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Open letter from Spider Robinson

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Ted Powell

unread,
Sep 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/17/97
to

I just received the message below from Spider. Although I'm in the
middle of setting up some computers here, I figured this was important
enough that once I get this posting done I'm going to HTML-ize the
letter to put on the web site (http://psg.com/~ted/spider/).
I hope you'll consider it important too.

[--Spider's text begins--]

I'd appreciate it a great deal if you would post, forward, link,
and/or otherwise disseminate the following screed to all those at
alt.callahans, #callahansIRC, the Compuserve SFLIT Forum, AOL's
Callahan's Forum, and/or any related sites you can dig up or
swing up out de jungle:

--------------------------------------------------------------

"Squeegee That Monitor For You, Sir?"
AN OPEN LETTER TO ALT.CALLAHANS AND RELATED SITES
FROM SPIDER ROBINSON

My toast tonight is, "To writers--may the saints add preservatives to them.
And FAST!"

!!!SMASH!!!

This is something I swore I would never do.

But I'm too worried not to. The horse I ride on--the publishing industry,
never exactly a thoroughbred--has just begun to stumble and cough up blood.
Suddenly I need your help too badly NOT to pull on your coat-tail.

You alt.callahans folk and related accomplices owe me nothing. You have
made YOUR Callahan's Place all by yourselves, with no help from me, and I
think it is in many ways a better, finer creation than my own--one in its
way more wonderful than I COULD HAVE imagined. I'm not trying to call in
some nonexistent marker--just asking for a minute of your time. I promise
I'll play you out with a song when I'm done, at least, like the last time
we spoke. Okay?

Let me try and give you an idea of HOW worried I am:

I have recently given serious thought to what else I might do for a living,
besides write books.

No, really. I have even...God, this is hard...I have even contemplated
honest work. Of some kind. There must be some trade you can pick up at
age forty-eight...right?

As concise a statement of the problem as I can provide:

The publishing business has, in slow stages over the twenty-five years I've
been writing, essentially been captured by the same kind of vampires that
ruined Hollywood. Freebooters, parasites, looters...oh, come out and say
it: SHAREHOLDERS, and their chieftains and goons...who want only to milk
the industry--ANY industry--for the maximum possible short-term return, and
don't mind at ALL if they bleed it dead in the process, so long as they
personally get sufficient advance warning of the crunch. People who--for
reasons I will NEVER comprehend--actually WANT to be Very Rich. (People,
in other words, who either don't know or don't care whether they themselves
are happy or not...as long as they have all the marbles.)

They have the same swing-for-the-fences mentality that is screwing up
cinema. All we want here are zillion-dollar superstar blockbusters...and a
few "little" pictures in which to groom the superstars of tomorrow.
Nothing in between; no second features. In like manner, many of the people
making decisions in publishing today would like to have a list consisting
of nothing but Clancys and Parkers...and a handful of talented newcomers
who might be the NEXT Clancy or Parker, but meanwhile are willing to work
for first-novel prices. (I hasten to add that I mean no slightest
disrespect to either Tom Clancy or Robert Parker; I picked them because I
respect them both highly, and buy their new books on sight.)

This isn't the editors and publishers themselves I'm talking about, either.
Many if not most of them love good books, even now. But their policies
are being made for them by the conglomerates that swallowed them up in the
last decade or so. Men and women who got into the business for the
fundamental purpose of publishing (at least some) books they were proud of,
are now working for people whose ONLY guiding principle is the mantra,
"Place yourself between the talent and the money." The ultimate,
industry-shaping decisions are being made, as in Hollywood, by people who
don't give a toasted DAMN about the PRODUCT, much less the producer-slaves.
What they want is simple: HUGE profits, NOW. Blockbusters...and good first
novels, or hacks who are willing to work REAL cheap.

What they DON'T much want anymore are MID-LIST writers. Quirky scribblers.
Ones with faithful but not mammoth audiences. Ones difficult to sum up to
a salesman in Paducah with a one-sentence soundbite. Ones PEOPLE magazine
isn't talking about. Ones whose books haven't been a sma-shit (no, that's
not misspelled) movie yet. Ones whose works not only reward, but REQUIRE a
high-school education and some imagination. Ones who sell well...but not
VERY well--or not all in one big lump, but over time.

They'll keep a few around, for show...but only if they're willing to accept
a little serious downsizing.

I'm not the only one squawking. At least one colleague recently circulated
an urgent open letter similar to this one, triggered when he learned that
after over 25 years of award-winning publishing, he can literally no longer
sell a book in New York--even to editors who like his work. The sales
figures for his last book (and ONLY his last book) just weren't good
enough...

Upon reading this, I suddenly became very interested in things I'd never
paid any attention to, like my own sales figures and print runs. I was
fairly cheered by what few numbers I could find, lurking under concealment
on assorted "royalty statements"; my printruns were routinely well over
100,000 copies, always sold well enough to call for at least a second
printing, always hit the Locus sf Best Seller list. The rent always got
paid--often on time. But lately there has been all sorts of Bad News in
the publishing biz, talk of "cutbacks," so I resolved to keep a weather eye
out, or peeled, or whatever it is you're supposed to do with a weather
eye...

Guess what I just found out? Tor, citing "industry retrenchment," only
printed up less than ONE QUARTER AS MANY copies as usual of the latest
Callahan paperback, CALLAHAN'S LEGACY.

That's right, a book which carries in it printed acknowledgment of all
60,000+ of you alt.callahans members out there plus all the related forums,
channels and groups was not printed in sufficient numbers for HALF of you
to buy a copy, should you be so inclined.

They will only go back to press if most of those sell out. Those pitifully
few copies, like ALL paperbacks, have a maximum shelf-life of about a
month. Tops. In some venues, a week. (If they GET to the shelf at
all...)

So here at last is what I'm saying: if you were by any chance thinking of
picking up a copy of Spider Robinson's new one -- or the new one by ANY
author you care about who isn't already a blockbuster superstar -- for the
love of God, PLEASE DON'T PUT IT OFF! This chance may not come again. If
it's not on the shelf, ORDER it....FAST, before they pulp the returns and
unshipped copies...

Times have changed. If you love books, you must now start to change your
thinking, and come to see them as precious, evanescent fireflies, which
flicker briefly and then are no more. If you do not stay alert for them,
and grab them on sight, they will probably never be reprinted: the concept
of backlist is on its way to the ash-heap. All of us who put words in a
row for your enjoyment are in serious no-shit danger, and we need your help
and support. I know *I* do.

How much? Let me give you a clue: I LEARNED the above information about my
most recent print-run while trying to get an explanation for why the
proposal I had submitted to Tor for my NEXT book about Jake Stonebender and
his family and friends (working title: CALLAHAN'S KEY) had, after months of
puzzling silence, just brought back an offer of...60 percent of what they
paid me for the last one. (In devalued dollars.)

Cousins, I was just barely making it at the OLD rates. Until a month ago,
when a miracle occurred, I was composing my books--all my work--on a
computer which I just saw advertised in MacWorld for US$49 plus shipping.
I can't TAKE a 40% pay cut and pay my rent. And at 48, I just haven't got
the stamina to go back on the road as a musician; it's a young man's game.

The ONLY lever I can hope to apply is to show a LARGE sell-through for that
miserable first printing...and the next (dear God let there BE a
next)...and the next...and hope that eventually one of those illiterate but
NOT innumerate bean-counters way up on the corporate ladder of unknown
strangers who tell the publishers what to do will see numbers he or she
likes, and decide that there just might be room for me somewhere on one of
the bottom rungs of the Star section. "Knock that cat a living wage..."
rather than "Throw a statue where that cat blew..." as Lord Buckley might
have it. THEN I'll be able to write you all the next Callahan book...

(And again, I'm not trying to put a knock on Tor. They've showed strong
commitment to the Callahan series; this must be the best they can do for
me, the way things are these days.)

Christmas will be here all too soon. Why not get your shopping done
early...down at the bookstore? They happen to have, or should have, THREE
Spider Robinson paperbacks on the shelves at once, just now--another of
those wizardly publisher decisions--containing a total of SIX complete
Spider Robinson novels between their six covers. (See my website for
details-- http://psg.com/~ted/spider) A Sixpack of Spider (and
Jeanne)--for under US$22/CAN$30!

And trust me: they won't be there long...

(The combined ad and promo for all three volumes, from two different
publishers, has been far less than I'm used to seeing for a single novel in
the past. I guess they now want to wait and see how the books sell, before
deciding if it's worth advertising them...see what I mean? Typical
Hollywood "thinking.")


As Homer and Jethro used to say at the end of every number, "Thanks for
your sympathy." I appreciate your listening, and appreciate any help you
may be able to throw my way. So--just like the last time I wrote to all
you folks--I'm going to play you out with a song, to thank you for letting
me jingle my cup.

I was sitting here in my office one night 'round midnight, last month,
pecking away, and Jeanne was two open doors away, invisible to me, lying on
the couch in the livingroom reading a Zen book...and all of a sudden for no
particular reason I looked up and smiled and called out, softly, "I'm aware
of you."

And she purred, and stretched on the couch, and called back, "That's a song
title." So when I got dressed again and got back to the computer, I wrote
it, and by the next day I had the tune right.

Slow ballad, attempted Ray Charles flavor, key of A. It goes:

I'm Aware of You, Jeanne
(c) 1997 by Spider Robinson; all rights reserved

I'm aware of you
When I'm busy at my work and you are humming in the parlor
I'm aware of you
We don't have to say a word, I never need any reminder
I'm aware of you
And I care for you
I will be there for you

('cause)

You're aware of me
You give me what I need most times before I know I need it
You're aware of me
I don't have to slay a dragon just to come to your attention
You're aware of me
And you care for me
You've been there for me

And this house is alive when you're home
When you're gone, it's a pleasant hotel
I don't ask if you're home as I come through the door
I can tell
I can tell...

('cause)

I'm aware of you
While my mind is chasing characters across the Galaxy
I am aware of you
When I'm rapt at my computer playing poker with myself
I am aware of you
And I care for you
I know you know I do...
You know I know you do...
'Cause I'm aware of you


-------------------------------------------------------------


THANKS FOR LISTENING. PLEASE FORWARD. TELL YOUR FRIENDS. HAUNT YOUR
BOOKSTORE REGULARLY, *ESPECIALLY* YOUR INDEPENDENT OR SPECIALTY BOOKSTORE.
ASK THEM TO PHONE YOU WHEN A NEW BOOK BY YOUR FAVORITE AUTHOR COMES OUT;
THEY'LL BE *GLAD* TO TAKE A LIST. IF YOU DON'T HAVE SUCH A STORE NEARBY,
GET AMAZON.COM TO AUTOMATICALLY SEND YOU YOUR FAVORITE AUTHORS' NEW BOOKS
ON RELEASE; THEY'RE SET UP TO LET YOU FILE A LIST.

"'PEOPLE WHO READ BOOKS'...NEXT ON GERALDO..."
IT'S NOT FUCKING FUNNY.

Well, okay, it IS...but it's a funny DISASTER, for our whole species.

And certainly for

--Spider Robinson
Vancouver, BC
15 September 1997

[--Spider's text ends--]

--
t...@psg.com t...@wimsey.com http://psg.com/~ted/ (Ted Powell)
Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.
--Philip K. Dick

John Barnstead

unread,
Sep 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/17/97
to

Ted Powell (t...@wimsey.com) wrote:

: I just received the message below from Spider. Although I'm in the


: middle of setting up some computers here, I figured this was important
: enough that once I get this posting done I'm going to HTML-ize the
: letter to put on the web site (http://psg.com/~ted/spider/).
: I hope you'll consider it important too.

Pernicious the Musquodoboit Harbour Farm Cat and his faithful amanuensis
and general factotum Barnstead, sometime denizens of alt.callahans,
apologize if any of the Patronage-at-Large receive duplicates of this
followup --


Spider Robinson wrote:

: Christmas will be here all too soon. Why not get your shopping done


: early...down at the bookstore? They happen to have, or should have, THREE
: Spider Robinson paperbacks on the shelves at once, just now--another of
: those wizardly publisher decisions--containing a total of SIX complete
: Spider Robinson novels between their six covers. (See my website for
: details-- http://psg.com/~ted/spider) A Sixpack of Spider (and
: Jeanne)--for under US$22/CAN$30!

: And trust me: they won't be there long...

The Patronage-at-Large, after hearing Our Patron's impassioned plea and
the GREAT new song, suddenly catches the sound of a low-flying B-52 bomber
emanating from somewhere up in the rafters. Its collective head turns
upward to see none other than PERNICIOUS THE MUSQUODOBOIT HARBOUR FARM CAT
drifting down, suspended from the increasingly-tangled lines of a
golden parachute. Alas, about sixty feet above the Virtual Dance FLoor
(tm), the silks of the parachute give out, and the redoubtable feline
plummets Placewards to land in an ungainly heap at the feet of one of the
Goodwenches. He scrambles to his paws, grins fatuously at the pleasant
view he generally has when paying homage to a Goodwench, and quotes John
Brunner in an aside to Mike: "The Leap Shook Up -- ME, at least, Mike... I
believe I shall require a Wedgewood saucer of 32% cream for my present
purr-poses. Can you oblige me?" Mike grins and passes the requested
potable to Pernicious, who turns and goes to the line.

"Folks, you know that Barnstead and I have had to duck out for the time
being to get some work done in the Real World (tm) -- teaching a zillion
Russian students is his job, gracing the world with my presence is mine.
We both swore that we wouldn't return to Callahan's for love or money (and
you would be SURPRISED at the offers we received...) until next spring
when things quiet down a bit for us. We didn't think there was ANYTHING
that could get us back here... but, true to the Callahanian tradition,
just when you think that something is UTTERLY IMPOSSIBLE, Spider comes
along and drops ANOTHER kitchen sink on you...

"My faithful amanuensis and general factotum and I feel great sympathy for
what Spider and his publishers are going through. Something analogous is
happening in the world of the universities, which are becoming ever more
subordinated to the dictates of business, and where enrolments are now the
name of the game -- "What? Russian has fewer students than French and
Spanish? Then wouldn't it make MORE SENSE (read: "bring in more bucks')
to devote the money we spend on Russian to opening more sections of first
year Spanish? Think about it -- and next week let's take a look at that
quantum mechanics course: should we REALLY be devoting our scarce
resources to something that is of interest to such a SMALL MINORITY of
students?..."

"Be that as it may, this is ONE Musquodoboit Harbour Farm Cat who knows
what HE is getting for all his friends and relations for Christmas this
year -- and he is going to do his shopping TODAY. I recollect with a
bit of shame all the SECOND-HAND copies of Spider's early books I have
bought over the last little while, copies which didn't provide Spider with
any of the royalties (and believe me, they don't amount to a whole heck of
a lot even when paid...) which he would receive when his books are
purchased new. And I remember ANOTHER little contract which may need to
be re-negotiated -- Spider, you may recollect that at WolfCon a few years
back you granted my faithful amanuensis and general factotum permission to
distribute to all his classes that scene in "MindKiller" where Norman
proposes a novel grading scheme, free of charge. Now, you and I
BOTH know that the only reason you did it was that it seemed like the
EASIEST way to get rid of the worst chump groupie in the world, who had
just FORCED you to autograph all twenty odd (some QUITE odd, but that's
neither here nor there...) of your books for him. Believe me, he's been
exploiting you shamelessly ever since. With MY purr-suasive powers
applied to his left ear-lobe, I think I can assure you of an appropriate
emolument PLUS back royalties PLUS interest on those, compounded
semi-annually... and I will do it ALL for ALMOST as little as your agent
charges you... My people will be in touch with your people, but meet me in
the back room after I finish this toast and we'll high-five the Big
Picture...

"Where was I? Oh, yes -- the solution Spider proposes is fine as a
bandaid (tm), but something BETTER is going to have to be come up with to
give the Baddies in the Corporate Jungle their comeuppance. I think there
is a hint of it in the story Spider published on the Web a while back in
electronic form. What is needed (and maybe we ought to hide this
paragraph from the dear folks -- and they ARE dear -- at Baen Books and
elsewhere) is a way of cutting out the middlefolx ALTOGETHER -- a direct
link between author and audience, as plainly practical as the tin cup
Spider mentions rattling -- or the pause the storyteller in the
marketplace makes to ensure a shower of coins to encourage him to reveal
how the story turns out. I would much rather be sending Spider and his
family 90% of what I spend to read his stories than the -- God, after
taxes and agent's cut and all the thousand cuts that publishers apply,
does it ever even APPROACH -- 10%, maybe, that he gets now... Think on
it, dear friends... and DO something about it...

I've gone on too long, but then, I'm Pernicious the Musquodoboit Harbour
Farm Cat, and everyone here KNOWS how pompous and long-winded I can get...
So, A TOAST:

TO SPIDER ROBINSON,
TO HIS ART,

AND.........

TO FILLING THAT TIN CUP!!!!


And with that, Pernicious sends his Wedgewood saucer of 32% cream sailing
over the Penrose tiles of the Hearth to smash against the parabolic back
wall of the Fireplace, where it drips sizzling downwards onto a thick pile
of paper rubles left there by a certain Nastasya Filipovna -- but that's
ANOTHER story... In the uproar which follows his toast, Pernicious the
Musquodoboit Harbour Farm Cat slips unnoticed out the patched oak door and
into the night.

Heidi Bond

unread,
Sep 18, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/18/97
to

There is a noise from the ladder. A young woman descends; her dark hair
is an a ponytail, and she nervously glances at the crowd that is
gathered. Clearing her throat, she quietly whispers something to Mike,
and is handed in return a glass of orange juice. She fidgets and sips
her drink for a while, then talks again. Her voice is low, and she
pauses between words, as if to collect her spirit.

"I've been sitting on the roof for a while, just listening to you talk
and getting joy from a place where joy is abundant. I couldn't help
hear Spider's plea for help, and tonight I'm raiding the bookstore for
everyone of his books that I can find. My heart just about broke
hearing him--" she cuts off, and gulps tears. When she continues, her
voice is a little louder, a little stronger. "You know, the only people
who can save Callahan's are right here. I think that most of us would
be willing to buy or subscribe to a Spider story service, but I think he
needs more help than that."
She pauses and looks down at her half-finished juice. She takes a sip,
and then continues. "What are you and I going to do to help him? I
think we can agree that buying his books and writing the publishers is
only going to do so much--we can write away, but us, the consumers, will
never have the sway that the stockholders do, and I agree that buying
the books is only a temporary solution. Allowing us to directly
purchase books and stories from him is, I think, the only way that we
can guarantee that Spider will continue to bless us. So I think this:
I think Spider needs to REALLY get into virtual publishing, and he needs
to do it fast. And I also don't think he can do it without our help.
Here is what I think Spider needs to set up an Internet site to sell his
products. Let me know what needs to be added."
She pauses, and holds up a finger. "He needs people who will volunteer
time to help him set up the site--make it look professional, give it
professional scripts, make it completely automated so no time is
required at all." As she talks, she ticks off items on her fingers.
"He needs to have an estimate of how much money he can expect to make so
he can know whether it will be enough for him to live on. He needs to
have some sort of credit card transaction server that is secure and that
will automatically send money into his account--we want this to be easy
and simple, not a hassel for him at all. After all, we want him writing
books not being a clerk in a virtual store--I think. He could set
something up where we could buy individual stories and download them in
a variety of formats, or we could have a monthly or yearly subscription,
and so on. It might be nice for him to have a domain name.
"We can provide him with all of that. We can set up the site in its
entirety--with his approval of course--and even, if enough of us are
willing, donate the money to get this started. After that, it's all
him, of course."
She stops, looks at the floor, and continues.
"I hope you don't think I'm being presumptuous, since I've never really
been down here before. But Callahan's is very dear to me, and I
wouldn't lose it for anything. What I would like to do is conduct an
informal survey to answer some of these questions. If you could please
take the time to contact me in the strangely telepathic form known as
e-mail with the answers to the following questions:
1. Are you willing to donate time to build a site for Spider? What can
you do? How much time do you have?
2. Spider's going to need starting capital to get this site rolling.
He may even need some money to cover the bills. Are you willing to
donate money to him? If so, how much?
3. Would you buy a story off the Net? How much would you pay for it?
4. What would you be willing to pay for a month's subscription to
Spider? A year's?

"E-mail me at: bo...@nospam.cs.fsu.edu (remove the nospam from the
address).
"Please expand on these ideas! We can save Spider; we can expand this
simple idea to the other great authors out there who are in similar
troubles." She stops, finishes her orange juice. Then she tosses the
glass into the fireplace. "To writers--I don't know about saints
preserving them, but we might be able to."

Joseph Abbott

unread,
Sep 19, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/19/97
to

Is this real? If so its kinda pathetic. Begging people on the internet
to buy your book?

I'm sorry, but no one, especially artists, are owed a living. You have
to earn it. It never ceases to amaze me how authors can dis popular
books as trash. If they are just simple-minded trash, then why not
write one and stop begging like a drunk on the street corner.

Joseph Abbott

"I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without
hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because
they'd never expect it." - Deep Thoughts
__

John Bartol

unread,
Sep 19, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/19/97
to

In article <342215e0...@news.lynx.bc.ca>,

Joseph Abbott <jabbott@{remove}lynx.bc.ca> wrote:
>
>
>Is this real? If so its kinda pathetic. Begging people on the internet
>to buy your book?

I am just about positive it's real... and I don't know about it being
pathetic. Yes, the request was made to buy his book (which many people
will do) but also to support other authors, any authors.

Spider has been writing some very enjoyable books for quite a long
time and has developed quite a following. If the account he has given
is true, it does not bode well for those authors who do have a significant
following, but not a following which can throw a book to the top of the
bestseller lists in no time flat.

>I'm sorry, but no one, especially artists, are owed a living. You have
>to earn it. It never ceases to amaze me how authors can dis popular
>books as trash. If they are just simple-minded trash, then why not
>write one and stop begging like a drunk on the street corner.

I didn't see any evidence of 'dis'ing of popular books. The only 'dis'ing
that may have been there is of the publishing giants looking for fast
returns for their investors.

I actually have little doubt that Spider could bang out a 'popular' book
but I appreciate the fact that he writes consistently good quality books
which while not bestsellers are good value.

Personally, I have a weird tendency to look in areas other than the 'Top
Ten' rack at the bookseller for the books I buy. While a shop of only
'fast sellers' would be quick to look through, a lot of quality stuff
would be missing.


--
"There is a huge difference between disliking somebody - maybe even disliking
them a lot - and actually shooting them, strangling them, dragging them
____________ through the fields and setting their house on fire. It was a
John Bartol \___ difference which kept the vast majority of the population
jb...@zadall.com\ alive from day to day." [DGHDA by Douglas Adams]


Christopher M. Palmer

unread,
Sep 19, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/19/97
to


John Bartol <jb...@zadall.com> wrote in article
<5vt69p$6fa$1...@zadallv.zadall.com>...


> In article <342215e0...@news.lynx.bc.ca>,
> Joseph Abbott <jabbott@{remove}lynx.bc.ca> wrote:
> >
> >
> >Is this real? If so its kinda pathetic. Begging people on the internet
> >to buy your book?
>
> I am just about positive it's real... and I don't know about it being
> pathetic. Yes, the request was made to buy his book (which many people
> will do) but also to support other authors, any authors.

I read recently that the number of people who read the bestselling book of
the year is less than the number of people who watch a single episode of
the lowest rated sitcom of the year. I have also heard that less than 15%
of the US population have *ever* read a book that was not an assigned
reading and school (and there are quite a few that didn't even read them).

So, the "reading public" is a small minority (at least in America -- I
suspect similar numbers in other countries). Since books are not published
out of altruism by big pocketed publishers who love a good read, the
equation is simple: if you like to read, buy more books.

I can here you now saying, "But I do buy at least a book a week!". How
many of the books you buy are paperback? How many are from used book
stores, yard sales, or library sales? How many books do you read from the
library?

I *love* used book stores, libraries, library sales, and yard sales, but
the fact is, the authors and publishers aren't making a cent from them.
Therefore, the fact the some Spider Robinson paperback was read and loved
by 10 people serially sharing the same copy only equals 1 copy sold (and,
probably, a few cents at most to Spider).

TANSTAAFL -- If you want a rich and rewarding array of books and authors
available at your local bookstore, you should make a concious effort to buy
at least a few new books (and new hardbacks even) and support the market.

It would be nice to dream of electronic distribution and the web giving
authors a place to sell books directly and make money, but it hasn't
happened yet. I also suspect that the people who say, "I would pay $3 to
download a new book by an author I like" would also be the ones e-mailing a
copy to their friends or posting around the 'net trying to find a free
copy.


John Palmer

unread,
Sep 19, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/19/97
to

On Fri, 19 Sep 1997 06:08:19 GMT, jabbott@{remove}lynx.bc.ca (Joseph
Abbott) wrote:

>
>Is this real? If so its kinda pathetic. Begging people on the internet
>to buy your book?

No, telling people who WANT to buy the book *ANYWAY* to try to
buy it *SOON*. 'S'matter? Can't read a whole posting and remember
what it's about?

>I'm sorry, but no one, especially artists, are owed a living.

Really? Why "especially" commercial artists (which authors
are), when they are specifically creating new products with little
drain on resources? I don't see an author as being "especially" not
being owed a living more than any other inventor/small businessbeing.


>You have
>to earn it.

Which is precisely what Spider Robinson wants to do.

> It never ceases to amaze me how authors can dis popular
>books as trash.

Interesting non-sequiter, since Spider claimed to buy certain
"popular books" on sight in the very post you seem to be responding
to.

> If they are just simple-minded trash, then why not
>write one and stop begging like a drunk on the street corner.

If you really think it's easy to write good trash, write one
yourself and come back and tell us how easy it really is.


A-Couple-A-Nerds Computer Consulting

unread,
Sep 19, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/19/97
to

On 19 Sep 1997 06:32:25 GMT, jb...@zadall.com (John Bartol) wrote:

>In article <342215e0...@news.lynx.bc.ca>,


>Joseph Abbott <jabbott@{remove}lynx.bc.ca> wrote:
>>
>>Is this real? If so its kinda pathetic. Begging people on the internet
>>to buy your book?
>

>I am just about positive it's real... and I don't know about it being
>pathetic. Yes, the request was made to buy his book (which many people
>will do) but also to support other authors, any authors.

Is it pathetic that garbage collectors were on strike for a month ?
Isn't that begging ?... No it's not, and it isn't pathetic. This is
not the first author I've heard complain about the publishing industry
in the last year... We are talking award winning authors will not be
published because previous print runs didn't sell well enough...

>I didn't see any evidence of 'dis'ing of popular books. The only 'dis'ing
>that may have been there is of the publishing giants looking for fast
>returns for their investors.

Yep.

>Personally, I have a weird tendency to look in areas other than the 'Top
>Ten' rack at the bookseller for the books I buy. While a shop of only
>'fast sellers' would be quick to look through, a lot of quality stuff
>would be missing.

Yep, but guess what, you see more and more of these "top ten" stores
appearing... It's too bad, because I enjoy most anything, and Spider
is one of the best out there...

ttyl
Jason

Matthew T. Russotto

unread,
Sep 19, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/19/97
to

In article <01bcc50d$a13da630$f9478781@gremjack>,

Christopher M. Palmer <cmpa...@ingr.com> wrote:

}TANSTAAFL -- If you want a rich and rewarding array of books and authors
}available at your local bookstore, you should make a concious effort to buy
}at least a few new books (and new hardbacks even) and support the market.

How do I do this if they don't even carry them? Case in point, and
not an unknown author: Charles Sheffield's Heritage Universe. I
bought the first book, which promised a trilogy. But none of my
local bookstores ever picked up the second and third books. I figured
he had just abandoned it for some reason, but it's just that the
bookstores never carried it.

--
Matthew T. Russotto russ...@pond.com
"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in pursuit
of justice is no virtue."

EC Therapy

unread,
Sep 19, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/19/97
to

Matthew T. Russotto wrote:
>
> In article <01bcc50d$a13da630$f9478781@gremjack>,
> Christopher M. Palmer <cmpa...@ingr.com> wrote:
>
> }TANSTAAFL -- If you want a rich and rewarding array of books and authors
> }available at your local bookstore, you should make a concious effort to buy
> }at least a few new books (and new hardbacks even) and support the market.
>
> How do I do this if they don't even carry them? Case in point, and
> not an unknown author: Charles Sheffield's Heritage Universe. I
> bought the first book, which promised a trilogy. But none of my
> local bookstores ever picked up the second and third books. I figured
> he had just abandoned it for some reason, but it's just that the
> bookstores never carried it.
Amen to that! I go to my local bookstore and, after wading through
several aisles of "bodice-rippers" <faint look of disgust> all I find
are Star Wars and Star Trek novels. Now, I am fond of Trek and liked
the SW movies, but I prefer to read what I call "hard S" -- Heinlein (my
fave), Asmov, ellison. I also like good fantasy, especially comic
fantasy. but to the booksellers around here, the only fantasy is
Dragonlance, Shadowrun or other RPG-based series.

I am now waiting impatiently for a new bookstore to open (soon thy say)
that carries only Fantasy/SF/and horror books. Let me tell you, I will
be THERE and that is where I will spend my hard earned book money.

alas, I don't make enough to support my habit. This text addiction I
have gets bad some days. When I need a fix, I often am forced to use
the library (extremely small and very little of my preferred poison). I
have been known to go into withdrawal so severe that only a rereading of
"Stranger in a Strange LAnd" does any good.

I personally would like to buy more of Spider's tales. But I was pretty
damned lucky to spot the omnibus paperback of "Callahans' Chronicles" at
the bookstore (and therefore find out about this newsgroup). I would
order the others, but don't know the titles, only that they exist.
(hint, hint- help please)

So, here is my toast for the evening "To Good Books--When you can find
'em!"

*crash*

Jeanne Burton

unread,
Sep 20, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/20/97
to

> > Joseph Abbott <jabbott@{remove}lynx.bc.ca> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >Is this real? If so its kinda pathetic. Begging people on the internet
> > >to buy your book?
> >
> > I am just about positive it's real... and I don't know about it being
> > pathetic. Yes, the request was made to buy his book (which many people
> > will do) but also to support other authors, any authors.

I took it as a plea for help, from people Spider KNEW would care...because
most of us wouldn't BE here if we hadn't already expressed an interest in
his books, and hadn't probably bought them already..kinda like preaching to
the choir.




> I can here you now saying, "But I do buy at least a book a week!". How
> many of the books you buy are paperback? How many are from used book
> stores, yard sales, or library sales? How many books do you read from
the
> library?

When I got my B. Dalton's preferred reader card, they asked me to check the
amount I spent on books as $0-10, $10-50, $50-100, $100-300, or $300 and
up...I thought they were talking a MONTH, and checked the $300 and up
column...was SHOCKED when they were talking yearly. My house (the 4 of us
who actually LIVE here, not the people who live here offandon...wouldn't
want to even THINK about what all of us spend) consistently spends more
money a month on books than on the mortgage...but I realize we're fortunate
to be able to do that...
however, it's getting consistently more difficult to do that, simply
because I can't find books I WANT to buy...there are more "category" or
"formula" books out there than what I refer to as "real" books. I realize
that's my personal opinion...I just don't like the
startrek/starwars/shadowrun/d&d/doom/myst/etc books...and I'm looking for
something different...tho I'd rather have people reading "category" books
than none at all...and I know some people really DO love them...like my
SO...just not me :>



> I *love* used book stores, libraries, library sales, and yard sales, but
> the fact is, the authors and publishers aren't making a cent from them.
> Therefore, the fact the some Spider Robinson paperback was read and loved
> by 10 people serially sharing the same copy only equals 1 copy sold (and,
> probably, a few cents at most to Spider).

Truth...and something I need to consider a bit more...except for the
outofprint stuff I'll still have to get at Friedly's, because they have
EVERYTHING in that old store...including a hardcover copy of "The Colour of
Magic" for $5.

>

> It would be nice to dream of electronic distribution and the web giving
> authors a place to sell books directly and make money, but it hasn't
> happened yet. I also suspect that the people who say, "I would pay $3 to
> download a new book by an author I like" would also be the ones e-mailing
a
> copy to their friends or posting around the 'net trying to find a free
> copy.

Probably true, unfortunately...but it still is preferable to not getting
ANY new books...isn't it??

Hugs,
Jeanne

Jeanne Burton

unread,
Sep 20, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/20/97
to


Matthew T. Russotto <russ...@wanda.vf.pond.com> wrote in article
<5vuc6q$5...@wanda.vf.pond.com>...


> In article <01bcc50d$a13da630$f9478781@gremjack>,
> Christopher M. Palmer <cmpa...@ingr.com> wrote:
>
> }TANSTAAFL -- If you want a rich and rewarding array of books and authors
> }available at your local bookstore, you should make a concious effort to
buy
> }at least a few new books (and new hardbacks even) and support the
market.
>
> How do I do this if they don't even carry them? Case in point, and
> not an unknown author: Charles Sheffield's Heritage Universe. I
> bought the first book, which promised a trilogy. But none of my
> local bookstores ever picked up the second and third books. I figured
> he had just abandoned it for some reason, but it's just that the
> bookstores never carried it.
>

ditto Spider's Best of All Possible Worlds 2...the first anthology was one
of the most unique concepts for an anthology I'd ever read, and I loved the
whole book...but can find no evidence ANYWHERE (except in Best of all
Possible Worlds 1's foreword) that the second one ever existed, or was
intended to exist. Does anyone know if it was ever written or published???

Hugs,
Jeanne

doug.graham

unread,
Sep 20, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/20/97
to

Joseph Abbott <jabbott@{remove}lynx.bc.ca> wrote in article
<342215e0...@news.lynx.bc.ca>...

>
>
> Is this real? If so its kinda pathetic. Begging people on the internet
> to buy your book?
>
> I'm sorry, but no one, especially artists, are owed a living. You have
> to earn it. It never ceases to amaze me how authors can dis popular
> books as trash. If they are just simple-minded trash, then why not

> write one and stop begging like a drunk on the street corner.

Joe,

What's pathetic about it? Everyone is beginning to use the Web to hawk
their products, from Bill Gates right down to me and thee. If I have a
product to sell, why not use ALL channels to let people know about it?
They'll decide if they want to buy it or not! As for "earning a living",
Spider Robinson is one of the hardest working authors in SF today. If
encouraging folks to buy his books thru amazon.com can garner a few more
shekels for the poor guy, I'm all for it. Besides, if he doesn't get a
living wage out of his work, he might (shudder!) turn to something else,
and we'd all be the poorer for it. Imagine...no more Callahan's Place
stories. Argh!

Regards,
Doug Graham

Joseph Abbott

unread,
Sep 20, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/20/97
to

If Spider needs to make some money, maybe he should adapt one of his
novels to the silver screen. I have talked to a few literary agents
recently and they say one of the hottest things right now is character
driven science fiction. NOT FX action blockbusters, but character
driven scripts.

Hollywood is finally realising that many people are sick of the
plotless, characterless explosion-fests they have been turning out for
the past decade (or more). By next summer we will start to see some
deeper, more intelligent movies coming out of Hollywood. *fingers
crossed* ;)

Instead of putting down Hollywood (as he does repeatedly in his open
letter), maybe Spider should try to write a movie script that is fast
paced, keeps the audience's interest, has rising action from the
beginning right up to the end AND has a character driven plot.

I'm sure he would not have trouble getting prodcos and execs to read
his script, and even if they dont produce it, they may option it. Many
screenwriters make a good living just selling options.

There are lots of ways for writers to make a living, not just by
turning out novels. If novels dont cut it anymore, try something else.
Does Spider Robinson want to end up like Herman Melville? Melville was
a very popular writer until he wrote Moby Dick. It flopped and he
never wrote another popular book. When he died he was so forgotten the
New York Times misspelled his name.

Matthew T. Russotto

unread,
Sep 20, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/20/97
to

In article <slrn628a1a....@sherrill.kiva.net>,
T. Eckhart <teck...@sherrill.kiva.net> wrote:

} "Well," TammyJo decides to make a suggestion. "Tell them you want
}the book, ask them to order it for you.

In this case, by the time I knew the books existed, they were out of
print.

} "Now I don't ask folks to buy my books, but I do ask (here I am
}doing it again) for folks to let me know what they think/felt after
}reading something of mine and to please let that publisher know as well.
}It makes me feel more alive to hear what folks think."

I don't know... telling an author how I thought/felt about her book
just seems like a no-win situation. I'd find it really
uncomfortable.. obviously I'm not editor material.

Anne Gwin

unread,
Sep 21, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/21/97
to

In article <slrn628a1a....@sherrill.kiva.net>,
teck...@sherrill.kiva.net (T. Eckhart) wrote:

> "And as for hawking your own work, I feel as though it is expected
> of writers now a days. Unless you are a Stephen King or one of those

Warren Norwood used to take hot doughnuts and coffee to the
book-delivery-truck drivers on a regular basis. When one of his books was
freshly published, hey look! There they are, prominently
displayed....Dunno if the drivers still do the unloading, but it's worth a
shot...'Course, Warren's a good-ol-boy who can charm the pants off a
snake. ;-)

Anne

--
Machine shared by Anne Gwin (agwin*AT*mail.utexas.edu) and Nyarlathotep (nyarlathotep*AT*mail.utexas.edu). Sometimes we forget to change the name on the post.

"The little engine that could, did."--Rob Manning, Mars Pathfinder flight director, 7/4/97.

<Discussing an image of a black rectangle silhouetted against the Martian landscape> "That is the top of the calibration target, that is _not_ in fact a monolith."--NASA TV commentator, 7/5/97

Derek Lyons

unread,
Sep 21, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/21/97
to

jabbott@{remove}lynx.bc.ca (Joseph Abbott) wrote:


>Is this real? If so its kinda pathetic. Begging people on the internet
>to buy your book?

>I'm sorry, but no one, especially artists, are owed a living. You have
>to earn it. It never ceases to amaze me how authors can dis popular
>books as trash. If they are just simple-minded trash, then why not
>write one and stop begging like a drunk on the street corner.

>Joseph Abbott

Amen! Especially given that Spider, (whose realier works I have
vastly enjoyed, both as entertainment and food for thought), has
recently evolved into a one-trick pony.

Will all due respect to Spider, both 'Lifehouse' and 'Callahans
Legacy' were boring repeats of what he's done before.

Derek


T. Eckhart

unread,
Sep 21, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/21/97
to

On 20 Sep 1997 22:03:23 -0400, Matthew T. Russotto <russ...@wanda.vf.pond.com> wrote:
>In article <slrn628a1a....@sherrill.kiva.net>,
>T. Eckhart <teck...@sherrill.kiva.net> wrote:
>} "Now I don't ask folks to buy my books, but I do ask (here I am
>}doing it again) for folks to let me know what they think/felt after
>}reading something of mine and to please let that publisher know as well.
>}It makes me feel more alive to hear what folks think."
>
>I don't know... telling an author how I thought/felt about her book
>just seems like a no-win situation. I'd find it really
>uncomfortable.. obviously I'm not editor material.

"Well, you don't need to critique the work, just let an author
know if you enjoyed the book/story. It gives us/them a good feeling and
makes them want to write more. And for the vast majority of writers, the
money isn't why we write; we write because these characters, events, idea
wake us up in the middle of the night, distract us when we should be doing
something else, and harass us until its written down -- and we might even
enjoy it, too."
"So, just say 'thanks, I enjoyed it', please. Writers aren't all
like Harlan Ellison; many of us like the folks who read our work and try
to talk with us." (TammyJo's opinion only)


--
Tammy Jo Eckhart (teck...@kiva.net)
http://www.kiva.net/~teckhart/

Richard Newsome

unread,
Sep 22, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/22/97
to

You know, I went down to my local Barnes & Noble today, and counted the
number of books in the science fiction section, and they had 2500 different
titles. Only 500 of those were in the "Star Trek/Robotech/Dragonlance/Star
Wars/etc" sf series section. So there were 2000 different paperback titles in
straight sf, of which 4 were by Spider Robinson.

So what's all this about them only leaving the books on the shelf for
a month, if they don't strip them on arrival? How can they stock 2000
titles and be rolling the stock over every 30 days? The shelves would
be bare if they sent everything back at the end of 30 days, unless were
were 2000 new titles coming out every month, which thankfully there are
not.

What probably does happen is that they get computerized sales reports
on inventory, and any title which isn't selling goes back at the end
of 30 days. And that makes space for the 100-200 new titles that arrive
every month.

The real problem Spider Robinson, Norman Spinrad and the other midlist
sf authors seem to be having, I would guess, is the sheer flood of
product they have to compete with.


Richard Newsome
new...@panix.com


Dan Goodman

unread,
Sep 22, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/22/97
to

In article <6051an$i...@panix2.panix.com>,

In both cases, there seem to be other problems. In Spinrad's case, he has
a reputation for not being as easy to deal with as, for example, Harlan
Ellison.

With Robinson -- there are people like me who think the Callahan's stuff
has gone downhill. Readers who come to him new have the problem that the
latest stuff has a lot of references to what's gone before. If you're not
familiar with the continuing characters, and with previous episodes of the
show, it's difficult to get into.
--
Dan Goodman
dsg...@visi.com
http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html
Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much.

P Nielsen Hayden

unread,
Sep 22, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/22/97
to

[Followups set to rec.arts.sf.written.]


In article <6051an$i...@panix2.panix.com>, new...@panix.com (Richard Newsome)

wrote:
>You know, I went down to my local Barnes & Noble today, and counted the
>number of books in the science fiction section, and they had 2500 different
>titles. Only 500 of those were in the "Star Trek/Robotech/Dragonlance/Star
>Wars/etc" sf series section. So there were 2000 different paperback titles in
>straight sf, of which 4 were by Spider Robinson.
>
>So what's all this about them only leaving the books on the shelf for
>a month, if they don't strip them on arrival? How can they stock 2000
>titles and be rolling the stock over every 30 days? The shelves would
>be bare if they sent everything back at the end of 30 days, unless were
>were 2000 new titles coming out every month, which thankfully there are
>not.
>
>What probably does happen is that they get computerized sales reports
>on inventory, and any title which isn't selling goes back at the end
>of 30 days. And that makes space for the 100-200 new titles that arrive
>every month.

Well, it's more complicated than that, but you have the right idea.
Obviously, Barnes and Noble leaves lots of books on the shelves longer than a
month. Many books simply go onto "automatic reorder" lists, for instance,
because they're able to tell that demand for them is constant.

These discussions become confused because mass-market paperbacks have an
extremely short selling cycle in the _ID_ market -- that is, grocery-store
wire racks, and similar outlets. That cycle is generally measured in days.
And people talk about that, and other people talk about the selling cycles in
the chain bookstores (which are often too short to allow certain authors to
build the audience they need, but which are certainly longer than the ID
cycle). And then other people mix the two concepts up. The usual confusion
ensues.

>The real problem Spider Robinson, Norman Spinrad and the other midlist
>sf authors seem to be having, I would guess, is the sheer flood of
>product they have to compete with.

Certainly it doesn't do to underestimate that aspect of the problem.

There were something like two dozen SF paperbacks published in, what, 1951?
Each of which had print runs measured in the hundreds of thousands. Today we
publish hundreds of SF paperbacks per year, most of which have print runs in
the low tens of thousands. It's not hard to see what's going on.

Are we publishing too many books? In fact, I think so. I it's confusing
readers and driving them away from SF. But this isn't an opinion likely to
win me popularity polls among SF writers.

-----
Patrick Nielsen Hayden : p...@panix.com : http://www.panix.com/~pnh
Tor Books : http://www.tor.com

Sanford E. Walke IV

unread,
Sep 22, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/22/97
to

Jeanne Burton (jea...@toltbbs.com) wrote:

>Truth...and something I need to consider a bit more...except for the
>outofprint stuff I'll still have to get at Friedly's, because they have
>EVERYTHING in that old store...including a hardcover copy of "The Colour of
>Magic" for $5.

Is that the Friedly's in Toledo?

--
Sandy se...@izzy.net
I don't speak for anyone but myself, and sometimes not even that.

Sam Yorko

unread,
Sep 22, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/22/97
to

Joseph Abbott wrote:
>
> If Spider needs to make some money, maybe he should adapt one of his
> novels to the silver screen. I have talked to a few literary agents
> recently and they say one of the hottest things right now is character
> driven science fiction. NOT FX action blockbusters, but character
> driven scripts.
>
> Hollywood is finally realising that many people are sick of the
> plotless, characterless explosion-fests they have been turning out for
> the past decade (or more). By next summer we will start to see some
> deeper, more intelligent movies coming out of Hollywood. *fingers
> crossed* ;)
>
> Joseph Abbott
> __
After the butchery they seem to be making of "Starship Troopers", I find
the above hard to believe......

Sam Yorko

unread,
Sep 22, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/22/97
to

Dan Goodman wrote:
>
> In article <6051an$i...@panix2.panix.com>,

> With Robinson -- there are people like me who think the Callahan's stuff
> has gone downhill. Readers who come to him new have the problem that the
> latest stuff has a lot of references to what's gone before. If you're not
> familiar with the continuing characters, and with previous episodes of the
> show, it's difficult to get into.
> --
> Dan Goodman
> dsg...@visi.com
> http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html
> Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much.
My one gripe with Siper's writing is that he always tries to have the
characters have their cake and eat it, too. Three novels, stories, etc.
have the same theme: death of a character motivates main character to
change/examine self/grow up; main character becomes better; surprise,
motivating death wasn't. Gets formulic after a while.
Having said that, I've still bought all the original books (no
reprints/recompilations, etc.)

Kristin A. Ruhle

unread,
Sep 22, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/22/97
to

Dan Goodman (dsg...@visi.com) wrote:
: In article <6051an$i...@panix2.panix.com>,
: Richard Newsome <new...@panix.com> wrote:

(rant about publishing snipped)
: >
: >
: >The real problem Spider Robinson, Norman Spinrad and the other midlist


: >sf authors seem to be having, I would guess, is the sheer flood of
: >product they have to compete with.

: In both cases, there seem to be other problems. In Spinrad's case, he has


: a reputation for not being as easy to deal with as, for example, Harlan
: Ellison.

"Whoo," says Kristin-with-an-I. "That must be *something.* I mean, Harlan
may be foul-mouthed, but I respect his intellectual honesty."


: With Robinson -- there are people like me who think the Callahan's stuff


: has gone downhill. Readers who come to him new have the problem that the
: latest stuff has a lot of references to what's gone before. If you're not
: familiar with the continuing characters, and with previous episodes of the
: show, it's difficult to get into.
: --

"Well he DID try to KILL Callahans the way Conan Doyle killed Sherlock
Holmes...and found the out the same thing Conan Doyle did: people keep
demanding more and more! *We* wanted more Callahan's, the *pubilsher*
wanted more Callahan's...poor Spider had to rack his brains for new ideas
(I even heard him beg fans for some) or steal from reality (e.g. "Tood and
Janey.") Having run out of Weird Things to Populate the Place With
(aliens, mutants, talking animals, psychics) he had to resort to Irish
fairies! I honestly can't blame the man if his quality has dropped what
with the pressure he's under. And a LOT of talented writers have been
reduced to churning out crap to keep paying the bills. Spider hasn't
really sunk to that point yet...although I'm reading DEATHKILLER and I
think the quality is better than LIFEHOUSE." Kristin-wiith-an-I pauses for
breath. "yeah, i know you're sposed to read DEATHKILLER first. I'd
misplaced my copy, and anyway I read MINDKILLER quite awhile back.
Still...aren't his dreams wonderful dreams that make you feel good?"

Kristin-with-an-I sighs an goes back to her reading.


--
"Fifteen hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was the center of the
universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew it was flat. And fifteen
minutes ago you knew humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what
you'll know tomorrow." --Men in Black/////kri...@rahul.net/Kristin Ruhle

Sam Yorko

unread,
Sep 22, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/22/97
to

Richard Newsome wrote:
>
> You know, I went down to my local Barnes & Noble today, and counted the
> number of books in the science fiction section, and they had 2500 different
> titles. Only 500 of those were in the "Star Trek/Robotech/Dragonlance/Star
> Wars/etc" sf series section. So there were 2000 different paperback titles in
> straight sf, of which 4 were by Spider Robinson.
>
> So what's all this about them only leaving the books on the shelf for
> a month, if they don't strip them on arrival? How can they stock 2000
> titles and be rolling the stock over every 30 days? The shelves would
> be bare if they sent everything back at the end of 30 days, unless were
> were 2000 new titles coming out every month, which thankfully there are
> not.
>
> What probably does happen is that they get computerized sales reports
> on inventory, and any title which isn't selling goes back at the end
> of 30 days. And that makes space for the 100-200 new titles that arrive
> every month.
>
> The real problem Spider Robinson, Norman Spinrad and the other midlist
> sf authors seem to be having, I would guess, is the sheer flood of
> product they have to compete with.
>
> Richard Newsome
> new...@panix.com
From what I understand, the gummit went and changed the rules on
taxation of backstock books, such that it became economically poison to
keep anything in the warehouse. Something like an inventory tax on the
cover price of the books, if I disremember.....

Gary Farber

unread,
Sep 22, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/22/97
to

In rec.arts.sf.written
<3426F4...@compuserve.com>
Sam Yorko <JOATno...@compuserve.com> wrote:
[. . .]
: From what I understand, the gummit went and changed the rules on

: taxation of backstock books, such that it became economically poison to
: keep anything in the warehouse. Something like an inventory tax on the
: cover price of the books, if I disremember.....

And thus the great Urban Legend (in effect) of Thor Power Tools rolls on,
perpetuated time and again in classic urban legend fashion: "I don't
really know what I'm talking about, but I heard that. . . . "
--
--
Copyright 1997 by Gary Farber; Experienced Web Researcher; Nonfiction
Writer, Fiction and Nonfiction Editor; gfa...@panix.com; B'klyn, NYC

Wendy Hyers

unread,
Sep 22, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/22/97
to

Gary Farber wrote:

> In rec.arts.sf.written
> <3426F4...@compuserve.com>
> Sam Yorko <JOATno...@compuserve.com> wrote:
> [. . .]
> : From what I understand, the gummit went and changed the rules on
> : taxation of backstock books, such that it became economically poison
> to
> : keep anything in the warehouse. Something like an inventory tax on
> the
> : cover price of the books, if I disremember.....
>
> And thus the great Urban Legend (in effect) of Thor Power Tools rolls
> on,
> perpetuated time and again in classic urban legend fashion: "I don't
> really know what I'm talking about, but I heard that. . . . "

Yeah, yeah...well, that's what I was told too, that the backstock was
now subject to taxation as assets where it had not been before. I
*believe* (though my memory is occasionally suspect) that I was told
this by book reps, back when I was in the biz myself. Unless someone
else wants to verify, I'll get back to you when I can check it for
myself.

Wendy H


Michael Kozlowski

unread,
Sep 22, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/22/97
to

[follow-ups set appropriately]

In article <6051an$i...@panix2.panix.com>,
Richard Newsome <new...@panix.com> wrote:
>

>The real problem Spider Robinson, Norman Spinrad and the other midlist
>sf authors seem to be having, I would guess, is the sheer flood of
>product they have to compete with.

What I wonder, though, is if the problems Robinson and Spinrad are having
are really endemic in the publishing industry, or if they might be unique
to these authors.

Does anyone have any numbers that would indicate a general trend?

--
Michael Kozlowski m...@cs.wisc.edu
Recommended SF Reading at: http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~mlk/sfbooks.html
"Ghost of Carl Sagan Warns Against Dangers of Superstition" -The Onion

The Polymath

unread,
Sep 22, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/22/97
to

Kristin A. Ruhle wrote:

>... Still...aren't his dreams wonderful dreams that make you feel good?"

I'm afraid that's a problem, for me, anyway. Unrepentant curmudgeon
that I am, I stopped reading Spider's books some years ago for fear
they'd rot my teeth. He writes well and spins a good yarn, but it's
just not my style.

I do sympathize with his predicament. I'm only a year older than he is
and I'm starting to look around for a new profession. Despite what
people tell me about the market picking up, there doesn't seem to be
much demand for a 49 year old software engineer. Currently in the 10th
month of a 2 month contract that's barely keeping my nose above water,
I've turned down a few jobs that paid better because they were too far
away and didn't pay enough better to make it worth while.

I'd love to start a firearms instruction business, but California's
about to legislate that prospect out of existence, too.

Maybe Spider and I should get together and brainstorm this mess.

[Newsgroups trimmed to alt.callahans.]

--
The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CCP, CFI)
http://www.babcom.com/polymath
(818) 882-6309
Query pgpkeys.mit.edu for PGP public key.

Jeanne Burton

unread,
Sep 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/23/97
to


Sanford E. Walke IV <se...@izzy5.izzy.net> wrote in article
<6065v5$og2$3...@izzy4.izzy.net>...


> Jeanne Burton (jea...@toltbbs.com) wrote:
>
> >Truth...and something I need to consider a bit more...except for the
> >outofprint stuff I'll still have to get at Friedly's, because they have
> >EVERYTHING in that old store...including a hardcover copy of "The Colour
of
> >Magic" for $5.
>
> Is that the Friedly's in Toledo?
>
> --

But of course...even tho they moved and it took me 6 months to find them,
hidden as they are behind the Monroe Street Diner....whose brilliant idea
was THAT anyway???
But I digress....it's obvious YOU know/knew where it was :>
Hugs,
Jeanne

him.

unread,
Sep 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/23/97
to

Kristin A. Ruhle <kri...@rahul.net> wrote:
>"Well he DID try to KILL Callahans the way Conan Doyle killed Sherlock
>Holmes...and found the out the same thing Conan Doyle did: people keep
>demanding more and more! *We* wanted more Callahan's, the *pubilsher*
>wanted more Callahan's...poor Spider had to rack his brains for new ideas
>(I even heard him beg fans for some) or steal from reality (e.g. "Tood and
>Janey.") Having run out of Weird Things to Populate the Place With
>(aliens, mutants, talking animals, psychics) he had to resort to Irish
>fairies!

Al ponders this.

"Then he doesn't know his own product well." he says. "The secret, the
selling point, the thing that makes callahans unique in whatever
incarnation, is that the people are NICE to each other. Take, for
example, 'involuntary man's laughter', or 'a voice is heard in ramah.'
The part I liked best about callahans legacy was where the old old
characters told the stories of how they got here."

Big Al. Especially eddies. made the whole book.


Podkayne Fries

unread,
Sep 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/23/97
to

On 22 Sep 1997 18:12:37 -0400, gfa...@panix.com (Gary Farber)

wrote:
>In rec.arts.sf.written
><3426F4...@compuserve.com>
>Sam Yorko <JOATno...@compuserve.com> wrote:
>[. . .]
>: From what I understand, the gummit went and changed the rules on
>: taxation of backstock books, such that it became economically poison to
>: keep anything in the warehouse. Something like an inventory tax on the
>: cover price of the books, if I disremember.....
>
>And thus the great Urban Legend (in effect) of Thor Power Tools rolls on,
>perpetuated time and again in classic urban legend fashion: "I don't
>really know what I'm talking about, but I heard that. . . . "
>--

Can you cite anything to dispute this claim? Businesses do pay
inventory on stock.


Regards, Podkayne Fries
==
"Those who study history are doomed to watch
others repeat it." - Susan E. Cohen

Brice D. Fleckenstein

unread,
Sep 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/23/97
to Wendy Hyers

> Yeah, yeah...well, that's what I was told too, that the backstock was
> now subject to taxation as assets where it had not been before.

It's called "Property Tax" in Indiana, and is NOT a new thing. I used
to HATE figuring it up on my stock, back when I owned/ran a
bookstore....

--

If this was in a newsgroup message, it was emailed to you as well.

My opinions are my own, and no others.

Spam recieved at this email account WILL be considered harrassing
e-mail
and all appropriate legal remedies MAY be applied, at my option.

Brice D. Fleckenstein

IRC: QuintLeo (or LeoOnRoad)
EMail: ci...@surf-ici.com

DK

unread,
Sep 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/23/97
to

Mr. Robinson's letter filled me with horror. First
of all, there are my feelings at seeing someone who has
brought so much to so many, and in a way I can only describe
as having evolved from the excellent to the superlative,
being cut down in his prime... and while he is still selling
well! Throughout my life I have become increasingly alarmed
as book prices rise while manufacturing costs drop; it seems
also that science fiction writing, always the realm of the
financial risk-takers to say the least, is beccoming elitist
and, for the most part, untenable.
The thing is, I write science fiction. I feel it
safe to say that I write GOOD science fction. The spirit
bloomed in me one day and started pumping out stories and
novels, and there's nothing I could do to stop it if I
wanted to. In my years-long quest, still ongoing, to break
in, I have faced that a multitude of those I respect most in
the field have faced dozens, if not hundreds, of rejection
slips before that glorious day. However, I had been laboring
under the misapprehension that once a person HAD broken in,
all that was necessary was consitent submissions of
probably-popular (and preferably good) work--which
consistently sold. Not so, it seems! I had thought I would
have to stop selling before they'd stop paying! If SPIDER
ROBINSON can't pay the rent, what am I facing? Maybe those
of us not already very firmly entrenched should just give
up--but that's pretending I could do that, or that if I
could, I would be willing to turn the entire genre over to
the narrow band of writers that are popular with the largest
number of people with money. Even pretending it's all good,
isn't there a need for other stories as well?
I'd like to do something about it, find a way to
change the industry or win the lottery so I could start a
publishing business myself without having to worry about
sales, sales, sales; something. I'll keep thinking about
it--I suggest everyone else do the same.

K. Cooper
--
COAXIAL CABAL
Primate Oraculous Catalysm Cognimentia
Mstr Ozymandias Hyssop PSC, OTE, MOND


Joseph Abbott

unread,
Sep 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/23/97
to

On Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:09:52 -0800, Sam Yorko
<JOATno...@compuserve.com> wrote:

>Joseph Abbott wrote:
>By next summer we will start to see some
>> deeper, more intelligent movies coming out of Hollywood. *fingers
>> crossed* ;)

>After the butchery they seem to be making of "Starship Troopers", I find


>the above hard to believe......

I did say by NEXT summer... :) I havent seen Starship Troopers, but
isnt it about giant invading insectoids? How exactly do you butcher a
movie about giant insectoids? It's a rip off of cheesy 50s B-movies,
not 2001.

Brice D. Fleckenstein

unread,
Sep 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/23/97
to Joseph Abbott

> I did say by NEXT summer... :) I havent seen Starship Troopers, but
> isnt it about giant invading insectoids? How exactly do you butcher a
> movie about giant insectoids? It's a rip off of cheesy 50s B-movies,
> not 2001.
>

Read the book first. It bears NO relation to cheesy 50s B movies.

John Palmer

unread,
Sep 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/23/97
to

On Sat, 20 Sep 1997 05:38:38 GMT, jabbott@{remove}lynx.bc.ca (Joseph
Abbott) wrote:

>
>Instead of putting down Hollywood (as he does repeatedly in his open
>letter), maybe Spider should try to write a movie script that is fast
>paced, keeps the audience's interest, has rising action from the
>beginning right up to the end AND has a character driven plot.

Spider put down Hollywood as "trying to produce nothing but
blockbusters and films for grooming blockbuster stars". He did *NOT*
(if I recall) insult the writers, actors, directors, etc.

This seems like the second mis-take on his letter.

>There are lots of ways for writers to make a living, not just by
>turning out novels. If novels dont cut it anymore, try something else.

There's a world of difference between being "unable" to do
something and not *WANTING* to do something. The novel is a good,
viable art form, and should not start dying out due to an
unwillingness to publish a solid, but not best-, seller.


John Palmer

unread,
Sep 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/23/97
to

On 23 Sep 1997 01:41:06 GMT, Ars...@cris.com (him.) wrote:

>Kristin A. Ruhle <kri...@rahul.net> wrote:
>>"Well he DID try to KILL Callahans the way Conan Doyle killed Sherlock
>>Holmes...and found the out the same thing Conan Doyle did: people keep
>>demanding more and more! *We* wanted more Callahan's, the *pubilsher*
>>wanted more Callahan's...poor Spider had to rack his brains for new ideas
>>(I even heard him beg fans for some) or steal from reality (e.g. "Tood and
>>Janey.") Having run out of Weird Things to Populate the Place With
>>(aliens, mutants, talking animals, psychics) he had to resort to Irish
>>fairies!
>
>Al ponders this.
>
>"Then he doesn't know his own product well." he says. "The secret, the
>selling point, the thing that makes callahans unique in whatever
>incarnation, is that the people are NICE to each other.

To a degree, that's true, but keep in mind that he also has the
problem that Doyle probably had: that there are only so many ways for
people to be "nice" to each other in a readable interesting manner.

The first book about "Mary's Place" was a tad bit dull, to me, at
times. I mean, it was a good read, and I liked it, but it didn't seem
to DO anything, if you know what I mean.

Comfort food, so to speak; like a 'normal' brownie or bowl of
your favorite ice cream. It's JUST like you know it will be, and it's
good, but it's not adventurous.

I haven't been able to read anything more from him. . .time and
money are important constraints. . . but it could well be "going
downhill" if he has to keep in that same vein.

Andrew

unread,
Sep 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/23/97
to

The Polymath wrote:
>
> I do sympathize with his predicament. I'm only a year older than he is
> and I'm starting to look around for a new profession.
>
> Maybe Spider and I should get together and brainstorm this mess.
>

Ah! There's the rub! There are a LOT of people looking around for a
better idea of how to make a living. I'm one, most of my friends are,
and from the postings here, a lot of you folk are as well.

Hell, I even became an Amway distributer for a while...

So: we've got possibly thousands (tens of, hundreds of?) people looking
for a "better way". There are a few people who actually find one...
What's wrong with the picture for the rest of us?
Lack of creativity?
Lack of guts to follow through on an idea?
Lack of available ideas / opportunities (how many coffee shops does the
wold need?)

I'm open to ideas if anyone wants to start a brainstorming session right
here. Let's skip the get rich quick nonsense, apply some thought to
basic
economics and human needs and see if we can come up with that
long-sought "better way"

-- Andrew
A quiet voice.

John Palmer

unread,
Sep 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/23/97
to

On Tue, 23 Sep 1997 05:15:34 GMT, jabbott@{remove}lynx.bc.ca (Joseph
Abbott) wrote:
>
>I did say by NEXT summer... :) I havent seen Starship Troopers, but
>isnt it about giant invading insectoids? How exactly do you butcher a
>movie about giant insectoids? It's a rip off of cheesy 50s B-movies,
>not 2001.

No, dummy, it's about a bunch of hive-intelligent insectoids
attacking earth colonies, and one boy/man's rite of passage and coming
of age in a time struck by war, and learning to be willing to fight
for what he believes in. Do you make a habit of ignorant blather?

John Palmer

unread,
Sep 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/23/97
to

On Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:38:32 -0500, Wendy Hyers <kaj...@winternet.com>
wrote:

>
>Yeah, yeah...well, that's what I was told too, that the backstock was
>now subject to taxation as assets where it had not been before. I
>*believe* (though my memory is occasionally suspect) that I was told
>this by book reps, back when I was in the biz myself. Unless someone
>else wants to verify, I'll get back to you when I can check it for
>myself.

Federal taxation is generally on *INCOME*, and not on "assets".
Now, too much inventory is bad for taxation because a diminished
inventory lowers your assets making your net profit lower. . . but I'd
be amazed to hear of inventory being federally taxed.


Lee S. Billings

unread,
Sep 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/23/97
to

In article <34274f72...@news.lynx.bc.ca>,
jabbott@{remove}lynx.bc.ca says...

>
>On Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:09:52 -0800, Sam Yorko
><JOATno...@compuserve.com> wrote:
>>Joseph Abbott wrote:
>>By next summer we will start to see some
>>> deeper, more intelligent movies coming out of Hollywood. *fingers
>>> crossed* ;)
>
>>After the butchery they seem to be making of "Starship Troopers", I
find
>>the above hard to believe......
>
>I did say by NEXT summer... :) I havent seen Starship Troopers, but
>isnt it about giant invading insectoids? How exactly do you butcher a
>movie about giant insectoids? It's a rip off of cheesy 50s B-movies,
>not 2001.
>

Well, for one thing, it's hard to imagine _Starship Troopers_ without
the power suits. I mean, that was a *major* focal point in the book! I
was willing to grant that they wouldn't be able to do justice to the
philosophy; that's hard to do in any movie which is supposed to have an
action focus. But without the suits, it's not _Starship Troopers_ any
more, it's just another alien invasion story... and as you say, a
ripoff of cheesy 50's B-movies. The problem is that it could have been
so much more.

Celine


Francis A. Ney, Jr.

unread,
Sep 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/23/97
to

> > And thus the great Urban Legend (in effect) of Thor Power Tools rolls
> > on,
> > perpetuated time and again in classic urban legend fashion: "I don't
> > really know what I'm talking about, but I heard that. . . . "
>

> Yeah, yeah...well, that's what I was told too, that the backstock was
> now subject to taxation as assets where it had not been before. I
> *believe* (though my memory is occasionally suspect) that I was told
> this by book reps, back when I was in the biz myself. Unless someone
> else wants to verify, I'll get back to you when I can check it for
> myself.

I work for the IRS. Consider it verified.


---
Frank Ney WV/EMT-B VA/EMT-A N4ZHG LPWV NRA(L) GOA CCRKBA JPFO
Sponsor, BATF Abuse page http://www.access.digex.net/~croaker/batfabus.html
West Virginia Coordinator, Libertarian Second Amendment Caucus
NOTICE: Flaming email received will be posted to the appropriate newsgroups
- --
"Whether the authorities be invaders or merely local tyrants, the
effect of such [gun] laws is to place the individual at the mercy of
the state, unable to resist."
- Robert Heinlein, in a 1949 letter concerning _Red Planet_


John DeLaughter

unread,
Sep 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/23/97
to

jabbott@{remove}lynx.bc.ca (Joseph Abbott) wrote:
>On Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:09:52 -0800, Sam Yorko wrote:
>
>>After the butchery they seem to be making of "Starship Troopers", I find
>>the above hard to believe......
>
>I did say by NEXT summer... :) I havent seen Starship Troopers, but
>isnt it about giant invading insectoids? How exactly do you butcher a
>movie about giant insectoids? It's a rip off of cheesy 50s B-movies,
>not 2001.

No, no, no; the *movie* is being made as an unconcious rip-off of
cheesy 1950's B movies, but the book (which was written in the 1950's)
is much, much more than that. It includes some interesting observations
on rights and responsibilities, and an undisguised (except to reviewers,
none of whom seem to be able to comprehend simple English sentences) paen
to the soldiers who have fought for the freedoms which we Americans
enjoy.

Give the book a read. You might like it, you might hate it - but you'll
spend at least a some time thinking about it. That's a promise!

John DeLaughter

Sanford E. Walke IV

unread,
Sep 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/23/97
to

Jeanne Burton (jea...@toltbbs.com) wrote:

>Sanford E. Walke IV <se...@izzy5.izzy.net> wrote in article

>> Is that the Friedly's in Toledo?

>But of course...even tho they moved and it took me 6 months to find them,


>hidden as they are behind the Monroe Street Diner....whose brilliant idea
>was THAT anyway???
>But I digress....it's obvious YOU know/knew where it was :>

I found them accidentally, actually, on the way back from a customer site.

I had been looking for "Matadora" by Steve Perry, the second or third book
in the Matador series. No one in Ann Arbor had a copy (which is saying a
lot, given the number of used book stores around here), no one could order
it for me, and even the Ann Arbor Public Library couldn't get it for me
through the library network. I'd just about given up on it. Friedly's
had two copies. Gads.

Nice place.

Gary Farber

unread,
Sep 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/23/97
to

Evelyn, could we get the refutations from Patrick Nielsen Hayden and Pat
Wrede on the Thor Power Tools question put in the r.a.sf.w FAQ? I'm a
little tired of answering the question, myself.

In rec.arts.sf.written <34271e3d...@news3.ee.net> Podkayne Fries <ch...@magnacom.net> wrote:
: On 22 Sep 1997 18:12:37 -0400, gfa...@panix.com (Gary Farber)


: wrote:
: >In rec.arts.sf.written
: ><3426F4...@compuserve.com>
: >Sam Yorko <JOATno...@compuserve.com> wrote:
: >[. . .]
: >: From what I understand, the gummit went and changed the rules on
: >: taxation of backstock books, such that it became economically poison to
: >: keep anything in the warehouse. Something like an inventory tax on the
: >: cover price of the books, if I disremember.....

: >
: >And thus the great Urban Legend (in effect) of Thor Power Tools rolls on,


: >perpetuated time and again in classic urban legend fashion: "I don't
: >really know what I'm talking about, but I heard that. . . . "

: >--

: Can you cite anything to dispute this claim? Businesses do pay
: inventory on stock.


: Regards, Podkayne Fries
: ==
: "Those who study history are doomed to watch
: others repeat it." - Susan E. Cohen

Jim Pierce

unread,
Sep 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/23/97
to

Richard Newsome <new...@panix.com> wrote:
[] You know, I went down to my local Barnes & Noble today, and counted
[] the number of books in the science fiction section, and they had
[] 2500 different titles. Only 500 of those were in the "Star Trek/
[] Robotech/Dragonlance/Star Wars/etc" sf series section. So there
[] were 2000 different paperback titles in straight sf, of which 4
[] were by Spider Robinson.

at my local Waldenbooks, there are Star Trek shelves a column
tall. Along with others you mention above. Two columns of two
shelves for TSR, etc. games books and fantasy books. I found one
Spider Book, 'Callahan's Legacy', which I bought.

To find a variety, I have to go to the used book stores... which
authors get no money from.

DJ.
--
Jim M. Pierce jmpi...@medea.gp.usm.edu Disclaimer: Standard
* Pursuant to US Code, Title 47, Chapter 5, Subchapter II, §227, any and *
* all unsolicited commercial E-mail sent to this address (jmpierce@medea. *
* gp.usm.edu) is subject to a download and archival fee in the amount of *
* $10000 US. E-mailing denotes acceptance of these terms. *

Jeanne Burton

unread,
Sep 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/24/97
to


Sanford E. Walke IV <se...@izzy5.izzy.net> wrote in article

<608ns1$s1m$2...@izzy4.izzy.net>...

Well...I found a copy of an anthology edited by Asimov called "Tomorrow's
Children" (I'd only been looking for it continuously since 1979) in Ann
Arbor a couple of months ago...maybe we should just switch towns??? :>

Hugs,
Jeanne
still in search of a Blimpy Burger...since Blimpy's is the only thing she
hasn't found in Ann Arbor


NATHAN D. WESTON

unread,
Sep 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/24/97
to

Shadowdancer. The radio has to pay the publisher royalties for playing a song
on the air and part of those royalties go to the artist/s who
wrote/performed the song. Just thought I'd remind you.

Gnat Insectoid Jedi
"First control yourself, then you can learn to control other things."

Brice D. Fleckenstein

unread,
Sep 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/24/97
to holm...@beloit.edu

> What about music and recordings? I mostly just
> listen to music on the Radio rather than buy any and I know that does not
> put any money in the pockets of the artists.

Actually, artists DO get royalties for airplay - I think ASCAP
administers that.

--

If this was in a newsgroup message, it was emailed to you as well.

My opinions are my own, and no others - though if you would LIKE
to share them....8-)

Reply-to has been de-spammed. Real email address below.

Brice D. Fleckenstein

unread,
Sep 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/24/97
to John Palmer

> Federal taxation is generally on *INCOME*, and not on "assets".

States and counties, on the other hand, often DO tax "assets"....

Bill Gawne

unread,
Sep 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/24/97
to

[newsgroups line edited to just a.c]

> > What about music and recordings? I mostly just
> > listen to music on the Radio rather than buy any and I know that does not
> > put any money in the pockets of the artists.
>
> Actually, artists DO get royalties for airplay - I think ASCAP
> administers that.

This is a sore point with me. What ASCAP and BMI do is collect playlists and
allocate club fees based on frequency of airplay. So if I play a club, and
folks pay to be there, the portion of their admission that goes to the music
agencies actually gets distributed mostly to 'Top 40' artists even though I
don't play _any_ of that music. I'd much rather send a check directly to
Ariel Rogers for royalties on Stan's songs (which I *do* sing) but no, it
doesn't work that way.

On the good side, this practice has at least given _some_ visibility to
'alternative' singer/songwriters who have been getting air play on college
radio stations. But it's pretty meagre.

(I'm going to be out of the area for the next few weeks, so if you want
to discuss this with me please send e-mail or wait till after Oct 10th.)

--
Bill Gawne, in Callahan's as in real life. <ga...@pha.jhu.edu>
Senior Science Instrument Operations Analyst, Far Ultraviolet Spectroscopic
Explorer. Retired Master Sergeant USMCR. Nothing I post in alt.callahans
represents an official position of any organization.
On the web: http://www.pha.jhu.edu/~gawne

Anne Gwin

unread,
Sep 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/24/97
to

In article <3428BE...@surf-ici.com>, nospam@.surf-ici.com wrote:

> > What about music and recordings? I mostly just
> > listen to music on the Radio rather than buy any and I know that does not
> > put any money in the pockets of the artists.
>
> Actually, artists DO get royalties for airplay - I think ASCAP
> administers that.

You mean, they do something besides terrorize ballet teachers for using
their records in baby classes?

Anne

--
Machine shared by Anne Gwin (agwin*AT*mail.utexas.edu) and Nyarlathotep (nyarlathotep*AT*mail.utexas.edu). Sometimes we forget to change the name on the post.

"The little engine that could, did."--Rob Manning, Mars Pathfinder flight director, 7/4/97.

<Discussing an image of a black rectangle silhouetted against the Martian landscape> "That is the top of the calibration target, that is _not_ in fact a monolith."--NASA TV commentator, 7/5/97

Lady Cheron

unread,
Sep 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/24/97
to

Brice D. Fleckenstein wrote:
>
> > Federal taxation is generally on *INCOME*, and not on "assets".
>
> States and counties, on the other hand, often DO tax "assets"....

"Yup," comments Lady Cheron. "Virginia has an inventory tax--what you
have on hand at the beginning of the year plus your gross sales for
the year plus some accounting-type-mumbo-jumbo equals the amount you
pay in "business tax" for the year. Note that is _gross_ sales, not
_net_ -- no matter how thin your profit margin is. One reason that
Wargamers closed down."

Her eyes show the slightest hint of misting over, and she turns to
the bar. Reaching into her pocket, she produces a fistful of change,
two ten-sided dice, and a half-dozen computer screws. "On a roll of
72, . . .give me a Bushmills, Mike."

--
Lady Cheron, Keeper of the Birthday List for alt.callahans.
Reply to ladycheron at iname.com *reply-to is anti-spammed*
Check out the birthday list at http://www.callahans.org
"Just a hugaholic in search of her next fix."

Francis A. Ney, Jr.

unread,
Sep 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/24/97
to

In article <3428CC...@surf-ici.com> nospam@.surf-ici.com writes:

> > Federal taxation is generally on *INCOME*, and not on "assets".
>
> States and counties, on the other hand, often DO tax "assets"....

So do the feds. Inventory in stock is treated as income for tax purposes.

Yet another way to bleed the small businesses dry and eliminate the
competition.

Joseph Abbott

unread,
Sep 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/24/97
to

On Tue, 23 Sep 1997 16:11:08 GMT, jpal...@ix.netcom.com (John Palmer)
wrote:

>On Tue, 23 Sep 1997 05:15:34 GMT, jabbott@{remove}lynx.bc.ca (Joseph
>Abbott) wrote:
>>
>>I did say by NEXT summer... :) I havent seen Starship Troopers, but
>>isnt it about giant invading insectoids? How exactly do you butcher a
>>movie about giant insectoids? It's a rip off of cheesy 50s B-movies,
>>not 2001.
>

> No, dummy, it's about a bunch of hive-intelligent insectoids
>attacking earth colonies,

Isnt that what I said?

>and one boy/man's rite of passage and coming
>of age in a time struck by war, and learning to be willing to fight
>for what he believes in.

Gee, thanks for all the subplot info. We've NEVER seen a coming of age
story before. How unique! (In case you cant tell i'm being sarcastic)

The director, Paul Verhoeven (Showgirls), says it has a lot in common
with 1940s bomber pilot films.

Face it, if the filmmakers have to go way back to the 50s to find a
story to adapt into film, they are probably fresh out of new original
ideas.

But there is a market for new ideas, especially character driven
sci-fi, and I think by next summer we will start to see these films
appearing. Maybe not EVERY film will be character driven tho. I'm not
responsible for what Paul Verhoeven does.

Keep in mind that it takes a long time to make a movie. The movies
that are coming out now were probably being developed 3-4 years ago!

>Do you make a habit of ignorant blather?

Are you in the habit of flaming people for no reason?

barbara trumpinski

unread,
Sep 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/24/97
to

jabbott@{remove}lynx.bc.ca (Joseph Abbott) writes:
>On Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:09:52 -0800, Sam Yorko
><JOATno...@compuserve.com> wrote:
>>Joseph Abbott wrote:
>>By next summer we will start to see some
>>> deeper, more intelligent movies coming out of Hollywood. *fingers
>>> crossed* ;)

>>After the butchery they seem to be making of "Starship Troopers", I find


>>the above hard to believe......

>I did say by NEXT summer... :) I havent seen Starship Troopers, but


>isnt it about giant invading insectoids? How exactly do you butcher a
>movie about giant insectoids? It's a rip off of cheesy 50s B-movies,
>not 2001.

>Joseph Abbott


hon, you need to READ _starship troopers_ if you think it's about
bugs.

hugs,

kitten

--
kit...@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu barbara trumpinski
/\ /\ smotu "my life's a soap opera, isn't yours?"
{=.=} 'the serenity to accept the things i cannot change, the courage
~ to change the things i can and the wisdom to know the difference'

Robert Sneddon

unread,
Sep 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/24/97
to

In article <znr875048104k@Digex>

cro...@access.digex.net "Francis A. Ney, Jr." writes:

> I work for the IRS.

*Everybody* works for the IRS...

> ---
> Frank Ney WV/EMT-B VA/EMT-A N4ZHG LPWV NRA(L) GOA CCRKBA JPFO
> Sponsor, BATF Abuse page http://www.access.digex.net/~croaker/batfabus.html
> West Virginia Coordinator, Libertarian Second Amendment Caucus

BTW were you the IRS man who bought a KGB ID card off the Russian fans
at Intersection?

"KGB, most feared organisation on planet!" Purchaser flashes his IRS ID.
"Hokay, KGB, second most feared organisation on planet!"

--
To reply via email, remove the string "_nospam_" from my address.

Robert (nojay) Sneddon


Erick Vermillion-Salsbury aka Cali4nia

unread,
Sep 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/24/97
to ko...@ix.netcom.com

Kevin B. O'Brien wrote:
> >"Whether the authorities be invaders or merely local tyrants, the
> >effect of such [gun] laws is to place the individual at the mercy of
> >the state, unable to resist."
> > - Robert Heinlein, in a 1949 letter concerning _Red Planet_
>
> Sig left in for comment. Meaning no disrespect to Mr. Ney, who
> probably is kind to children and calls his mother regularly, but
> does anyone else find it hilarious that a Libertarian works for the
> IRS?

Speaking as a fellow libertarian, it seems like a sound strategy to me.
*Someone* needs to keep an eye on those wacky folks :>

Regards,

Erick Vermillion-Salsbury
http://www.concentric.net/~erick

Mike Boelter

unread,
Sep 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/24/97
to

I can see a few possibilities arising from the problems reported by
Mr. Robinson.

1) Large Wharhouse sellers ala Amazon.com not being under the
constraints to turn over its stock in rapid order will be the way to go
for book buying. It seems that what has happened is that books are being
treated almost like periodicals i.e. the August issue is in by June 1st
and removed from the shelves by July 15th.

2) With the ever increasing costs of paperback books I have gone
over to buying the books I want from Science Fiction Bookclub. Prices
in many cases are only a bit higher than the paperbacks and if you buy
them in sets are often the same as or even cheaper.

3) Look for an inexpensive flatscreen display with CD rom or
similar reader internal to it. Books will be published on Disk and may
even be downloaded to writable disks or flashcard type cards. A number
of problems could arise here but the savings would be enormous. Once the
master copy is at the 'book' sellers your inventory is a disk back up or
hard drive space. If the 'drive' is full (your 'book' is out of print)
it might take over night for some one to send you your copy in E-mail to
load into your reader machine.

Note too that such a machine would have several advantages. You
could select the font, and font size (important for folks who are
beginning to need their bifocals or are visually impaired at any age.)
Supplementary programs to run in the background of the the machine might
be a scrolling function to teach you to speed read. In addition Stories
could include hyper links to maps or charts useful to keep track of the
story.

Say 'War and Peace' listing all the names, patrynames and nicknames
of the characters. Or with a historical novel the family tree of the
royal house in question. Or 'The Lord of the Rings' with maps that show
you where in Middle Earth you are in the story.

Costs for CD Roms have come down enough that they could easily
compete with paper books and then some.

Tir...@aol.com


Full Name

unread,
Sep 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/24/97
to Buz O.


Buz O. wrote:

> The Space-Crime Continuum wrote:
> >
> >Snip some good stuff for sake of space<
>
> SNIP
>
> Let's say, that this new technology starts being used by college
> students
> to purchase and use with their college text.
>

Let's.

> Have you seen the price of college text lately? Heck $600 to $1000 a
> semester isn't unbeknownst to happen.
>

See 'em all the time (look at the headers). Paid $80 for a Quantum Mechanics

textbook this semester.

> Buying a $200 reader (which I think is an outrageous price and am of
> the opinion, that the reader will eventually be in the $35 to $50 range,
> like Sony's "Walkman" ended up being priced at to achieve market
> saturation)
> and a bunch of $10 to $12 disk for their textbooks will seem and
> incredible
> bargin. Once these readers start to filter out into the general
> population
> (maybe a 2 to 5 year proposition) then there will be the demand for the
> entertainment titles to appear... but there will be an almost immediate
> demand from the students themselves.

SNIP

blink, blink.

I can't write on this. I can't highlight or make notes. And my eyes hurt
when I look at it for very long at all. (I've been reading rasfw for less
than an hour, and my eyes are killing me now.) I can't photocopy
text, equations, and diagrams and shrink them down onto notecards,
I can't scan something into the computer...

And if theft of $80 calculators is a problem on campuses today
(and it *is*), what's going to happen with these $200 readers?
Yes, I know some students have laptop computers. But I don't.
Most of us don't. We can't afford them, and even if we could,
the security risk/short halflife wouldn't be worth the investment.

It's a great idea, though.


> > Think about it this way -- if the reader costs $200-$300, which sounds
> > pretty reasonable to me, then the person buying should reasonably
> > expect to be able to read $200 worth of books over a year or so. If we
> > price the books themselves at $3.00 (again, not an unreasonable price
> > -- it lets you make money while still looking cheap next to a physical
> > book), then you get an equation that how many books you have to read
> > before you save money as a result of buying a Bookboy:
> >
> > $200+ ($3.00 times X) = X times $8.00
> >

I don't average $8.00 a book for leisure reading, and I wouldn't
use this for textbooks for the reasons listed above. Come to
think of it, I doubt I'd use this for leisure reading - my eyes hurt.

I almost never pay more than $6/book for fun stuff (read: not
ordered by a professor), and my used-bookstore habit keeps
the average WAY down. And yes, I do feel guilty about the
royalties bit - why do you think I have the occasional $6 splurge?

Before someone asks... No, I don't have any strange eye disorder.
I'm myopic and I wear glasses. A lot of us are and do. And my eyes hurt.

> SNIP

> > P.S. And if anybody thinks this has no relation to say,
> > "alt.books.isaac-asimov", chew on this: as of last month, THE STARS
> > LIKE DUST and THE CURRENTS OF SPACE were "out of stock indefinitely"
> > at Bantam Doubleday Dell. Think it can't happen to your favorite
> > author? It already *is* happening . . .

THIS sort of thing is crazy-making.

Vernita

gor...@fas.harvard.edu


John Palmer

unread,
Sep 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/24/97
to

On 23 Sep 1997 21:13:50 GMT, stard...@mindspring.com (Lee S.
Billings) wrote:

>
>Well, for one thing, it's hard to imagine _Starship Troopers_ without
>the power suits.

Easiest thing in the world. They weren't important to the
plotline. They were the "mobile" part of the "mobile infantry", but
they weren't important to what was going on.

> I
>was willing to grant that they wouldn't be able to do justice to the
>philosophy

Word is that they have a draft; conscription is wholeheartedly
preached *AGAINST* in Starship Troopers. The entire point of the book
was volunteering to serve a need greater than your individual self.


Kevin B. O'Brien

unread,
Sep 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/24/97
to

In the year 3997, a time capsule was opened. Inside was a single
message from cro...@access.digex.net (Francis A. Ney, Jr.) who
wrote:

>> > And thus the great Urban Legend (in effect) of Thor Power Tools rolls
>> > on,
>> > perpetuated time and again in classic urban legend fashion: "I don't
>> > really know what I'm talking about, but I heard that. . . . "
>>

>> Yeah, yeah...well, that's what I was told too, that the backstock was
>> now subject to taxation as assets where it had not been before. I
>> *believe* (though my memory is occasionally suspect) that I was told
>> this by book reps, back when I was in the biz myself. Unless someone
>> else wants to verify, I'll get back to you when I can check it for
>> myself.
>

>I work for the IRS. Consider it verified.


>
>
>---
>Frank Ney WV/EMT-B VA/EMT-A N4ZHG LPWV NRA(L) GOA CCRKBA JPFO
>Sponsor, BATF Abuse page http://www.access.digex.net/~croaker/batfabus.html
>West Virginia Coordinator, Libertarian Second Amendment Caucus

>NOTICE: Flaming email received will be posted to the appropriate newsgroups
>- --

>"Whether the authorities be invaders or merely local tyrants, the
>effect of such [gun] laws is to place the individual at the mercy of
>the state, unable to resist."
> - Robert Heinlein, in a 1949 letter concerning _Red Planet_

Sig left in for comment. Meaning no disrespect to Mr. Ney, who
probably is kind to children and calls his mother regularly, but
does anyone else find it hilarious that a Libertarian works for the
IRS?


--
Kevin B. O'Brien TANSTAAFL
ko...@ix.netcom.com
"God made an idiot for practice. Then He made a school board."
Mark Twain

Help fight SPAM. Join CAUCE. http://www.cauce.org/

James Nicoll

unread,
Sep 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/24/97
to

In article <3426F4...@compuserve.com>,
Sam Yorko <JOATno...@compuserve.com> wrote:

snip

>From what I understand, the gummit went and changed the rules on
>taxation of backstock books, such that it became economically poison to
>keep anything in the warehouse. Something like an inventory tax on the
>cover price of the books, if I disremember.....

In general, money invested in a publisher gets a lower return
than money invested in, oh, a software company. That makes it hard to
attract investment money and in turn puts a fair amount of pressure
on publishers to make the most of profits they do make.

The domination of the retail market by a few big chains doesn't
help either. If Barnes and Nobles, Borders and Coles all decline to
carry midlist books, that will have a much bigger effect than if
Wordsworth, Bakka and A Small Bookstore do carry midlist.

Is there some way to put a cap on the size of bookstore chains?
US banks are limited in size, I believe. Could something similar be
done to bookchains before they reduce the industry to selling only
Clancy and King?

James Nicoll
--
About this time, I started getting depressed. Probably the late hour and
the silence. I decided some music would cheer me up.
Boy, that Billie Holliday can sing.
_Why I Hate Saturn_, Kyle Baker

Dan Goodman

unread,
Sep 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/25/97
to

In article <3429DA...@pop3.concentric.net>,

Erick Vermillion-Salsbury aka Cali4nia <er...@pop3.concentric.net> wrote:
>Kevin B. O'Brien wrote:
>> >"Whether the authorities be invaders or merely local tyrants, the
>> >effect of such [gun] laws is to place the individual at the mercy of
>> >the state, unable to resist."
>> > - Robert Heinlein, in a 1949 letter concerning _Red Planet_
>>
>> Sig left in for comment. Meaning no disrespect to Mr. Ney, who
>> probably is kind to children and calls his mother regularly, but
>> does anyone else find it hilarious that a Libertarian works for the
>> IRS?
>
>Speaking as a fellow libertarian, it seems like a sound strategy to me.
>*Someone* needs to keep an eye on those wacky folks :>

But does that require joining the movement, rather than just observing
libertarianism from the outside?

Then again, some libertarians show what might be considered signs of
sanity. Two of the three MN Libertarian Party members I have most contact
with enthusiastically supported Bob Dole for President.

I did not ask why they considered Dole the candidate most likely to apply
libertarian principles if elected.
--
Dan Goodman
dsg...@visi.com
http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html
Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much.

Evelyn C. Leeper

unread,
Sep 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/25/97
to

In article <6051an$i...@panix2.panix.com>,

Richard Newsome <new...@panix.com> wrote:
> You know, I went down to my local Barnes & Noble today, and counted the
> number of books in the science fiction section, and they had 2500 different
> titles. Only 500 of those were in the "Star Trek/Robotech/Dragonlance/Star

> Wars/etc" sf series section. So there were 2000 different paperback titles in
> straight sf, of which 4 were by Spider Robinson.

I'm not going to get into this argument, but I would like to commend
Mr. Newsome (and recommend his methods) to the people here who fling
around claims and statistics pulled, so far as I can tell, out of thin
air.

It may be true that his local B&N is atypical, or that there is some
factor that he has missed, but by Ghod, he went out and collected some
real data before stating his opinions on it, which is about as common
today as the Great Auk.
--
Evelyn C. Leeper | ele...@lucent.com
+1 732 957 2070 | http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4824
Life is not a "brief candle." It is a splendid torch that I want to make burn
as brightly as possible before handing it on to future generations. -- GBS

Francis A. Ney, Jr.

unread,
Sep 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/25/97
to

In article <875123649snz@ibfs._nospam_demon.co.uk> nojay@ibfs._nospam_demon.co.uk writes:

> > I work for the IRS.
>

> *Everybody* works for the IRS...

Including those who don't want to...

> BTW were you the IRS man who bought a KGB ID card off the Russian fans
> at Intersection?

Didn't have the money to go.

> "KGB, most feared organisation on planet!" Purchaser flashes his IRS ID.
> "Hokay, KGB, second most feared organisation on planet!"

ROTFL!


---
Frank Ney WV/EMT-B VA/EMT-A N4ZHG LPWV NRA(L) GOA CCRKBA JPFO
Sponsor, BATF Abuse page http://www.access.digex.net/~croaker/batfabus.html
West Virginia Coordinator, Libertarian Second Amendment Caucus
NOTICE: Flaming email received will be posted to the appropriate newsgroups
- --

The Space-Crime Continuum

unread,
Sep 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/25/97
to

Full Name <user...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote:

>
>
>Buz O. wrote:
>
>
>> Buying a $200 reader (which I think is an outrageous price and am of
>> the opinion, that the reader will eventually be in the $35 to $50 range,
>> like Sony's "Walkman" ended up being priced at to achieve market
>> saturation)
>> and a bunch of $10 to $12 disk for their textbooks will seem and
>> incredible
>> bargin. Once these readers start to filter out into the general
>> population
>> (maybe a 2 to 5 year proposition) then there will be the demand for the
>> entertainment titles to appear... but there will be an almost immediate
>> demand from the students themselves.
>

>I can't write on this. I can't highlight or make notes. And my eyes hurt
>when I look at it for very long at all. (I've been reading rasfw for less
>than an hour, and my eyes are killing me now.) I can't photocopy
>text, equations, and diagrams and shrink them down onto notecards,
>I can't scan something into the computer...
>

I hate to skitter over onto the other side of the argument <g>, but
these problems may be solvable. I can definitely see Bookboys that
allow notetaking, highlighting, and that can (with an attachment)
print out or export text selections, equations and diagrams.

Of course (skittering once more onto my side), all these features
would add cost and complexity to something that needs to be simple and
inexpensive if it is to succeed in a mass market. Not to mention
notetaking and highlighting features force you to highlight the
programmer's way, not whatever idiosyncratic way helps you learn. But
in all fairness, I have to admit that the problems above may be
solvable.

>And if theft of $80 calculators is a problem on campuses today
>(and it *is*), what's going to happen with these $200 readers?

[shudder] Hadn't even thought of that one, but you're right. And as
for grade and high schoolers, these things are going to have to be
incredibly rugged to survive the treatment they're going to take as
little Jonny Student goes about his daily business of playing,
fighting and and getting dirty. Many of my high school friends went
through a couple of Walkmen a year -- those things are going to have
to be very cheap or very sturdy.

Again, solvable problems. But you can't ignore that fact that the
mass-market paperback has already solved most of these problems by
being simple, relatively durable, and inexpensive enough to replace if
necessary. (Well, they *used* to be inexpensive and replaceable. They
aren't anymore, which is why we're here today.)

>
>I almost never pay more than $6/book for fun stuff (read: not
>ordered by a professor),

Hope you're not looking forward to much frontlist reading next year --
the typical midlist book coming into the store this year is $5.99.
(Many are $6.99 and most of the big names are already $7.99), and
they've been going up about .50 to a 1.00 each year. I sell 'em, and I
*still* think this rapid price spiral is stupid . . .

Used books are a good thing, though, even if I've noticed the pickings
are starting to get slimmer there, too. (If there's only 25,000 copies
of Robinson's new Callahan's book, for instance, and most of them stay
in the hands of his fans, it may be rather hard to hunt it down in the
used book stores . . . )


yours,

Chris
To reply via email, remove the "SPAMBLOCK" from our address above.
THE SPACE-CRIME CONTINUUM 92 King Street
science fiction, mysteries and games Northampton, MA 01060

spac...@crocker.com http://www.io.com/~aylott/

Kathryn Holmes

unread,
Sep 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/25/97
to

Curt Sampson (c...@cynic.portal.ca) wrote:
: In article <606rsj$b...@scooby.beloit.edu>,
: Kathryn Holmes <holm...@beloit.edu> wrote:

: >I mostly just


: >listen to music on the Radio rather than buy any and I know that does not
: >put any money in the pockets of the artists.

: That's quite untrue. Artists are paid when their songs are played
: regularly on the radio; the radio stations pay fees to cover this.

: >Nevertheless I cringe (but do
: >not speak up) when I hear (or read) about people who build up their music
: >collection by making copies rather than buying.

: In this case, yes, the artists see no money.

: cjs
: --
I knew the artists got played for songs played on the radio but had
forgotten it. I think DJs are also supposed to have some way to compensate
the Artists for the recordings they play. A few years ago Square Dance
clubs who use callers who use records were warned about making sure the
callers were members of the proper organization (I forget which) that took
care of such things. I do not know if the callers have to keep a 'play
list' but there was a concern.

-Shadowdancer

Brice D. Fleckenstein

unread,
Sep 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/25/97
to Sanford E. Walke IV

> It's like CDs.
> Including packaging and shipping, it might cost the record company $5 to put
> a CD in the store. The actual disk itself cost less than a dollar to press.
> Yet they charge $15 for them. 300% markup. Must be nice.
>

Not quite true - there are not only middlemen (at least ONE layer in
most cases) but also advertising expenses and royalties to the artist to
factor in.

Not that the record companies are going BROKE, mind you, as a general
rule....

Glenn Lyford

unread,
Sep 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/25/97
to

In article <3426F4...@compuserve.com>, JOATno...@compuserve.com
is rumored to have said:

>From what I understand, the gummit went and changed the rules on
>taxation of backstock books, such that it became economically poison to
>keep anything in the warehouse. Something like an inventory tax on the
>cover price of the books, if I disremember.....

Actually, they decided to charge the tax for the print run when it
was PRINTED, and not when it was SOLD, so vendors could no longer
keep a non- or slow-seller on the shelves, or they'd have to kick
in for the higher taxes. The books sent back/destroyed are deducted
from the tax...

Inventory taxes in general have gone up for business in the last few
decades. Manufacturing companies no longer carry old parts, old
process machinery, etc. because they are taxed heavily on just having
it. A lot of ingeneous mechanical solutions to problems have to
wait to be re-invented, because the originals were tossed to dodge
the tax man...
Lurking again,
--Glenn


Sanford E. Walke IV

unread,
Sep 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/25/97
to

Brice D. Fleckenstein (nos...@surf-ici.com) wrote:
>> It's like CDs.
>> Including packaging and shipping, it might cost the record company $5 to put
>> a CD in the store. The actual disk itself cost less than a dollar to press.
>> Yet they charge $15 for them. 300% markup. Must be nice.

> Not quite true - there are not only middlemen (at least ONE layer in
>most cases) but also advertising expenses and royalties to the artist to
>factor in.

> Not that the record companies are going BROKE, mind you, as a general
>rule....

No, but record stores are. Have you noticed how smaller stores are going out
of business, and chains are taking over? That's primarily because the instore
markup on CDs is tiny compared to what it was on LPs and tapes. (I know the
owner of a local used record store, and he gave some amazing numbers.)


--
Sandy se...@izzy.net
I don't speak for anyone but myself, and sometimes not even that.

P Nielsen Hayden

unread,
Sep 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/25/97
to

In article <60e83f$glt$3...@bashir.ici.net>, gly...@ici.net (Glenn Lyford) wrote:
>In article <3426F4...@compuserve.com>, JOATno...@compuserve.com
>is rumored to have said:
>
>>From what I understand, the gummit went and changed the rules on
>>taxation of backstock books, such that it became economically poison to
>>keep anything in the warehouse. Something like an inventory tax on the
>>cover price of the books, if I disremember.....
>
>Actually, they decided to charge the tax for the print run when it
>was PRINTED, and not when it was SOLD, so vendors could no longer
>keep a non- or slow-seller on the shelves, or they'd have to kick
>in for the higher taxes. The books sent back/destroyed are deducted
>from the tax...

Not entirely wrong, but a little confused on the details. Really, for a good
overview of this, read http://www.sfwa.org/bulletin/articles/thor.htm. It's
short.

-----
Patrick Nielsen Hayden : p...@panix.com : http://www.panix.com/~pnh
Tor Books : http://www.tor.com


Vernita Gordon

unread,
Sep 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/25/97
to The Space-Crime Continuum

The Space-Crime Continuum wrote:
>
> Vernita Gordon <gor...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Buz O. wrote:
> >
> >

> > >[SNIP - students will want to use these things to read textbooks.]


> >
> >I can't write on this. I can't highlight or make notes. And my eyes hurt
> >when I look at it for very long at all. (I've been reading rasfw for less
> >than an hour, and my eyes are killing me now.) I can't photocopy
> >text, equations, and diagrams and shrink them down onto notecards,
> >I can't scan something into the computer...
> >
>
> I hate to skitter over onto the other side of the argument <g>, but
> these problems may be solvable. I can definitely see Bookboys that
> allow notetaking, highlighting, and that can (with an attachment)
> print out or export text selections, equations and diagrams.
>

Don't get me wrong. I *like* this idea. I think it is WAY COOL. However,
I am also a graduate student and have therefore been buying textbooks
for a LONG TIME and have been using textbooks for an even longer time-
the vast majority of my life, at this point. And I, as a professional
student (really! They've started paying me to do this!), have serious
doubts about the viability of Bookcritter as a textbook reader.

This attatchment to Bookthing - am I going to need some sort of special
card or thingamabob in the computer before I can export to it? What about
students who don't own their own computers (I don't)? Are our schools
going to pony up the $$$$ needed to equip all their computers/printers with
these Bookaminnie attatchments? I don't think so. And even if they
were willing to, I'd rather they spent the $$$$ on something else.

> Of course (skittering once more onto my side), all these features
> would add cost and complexity to something that needs to be simple and
> inexpensive if it is to succeed in a mass market.

Yep. Which leads to another point. I am a technophile. I like playing
with gadgets like this (at least until my eyes start hurting. Haven't
seen any responses to that point, btw.). What about the technophobes,
the ones who can barely do email and vcr's (if that)? They're there,
and they're college student. And for what it's worth, my humanities-major
type friends almost always had to pay a LOT more for books than I did. I'm
not saying that all humanities-type people are technophobes. I'm just
contribting data points.

> Not to mention
> notetaking and highlighting features force you to highlight the
> programmer's way, not whatever idiosyncratic way helps you learn. But
> in all fairness, I have to admit that the problems above may be
> solvable.
>

I'm sure they're solvable (almost everything is, given enough time and
money). I'm just not sure that I'll like the solution, or that the
resulting product will be, for me and people like me, better or more
cost-effective than old-style books.

[SNIP - discussion of theft and general rough usage problems]

> Again, solvable problems. But you can't ignore that fact that the
> mass-market paperback has already solved most of these problems by
> being simple, relatively durable, and inexpensive enough to replace if
> necessary. (Well, they *used* to be inexpensive and replaceable. They
> aren't anymore, which is why we're here today.)
>
> >
> >I almost never pay more than $6/book for fun stuff (read: not
> >ordered by a professor),
>
> Hope you're not looking forward to much frontlist reading next year --

I'm not. Weep. Unless some individual such as yourself kindly offers
to subsidize (heavily!) my frontlist reading. {{hint!}} Fortunately,
my tastes are ecclectic enough and I'm young enough that used bookstores
still have a lot of things that I haven't read and want to.

> the typical midlist book coming into the store this year is $5.99.
> (Many are $6.99 and most of the big names are already $7.99), and
> they've been going up about .50 to a 1.00 each year. I sell 'em, and I
> *still* think this rapid price spiral is stupid . . .
>

gnash, moan

> Used books are a good thing, though, even if I've noticed the pickings
> are starting to get slimmer there, too. (If there's only 25,000 copies
> of Robinson's new Callahan's book, for instance, and most of them stay
> in the hands of his fans, it may be rather hard to hunt it down in the
> used book stores . . . )
>

I did, for the record, buy _Callahan's Legacy_ new.

Enjoying this a *lot* more than stat mech homework,

Vernita
gor...@fas.harvard.edu

PS - My eyes still hurt.

Nancy Lebovitz

unread,
Sep 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/25/97
to

In article <3434ffcd....@nntp.best.ix.netcom.com>,

Kevin B. O'Brien <ko...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>In the year 3997, a time capsule was opened. Inside was a single
>message from cro...@access.digex.net (Francis A. Ney, Jr.) who
>wrote:
>>
>>I work for the IRS. Consider it verified.

>>---
>>Frank Ney WV/EMT-B VA/EMT-A N4ZHG LPWV NRA(L) GOA CCRKBA JPFO
>>Sponsor, BATF Abuse page http://www.access.digex.net/~croaker/batfabus.html
>>West Virginia Coordinator, Libertarian Second Amendment Caucus
>>NOTICE: Flaming email received will be posted to the appropriate newsgroups
>>- --
>>"Whether the authorities be invaders or merely local tyrants, the
>>effect of such [gun] laws is to place the individual at the mercy of
>>the state, unable to resist."
>> - Robert Heinlein, in a 1949 letter concerning _Red Planet_
>
>Sig left in for comment. Meaning no disrespect to Mr. Ney, who
>probably is kind to children and calls his mother regularly, but
>does anyone else find it hilarious that a Libertarian works for the
>IRS?
>
He's not the only one. I can't remember if he was the person who
told me that libertarians can handle working for the IRS because
they're used to being hated.

--
Nancy Lebovitz (nan...@universe.digex.net)

October '96 calligraphic button catalogue available by email!


Nancy Lebovitz

unread,
Sep 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/25/97
to

In article <342A6A...@fas.harvard.edu>,

Vernita Gordon <gor...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote:
>The Space-Crime Continuum wrote:
>>
>> Of course (skittering once more onto my side), all these features
>> would add cost and complexity to something that needs to be simple and
>> inexpensive if it is to succeed in a mass market.
>
>Yep. Which leads to another point. I am a technophile. I like playing
>with gadgets like this (at least until my eyes start hurting. Haven't
>seen any responses to that point, btw.). What about the technophobes,
>the ones who can barely do email and vcr's (if that)? They're there,
>and they're college student. And for what it's worth, my humanities-major
>type friends almost always had to pay a LOT more for books than I did. I'm
>not saying that all humanities-type people are technophobes. I'm just
>contribting data points.
>
I may have a partial solution to the sore eyes problem. In _The
Handbook of Self-Healing_ by Meier Schneider, it's suggested that
part of the eye-strain from computers is caused by people not
using their peripheral vision.

I just strung some Christmas lights around my screen (but a couple
of feet away from it), and I can read for at least a couple of
hours longer in comfort than usual. (The lights are set on sparkle-
flash--get the multiple choice kind.)

It looks silly and cheerful, which I consider a plus.

While this set-up isn't very portable, there might be some way of
getting a similar effect from glasses frames with LED's around
the edges.

If anyone else tries this, let me know if it helps.

Noel Lynne Figart (aka neko-chan)

unread,
Sep 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/25/97
to

On Wed, 24 Sep 1997 21:15:56 -0500, Mike Boelter
<nera...@earthlink.net> spouted in a burst of profound wisdom:

> 3) Look for an inexpensive flatscreen display with CD rom or
>similar reader internal to it. Books will be published on Disk and may
>even be downloaded to writable disks or flashcard type cards. A number
>of problems could arise here but the savings would be enormous. Once the
>master copy is at the 'book' sellers your inventory is a disk back up or
>hard drive space. If the 'drive' is full (your 'book' is out of print)
>it might take over night for some one to send you your copy in E-mail to
>load into your reader machine.
>

"I would adore something like this if it is compact enough. I am
enough of a bibliophile that I do like to have the warm comfort of
books that I can actually turn the PAGES to, but I have a bad habit of
wearing out my favorites. Also, it would be easier to carry several
books with you if you kept them on disc.

"Such a machine would HAVE to be waterproof, however, I also have a
bad habit of readng in the bathtub. (Moisture and heat are REALLY bad
for books!"


>
Noel, Axe of the BABs, Mum to King of the Babies
and She who truly Groks Coffee.
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/6419

"The best solution to oppressive and bigotted behavior is rarely
to respond exactly the same way to the "group" seen as doing it."
KAZ Vorpal

Sanford E. Walke IV

unread,
Sep 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/25/97
to

Full Name (user...@fas.harvard.edu) wrote:

>I can't write on this.

Why not? You can write on a Newton. Just use those cool little recordable
mini-disks for the texts.

>I can't highlight or make notes.

Why not? It's just a function of the reader.

>And my eyes hurt when I look at it for very long at all. (I've been reading
>rasfw for less than an hour, and my eyes are killing me now.)

Then get thee to an optometrist. I work on computers 8 hours a day with no
eye problems at all. (You might also try changing your background and
foreground color settings.)

>I can't photocopy text, equations, and diagrams and shrink them down onto
>notecards, I can't scan something into the computer...

HP has had infrared-link printers for *years* for their calculators. There's
no reason the same thing couldn't work for these readers. And not having at
least a serial port on the thing would be criminal. My HP48SX, which is at
least 5 years old, has both.

The real problem is that the "texts" won't cost $12, they'll still cost $80.
You know those books in the store didn't cost $80 to make. It's like CDs.


Including packaging and shipping, it might cost the record company $5 to put
a CD in the store. The actual disk itself cost less than a dollar to press.
Yet they charge $15 for them. 300% markup. Must be nice.

>Before someone asks... No, I don't have any strange eye disorder.


>I'm myopic and I wear glasses. A lot of us are and do. And my eyes hurt.

Then you need your prescription checked again. I'm myopic and wear contacts.
My eyes don't hurt.

Francis A. Ney, Jr.

unread,
Sep 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/25/97
to

> >Sig left in for comment. Meaning no disrespect to Mr. Ney, who
> >probably is kind to children

Who don't bite.

> >and calls his mother regularly, but

I try. Email works, too.

> >does anyone else find it hilarious that a Libertarian works for the
> >IRS?
>
> He's not the only one. I can't remember if he was the person who
> told me that libertarians can handle working for the IRS because
> they're used to being hated.

I wish I was, but you do have a point. Mormons fit this category as well.

Actually, there are a number of IRS employees driven to the libertarian fold
(small-l if not big-L) just by what goes on in this agency. Take a good look
at the senate hearings this week, which will produce a lot of bluster but no
real reform of operations. Pity, that.

In my case, it was more I needed a job and they offered one. Computer geeks
need to eat, too. I'll be more than happy to blow this popsicle stand once a
decent contract comes my way, even if I have to work for the Anti-Walt
(Disney).

Ross TenEyck

unread,
Sep 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/25/97
to

[Comments on a portable Newton-like bookreading device]

Personally, I don't see it catching on. Printed books are too convenient,
and there are too many hassles with a portable reader.

What I *do* see is improvements in book printing technology, such that we
essentially have "print-on-demand" publishing. So, perhaps you go to the
store, or just sit at home, and browse through the book index, and then you
say, "I want this one," and *whiiirrrr* *kchunk* there you are -- a brand
spanking new book, just for you. You might even be able to specify
paperback vs. hardcover, or large-print edition, or have optional
illustrations at added cost, or whatever.

You'd need to solve the copy-protection problem; otherwise there'd be
pirate copies of any popular book. This doesn't seem insuperable;
perhaps the publisher could maintain an encryption key for every book,
or something. Since the per-book royalty can't be that much, you
wouldn't have to do too much before it becomes cheaper to just buy
the book legitimately.

From the publisher's point of view, this is great: all they have to
provide is data, and they get royalties for every copy printed. There
would probably be a huge mushrooming in "small" publishers, since the
overhead -- whatever it takes to process the author's scribblings into
the correct format, and provide the data to those who need it, while
maintaining the accounting and such -- would be so low.

I don't see the publishers going out of business, replaced by people
publishing their own books out of their own homes, although I'm sure
there would be some of that -- the publishers, among other things, do
guarantee a certain minimal quality in anything they stick their name
on. There would be a lot more books "in print," though, since the
risk to the publisher would be low.

From the retailer's point of view, I see an intermediate stage where
they like it too: the bookprinting device is in their store, and all
they have to stock is supplies for it. Eventually, the technology
gets cheap enough that people have bookprinters in their own homes,
and there are no more book retailers; you buy direct from the publisher.

And, presumably, you could still read books the books online if you
wanted to... although, given the choice, I would just about always want
a printed copy instead. Ever read any of the Project Gutenberg books
online? Using a desktop system with a much better monitor than anything
we can make portable so far? It's still a pain in the butt. Printed
words rule.

--
================== http://weber.u.washington.edu/~teneyck/ =================
Ross TenEyck Seattle WA | I saw a dragon in the shape of a kite, riding
ten...@u.washington.edu | the wind ribbon-wise to amuse the children;
Tsuki ni kawatte oshioki yo! | he winked at me from one golden eye.

Larry Caldwell

unread,
Sep 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/25/97
to

In article <34276C...@surf-ici.com>,

"Brice D. Fleckenstein" <ci...@surf-ici.com> wrote:

> > Yeah, yeah...well, that's what I was told too, that the backstock was
> > now subject to taxation as assets where it had not been before.

> It's called "Property Tax" in Indiana, and is NOT a new thing. I used
> to HATE figuring it up on my stock, back when I owned/ran a
> bookstore....

Taxes are certainly a business expense, and if a company increases their
inventory assets during a year it is taxed as corporate income. There are
a lot of other factors militating against large inventory businesses. The
USA has very low taxes compared to the rest of the developed world.

The biggest problem with maintaining a large inventory is capital cost.
Let's say you have $10 million. You can put that in a CD and get back a
conservative $600,000. If you put it into a business, you have to
expect a 6% return just to figure you're breaking even. Now being in
business is a high risk investment, so you really need to look for a
risk capital return of 10% minimum, or a million bucks a year.

Now figure that operations and facilities cost you half a million a year,
and your margin is 15% on a $10 million inventory. If you sell every
last book in your warehouse, you make as much money as you could have
made in a money market account. In other words, you break even, and
aren't ahead a nickel for all your hard work. To beat the game, you
have to move *more* than your total inventory in sales each year.

And that's why nobody stores books. That's also why nobody stores lumber
or hardware, and why chain stores mark down clothing to a fraction of
retail for clearance. If it isn't moving, it's putting you out of
business.

Modern industry has gone to a "just in time" manufacturing strategy.
They have small production lines that run just enough units to meet
anticipated demand. In most cases, you can't go out and buy a window
any more. The retailer sends the order to the factory, where they
punch it into the computer. Six weeks later you take delivery.

Windows are a high demand item, so it pays somebody to put together
100 acre automated factories to make them, and the price has gone
down. Low demand items don't have the economy of scale, so the
price has gone up.

You see the same thing in publishing. It's nothing to pay $50 for
a technical book. It's a low demand item. You can find whole shelves
of romance novels for next to nothing. They're high demand, mass
production items. I already pay about $12 for my average paperback,
since I buy a lot of trade format novels. My tastes are not mass
market tastes, so if I want a book I have to pay a premium.

Sadly, not many authors are going to get rich on my reading tastes.
Lots of them won't make a living at all, so I guess it's fortunate
my tastes are a minority opinion.

-- Larry

Cave ab homine unius libri.

Vernita Gordon

unread,
Sep 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/25/97
to Nancy Lebovitz

Nancy Lebovitz wrote:
>
> In article <342A6A...@fas.harvard.edu>,
> Vernita Gordon <gor...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote:

[SNIP - When I read a computer screen for very long at all, my eyes hurt.
Like now.]


> I may have a partial solution to the sore eyes problem. In _The
> Handbook of Self-Healing_ by Meier Schneider, it's suggested that
> part of the eye-strain from computers is caused by people not
> using their peripheral vision.
>

Sounds reasonable to me.


> I just strung some Christmas lights around my screen (but a couple
> of feet away from it), and I can read for at least a couple of
> hours longer in comfort than usual. (The lights are set on sparkle-
> flash--get the multiple choice kind.)
>

Sounds good. Cheap, safe (as long as your lights don't short out!)
solution. Problem: I, as I said in my previous posting, don't own
my own computer. How am I going to convince the people in charge of
the various Harvard computer labs that I use to string up/let me string
up Christmas lights (We don't *have* Christmas Break here. We'd have to
call them Winter Holiday lights, or something...and this is really not
the issue at hand, now is it?) in their labs near their computers? This is
pretty far off-topic now, and I'll stop.

> It looks silly and cheerful, which I consider a plus.
>

Nearly always a plus.

> While this set-up isn't very portable, there might be some way of
> getting a similar effect from glasses frames with LED's around
> the edges.
>

I'd believe that. But, I already wear glasses, and they're heavy
enough as it is that I *already* walk around with painful red marks on
the bridge of my nose. What is something with a battery pack and LED's
going to weigh? Then again, given the low power levels needed to run
LED's (->small batteries) (and the strength of my prescription -> heavy
lenses), that might not be a problem. Anyone out there have more experience
with LED's in circuits than I do?


Vernita
gor...@fas.harvard.edu

Dr.Rob

unread,
Sep 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/25/97
to

Sanford E. Walke IV wrote:

> The real problem is that the "texts" won't cost $12, they'll still
> cost $80.
> You know those books in the store didn't cost $80 to make. It's like
> CDs.
> Including packaging and shipping, it might cost the record company $5
> to put
> a CD in the store. The actual disk itself cost less than a dollar to
> press.
> Yet they charge $15 for them. 300% markup. Must be nice.
>

Actually, when you apply this idea to textbooks, you're exactly right
about the cost still being $80, but not about the markup. I'm an
assistant professor of Physiology. A few years back I participated in a
textbook. It sold 240 copies, at $160/each! My royalties (total)
amount to 6$, the publisher still owes me because they won't write a
check for less than $10.

Now, let's examine the cost: I decide to write the *definitive* textbook
in Introductory Neuroscience. There are maybe 80 big Neuroscience
degree programs in the country, maybe 50 in the world that have more
than 5 graduate students a year. But let's assume a class of 10
students a year, in 25 institutions (after all, not everyone will use my
text), that's 250 textbooks a year. For each subsequent year, only half
as many since some students will sell theirs. In 3-5 years it's time to
update the text, so we may only sell 500-1000 text books. Now, my text
has 25 chapters, since it covers a lot of territory. For each chapter
except for the 1st and 25th, I invite a guest author who is an expert to
write about the part of the brain they know best. The usual royalty is
between $150-300 (one-time). Now, some chapters will have multiple
authors, but let's say we have a limit, $150 per author, or $300 shared
among two or more authors. Royalties for the guest authors alone will
run $3,450 to $6,900 alone. My editor's royalty is $300, plus two
chapters for a total of $600 (plus 3% per book). At best, the royalty
cost per book is $4, at worst it is $15. Consider this: getting any
pair of academics to write a chapter takes *months*. The usual lag time
is 2-3 years for a textbook, so you start writing the 2nd edition when
the first one hits the shelves. During the 2 years, you've used a
copyeditor's time, typists, typesetters, and let's not forget the most
expensive feature: illustrations. Just printing the page proofs is
expensive. If I want a color figure in a journal that takes
advertisements, it's $1000 per figure. For a text or nonadvertised
journal, it's 2-5 times that. The only difference with electronic
publishing is the final cost of paper and ink.

Finally, your textbook is released at $100 per book, and yes, it did
cost at least $80 to produce.

Caveat: This is to explain why *textbook* and *technical book* prices
will not be dropped by going to CD-ROMs

Dr.Rob

Rich and Nadyne Mielke

unread,
Sep 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/25/97
to

[snipped newsgroups line to alt.callahans only]

"Brice D. Fleckenstein" <nos...@surf-ici.com> had this to say:

[snip]

: And in that election, I'd say Dole might actually have BEEN the least
:objectional candidate - I DID vote against the current Traitor in Chief
:in '92, and again in '96 - but couldn't find anyone else I did NOT want
:to vote against in '96 to at least some MAJOR degree, so I wrote in John
:W. Campbell, jr. - who likely would make a better President from his
:grave than our current insult.

You do realise that your whole ballot was thrown out, don't you? If
you don't write in a valid candidate {and I'm pretty sure that lacking
a pulse would make your candidate invalid}, your -whole- ballot gets
tossed {not just your vote for President}.

/nad

David Kelsen

unread,
Sep 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/25/97
to

Louis RAPHAEL said -

LR> White/green/amber on a black background also helps. To avoid is black,
LR> small, proportional fonts on a bright white background.

FWIW, this is exactly the opposite of what I have been taught, and my personal
experience. The easiest screen for me to read is black letters on a bright
yellow background. As a programmer for 20 years, I have found that to be the
easiest on the eyes.

I don't recall the research done that got me to try this several years ago, but
I can certainly vouch for it.

<tsb>
David Kelsen theo...@mindspring.com Member, Team Amiga.
--
// Amiga... the computer for the creative mind.
\\//
\/ A3000/060 Montgomery Amiga Computer Enthusiasts (MACE)
--

Moosehead: great beer, and a new experience for the moose.


Vernita Gordon

unread,
Sep 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/25/97
to Nancy Lebovitz

Nancy Lebovitz wrote:
>
> In article <342A6A...@fas.harvard.edu>,
> Vernita Gordon <gor...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote:

[SNIP - When I read a computer screen for very long at all, my eyes hurt.
Like now.]


> I may have a partial solution to the sore eyes problem. In _The
> Handbook of Self-Healing_ by Meier Schneider, it's suggested that
> part of the eye-strain from computers is caused by people not
> using their peripheral vision.
>

Sounds reasonable to me.


> I just strung some Christmas lights around my screen (but a couple
> of feet away from it), and I can read for at least a couple of
> hours longer in comfort than usual. (The lights are set on sparkle-
> flash--get the multiple choice kind.)
>

Sounds good. Cheap, safe (as long as your lights don't short out!)

solution. Problem: I, as I said in my original posting, don't own

Vernita Gordon

unread,
Sep 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/25/97
to The Space-Crime Continuum

The Space-Crime Continuum wrote:
>
> Vernita Gordon <gor...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Buz O. wrote:
> >
> >

> > >[SNIP - students will want to use these things to read textbooks.]
> >

> >I can't write on this. I can't highlight or make notes. And my eyes hurt


> >when I look at it for very long at all. (I've been reading rasfw for less

> >than an hour, and my eyes are killing me now.) I can't photocopy


> >text, equations, and diagrams and shrink them down onto notecards,
> >I can't scan something into the computer...
> >
>

> I hate to skitter over onto the other side of the argument <g>, but
> these problems may be solvable. I can definitely see Bookboys that
> allow notetaking, highlighting, and that can (with an attachment)
> print out or export text selections, equations and diagrams.
>

Don't get me wrong. I *like* this idea. I think it is WAY COOL. However,
I am also a graduate student and have therefore been buying textbooks
for a LONG TIME and have been using textbooks for an even longer time-
the vast majority of my life, at this point. And I, as a professional
student (really! They've started paying me to do this!), have serious
doubts about the viability of Bookcritter as a textbook reader.

This attatchment to Bookthing - am I going to need some sort of special
card or thingamabob in the computer before I can export to it? What about
students who don't own their own computers (I don't)? Are our schools
going to pony up the $$$$ needed to equip all their computers/printers with
these Bookaminnie attatchments? I don't think so. And even if they
were willing to, I'd rather they spent the $$$$ on something else.

> Of course (skittering once more onto my side), all these features


> would add cost and complexity to something that needs to be simple and
> inexpensive if it is to succeed in a mass market.

Yep. Which leads to another point. I am a technophile. I like playing
with gadgets like this (at least until my eyes start hurting. Haven't
seen any responses to that point, btw.). What about the technophobes,
the ones who can barely do email and vcr's (if that)? They're there,
and they're college student. And for what it's worth, my humanities-major
type friends almost always had to pay a LOT more for books than I did. I'm
not saying that all humanities-type people are technophobes. I'm just
contribting data points.

> Not to mention

Ben

unread,
Sep 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/25/97
to

Mike Boelter <nera...@earthlink.net> wrote:

> 3) Look for an inexpensive flatscreen display with CD rom or
>similar reader internal to it. Books will be published on Disk and may
>even be downloaded to writable disks or flashcard type cards. A number
>of problems could arise here but the savings would be enormous. Once the
>master copy is at the 'book' sellers your inventory is a disk back up or
>hard drive space. If the 'drive' is full (your 'book' is out of print)
>it might take over night for some one to send you your copy in E-mail to
>load into your reader machine.

Mike, I actually designed something like that (minus the CD-ROM) back
in '85 or so. Couldn't find anyone who was interested - and BELIEVE
me, I went the rounds.

Updating the design would be piddly stuff. Now, if you could find
someone willing to produce it...

Ben

http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/5011

Brice D. Fleckenstein

unread,
Sep 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/25/97
to Dan Goodman

> >> Sig left in for comment. Meaning no disrespect to Mr. Ney, who
> >> probably is kind to children and calls his mother regularly, but

> >> does anyone else find it hilarious that a Libertarian works for the
> >> IRS?
> >
> >Speaking as a fellow libertarian, it seems like a sound strategy to me.
> >*Someone* needs to keep an eye on those wacky folks :>
>
> But does that require joining the movement, rather than just observing
> libertarianism from the outside?

In the case of the IRS, yes - they are VERY close mouthed about
policies.

8-(

> Then again, some libertarians show what might be considered signs of
> sanity. Two of the three MN Libertarian Party members I have most >contact with enthusiastically supported Bob Dole for President.

I like the Libertarian Party platform, but their choice of candidate
for President in the last election was, to be excessively polite, rather
less than inspired.

Until they start FIELDING some more reasonable candidates, I will
continue to be a Jeffersonian Republican....

And in that election, I'd say Dole might actually have BEEN the least
objectional candidate - I DID vote against the current Traitor in Chief
in '92, and again in '96 - but couldn't find anyone else I did NOT want
to vote against in '96 to at least some MAJOR degree, so I wrote in John
W. Campbell, jr. - who likely would make a better President from his
grave than our current insult.

--

Louis RAPHAEL

unread,
Sep 26, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/26/97
to

Nancy Lebovitz (nan...@universe.digex.net) wrote:
: I may have a partial solution to the sore eyes problem. In _The

: Handbook of Self-Healing_ by Meier Schneider, it's suggested that
: part of the eye-strain from computers is caused by people not
: using their peripheral vision.

White/green/amber on a black background also helps. To avoid is black,

small, proportional fonts on a bright white background.

If you need a NuStyle terminal, try a light-grey setting,
black-and-white. I find those bearable as well.

Louis

Jen Hamilton

unread,
Sep 26, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/26/97
to

Another problem with the BookMan idea is that while the data storage
material may last well-nigh forever, the format won't. I can go into
a library -- OK, a special library -- and get a book that's hundred of
years old, and use the same skills to read it that I use to read
a book I bought yesterday. But that's not true once you separate
the playback device from the data. Anyone remember LPs? 8-track?
78s? 5-inch floppies? 8-inch floppies?

THe newcomer sets her single on the bar, orders a Woodchuck. "Name's
Jennifer," she offers between swallows, "but every Tom, Dick, and Harry
is 'Jennifer' these days. Call me Roozer."

- Roozer
jham...@umdnj.edu


Cindy Wells

unread,
Sep 26, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/26/97
to

Welcome Roozer. May I buy you a drink? Cindy hands Mike a dollar.
Cindy Wells
--
Cindy Wells
(Grad - PChem - UIUC)
I have abandoned my search for truth and now I'm looking for ...
a good fantasy. (author: Ashleigh Brilliant)

Bill Dugan

unread,
Sep 26, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/26/97
to

On Thu, 25 Sep 1997 16:42:56 GMT, SPAMBLOC...@crocker.com (The
Space-Crime Continuum ) wrote:

snip

>Again, solvable problems. But you can't ignore that fact that the
>mass-market paperback has already solved most of these problems by
>being simple, relatively durable, and inexpensive enough to replace if
>necessary. (Well, they *used* to be inexpensive and replaceable. They
>aren't anymore, which is why we're here today.)

snip

>Hope you're not looking forward to much frontlist reading next year --

>the typical midlist book coming into the store this year is $5.99.
>(Many are $6.99 and most of the big names are already $7.99), and
>they've been going up about .50 to a 1.00 each year. I sell 'em, and I
>*still* think this rapid price spiral is stupid . . .

If current trends in price and quality continue, paperbacks will be
more expensive and less durable than computers in our lifetimes.

Belinda

unread,
Sep 26, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/26/97
to

>[Comments on a portable Newton-like bookreading device]

>Personally, I don't see it catching on. Printed books are too convenient,
>and there are too many hassles with a portable reader.

>What I *do* see is improvements in book printing technology, such that we
>essentially have "print-on-demand" publishing. So, perhaps you go to the
>store, or just sit at home, and browse through the book index, and then you
>say, "I want this one," and *whiiirrrr* *kchunk* there you are -- a brand
>spanking new book, just for you. You might even be able to specify
>paperback vs. hardcover, or large-print edition, or have optional
>illustrations at added cost, or whatever.

Great idea!

>You'd need to solve the copy-protection problem; otherwise there'd be
>pirate copies of any popular book. This doesn't seem insuperable;
>perhaps the publisher could maintain an encryption key for every book,
>or something. Since the per-book royalty can't be that much, you
>wouldn't have to do too much before it becomes cheaper to just buy
>the book legitimately.

Couldn't you just pay them to send you the data direct; like
modem-to-modem?
I transmit data in this fashion every day at work (in one form or
another)

>From the publisher's point of view, this is great: all they have to
>provide is data, and they get royalties for every copy printed. There
>would probably be a huge mushrooming in "small" publishers, since the
>overhead -- whatever it takes to process the author's scribblings into
>the correct format, and provide the data to those who need it, while
>maintaining the accounting and such -- would be so low.

>I don't see the publishers going out of business, replaced by people
>publishing their own books out of their own homes, although I'm sure
>there would be some of that -- the publishers, among other things, do
>guarantee a certain minimal quality in anything they stick their name
>on. There would be a lot more books "in print," though, since the
>risk to the publisher would be low.

I would probably see a lot small "publishers" of this type emerge,
too--it would be an excellent small business; sorta like what happened
with desktop publishing. In this insrance, I would think it would
become alot easier for a first-time novelist (of any genre) to become
exposed to a pretty vast audience.

>From the retailer's point of view, I see an intermediate stage where
>they like it too: the bookprinting device is in their store, and all
>they have to stock is supplies for it. Eventually, the technology
>gets cheap enough that people have bookprinters in their own homes,
>and there are no more book retailers; you buy direct from the publisher.

>And, presumably, you could still read books the books online if you
>wanted to... although, given the choice, I would just about always want
>a printed copy instead. Ever read any of the Project Gutenberg books
>online? Using a desktop system with a much better monitor than anything
>we can make portable so far? It's still a pain in the butt. Printed
>words rule.

I'm with you on that point. Of course the _process_ by which the
printing occurs--I could stand to keep a flexible mind out on that.

>--
>================== http://weber.u.washington.edu/~teneyck/ =================
>Ross TenEyck Seattle WA | I saw a dragon in the shape of a kite, riding
>ten...@u.washington.edu | the wind ribbon-wise to amuse the children;
>Tsuki ni kawatte oshioki yo! | he winked at me from one golden eye.

Belinda
"a Society which exchanges freedom for security deserves neither"


Belinda

unread,
Sep 26, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/26/97
to

>The Space-Crime Continuum wrote:
>>
>> Vernita Gordon <gor...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >Buz O. wrote:
>> >
>> >

>> > >[SNIP - students will want to use these things to read textbooks.]
>> >
>> >I can't write on this. I can't highlight or make notes. And my eyes hurt
>> >when I look at it for very long at all. (I've been reading rasfw for less
>> >than an hour, and my eyes are killing me now.) I can't photocopy
>> >text, equations, and diagrams and shrink them down onto notecards,
>> >I can't scan something into the computer...
>> >
>>
>> I hate to skitter over onto the other side of the argument <g>, but
>> these problems may be solvable. I can definitely see Bookboys that
>> allow notetaking, highlighting, and that can (with an attachment)
>> print out or export text selections, equations and diagrams.
>>

>Don't get me wrong. I *like* this idea. I think it is WAY COOL. However,
>I am also a graduate student and have therefore been buying textbooks
>for a LONG TIME and have been using textbooks for an even longer time-
>the vast majority of my life, at this point. And I, as a professional
>student (really! They've started paying me to do this!), have serious
>doubts about the viability of Bookcritter as a textbook reader.

snip (fears for expensive limiting availabilty)

>Yep. Which leads to another point. I am a technophile. I like playing
>with gadgets like this (at least until my eyes start hurting. Haven't
>seen any responses to that point, btw.). What about the technophobes,
>the ones who can barely do email and vcr's (if that)?

snip
snip


I have to admit that the problems above may be
>> solvable.
>>

>I'm sure they're solvable (almost everything is, given enough time and
>money).

>[SNIP - discussion of theft and general rough usage problems]

>> Again, solvable problems.
snip
>>

My response to the whole question, in view of several excellent points
made by those on several sides of this issue, would have to be
"Why reinvent the wheel?"
Print has worked pretty good so far; if it ain't broke why fix it?

I've really been enjoying reading y'all, BTW.

Belinda

Michael Hargreave Mawson

unread,
Sep 26, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/26/97
to

In article <60fftq$heq$3...@news.usit.net>, Belinda <rr...@usit.net> writes

>>[Comments on a portable Newton-like bookreading device]
>
>>Personally, I don't see it catching on. Printed books are too convenient,
>>and there are too many hassles with a portable reader.
>
>>What I *do* see is improvements in book printing technology, such that we
>>essentially have "print-on-demand" publishing. So, perhaps you go to the
>>store, or just sit at home, and browse through the book index, and then you
>>say, "I want this one," and *whiiirrrr* *kchunk* there you are -- a brand
>>spanking new book, just for you. You might even be able to specify
>>paperback vs. hardcover, or large-print edition, or have optional
>>illustrations at added cost, or whatever.
>
This is a bloody *brilliant* idea. I missed the original post for some
reason (hence I am replying to a reply), but did you mention whether you
had the design skills to spec this machine? Seriously, someone ought
to take this idea and run with it. The selection technology already
exists (for TV movies); all you would need would be the "printing press"
element. Personally, I would be happy with a computer printer and a
comb-binder, and would not require a traditionally-bound book. Hey - on
that basis, all you need is a web-site with credit card facilities and
downloadable zip files, and you can start selling books this way to the
millions of people who already have a computer, modem and printer.

Copyright exists for seventy years after the death of the author, IIRC,
so find some old sf books to start with (would Edgar Rice Burroughs
qualify? Surely Jules Verne and H. G. Wells would?); scan them;
convert to text files via OCR; load up your website and let us know
where to go...

ATB
--
Mike

Robert Billing

unread,
Sep 26, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/26/97
to

In article <342AA3...@fas.harvard.edu>
gor...@fas.harvard.edu "Vernita Gordon" writes:

> Sounds good. Cheap, safe (as long as your lights don't short out!)
> solution. Problem: I, as I said in my original posting, don't own
> my own computer. How am I going to convince the people in charge of

I have had a similar problem (on occasion bad enough to be off work).
However I have contrived a pair of small shaded fluorescent lights
which illuminate my desk and keyboard, without shining on the screen.
This seems to help with the eyestrain. The design is based on the
"script lights" beloved of TV production people which illuminate the
controls and paper on the desk, without reflecting off the monitor
stack behind it.

--
I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal
lover, I live near 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/
"There comes a point in the progress of any project which is usually
obscured by a notice reading: Danger, Engineers Testing" - Colin Kapp

Jim Pierce

unread,
Sep 26, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/26/97
to

Ben <ben-fu...@geocities.co> wrote:
[] Mike, I actually designed something like that (minus the CD-ROM) back

[] in '85 or so. Couldn't find anyone who was interested - and BELIEVE
[] me, I went the rounds.

And don't forget, the Xerox Palo Alto group that came up with
point and click, trackballs, and mice for computers, and a built-in
keypad in the keyboard also got turned down in 1968.

DJ.
--
Jim Pierce Bach. of Sc. Disclaimer:Standard.
" Miniature Crime Fighters !? I have to get out more..." Johnny Bad Note
[ from a Pinky and The Brain episode, from Animaniacs ]

Jim Pierce

unread,
Sep 26, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/26/97
to

Nancy Lebovitz <nan...@universe.digex.net> wrote:
[] I may have a partial solution to the sore eyes problem. In _The
[] Handbook of Self-Healing_ by Meier Schneider, it's suggested that
[] part of the eye-strain from computers is caused by people not
[] using their peripheral vision.

I worked in a University computer lab for 6 years. I noticed that
folks concentrate so hard, they forget to blink.

DJ.
--
Jim
"Must be a bad accident over there...
that looks like lawyers a-circling." Jake Vest.

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