Astrology and Religion : Any Contradiction?
Enoch
I am a Christian, and I am interested in astrology.
Does the bible tell us in any way that we should not
study astrology? This really confuses me.
Thanks in advance
Enoch
Haizen Paige
In article <34f1a42b...@news.erg.cuhk.edu.hk>, en...@cuhk.edu.hk
(Enoch) wrote:
Keep in mind to look into other translations of the Bible if you are the
most familiar with the King James version -- there is a definite Hebrew
word for "astrologer," and while it's not used in the KJ, it is used in
later translations. While certain passages in the Bible appear to condemn
the study and use of astrology, these are warnings against its misuse.
There are many astrological references in the Bible and the following
excerpt on the subject by Alan Leo goes into some of them:
"In our own Scriptures, both Old and New Testaments, we find abundant
evidence of the knowledge of the Science of Astrology. Knowing as we do
that the Chaldeans were the great teachers of historical times, and that
their religion, science and art was Astrology, we can readily understand
that Abram living in Ur of the Chaldees, Isaac married to a Chaldean wife,
Jacob, who lived 21 years in Padam Aram, and his sons brought up by
Chaldean mothers, were all thoroughly acquainted with the ideas and terms
of Astrology. In those times, the twelve signs of the Zodiac were the
twelve typical things, and so we find Joseph in his dream likening himself
and his family to the Sun, Moon and twelve Stars (or Zodiac.) Likewise,
Jacob blesses his twelve sons, and in those blessings we find a very
striking analogy to the characteristics of the twelve signs of the Zodiac.
"If we take the account written by Moses, an Initiate, of the Creation,
Fall, Flood etc., we find that it sets down for the people the traditions
of the faith as received from Mesopotamian sources and couched in
_Astrological terms_. For example: 'And God said Let there be lights in
the firmament of heaven . . . and let them be for signs, and for seasons
and for days and for years.' (Gen. i.) Again 'And God made two great
lights, the greater light to _rule_ by day, and the lesser light to _rule_
by night.' (Gen. i.)
"Later we find the Israelites soon after leaving Egypt being met by
Balaam, a Chaldean of Pethor, an Astrologer and prophet in communication
with the angel of the Lord who had been engaged by Balak the enemy of
Israel to curse Israel. (Numbers xxii.) The Chaldean custom on such
ceremonial occasions, was to build altars and sacrifice to the seven
planets. Thus we find that Baalam three times built seven altars, on each
of which he offered sacrifices and then prophesied of the Star which was
to arise out of Jacob. |
"In the prophetical books we find frequent mention of the Star worship of
Israel. Zephaniah speaks of 'Them that worship the hosts of Heaven upon
the housetops.' Isaiah speaks of the multitude of Astrological
consultations. Jeremiah speaks of the 'cakes to the queen of heaven.'
These prophets and others utter warnings against the use of the lower side
of Astrology, but those who understood the higher teaching not only used
it but defended it. Of these the accounts given in the books of Ezekiel
and Daniel give wonderful examples The Book of Daniel is a remarkable
instance of the assimilation of Chaldean knowledge by a faithful Jew, and
we find Daniel's proficiency immediately attributed to God. 'As for these
four children God gave them skill in all learning and wisdom, and Daniel
had understanding in all visions and dreams.' In Daniel's visions there
are several references to Astrological ideas, and in the Apocalypse in the
New Testament, we find many allusions to the Astrological visions of
Daniel and Ezekiel.
"In no part of the Christian Scriptures do we find Astrology mentioned
disapprovingly, and nowhere is the study of Astrology forbidden though we
_do_ find warnings as to its proper use. On the contrary we find from the
Song of Deborah and Barak a victory attributed to the courses of the Stars
for in Judge v. we read 'They fought from heaven; the stars in their
courses fought against Sisera.'
"Coming to the New Testament, the story of the Magi, those of the Birth of
Christ, and of the events accompanying the Crucifixion, show that the
people of that time had a star lore which perfectly harmonised with their
theology, and therefore could not help to look for Astrological
accompaniments to such great events as the Birth, Life, and Death of the
Messiah. Chaldean learning was also diffused among the early Christians,
and it has been said that the writer of the Apocalypse must have been an
Astrologer of the Chaldean school, who used term with which Asiatic
Christians were familiar, and who could turn to the books of Ezekiel and
Daniel for confirmation to convince his Hebrew readers. The Book of
Revelation which has been the greatest of all puzzles to theologians and
divine' has been said to be a great horoscope of the World's Destiny and
to contain within this vast horoscope the smaller horoscopes of the
nations."
____
Best wishes,
Haizen Paige
__
The Cosmic Palette
http://nen.sedona.net//haizen/
Keera A. Fox
Enoch <en...@cuhk.edu.hk> wrote:
> I am a Christian, and I am interested in astrology.
>
> Does the bible tell us in any way that we should not
> study astrology? This really confuses me.
>
The Bible tells us a lot of things - some of it self-contradictory. God
may have another opinion altogether. :-) If you read Deut.18:9-13 you
will see that "divination" is prohibited. Modern-day astrology is not
divination but a symbolic tool for understanding yourself and others
better. Astrology is also not a religion. My stock answer when people
ask me if I believe in astrology is, "No, I believe in God; I *use*
astrology."
--
****** Keera in Norway ******
* Think big. Shrink to fit. *
****** ka...@online.no ******
Paul Schlyter
In article <34f1a42b...@news.erg.cuhk.edu.hk>,
Enoch <en...@cuhk.edu.hk> wrote:
> I am a Christian, and I am interested in astrology.
>
> Does the bible tell us in any way that we should not
> study astrology? This really confuses me.
be burnt by the fire (presumably the fire from hell):
Book 23 Isaiah
--------------
047:013 Thou art wearied in the multitude of thy counsels. Let now the
astrologers, the stargazers, the monthly prognosticators,
stand up, and save thee from these things that shall come upon
thee.
047:014 Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them;
they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame:
there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before
it.
047:015 Thus shall they be unto thee with whom thou hast laboured,
even thy merchants, from thy youth: they shall wander every
one to his quarter; none shall save thee.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Schlyter, Swedish Amateur Astronomer's Society (SAAF)
Grev Turegatan 40, S-114 38 Stockholm, SWEDEN
e-mail: pau...@saaf.se paul.s...@ausys.se pa...@inorbit.com
WWW: http://spitfire.ausys.se/psr -- updated daily!
Claus Houlberg
pau...@electra.saaf.se,usenet writes:
>047:013 Thou art wearied in the multitude of thy counsels. Let now the
> astrologers, the stargazers, the monthly prognosticators,
> stand up, and save thee from these things that shall come upon
> thee.
But that just seems like common sense, Paul ... ;-)
A noted danish astrologer, Paul Mahler Dam, once i full ernest
proposed, that any astrologer doing these dayly, weekly or monthly
prognostics should be banned from the Danish Astrologers Union (DAF).
The proposal fell, though, as there is good money involved.
I think it was then he mentioned the word ..... oh well, I think
it's obvious.
—ch
Haizen Paige
In article <6cssbs$q...@electra.saaf.se>, pau...@electra.saaf.se (Paul
Schlyter) wrote:
> In article <34f1a42b...@news.erg.cuhk.edu.hk>,
> Enoch <en...@cuhk.edu.hk> wrote:
>
> > I am a Christian, and I am interested in astrology.
> >
> > Does the bible tell us in any way that we should not
> > study astrology? This really confuses me.
>
>
> Sure the bible condems astrology -- it says that astrologers should
> be burnt by the fire (presumably the fire from hell):
Well, there's nothing like a self-proclaimed pagan quoting the Bible to
bolster his argument against a subject he neither likes nor understands.
;-) Other than that, he apparently has no use for the Bible, as his long
history on this newsgroup can easily attest to.
It's also worth noting that Mr. Pagan uses quotes from the Old Testement
suggesting "that astrologers should be burnt by fire (presumably the fire
from hell)" when "hell" had _not_ even been invented yet. Perhaps, "Bible
scholar" this he is, he'd like to explain how this is possible?
[Long silence.]
The verses cited below cannot be properly understood when taken out of
context -- as they usually are by the grievously uninformed. They can only
be understood by reading them in context of the entire 47 Chapter of
Deuteronomy. Since just about everyone has a Bible around somewhere, pull
it out and go over this chapter again.
Astrologer Dick Jacobs, who incidentally was a former Methodist minister
for ten years, explains it this way:
<quote>
If one backs off and reads the whole 47th chapter, which is a cohesive
section intended to be read by itself, one finds that the prophet is
predicting the destruction and ruin of the Babylonian Empire in punishment
for the cruelty with which it had conquered and enslaved all the small
kingdoms of the Near and Middle East, including Judah. "God is going to
burn Babylon," Isaiah says, "and your great civilization, your learning,
your science can not save you from His wrath. Not even your famous
astrologers can save you." Isaiah's obvious intention is not to condemn
astrology, but to condemn Babylon and everything Babylonian.
It is precisely as if a Jew in Dachau had written a diatribe against
Hitler's Germany, saying "All your vaunted German Kultur, your Kant, your
Goethe, and your Wagner will not save you from the destruction God is
bringing upon Germany for your wickedness." No one would interpret such a
prophesy as a condemnation of Kant or Goethe or Wagner.
<unquote>
Now if someone has a question about what makes the tides go up and down,
Mr. Schlyter's opinion, since he's an amateur _astronomer_, would perhaps
have some value.
Haizen Paige
Sedona, AZ
> Book 23 Isaiah
> --------------
>
> 047:013 Thou art wearied in the multitude of thy counsels. Let now the
> astrologers, the stargazers, the monthly prognosticators,
> stand up, and save thee from these things that shall come upon
> thee.
>
Paul Schlyter
In article <msg242205.thr-...@online.pol.dk>,
Claus Houlberg <Claus_H...@online.pol.dk> wrote:
> pau...@electra.saaf.se,usenet writes:
>>047:013 Thou art wearied in the multitude of thy counsels. Let now the
>> astrologers, the stargazers, the monthly prognosticators,
>> stand up, and save thee from these things that shall come upon
>> thee.
>
to hell just because of their superstition.
> A noted danish astrologer, Paul Mahler Dam, once i full ernest
> proposed, that any astrologer doing these dayly, weekly or monthly
> prognostics should be banned from the Danish Astrologers Union (DAF).
> The proposal fell, though, as there is good money involved.
Paul Schlyter
In article <haizen-2302...@client161.sedona.net>,
Haizen Paige <hai...@sedona.net> wrote:
> In article <6cssbs$q...@electra.saaf.se>, pau...@electra.saaf.se (Paul
> Schlyter) wrote:
>
>> In article <34f1a42b...@news.erg.cuhk.edu.hk>,
>> Enoch <en...@cuhk.edu.hk> wrote:
>>
>>> I am a Christian, and I am interested in astrology.
>>>
>>> Does the bible tell us in any way that we should not
>>> study astrology? This really confuses me.
>>
>> Sure the bible condems astrology -- it says that astrologers should
>> be burnt by the fire (presumably the fire from hell):
>
> Well, there's nothing like a self-proclaimed pagan quoting the Bible to
> bolster his argument against a subject he neither likes nor understands.
> ;-) Other than that, he apparently has no use for the Bible, as his long
> history on this newsgroup can easily attest to.
> It's also worth noting that Mr. Pagan uses quotes from the Old Testement
> suggesting "that astrologers should be burnt by fire (presumably the fire
> from hell)" when "hell" had _not_ even been invented yet. Perhaps, "Bible
> scholar" this he is, he'd like to explain how this is possible?
If you want, I can dig up references from the New Testament saying
that every word of the Old Testament is true. Thus you cannot
exclude the Old Testament from Christianity, as you here try to do.
teri ornell
Haizen Paige wrote:
Dear Haizen,
Thanks for the informative post. I'm happy that the question came up as it is
something I've been wanting to research. Your reply is a nice introduction.
C.
Seed of Life
Paul is right below. Astrology has serious limitations when seeking
to know God. One must go beyond symbols, planets, interpretations, and
personality in order to know God and express God. Astrology only
exists as far as the seed upon which we build our personalities.
Beyond that point is where the bible would like to take us.
My advice to the person below is that astrology will show you what
life is and how God makes us, but at some point you are going to have
to drop it to know God. Scientists also will need to drop their
formulas and laws of the physical universe to know God as well.
Ed Lambert
http://www.infomagic.com/~eternalb
pau...@electra.saaf.se (Paul Schlyter) writes: > In article <34f1a42b...@news.erg.cuhk.edu.hk>,
> Enoch <en...@cuhk.edu.hk> wrote:
>
> > I am a Christian, and I am interested in astrology.
> >
> > Does the bible tell us in any way that we should not
> > study astrology? This really confuses me.
>
>
> Sure the bible condems astrology -- it says that astrologers should
> be burnt by the fire (presumably the fire from hell):
>
>
> Book 23 Isaiah
> --------------
>
> 047:013 Thou art wearied in the multitude of thy counsels. Let now the
> astrologers, the stargazers, the monthly prognosticators,
> stand up, and save thee from these things that shall come upon
> thee.
>
> 047:014 Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them;
> they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame:
> there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before
> it.
>
> 047:015 Thus shall they be unto thee with whom thou hast laboured,
> even thy merchants, from thy youth: they shall wander every
> one to his quarter; none shall save thee.
>
>
Claus Houlberg
eter...@infomagic.com,usenet writes:
>Astrology only exists as far as the seed upon which we build our
>personalities.
>Beyond that point is where the bible would like to take us.
As long as we exclude esoteric astrology, that is.
—ch
Claus Houlberg
>any astrologer doing these dayly, weekly or monthly
>> prognostics should be banned from the Danish Astrologers Union (DAF).
> pau...@electra.saaf.se,usenet writes:
>But he did not think prognisticators should be sent to hell, did he?
Oh well, in the Astrologers Village, it is just as bad being banned
from the union ... ;-)
—ch
pete stapleton
pau...@electra.saaf.se (Paul Schlyter) wrote:
quote"In article <msg242205.thr-...@online.pol.dk>,
quote"Claus Houlberg <Claus_H...@online.pol.dk> wrote:
quote"
quote"> pau...@electra.saaf.se,usenet writes:
quote">>047:013 Thou art wearied in the multitude of thy counsels. Let now the
quote">> astrologers, the stargazers, the monthly prognosticators,
quote">> stand up, and save thee from these things that shall come upon
quote">> thee.
quote">
quote"> But that just seems like common sense, Paul ... ;-)
quote"
quote"Well I disagree -- personally I would not want to send astrologers
quote"to hell just because of their superstition.
quote"
quote"> A noted danish astrologer, Paul Mahler Dam, once i full ernest
quote"> proposed, that any astrologer doing these dayly, weekly or monthly
quote"> prognostics should be banned from the Danish Astrologers Union (DAF).
quote"
quote"But he did not think prognisticators should be sent to hell, did he?
quote"
quote"> The proposal fell, though, as there is good money involved.
quote"
quote"Oh well, what did you expect when money is involved?
quote"
quote"--
quote"----------------------------------------------------------------
Sanctimonious claptrap ! Having tired of his usual tirade, SLUTTYER has
resorted to quoting the bible at last. The bible is nothing from god, but about
old mens' warped ideas of god. Certainly all of SCHLUTTYER'S ideas are a little
warped, but this is final proof that he is truly bent. Tell me, PAULA, do you,
as the bible instructs, sequester your women in the outhouse when they are going
through their monthlies ? Do you consider them "unclean" ? You are supposed
to, ya know, 'cause that's what the bible says to do. Can't imagine even
amatuer sweedish women letting you get away with that ! Or do you just follow
and quote that in the bible which you choose of the moment's convenience ???
SIDEREAL (!) JEFF
See Stapleton's Astro Market Numbers Jan 1998
Download 1998 SIDEREAL/TROPICAL EPHEMERIS (FREE)
NOW from http://www.czone.net/sidereal/
See Stapletons Astro Market Numbers For Jan 1998
Haizen Paige
In article <6cumes$1...@boris.infomagic.com>, Seed of Life
<eter...@infomagic.com> wrote:
> Paul is right below.
Paul in _not_ right in the context of this discussion.
Astrology is _not_ condemned in the Bible if one _reads_ thoroughly what
the Bible has to say.
Strange bedfellows your quoting someone who neither believes in God,
understand the Bible, nor astrology by his own admission. I can understand
one's desire to build a bridge between some form of theology and science
but not in this completely unsubstantial and uninformed fashion. Mr.
Schlyter has no use for Christianity or astrology -- doubly disappointing
that an _astrologer_ would refer to such an uninformed opinion and suggest
that astrology stood in the way of man and his God when God created the
heavens and the earth and saw that it was _good_.
>Astrology has serious limitations when seeking
> to know God.
Astrology is the study of nature that God in heaven created. There is no
built-in conflict if one examines the scriptures _thoroughly_. This
includes studying the scriptions in more than one translation.
> One must go beyond symbols, planets, interpretations, and
> personality in order to know God and express God.
Astrology leads one to experience these energies directly without need of
symbol, etc., called Nature. There is no built-in conflict. On the
contrary, the study of astrology can open up this world, as it has done
for many down through the ages, including the author of this post.
>Astrology only
> exists as far as the seed upon which we build our personalities.
Astrology has at its center the Sun representing the Solar Logos -- the
All-That-Is. This has been known for centuries and is one of the deepest
teaching of astrology -- a level way beyond the personalities only.
Astrology is not anti-God or anti-religion. Nor is it the worship of the
planets.
> Beyond that point is where the bible would like to take us.
The Bible begins and ends with astrology... from Genesis to Revelation it
is rich with it:
From Astrology's Pew in Church by Dick Jacobs:
<quote>
There is no conflict between religion and astrology. The Bible begins and
ends with astrology. In the first book of the Bible, Genesis I, it says:
"God created lights in the heavens, and He made them for signs and for
seasons." The last book, Revelation, is an astrologically symbolic book
which described the Tree of Life as bearing twelve kinds of fruit, one for
every month of the year. This is a beautiful description of the Zodiac,
and the fact that our human family tree does produce twelve basic types of
people.
Solomon wrote the Book of Ecclesiastes, which contains the best definition
of astrology I have found anywhere (chapter 3): "To everything there is a
season, and a time to every purpose under the sun. . . " And in chapter 9:
". . . Under the sun the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the
strong, nor bread to the wise, nor riches to the intelligent, nor favor to
the men of skill; but time and chance happen to them all. " That is what
astrology is, the study of time and chance.
If the Bible really were "against astrology," as the negativists maintain,
imagine the riot that would have raged when the Magi (from the Greek
"Magoi" astrologers) came to Jerusalem seeking for the new king. The
Sanhedrin, the council of Bible scholars who ruled religious Judaism,
would have stoned the astrologers to death IF the Bible taught that
astrology was witchcraft. Instead, every condemnation of sorcery in the
Old Testament carefully lists the prohibited practices, and every verse
scrupulously omits astrology. Therefore, what really happened was that the
astrologers were welcomed as honored guests, and the Sanhedrin
respectfully questioned them about the star. They correlated this
revelation with Numbers 24:17, "A star shall come forth cut of Jacob," and
with a prophetic tradition that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem.
Actually, it was astrology and the Bible working together that finally
brought the "wise men" to Jesus.
<unquote>
Please explain the relationship of the astrologers, "the wise men," to the
passage of scripture in Duet, chapter 47, you use to support your thesis
that God and religion are opposed to each other.
Hint: It can't be done.
> My advice to the person below is that astrology will show you what
> life is and how God makes us, but at some point you are going to have
> to drop it to know God.
Astrology was never intended as an end of itself. But to suggest that
astrology and God, astrology and religion are mutually exclusive of each
is not supported doctrinally by the Bible.
> Scientists also will need to drop their
> formulas and laws of the physical universe to know God as well.
____
Books covering the relationship of Astrology to the Bible:
Jacobs, Don. "Astrology's Pew in the Church". San francisco: The Joshua
Foundation, 1979
Simms, Maria Kay. "Twelve Wings of the Eagle: Evolution through the
Ages of the Zodiac". San Diego, Calif.: Astro Computing Services,
1988.
"Deceptions and Myths of the Bible". Despite the
rather contentious name, it is a fascianting point-by-point essay on the
thesis that the Bible is BASED on astrology.
> Ed Lambert
> http://www.infomagic.com/~eternalb
____
Haizen Paige
___
The Cosmic Palette
http://nen.sedona.net//haizen/
> pau...@electra.saaf.se (Paul Schlyter) writes: > In article
<34f1a42b...@news.erg.cuhk.edu.hk>,
> > Enoch <en...@cuhk.edu.hk> wrote:
> >
> > > I am a Christian, and I am interested in astrology.
> > >
> > > Does the bible tell us in any way that we should not
> > > study astrology? This really confuses me.
> >
> >
> > Sure the bible condems astrology -- it says that astrologers should
> > be burnt by the fire (presumably the fire from hell):
> >
> >
> > Book 23 Isaiah
> > --------------
> >
> > 047:013 Thou art wearied in the multitude of thy counsels. Let now the
> > astrologers, the stargazers, the monthly prognosticators,
> > stand up, and save thee from these things that shall come upon
eter...@infomagic.com
In article <haizen-2502...@client142.sedona.net>,
hai...@sedona.net (Haizen Paige) wrote:
>
> In article <6cumes$1...@boris.infomagic.com>, Seed of Life
> <eter...@infomagic.com> wrote:
>
> > Paul is right below.
>
> Paul in _not_ right in the context of this discussion.
>
> Astrology is _not_ condemned in the Bible if one _reads_ thoroughly what
> the Bible has to say.
Agreed. Paul is not totally right as this discussion is concerned.
But let's move on.
Haizen, Have you seen my post about the story from "Life and Teachings of the
Masters of the Far East."? The one that describes how the students are
taught the 12 methods of hypnotic influence and then are taught to drop them
in order to express true spirituality? The story is based on planting a
seed, if done by hypnotic influence the tree that comes up is not there, and
if one but drops the hypnotic influence, the tree that comes up is there.
Also, have you read "Tales of Power" by Carlos Casteneda? In there Don Juan
talks about the Tonal and the Nagual. He definitely describes the tonal as
astrology is understood. What is beyond the tonal is the nagual. In order
to reach the nagual, you must go beyond the tonal (astrology).
I love astrology and it's ability to help me feel closer to God. But if the
time comes where I have to let go of astrology in order to be with God. Good
bye astrology.
Ed Lambert
http://www.infomagic.com/~eternalb
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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Paul Schlyter
In article <haizen-2502...@client142.sedona.net>,
Haizen Paige <hai...@sedona.net> wrote:
> In article <6cumes$1...@boris.infomagic.com>, Seed of Life
> <eter...@infomagic.com> wrote:
>
> > Paul is right below.
>
> Paul in _not_ right in the context of this discussion.
>
> Astrology is _not_ condemned in the Bible if one _reads_ thoroughly what
> the Bible has to say.
# Book 23 Isaiah
# --------------
#
# 047:013 Thou art wearied in the multitude of thy counsels. Let now the
# astrologers, the stargazers, the monthly prognosticators,
# stand up, and save thee from these things that shall come upon
# thee.
#
# 047:014 Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them;
# they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame:
# there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before
# it.
#
# 047:015 Thus shall they be unto thee with whom thou hast laboured,
# even thy merchants, from thy youth: they shall wander every
# one to his quarter; none shall save thee.
and then try to explain away how this can be anything but a condemnation
of astrology....
> Strange bedfellows your quoting someone who neither believes in God,
> understand the Bible, nor astrology by his own admission.
try to distort the facts....
> I can understand one's desire to build a bridge between some form of
> theology and science
its own. And not so long ago, the Church was a powerful opponent to
science.
I merely wanted to point out that Christianity makes a strong demand
of being exclusive: it frowns at ANYTHING which directs your attention
away from that religion (that's the First Commandment: "Thou shalt
not have any other God but me"....)
> Mr. Schlyter has no use for Christianity or astrology
some use for either of them -- right? And even if you had no use for
e.g. mathematics, would that make an observation of yours that 2 and
5 are two different numbers false? I think not!
> -- doubly disappointing that an _astrologer_ would refer to such an
> uninformed opinion and suggest that astrology stood in the way of man
> and his God when God created the heavens and the earth and saw that
> it was _good_.
is good". Astrology is the practice of trying to predict the future
from the stars -- the gods of ancient people. Thus, practicing
astrology means that you're not directing all your attention to the
christian God, and therefore you're breaking the 1st Commandment.
>>>Astrology has serious limitations when seeking to know God.
>>
>> Astrology is the study of nature that God in heaven created.
doesn't work.
> There is no built-in conflict if one examines the scriptures
> _thoroughly_.
the Ten Commandments, and Isaiah..... (and more)
> This includes studying the scriptions in more than one translation.
prejudice best -- right?
If one wants to do this really thoroughly, one shouldn't study some
translation, but the book in its original language!
>> Astrology leads one to experience these energies directly without need of
>> symbol, etc., called Nature.
is the symbols....
> There is no built-in conflict.
Ask around among people who are active in church, and hear their
opinion .... if you dare..... then try to explain away THAT!
> There is no conflict between religion and astrology.
between christianity and non-christianity (including all other forms
of religions and spiritualism). There are MANY places in the Bible
which demans this exclusivity of Christianity -- but you skipped them
while you read youe Bible, eh?
> The Bible begins and ends with astrology.
astrology!
> In the first book of the Bible, Genesis I, it says: "God created lights
> in the heavens, and He made them for signs and for seasons."
of stuff from NATAL DATA! THe Bible says nothing about natal data....
> The last book, Revelation, is an astrologically symbolic book
stars and planets wander way off their course --- now try to construct
a horoscope from THAT !!!!!
> which described the Tree of Life as bearing twelve kinds of fruit, one for
> every month of the year. This is a beautiful description of the Zodiac,
nothing about any zodiac here....
> and the fact that our human family tree does produce twelve basic types of
> people.
> Solomon wrote the Book of Ecclesiastes, which contains the best definition
> of astrology I have found anywhere (chapter 3): "To everything there is a
> season, and a time to every purpose under the sun. . . " And in chapter 9:
> ". . . Under the sun the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the
> strong, nor bread to the wise, nor riches to the intelligent, nor favor to
> the men of skill; but time and chance happen to them all. " That is what
> astrology is, the study of time and chance.
when it suits your purposes. The quotes above is a general philosophy,
it's NOT astrology!
> If the Bible really were "against astrology," as the negativists maintain,
> imagine the riot that would have raged when the Magi (from the Greek
> "Magoi" astrologers) came to Jerusalem seeking for the new king.
the Roman empire. Back then it was considered OK to watch the planets,
i.e. the Roman gods....
> The
> Sanhedrin, the council of Bible scholars who ruled religious Judaism,
> would have stoned the astrologers to death IF the Bible taught that
> astrology was witchcraft.
> Instead, every condemnation of sorcery in the
> Old Testament carefully lists the prohibited practices, and every verse
> scrupulously omits astrology.
astrology than Christianity, even though they share the same holy book.
> Therefore, what really happened was that the
> astrologers were welcomed as honored guests, and the Sanhedrin
> respectfully questioned them about the star. They correlated this
> revelation with Numbers 24:17, "A star shall come forth cut of Jacob," and
> with a prophetic tradition that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem.
> Actually, it was astrology and the Bible working together that finally
> brought the "wise men" to Jesus.
could put in your chart. It's unclear whether it was any real phenomenon at
all -- it may well be a myth, created afterwards and then added to the
bible (christians of course prever to consider it a "wonder by God").
Anyway, my point is that the "Star of Betlehem" was unlike any other
body -- and therefore it defied astrological interpretations.
> <unquote>
>
> Please explain the relationship of the astrologers, "the wise men," to the
> passage of scripture in Duet, chapter 47, you use to support your thesis
> that God and religion are opposed to each other.
be opposed to each other.....
> Astrology was never intended as an end of itself. But to suggest that
> astrology and God, astrology and religion are mutually exclusive of each
> is not supported doctrinally by the Bible.
have an easier time co-existing with both Judaism and Islam for instance,
and it co-exists even more easily with Hinduism.
My remark was about astrology and Christianity -- there you'll find a
fundamental incompatibility. What causes this incompatibility?
Christianity does -- by its demand of being so very exclusive. This
of course also makes Christianity incompatible with much else too,
for instance all other religions.... (remember that quote "...nobody
comes to the Father except through me.." by Jesus. That is the
central theme of Christianity).
Haizen Paige
In article <6d1q15$5...@electra.saaf.se>, pau...@electra.saaf.se (Paul
Schlyter) wrote:
> In article <haizen-2502...@client142.sedona.net>,
> Haizen Paige <hai...@sedona.net> wrote:
>
> > In article <6cumes$1...@boris.infomagic.com>, Seed of Life
> > <eter...@infomagic.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Paul is right below.
> >
> > Paul in _not_ right in the context of this discussion.
> >
> > Astrology is _not_ condemned in the Bible if one _reads_ thoroughly what
> > the Bible has to say.
> Start with the quote below
... quote completely taken out of context, too...
>
> # Book 23 Isaiah
> # --------------
> #
> # 047:013 Thou art wearied in the multitude of thy counsels. Let now the
> # astrologers, the stargazers, the monthly prognosticators,
> # stand up, and save thee from these things that shall come upon
> # thee.
> #
> # 047:014 Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them;
> # they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame:
> # there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before
> # it.
> #
> # 047:015 Thus shall they be unto thee with whom thou hast laboured,
> # even thy merchants, from thy youth: they shall wander every
> # one to his quarter; none shall save thee.
>
> and then try to explain away how this can be anything but a condemnation
> of astrology....
These passages cannot be properly understood when taken out of context.
The 47th chapter is a condemnation of Babylon not astrology.
To repeat:
"If one backs off and reads the whole 47th chapter, which is a cohesive
section intended to be read by itself, one finds that the prophet is
predicting the destruction and ruin of the Babylonian Empire in punishment
for the cruelty with which it had conquered and enslaved all the small
kingdoms of the Near and Middle East, including Judah. "God is going to
burn Babylon," Isaiah says, "and your great civilization, your learning,
your science can not save you from His wrath. Not even your famous
astrologers can save you." Isaiah's obvious intention is not to condemn
astrology, but to condemn Babylon and everything Babylonian.
"It is precisely as if a Jew in Dachau had written a diatribe against
Hitler's Germany, saying "All your vaunted German Kultur, your Kant, your
Goethe, and your Wagner will not save you from the destruction God is
bringing upon Germany for your wickedness." No one would interpret such a
prophesy as a condemnation of Kant or Goethe or Wagner."
This passage is used to condemn astrology by the careless and
non-thinking, but it is a condemnation of Babylon. Period.
> > Strange bedfellows your quoting someone who neither believes in God,
>
> Irrelevant! Not believing in God does not imply an inability to read...
No, just an inability to comprehend with the heart as well as the mind.
> > understand the Bible, nor astrology by his own admission.
>
> Sorry, but I've only admitted not believing in God. But as usual you
> try to distort the facts....
You have no use for God or Christianity, as it is understood in the Bible,
and have stated so in other posts on this newsgroup, and that's the topic
under discussion, just to remind you.
> > I can understand one's desire to build a bridge between some form of
> > theology and science
>
> I feel no such desire -- theology contains a lot of superstitions by
> its own. And not so long ago, the Church was a powerful opponent to
> science.
> I merely wanted to point out that Christianity makes a strong demand
> of being exclusive: it frowns at ANYTHING which directs your attention
> away from that religion (that's the First Commandment: "Thou shalt
> not have any other God but me"....)
>
> > Mr. Schlyter has no use for Christianity or astrology
>
> So what? Neither astrology nor the bible wouldn't change even if I had
> some use for either of them -- right?
That's why you will never understand either.
And even if you had no use for
> e.g. mathematics, would that make an observation of yours that 2 and
> 5 are two different numbers false? I think not!
Does anyone really care about this example of yours?
> > -- doubly disappointing that an _astrologer_ would refer to such an
> > uninformed opinion and suggest that astrology stood in the way of man
> > and his God when God created the heavens and the earth and saw that
> > it was _good_.
>
> Sorry but astrology isn't merely the statement that "heaven and earth
> is good".
It is part of the scriptures, and it has been for at least four thousand
years. There's no changing that.
>Astrology is the practice of trying to predict the future
> from the stars -- the gods of ancient people.
Astrology can and has made accurate predictions, including the prediction
of the London Fire of 1666 by astrology William Lilly. Put that in your
pipe and smoke it. ;-) Nothing that Mr. Schlyter says is going to change
that historical fact that Lilly made that prediction and it worked out
that way exactly. The only thing that can be argued is the _percent_ of
predictions that come to pass if one just happens to think that prediction
is all that astrology is, when it isn't. The astrological aspects
(sextiles, trines, etc.) were also used by John H. Nelson to predict
magnetic storms that would interfere with radio signals, for RCA, and he
did this with a high degree of accuracy for years -- or he wouldn't have
been been on the RCA payroll. The study of the sun on the life on earth is
part of astrology too -- and a successful part. No attempts to discredit
Nelson's will change the fact that he studied the other planets in
relationship to the sun to successful predict these magnetic storms year
after year after year.
>Thus, practicing
> astrology means that you're not directing all your attention to the
> christian God, and therefore you're breaking the 1st Commandment.
No! Astrology provides the chart, and God interprets. This is one of the
highest teachings of astrology. This is how Joseph said he interpreted the
meaning of the dreams for Pharoah in the Old Testament.
> >>>Astrology has serious limitations when seeking to know God.
> >>
> >> Astrology is the study of nature that God in heaven created.
>
> Nonsense! If you actually study Nature, you'll find that astrology
> doesn't work.
Wrongo, mebucko. Only its level of accuracy is subject to debate. If that
were not true than Michel and Francoise Gauqueline would never have been
honored guests in SUPPORT of astrology at numerous astrology conferences
around the world.
> > There is no built-in conflict if one examines the scriptures
> > _thoroughly_.
>
> You mean if one skips those parts where there IS a conflict, like
> the Ten Commandments, and Isaiah..... (and more)
Isaiah is about the condemnation of Babylon. Try reading the whole damn
chapter sometime.
;-)
> > This includes studying the scriptions in more than one translation.
>
> Yeah sure -- and then select the translation which suite your
> prejudice best -- right?
Really? If one is choosing another more accurate translation of the Hebrew
or Aramaic, one is slanting it? Nice try! So much for any high regard for
scholarship. _All_ translations were done by Bible scholars, not pagans.
;-)
> If one wants to do this really thoroughly, one shouldn't study some
> translation, but the book in its original language!
>
> >> Astrology leads one to experience these energies directly without need of
> >> symbol, etc., called Nature.
>
> Sorry, but you got it backwards: Nature is the reality, while astrology
> is the symbols....
Here's a little experiment for you: The next time the sun shines, take a
look at it. Do you _believe_ the sun in shining, or do you _know_ it? This
means the sun has a very real energy that can be felt outwardly _and_
inward because there's emotional as well as psychological benefits to
light.
> > There is no built-in conflict.
>
> You do your best to close your eyes to it....
Do your best to keep this man in your killfile most of the time. ;-)
> Ask around among people who are active in church, and hear their
> opinion .... if you dare..... then try to explain away THAT!
Oh, what a beauty of an argument. Accuracy by consensus... beautiful.
> > There is no conflict between religion and astrology.
>
> Sorry but Christianity contains, at its very core, an inherent conflict
> between christianity and non-christianity (including all other forms
> of religions and spiritualism). There are MANY places in the Bible
> which demans this exclusivity of Christianity -- but you skipped them
> while you read youe Bible, eh?
This is incorrect for reasons that I've gone into elsewhere. This conflict
can only be within the person, not between God and His creations.
> > The Bible begins and ends with astrology.
>
> No..... read the first and last verse. They say nothing about
> astrology!
"The sun to rule by day; the moon to rule by night -- that's creation
expressed in astrological terms.
> > In the first book of the Bible, Genesis I, it says: "God created lights
> > in the heavens, and He made them for signs and for seasons."
>
> Yep! Signs and seasons is not astrology.
The cardinal points of the seasons are used as major reference points in
the tropical system: Aries (the first day of spring), Cancer (summer),
Libra (fall), and Capricorn (winter). It doesn't get any clearer than
that.
Astrology is the PREDICTION
> of stuff from NATAL DATA!
Astrology observes the heavens separate on their own. The lunar cycle, the
year, the day -- are all cycles non-dependent upon one's personal time of
birth to appreciate. The Bible is rich with these kinds of references.
Another stellar reference which serious attention to Hebrew starnames has
cleared up in the New English, Bible is chapter 5:8, 9 of the prophet
Amos:
He who made the Pleiades and Orion,
who turned darkness into morning,
and darkened day into night,
who summoned the waters of the sea,
and poured them over the earth,
who makes Taurus rise after Capella,
and Taurus set hard on the rising
of the Vintager (Vindemiatrix in Virgo).
The Bible says something bigger about life and astrology than simply one's
ego-centric personal horoscope.
> > The last book, Revelation, is an astrologically symbolic book
>
> Not veyr much astrology there -- in Revelation everything is chaos, the
> stars and planets wander way off their course --- now try to construct
> a horoscope from THAT !!!!!
That just isn't a good enough analysis of Revelations and its deeper
significance. Revelations refers to nations, not to the construction of
someone's horoscope.
On Revelations:
Dick Jacobs on Revelations:
<quote on>
The four living creatures full of eyes (stars) are instantly recognizable
to astrologers as the four fixed signs, the lion, Leo, and the ox, Taurus,
the eagle, Scorpio, and the man, Aquarius. Their symbolism is the same as
in the first chapter of Ezekiel's vision, but also the same as the four
creatures combined in the Sphinx. This emphasis on the fixed signs, of
course, reflects a tradition dating from the Age of Taurus when these were
the cardinal signs, as they were also when the Egyptians first formalized
astrology.
<unquote>
This about as clear as it can get to with regard to its references to astrology.
> > which described the Tree of Life as bearing twelve kinds of fruit, one for
> > every month of the year. This is a beautiful description of the Zodiac,
>
> No -- it's a description of the months of the year. The Bible says absolutely
> nothing about any zodiac here....
"The twenty-four elders before the throne of God in Rev. 4 and following
chapters, are the twelve patriarchs of the twelve tribes of Israel who so
insistently are referred to the months and the constellations of the
Zodiac, plus the twelve corresponding Apostles chosen by Jesus to
accompany Him on His Journey to Tyre."
> > and the fact that our human family tree does produce twelve basic types of
> > people.
>
> ...only in your imagination...
Spoken like a Leo (tropical) with a Scorpio ascendant.
As little aside... does anyone recognize this person from this description?--
"The native of this sign is bold and warlike, inclined to rush into
quarrels and to be involved in disputes which are likely to be harmful to
him. The nature is excessive, and goes to extremes both in work and
pleasures, thus bringing both sickness and trouble; for there is a strong
tendency to play the critic, so that the native is apt to be sarcastic and
severe to his opponents. The will is very strong and fights to the end.
The executive and destructive faculties are large, the Scorpio man
representing the function of dissolution in Nature: he pulls down and
destroys existing theories, institutions and beliefs, and this is
frequently effected by the acute penetration of the Scorpio mind, which is
endowed with the "eagle eye "and which has moreover an insatiable thirst
for finding out the secret nature of things. The occult researcher, the
chemist, the inductive philosopher and even the detective, owe their
faculty to this sign.
"The imagination is fertile and the nature very resourceful: the temper is
uncertain and petulant, very fiery, but not necessarily of long malice,
though the loves and hates are keen and absorbing. The manners are
frequently brusque and rude, but direct spoken and fearless; the native
keeps his own counsel and is wary and watchful of his interests: there is
much pride in the mental disposition..."
This description of a Scorpio ascendant, which Mr. Schlyter does have,
fits like a glove -- and *it was written more than thirty years before he
was born.* (From "Astrology for All" by Alan Leo.) This within itself
proves how revealing one's birth chart can be -- and if the person isn't
interested in studying his own character and nature, then the information
might be of use to someone else.
> > Solomon wrote the Book of Ecclesiastes, which contains the best definition
> > of astrology I have found anywhere (chapter 3): "To everything there is a
> > season, and a time to every purpose under the sun. . . " And in chapter 9:
> > ". . . Under the sun the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the
> > strong, nor bread to the wise, nor riches to the intelligent, nor favor to
> > the men of skill; but time and chance happen to them all. " That is what
> > astrology is, the study of time and chance.
>
> That's not the way you USE astrology -- you make astrology this way only
> when it suits your purposes. The quotes above is a general philosophy,
> it's NOT astrology!
Wrong.
> > If the Bible really were "against astrology," as the negativists maintain,
>
> It is!! Check the quote from Isaiah above....
>
> > imagine the riot that would have raged when the Magi (from the Greek
> > "Magoi" astrologers) came to Jerusalem seeking for the new king.
>
> Why? Neither Christianity nor Judaism was then a state religion in
> the Roman empire. Back then it was considered OK to watch the planets,
> i.e. the Roman gods....
It _still_ is okay; you just haven't noticed.
> > The
> > Sanhedrin, the council of Bible scholars who ruled religious Judaism,
> > would have stoned the astrologers to death IF the Bible taught that
> > astrology was witchcraft.
>
> Only if the astrologer was a jew. Were the Magi jews?
If astrology and astrologers were condemned they wouldn't not have been
received one way or the other. On the contrary, their gifts were
well-received and they helps protect the life of Jesus by not reporting
back to Herod. Oh. And let's not fail to mention that, whatever the star
was, they knew what it meant and where it led.
> > Instead, every condemnation of sorcery in the
> > Old Testament carefully lists the prohibited practices, and every verse
> > scrupulously omits astrology.
>
> That's the Judaism. Interestingly, Judaism is more tolerant to
> astrology than Christianity, even though they share the same holy book.
This does not explain the _wealth_ of astrological references in the New
Testament of the Bible.
> > Therefore, what really happened was that the
> > astrologers were welcomed as honored guests, and the Sanhedrin
> > respectfully questioned them about the star. They correlated this
> > revelation with Numbers 24:17, "A star shall come forth cut of Jacob," and
> > with a prophetic tradition that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem.
> > Actually, it was astrology and the Bible working together that finally
> > brought the "wise men" to Jesus.
>
> FYI: the "star of Bethlehem" was not an ordinary astrological body you
> could put in your chart.
It doesn't matter what the star was in the context of this discussion..
> It's unclear whether it was any real phenomenon at
> all -- it may well be a myth, created afterwards and then added to the
> bible (christians of course prever to consider it a "wonder by God").
> Anyway, my point is that the "Star of Betlehem" was unlike any other
> body -- and therefore it defied astrological interpretations.
Completely non-essential information -- way off the beam... an attempted
distraction.
> > <unquote>
> >
> > Please explain the relationship of the astrologers, "the wise men," to the
> > passage of scripture in Duet, chapter 47, you use to support your thesis
> > that God and religion are opposed to each other.
>
> I cannot remember ever having claimed that God and religion should
> be opposed to each other.....
>
> > Astrology was never intended as an end of itself. But to suggest that
> > astrology and God, astrology and religion are mutually exclusive of each
> > is not supported doctrinally by the Bible.
>
> Astrology and religions in general aren't mutually exclusive. Astrology
> have an easier time co-existing with both Judaism and Islam for instance,
> and it co-exists even more easily with Hinduism.
The esoteric traditions of all the major religions have deeper teaching
than are apparent on the surface.
> My remark was about astrology and Christianity -- there you'll find a
> fundamental incompatibility. What causes this incompatibility?
> Christianity does -- by its demand of being so very exclusive. This
> of course also makes Christianity incompatible with much else too,
> for instance all other religions.... (remember that quote "...nobody
> comes to the Father except through me.." by Jesus. That is the
> central theme of Christianity).
____
So not only has this subject had more light shed on it, but perhaps the
character of one of its most vocal and misinformed critics has been
illuminated *through the understanding of his birth chart* for others to
see.
Cheers,
Paul Schlyter
In article <haizen-2502...@client163.sedona.net>,
Haizen Paige <hai...@sedona.net> wrote:
> In article <6d1q15$5...@electra.saaf.se>, pau...@electra.saaf.se (Paul
> Schlyter) wrote:
>
>> In article <haizen-2502...@client142.sedona.net>,
>> Haizen Paige <hai...@sedona.net> wrote:
>>
>>> In article <6cumes$1...@boris.infomagic.com>, Seed of Life
>>> <eter...@infomagic.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Paul is right below.
>>>
>>> Paul in _not_ right in the context of this discussion.
>>>
>>> Astrology is _not_ condemned in the Bible if one _reads_ thoroughly what
>>> the Bible has to say.
>
>> Start with the quote below
>
> ... quote completely taken out of context, too...
Well, would you want me to quote the entire bible, or what? It's about
5 MBytes large....
>>> Strange bedfellows your quoting someone who neither believes in God,
>>
>> Irrelevant! Not believing in God does not imply an inability to read...
>
> No, just an inability to comprehend with the heart as well as the mind.
Mind you, I strongly *dislike* the intolerance of Christianity. But it
won't go away just because I dislike it...
> You have no use for God or Christianity, as it is understood in the Bible,
> and have stated so in other posts on this newsgroup, and that's the topic
> under discussion, just to remind you.
That's not the topic *I* discuss, even thouhg you're trying to divert
away from the original topic of discussion....
>> So what? Neither astrology nor the bible wouldn't change even if I had
>> some use for either of them -- right?
>
> That's why you will never understand either.
Huh? Are you claiming that, in order to understand something, that
something must change depending on you having some use for them, or
what? A quite stupid claim IMNSHO
>> And even if you had no use for
>> e.g. mathematics, would that make an observation of yours that 2 and
>> 5 are two different numbers false? I think not!
>
> Does anyone really care about this example of yours?
Well, according to your logic above, this implies that nobody
will ever understand mathematics.....
>>> -- doubly disappointing that an _astrologer_ would refer to such an
>>> uninformed opinion and suggest that astrology stood in the way of man
>>> and his God when God created the heavens and the earth and saw that
>>> it was _good_.
>>
>> Sorry but astrology isn't merely the statement that "heaven and earth
>> is good".
>
> It is part of the scriptures, and it has been for at least four thousand
> years. There's no changing that.
True, however that doesn't make it astrology. Please try to remain on topic.
>> Astrology is the practice of trying to predict the future from the stars
>> -- the gods of ancient people.
>
> Astrology can and has made accurate predictions, including the prediction
> of the London Fire of 1666 by astrology William Lilly. Put that in your
> pipe and smoke it. ;-) Nothing that Mr. Schlyter says is going to change
> that historical fact that Lilly made that prediction and it worked out
> that way exactly.
I never argued against the fact that random guesses sometimes are correct
by chance. You're using the "lottery effect" here: focusing on the few
winners and forgetting th large number of losers.
Also: I doubt that this particular prediction was that accurate as you
claim. No, I haven't examined it so I cannot say for sure it wasn't, but
I'm quite acquainted with your habit of distorting the facts in your
own favor.
> The only thing that can be argued is the _percent_ of predictions that
> come to pass
For non-trivial predictions this percentage is quite low....
> if one just happens to think that prediction is all that astrology is,
> when it isn't.
And to give an examlpe of this, you supply another prediction:
> The astrological aspects (sextiles, trines, etc.) were also used by
> John H. Nelson to predict magnetic storms that would interfere with
> radio signals, for RCA, and he did this with a high degree of accuracy
> for years -- or he wouldn't have been been on the RCA payroll.
This was done in the 1940'ies and 1950'ies. A few years isn't a very
long time here -- one would like to have such a study over decades,
preferably a century. However, these studies were discontinued decades
ago, and there seem to have been no similar studies made recently.
Perhaps further investigation revealed that these predictions were not
reliable? If they were as reliable as you claim, why isn't this used
as a standard method of prediction today?
> The study of the sun on the life on earth is part of astrology too
No it's not -- that field is called Solar-Terrestial physics.
> -- and a successful part. No attempts to discredit Nelson's will
> change the fact that he studied the other planets in relationship
> to the sun to successful predict these magnetic storms year after
> year after year.
....for only a few years. You need to study time series (a
mathematical discipline dealing explicitly with correlations in time)
to understand why such apparently successful results over a mere few
years cannot be considered universally valid. The solar data is
there for anyone to investigate, and teh astrologers can compute
ephemerides -- so why does nobody go ahead and continue Nelson's work?
RCA cancelled it -- probably for some good reason.
>> Thus, practicing astrology means that you're not directing all your
>> attention to the christian God, and therefore you're breaking the
>> 1st Commandment.
>
> No! Astrology provides the chart, and God interprets.
Hey! Proclaiming yourself as God is really a CARDINAL SIN in
Christianity.....
>>>> Astrology is the study of nature that God in heaven created.
>>
>> Nonsense! If you actually study Nature, you'll find that astrology
>> doesn't work.
>
> Wrongo, mebucko. Only its level of accuracy is subject to debate.
Its accuracy is known to be so low that it can be considered
insignificant. However, astrologers refuse to accept this....
> If that were not true than Michel and Francoise Gauqueline would
> never have been honored guests in SUPPORT of astrology at numerous
> astrology conferences around the world.
It's really amazing that astrologers honored them as guests when they
in fact had disproved most of traditional astrology.....
>>> There is no built-in conflict if one examines the scriptures
>>> _thoroughly_.
>>
>> You mean if one skips those parts where there IS a conflict, like
>> the Ten Commandments, and Isaiah..... (and more)
>
> Isaiah is about the condemnation of Babylon. Try reading the whole damn
> chapter sometime.
Then why did Isaiah say "astrologers" instead of "Babylonians" ?
>>> This includes studying the scriptions in more than one translation.
>>
>> Yeah sure -- and then select the translation which suite your
>> prejudice best -- right?
>
> Really? If one is choosing another more accurate translation of the Hebrew
> or Aramaic, one is slanting it? Nice try! So much for any high regard for
> scholarship. _All_ translations were done by Bible scholars, not pagans.
And you just sweepingly declare these scholars' works as inaccurate.....
>>>> Astrology leads one to experience these energies directly without need of
>>>> symbol, etc., called Nature.
>>
>> Sorry, but you got it backwards: Nature is the reality, while astrology
>> is the symbols....
>
> Here's a little experiment for you: The next time the sun shines, take a
> look at it. Do you _believe_ the sun in shining, or do you _know_ it? This
> means the sun has a very real energy that can be felt outwardly _and_
> inward because there's emotional as well as psychological benefits to
> light.
Note that the sunshine, as opposed to astrology, isn't just
noticeable by our minds -- it is also noticeable in the physical
worlds. No scientist will argue against the fact that the weather is
warmer in summer than in winter. That's not just a perception --
it's a physical fact.
I know the sun shines because I can see it AND because it can be
measured. The measurements show that our perception in this case
is not a delusion -- it corresponds to a physical reality.
>>> There is no built-in conflict.
>>
>> You do your best to close your eyes to it....
>
> Do your best to keep this man in your killfile most of the time. ;-)
If you've killfiled me, why do you respond?
>> Ask around among people who are active in church, and hear their
>> opinion .... if you dare..... then try to explain away THAT!
>
> Oh, what a beauty of an argument. Accuracy by consensus... beautiful.
Yes -- that's what religion is about: consensus among the worshippers.
Since you seem reluctant to do what I just suggested, you already know
that you won't like to hear what you'd hear from them if you asked.
Thus you know, deep down inside, that I'm right, even if you do your
best to deny it.
>>> There is no conflict between religion and astrology.
>>
>> Sorry but Christianity contains, at its very core, an inherent conflict
>> between christianity and non-christianity (including all other forms
>> of religions and spiritualism). There are MANY places in the Bible
>> which demans this exclusivity of Christianity -- but you skipped them
>> while you read youe Bible, eh?
>
> This is incorrect for reasons that I've gone into elsewhere. This conflict
> can only be within the person, not between God and His creations.
Maybe, maybe not -- nevertheles the Bible strongly states there is
such a conflict. Why do you think all these intolerant Christian
fundamentalists are around? For various reasons, of course, but one
big reason is that they find a lot of support in the Bible. And that's
something you cannot explain away -- it's not just in some single
"quote out of context" -- it's all over, particularly in the New
Testament.
>>> The Bible begins and ends with astrology.
>>
>> No..... read the first and last verse. They say nothing about
>> astrology!
>
> "The sun to rule by day; the moon to rule by night -- that's creation
> expressed in astrological terms.
Sorry, but I see no astrology there. It may be astronomy, but it's
definitely not astrology. There's no references to either forecasts or
natal charts, or anything else astrological, in there.
You seem to be under the delusion that as soon as one utters the words
"sun", "moon" or "planet", then one have made an astrological statement.
That's not the case.
>>> In the first book of the Bible, Genesis I, it says: "God created lights
>>> in the heavens, and He made them for signs and for seasons."
>>
>> Yep! Signs and seasons is not astrology.
>
> The cardinal points of the seasons are used as major reference points in
> the tropical system: Aries (the first day of spring), Cancer (summer),
> Libra (fall), and Capricorn (winter). It doesn't get any clearer than
> that.
Astrologers USE seasons, I know that -- but that doesn't make seasons
astrology.
>> Astrology is the PREDICTION of stuff from NATAL DATA!
>
> Astrology observes the heavens separate on their own.
That's a lie. Contemporary astrologers never observe the heavens.
Ancient astrologers did, but contemporary astrologers are lazy --
they just use the ephemeris data provided by --- ASTRONOMERS !!!!
> The lunar cycle, the year, the day -- are all cycles non-dependent upon
> one's personal time of birth to appreciate. The Bible is rich with these
> kinds of references.
True, but just mentioning these cycles isn't astrology.
> Another stellar reference which serious attention to Hebrew starnames has
> cleared up in the New English, Bible is chapter 5:8, 9 of the prophet
> Amos:
>
> He who made the Pleiades and Orion,
> who turned darkness into morning,
> and darkened day into night,
> who summoned the waters of the sea,
> and poured them over the earth,
> who makes Taurus rise after Capella,
> and Taurus set hard on the rising
> of the Vintager (Vindemiatrix in Virgo).
I know there are stellar references in the Bible. But where's the astrology
in this verse? All it says is that God created this all -- nothing more.
> The Bible says something bigger about life and astrology than simply one's
> ego-centric personal horoscope.
The bible says nothing about astrology above. When it mentions astrology,
it frowns at it. But as usual, you try to twist the facts....
>>> The last book, Revelation, is an astrologically symbolic book
>>
>> Not very much astrology there -- in Revelation everything is chaos, the
>> stars and planets wander way off their course --- now try to construct
>> a horoscope from THAT !!!!!
>
> That just isn't a good enough analysis of Revelations and its deeper
> significance.
"deeper significance" = your fantasies about it. Of course you can fantasize
that Revelation says stuff about astrology -- but the fact is that it doesn't.
All that is just in your imagination.
> Revelations refers to nations, not to the construction of someone's horoscope.
And it does not refer to astrology.
> On Revelations:
>
> Dick Jacobs on Revelations:
[ more fantasies snipped ]
Please quote what Revelation ACTUALLY says -- not just what some
astrologer BELIEVE it says....
>> No -- it's a description of the months of the year. The Bible says absolutely
>> nothing about any zodiac here....
>
> "The twenty-four elders before the throne of God in Rev. 4 and following
> chapters, are the twelve patriarchs of the twelve tribes of Israel who so
> insistently are referred to the months and the constellations of the
> Zodiac, plus the twelve corresponding Apostles chosen by Jesus to
> accompany Him on His Journey to Tyre."
Which biblical verse is this?
>> Why? Neither Christianity nor Judaism was then a state religion in
>> the Roman empire. Back then it was considered OK to watch the planets,
>> i.e. the Roman gods....
>
> It _still_ is okay; you just haven't noticed.
It's not OK in my part of the world. The next time you visit Sweden,
try to ask people for their natal sign. Chances are that you'll be
met by a big laugh, and then someone comments "Typically American...".
Yes, I have seen this happen....
>> FYI: the "star of Bethlehem" was not an ordinary astrological body you
>> could put in your chart.
>
> It doesn't matter what the star was in the context of this discussion..
If it's that irrelevant, please stop referring to it.
>> Astrology and religions in general aren't mutually exclusive. Astrology
>> have an easier time co-existing with both Judaism and Islam for instance,
>> and it co-exists even more easily with Hinduism.
>
> The esoteric traditions of all the major religions have deeper teaching
> than are apparent on the surface.
...but esoteric teachings are available only to a few, therefore they will
remain irrelevant in the mainstream of these religions. And the fact
rmains that in mainstream Christianity, astrology is frowned at, and
there's a lot of support for such an attitude in the Bible.
>> My remark was about astrology and Christianity -- there you'll find a
>> fundamental incompatibility. What causes this incompatibility?
>> Christianity does -- by its demand of being so very exclusive. This
>> of course also makes Christianity incompatible with much else too,
>> for instance all other religions.... (remember that quote "...nobody
>> comes to the Father except through me.." by Jesus. That is the
>> central theme of Christianity).
No comments? Then you must agree with this....
> ____
>
> So not only has this subject had more light shed on it, but perhaps the
> character of one of its most vocal and misinformed critics has been
> illuminated *through the understanding of his birth chart* for others to
> see.
You really think you can, through superstition, get to know me? You won't,
but I know you'll never realize this and that you don't care.
Aquinas24
>Does the bible tell us in any way that we should not
>study astrology? This really confuses me.
I don't know about the Bible (although the Wise Men in the Christmas story have
been promoted/demoted [depending on your point of view] to "Astrologers" in my
lifetime). But theologians have had their say so about astrology for
centuries. If memory serves Augustine rubbished it and Aquinas said it was ok.
Currently it is on the Catholic Church's enemies list (New Catechism makes it
sinful because it is supposed to predict the future).
Astrology has had an on again off again relationship with Christianity. The
reason, in some form or another, has to do with the teaching that man has a
free will. Some churchmen see astrology as running counter to that teaching so
they lump it in with other forms of divination. Most astrologers do not see it
as a form of divination and therefore claim exemption.
Tom