man from the beginning, perhaps this could
change.
I don't think a fully black and white 2000AD has the potential to sell any
more than a full-colour one (unless Henry Flint draws the whole thing!)
Maybe some tie-in to Playstation games could come off (remember Computer
Warrior in Eagle? There was always a competition to win the game that Bobby
was stuck in, and discover that the imagination of the scriptwriter and
artist was far superior to the technical limitations of the platform, but
now that may not be as significant.) certainly a Lara Croft strip would do
well.
Andy has indicated that he is pressing for a web-site, let's all hope
something comes of it.
T Det
> > Have you been reading some of the stuff I've posited in the newgroup
> > about what 2000ad should do on the web? I even knocked up a diagram of
> > exactly what a perfect 2000ad website should contain- and there was
> > total agreement.
> ...?....
> F (bemused)
>
By "total agreement" I was being tongue in cheek- read: no disagreement.
And you've missed some of my lengthy, detailed and wonderful posts on
websites, publishing, saving the British economy, why Jack Straw sucks
Elephant dick, and how to disarm a nuclear device, then poor you.
Tim. Fighting Section 46- it affects all of us.
mud...@my-deja.com
detac...@hotmail.com wrote:
> By the way- I personally loved Bradley, and was honoured to be peering
> over Simon's shoulder while he did a lot of it. I think there should
be
> Milton and Bradley stuffed toys, myself. Not even a teeshirt.
>
Bradley rocks :)))
That and his mum has GREAT legs :)
>
> Tim.
> http://www.cybergoth.net/euro7/index1.html
> Its really rather good.
>
MudCrab - who needs to get out more
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Adrian Bamforth
> Have you been reading some of the stuff I've posited in the newgroup
> about what 2000ad should do on the web? I even knocked up a diagram of
> exactly what a perfect 2000ad website should contain- and there was
> volunteered to work on a 2000ad website for free.
Make that 12.
If you ask me the talent and material is already there, it's a case of
putting it together under the same logo and with consistent design
throughout.
So perhaps if someone could let us have a look at the logo...
ADE
Halfway through HND Multimedia computing course.
Mark K Jones
(just for anyone who's interested:
http://members.tripod.com/dragons_eyrie/ )
frazer irving
> From: T Det <detac...@hotmail.com>
> Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net
> Reply-To: detac...@hotmail.com
> Newsgroups: alt.comics.2000ad
> Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 12:30:12 GMT
> Subject: Re: Definition of a hit website?
>
>
>>> Have you been reading some of the stuff I've posited in the newgroup
>>> about what 2000ad should do on the web? I even knocked up a diagram of
>>> exactly what a perfect 2000ad website should contain- and there was
>>> total agreement.
>> ...?....
>> F (bemused)
>>
>
> By "total agreement" I was being tongue in cheek- read: no disagreement.
> And you've missed some of my lengthy, detailed and wonderful posts on
> websites, publishing, saving the British economy, why Jack Straw sucks
> Elephant dick, and how to disarm a nuclear device, then poor you.
No, not missed 'em, just avoided them...:P
>
> Tim. Fighting Section 46- it affects all of us.
46?
F
frazer irving
> From: mud...@my-deja.com
> Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy.
> Newsgroups: alt.comics.2000ad
> Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 13:09:02 GMT
> Subject: Bradley
>
> In article <394C95A1...@hotmail.com>,
> detac...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>> By the way- I personally loved Bradley, and was honoured to be peering
>> over Simon's shoulder while he did a lot of it. I think there should
> be
>> Milton and Bradley stuffed toys, myself. Not even a teeshirt.
>>
>
> Bradley rocks :)))
>
> That and his mum has GREAT legs :)
>
>>
>> Tim.
>> http://www.cybergoth.net/euro7/index1.html
>> Its really rather good.
>>
> MudCrab - who needs to get out more
Especially today as the sun is beating down like Thor's hammer. All those
GIRLS out there today...why am I typing this??
Seeya later
F
si_spurrier
Currently engaged in the mother of all parental arguments.
Send help....
T Det
> 46?
> F
Nyah hah. Someone noticed.
Here's a clue- buy a newspaper!
Its the new RIP bill currently going through parliament faster than shit
through a goose thanks to Jack Straw's lubrication. It means that when
asked by the government, you HAVE to give up any password, encryption
key or similar or face a 2 year prison sentence- even if you've
forgotten. (Though the Tories want to make it 10 years!)
Its like having to give up your PIN number to a policeman while standing
next to a cash-point- and who trusts the police these days?
When you have a Section 46 handed to you, you can't tell anyone, even if
means perjuring yourself in court!
It also means that every ISP in the UK has to track every piece of data
going in and out. Technically, the police and MI5 have to ask a
higher-ups permission to tap your phone. Now they can legally tap your
emails, your downloads,
These are some possible scenarios:
http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl/scenarios.html
It looks verbose but reads very quickly. Its not funny.
Here's Liberty's take:
http://test.liberty.org.uk/cacib/artview.php3?currentgroup=3&pid=77&type=news
And some good news:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/netprivacy/article/0,2763,333637,00.html
Big Brother has a name- Jack Straw, and he sucks big fat elephant cock.
Tim.
Simon Fraser
<sjsNO...@wellington-college.berks.sch.uk.invalid> wrote:
>All right for some.
> Currently engaged in the mother of all parental arguments.
> Send help....
Presumably this isn't the
"What do you mean you missed your period?"
type of 'parental' argument.
:-)
S.F
Grant Goggans
>was taken to move from IPC distribution to Comag. This was announced, fait
>accompli, at a management meeting. Richard and I were flabberghasted. We'd
>both worked at Marvel UK. Who were distributed by Comag. Comag had been a
>disaster for Marvel. Yet no one at Fleetway thought to ask opinions of any
>of the staff. It never occurred to them, in their arrogance, that any of
>their editors might have had some knowledge of their new business partners.
Speaking of Marvel UK, the new Doctor Who Magazine says their sales
are up by 1,000 since BBC2 repeated a few stories.
Admittedly, this is a niche magazine without newsstand distribution,
but I think it illustrates a point that if you put something in the
public eye, people will think about it. And if 1000 people go
searching for DWM at comic shops because some tatty 70s blue-screen
crap with the Silurians is on TV, think how many would pick up 2000 AD
in the newstands if there was a proper, good-looking ad campaign
going, with TV, with billboards, with ads in magazines like FHM, with
people making personal appearances as Sinister and Dexter (I'm
serious! Have them invade that Richard and Judy show people were
talking about). Hell, get some model posing as Durham Red and have
her in FHM...
Have a new ad campaign, something like "Comics Your Mother Wouldn't
Dare Throw Away" (even though most of the 25+ yr. old readers'
mothers' did).
Send us unofficial webmasters some swanky wallpaper and banners and
stuff and make sure we're all listed in the big search engines (under
babes and guns, Alan?)
And everybody buy two copies of Tooth. (I already do, but that's only
to guarantee I get the one, thanks to Diamond Distribution being so
stupid.)
Also... Warren Ellis did a column for Comic Book Resources in May
about Dave Sim's big Cerebus promotion, which sounds incredible.
Something like that, once some proper reprints get bound and out
there, would sell remarkably well. (Basically, qualifying retailers
get the frigging huge phonebook reprints for next to nothing.)
Come on, this can't be that difficult. Give me a frigging budget,
Fleetway, and I'll do it for you. I sell small press more effectively
than you sell to newstands, and for nothing!
--
happily ever after,
Grant
si_spurrier
Grant Goggans
>So you're saying that this wasn't anything to do with what you and
>Richard Burton were publishing in the comic?
That's not entirely fair, Simon.
We're mostly in agreement on the newsgroup that very little of
interest or quality was published for a few years, that Michael
Fleisher should never have been let near Rogue, that Mark Millar
should never been let near Dredd or Sam Slade, etc.
But these are matters of taste, and of opinion. And the Thargs at the
time were not actively looking for crap. Getting a really good writer
from DC, as Fleisher was once (look up 70s Bat Lash, and Ditko's Shade
the Changing Man if you don't believe me) was a good idea. Bringing
back Robo-Hunter was a good idea.
While sure, it was a big mistake to continue with the crap once it was
immediately discernible as crap, the editors were trying. You can see
it in the frequent redesigns, the record reviews from Roxilla, the
damn bold and brazen Summer Offensive... so they didn't work all the
time, at least a conscious effort was being made.
I don't think 20,000 readers left the comic in protest over how
horrible Mother Earth and Dinosty were, any more than you're gonna
gain 20,000 readers back with new Nemesis and
Strontium Dog stories.
Losses that large have a lot more to do with distributors and with the
newsstand price. Most readers will weather crap stories... I mean,
we're all riding out the current Slaine shitstorm, aren't we?
In short, I'll agree that "some" people dropped the book because they
found the early-mid 90s adventures lacking/poor/outrageously shitty, I
will believe that "a lot more" people dropped it because of
price/distribution problems/comics not being cool/Playstation, etc.
After all, 2000 AD's still selling 20,000+ a week. What are all those
other stacks and stacks of varied and numerous British comics on
newstand shelves selling? I mean, we're down to Sonic the Comic and
Viz and Beano and... what, exactly? I'm not sure, but there ain't as
many as there were even as late as 1987.
2000 AD... still only $2.25 in America.
si_spurrier
Grant Goggans
wrote:
>By "total agreement" I was being tongue in cheek- read: no disagreement.
>And you've missed some of my lengthy, detailed and wonderful posts on
>... why Jack Straw sucks
>Elephant dick...
<american>what the ...?</american>
Clam
> horrible Mother Earth and Dinosty were, any more than you're gonna
> gain 20,000 readers back with new Nemesis and
> Strontium Dog stories.
>
I really did stop reading around '90 because it had become dull..I bought
the 'best of' and the occasional Megazine but 2000ad really left me
cold...I followed the Brit creators into the American comics and when
they went up their own arses I came back. Glad I did.
This, I'm told, is a fairly common story. Borne out by the circulation
figures. Good Art/Good Story = Readers. Mr Diggle is making all the right
noises...
MIKED
Grant Goggans
>This, I'm told, is a fairly common story. Borne out by the circulation
>figures. Good Art/Good Story = Readers. Mr Diggle is making all the right
>noises...
The equation, we hope, keeps readers. What's needed now is a way to
let those 78,000 people who *were* reading prog 512 know that
Strontium Dog is back, and Steve Moore is back, and Button Man's
returning, and some fantastic new thrills are starting.
Grant Morrison has a good point on Fandom's Newsarama. Somebody has
convinced hundreds of millions of children that Pokemon is more
important than breathing. That same eye for marketing is needed, and
with a little thought, surely 2000 AD sales can be increased at least
by a few thousand.
Gary Gray
have I am sure, but one comment in here I will stand up and celebrate him
for "No, it isnt just a fucking comic!" Yeeeeessssssss ! If we have someone
on board who really does care then things arew definetely looking up.
Official website , yeeeessss, too, I'm sure a lot of us would like to get
involved in some way. Andy you know where we are , just ask and we will be
there. So what all can we do to help 2000ad ? One thing, word of mouth, its
what gets people doing things. Tell all your mates who read comics or might
read comics just how essential 200ad is again. Hell if we all get one person
reading it again + 50,000 readers, and if they get one other person....well
you figure it out.
Gary Gray
(who can say proudly say he never stopped reading 200ad ever, hey can I get
an award for that-_ KillNoStopWhenCrappoThargo , maybe ?)
Andy Diggle <andyd...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000618070519...@ng-fa1.aol.com...
> Hi Alan,
>
> Fascinating to hear this stuff from the horse's mouth, as it were. We
should
> meet up for a pint sometime, so you can really dish the dirt about this
> poisoned chalice I'm inheriting! ; )
>
> >When I first started on 200AD, in 1987, it was at the tail end of the
> >letterpress days. Prog 512, something like that. It was selling about
98,000
> >per week.
> >
> >Pause. Think about that number. Thirteen years ago only.
> >
> >When I left, it was selling about 55,000.
>
Kevin Symonds
>>...with ads in magazines like FHM<<
Talking of which I found two 2000ad ads that were in FHM a while ago that
I'd saved.
Pretty weak to say the least!
Kevin
Simon Fraser
(Grant Goggans) wrote:
>On Sun, 18 Jun 2000 11:04:38 GMT, co...@nope.com (Simon Fraser) wrote:
>>So you're saying that this wasn't anything to do with what you and
>>Richard Burton were publishing in the comic?
>
>That's not entirely fair, Simon.
Oh I think it is.
Though if I could redraft my initial rebuke I would replace the word
'crap' with 'boring'.
If a comic is 'good' then obviously the editors are hiring the right
people and giving them a focus or inspiration to do good work. Some
kind of drive and passion is in evidence.
If a comic is 'crap' , that can mean that the material being published
in the comic was forcing me to react strongly to it in some way. The
creators and editors are trying something that I feel is bad. At least
I am still engaged, there may be drive and passion there, just
misdirected.
If the comic is 'boring' then I'll look at this thing on the shelf and
struggle to remember why I'm contemplating buying it. If the people
who made it don't care about it, why should I?
2000AD can have many faults, but it should NEVER EVER be boring!
Simon F.
Stephen Johnston
haven't read the Ellis article). My recollections are drawn
from Dave Sim's own ramblings at the back of the book..
Dave's four-person Aardvark-Vanaheim operation (just him,
co-artist Gerhard, a proof reader and an office assistant)
pulled out all the stops back around Issue 150, promoting
Cerebus primarily to existing comics readers and their
unfortunate girlfriends through practically cost-free
agreements with comics shops, using simple blueprints for
stylish in-store displays, complete with clever leaflets,
plot-summary books and readily available cheap (to the
stores) reprint volumes, free signed stuff, sketches and
posters and heaps of personal appearances and interviews.
IIRC reciprocal advertising played a big part in this too,
which is maybe something 2000AD might try its hand at?
Print a free full-page FHM/Esquire/Loaded ad in exchange for
a reciprocal third of page in one of the biggies? (must
point out that I loathe the three titles mentioned).
On the existing comics fan front how about playing up the
multimedia tie-in aspect, now that Abnet is writing X-men
books in the movie run-up, that the Wagner fella churns out
the SW and Xena movie tie-in stuff that shifts big numbers
these days? Use the allegedly imminent website to sell the
Vertigo-heads buckets of old collected
Morrison/Ennis/Millar, the completist Moore junkies those
great chunky Halo Jones and Time Twister volumes, at the
same time crucially selling them the idea of 2000AD as the
cutting-edge cradle of tomorrow's comics talent that it
always has been. Where are these anal-retentive people
going to find the early signposts of genius that are the
Amazing Maze Dumoir, Zenith, The Dead or Tribal Memories if
not from us?
I mean, look at just three of those names - Moore, Ennis,
Morrison - that's half the whole bloody American comics
industry coming out of "apprenticeships" on one British
title. Surely there's promotional mileage to be had from
that?
These are NOT big money TV-ad issues, these are concepts
that can be got across quite cheaply through sensible
low-key virtually word-of-mouth marketing. It's getting at
the non-comics people that's costly, IMHO, so start with the
easy targets, and used the increased revenue to go from
there. The point is, Dave Sim's big push was very low on
cost and mutually beneficial to retailers and A-V. This was
no huge-budget ad agency campaign, it was just one guy, his
three co-workers and lots of energy and ideas. And it
worked.
'Course then around Issue 185 Dave drove all the new readers
away again with his Male Light/Female Void tomfoolery, and
sales are still in freefall, apparently. But I still love
him and his 300 issue descent into insanity, the psychotic
old bastard.
John King
> Comics Journal last year. The words "piss up" and "brewery" were used.
This is true, first hand. I actually knew a bloke who took a coachload
of students on a trip to a brewery: they weren't allowed to drink at the
brewery, and no pub would let them in on the way back.
As you can imagine, he never lived it down.
Grant Goggans
<sjoh...@tinet.ie> wrote:
>Dave's four-person Aardvark-Vanaheim operation (just him,
>co-artist Gerhard, a proof reader and an office assistant)
>pulled out all the stops back around Issue 150, promoting
>Cerebus primarily to existing comics readers and their
>unfortunate girlfriends through practically cost-free
>agreements with comics shops, using simple blueprints for
>stylish in-store displays, complete with clever leaflets,
>plot-summary books and readily available cheap (to the
>stores) reprint volumes, free signed stuff, sketches and
>posters and heaps of personal appearances and interviews.
Two other important advertising things occur to me.
I don't know how it works in England, but here, Previews, the Diamond
Distribuion catalog, is a big phone book thing, and it's full of ads.
I used to work part-time at a comic shop in Athens -- Bizarro Wuxtry,
Earth's greatest -- and would sometimes help with orders. Previews
has whacking great sections paid for by Dark Horse, Marvel and DC with
page after page of color shots of upcoming covers and so on. All the
smaller publishers have nothing more than itty bitty listings in the
alphabetical section. And there under Fleetway, or Egmont Fleetway,
is a teeny little thing for "2000 AD# 1174-1178" or so, and a short
graf with the contents of the first of the four issues solicited.
No wonder you have to beg most retailers to carry the thing. It's a
pain in the butt to look for.
The other thing is retailer promotions. Each order from Diamond is
full of posters and one-sheets for retailers to display. The only
Dredd thing I've ever seen in it was for the Cam Kennedy Batman/Dredd
special.
I'm also wondering about personal appearances... it's been years since
TMO mentioned a forthcoming droid signing in the pages of 2000 AD. Do
they not happen anymore, and everyone just waits for Bristol?
> I mean, look at just three of those names - Moore, Ennis,
>Morrison - that's half the whole bloody American comics
>industry coming out of "apprenticeships" on one British
>title. Surely there's promotional mileage to be had from
>that?
The key is "promotion." Retailers aren't going to order it if they
can't find it. St. Swithin's Day and Skin come to mind as material by
a big name and a medium-sized name that you never see in US shops even
though they were certainly printed in the US... because no retailer is
going to read listing after listing of teeny publishers looking for
the name Grant Morrison.
When Zenith becomes properly available again (as it must, if not in
one 400-pager, then in a big volume with Phases 1-2 and Interludes 1-2
and a second big volume with Phases 3-4, Interlude 3 and the Maximan
story), it needs a big two-page spread in Previews, in Wizard
Magazine, in SFX, and a smaller half-page ad in lots of other
magazines -- definitely Entertainment Weekly -- and the ad needs to
say in large, dramatic letters:
GRANT MORRISON'S FIRST SUPERHERO EPIC!
Then in the back of the book, on the last page, an explanation of what
2000 AD *is*, selling its creators, its history, its legacy, Judge
Dredd and babes with guns, and that it should be available from any
good comic shop (and, in England, newsstand).
You gotta spend money to make money, and if Fleetway doesn't
understand that, they're in the wrong trade.
Grant Goggans
Really? I remember one in SFX hawking Preacher being in the Meg
(reading "Pray") and Durham Red in 2000 (reading "Prey") and weak was
far too kind a word for that thing.
See, another thing... the person making the ads needs to be good at
their job. And ISTR Andy telling us that the ad guy at Fleetway
married the boss's daughter or something like that.
Kevin Symonds
I'd saved.
> >Pretty weak to say the least!<<
Grant Goggins:
>> Really? I remember one in SFX hawking Preacher being in the Meg (reading
"Pray") and Durham Red in 2000 (reading "Prey") and weak was far too kind a
word for that thing.<<
Well the two I've got (and I think there might have been another) are 'Women
just don't get it'.
"Why can't it have more nice characters and happy endings?" and "He shoots
someone's leg off and says 'Hop it'. Is that supposed to be funny?"
If someone would like to have them on their website then I'll scan them in.
Kevin
Nigel Poll
wrote:
>
>Have you been reading some of the stuff I've posited in the newgroup
>about what 2000ad should do on the web? I even knocked up a diagram of
>exactly what a perfect 2000ad website should contain- and there was
>size of a reasonably well-off software house! Hell, theres even a domain
>name registered by Spacegirl at Cybergoth for such an eventuality!
>
>But, they want to keep it in house, sit on it until- as you say- its too late.
>
If any publication deserves a website it is 2000AD. The opportunity
should be embraced whole-heartedly by the publisher as a means of
advertising, self-promotion and to avoid the major and most
infuriating (to this NG) sin - that of omission. However, there are
commercial realities at work.
Mr Buford T. Fleetway III sits in his office smoking a cigar the size
of Finland. The walls are embossed with fallen editors' happy-sacs. He
chews over a proposal for an Internet presence, submitted by some
minion from the boiler room (Wiggle? Beagle? Dongle?) who's motivation
is in promoting 2000AD but has cleverly couched it in capitalist
terms. He decides that there is a good business case and that wonga
can be generated, therefore wonga will be spent to create it. HOWEVER
- Daddy Warbucks is not thinking about how to keep the loyal legions
of 2000AD readers happy, he's thinking:
- how will the company benefit?
- how can the expenditure be justified to the shareholders?
- when will this expenditure be recouped?
- what else can we use this web site for?
- what will it cost to pull the plug if it goes tits-up?
Excuse my frivolity - the point is that the executive coven will want
absolute control. Obviously. Nothing will go on the site without
approval - and I don't think anyone here would have a problem with
that. However, can you imagine the looks that Andy Diggle will get if
he tells them that the design is from one fan and the content from a
bunch of others? This is business, and when business decides to spend
serious money they tend to do precisely that. They do not like dealing
with enthusiastic amateurs (which is probably why there are so many
crap corporate websites out there). Whatever the quality of the
material that is offered - and looking at Cybergoth that quality is
not in doubt - Fleetway won't touch it if they don't control it.
My point is this: the two forces here are unlikely to work together.
However, there is room for two sites. From Fleetway, a site that is a
part of the corporate whole - official, informative and representative
of editorial policy - a site that presents 2000AD as it's owners want
it to be seen. From fandom, a site that represents what the readers
and long-term loyalists see in the comic, with all the passion,
creativity and appropriate 'homage' paid to something which is, to
many, a part of their life. If there is any justice in the world the
fan site would have the blessing of Fleetway and be nominated as the
'fan site of choice'. Or something. And the connection between the
two? Step forward, Mr Diggle.
I'm not trying to rain on any particular parade, but I've made enough
business proposals to know how the corporate mind works.
Phew. Longest post ever. Fingers bleeding. Brain hurts. Need tea.
Nigel the pragmatic.
si_spurrier
site is a little daft.. Anyone that they employ to design and
execute the webpage (at some ridiculous fee, probably), is going
to be an outside contractor - ie: someone who has no previous
knoweldge of 2000AD and environs. The bigwigs only 'control' it
through their design medium - using an 'outsider' to bridge that
gap has got to be counterproductive. Surely they could make use
of the fanbase with its knowledge and enthusiasm for the project
without surrounding total control - perhaps establish some sort
of 'approval' clause whereby nothing designed by the fans is
given the official seal of approval until after rigorous
editorials and review. That way Fleetway gets its control and
the fans get their creative input.
Everyone's happy - unless I've overlooked something..
ShuggyBarr
>
>(who can say proudly say he never stopped reading 200ad ever, hey can I get
>an award for that-_ KillNoStopWhenCrappoThargo , maybe ?)
>
Me too - even when those Fucking Memesis Photo Stories were being published.
There was always at least one story worth reading even during the worst phases.
Grant Goggans
<cleve...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Well the two I've got (and I think there might have been another) are 'Women
>just don't get it'.
>"Why can't it have more nice characters and happy endings?" and "He shoots
>someone's leg off and says 'Hop it'. Is that supposed to be funny?"
>If someone would like to have them on their website then I'll scan them in.
I don't want anything that stupid anywhere near my website.
Was that actually meant to sell the comic? Seems like what happens
when you let the custodians write the ad copy...
Adrian Bamforth
"Alan McKenzie" <al...@thestoryworks.com> wrote in message
news:B5724120.500%al...@thestoryworks.com...
> H'mm ... there's a definite tone of "it's not too bad, really" in this
> thread. But it is too bad, really.
>
> When I first started on 200AD, in 1987, it was at the tail end of the
> letterpress days
Ah, back in the days when it was just 200AD
ADE
LDYS
There are lots of good ideas here - I for one can testify to the
effectiveness of Dave Sim's circa Cerebus 150 push (just as I can testify
to the wackiness of his misogynist period - Pat Mills take note).
I've found Alan's comments very interesting, but Andy and Simon are quite
right to point out that the comic in the mid-90s was crap. IMHO, while the
comments Alan makes about marketing are quite correct as far as maximising
new and occasional readers is concerned, the quality issue drove a lot of
hardened fans away. And hardened fans, once discouraged, are hard to win
back.
If Richard Burton really said "It's only a comic" then that explains a
lot. He left a comic with a 20 year shelf life, which has outlived the
original Eagle if I'm not mistaken, and which contains at least one
character that was on the verge of becoming a national institution (and
might well still). Nostalgia is there to be exploited; 2000AD isn't just a
comic - it's a marketing opportunity.
Alan is also quite right about the internet. A few weeks ago I suggested
that a Judge Dredd web comic might be a good idea, given the success of
Astounding Space Stories. I still think it would work, and I suspect it
would not only be self financing, but would market JDM and 2000AD on the
web for free. Currently, we can't even subscribe online.
Finally, the American market. IMHO, what Fleetway needs is a US partner.
This was tried with DC in the mid-90s and failed, but the problem with
that deal was that the US comics were produced solely for the US market,
the UK comics for the UK, and never the 'twain shall meet.
Their mistake was to reinvent Dredd for the US market. The result was
total confusion and pointlessness, with a year being wasted in creating a
completely new backstory which wasn't what Dredd was about at all. I
remain of the opinion that there are enough people in the US who would
"get" Dredd if they ever read it - even if that only amounted to a tiny
proportion of the population, we are still talking about tens of
thousands (I'd go as far as hundreds of thousands, but the industry is in
too small a state), not a handful.
I would argue that a better type of relationship would be the one worked
out for the Dredd/Predator mini (although with better material!). Why not,
for example, commission a series of Dredd minis, penned by the Great Man
himself, which would then be simultaneously published both in the US by
(eg) Dark Horse and in the UK within the pages of the Meg? Both companies
would be effectively spreading the risk, and lets face it there is very
little cross over between the UK newstand and US direct market (UK comic
shops notwithstanding, and none of the ones I've visited recently do a
very good job at promoting 2000AD).
Of course, if 2000AD turns into a Prog 2000 style monthly as Andy may or
may not have hinted at a few weeks ago, that sort of cross over would
become even more of a viable option (before I get accused of putting words
into Mr Diggle's mouth, that is just my interpretation of what he said,
and Dave Bishop has hinted at elsewhere). Why limit it to existing
characters? Why not try out entirely new series, jointly published?
James Graham
Adrian Bamforth
"Kevin Symonds" <cleve...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:buo35.3139$_55....@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
"He shoots
> someone's leg off and says 'Hop it'. Is that supposed to be funny?"
I#d like to know if that line was actually in a strip and if not, why not?
ADE
T Det
bosses, then go off and form a website consultancy company, hiring
people from the newsgroup.
Diggle tells his bosses that he's contracting this company, for a
fair-sized budget. They agree, not knowing any better, and it all works
out beautifully.
In an ideal world.
Tim.
Gary Gray
anything, but when I was in Forbidden Planet in glasgow the bloddy place was
jumping with people, I was completely surprised I fully expected to see oh a
couple of people but I could hardly move for folk. I reckon it was busier
than most of the other shops around. So to get to the point it seems to be
there is a market, they just have to be given a reason to read 2000ad.
Gary Gray
LDYS <ld...@cix.co.uk> wrote in message
news:memo.20000619...@ldys.compulink.co.uk...
si_spurrier
"Hop it...."
[sorry....]
Gary Gray
charge £25,000 for a weeks work, think they'll go for it ?
And considering my coding isn't that hot, bet they do !
Gary Gray
T Det <detac...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:394E7152...@hotmail.com...
Alan McKenzie
Simon's criticism doesn't actually amount to a criticism. "I stopped
reading 2000AD in the late 80s because it was crap!" doesn't constitute - by
*anyone's* definition - intelligent comment.
This is largely why I don't waste my time with newsgroups.
So, if Simon thinks he can give me something to go on - oh, like what issues
of the mag he considered were crap, what stories in particular were crap,
and perhaps, if he thinks he can manage it, *why* he thinks they were crap,
then I'll attempt to draft an intelligent response.
But generally, when people try to smack me - or my friends - in the gob
without giving a reason - I generally give as good as I get.
Alan.
> From: gmsl...@hhhoootttmmmaaaiiilll.com (Grant Goggans)
> Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
> Reply-To: geeemme...@athotmaildot.com
> Newsgroups: alt.comics.2000ad
> Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 17:42:12 GMT
> Subject: Re: Definition of a hit comic?
>
> On Sun, 18 Jun 2000 11:04:38 GMT, co...@nope.com (Simon Fraser) wrote:
>> So you're saying that this wasn't anything to do with what you and
>> Richard Burton were publishing in the comic?
>
> That's not entirely fair, Simon.
>
> We're mostly in agreement on the newsgroup that very little of
> interest or quality was published for a few years, that Michael
> Fleisher should never have been let near Rogue, that Mark Millar
> should never been let near Dredd or Sam Slade, etc.
>
> But these are matters of taste, and of opinion. And the Thargs at the
> time were not actively looking for crap. Getting a really good writer
> from DC, as Fleisher was once (look up 70s Bat Lash, and Ditko's Shade
> the Changing Man if you don't believe me) was a good idea. Bringing
> back Robo-Hunter was a good idea.
>
> While sure, it was a big mistake to continue with the crap once it was
> immediately discernible as crap, the editors were trying. You can see
> it in the frequent redesigns, the record reviews from Roxilla, the
> damn bold and brazen Summer Offensive... so they didn't work all the
> time, at least a conscious effort was being made.
>
> I don't think 20,000 readers left the comic in protest over how
> horrible Mother Earth and Dinosty were, any more than you're gonna
> gain 20,000 readers back with new Nemesis and
> Strontium Dog stories.
>
> Losses that large have a lot more to do with distributors and with the
> newsstand price. Most readers will weather crap stories... I mean,
> we're all riding out the current Slaine shitstorm, aren't we?
>
> In short, I'll agree that "some" people dropped the book because they
> found the early-mid 90s adventures lacking/poor/outrageously shitty, I
> will believe that "a lot more" people dropped it because of
> price/distribution problems/comics not being cool/Playstation, etc.
>
> After all, 2000 AD's still selling 20,000+ a week. What are all those
> other stacks and stacks of varied and numerous British comics on
> newstand shelves selling? I mean, we're down to Sonic the Comic and
> Viz and Beano and... what, exactly? I'm not sure, but there ain't as
> many as there were even as late as 1987.
>
> 2000 AD... still only $2.25 in America.
>
si_spurrier
"Why can't we all just, y'know... Be Nice and Get Along?"
-Si [Hiding under his swivel-chair as the n/g hots-up]
si_spurrier
>>just don't get it'.
You've got to wonder about someone who tries to advertise by
deliberately restricting the target audience. Meatheads.
Simon Fraser
<al...@thestoryworks.com> wrote:
>Thanks Grant, but I think I can speak for myself.
>
>Simon's criticism doesn't actually amount to a criticism. "I stopped
>reading 2000AD in the late 80s because it was crap!" doesn't constitute - by
>*anyone's* definition - intelligent comment.
My point was that you as editor and assistant editor bear a very
substantial responsibility for why or why not your comic will sell.
You were quite happy to blame the management of Fleetway for the
disastrous drop in the comics sales, but not willing to accept any
responsibility yourself.
Sorry but I find that a bit rich.
>
>This is largely why I don't waste my time with newsgroups.
I waste quite a lot of time on this newsgroup, it has it's own rules
and it's own way of working, much as any large gathering of people
has. It can be frustrating and it can also be very rewarding. I think
it has the highest 'signal to noise ratio' of any group that I know.
There is a danger with e-mail and usenet of being rather too blunt
while making a point and thus offending someone and starting a lot of
needlessly counterproductive argument. If I have done that in this
case then I apologise. 'Crap' was an unnecessarily inflammatory word,
as I've already said.
>
>So, if Simon thinks he can give me something to go on - oh, like what issues
>of the mag he considered were crap, what stories in particular were crap,
>and perhaps, if he thinks he can manage it, *why* he thinks they were crap,
>then I'll attempt to draft an intelligent response.
Well this is an open forum, does anyone out there want to agree or
disagree that the late 80s early 90s period in 2000ADs history was
largely forgettable?
I can remember the things I liked certainly <Zenith>, but the rest of
it has faded from memory to a large extent. That in itself is a
criticism.
Sorry , but I'm not going to rake through a box of back Progs to
revive those memories.... even if I could.
I'll stand behind my first point and open the 'crap' one to the floor.
Gary Gray
down the pan quite a bit, Michael Fleischer was the biggest mistake 2000ad
ever had, and I reckon he was the major reason for turning shite. God I
still hate everyting he did with Rogue Trooper ever.
Gary Gray
Simon Fraser <co...@nope.com> wrote in message
news:394e907a...@195.34.133.35...
Jim Connick
Gary Gray <gary...@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
news:GRu35.125$2C6....@nnrp4.clara.net...
> Reading this made me think of comics and related stuff, comics hardly sell
> anything, but when I was in Forbidden Planet in glasgow the bloddy place
was
> jumping with people, I was completely surprised I fully expected to see oh
a
> couple of people but I could hardly move for folk. I reckon it was busier
> than most of the other shops around. So to get to the point it seems to be
> there is a market, they just have to be given a reason to read 2000ad.
>
> Gary Gray
earlier today, and it was packed. Much to my dismay there was only myself
and 2 other people actually in there looking for comics, the rest seemed to
be there soley to stock up on pokemon, Buffy and WWF merchandise.
And the back issue bit seemed to be going for the interesting tactic of
trying to sell things by placing big boxes on top of the racks, and having 3
very strange looking guys talking to the bloke behind the counter. Not much
use when you want in to the 2000AD bin down the end (wayhey, I'm on topic)
Still, its not as bad as the other comic shop in Glasgow which has decided
that it'll get rid of an entire side of the shop (it was like 2 sides, kinda
open plan) which used to have comics, and fill it with wrestling toys.
I'm telling you, I'm trying to buy comics, but even the shops seem to be
conspiring against me...
si_spurrier
blunt
>while making a point and thus offending someone and starting a
lot of
>needlessly counterproductive argument.
I think one of the biggest problems with all this
conversational typing is that we forget that there is no way of
communicating tones of voices and ways of saying things. I
think - in my uncomplicated way - that there should be a simple
variety of, say, colours codes for Inet chatting. Say - black
for general, everyday conversation, green for sarcastic
comments, red for deliberately vitriolic or inflammatory
comments, blue for deep sincerity - something simple but obvious
like that.
I have to proof-read everything very carefully just to make
sure I haven't unwittingly insulted someone. I often get it
wrong (yeah, I know.... The 'Diggle' thing..)..
I suppose that any fairly revolutionary form of communication
is going to encounter the occassional bugs, right?
T Det
:P Sticking tongue out
:)> Happy person with goatee- or Pringle V-neck jumper.
8^)> Smart-arse speccy git with goatee
(V) Wearing a bikini.
(|) Appearing in a Sisqo video. (#thong tha thong thong thong...)
(!) Fat lady in a mini-skirt bending over, picking up shopping.
*g* Grin
*wg* Wicked Grin
*lol* Laughing Out Loud
# Singing/ Whistling
Tim. Bored.
frazer irving
> From: si_spurrier <sjsNO...@wellington-college.berks.sch.uk.invalid>
> Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here
> Newsgroups: alt.comics.2000ad
> Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 15:39:56 -0700
> Subject: Re: Definition of a hit comic?
>
>> There is a danger with e-mail and usenet of being rather too
> blunt
>> while making a point and thus offending someone and starting a
> lot of
>> needlessly counterproductive argument.
>
>
> I think one of the biggest problems with all this
> conversational typing is that we forget that there is no way of
> communicating tones of voices and ways of saying things. I
> think - in my uncomplicated way - that there should be a simple
> variety of, say, colours codes for Inet chatting. Say - black
> for general, everyday conversation, green for sarcastic
> comments, red for deliberately vitriolic or inflammatory
> comments, blue for deep sincerity - something simple but obvious
> like that.
> I have to proof-read everything very carefully just to make
> sure I haven't unwittingly insulted someone. I often get it
> wrong (yeah, I know.... The 'Diggle' thing..)..
> I suppose that any fairly revolutionary form of communication
> is going to encounter the occassional bugs, right?
Apparently there IS a form of shorthand punctuation which does all this...
that's where the smileys come in I think...but none of us know it so it's
rendered impotent.
If anyone DOES know, then share please.
(.) arsehole
(_._) lard arse
() tight arse
Heh, that's only a joke of course...
F
Stephen Johnston
>>Then in the back of the book, on the last page, an
explanation of what
>>2000 AD *is*, selling its creators, its history, its
legacy,
You're speaking my language, Goggans.
Alan McKenzie
> From: co...@nope.com (Simon Fraser)
> Organization: Chello Austria
> Newsgroups: alt.comics.2000ad
> Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 21:54:15 GMT
> Subject: Re: Definition of a hit comic?
>
> On Mon, 19 Jun 2000 22:14:38 +0100, Alan McKenzie
> <al...@thestoryworks.com> wrote:
>
>> Thanks Grant, but I think I can speak for myself.
>>
>> Simon's criticism doesn't actually amount to a criticism. "I stopped
>> reading 2000AD in the late 80s because it was crap!" doesn't constitute - by
>> *anyone's* definition - intelligent comment.
>
> My point was that you as editor and assistant editor bear a very
> substantial responsibility for why or why not your comic will sell.
> You were quite happy to blame the management of Fleetway for the
> disastrous drop in the comics sales, but not willing to accept any
> responsibility yourself.
>
> Sorry but I find that a bit rich.
There's a couple of points here that you are making, but probably not
realising it.
The first here is that as we weren't doing anything substantially different
in the weeks leading up to the change in distribution than we were after or
even substantially before, then I think it's safe to say that the 20K
(20,000, fer chissakes!) drop in sales over two to three issues was almost
entirely due to the radical change in distribution methods.
Anyone want to argue with that?
Okay, the other thing is that 2000AD is like a living organism. The editor
doesn't really control 2000AD. Andy will back me up on this. Any editor who
thinks he has absolute mastery over a title is fooling himself. You are
entirely at the whim of the creators.
Indulge me. Play a game for a moment. Give me the ideal line-up (with
creators) for the perfect run of 2000AD. Here, I'll start you off.
Dredd by Wagner & Bisley
Slaine by Mills and Fabry
ABC Warriors by Mills and Walker
Zenith by Grant and Yeowell
and because we have to have one crap story ... Luke Kirby by McKenzie and
Ridgway.
Now I'll tell you why that won't happen. Ever.
Reality check. 2000AD can't afford Bisley. You might get him for a one-off
or a special, but forget about a ten prog run of Dredd. Simon doesn't want
to do a ten week run. That's thirty weeks of his life, full time, devoted to
working ten hours a day for £200 - £250 per page. That's shit money for him.
He wouldn't do it (prove me wrong, Simon B - heh! heh!)
Slaine by Fabry. Nice idea. But the rule (at least when I was there) that
artists had to turn in a set every three weeks. Four, maybe. The reason for
this is stock. Stock is how much money has been spent on the magazine
without return. Fabry takes six weeks to paint a Slaine episode. If he
rushes it. That's £1.5K. Now, because he doesn't do an episode every week,
2000AD has to commission Glenn in advance. It can't possibly start running
the series until at least eight episodes, nine to be safe, are in the
drawer. That's £12K sitting in a drawer doing nothing. Accounts don't take
those costs off the stock figure until the comic hits the stands. Or more
likely until the distributor pays up for those issues (I'm not an
accountant, I'm not sure).
ABC Warriors - Kev Walker, same reason as Fabry.
Zenith - Grant's earning way too much money writing DC's top selling comic,
JLA. Okay he's giving it up now, but not to write Zenith. Last time I spoke
to Grant about Zenith he felt he had nothing more to say there. So supposing
Grant could have his arm twisted into doing another, it'd be - by Grant's
definition - second rate Zenith.
Luke Kirby - we'll leave aside the fact that Fleetway tried to bully and
blackmail me into signing a document that assigned all rights, not just the
rights in their standard contract (which I wasn't sent and didn't sign), to
them for no money. The reason that Ridgway didn't draw the third series was
that it took him over eighteen months to draw the second. That's a lot of
full colour artwork to carry in stock. I was told, find a faster artist.
While I was disappointed with the art on series three, Parkhouse and
Abadziz, both really good alone, didn't mesh. The fourth series was my
favourite and was pure Parkhouse. The man's criminally under-used.
It's very easy to sit in your living room and say, "bring back Bisley!" But
this is reality, Bisley has a life. He likes to spend time with his wife and
children. 2000AD doesn't own him. Nor do you.
The other thing is that 2000AD is like a supertanker. The way the stories
are created and the way your budget is supervised, it's not possible to
change direction substantially inside six months. Once the book became
colour, we lost the luxury of being able to respond quickly to the market.
We had to lead the market or go under. I think we did very well. I think
most of the decisions we made were the right ones.
Okay, within those parameters, every editor does his best. No editor sets
out to put crap stories in the paper. It's not a personal vendetta to get at
you :-)
>> This is largely why I don't waste my time with newsgroups.
>
> I waste quite a lot of time on this newsgroup, it has it's own rules
> and it's own way of working, much as any large gathering of people
> has. It can be frustrating and it can also be very rewarding. I think
> it has the highest 'signal to noise ratio' of any group that I know.
>
> There is a danger with e-mail and usenet of being rather too blunt
> while making a point and thus offending someone and starting a lot of
> needlessly counterproductive argument. If I have done that in this
> case then I apologise. 'Crap' was an unnecessarily inflammatory word,
> as I've already said.
>
>>
>> So, if Simon thinks he can give me something to go on - oh, like what issues
>> of the mag he considered were crap, what stories in particular were crap,
>> and perhaps, if he thinks he can manage it, *why* he thinks they were crap,
>> then I'll attempt to draft an intelligent response.
>
> Well this is an open forum, does anyone out there want to agree or
> disagree that the late 80s early 90s period in 2000ADs history was
> largely forgettable?
There are periods of 2000AD history that I thought were weak. But once I
worked there, I realised that there reasons, usually beyond the power of the
editor to change. So while I might have my differences with Pat Mills, I
understood that during the first year of the paper, he was constrained by
management to use Spanish artists because Fleetway had bulk deals with
several Spanish agencies and got the art a lot cheaper that way.
Not your problem? Too right, it's not. You just want a good comic. "Don't
bring me problems, bring me solutions!"
I thought Steve Mac's run as editor was the best. He had Bolland on Dredd,
Fabry on Slaine, Colin Wilson of Rogue (thuogh the scripts were so rubbish,
Steve had to throw them in the bin and re-write them from the ground up.
That period of Rogue Trooper? That was MacManus, that was. The legend inside
Fleetway was Gerry Finley-Day was a former Managing Editor and consequently
was guaranteed work by other management types. That mayn't be true. You'd
need Steve to confirm that.
But overall, a great run on the comic. But Steve didn't have the US offering
his contributors better money and better strips to write/draw. He didn't
suffer from the brain drain that Richard and I had to contend with.
You didn't like the late 80s? Well, over the years I've talked to a lot of
readers. I don't mean folk like those in this newsgroup. People here are
focussed, concerned with the way the comic runs, know the names of the
backroom boys (like me!). The readers just like Dredd, or Slaine and maybe
at a stretch, "Bizleee". And the thing I notice is that everyone has a
different Golden Age of 2000AD.
Asimov is reputed to have said, "The Golden Age of science fiction is ten!"
With 2000AD, I say its Golden Age is fifteen. The 2000 AD that came out when
you were fifteen. That was the best.
Okay, maybe not in every case, but it's a broad rule of thumb I've found to
hold true.
My point is that maybe it's not 2000AD that undergoes these changes, maybe
it's the individual readers. You know, they grow up, get interested in
girls, cars, work . . . suddenly there isn't room for that comic any more.
Maybe it doesn't address the issues that concern that reader. Maybe they
just plain outgrow it. I certainly went through a period when I stopped
reading comics. Out of college, I got a job on Starburst magazine, sold my
Marvel collection to put a downpayment on a house. I was in "real"
magazines, what did I want with comics. It wasn't until I joined 2000ADS
that I started trying to catch up on what I'd missed,: Moore's Swamp Thing,
Miller's Daredevil, etc. Notice, all script driven strips. Because that's my
interest. Image comics leave me scratching my head. Give me a well-written
story every time.
My point is that we're all different, all at different stages in our lives.
2000 AD doesn't really change that much, other than the natural ebb and flow
I've outlined about. It's us that change.
> I can remember the things I liked certainly <Zenith>, but the rest of
> it has faded from memory to a large extent. That in itself is a
> criticism.
> Sorry , but I'm not going to rake through a box of back Progs to
> revive those memories.... even if I could.
Cop out, Simon. But it proves my point. It's your memory that tells you
those stories are crap. Valid criticism requires evaluation. I wouldn't
review the movie Citizen Kane based on my memory of that last time I saw it.
I'd run the video again and review it while it was fresh in my mind.
Anything less is just ... arse-feathers, really!
Alan.
Nigel Poll
wrote:
>I reckon Diggle & MacKenzie meet up, get drunk, bitch about 2000ad's
>bosses, then go off and form a website consultancy company, hiring
>people from the newsgroup.
>
Considering the amount of money thrown at anything with "dot" in the
title by venture capitalists, excuse me - 'internet incubators'
(winner of the "Let's Pretend We're Not Money-grasping Capitalists By
Giving Ourselves A Wanky Title" award) - capital will be absolutely no
problem. In fact, when Messrs Diggle & MacKenzie tell them that the
company will be composed of graphic designers, artists, editors and
assorted 'sequential art' professionals they'll probably be killed in
the rush.
Nigel
CMoS
Gary Gray wrote:
> HTML editor ..
> And considering my coding isn't that hot
Erh one doesn't consider HTML coding - its a markup language
- just like going through a document with different coloured
highlighter pens.
--
Regards,
CMoS
CMoS
si_spurrier wrote:
>
> -Si [Hiding under his swivel-chair as the n/g hots-up]
How many wheels 4 or 5 ?
--
Regards,
CMoS
CMoS
>
> Apparently there IS a form of shorthand punctuation which does all this...
> that's where the smileys come in I think...but none of us know it so it's
> rendered impotent.
> If anyone DOES know, then share please.
Oh no blantant plug time again
http://spaghoops.com/cgi-bin/smileys.pl
--
Regards,
CMoS
Nigel Poll
<al...@thestoryworks.com> wrote:
<sodding-great-snip)
>
>My point is that maybe it's not 2000AD that undergoes these changes, maybe
>it's the individual readers. You know, they grow up, get interested in
>girls, cars, work . . . suddenly there isn't room for that comic any more.
... then they marry the girl, buy a bigger car to put the kids in,
lose interest in work, discover this NG, buy up all the old progs they
can find and before you know it they're readers again!
Or is that just me?
Nigel
si_spurrier
20,000 in two weeks? Hoo-eee.
Then again, whilst I wouldn't try to review Citizen Kane
without watching it through again, I could certainly tell you
from memory whethere I thought it was good or bad. I wouldn't
neccesarilly be able to explain *why*, but my overall impression
of it would still be valid. I think.
Interesting.
Simon Fraser
<al...@thestoryworks.com> wrote:
>
>
>> From: co...@nope.com (Simon Fraser)
>> Organization: Chello Austria
>> Newsgroups: alt.comics.2000ad
>> Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 21:54:15 GMT
>> Subject: Re: Definition of a hit comic?
>> My point was that you as editor and assistant editor bear a very
>> substantial responsibility for why or why not your comic will sell.
>> You were quite happy to blame the management of Fleetway for the
>> disastrous drop in the comics sales, but not willing to accept any
>> responsibility yourself.
>>
>> Sorry but I find that a bit rich.
>
>There's a couple of points here that you are making, but probably not
>realising it.
>
>The first here is that as we weren't doing anything substantially different
>in the weeks leading up to the change in distribution than we were after or
>even substantially before, then I think it's safe to say that the 20K
>(20,000, fer chissakes!) drop in sales over two to three issues was almost
>entirely due to the radical change in distribution methods.
>
>Anyone want to argue with that?
Nope, but then we've already gone over that. 20,000 sales is a hefty
loss, but that doesn't take us from Prog 512 selling about 98,000
per week. to the 55,000 it sold when you left.
I'm willing to accept that there are many factors involved, but not
that the editior is a passive victim of circumstance.
>
>Okay, the other thing is that 2000AD is like a living organism. The editor
>doesn't really control 2000AD. Andy will back me up on this. Any editor who
>thinks he has absolute mastery over a title is fooling himself. You are
>entirely at the whim of the creators.
Hmmm.
>
>Indulge me. Play a game for a moment. Give me the ideal line-up (with
>creators) for the perfect run of 2000AD. Here, I'll start you off.
>
>Dredd by Wagner & Bisley
>Slaine by Mills and Fabry
>ABC Warriors by Mills and Walker
>Zenith by Grant and Yeowell
>and because we have to have one crap story ... Luke Kirby by McKenzie and
>Ridgway.
I liked Summer Magic, it wasn't crap :-)
I'm not sure why it was in 2000AD though, apart from the fact that one
of the editors wrote it.
>
>Now I'll tell you why that won't happen. Ever.
>
>Reality check. 2000AD can't afford Bisley. You might get him for a one-off
>or a special, but forget about a ten prog run of Dredd. Simon doesn't want
>to do a ten week run. That's thirty weeks of his life, full time, devoted to
>working ten hours a day for £200 - £250 per page. That's shit money for him.
>He wouldn't do it (prove me wrong, Simon B - heh! heh!)
To be honest I think 2000AD was not well served by Mr Bisleys efforts
or his influence. I felt it was a wrong turn in the progress of the
comic. There are a lot of artists I would rather see drawing Dredd,
who can work to deadlines and aren't going to need that kind of money
to do it.
<Fabry ditto>
Kev Walker makes an appearance now and again, but these painter guys
seem to have little stamina for long story runs. Understandably.
>
>Zenith - Grant's earning way too much money writing DC's top selling comic,
>JLA. Okay he's giving it up now, but not to write Zenith. Last time I spoke
>to Grant about Zenith he felt he had nothing more to say there. So supposing
>Grant could have his arm twisted into doing another, it'd be - by Grant's
>definition - second rate Zenith.
Fine, it's always been a 2000AD strong point that it would let
potentially valuable creative assets stop dead if the original
creators decided to finish with them. Mind you most if not all the
attempts at revival by other creators have been pretty damned poor, so
I suppose there is a reason for that.
>
>Luke Kirby - we'll leave aside the fact that Fleetway tried to bully and
>blackmail me into signing a document that assigned all rights, not just the
>rights in their standard contract (which I wasn't sent and didn't sign), to
>them for no money. The reason that Ridgway didn't draw the third series was
>that it took him over eighteen months to draw the second. That's a lot of
>full colour artwork to carry in stock. I was told, find a faster artist.
>While I was disappointed with the art on series three, Parkhouse and
>Abadziz, both really good alone, didn't mesh. The fourth series was my
>favourite and was pure Parkhouse. The man's criminally under-used.
Again we come back to the problems of holding large quantities of
expensive full colour artwork.
>
>It's very easy to sit in your living room and say, "bring back Bisley!" But
>this is reality, Bisley has a life. He likes to spend time with his wife and
>children. 2000AD doesn't own him. Nor do you.
Nor would I want to.
>
>The other thing is that 2000AD is like a supertanker. The way the stories
>are created and the way your budget is supervised, it's not possible to
>change direction substantially inside six months. Once the book became
>colour, we lost the luxury of being able to respond quickly to the market.
>We had to lead the market or go under. I think we did very well. I think
>most of the decisions we made were the right ones.
The supertanker point is a good one, the current run on Slaine seems
to be proving your point there. However even supertankers have
rudders, the Captain of the ship doesn't just sit at the bridge for 10
years and shout 'Sorry it's not my fault' while the ship plows through
the shipping lanes unguided.
>
>Okay, within those parameters, every editor does his best. No editor sets
>out to put crap stories in the paper. It's not a personal vendetta to get at
>you :-)
I should hope not, that would be wierd.
>There are periods of 2000AD history that I thought were weak. But once I
>worked there, I realised that there reasons, usually beyond the power of the
>editor to change. So while I might have my differences with Pat Mills, I
>understood that during the first year of the paper, he was constrained by
>management to use Spanish artists because Fleetway had bulk deals with
>several Spanish agencies and got the art a lot cheaper that way.
I have no problem with Spanish artists if they are good. Indeed there
a quite a few French,Spanis and Italian artists out there who put our
humble scribblings to shame.
>
>Not your problem? Too right, it's not. You just want a good comic. "Don't
>bring me problems, bring me solutions!"
I like to think that it is at least partly my problem. If 2000AD is
going to be the last gasp of the British comics industry then we all
have some responsibility to keep it breathing.
>
>
>But overall, a great run on the comic. But Steve didn't have the US offering
>his contributors better money and better strips to write/draw. He didn't
>suffer from the brain drain that Richard and I had to contend with.
Yes, this was a very unfortunate factor, but then this is always going
to be a problem, not just for financial reasons, but for writers
especially the 2000AD format is very restrictive.
To an extent having a free flow of artists and writers is a good
thing, there is no way that 2000AD or the british comics market can
keep the relatively large number of artists and writers that exist in
Britain gainfully employed all the time. So if they cross the Atlantic
periodically then they can always have the option to come back , as
seems to be happening now from time to time.
It also means that 2000AD has to be developing new talent constantly,
which is a healthy thing.
>
>You didn't like the late 80s? Well, over the years I've talked to a lot of
>readers. I don't mean folk like those in this newsgroup. People here are
>focussed, concerned with the way the comic runs, know the names of the
>backroom boys (like me!). The readers just like Dredd, or Slaine and maybe
>at a stretch, "Bizleee". And the thing I notice is that everyone has a
>different Golden Age of 2000AD.
Fair point, though it has to be said that with 25,000 sales now, the
average reader is likely to be much more clued up on the backroom boys
than ever before.
I'd be surious to know how many people regularly read this group
incidentally.
>
>Asimov is reputed to have said, "The Golden Age of science fiction is ten!"
>With 2000AD, I say its Golden Age is fifteen. The 2000 AD that came out when
>you were fifteen. That was the best.
>
>Okay, maybe not in every case, but it's a broad rule of thumb I've found to
>hold true.
I think in the case of a lot of the people here, they actually have
pretty good 2000AD collections and the idea of a 'golden Age' becomes
rather fuzzy when you can reread large chunks of continuity again and
again over the years. My golden Age would be around 1987, not because
the comic was up to much , but rather that was the year I started
religeously buying the Titan reprint books ( I could get them in
bookshops, but the comic was nowhere to be found )
The 'golden age' discussion does arise now and again here, along with
the best story/ worst story type debate. I think it would be safe for
me to say that the period currently under discussion does not fare
well.
>My point is that maybe it's not 2000AD that undergoes these changes, maybe
>it's the individual readers. You know, they grow up, get interested in
>girls, cars, work . . . suddenly there isn't room for that comic any more.
>Maybe it doesn't address the issues that concern that reader. Maybe they
>just plain outgrow it. I certainly went through a period when I stopped
>reading comics. Out of college, I got a job on Starburst magazine, sold my
>Marvel collection to put a downpayment on a house. I was in "real"
>magazines, what did I want with comics. It wasn't until I joined 2000ADS
>that I started trying to catch up on what I'd missed,: Moore's Swamp Thing,
>Miller's Daredevil, etc. Notice, all script driven strips. Because that's my
>interest. Image comics leave me scratching my head. Give me a well-written
>story every time.
I doubt that there are many long term readers here who haven't let
their faith lapse from time to time, that's entirely normal. The
problem arises when there seems to be no effort made to make the comic
approachable to new readers, it becomes a sweaty locker room where
only the initiated may enter. So many of the covers around this time
seemed to shout ' Old boys club, KEEP OUT!'
This is where I find your hand wringing most troubling to be honest.
>
>My point is that we're all different, all at different stages in our lives.
>2000 AD doesn't really change that much, other than the natural ebb and flow
>I've outlined about. It's us that change.
No.
I just don't accept that.
I think Andys current Nerve Centre makes that point as well.
If the waters are ebbing and flowing around you then build a Dam or
start a landfill project, sitting on a deckchair ain't gonna do it.
>> Sorry , but I'm not going to rake through a box of back Progs to
>> revive those memories.... even if I could.
>
>Cop out, Simon. But it proves my point. It's your memory that tells you
>those stories are crap. Valid criticism requires evaluation. I wouldn't
>review the movie Citizen Kane based on my memory of that last time I saw it.
>I'd run the video again and review it while it was fresh in my mind.
>Anything less is just ... arse-feathers, really!
Yes, but I'm not doing a resoned literary criticism, just becasue this
is a text based medium doesn't mean I need to apply any journalistic
rigour to it. :-)
I choose to take Usenet as a giant pub , where I bring my own beer,
but the company is good and we are all talking about something that we
are interested in, nay passionate about! This discussion is not really
resolvable as you quite understandably don't want to believe that your
tenure on 2000AD was a failure. You have opened up the subject however
and provided us all with some good juicy facts and figures though, so
it was very worthwhile.
What I find most interesting however is this passivity I'm reading
between your lines, that somehow you were at the mercy of the fates.
Perhaps you were, as I think you were the assistant editor for most of
the time under Richard Burton, maybe I should be flaming Burton
instead.
I will cop out of trawling through the back issues, mostly because I
don't have time and they are 2000 miles away, but also because I
reckon that my critical faculties were pretty reasonable 10 years ago,
I have no reason to doubt the opinions I came to then. Though I have
on occasion gone back and reread things that I did like and have been
pleasantly surprised how well they did stand up. Maybe Pat Mills'
editorship veered towards the cheesy and the crass, but it had
tremendous vitality. A quality which I don't remember much of from the
late 80's onwards.
Surely it was that energy that was the 2000AD secret ingredient, it's
legacy from Action. Wasn't that what it was all about?
Anyway, I gotta work now.
Cheers
Andrew Ness
>
>Indulge me. Play a game for a moment. Give me the ideal line-up (with
>creators) for the perfect run of 2000AD. Here, I'll start you off.
>
>Dredd by Wagner & Bisley
>Slaine by Mills and Fabry
>ABC Warriors by Mills and Walker
>Zenith by Grant and Yeowell
>and because we have to have one crap story ... Luke Kirby by McKenzie and
>Ridgway.
>
You _are_ out of touch Mr McKenzie... :P
Oddly enough, Bisley's return does not seem to be the holy grail for most of
this group. Most of us, I suspect, would find the prospect of Fabry's return
much more enticing than Biz. But he costs almost as much.
As for yer 2 Mills strips, I suspect the concensus is going to be against
that at the moment.
But this does give us all the chance to play fantasy line-ups...
Dredd by Wagner and Flint (B&W)
Halo Jones bk 4 by Moore and Gibson,
Strontium Dog by Wagner and Ezquerra,
Dante by Morrison and Fraser
and, because cheap doesn't always mean crap...
a Future Shock by that new bloke (whatsisname?) and Jason Brashill.
Of course, your reasons still stand, and getting Alan Moore back would take
more than hard cash...
--
Nessy
http://www.nite-flite.co.uk
2500NiteFli...@onelist.com
(To reply switch 'junk' to 'Nessy')
si_spurrier
Fact is: It did. Now it seems to be dragging itself very
slowly back up again.
Perhaps rather than filling the n/g with "It's *your*
fault"/"It's not *my* fault!" type posts, couldn't we stick to
the rather cliched but ultimately useful axiom: what's done is
done. Spilt milk, and all that. Look to the future, etc etc...
Okay. I'm done, here. If anyone needs me I'll be up on the
moral highground.
Simon Fraser
<sjsNO...@wellington-college.berks.sch.uk.invalid> wrote:
>Does it really matter *why* the thing lost half its audience?
Yes.
>Fact is: It did. Now it seems to be dragging itself very
>slowly back up again.
Very very slowly.
>
> Perhaps rather than filling the n/g with "It's *your*
>fault"/"It's not *my* fault!" type posts, couldn't we stick to
>the rather cliched but ultimately useful axiom: what's done is
>done. Spilt milk, and all that. Look to the future, etc etc...
We could, but then that would be rather dull wouldn't it.
Beside the fact that we really need to know what 2000AD is and isn't
to get any idea how to dig it out of it's current hole. To understand
that we need to look at the bad and the good of it's past.
We need to know where it went wrong.
>
> Okay. I'm done, here. If anyone needs me I'll be up on the
>moral highground.
In what way is trying to dismiss the argument 'moral'?
Just curious
Doctor Zachary
Grant Goggans <gmsl...@hhhoootttmmmaaaiiilll.com> wrote in message
news:394d0604....@news.mindspring.com...
> After all, 2000 AD's still selling 20,000+ a week. What are all those
> other stacks and stacks of varied and numerous British comics on
> newstand shelves selling? I mean, we're down to Sonic the Comic and
> Viz and Beano and... what, exactly? I'm not sure, but there ain't as
> many as there were even as late as 1987.
Even Sonic is practically dead. They're going all-reprint next month
"because Pokemon is reducing its sales", according to the distributors. More
likely that once they started putting reprints in there was no way of
getting its readers back...
-STCnet
Grant Goggans
<ju...@nite-flite.co.uk> wrote:
>Oddly enough, Bisley's return does not seem to be the holy grail for most of
>this group. Most of us, I suspect, would find the prospect of Fabry's return
>much more enticing than Biz. But he costs almost as much.
>As for yer 2 Mills strips, I suspect the concensus is going to be against
>that at the moment.
>But this does give us all the chance to play fantasy line-ups...
>
>Dredd by Wagner and Flint (B&W)
>Halo Jones bk 4 by Moore and Gibson,
>Strontium Dog by Wagner and Ezquerra,
>Dante by Morrison and Fraser
>and, because cheap doesn't always mean crap...
>a Future Shock by that new bloke (whatsisname?) and Jason Brashill.
Hmmmmmmm. How about:
Dredd by Wagner and Bolland
Dante by Morrison and Fraser
Indigo Prime by Smith and someone who hasn't drawn it yet
Robo-Hunter by Wagner and Rian Hughes
ABC Warriors by someone who isn't Pat Mills and Flint
Grant Goggans
<al...@thestoryworks.com> wrote:
>The other thing is that 2000AD is like a supertanker. The way the stories
>are created and the way your budget is supervised, it's not possible to
>change direction substantially inside six months. Once the book became
>colour, we lost the luxury of being able to respond quickly to the market.
>We had to lead the market or go under. I think we did very well. I think
>most of the decisions we made were the right ones.
I like this metaphor. I want to play with it.
I just wanted to say that, as a Tharg, I would no doubt fuck up
horribly. Really, really, book-cancellingly badly, in all likelihood.
But I'll say this. One glimpse at a completed Michael Fleisher script
for episode one of "Golden Fox Rebellion" and that supertanker would
get its direction changed inside thirty seconds. Because that
supertanker was full of shit and it wrecked and totally ruined what
was left of Rogue Trooper when it ran aground. Which, basically, was
when I read the big dialogue bubble on page one that said "Ho, ho!
Whacked 'im!"
(I'd also commission a run of Indigo Prime, mind...)
Gary Gray
for me HTML is as close as I get to (or want to get to) coding. Highlighter
pens cheeky get, we are all good at different things, know what a LIBOR loan
is ?
Gary Gray
CMoS <colin...@rdel.co.uk> wrote in message
news:394F26B2...@rdel.co.uk...
CMoS
> Highlighter pens cheeky get
The analogy was aimed at demystifying HTML.
It really is that simple anyone can do it.
FUD keeps designers in the money whilst artists who have
real talent should be in the driving seat.
> know what a LIBOR loan
Erh I do know that the 3 Month LIBOR Forecast for Jul 2000
has a Correlation Coefficient of 0.95.
--
Regards,
CMoS
Adrian Bamforth
"Doctor Zachary" <z...@emulationzone.orgREMOVETHISTEXT> wrote in message
news:8intgg$32f$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> Even Sonic is practically dead. They're going all-reprint next month
> "because Pokemon is reducing its sales", according to the distributors.
More
> likely that once they started putting reprints in there was no way of
> getting its readers back...
If you ask me it's pretty surprising that a fad comic has lasted this long.
We'll see if Pokemon lasts 10 years.
ADE
Jim Campbell
al...@thestoryworks.com wrote on 20/6/00 7:56 am:
> Cop out, Simon. But it proves my point. It's your memory that tells you
> those stories are crap. Valid criticism requires evaluation. I wouldn't
> review the movie Citizen Kane based on my memory of that last time I saw it.
> I'd run the video again and review it while it was fresh in my mind.
> Anything less is just ... arse-feathers, really!
Dry Run. Harlem Heroes (version 2). Trash. Robo-Hunter (version 2). Mother
Earth. Rogue Trooper. Soul Gun Whatever. Just about every Dredd story
written by Ennis, Morrison or Millar ...
Are you trying to tell me I just imagined that all those were utter shite,
Alan?
And I came up with that list in 15 seconds without actually referring to any
of the progs. I'm sure if I waded through the back issues I could cheerfully
fill a side of A4 with the list of material that really wasn't fit for
print.
It was neither price rises nor distribution problems that stopped me from
reading 2000ad having been a devotee since prog 104 (and having scoured back
issue boxes to get the collection back to about prog 40-something). It was
the fact that week after week the comic was awash with dreary, badly
plotted, badly characterised shit like the stories I listed above.
Mr Fraser is right: you do bear a share of responsibility if you
commissioned even one of the above-mentioned strips and to suggest that you
had no option other than commissioning rubbish because you couldn't get the
people you really wanted is laughable.
Cheers
Jim
Gary Gray
LIBOR stand for then ? But seriously you are right, but if we were in their
position we would do the same wouldn't we ? Keep the price up to make some
money for ourselves ?
Gary Gray
CMoS <colin...@rdel.co.uk> wrote in message
news:394FA440...@rdel.co.uk...
Gary Gray
Alan McKenzie <al...@thestoryworks.com> wrote in message
news:B574E258.5E9%al...@thestoryworks.com...
>
>
Lots of interesting stuff in that post Alan, oh I do love a good discussion
on the ng. My opinion is that 2000ad should always move forward. Personally
I dont care if a creator buggers off of 2000ad and never comes back, one of
the most vital and vibrant things about 2000ad is that there is always some
creator just waiting in the wings just gnashing at the bit to get their
teeth into a 2000ad story. OK some of them may be shite but there is always
glitter amongst the dross. And personally I couldnt care less if Biz came
back, he was responsible for a lot of the shite that the copyists came out
with after him. Well he was indirectly I suppose.
Gary Gray
Clam
>
> Dry Run. Harlem Heroes (version 2). Trash. Robo-Hunter (version 2). Mother
> Earth. Rogue Trooper. Soul Gun Whatever. Just about every Dredd story
> written by Ennis, Morrison or Millar ...
>
> Are you trying to tell me I just imagined that all those were utter shite,
> Alan?
>
Well, I hate to be an apologist...but doesn't the fact that just 'bout
everything was so-so prehaps suggest that there *was* a dearth of
creative talent...as Al may have suggested. And that even the regulars
failed to produce the goods at this time? I can see both sides here...
MIKED
Gary Gray
2000ad we need to understand, you say to them there is this great comic that
comes out every week, what would it take for you to read that comic ? Now I
am not saying throw out everything we hold dear in the mag, but are we too
insular, should we go more mainstream ? Or More Punk ? Or Funny ? Hell I
dunno but it would be interesting to see what the man in the street would
want from a comic.
Gary Gray
Simon Fraser <co...@nope.com> wrote in message
news:394f6086...@195.34.133.35...
Alan McKenzie
Simon,
> I liked Summer Magic, it wasn't crap :-)
> I'm not sure why it was in 2000AD though, apart from the fact that one
> of the editors wrote it.
Yes, that was strange. I originally wrote it for Eagle. I showed it to
Richard for a reality check and he offered to buy it for 2000AD. I'm still
not convinced today it belonged in 2000AD.
> This is where I find your hand wringing most troubling to be honest.
I wish I knew what you are talking about. "Hand-wringing"? I don't see any
hand-wringing. I see exasperation because you seem to have no willingness to
understand that an editor doesn't operate in a vacuum.
The other major hole in your argument is that if editorial content is the
major factor, then why didn't 2000AD bounce back up to say oh let's be
genrous, 75,000 when I left?
> This discussion is not really
> resolvable as you quite understandably don't want to believe that your
> tenure on 2000AD was a failure.
You forgot to add "in my opinion". Even so, that's a pretty shitty thing to
say.
> quality which I don't remember much of from the
> late 80's onwards.
> Surely it was that energy that was the 2000AD secret ingredient, it's
> legacy from Action. Wasn't that what it was all about?
No argument there. What I can't accept is that 2000AD from 1987 onwards (is
that right, you still haven't defined the "crap" period) had no energy.
Alan.
Alan McKenzie
> Yes, there was good stuff, but when it hit the revival stuff things did go
> down the pan quite a bit, Michael Fleischer was the biggest mistake 2000ad
> ever had, and I reckon he was the major reason for turning shite. God I
> still hate everyting he did with Rogue Trooper ever.
>
Yet on paper Mike Fleischer was a good bet. His Spectre stories are still
brilliant. But I agree, his work on 2000AD was embarrassing. I did my best
to save it, but you can't polish a turd.
Alan.
Grant Goggans
<jim.ca...@lineone.net> wrote:
>Dry Run. Harlem Heroes (version 2). Trash. Robo-Hunter (version 2). Mother
>Earth. Rogue Trooper. Soul Gun Whatever. Just about every Dredd story
>written by Ennis, Morrison or Millar ...
>
>Are you trying to tell me I just imagined that all those were utter shite,
>Alan?
>
>of the progs. I'm sure if I waded through the back issues I could cheerfully
>fill a side of A4 with the list of material that really wasn't fit for
>print.
From your list, you see the rot of poor new material as starting in
March 1990 (Harlem Heroes II) and running as late as Dec. 1993? I
just wanted to make sure I'm clear on that. (Unless you add Gibbons'
War Machine as part of the Rogue Trooper problem -- which I don't --,
which puts it a little earlier.)
Well, allowing for at least a few differences of opinion (Ennis wrote
a few good Dredds, even if Morrison and Millar didn't, and I know of
at least two other people besides me who thought Soul Gun was
fantastic {and if I've read Dave Stone's defences of Shaky right, he
seems to have liked it a bit too}), it wasn't all *that* bad during
that period. You still had Armoured Gideon, Hewligan, Time Flies,
Revere, Tales from Beyond Science, Button Man, Firekind and Canon
Fodder starting within that period. Plus a lot of earlier thrills
like Zenith and Indigo Prime.
And a lot of what you didn't mention was at least readable.
But to be fair, you forgot to mention Junker and Wire Heads and Kola
Kommandos and Chronos Carnival and Mean Arena II, none of which are
easily defended.
I'm sorry to learn so many of you dropped 2kad during the early 90s.
I'll happily admit and agree that it was the book's leanest time, but
I also think that there was always something pretty damn good in it.
Even if some of those issues between 712-717 had only Anderson:
Engram, which I didn't even like all that much, and four pieces of
shit.
Apparently still believing in Santa Claus...
Alan McKenzie
> From: Jim Campbell <jim.ca...@lineone.net>
> Organization: RemarQ http://www.remarQ.com
> Newsgroups: alt.comics.2000ad
> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 18:37:54 +0000
> Subject: Re: Definition of a hit comic?
>
> in article B574E258.5E9%al...@thestoryworks.com, Alan McKenzie at
> al...@thestoryworks.com wrote on 20/6/00 7:56 am:
>
>
>> Cop out, Simon. But it proves my point. It's your memory that tells you
>> those stories are crap. Valid criticism requires evaluation. I wouldn't
>> review the movie Citizen Kane based on my memory of that last time I saw it.
>> I'd run the video again and review it while it was fresh in my mind.
>> Anything less is just ... arse-feathers, really!
>
> Dry Run. Harlem Heroes (version 2). Trash. Robo-Hunter (version 2). Mother
> Earth. Rogue Trooper. Soul Gun Whatever. Just about every Dredd story
> written by Ennis, Morrison or Millar ...
>
> Are you trying to tell me I just imagined that all those were utter shite,
> Alan?
Nope, don't recall ever posting that idea.
> And I came up with that list in 15 seconds without actually referring to any
> of the progs. I'm sure if I waded through the back issues I could cheerfully
> fill a side of A4 with the list of material that really wasn't fit for
> print.
>
> It was neither price rises nor distribution problems that stopped me from
> reading 2000ad having been a devotee since prog 104 (and having scoured back
> issue boxes to get the collection back to about prog 40-something). It was
> the fact that week after week the comic was awash with dreary, badly
> plotted, badly characterised shit like the stories I listed above.
> Mr Fraser is right: you do bear a share of responsibility if you
> commissioned even one of the above-mentioned strips
What if I did, and what if I didn't? No one has a track record unblemished
by the odd screw-up. Let's take record companies. Is every record a top ten
hit? Nope. Okay, let's take DC comics. Every book they put out solid gold?
Course not. All right here's a foolproof one. Is every picture Spielberg
directs fantastic? Oops, 1941.
Don't be a plonker, Jim. You talk like 2000AD *owes* you five perfect strips
every week. Here's a reality check for you. 2000AD owes you nothing. I owe
you nothing. Not even an explanation.
> and to suggest that you
> had no option other than commissioning rubbish because you couldn't get the
> people you really wanted is laughable.
Where did I say that? Don't put your words in my posts then tear me off a
strip for it.
Oh and for the record. I didn't commission any of those strips. You may
think you know what you're talking about, but when you come right down to it
... you don't.
Cheers right back atcha!
Alan.
Alan McKenzie
> From: gmsl...@hhhoootttmmmaaaiiilll.com (Grant Goggans)
> Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
> Reply-To: geeemme...@athotmaildot.com
> Newsgroups: alt.comics.2000ad
> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 19:31:15 GMT
> Subject: Re: Definition of a hit comic?
>
> On Tue, 20 Jun 2000 18:37:54 +0000, Jim Campbell
> <jim.ca...@lineone.net> wrote:
>> Dry Run. Harlem Heroes (version 2). Trash. Robo-Hunter (version 2). Mother
>> Earth. Rogue Trooper. Soul Gun Whatever. Just about every Dredd story
>> written by Ennis, Morrison or Millar ...
>>
>> Are you trying to tell me I just imagined that all those were utter shite,
>> Alan?
>>
>> And I came up with that list in 15 seconds without actually referring to any
>> of the progs. I'm sure if I waded through the back issues I could cheerfully
>> fill a side of A4 with the list of material that really wasn't fit for
>> print.
>
> From your list, you see the rot of poor new material as starting in
> March 1990 (Harlem Heroes II) and running as late as Dec. 1993? I
> just wanted to make sure I'm clear on that.
See? Now that's a different period to the one which irks Simon Fraser so
much.
>
> Well, allowing for at least a few differences of opinion (Ennis wrote
> a few good Dredds, even if Morrison and Millar didn't
Dunno, I thought Inferno was pretty good. Though it was really a parody of
Wagner's Dredd, it had some very good stuff in it. And the story certainly
inspired Carlos to turn in some of his best artwork ever.
> and I know of
> at least two other people besides me who thought Soul Gun was
> fantastic {and if I've read Dave Stone's defences of Shaky right, he
> seems to have liked it a bit too})
See, now I think Shakey's a god. But some people just don't see it. Their
loss, I guess.
> it wasn't all *that* bad during
> that period. You still had Armoured Gideon, Hewligan, Time Flies,
> Revere, Tales from Beyond Science, Button Man, Firekind and Canon
> Fodder starting within that period. Plus a lot of earlier thrills
> like Zenith and Indigo Prime.
>
> And a lot of what you didn't mention was at least readable.
> But to be fair, you forgot to mention Junker and Wire Heads and Kola
> Kommandos and Chronos Carnival and Mean Arena II, none of which are
> easily defended?
Who'd want to? And I wrote Mean Arena II! I quite liked Kola Kommandos, but
then I think Parkhouse is, pound for pound, just about the best creator in
the business today. I would say KK was Steve's best work, oh no, but even
Parky on a bad day is better than most on a good one.
Alan.
Andrew Ness
>Don't be a plonker, Jim. You talk like 2000AD *owes* you five perfect
strips
>every week. Here's a reality check for you. 2000AD owes you nothing. I owe
>you nothing. Not even an explanation.
>
Which would appear to be the attitude that led 2k down the pan in the first
place. If you don't care enough about the readership to offer them no more
than 'nothing' its little wonder you broke the sales drop record.
I've no wish to start bashing you, as an editor of 2000AD, you are someone
whom I have a lot of respect for, but comments like the above seem very
similar in tone to those your successor attributes to Richard Burton. If you
weren't even striving towards some idea of perfection, if in fact you felt
that paying customers deserved 'nothing' from their comic, then I for one
feel disillusioned and saddened. You've been getting a bit of a rough ride
here, and so I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt, but you aren't
making it easy.
(I feel a bit like that kid in Tale of the Dead Man...)
I've yet to see how Andy will handle the task of Tharghood, he could be the
last person to hold that post, or the one to revive the title dramatically
(the way things are going the chances are he will fulfil the second, or fail
and result in the first) but I do think that he cares, passionately, about
the comic, and what goes in it. He might commission strips that I hate by
people I think shouldn't be in the profession. (It will be a first if he
doesn't) That isn't the point. From what I know of Andy, he is a
perfectionist, and his goal will be those five perfect strips, week in, week
out.
Gary Gray
anything , the only person who owes anyone anything is themselves but unless
you are striving for perfection then what is the bloody point. So both
opinions are correct arent they ?
Gary Gray
Andrew Ness <ju...@nite-flite.co.uk> wrote in message
news:PVR35.5264$fw6.1...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com...
julian...@virgin.net
<al...@thestoryworks.com> wrote:
>Grant, you make some good points.
>
>> From: gmsl...@hhhoootttmmmaaaiiilll.com (Grant Goggans)
>> Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
>> Reply-To: geeemme...@athotmaildot.com
>> Newsgroups: alt.comics.2000ad
>> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 19:31:15 GMT
>> Subject: Re: Definition of a hit comic?
>>
>> and I know of
>> at least two other people besides me who thought Soul Gun was
>> fantastic {and if I've read Dave Stone's defences of Shaky right, he
>> seems to have liked it a bit too})
>
>See, now I think Shakey's a god. But some people just don't see it. Their
>loss, I guess.
Shaky Kane succeds with me only in that he provokes a reaction of some
kind. Unfortunately, it's not the kind he'd prefer... I will concede
that he's better than Marc Wigmore, to quote a more recent example,
but my praise couldn't be fainter....
>> it wasn't all *that* bad during
>> that period. You still had Armoured Gideon, Hewligan, Time Flies,
>> Revere, Tales from Beyond Science, Button Man, Firekind and Canon
>> Fodder starting within that period. Plus a lot of earlier thrills
>> like Zenith and Indigo Prime.
>>
>> And a lot of what you didn't mention was at least readable.
>
>> But to be fair, you forgot to mention Junker and Wire Heads and Kola
>> Kommandos and Chronos Carnival and Mean Arena II, none of which are
>> easily defended?
>
>Who'd want to? And I wrote Mean Arena II! I quite liked Kola Kommandos, but
>then I think Parkhouse is, pound for pound, just about the best creator in
>the business today. I would say KK was Steve's best work, oh no, but even
>Parky on a bad day is better than most on a good one.
True enough. Nice to see him getting some work for Vertigo every now
and again. To be honest, I can't remember a blessed thing about Kola
Kommandos other than that illo used to promote the strip. That's
pretty damning to me, I guess... Either that, or another sign of old
age. Memory like a... thing with holes in, y'know?
Jay
T Det
> dunno but it would be interesting to see what the man in the street would
> want from a comic.
From what I can gather from the average rack in the newsagents and comic shops...
Tits. More tits. Suggestions of full-frontal nudity. Ripped men.
Spandex. Leather jackets. Guns. Really big guns. FBG. Lots of explosions
and revenge. Big fat revenge fantasies. Big fat tits. Lara Croft.
Claudia Schiffer. Fast cars.
All drawn by Todd McFarlane. Or any of those Image clones...
Oh wait, thats the average 14 year old boy...
As to what the WOMAN in the street would want from a comic... as Toyah
once sang... "It'th a mythterwee, it'th a mythterwee...."
Oh wait... no sailors. Women don't want sailors. As Mr. Smithers once
said.. "women and seamen don't go together..."
Tim.
T Det
> We'll see if Pokemon lasts 10 years.
>
> ADE
Here in the 'States its massive. Disgustingly so. When Pokemon hit
America, they renamed a town for a month! Something like Pokemontana or
something- you get the idea. Big tour around in a Pokemon-themed 747.
Plus its based around an aimless trading-cards game. And they've been
good for over 10 years, also!
As for shelf life, they're STILL making Transformers cartoons some 15
years on... I think to go for the Gen X'ers and the Digimon kids. "It
transforms.. like a Digimon..."
(ftr- I prefer Digimon to Pokemon... there seems to be an actual aim to
the cartoon... and better character drawing- Pokemon looks like it was
drawn with a cheap jumbo-marker)
But on the whole, themed comics are bad. Who'd buy "Hula Hoop", the
comic? Or "Rollerskate! For Boys!"...
Ask me? 2000ad should comission 4 short-run (10-12 episodes) strips
based on big-selling computer games. If it had done that with Quake 1 or
even Quake 2 or Duke Nuke'em it'd be a still-running winner that not
even Michael Fleischer or Gerry Finley-Day could *really* fuck up...
Tim.
T Det
> > I liked Summer Magic, it wasn't crap :-)
> > I'm not sure why it was in 2000AD though, apart from the fact that one
> > of the editors wrote it.
>
> Yes, that was strange. I originally wrote it for Eagle. I showed it to
> Richard for a reality check and he offered to buy it for 2000AD. I'm still
> not convinced today it belonged in 2000AD.
Ever considered sueing a certain author for a series that seems
suspiciously similar? Just a thought... *g* When anyone blusters on
about those bloody books I can sit back and say "seen it. seen it...rip off!"
I also genuinely liked Luke Kirby's adventures, and Id've like to see
where they were headed.. there was so much foreshadowing and portent
involved... even now I want to see what the pay-off would be...
Tim.
T Det
it before- esp. on Dredd. But lame story. "Eco-warriors are go" is not a
good idea, unless it involves real people- like at the end of Jamie
Delano's run on Hellblazer, where it got seriously funky...!
Dry Run- looked like something Heavy Metal wouldn't touch.
Soul Gun- I love Shaky's art, but in many ways it didn't hold up to
2000ad's style. He's so much better on more darker, dense work- like in
Deadline. I'd love to see that stuff reprinted!
Rogue Trooper- Dave Gibbons good. Fleischer bad but stupidly enjoyable.
Amoured Gideon- I hated it. Hated the art, especially.
Time Flies- While I love Phillip Bond's art, stupid story.
Hewligan- Forgettable, self indulgent.
Trash- See Mother Earth.
Beyond Science- What was wrong with this? Rian Hughes is a brilliant
comic artist and is wasted as a designer... (but not paid near so well...)
Firekind- like a lot of Smiths work- it needs to be read in one sitting,
not weekly bites, and not with episodes and pages printed out of order!
Wire Heads- crap. Crappity crap crap. Unreadable.
Kola Commandoes- I liked KC. It was self-contained, and had a beginning,
middle and end.
Mean Arena II- Quoi? Moi? Merde! I loved the original, with Eric
Bradbury and steve Dillon's art... Of course, now that Dillon started
drawing with felt-tip pens to give him more time in the pub... ffrt.
This was crap that stuck to its heel.
The Summer Offensive- Big, stupid, offensive, glorious fun that
slaughtered the heroes. Be honest, it was written for 14 year old, not
you. If 2000ad had STAYED that offensive, it probably would have picked
up more younger readers... but lost more older ones. It was a
self-contained hype-fest... it got featured in the Guardian- "Big Dave,
stupid or satire?"
Thinking about it...
What 2000ad should do is to publish seperate comic books that it feels
aren't *quite* suited... like Luke Kirby, Firekind, and so on, as
DC-sized one-offs. Not a huge expansion of trade but an increase of
shelf-presence and a crack at the US market.
Tim.
Alan McKenzie
Hello? We're not reading off the same page here ...
Chrissakes this is like talking to infants.
> From: "Andrew Ness" <ju...@nite-flite.co.uk>
> Organization: Virgin Net Usenet Service
> Newsgroups: alt.comics.2000ad
> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 23:00:19 +0100
> Subject: Re: Definition of a hit comic?
>
> Alan McKenzie wrote in message ...
>
>> Don't be a plonker, Jim. You talk like 2000AD *owes* you five perfect
> strips
>> every week. Here's a reality check for you. 2000AD owes you nothing. I owe
>> you nothing. Not even an explanation.
>>
>
> Which would appear to be the attitude that led 2k down the pan in the first
> place. If you don't care enough about the readership to offer them no more
> than 'nothing' its little wonder you broke the sales drop record.
Stupid remark. I stand by what I said to Jim. I don't owe him (or you)
anything. I DON'T WORK THERE ANY MORE! I've moved on. Or at least that was
the plan. Now I'm getting drawn into defending stuff that happened ten years
ago. Who cares?
> I've no wish to start bashing you, as an editor of 2000AD, you are someone
> whom I have a lot of respect for, but comments like the above seem very
> similar in tone to those your successor attributes to Richard Burton. If you
> weren't even striving towards some idea of perfection, if in fact you felt
> that paying customers deserved 'nothing' from their comic, then I for one
> feel disillusioned and saddened. You've been getting a bit of a rough ride
> here, and so I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt, but you aren't
> making it easy.
See, this is what Richard meant when he said to Andy Diggle, "It's only a
fucking comic." It is! What Richard meant by that, because some people have
no sense of perspective, is that compared to what's happening in Ruanda, or
to sort of stuff the NSPCC have to deal with every day, 2000 AD isn't very
important. It's good to be passionate about what you do, but it's not
important enough to mess up your life over. We're not doctors so we don't
need to work thirty hour shifts.
Okay, 2000AD is important to you. But get some perspective. The difference
between us is I didn't read 2000AD before I worked on it, and I haven't
since I left. That's not to say I didn't care. But it was never my religion
and I was never a monk. And that's what Richard meant.
If you worked on 2000AD and you revered it the way you seem to now, you'd go
down with nervous exhaustion in a year.
> (I feel a bit like that kid in Tale of the Dead Man...)
> I've yet to see how Andy will handle the task of Tharghood, he could be the
> last person to hold that post, or the one to revive the title dramatically
> (the way things are going the chances are he will fulfil the second, or fail
> and result in the first) but I do think that he cares, passionately, about
> the comic, and what goes in it. He might commission strips that I hate by
> people I think shouldn't be in the profession. (It will be a first if he
> doesn't) That isn't the point. From what I know of Andy, he is a
> perfectionist, and his goal will be those five perfect strips, week in, week
> out.
Nice goal. Forget about it. You expect Andy to ruin his health and possibly
his life just so you can have some nice comics to read for twenty minutes
every week? My advice to Andy is the same as Richard's.
Alan.
Alan McKenzie
> From: "Gary Gray" <gary...@clara.co.uk>
> Newsgroups: alt.comics.2000ad
> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 23:53:36 +0100
> Subject: Re: Definition of a hit comic?
>
> Hmmm, reckon Alan has maybe meant two things here, yes 2000ad doesnt owe us
> anything , the only person who owes anyone anything is themselves
In the larger scheme of things that's exactly right. One of the things
studying martial arts for the past sixteen years has taught me that at the
end, when push comes to shove, it's just you. There's no one to help you.
You take responsibility for your own well-being.
Phew!
But in this context, I think there is a prevailing mindset that somehow,
just because someone's bought 2000AD for five years or whatever, Andy,
Richard or even Alan McKenzie, OWES them something. When I said 2000AD (and
I) owe Jim (or anyone else) nothing, I mean that he paid his £1, he got a
comic. That's the end of the transaction. If he doesn't like the comic,
don't pay the pound. In the meantime, the editors strive to make a good
comic because it's a business and making a good product helps with sales.
It's not the whole story, but do your best because that's all you can do.
Alan
> Andrew Ness <ju...@nite-flite.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:PVR35.5264$fw6.1...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com...
>> Alan McKenzie wrote in message ...
>>
>>> Don't be a plonker, Jim. You talk like 2000AD *owes* you five perfect
>> strips
>>> every week. Here's a reality check for you. 2000AD owes you nothing. I
> owe
>>> you nothing. Not even an explanation.
>>>
>>
>> Which would appear to be the attitude that led 2k down the pan in the
> first
>> place. If you don't care enough about the readership to offer them no more
>> than 'nothing' its little wonder you broke the sales drop record.
>> I've no wish to start bashing you, as an editor of 2000AD, you are someone
>> whom I have a lot of respect for, but comments like the above seem very
>> similar in tone to those your successor attributes to Richard Burton. If
> you
>> weren't even striving towards some idea of perfection, if in fact you felt
>> that paying customers deserved 'nothing' from their comic, then I for one
>> feel disillusioned and saddened. You've been getting a bit of a rough ride
>> here, and so I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt, but you aren't
>> making it easy.
>> (I feel a bit like that kid in Tale of the Dead Man...)
>> I've yet to see how Andy will handle the task of Tharghood, he could be
> the
>> last person to hold that post, or the one to revive the title dramatically
>> (the way things are going the chances are he will fulfil the second, or
> fail
>> and result in the first) but I do think that he cares, passionately, about
>> the comic, and what goes in it. He might commission strips that I hate by
>> people I think shouldn't be in the profession. (It will be a first if he
>> doesn't) That isn't the point. From what I know of Andy, he is a
>> perfectionist, and his goal will be those five perfect strips, week in,
> week
>> out.
Alan McKenzie
> From: T Det <detac...@hotmail.com>
> Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net
> Reply-To: detac...@hotmail.com
> Newsgroups: alt.comics.2000ad
> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 00:29:14 GMT
> Subject: Re: Definition of a hit comic?
>
Thanks for your interest. When I worked on 2000AD I really did think I had a
job for life <g> so I fully intended to have Luke grow up, go through
adolescence, with its attendant hormonal storms - not Kevin and Perry go
Magic, but something that the older eaders could look at and go, "Oh yes, I
remember those feelings. I tried to give hints that Luke was noticing girls
in more than a brotherly way, and yes, it was all leading up to something
really big.
Maybe I'll get the chance to take the story there one day. I still like the
characters enough to want to try. Can't say the same for Mean Arena 2 or RAM
Raiders :-)
Alan.
Jim Campbell
al...@thestoryworks.com wrote on 20/6/00 7:31 pm:
>> Are you trying to tell me I just imagined that all those were utter shite,
>> Alan?
>
> Nope, don't recall ever posting that idea.
Not exactly ... you _did_ say that Simon couldn't defintively say that this
strip or that strip, or one particular period in 2000ad's history, was
dreadful if he didn't go back and check, because people's memories were
unreliable. I remember all the strips I listed and they were f***ing awful.
> Don't be a plonker, Jim. You talk like 2000AD *owes* you five perfect strips
> every week. Here's a reality check for you. 2000AD owes you nothing. I owe
> you nothing. Not even an explanation.
And right _there_ Mr McKenzie is the crux of it. You bemoan the fact that
2000ad's readership spiralled downwards under your editorial tenure and
then, when a reader tells you _exactly_ why they stopped reading you respond
like that.
You fucking well _did_ owe me something, because I was paying your bloody
wages by buying the comic every week. I wasn't asking for five perfect
strips every week - just _one_ might have kept me buying but in the end I
had to express my dismay in the only way I knew how: I stopped buying.
>> and to suggest that you
>> had no option other than commissioning rubbish because you couldn't get the
>> people you really wanted is laughable.
>
> Where did I say that? Don't put your words in my posts then tear me off a
> strip for it.
Oh ... I'm sorry, did I mis-read your wish list Alan? You listed a whole
bunch of creative combos and then gave reasons why they couldn't be enticed
to work for 2000ad, or why 2000ad couldn't afford them ...
Amusingly, you put Kev Walker on your wish-list and I know for a fact that a
proposal of Kev's languished in your in-tray without so much as an
acknowledgment for over a year ...
> Oh and for the record. I didn't commission any of those strips. You may
> think you know what you're talking about, but when you come right down to it
> ... you don't.
Well, people have since added to what I conceded was a pretty perfunctory
list ... for some reason I have also just recalled the literary gem that was
RAM Raiders ... did you have nothing to do with that, either?
Cheers
Jim
T Det
> In the larger scheme of things that's exactly right. One of the things
> studying martial arts for the past sixteen years has taught me that at the
> end, when push comes to shove, it's just you. There's no one to help you.
> You take responsibility for your own well-being.
>
Out of curiosity, and as someone who has studied 1 form of Karate, and 2
of Kung Fu, while I know that Steve Dillon and Garth Ennis both practise
Wun-Ma Gui-Ness, ans Simon Harrison teaches Wing Chun Kung Fu... whats
your poison?
Tim.
The Phantom
Grant Goggans wrote in message <394d0299....@news.mindspring.com>...
>And everybody buy two copies of Tooth. (I already do, but that's only
>to guarantee I get the one, thanks to Diamond Distribution being so
>stupid.)
I always buy 2 copies and have done for at least 12 years, and I know of
other people who do the same. Is this widespread and if it is, does it mean
that sales of 20,000ish copies means there are only 10,000ish readers?
The Phantom.
Andrew Ness
first
>> place. If you don't care enough about the readership to offer them no
more
>> than 'nothing' its little wonder you broke the sales drop record.
>
>anything. I DON'T WORK THERE ANY MORE! I've moved on. Or at least that was
>the plan. Now I'm getting drawn into defending stuff that happened ten
years
>ago. Who cares?
>
Fair enough, that was a cheap shot. Sorry. But if you really don't care, why
do you keep responding?
>
>See, this is what Richard meant when he said to Andy Diggle, "It's only a
>fucking comic." It is! What Richard meant by that, because some people have
>no sense of perspective, is that compared to what's happening in Ruanda, or
>to sort of stuff the NSPCC have to deal with every day, 2000 AD isn't very
>important. It's good to be passionate about what you do, but it's not
>important enough to mess up your life over. We're not doctors so we don't
>need to work thirty hour shifts.
That isn't quite what I meant. If I can just slip into analogy here, the job
of editor is much like the job of a football manager. What they do, in the
grand scheme of things may not matter one iota compared to the issues you
list above. That doesn't stop people making themselves into virtual slaves
to the club, going grey before their time and generally risking their mental
well-being. No-one is forcing them to do it. Managers can walk away from
jobs and still get paid six figure sums for months afterwards. They do it
for one reason, they love it. The way Andy seems to love 2000AD. And the way
you, by your own admission, didn't.
Yes, the people on this group are fans. That shouldn't surprise you. And in
their own way, a lot of them are just as passionate as football fans.
Perhaps if you'd had access to a similar forum in your time in charge, you
might have some more appreciation of what that means.
>> From what I know of Andy, he is a
>> perfectionist, and his goal will be those five perfect strips, week in,
week
>> out.
>
>Nice goal. Forget about it. You expect Andy to ruin his health and possibly
>his life just so you can have some nice comics to read for twenty minutes
>every week? My advice to Andy is the same as Richard's.
>
I don't expect Andy to do any more than his job. I don't fully appreciate
what that involves, you do, but whenever you're asked about it, you say 'I
don't need to defend myself' or 'I don't owe you anything' or you blame the
powers that be. Just think about the impression that makes.
As for me personally, I'm a writer, trying to break into the industry. I
have a vested interest in seeing that 2000AD doesn't go down the pan as it's
the only place to have published my work so far. There are others around
here in a similar situation. As a result, we know how high Andy and David
Bishop's standards are. All we have to go on from you is your record, much
of which is not held in the highest regard.
I'm not some drooling saddo fan-boy whose life will come to an end if 2000AD
gets cancelled, but I don't want it to happen. If any of us can learn from
the past, then that's helpful, and a lot of your comments have been real
eye-openers.
To return to the football analogy, if Graeme Souness was to go into the
Liverpool FC newsgroup and start going on about how the chairman, board,
bank, referees and team bus-driver were responsible for his taking the team
to their lowest ebb for thirty years... Well, set up a hotmail account for
yourself under his name and go in there, try it...