Anyone any ideas about how astrology works?
Brendan Carson
I'm a writer, and I was wondering about two things:
First: how do you believe astrology works? What is it about the moon
being in scorpio, for example, that makes someone's personality turn
out different from someone with Neptune in Leo, for example? Is it
gravity or something else? A variety of theories is good, I'm not
after THE truth.
2. I have heard of the 'everyday" astrology (twelve signs of th
ezodiac and so on) and of the Chinese system, are there any other ones
about which there is any information? Babylonian, that kind of stuff.
I am sure that virtually all cultures practiced astrology of some
kind or another, but are there any details?
I should point out that I don't "believe in" astrology (it's a free
country) and I'm not that interested in anyone tryiong to prove to me
that it works (like you probably are not interested in someone trying
to prove to you that it doesn't). All I want is an insight into how
believers in astrology view the world.
BDC
Ray Murphy
In article <d61d52c1.01101...@posting.google.com>,
gunc...@optusnet.com.au (Brendan Carson) wrote:
RM: Let's look at a few kinds of astrology to begin with:
Chinese astrology - I don't believe in it at all. I haven't
investigated it very much, but from the bits I've seen it looks like a
complete waste of time because of an incredible amount of ambiguity.
Indian (Hindu or Vedic astrology) - I believe from the many reports
from credible people that there is a lot in it - particularly when
practised in India. It has a lot of similarities to our Western
astrology.
Western astrology - My father taught me a nominal amount about it when
I was a child and I quickly found that there WAS a certain amount of
value in it after observing the Sun Signs of classmates at school for
years and then random acquaintances during a few more decades. I was
not convinced it had a lot of value because of the similarities that
people with different Sun Signs had to other Signs.
It was when I started studying astrology seriously that I found that
astrology was a lot MORE than just Sun Signs, and many of the
anomalies which I had observed were easily explained.
The real proof (for me) came when I discovered the value of
interpreting "transits" to a natal charts for the future and the past.
Lots more proof came when I was able to tell people the angular
relationship between planets in the sky on their birth dates, simply
by looking at them and listening to them. (In one case I asked a
lecturing Psychologist if he had Sun conjunct Neptune on the day he
was born, and subsequent enquiries showed that he did have).
Further proof came after procesing dozens of "event dates" which
people had supplied and a good percentage of those events corresponded
with astrological theory AND "on time".
There have been thousands of experiences I have had which have
convinced me absolutely that a good part of Western Tropical astrology
is quite valid, but I have also found that there is quite a lot of
stuff which appears useless (in my hands at least).
We don't know HOW Western Tropical astrology works, but we believe (or
have observed) "That there is a correspondence between what goes on up
there - and what goes on down here".
The concept of humans (or life-forms) being somehow "synchronised" to
the movement of planets is ok to a certain extent, but it doesn't
account for the fact that there is no DIRECT synchronization because
*most* of the corresondences occur when planets "appear" to be in a
certain location (as viewed from Earth) - rather than their ACTUAL
location. My only explanation for this phenomena is that humans (or
life-forms) can actually *sense* where the planets are - just like we
can "sense" where the Sun is, but without using the physical senses.
My only other explanation for the fact that astrology works is that
*our astrology* originated as a useless myth but somehow the theories
of astrologers through the ages have somehow been "projected" onto the
heavens (or onto Nature) and some of it has become "real". [This of
course, while sounding preposterous may still be possible].
One supporting argument for this theory is the fact that astrologers
have claimed rather definite boundaries for the Signs of the zodiac
(30 degrees each) and surprisingly, these are found (in practice) to
be remarkably accurate. (Personally I cannot imagine that "Nature"
would have divided anything up into 12 neat divisions of 30 degrees. I
could understand Nature dividing anything up into 2, 4, 8, 16, 32 etc
boundaries (in fact it does) but NOT 12.
Still, "Nature" should not be under-estimated, because we only need
look around at any living thing to see the capability of Nature. Take
a look also at the cyclic period of planets and also how the intensity
of light behaves. It's almost as though a mathematician dreamt up the
rules.
In the case of planetary cycles "Nature" dreamt up the rule that if we
use (say) Sun-Earth distance as a measuring stick (called AU's -
astronomical units) we can find the cyclic period of a planet (in
Earth years) by finding the mean distance to the planet in AU's and
multiplying by the square root of that number to give Earth years for
each cycle - EXACTLY. Nature also provides for the planet "going
off-course" when it gets near another planet, BUT the planet always
makes up time and completes each cycle exactly according to the rule.
The intensity of light at certain distances also behaves precisely
according to a simple rule involving the square root, but I won't bore
you with that now.
These are only two examples of "Nature" using its own mathematical
system, and there would be hundreds of other interesting examples
which our more educated friends could quote. So it's not impossible
for Nature to have devised that neat "Twelve divisions of the circle"
if it was able to mess around with far more complex routines :-)>
Brendan, I know you said you were not interested in proof of astrology
but if you ever do become interested in seeing what astrologers CAN do
- take my advice and deal with an astrologer who is recommended,
rather than dealing with a dabbler who has read a few paperbacks on
the subject.
I won't answer your other questions because this post is a bit long
already.
Ray Murphy
Anne
research for that matter if they want to be taken seriously,
especially, dare I say, if they want to become a critic because any of
their criticisms will have more 'bites' if they show a profound
understanding of their subject matter and can show a good argument why
they do not agree with it. This may involve talking to people BUT
MOST IMPORTANTLY, read up on the subject as much as possible, to the
extent that they have quite a GOOD idea so that when they talk to
people they know what these people are talking about!!
There are a tremendously amount of information in Astrology. Given
that you want to write about Astrology BUT don't believe in it, I am
most hesitant to give you a brief account on the things you want to
know because the chance is that the impression you perceive of any
views you are given would be either too simplistics or be
re-paraphased as such and may become inaccurate/unsound.
Unfortunately the average library do not stock more than very basic
Astrology books but you may be able to go to a specialise bookshop,
failing that, ask where the local branch of your Astrological
Association Library is and see whether you can use it to do your
research.
If you genuinely want to find out how Astrology works, there are many
good writers you can read up on but I am reading a book by Dennis
Elwell titled 'Cosmic Loom', a very good book and it gives a very
intellectual account of how Astrology WORKS and I recommend this
highly. This book has been revised and reprinted by the Urania Trust
in the UK recently. Hope you will get this book and read it before
you go any further.
Good luck with your research. Kind regards.
gunc...@optusnet.com.au (Brendan Carson) wrote in message news:<d61d52c1.01101...@posting.google.com>...
Anne
> RM: Let's look at a few kinds of astrology to begin with:
>
> Chinese astrology - I don't believe in it at all. I haven't
> investigated it very much, but from the bits I've seen it looks like a
> complete waste of time because of an incredible amount of ambiguity.
>
Hello Ray, I am SOOOOOOOOO surprised with this comment of yours (and
perhaps a teeny bit offended). From what I see, very few people
(apart from some Chinese scholars or Western scholars specialised on
Chinese culture) actually know about Chinese Astrology. Most people
know only about the 12 animal signs (by year not by month as in the
Western Astrology). A few more know about the Japanese version of
Chinese Astrology which is based on numerology 'Ki'. For as long as I
have lived in the West, nobody I came across know anything about the
real Chinese Astrology which is based on lunar mansions and other
calculations. Rarely you come across someone who have some ideas
about lunar mansions but from what I gathered the knowledge they have
is somewhat scattered.
Even though I cannot tell you much about Chinese Astrology but I have
little doubts I know more than the average Western Astrologer. I came
across some of the books as a child whilst my half-sister (a
generation older) was dabbling in it so I know how fascinated I was
with the accurate though fatalistic predictions (I appreciate it even
more now that I am older and see things coming true). I can only say
that due to the general lack of available information, few and fewer
people are learning it, even fewer are qualified to practice it. One
thing I am certain though, it is not a complete waste of time because
once you master it, you'll be so surprised how profound it really is.
When you say ambiguity, it is because not that many people are able to
truly understand, and accurately translate the classical language.
Put it down to the deficiency in translation but please don't put it
down because you are not capable of understanding it.
I don't really appreciate anyone who make scathing remarks about
something which they know nothing about, it just show how arrogant and
ignorant they are. And frankly I am very disappointed this kind of
comments actually come from you, Ray.
Ray Murphy
In article <2bc8d16f.01101...@posting.google.com>,
honey...@yahoo.com (Anne) wrote:
RM: Anne, I was saying:
>> Chinese astrology - I don't believe in it at all. I haven't
>> investigated it very much, but from the bits I've seen it looks like a
>> complete waste of time because of an incredible amount of ambiguity.
Chinese astrology, as it's known by the average person in the West
(through magazines) is not much different to Tropical astrology - BOTH
appear to a discerning person to contain an incredible amount of
ambiguity; although a lot less in Tropical astrology because the
average person is aware of 12 distinct types of people in a year
compared with 1 in the Chinese system for a slightly shorter year.
My statement was not meant to be interpreted as "scathing" but merely
my assessment of how Chinese astrology appears to me.
With Tropical astrology I was able to pick peoples' Sun Signs to a
reasonable extent as a child, but with Chinese astrology I have had no
such luck.
My comments are not in the same category as the scathing (or more
accurately - idiotic) comments about Tropical astrology by skeptics
because, unlike them, I am not saying that Chinese astrology doesn't
work without having investigated it. It MAY work, but the descriptions
of the various animal Signs LOOK very ambiguous to me.
If any system of astrology is to be taken seriously by casual
observers it must deliver readings which are easily identifiable as
being accurate a fair amount of the time.
It is not the job of casual observers to "investigate" any type of
astrology or other oddball subjects - or even the professions. All
must deliver the goods.
Most people have faith in Meteorologists, Engineers, Doctors,
Optometrists etc, because they deliver what they say they will on most
occasions, but fewer people have faith in Politicians, Second-hand car
dealers, Journalists, and astrologers because they don't.
So what I'm saying is: Chinese astrology is delivering far less than
Tropical astrology, even though it may be capable of a lot more; so
until it does it looks like a complete waste of time.
It would be good to hear a bit about Chinese astrology on the
newsgroup, including some anecdotal evidence. I know that is not
always worth very much, but right now, anything is better than
nothing.
Ray
Brendan Carson
honey...@yahoo.com (Anne) wrote in message news:<2bc8d16f.01101...@posting.google.com>...
> As far as I know, writers do their own research, many do serious
> research for that matter if they want to be taken seriously,
> especially, dare I say, if they want to become a critic because any of
> their criticisms will have more 'bites' if they show a profound
> understanding of their subject matter and can show a good argument why
> they do not agree with it.
I am sure this is true. But I'm not going to be a critic. As I said,
I am not interested in trying to prove anything either way. What I
have is a character who is a believer in astrology, and I want that
character to be believeable, so I want what he believes about
astrology to be believable. Nobody in the story (or out of it) is
arguing about whether astrology works. My previous characters have
included people who use science and people who use magic, the young,
the old, fundamentalists and liberals, virtually every kind of person.
For all of those I've done "research" so that what they say or do
"rings true". A lot of my characters have believed things I haven't.
This character (the one who believes in astrology) is not the villain
or the "clown", by the way. He's the hero.
I think, and excuse me if I'm wrong, that you're being a bit overly
sensitive about this: you use terms like "if they want to be taken
seriously", the kind of mild dig that precedes an argument, and you
also state you are hesitant to give me any information at all in case
I rephrase it and make it out that you said something you didn't. I
also note that this is a moderated group and the unmoderated group I
checked out first seemed to be the usual hell-holes of poisonous abuse
and PEOPLE WITH THE CAPS LOCK STUCK ON.
I guess that this means you (plural) have had a fair amount of hassle
with people who don't believe what you believe.
Now I may be wrong about what I have just said, and therefor this next
paragraph may be complete rubbish, but: I am not trying to give you
hassle. I'm not trying to tell you how wonderful my beliefs are and
how crap yours are. Not all "non-believers" are the same. I don't
believe in astrology, but that doesn't mean I am out to convert
anyone, or attack anyone's bliefs in any way. Like I said, it's a
free country: you believe what you want and I'll believe in what I
want. All I want is some information.
This may involve talking to people BUT
> MOST IMPORTANTLY, read up on the subject as much as possible, to the
> extent that they have quite a GOOD idea so that when they talk to
> people they know what these people are talking about!!
>
Thta's why I'm here.
> There are a tremendously amount of information in Astrology. Given
> that you want to write about Astrology BUT don't believe in it, I am
> most hesitant to give you a brief account on the things you want to
> know because the chance is that the impression you perceive of any
> views you are given would be either too simplistics or be
> re-paraphased as such and may become inaccurate/unsound.
I suppose if someone were to come to me and ask for a detailed defense
of what I believe then I would be a bit hestant too. But that's not
what I am asking: there is no need for a defense because there is no
attack. I have been involved in debates over the net a few times,
most recently with someone on "race" and intelligence, and they are
usually huge wastes of time. THe reason I am asking for information
here is that I have a virtually no knowledge fo the subject at all and
I am sure for every bit of useful astrological information out there
there are thirty or so bits of rubbish (like there is with everything
else), and most of it is incomprehensible to me. Rather than wade
through the disnformation I am asking the people here.
>
> If you genuinely want to find out how Astrology works, there are many
> good writers you can read up on but I am reading a book by Dennis
> Elwell titled 'Cosmic Loom', a very good book and it gives a very
> intellectual account of how Astrology WORKS and I recommend this
> highly.
Excellent. I'll look it up.
Thanks a lot,
BDC.
PS: I was born 8:35 pm, January 27th 1967, in Perth, Western
Australia. WA has sometimes had summer "daylight savings" time, but I
don't know if it did in 1967 (I was very young at the time).
SeaGtGruff
[...]
> Chinese astrology - I don't believe in it at all. I haven't
> investigated it very much, but from the bits I've seen it looks like a
> complete waste of time because of an incredible amount of ambiguity.
[...]
The brand of Chinese astrology which is seen in most popular books is extremely
simplistic. True Chinese astrology is far more complex than just the "year
sign"-- it also considers the month of birth, day of birth, and hour of birth.
There are actually different kinds of Chinese astrology (I think). One type
uses a chart which looks very similar to a square or rectangular astrological
chart-- there are twelve houses (but not quite the same as the houses used in
Western or Vedic astrology), and within these houses are placed various "stars"
(Sun? Moon? planets? stars?). This is not to be confused with the "Nine Star
Ki" system, which I think is actually Japanese numerology(?).
Many of the popular books on Chinese astrology completely ignore the months,
days, or hours, but there are some books which do cover these topics, and they
are worth looking into, even if they're basically just the equivalent of
Western "pop astrology" books which delineate only the Sun sign, Moon sign, and
rising sign.
I have one book by a Korean author (I think) which describes how to construct a
twelve-house chart, complete with "stars" in the houses, but I'm not sure what
these "stars" are, as their positions are determined by tables based on the
year, month, day, and hour of birth-- and in some cases, the gender of the
native-- but they aren't ephemeris tables. The "stars" have no logical motion
that I can determine, because they don't stick together or move in the same
direction (as would be expected of actual stars being "carried" around the
heavens by the rotation of the Earth), nor are the tables complicated enough
for some of the "stars" to be planets. I have no idea how accurate that
particular book is at what it explains-- that is, how "correct" are the charts
which the book teaches the reader how to set up and read-- but it's still a
very interesting book.
I have another book on Chinese astrology by Derek Walters, which is a scholarly
or academic examination of Chinese astrology. It is by far the best book on
Chinese astrology which I own, although it definitely isn't a textbook on how
to set up and read Chinese astrological charts.
There is much that I don't understand about Chinese astrology, and I'm
reluctant to embrace it without being able to fully understand what a chart
actually represents (i.e., in the same sense that I understand what a Western
or Vedic astrological represents in terms of the celestial sphere). However, I
know enough about it to understand that elements, cardinal directions, and not
a little bit of numerology are important in it. Chinese astrology (or some
brands of it) also makes use of the Chinese Lunar mansions and Chinese
constellations. I would love to study it under someone who truly knows all
about it, so I could ask a lot of questions and get solid answers.
For example, the popular books which include the hour signs all divide the day
into twelve two-hour periods (1 to 3 a.m., 3 to 5 a.m., 5 to 7 a.m., and so
on), but that just makes me want to know about what is done regarding time
zones, true local time, and so on. Am I supposed to adjust my given time of
birth before looking it up in the tables?
Unfortunately, none of the books I've seen cover Chinese astrology in a way
that I'm satisfied with, because they're either a bit over my head (as with the
book by the Korean author, or the book by Derek Walters), or they're far too
simplistic to suit me. I'm gratified that some books tell me my rising sign is
the Rooster and what that means, or that I was born during a certain month of
the Chinese year and what that means, or that I was born in a year of the Dog
(apparently the Earth Dog-- although one book says it was the Metal Dog) and
what that means. But it all leaves me looking for something more substantial
and explanatory.
It's like buying a book of Sun-Moon-Ascendant delineations containing
simplified tables for finding your Sun sign, Moon sign, and rising sign, but
knowing that the tables are only approximate, and that there is much more to a
chart than the Sun, Moon, and Ascendant-- yet not being able to find a book
that explains what all the parts of a "true" and "complete" astrological chart
are and how to calculate and read one, and not being able to find any
ephemerides or tables of houses or instructions on how to use them. You *know*
there's more to it, and that the popular books are grossly simplified, but
darned if you can find anything that lays it all out step-by-step in a way you
can sink your teeth into. And when you finally find a book that looks
promising (like the one by Derek Walters), it turns out to be more of a history
book or dictionary or encyclopedia, rather than a "how to" instructional
textbook per se.
What I've seen of Chinese astrology convinces me that it's every bit as
sophisticated and complex as Western astrology. And even the few simplified
(and not-so-simplified) books I do own on Chinese astrology are enough to
indicate that it seems pretty accurate-- such as what one popular book says
about me as far as being a Dog with the Rooster rising (something like "this is
a Dog who loves to preach, but it takes him so long to get to the point")! :-)
Michael Rideout
Ray Murphy
----------
In article <d61d52c1.01101...@posting.google.com>,
gunc...@optusnet.com.au (Brendan Carson) wrote:
RM: Brendan, it seems that you want to know how we DO astrology,
rather than how it *works*.
Here's a brief rundown:
Astrology is the art of finding out about a person's character and
personality according to the positions of the planets, Sun & Moon on
their date and time of birth because astrologers believe (and can see)
that there is a correspondence betwen those things. This art is 4000
years older than Christianity.
The horoscope is a simplified map which shows where the relevant
celestial bodies were at the time of birth, and we apply meaning to
the various locations of those bodies and the angles between them and
gradually build up a picture of the person and can give a "reading" to
a client or friend which should in nearly all cases give a reasonably
accurate outline of that person WITHOUT a lot of ambiguity. For
example, an astrology student of 12 months should be able to write
quite different things for your birth date and your brother's or
father's birth dates, and you should be able to see which reading
belongs to each person quite easily. There WILL be overlap of course,
but that's because we all have ALL characteristics, but what
astrologers look for is stuff that's prominent.
After reading a natal chart, astrologers may look at the transits to
that chart to see what angles are being progressively made as the
planets continue to move around the chart after birth.
We use an ephemeris to find the daily positions of the planets for
every day of the century, so it's easy to find where everything has
moved to.
These "new angles" that are made between the "stationery" birth chart
and the future date ALSO tell a story.
The astronomy and mathematics which are used in astrology are highly
accurate, and things like daylight saving time, exact geographic
location are all properly accounted for.
There are numerous meanings associated with the Signs the planets are
in, and also the angular relationship between them (arc of separation)
and these have been built up over the centuries. There is also added
meaning according to the actual Houses those planets fall in - and
these Houses are constantly moving according to the rotation of the
Earth. This means that one twin could be born 20 minutes later than
the first but have some pretty big differences in the horoscope.
-------
When you get around to writing about astrology in your book it would
be a good idea to get an astrologer to see your work in case you've
accidentally used incorrect terminology or astronomical
impossibilities. For example you can't say that a person had Sun
square Venus or Neptne square Pluto in their natal chart.
You were saying above:
>PS: I was born 8:35 pm, January 27th 1967, in Perth, Western
>Australia. WA has sometimes had summer "daylight savings" time, but I
>don't know if it did in 1967 (I was very young at the time).
Australia didn't have daylight saving until 1972 but did have some
daylight saving during the two world wars.
I just had a quick look at your chart and have these few comments
about the near future:
18th Oct - potential for conflict for about 24 hrs.
20th Oct - potential for conflict for about 24 hrs.
21st Oct - tendency to be too gung ho for a day + conflict.
22nd Oct - tendency to be too gung ho for a day + steady progress.
23rd Oct - terriffic for writing or communication
25th + 26th Oct - potential for over enthusiasm
After the end of the month there are two very strong (long- term)
indicators for success in writing or communication, although you have
another transit (lasting many weeks) which can make you feel
demoralised or perhaps not quite as sharp mentally as you normally
are.
Normally on aamod we don't say very much about peoples' charts unless
they specifically ask or give permision, but the above stuff is
nothing to get offended about.
Ray Murphy
Ray Murphy
----------
In article <20011017232249...@mb-mh.aol.com>,
seagt...@aol.com (SeaGtGruff) wrote:
>Ray Murphy (ray...@box.net.au) wrote:
>
>[...]
>> Chinese astrology - I don't believe in it at all. I haven't
>> investigated it very much, but from the bits I've seen it looks like a
>> complete waste of time because of an incredible amount of ambiguity.
>[...]
>
>The brand of Chinese astrology which is seen in most popular books is
>extremely
>simplistic. True Chinese astrology is far more complex than just the "year
>sign"-- it also considers the month of birth, day of birth, and hour of
>birth.
>There are actually different kinds of Chinese astrology (I think). One type
>uses a chart which looks very similar to a square or rectangular astrological
>chart-- there are twelve houses (but not quite the same as the houses used in
>Western or Vedic astrology), and within these houses are placed various
>"stars"
>(Sun? Moon? planets? stars?). This is not to be confused with the "Nine Star
>Ki" system, which I think is actually Japanese numerology(?).
>
>Many of the popular books on Chinese astrology completely ignore the months,
>days, or hours, but there are some books which do cover these topics,
and ....
<SNIPPED GOOD STUFF>
>What I've seen of Chinese astrology convinces me that it's every bit as
>sophisticated and complex as Western astrology. And even the few simplified
>(and not-so-simplified) books I do own on Chinese astrology are enough to
>indicate that it seems pretty accurate-- such as what one popular book says
>about me as far as being a Dog with the Rooster rising (something like
>"this is
>a Dog who loves to preach, but it takes him so long to get to the point")!
>:-)
>
>Michael Rideout
RM: Very good post.
Well I've learned something really useful in your last paragraph
alone.
I can see that there's no way I'm a "dog with the rooster rising" :-)>
(Sometimes I miss the point altogether or leave out important
paragraphs!).
Ray
SeaGtGruff
[...]
> I am sure this is true. But I'm not going to be a critic. As I said,
> I am not interested in trying to prove anything either way. What I
> have is a character who is a believer in astrology, and I want that
> character to be believeable, so I want what he believes about
> astrology to be believable. Nobody in the story (or out of it) is
> arguing about whether astrology works. My previous characters have
> included people who use science and people who use magic, the young,
> the old, fundamentalists and liberals, virtually every kind of person.
> For all of those I've done "research" so that what they say or do
> "rings true". A lot of my characters have believed things I haven't.
> This character (the one who believes in astrology) is not the villain
> or the "clown", by the way. He's the hero.
[...]
You might have gotten a different reaction from some people if you'd explained
that you're a *fictional* writer who is developing a character who believes in
astrology, because I think we assumed that you were a *nonfictional* writer who
is planning to write something about astrology. That's probably why some of
the responses you got came across as overly sensitive or defensive or
judgmental.
What you might want to do to make your hero more believable to readers familiar
with astrology-- and to help your references to astrology "ring true"-- is tell
us what his main personality traits are, what his intellectual interests (other
than astrology) are, what some of the significant background events in his life
were (not necessarily anything complex, but perhaps something along the lines
of any parental or family issues), so we can suggest a hypothetical birth chart
for him. And if he believes in astrology, what kind of role does his belief
play in your story? For example, if he's familiar with his own natal chart,
does he have any "issues" with it, such as blaming his defects or misfortunes
on his natal placements or aspects, or progressions or transits? Does he use
astrology to analyze or predict anything about his interpersonal relationships
with people? How does he use astrology in his everyday life? How does his
belief in astrology impact his everyday behavior? (Or is that part of what
you're asking us about our own belief in astrology, to help you can make your
hero more believable?)
[...]
> I
> also note that this is a moderated group and the unmoderated group I
> checked out first seemed to be the usual hell-holes of poisonous abuse
> and PEOPLE WITH THE CAPS LOCK STUCK ON.
[...]
Although this moderated newsgroup was at least partly formed to give people who
are seriously interested in astrology a refuge of sorts from the unmoderated
newsgroup, some of us do read the unmoderated newsgroup, and have friends who
prefer the more liberal (i.e., unmoderated) climate there. I'm not saying this
to criticize your comments about the unmoderated newsgroup, merely warning you
that your comments might stir up additional defensiveness or sensitivities.
[...]
> PS: I was born 8:35 pm, January 27th 1967, in Perth, Western
> Australia. WA has sometimes had summer "daylight savings" time, but I
> don't know if it did in 1967 (I was very young at the time).
We can look up the correct time change information; it's part of what we do!
:-) By the way, standard time was in effect. I looked it up on the internet
at http://www.astro.com (Astrodienst), which you might want to check out if
you'd like to see what your natal chart looks like, because you can input your
place, date, and time of birth at that web site and get a free natal chart.
Your own chart might be a good place to start, for at least two reasons.
First, getting some comments from us about your own chart may help you gain a
better sense of the kinds of things that astrologers "get" out of reading a
chart.
And second, writers often create characters who are "alter egos" for
themselves-- if not exact mirrors of themselves, then at least a representation
of some small portion of their psyches. Obviously, a writer doesn't write
*only* about characters who are in some way similar to themselves. But writers
who can "get inside" their characters-- which implies being able to think like
them (which implies *some* type of connection or similarity)-- generally end up
creating more believable characters. Thus, if you want your hero to be more
believable, and if you want him to "live inside you" to the extent that he
almost seems to "write himself," then you might want to learn about anything in
your own chart which resonates with your hero's intended character traits or
experiences.
I'll start by saying that you have Gemini on your Midheaven, which is the
stereotypical indicator of a professional writer (because the Midheaven or
10th-House cusp indicates your career, and Gemini is associated with writing
and communicating and ideas). You have Neptune in your 3rd House, which
suggests a fictional writer (because Neptune is associated with fantasy, and
the 3rd House is associated with writing).
I also see that you have Mercury in your 6th House, trine your Midheaven, which
is another possible indication that you work as a writer-- especially with
Mercury being the ruler of Gemini, the sign on your Midheaven.
You have the Moon in a fairly close applying opposition to Venus, with the Moon
and Venus closely squaring Neptune, forming an aspect configuration called a
"T-Square." This suggests possible problems relating to women (because the
Moon and Venus are both feminine symbols), especially in terms of trust and
confusion (because Neptune can be related to lies and deception, or
difficulties seeing the truth behind all of the smoke and mirrors). This
doesn't necessarily mean that you lie to women, or that they lie to you, but it
does suggest (in my opinion) that you may have relationship problems caused by
too much idealism, such as wanting women to fulfill your fantasies of what the
ideal woman should be, but then being disappointed by women because they don't
live up to your image of the perfect woman. (Neptune can represent fantasies
and the dream of something that's ideal.)
You also have Pisces on your Descendant, or the cusp of your 7th House (which
is the house of marriage, partners, and "significant others" in general), and
this also indicates that your relationships may be typified by confusion or
deception or excessive idealism-- as well as a certain amount of sacrifice on
your part, or wanting to be a savior of sorts for people in need. (Pisces is
the sign of persecution, people in need, self-sacrifice, and extreme empathy
for other people.) In the modern rulership scheme, Pisces is said to be ruled
by Neptune, so your Moon-Venus-Neptune T-Square has a significant bearing on
your 7th-House matters.
Difficult aspects between the Moon and Venus can indicate that the native may
have difficulty feeling loved or lovable or worthy of love in some way. (I
have the Moon square Venus, so I'm actually talking about myself here just as
much as talking about you.) You might even associate with people who are
beneath you in some way, because you don't feel qualified or worthy of
associating with people who are equal to or above you. I'm not suggesting that
you consciously look for people you think are beneath you in some way, but
rather that you may abase yourself because you don't feel as worthy as you
actually are, such that you may gravitate toward people who aren't as
intimidating to you, or that you may feel more kinship with people who are
"low" in society's eyes, because you are "low" in your own eyes. This may or
may not be true of you, so don't get insulted if you feel it doesn't apply to
you, because I'm not trying to insult you (as these statements could just as
easily apply to me with my Moon square Venus).
However, your Moon-Venus-Neptune T-Square (with Pisces descending) suggests to
me that you may go out of your way to help women in need-- perhaps in the hope
that they'll appreciate you for riding to their rescue, and love you for it--
but with the danger that you'll end up being disappointed by them if you
subsequently find out that they don't actually love you, and that they may even
have been "using" you (in your eventual opinion) to get something that they
needed at the time, and that they threw you away so to speak once you'd
outlived your usefulness to them. Again, that may not apply to you, but you
might need to watch out for that tendency.
The Moon can also represent the mother, and Venus can represent the wife or
lover, so there's a possibility that your own mother was disadvantaged or
troubled in some way, and that you gravitate toward women who are disadvantaged
or troubled because you subconsciously connect their plight with your mother's
plight-- or even because you felt that your mother didn't love you enough, or
that you weren't worthy of her love for some reason, so you go out of your way
to try to win the love of women who somehow remind you of your mother.
If the preceding comments don't sound much like you, you might still want to
pattern your hero along those lines if it fits in with your story, because your
chart suggests that you might find it easy to "get inside" such a character.
And I readily admit that I've focused in on just one portion of your chart, so
I've also ignored many other portions of your chart (such as the Moon sextile
Mars, and Venus trine Mars, which suggest that you may find it easy to relate
successfully to women on a passionate or sexual level). Consequently, my
partial interpretation is unnecessarily (and unwisely) skewed toward a part of
your chart which might not be giving you any trouble.
You've been experiencing transiting Neptune conjunct your natal Sun for the
last year or so, and it will continue for a little while longer. This could
suggest a number of different possibilities, such as a general feeling of
confusion about who you really are and what kind of service you really want to
perform, or dabbling too much in drink or drugs, or feeling very inspired or
spiritual, or wanting to fulfill your innermost dreams, or-- given the
condition of your natal Neptune-- feeling lost or disillusioned or out-of-sorts
with yourself due to a rather unhappy or disappointing love affair. As far as
that last suggestion goes, I mean that if you recently tried to play the hero
to a woman in need, and she ended up using you and then spurning you, you might
be questioning yourself as to who you are, and why you are the way you are, as
if the experience made you doubt yourself, or made you question your worthiness
in some manner (e.g., "If only I had been more this or more that, then she
would have loved me"). Transiting Neptune conjunct the Sun can help you feel
very inspired and uplifted, or it can encourage you to doubt yourself, so I
can't tell you which of those extremes you'll experience; I can only point out
some of the possibilities. If you *have* been inclined toward self-doubt
lately, then I suggest that you focus more on filling yourself with inspiration
and a desire to fulfill your dreams.
I should stop now, because if I've been giving you a bum reading of your chart,
it would be better to shut up than to keep digging myself deeper into a load of
crap. :-)
Michael Rideout
Anne
you could be fair minded about things here. Why couldn't you accept
that from time to time there are things we don't know anything about
and it doesn't mean that what we don't know have no value.
"Ray Murphy" <ray...@box.net.au> wrote in message
> If any system of astrology is to be taken seriously by casual
> observers it must deliver readings which are easily identifiable as
> being accurate a fair amount of the time.
A: Forget about accuracy for one second, as far as I know there is
nobody in the West who can deliver any 'readings'. So this question of
accuracy does not arise.
> It is not the job of casual observers to "investigate" any type of
> astrology or other oddball subjects - or even the professions. All
> must deliver the goods.
A: Indeed. But the situation is that the casual observer (you) in
this case don't know about the subject, have no time to explore and no
patience for any expert to emerge to give the answers, dismiss the
subject out of hands as a 'waste of time'.
> Most people have faith in Meteorologists, Engineers, Doctors,
> Optometrists etc, because they deliver what they say they will on most
> occasions, but fewer people have faith in Politicians, Second-hand car
> dealers, Journalists, and astrologers because they don't.
Exactly. There are so many astrologers whose qualification comprise
of reading a few paperbacks (as someone said it). Are we surprised
that Astrology is much discredited? The reason we have faith in
Meterologists, Engineers etc because those subjects are difficult to
learn, we think (and hope) they deliver the goods. As long as we don't
see any catastropic failures we believe in them. If you have worked
with them (I did with some trouble-shooting structural engineers) and
of course we all have stories about some doctors, you may end up
knowing too much nobody else knows about and couldn't go to sleep at
night!
To be honest, the average Chinese person wouldn't think of Animal
Signs as 'Astrology'. They think of the Animal Signs as Animal Signs.
Predictions every new year generally give them a favour of what they
can expect during the year. Like Sun Sign Astrology how much each
person believes is really none of others people business. However,
they go to the experts when they want to have their destiny foretold
and it takes a lot of works (calculations and understanding of the
principles, etc) not unlike Western Astrology. Of course there are
people who dismiss this as superstitions but those who consults the
'Astrologer' respect them and understand that it is a profound science
which not just every layman could learn in three months.
I don't intend to write a 'treatise' on Chinese Astrology because I
can't claim to have the knowledge (yet). If I can, I will write a
book instead so that I can benefit from the void in the niche
Astrology market ;)
I also don't want to go on and on because it is getting tedious. As a
taster - One principle I suggest anyone who thinks about learning
Chinese Astrology as a predictive tool to bear in mind is: in order to
chart and predict event, or do 'horary work', one doesn't only look to
'heaven' but also to the 'earth' and the 'person'.
I would put the literal translation as 'The time of the heaven, the
beneficience of landscape and the harmony of people'. Heaven refers
to the Universe, the Earth are represented by Feng Shui (This is much
more than about furniture placement and which is much misused as it
came into fashion in the past years), and the People refers to one's
social relatonships and what I would refer to as Psychological
Astrology.
Kind regards.
P.
Ray Murphy
>Ray, I am not trying to pick an argument with you but I just wish that
>you could be fair minded about things here.
RM: The great thing about these newsgroups is that there is far less
chance of domination by individuals than in organised astrology groups
because everyone can debate or challenge anything they like, and if we
disagree about various things doesn't mean we dislike each other.
I am not insulting you because I said something negative about Chinese
astrology as it is generally known in the West. I've said virtually
the same thing about Sun sign astrology in newspapers - and so have
the vast majority of astrologers I know.
Now that's being fair minded.
>Why couldn't you accept
>that from time to time there are things we don't know anything about
>and it doesn't mean that what we don't know have no value.
RM: It is absurd for anyone to state that something has no value if
they know nothing about it, but that didn't happen on this occasion. I
was saying that I do know something about it (although not very much)
but from what I *do* know Chinese astrology looks like a waste of time
and I gave my reason for that conclusion.
For all I knew, I could have beeen the only member of this group who
had that opinion and others may have pointed out that I was too quick
to reach that conclusion or that I was wrong. This is what we do here
- we say what we think or know and we're all learning every time we
come here.
>"Ray Murphy" <ray...@box.net.au> wrote in message
>
>> If any system of astrology is to be taken seriously by casual
>> observers it must deliver readings which are easily identifiable as
>> being accurate a fair amount of the time.
>
>A: Forget about accuracy for one second, as far as I know there is
>nobody in the West who can deliver any 'readings'. So this question of
>accuracy does not arise.
RM: I'm not sure what you mean here. Tropical astrologers and even
students of a just few weeks can do "readings" - that's what we do.
Obviously some are better than others, and some are extremely accurate
at times.
>
>> It is not the job of casual observers to "investigate" any type of
>> astrology or other oddball subjects - or even the professions. All
>> must deliver the goods.
>
>A: Indeed. But the situation is that the casual observer (you) in
>this case don't know about the subject, have no time to explore and no
>patience for any expert to emerge to give the answers, dismiss the
>subject out of hands as a 'waste of time'.
RM: I just finished saying that the casual observer doesn't *need* to
investigate.
If the casual observer or reader of a magazine hears what "pop"
Chinese astrology has to say about a few people he or she knows and
finds the whole thing completely ambiguous they may decide it is not
for them. People have a perfect right to dismiss it. The same applies
to Tropical astrology.
For example, if I tried to demonstrate astrology to someone and they
rejected it, I would make it quite clear that I am prepared to give
them more examples which will probably convince them. Now if that
happened with Chinese astrology (where I was offered more examples) I
would almost certainly listen.
>
>> Most people have faith in Meteorologists, Engineers, Doctors,
>> Optometrists etc, because they deliver what they say they will on most
>> occasions, but fewer people have faith in Politicians, Second-hand car
>> dealers, Journalists, and astrologers because they don't.
>
>Exactly. There are so many astrologers whose qualification comprise
>of reading a few paperbacks (as someone said it). Are we surprised
>that Astrology is much discredited?
RM: A person does not have to be highly qualified to be a good
astrologer, but it helps of course. The essential thing for being a
good astrologer is to talk about what one *knows* rather than quoting
all sorts of things they have heard and treating those things as
facts.
Many dabblers in astrology still don't know that we are only ever
talking about "increased potential" for anything we talk about and
continually mislead others by failing to mention this, and they
discredit astrology in the process.
There is no need in my opinion for anyone to attend formal lectures in
astrology as long as they continually aim for honesty, in fact
sometimes formal lectures are more of a hindrance than a help.
>The reason we have faith in
>Meterologists, Engineers etc because those subjects are difficult to
>learn, we think (and hope) they deliver the goods. As long as we don't
>see any catastropic failures we believe in them. If you have worked
>with them (I did with some trouble-shooting structural engineers) and
>of course we all have stories about some doctors, you may end up
>knowing too much nobody else knows about and couldn't go to sleep at
>night!
RM: 18,000 deaths each year in Australia because hospital staff won't
wash their bloody hands and make far too many stupid mistakes! I know.
>
>To be honest, the average Chinese person wouldn't think of Animal
>Signs as 'Astrology'. They think of the Animal Signs as Animal Signs.
>Predictions every new year generally give them a favour of what they
>can expect during the year. Like Sun Sign Astrology how much each
>person believes is really none of others people business.
RM: I think that Sun sign astrology IS correct for some people, some
of the time, and it may even beat "chance" but I doubt it very much.
(Magazine astrology which is more specific, can be quite valuable at
times).
>However,
>they go to the experts when they want to have their destiny foretold
>and it takes a lot of works (calculations and understanding of the
>principles, etc) not unlike Western Astrology. Of course there are
>people who dismiss this as superstitions but those who consults the
>'Astrologer' respect them and understand that it is a profound science
>which not just every layman could learn in three months.
RM: Tropical astrology cannot actually predict "destiny" but it can
predict increased potential for certain types of events to occur. Many
predictions are simply accurate guesses based on the potential and
known circumstances.
>
>I don't intend to write a 'treatise' on Chinese Astrology because I
>can't claim to have the knowledge (yet). If I can, I will write a
>book instead so that I can benefit from the void in the niche
>Astrology market ;)
RM: A great way to write such a book is to take notes *as we learn* so
that we can recall what the essential information is. It's *so easy*
after one becomes proficient to forget some of the basic things.
I remember when I first started studying astrology I was quite
surprised to find out that the planets all went around in "circles"
AND in the same direction! I didn't know this :-)>
Previously I had imagined that planets and stars just wandered all
over the place in chaotic order!
Of course when I found that there was an ephemeris that lasted longer
than 1 month (in the astrology magazine) I was blown away :-)>
>
>I also don't want to go on and on because it is getting tedious. As a
>taster - One principle I suggest anyone who thinks about learning
>Chinese Astrology as a predictive tool to bear in mind is: in order to
>chart and predict event, or do 'horary work', one doesn't only look to
>'heaven' but also to the 'earth' and the 'person'.
RM: That's what we do all the time in Tropical astrology. Sometimes we
also look at the person's partner or family and can see their
interaction.
>
>I would put the literal translation as 'The time of the heaven, the
>beneficience of landscape and the harmony of people'. Heaven refers
>to the Universe, the Earth are represented by Feng Shui (This is much
>more than about furniture placement and which is much misused as it
>came into fashion in the past years), and the People refers to one's
>social relatonships and what I would refer to as Psychological
>Astrology.
>
>Kind regards.
>
>P.
Ray
Bill Clissold
> -------
> When you get around to writing about astrology in your book it would
> be a good idea to get an astrologer to see your work in case you've
> accidentally used incorrect terminology or astronomical
> impossibilities. For example you can't say that a person had Sun
> square Venus or Neptne square Pluto in their natal chart.
>
Re the above statement.
I understand why one can't have a sun square venus, but could you explain
why one couldn't have a neptune square pluto?
Thanks
Bill
SeaGtGruff
Bill, it has to do with timing. A character *could* have Neptune square Pluto,
but only if they were born during a century or decade or year when that aspect
occurred (or will occur). Neptune conjoined Pluto a little before 1900 (around
1892, if I remember correctly). Since then, Neptune has moved further away
from Pluto, until it finally sextiled Pluto. But then Pluto went inside of
Neptune's orbit for a while, which meant Pluto was moving faster than Neptune
and starting to catch up to it, and they sextiled each other again. Then Pluto
moved outside of Neptune's orbit again, and Neptune is moving away from Pluto,
so they'll eventually sextile each other again. It will be a while before they
finally square each other. So if a character were either born in the future,
or about 500 years in the past, he or she could have Neptune square Pluto. But
if he or she were born during the latter half of the 20th century, Neptune
would mst likely have to be sextile Pluto.
Michael Rideout
Brendan Carson
> RM: Brendan, it seems that you want to know how we DO astrology,
> rather than how it *works*.
Probably that as well.
> Here's a brief rundown:
SNIP excellent stuff
> When you get around to writing about astrology in your book it would
> be a good idea to get an astrologer to see your work in case you've
> accidentally used incorrect terminology or astronomical
> impossibilities. For example you can't say that a person had Sun
> square Venus or Neptne square Pluto in their natal chart.
Thanks. It's actually a short story with an astrology-believing
character as the hero. I'd love to have it checked out by an
astrologer and may have found one who is willing to do the work/give
me a hand with things. Everything I write I try to make credible,
which is why I am trying to avoid embarrassing mistakes like the "Sun
square Venus" thing. Someone else in my writer's group wrote a story
using the terms "virus" and 'bacteria' interchangeably, not becauses
she was stupid but because she didn't have a background in that kind
of stuff. If I write "he had been born with Scorpio in the house of
Jupiter" instead of the other way around, it's going to be clear to
any astrologically literate people that I was too lazy to do my
homework, and their temporary belief in my hero is going to be
shattered.
>
> You were saying above:
>
> >PS: I was born 8:35 pm, January 27th 1967, in Perth, Western
> >Australia. WA has sometimes had summer "daylight savings" time, but I
> >don't know if it did in 1967 (I was very young at the time).
>
> Australia didn't have daylight saving until 1972 but did have some
> daylight saving during the two world wars.
>
> I just had a quick look at your chart and have these few comments
> about the near future:
>
> 18th Oct - potential for conflict for about 24 hrs.
> 20th Oct - potential for conflict for about 24 hrs.
> 21st Oct - tendency to be too gung ho for a day + conflict.
> 22nd Oct - tendency to be too gung ho for a day + steady progress.
> 23rd Oct - terriffic for writing or communication
> 25th + 26th Oct - potential for over enthusiasm
> After the end of the month there are two very strong (long- term)
> indicators for success in writing or communication, although you have
> another transit (lasting many weeks) which can make you feel
> demoralised or perhaps not quite as sharp mentally as you normally
> are.
>
Thanks a lot!
> Normally on aamod we don't say very much about peoples' charts unless
> they specifically ask or give permision, but the above stuff is
> nothing to get offended about.
>
I get offended once or twice a year, this hasn't been one of them.
Thanks for going to the trouble to answer, by the way.
BDC
Brendan Carson
> You might have gotten a different reaction from some people if you'd explained
> that you're a *fictional* writer who is developing a character who believes in
> astrology, because I think we assumed that you were a *nonfictional* writer who
> is planning to write something about astrology. That's probably why some of
> the responses you got came across as overly sensitive or defensive or
> judgmental.
Probably true. It was one of those things I just assumed. Sorry to
anyone I 'led astray".
Snip lots of fascinating and well thought out stuff.
>
> Although this moderated newsgroup was at least partly formed to give people who
> are seriously interested in astrology a refuge of sorts from the unmoderated
> newsgroup, some of us do read the unmoderated newsgroup, and have friends who
> prefer the more liberal (i.e., unmoderated) climate there. I'm not saying this
> to criticize your comments about the unmoderated newsgroup, merely warning you
> that your comments might stir up additional defensiveness or sensitivities.
No offence was meant, but it didn't seem either a pleasant or
productive place to stay. It reminds me of those "creationist versus
evolutionist" "discussions" that go on and on and on. Other people
obviously think it's worth their time.
>
> And second, writers often create characters who are "alter egos" for
> themselves-- if not exact mirrors of themselves, then at least a representation
> of some small portion of their psyches.
Amen. Jung has a lot to say about this.
> I'll start by saying that you have Gemini on your Midheaven, which is the
> stereotypical indicator of a professional writer (because the Midheaven or
> 10th-House cusp indicates your career, and Gemini is associated with writing
> and communicating and ideas). You have Neptune in your 3rd House, which
> suggests a fictional writer (because Neptune is associated with fantasy, and
> the 3rd House is associated with writing).
I'm a long way from a professional at the moment, but that's the plan.
> You have the Moon in a fairly close applying opposition to Venus, with the Moon
> and Venus closely squaring Neptune, forming an aspect configuration called a
> "T-Square." This suggests possible problems relating to women (because the
> Moon and Venus are both feminine symbols), especially in terms of trust and
> confusion (because Neptune can be related to lies and deception, or
> difficulties seeing the truth behind all of the smoke and mirrors). This
> doesn't necessarily mean that you lie to women, or that they lie to you, but it
> does suggest (in my opinion) that you may have relationship problems caused by
> too much idealism, such as wanting women to fulfill your fantasies of what the
> ideal woman should be, but then being disappointed by women because they don't
> live up to your image of the perfect woman. (Neptune can represent fantasies
> and the dream of something that's ideal.)
SNIP rest of reading.
I don't know about that. I've had less troubles than some people I
know, but the troubles I have had may have affected me more deeply...
I don't know. This probably isn't the forum for me to discuss things
like this, which are very personal. Why did you choose relationships
with women as an area to focus on?
By the way, I've always thought that those "disproofs" of astrology
where they give everyone in a room the same chart and see how many
people reckon it applies to them (lots do, I believe), say more about
human suggestibility and gullibility than they do about astrology.
Presumably, too, there are astrological characteristics (various
planets in various houses) that produce tendencies towards both
skepticism and credulity (both of those seem nasty words, and I don't
mean either of them in a nasty way). Thus if someone was skeptical
about astrology, they might have (I don't know) Jupiter in Ares or
something.
I don't know how much time this kind of stuff takes you, but thanks a
lot for the effort. It's very good of you.
BDC
Claude Latremouille
> Hail,
>
> I'm a writer, and I was wondering about two things:
>
> First: how do you believe astrology works?
It is my view that astrology does not 'work' in a mechanical
fashion. So, forget the idea of a transitive planetary influence.
There is no such influence, even though such influence 'appears'
to exist to the eye of the astrologer.
*
Astrology 'works' as a manifestation of the way the Universe
unfolds. Space and time are properties of matter, astrology
studies the relationships between various moments of space and
time and derives an understanding of such relationships.
*
Its geocentricity is merely the result of the fact that we live
on this Earth and therefore are using the neighbourhood (the
solar system) to base our study.
*
--
**** cj...@freenet.carleton.ca ****
C L A U D E L A T R E M O U I L L E
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Anne
Firstly, may I say that I am not defensive at all. In fact I look
forward to the day when someone does come up with a good criticism of
Astrology from a position of knowledge NOT ignorance. Even the most
severe critic, the eminent scientist and academic Richard Dawkins
admitted that he doesn't know the subject but he made his knee jerk
criticisms anyway.
Now at least we know exactly where you are coming from. I think
Michael Rideout, as always, been ever so helpful and gave a very good
lead on how one might approach the subject. Good luck with it.
Afterall, Margaret Mitchell, author of Gone With the Wind, was said to
have astrologically profiled her characters.
Kind regards.
Ray Murphy
In article <9qo2em$nff$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca>,
cla...@freenet.carleton.ca (Claude Latremouille) wrote:
RM: I think I'll memorise this description :-)>
Ray
SeaGtGruff
> seagt...@aol.com (SeaGtGruff) wrote in message
> news:<20011018015623...@mb-mh.aol.com>...
[...]
> > I'll start by saying that you have Gemini on your Midheaven, which is the
> > stereotypical indicator of a professional writer (because the Midheaven or
> > 10th-House cusp indicates your career, and Gemini is associated with
writing
> > and communicating and ideas). You have Neptune in your 3rd House, which
> > suggests a fictional writer (because Neptune is associated with fantasy,
and
> > the 3rd House is associated with writing).
>
> I'm a long way from a professional at the moment, but that's the plan.
Trust me; with Gemini on your Midheaven, and Mercury in your 6th House trine
your Midheaven-- plus Mercury conjunct your Sun, which I didn't mention
before-- you most likely have the ability and desire it takes to become a
professional writer, if you aren't one already. Of course, writing
professionally usually involves a lot of hard work, so it isn't as simple as
just having ability and desire. Still, the Midheaven represents our social and
professional identity, so with Gemini on your Midheaven, it isn't surprising
that you began your first post here with the words "I'm a writer." :-)
By the way, I want to address the rest of the group for a moment with regard to
the Midheaven, or Medium Coeli. The Medium Coeli is usually associated with
the direction "up" (although it could just as easily be to the south or the
north, rather than "up"), and the Imum Coeli is usually associated with the
direction "down." The Imum Coeli represents our roots, family background, and
so on. It seems fitting that the Medium Coeli, on the other hand, is
associated with what we become (or want to become) when we "grow up." It would
be interesting for each of us to look at the sign on our Midheaven and see if
it corresponds to what we wanted to become when we grew up. I'm not sure about
my own case, because I mostly wanted to become an astrologer when I grew up,
and Aries isn't associated with astrology.
Getting back to your chart, Neptune in your 3rd House definitely points to
being a writer of fiction or fantasy, or perhaps a nonfiction writer who
specializes in subjects like psychic phenomena, mysticism, spirituality,
hypnotism, alcohol, drugs, pharmacology, dreams, oceanography, photography,
cinematography, or other Neptunian types of subjects. Neptune in your 3rd
House even suggests that you might be good at writing screenplays or movie
scripts!
[...]
> Why did you choose relationships
> with women as an area to focus on?
The Moon and Venus are both feminine symbols, although they can represent other
things as well. Oppositions tend (in my opinion) to manifest themselves in the
arena of interpersonal relationships. Thus, it's natural to interpret the Moon
opposite Venus in terms of relationships with women. This is true whether the
native (or subject of the chart) is a man or woman. In a woman's chart, the
Moon can represent her role as a mother (if she has children), and Venus can
represent her role as a wife (if she's married), so the Moon opposite Venus
might indicate that she feels pulled in two opposing directions by her role as
a mother versus her role as a wife. In a man's chart, the Moon opposite Venus
might indicate that he feels pulled in two opposing directions by his mother
and his wife, either because he wants to please both of them at the same time
but finds it difficult to do so, or because his mother and his wife seem to be
complete opposites who can't get along easily with each other, and who might
even be competing for his love and attention.
But the Moon opposite Venus could mean other things that don't have anything to
do with women or relationships with women. For example, in a more general
sense it might represent the need to feel appreciated and loved by other
people-- not necessarily in a romantic sense, but in the sense of being
accepted as a person. I don't think the Moon opposite Venus is as difficult to
deal with as the Moon square Venus, because although the opposition can
indicate conflict and competition between two opposing sides or tendencies or
influences, it can also indicate a balance between two opposites, or
cooperation between two sides.
The main reason I interpreted the Moon opposite Venus in terms of difficulties
or problems is because of Neptune being squared by both the Moon and Venus,
turning the opposition into a T-Square. However, the sextile between the Moon
and Mars, and the trine between Venus and Mars, turn the opposition into an
"Easy Opposition." One way to think of this is to imagine the Moon and Venus
(or whatever two planets are in opposition) as two people who are involved in
some kind of one-on-one or face-to-face interaction or relationship, which
could potentially be along the lines of a partnership or cooperative endeavor,
or along the lines of a competition or open conflict. Neptune (or whatever
planet is turning the opposition into a T-Square) is like a third party who is
on poor terms with both of the opposing planets, and who is interfering with
the situation between them, making it more difficult for them to get along well
with each other. On the other hand, Mars (or whatever planet is turning the
opposition into an Easy Opposition) is like a third party who is on good terms
with both of the opposing planets, and who is assisting with the situation
between them, making it easier for them to get along well with each other. At
the very least, Neptune's interference suggests the possibility of
misunderstandings, because Neptune can introduce an element of confusion.
[...]
> I don't know how much time this kind of stuff takes you, but thanks a
> lot for the effort. It's very good of you.
>
> BDC
You're welcome; and I didn't mean to put you on the spot in any way.
By the way, your overall chart pattern falls into what's known as the Seesaw
type, because the planets in your chart form two groupings which are on
opposite sides of the chart, and which are separated from each other by two
large opposing gaps which total at least 180 degrees, with the smaller of these
two gaps measuring 60 degrees or more. The fact that you have several
oppositions in your chart-- the Sun opposite Jupiter, the Moon opposite Venus,
Saturn opposite Uranus, Saturn opposite Pluto, Chiron opposite Uranus, and
Chiron opposite Pluto-- reinforces this Seesaw pattern, because the Seesaw
pattern is like a giant opposition. The Seesaw pattern can suggest someone who
feels pulled in two opposite directions in life, but it also suggests someone
who is particularly gifted at seeing both sides of issues, which can contribute
toward being a good advisor, mediator, or ambassador. For a writer, the Seesaw
pattern might suggest the ability to get inside the minds of his or her
characters, as well as the ability to discuss a subject from two opposing
points of view. It's therefore interesting that you described the characters
in your previous stories in terms of opposites-- "people who use science and
people who use magic, the young, the old, fundamentalists and liberals."
Michael Rideout
Bill Clissold
SeaGtGruff <seagt...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011018191509...@mb-cc.aol.com...
Thanks so much for the cogent reply Michael.
For the life of me I couldn't understand why a square between Neptune and
Pluto wasn't possible when I could clearly visualize that it was!
Well, what's 500 years or so between friends? :)
Bill
SeaGtGruff
> Thanks so much for the cogent reply Michael.
> For the life of me I couldn't understand why a square between Neptune and
> Pluto wasn't possible when I could clearly visualize that it was!
> Well, what's 500 years or so between friends? :)
>
> Bill
The next "opening" or waxing square between Neptune and Pluto will be circa
2063 (give or take a year or two for the effects of retrogradation).
The last "opening" or waxing square between Neptune and Pluto was circa 1571.
(The combined Neptune-Pluto synodic cycle lasts roughly 492 years, which is
approximately two cycles of Pluto and three cycles of Neptune).
I made a mistake when I said "about 500 years in the past," because I was
leaving out the "closing" or waning square. The last "closing" or waning
square between Neptune and Pluto was circa 1817, so someone (fictional or
nonfictional) born almost 200 years ago could have had Neptune square Pluto,
too.
Michael Rideout
je
at this in completely different ways.
>From your question, it appears that you see astrology as some what
simplistic and have no idea of the many facets and many ways that any
individual astrologer might be looking at it.
For example there are lots of astrologers who are just interested of
doing client readings along the lines of this is a good profession or
this is the way to get along with this person, others may
be predicting the stock market for a few very wealthy clients, who could
care less about the prior readers interests and still others may not do
readings at all but look upon astrology to find spiritual or
philosophical truths. Others may just enjoy the research. And so forth
and so on.
There are many things in this world that no one knows how it really
works. A machine you can take apart and see this this wing ding moves
that one when you do X. Astrology is just not that simplistic like
quantum physics is not that simplistic.
For example try to explan why a light is a photon if you expect a photon
and wave if you expect a wave. It just is, no one knows why until you
get into metaphysics.
One may have their pet theories as to why it works, but when you get
right down to it astrologers really only know that a certain part of it
or certain calculation works to a certain statistical significance.
I believe that you might be better off, if you are serious, is to find a
local astrologer that you could explain your character to more and why
you believe that the astrology aspect adds to the depth of your
character or to move the plot along. I thank that would be the only way
that you might be able to write this that would even pass the scrutiny
of even an amature or new student of astrology.
Jean
Maia
I purchased The Chinese Astrology Workbook by Derek Walters just last
week. This book does show how to calculate and interpret Chinese
Horoscopes. I haven't yet attempted to draw up a chart but it does
look like a complex process. For those who haven't seen a Chinese
chart it's the shape of a spiders web.
Maia
Maia
[...]
> By the way, I want to address the rest of the group for a moment with regard to
> the Midheaven, or Medium Coeli. The Medium Coeli is usually associated with
> the direction "up" (although it could just as easily be to the south or the
> north, rather than "up"), and the Imum Coeli is usually associated with the
> direction "down." The Imum Coeli represents our roots, family background, and
> so on. It seems fitting that the Medium Coeli, on the other hand, is
> associated with what we become (or want to become) when we "grow up." It would
> be interesting for each of us to look at the sign on our Midheaven and see if
> it corresponds to what we wanted to become when we grew up. I'm not sure about
> my own case, because I mostly wanted to become an astrologer when I grew up,
> and Aries isn't associated with astrology.
> Michael Rideout
I wanted to stay home and raise children. I have a Leo MC and Sun conj
IC. I have 4 children of my own and also manage to end up with
everyone else's. My name even means "mother".
With Neptune opp. my MC I have been wondering what I should be doing
now that my children are all going to school.
Maia
SeaGtGruff
> I wanted to stay home and raise children. I have a Leo MC and Sun conj
> IC. I have 4 children of my own and also manage to end up with
> everyone else's. My name even means "mother".
I'd say that you definitely fulfilled the "promise" of your natal chart-- at
least in terms of your Midheaven! :-)
> With Neptune opp. my MC I have been wondering what I should be doing
> now that my children are all going to school.
>
> Maia
Obviously, you should now become an entertainer, and invite famous film stars,
psychics, and oceanographers into your home! ;-D
Michael Rideout
SeaGtGruff
> I purchased The Chinese Astrology Workbook by Derek Walters just last
> week. This book does show how to calculate and interpret Chinese
> Horoscopes. I haven't yet attempted to draw up a chart but it does
> look like a complex process. For those who haven't seen a Chinese
> chart it's the shape of a spiders web.
>
> Maia
Is that a new book, or a retitled edition of his "Chinese Astrology" book,
which was published in 1987? If it's a new book, I'll have to look for it,
because his "Chinese Astrology" book is packed full of information, and does
contain instructional material, but it isn't exactly what I'd call a
step-by-step guide to setting up and reading a Chinese horoscope (as the word
"Workbook" suggests).
Michael Rideout
Ray Murphy
In article <20011019213920...@mb-ce.aol.com>,
seagt...@aol.com (SeaGtGruff) wrote:
>Maia (maia...@start.com.au) wrote:
>
>> I wanted to stay home and raise children. I have a Leo MC and Sun conj
>> IC. I have 4 children of my own and also manage to end up with
>> everyone else's. My name even means "mother".
[....]
>>
>> Maia
RM: This is quite interesting. I have found that where people have Sun
con IC that it overwhelms their Sun Sign to a great extent and they
seem like a typical Sun in Cancer person.
>
>Obviously, you should now become an entertainer, and invite famous film
>stars, psychics, and oceanographers into your home! ;-D
>
>Michael Rideout
RM: Whilst I agree wholeheartedly with this interpretation :-)>, I
can't help but wonder what transits Michael has had during the last
week because there is a marked difference in his style of posting. (I
have no idea about his chart so I'm not cheating here).
[Sun in Capricorn is all that I remember].
It sounds like Mercury is aspecting something in a positive way -
perhaps on an interesting Midpoint?
In reality it probably corresponds with reduced work pressure, but
let's look at the astro connections anyway?
Ray
John Roth
"Brendan Carson" <gunc...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:d61d52c1.01101...@posting.google.com...
> Hail,
>
> I'm a writer, and I was wondering about two things:
>
> being in scorpio, for example, that makes someone's personality turn
> out different from someone with Neptune in Leo, for example? Is it
> gravity or something else? A variety of theories is good, I'm not
> after THE truth.
The modern view is to pretty much ignore the question of how
it works, and just stick to figuring out what works and what
doesn't.
As far as gravity goes, any skeptic worth the title will tell you
that the attending nurse has more gravitational influence than any
of the planets, leading to the old joke: "I was born under the
'Oxygen in use' sign".
> 2. I have heard of the 'everyday" astrology (twelve signs of th
> ezodiac and so on) and of the Chinese system, are there any other ones
> about which there is any information? Babylonian, that kind of stuff.
> I am sure that virtually all cultures practiced astrology of some
> kind or another, but are there any details?
Astrology is a very large and diverse subject. About the only
thing that all astrologers will agree on is the influence of the particular
planets: Mars is active, Saturn restricts, Jupiter expands, and so
forth. It usually takes about three years to become competent in
one style of astrology; being able to discuss the similarities and
differences among several of them can take a considerable amount
of time.
There is (or was, I haven't checked lately) a very good article
on the history of astrology at www.robhand.com. Many of the
ancient Greek texts on astrology are being translated (some for
the first time in English) by people who are competent in both
astrology and classical Greek. Many of the results are very
surprising.
> I should point out that I don't "believe in" astrology (it's a free
> country) and I'm not that interested in anyone tryiong to prove to me
> that it works (like you probably are not interested in someone trying
> to prove to you that it doesn't). All I want is an insight into how
> believers in astrology view the world.
Most astrologers are 'spiritually' oriented in some degree or other.
What that means is that we (that is, any given individual) were put here
to have specific experiances, and that the birth chart (and various
extensions of it) determines the general pattern of those experiances.
"Free Will" does not extend to changing this predetermined path.
It can be used to either tackle the planetary lessons head on, with
full conciousness of what they are and full acceptance of the
experiance, or it can be used to resist the lessons. The lifetime,
and the experiance of the lifetime, will be substantially different
in each case.
The universe exists. It does not care what you believe.
John Roth
>
> BDC
>
Brendan Carson
> >From your question, it appears that you see astrology as some what
> simplistic and have no idea of the many facets and many ways that any
> individual astrologer might be looking at it.
You know, I'm starting to worry. The following for the
readers/writers of this thread in general, not Jean in particular:
So far I have been told I have "no idea", I should "do my own
research" rather than asking experts on a newsgroup "if I want to be
taken seriously", I am likely to misrepresent facts, and so on. I
come onto a newsgroup admitting I know bugger-all and asking for help
to learn and this is the tone of reply I get. I have gone over my
posts and as far as I can tell the only thing I have said that anyone
could take offense at is that I don't believe in astrology.
Okay. I don't believe in astrology. It's not a crime. It doesn't
mean I think people who do have "no idea", or that they haven't done
their research, or that they are likely to misrepresent facts or
anything. I haven't launched into a detailed attack on astrology and
I have explicitly stated I don't want to get into any discussions
where someone tries to "prove" anything. Thus I can probably live
without anyone stressing to me that astrology WORKS (in capitals) and
so on, or asking if I "genuinely" want to find out answers to the
questions I have posted (as if I would have any other reason for
asking them). All I was asking for was a small amount of information,
a few pointers in the right direction and so on. By the way, I would
have thought that the fact that my hero (not the villain, not the
class clown) was a believer in astrology would have suggested to some
people that they need not either defend themselves or attack me. If
people can't deal with the fact that I don't believe without getting
upset, they shouldn't bother replying to my post. It's that simple.
I meet many people who do not believe many of the things I believe
every day. Rather than seeing this as an opportunity to spread my
particular brand of the Gospel, I try to assume that they are people
pretty much like me at the core. When people ask a particular
question, they are probably after a response to that particualr
question. When people say they don't want to get into an interminable
and fruitless argument, I respect their wishes. When people state
that they know little but wish to know more, I don't start my
conversation saying that their understanding is "simplistic" and they
generally have "no idea."
Not everyone believes what you (plural) believe, and not all those
people who disagree with you are ignorant. You (plural) can't
extrapolate from whether or not someone believes in astrology to
whether they are lazy ("don't do their own research"), ignorant (as if
I've at any point pretended to know anything but the simplest facts
about astrology) or deceitful (likely to "misuse" any information I am
given). If you want to prove to people that astrology works, I am
sure there are lots of people, presumably in skeptic newsgroups, who
are much more willing to hear from you than I am. What I want is to
see how "people who believe something different to me" think. You
might try it yourself.
>
> For example there are lots of astrologers who are just interested of
> doing client readings along the lines of this is a good profession or
> this is the way to get along with this person, others may
> be predicting the stock market for a few very wealthy clients, who could
> care less about the prior readers interests and still others may not do
> readings at all but look upon astrology to find spiritual or
> philosophical truths. Others may just enjoy the research. And so forth
> and so on.
I am sure this is true. It's got nothing to do with my question, but
it's doubtless true.
>
> There are many things in this world that no one knows how it really
> works. A machine you can take apart and see this this wing ding moves
> that one when you do X. Astrology is just not that simplistic like
> quantum physics is not that simplistic.
> For example try to explan why a light is a photon if you expect a photon
> and wave if you expect a wave.
See, this is the kind of thing I am talking about. I asked for an
explanation how you believe astrology works, now I am getting what
appears to be something about quantum physics along the line of
"nobody understands how quantum physics works but it still works" (not
actually true, by the way: lots of people understand a lot of it).
As an answer to your question, I can't explain the wave-particle
duality thing because I'm not a quantum physicist. If I wanted an
explanation, I'd go to a quantum physicist. I want an explanation
about how people believe astrology works, I'm asking people who
believe it works.
It just is, no one knows why until you
> get into metaphysics.
Okay. Imagine the following scenario: Someone asks my hero how he
believes astrology works. He's a scientifically literate man, working
in a science ralated job, in a technologically advanced culture.
What does he say?
If the answer involves metaphysics, what kind of "metaphysical thing"
does he say? Is it something to do with the "as above, so below"
idea, the microcosm-macrocosm thing? Can he say anything more than
"it just does"?
If the best he can answer is "it just does" then so be it, but I want
to know if anyone else answers anything else when and if someone asks
them how astrology works.
If anyone is tempted to answer this, bear in mind that asking someone
how they think something works is different to asking someone to prove
that something works. "Proof" has to do with statistics and so forth.
"How things work" has to do with physics or metaphysics or magic or
what ever. The two questions are not the same. I am sure that many
of you have sincere and valid "reasons for believing it works"
(proofs), and I'm not challenging those. What I want is anyone's
private (or otherwise) theories as to how it works. If any of you
have ever lain on your back and looked at the stars or sat alone at
night and said "Okay, I know it works, but HOW?", then I would like to
hear any musings, theories, whatever.
And thanks a lot to those who have actually read my posts and replied
to the questions I have asked.
BDC
Christine
Brendan Carson <gunc...@optusnet.com.au> schreef in berichtnieuws
d61d52c1.0110...@posting.google.com...
> lib...@webtv.net (je) wrote in message
news:<18452-3B...@storefull-237.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
>
> > >From your question, it appears that you see astrology as some what
> > simplistic and have no idea of the many facets and many ways that any
> > individual astrologer might be looking at it.
>
> You know, I'm starting to worry. The following for the
> readers/writers of this thread in general, not Jean in particular:
> BDC
Hi Brendan,
Take heart!
Last year, Ray proposed that with everyone's astrological knowledge, it must
be possible to produce an astro. novel on AAM. Via Google Search you might
be able to find what the geniuses of their art produced....a laugh, if
nothing else :-)).
Anyone remember the name of the thread for Brendan ?
Christine.
SeaGtGruff
[...]
> RM: Whilst I agree wholeheartedly with this interpretation :-)>, I
> can't help but wonder what transits Michael has had during the last
> week because there is a marked difference in his style of posting.
I'm not sure what you mean by "a marked difference." I joke around a lot in
"real life," and I've joked around in my posts before, although I guess I
usually try to be serious when I'm writing. :-)
> (I
> have no idea about his chart so I'm not cheating here).
> [Sun in Capricorn is all that I remember].
I guess you haven't kept up with the "Primary Directions" thread. :-) I've
posted my birth data in alt.astrology and alt.astrology.moderated before, but
not lately. Nevertheless, François Carrière recently posted my birth data in
the "Primary Directions" thread. The data are January 2, 1959, 5:43 p.m. EST
(source: hospital baby picture and hospital birth records), Aiken, South
Carolina. The generic coordinates for Aiken are 81W43, 33N34. The hospital
where I was born-- which was eventually replaced by a newer hospital in a
different location of town-- was at 81:43:48W, 33:33:54N. According to the
USGS geological survey map for Aiken, the hospital was about 530 feet above sea
level (in case you want to do a topocentric chart for me).
> It sounds like Mercury is aspecting something in a positive way -
> perhaps on an interesting Midpoint?
Back in mid-September, Mercury sextiled my Uranus, conjoined my Mercury/Uranus
midpoint, conjoined my North Lunar Node and Moon (which are almost exactly
conjunct), sextiled my Mercury, and trined my Chiron. It just retrograded back
through the same arc and repeated those aspects in reverse order.
> In reality it probably corresponds with reduced work pressure,
I wish! My job has actually become more pressured and stressful than ever.
Every day I keep expecting my bosses to fire me, because they've become
extremely displeased with me, and nothing I do or say to try to put things
aright seems to help. I've become very depressed lately.
> but
> let's look at the astro connections anyway?
Saturn is transiting my 12th House right now, and Pluto has been dancing around
my 6th-House cusp for the last couple of years. The current Saturn-Pluto
oppositions are essentially equal to my 6th-12th cuspal axis. But ever since
Pluto entered Sagittarius and trined my Midheaven, my employment situation has
been crazy and stressful.
I left my previous job on October 5, 1995; was unemployed for a while; began
working part-time for my previous employer in late 1995; went back to a
full-time position with them on March 1, 1996; left them again on May 21, 1998;
was unemployed for a much longer period; did some occasional work for my
previous employer during that time; and then got a job with my current employer
on April 1, 1999.
I could have gotten a job with my current employer much sooner-- as early as
1998 or 1996. My current employer had interviewed me back in late 1996 and
wanted to hire me on the spot, but a former coworker was employed there and
kept telling me how awful it was. I didn't approach them for a second
interview in 1999 until I was so desparate for work that I didn't care about
all of her horror stories.
I found that I actually enjoy working there, despite the verbal and mental
abuse that goes on. At first my efforts there were appreciated, but for the
last several months things have steadily deteriorated for me. I'd like to put
things aright if I can, but I don't know how.
My coworker, on the other hand, says she can't take it anymore, and has put her
resume out at several places. Even the young man who is practically the
adopted son of the husband-and-wife owners/bosses says he is burned out. He
has a standing job offer from one of his friends, and knows he can earn a *lot*
more money somewhere else. (It's a small company, and I earn about $10,000 a
year below the average *starting* salary in my career field. I presume that he
earns even less than I do.) If I get fired or leave, and if my coworker
leaves, and if the young man leaves, the company will be in very bad straits,
and might not survive. I don't want that to happen, because I really do care
about the company and its clients. Sure, I'd love to earn more money and work
someplace where I'm appreciated and there's no verbal and mental abuse. But I
hate working on my resume, I hate going on job interviews, I hate being out of
work, and I've never been obsessed with earning as much as possible, anyway. I
actually think it's a sin that so many people work their fingers to the bone
for minimum wage, while other people have "cushy" jobs that pay obscene amounts
of money.
I'm about at my wit's end right now, and my astrological hobby is my only real
solace. So if I'm joking around more than usual, it's probably because I'm
cracking up! :-)
Michael Rideout
Ed Falis
> What I want is anyone's
> private (or otherwise) theories as to how it works. If any of you
> have ever lain on your back and looked at the stars or sat alone at
> night and said "Okay, I know it works, but HOW?", then I would like to
> hear any musings, theories, whatever.
Gary Phillipsen wrote a book (for laymen and astrologers) called
"Astrology in the Year Zero" a couple of years ago. It's mainly a set
of interviews with astrologers about these kinds of issues, and is an
easy and relatively quick read (with lots of food for thought). I think
you would get a pretty good sense for the range of answers to your
questions that are commonly held.
One of the distinctions that gets made in the book (and which is used to
"frame" the material) is that between "natural" and "judicial"
astrology. The former is based on attributing astrological effect to
physical forces, while the latter is more like divination. Most
opinions about how astrology works will favor one pole or the other, but
will also usually contain some elements from the other. In practice,
most modern astrologers practice judicial astrology, even when
explaining it in terms of natural astrology.
My own opinion, which is certainly a minority position, is that
astrology is most like mathematics. It's a formalism that codifies
analogical thinking (as mathematics does for rational thinking). As
such, it "transcends" its applications, having its own set of symbols
and rules that can be manipulated independent of what it's applied to,
or how it explains certain natural phenomena such as apparent cyclic
effects.
Considered this way, astrological models of phenomena are created,
manipulated and interpreted just as mathematical models are. It's just
that the astrological modelling system is centuries behind the
mathematical one. But because its subject matter is intuitive or
analogical reasoning, it gives access to a perspective on phenomena
(including how we interact with the world) that is not so available with
other disciplines.
Any model is an abstraction that shows some aspects of reality while
hiding others. The construction of a model, whether mathematical or
astrological, is based on pragmatic concerns of what we wish to
accomplish by applying its point of view. But any modelling system is a
formalism with its own rules that apply independent of application, and
which reflect in some manner our ways of thinking about the world and
the world's own innate order.
- Ed
Keera A. Fox
Before I answer you, have you read the anthology "Death by Horoscope"?
I've lent the book so can't give you more details. I believe one of the
contributors and editor is Anne Perry. It's a collection of short
stories where the common theme is murder and astrology. Anyway, I read
it and it's damned hard to weave astrology into anything and make it
sound good to someone who knows astrology while also making it sound
understandable to someone who doesn't. IMO. You have a challenge, there.
> Okay. Imagine the following scenario: Someone asks my hero how he
> believes astrology works. He's a scientifically literate man, working in
> a science ralated job, in a technologically advanced culture.
>
> What does he say?
"I don't know," he said. "There are no laws of physics that can show a
connection. It's probably all apophenia, but I enjoy the seeming
correlation."
> If the answer involves metaphysics, what kind of "metaphysical thing"
> does he say? Is it something to do with the "as above, so below"
> idea, the microcosm-macrocosm thing? Can he say anything more than
> "it just does"?
"It's odd. How the physical descriptions of the actual planets harmonize
with their astrological ones," he mused. "Jupiter is a huge gas giant,
so large it tugs at our Sun. In astrology, Jupiter rules all expansion.
I see yet another example of 'as above so below' in this."
Or: "Astrology is a tool using features of our solar system as symbols.
We're not talking actual planets here, just what they represent in terms
of human qualities and events. I see is as another example of 'as above
so below'."
> If the best he can answer is "it just does" then so be it, but I want
> to know if anyone else answers anything else when and if someone asks
> them how astrology works.
Truth is, nobody knows how/why astrology works. Skeptics will give you
the first answer; many astrologers the second/third. I watched a program
on what Voyager found when it was sent out back in the 70's and knowing
astrology as well as I do, I am amazed at the parallells between actual
physical make-up and behavior and the astrological meanings of the
planets. But that could just be apophenia...
--
****** Keera in Norway ******
* Think big. Shrink to fit. *
http://home.online.no/~kafox
Ray Murphy
----------
In article <d61d52c1.0110...@posting.google.com>,
gunc...@optusnet.com.au (Brendan Carson) wrote:
>lib...@webtv.net (je) wrote in message
>news:<18452-3B...@storefull-237.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
>
>> >From your question, it appears that you see astrology as some what
>> simplistic and have no idea of the many facets and many ways that any
>> individual astrologer might be looking at it.
>
>You know, I'm starting to worry. The following for the
>readers/writers of this thread in general, not Jean in particular:
>
>So far I have been told I have "no idea", I should "do my own
>research" rather than asking experts on a newsgroup "if I want to be
>taken seriously", I am likely to misrepresent facts, and so on. I
>come onto a newsgroup admitting I know bugger-all and asking for help
>to learn and this is the tone of reply I get. I have gone over my
>posts and as far as I can tell the only thing I have said that anyone
>could take offense at is that I don't believe in astrology.
RM: Obviously we don't all have corresponding views, so we would not
all be suggesting that you do your own research, or that you may
misrepresent the facts.
I'm beginning to think that some of the difficulty for you and us is
that you appear to be still asking the same question, when you have
already been given the answer: "We *don't know* how astrology works".
I had the impression earlier that you didn't know how to ask the
questions because you are unfamiliar with astrology (just like I was
when I tried to ask questions about computers when I started).
Now I can appreciate the idea of you getting the essential information
from experts or experienced astrologers, but if you are going to do
that it will require *interaction* with people and this normally
requires a genuine interest. This looks a bit hard to achieve if you
really don't have that interest.
I noticed that your writing style is very good (unlike my own) but for
some strange reason it seems to conceal what sort of things you want
to learn from the group, so perhaps we can make some better progress
if you ask short questions or paraphrase what you have said already.
[.......]
>BDC
Ray Murphy
Ray Murphy
<SNIP>
>If you genuinely want to find out how Astrology works, there are many
>good writers you can read up on but I am reading a book by Dennis
>Elwell titled 'Cosmic Loom', a very good book and it gives a very
>intellectual account of how Astrology WORKS and I recommend this
>highly. This book has been revised and reprinted by the Urania Trust
>in the UK recently. Hope you will get this book and read it before
>you go any further.
RM: I'm not sure what you mean here. No one knows how astrology works.
Is that book one writer's speculation about how astrology works, or
could I be missing the point somehow?
Ray
John Roth
>
> You know, I'm starting to worry. The following for the
> readers/writers of this thread in general, not Jean in particular:
>
>
> believes astrology works. He's a scientifically literate man, working
> in a science ralated job, in a technologically advanced culture.
>
> What does he say?
If I was writing the story, I'd probably have him say something
along these lines:
"It's the framework on which the Powers That Be (choose your
own phrase here) hang the life plan you were given before you
were born. It works because of an agreement: there is no physics
involved."
> If the best he can answer is "it just does" then so be it, but I want
> to know if anyone else answers anything else when and if someone asks
> them how astrology works.
That's my own answer. I've used similar answers in my own
writing (under a pseudonym, btw).
> BDC
John Roth
Eminnith
> You know, I'm starting to worry.
<snipped>
> All I was asking for was a small amount of information,
> a few pointers in the right direction and so on. By the way, I would
> have thought that the fact that my hero (not the villain, not the
> class clown) was a believer in astrology would have suggested to some
> people that they need not either defend themselves or attack me.
Many people tend to respond to the first post with content they wish
to discuss, rather than first reading what else has been written in
the thread. With that in mind, it seems to me that expecting people
to know your astrologer character is the hero--when your first post
did not even make clear that you were writing fiction--is a wee bit
unrealistic. After all, this is a group devoted to astrology, not
mind-reading. <g>
I may have no good answer to your question, as I'm somewhat skeptical
of astrology myself. Jung's ideas of synchronicity might be good for
you to read up on so that your character could have a modern sort of
explanation for his ideas (though synchronicity is yet another thing
of which I am skeptical). Still, I find the study of astrology
fascinating: It appeals to my love of mythology, my love of nature,
my love of psychology, and my love of geometry. Perhaps those could
be reasons for your character to be drawn to astrology as well. If he
tends to believe that everything in life is connected, whether his
belief is a scientific/materialistic belief (we're all sprung from the
same Big Bang), or a more religious/supernatural one (we're all
descendants of/creations of the same spirit)--then he might be the
sort who would think of the whole universe as a hologram. That is to
say, he might think that the arrangements of the stars and planets in
the heavens would reveal information about a person or situation
because each part of the universe contains all the information
contained in the universe as a whole, and thus all the information
necessary to recreate the whole or to study the whole.
Em
John Roth
"Keera A. Fox" <thinkbigs...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1f1mx60.1l64mtbf3c01rN%thinkbigs...@yahoo.com...
> Brendan Carson <gunc...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>
> Before I answer you, have you read the anthology "Death by Horoscope"?
> I've lent the book so can't give you more details. I believe one of the
> contributors and editor is Anne Perry. It's a collection of short
> stories where the common theme is murder and astrology. Anyway, I read
> it and it's damned hard to weave astrology into anything and make it
> sound good to someone who knows astrology while also making it sound
> understandable to someone who doesn't. IMO. You have a challenge, there.
As a writer, he definitely has my sympathy. I find it easier
to project a world-view that includes astrology, rather than
try to fit astrology into the current technical/reductionistic world-view.
The sceptics have a point - it simply doesn't fit, and if it works,
then their world view is, at best, incomplete, and at worst,
flat-out wrong. That's a very unsettling view to contemplate for
anyone with a need for certainty.
John Roth
Keera A. Fox
> "Brendan Carson" <gunc...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
> news:d61d52c1.0110...@posting.google.com...
> >
> > You know, I'm starting to worry. The following for the
> > readers/writers of this thread in general, not Jean in particular:
> >
> >
> > Okay. Imagine the following scenario: Someone asks my hero how he
> > believes astrology works. He's a scientifically literate man, working
> > in a science ralated job, in a technologically advanced culture.
> >
> > What does he say?
>
> If I was writing the story, I'd probably have him say something
> along these lines:
>
> "It's the framework on which the Powers That Be (choose your
> own phrase here) hang the life plan you were given before you
> were born. It works because of an agreement: there is no physics
> involved."
Cool! I like this one! Can I keep it?
Keera A. Fox
> "Keera A. Fox" <thinkbigs...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1f1mx60.1l64mtbf3c01rN%thinkbigs...@yahoo.com...
> > Brendan Carson <gunc...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
> >
> > Before I answer you, have you read the anthology "Death by Horoscope"?
> > I've lent the book so can't give you more details. I believe one of the
> > contributors and editor is Anne Perry. It's a collection of short
> > stories where the common theme is murder and astrology. Anyway, I read
> > it and it's damned hard to weave astrology into anything and make it
> > sound good to someone who knows astrology while also making it sound
> > understandable to someone who doesn't. IMO. You have a challenge, there.
>
> As a writer, he definitely has my sympathy. I find it easier
> to project a world-view that includes astrology, rather than
> try to fit astrology into the current technical/reductionistic world-view.
Thinking of the stories I read in the anthology, I agree with you. The
way even astrologers use astrology, and the weaknesses and quirks of the
art, make it difficult to fit it into something concrete without going
into all the possibilities of the transits.
> The sceptics have a point - it simply doesn't fit, and if it works,
> then their world view is, at best, incomplete, and at worst,
> flat-out wrong. That's a very unsettling view to contemplate for
> anyone with a need for certainty.
I was wondering if I should post on sci.skeptic and ask what skeptics
make of reality, having just re-read Richard Bach's "Illusions" - again.
:-)
John Roth
Of course.
John Roth
Brendan Carson
>
> I'm beginning to think that some of the difficulty for you and us is
> that you appear to be still asking the same question, when you have
> already been given the answer: "We *don't know* how astrology works".
I'm not sure there is that much of a difficulty between me and you
(plural), I've actually got quite a few good replies. Thanks to those
who've posted them, too. Like I posted (eventually), I was mainly
either after anyone's theories or even their speculations. I am
certain there is no cast-iron official theory of how astrology works.
But I wondered if any of you thought about possible "mechanisms"
involving gravity, or some other kind of stuff.
> I had the impression earlier that you didn't know how to ask the
> questions because you are unfamiliar with astrology (just like I was
> when I tried to ask questions about computers when I started).
>
> Now I can appreciate the idea of you getting the essential information
> from experts or experienced astrologers, but if you are going to do
> that it will require *interaction* with people and this normally
> requires a genuine interest.
I'm here to interact. I do actually have quite an interest, but I'd
fall short of calling it a belief. To me a belief is something you
trust: I believe the airplane will not crash, so I buy a ticket, I
believe the light switch will complete the circuit and turn on the
light, so I press it. That's not to say anything is certain, planes
crash, lights burn out, but generally theres an assumption there that
I use.
With astrology, and with things like the I Ching (with which I've had
a little bit more experience), and tarot, I'd stop short of calling my
ideas belief. I find the ideas fascinating. I have seen some stuff
that strongly suggests that there is more at work than the classical
Newtonian stuff says there should be. I am always a little awed at
what a good astrologer or tarot card reader can do, or what the I
Ching seems to do almost by itself. And I've got some kind of idea
that involves archetypes and the Heisenberg uncertainty principle and
so on, astrology etc. telling you things that "you" already know to be
true. However, if I open the paper and the horoscope says "Don't
travel today", I am not going to cancel my ticket. I don't trust the
information. A lot of times people believe what they want to believe.
A lot of times people believe things that are exciting or convenient
or intuitively appealing but aren't actually true. I tend to try to
be wary with my beliefs, possibly because I have a natural tendency in
precisely the opposite direction.
SO I can't call what I feel/think/whatever about astrology "belief".
Not because of the incomprehensibility side of it (I believe in a lot
of incomprehensible things), but more because there is a vast amount
of poor quality astrological information out there and I am unsure if
my "belief" would be nothing more than me fooling myself. To me proof
is a matter of statistics and logic. If I get one hundred "bits" of
astrological information and only ten are right, maybe it's because
only ten out of a hundred astrologers are competent/gifted/whatever,
but maybe it's also luck. As you can see, proof is a concept that
doesn't translate to the emotional, self-discovery side of things.
As should be obvious from this, I place a lot more credence in the
astrology that tells you something about yourself than the astrology
that tells you what is going to happen. In the end, the two kinds of
information can't be separated, but I find my own interests probably
lie more in the whole individuation process kind of thing than the
"meet a tall dark stranger" kind of stuff. In the end who you are
determines, if not what happens to you, at least what you perceive
happening to you, so it makes sense to me to stick with the analytical
rather than the predictive, because the predictive would seem to rely
pretty heavily upon the 'what kind of person are you" side of things.
> I noticed that your writing style is very good (unlike my own) but for
> some strange reason it seems to conceal what sort of things you want
> to learn from the group, so perhaps we can make some better progress
> if you ask short questions or paraphrase what you have said already.
>
>
I posted the short questions side of it before, and in the meantime
I've been reading and thinking and probably come up with some kind of
half-way credible explanation myself. Not saying that you can throw
together words like archetype and Heisenberg and come up with a
theory, but I think I'm halfway to working out what at least I reckon.
BDC
Brendan Carson
>Lots of first class stuff<
Thanks a lot. Mission accomplished.
BDC
Ray Murphy
----------
In article <d61d52c1.01102...@posting.google.com>,
gunc...@optusnet.com.au (Brendan Carson) wrote:
>"Ray Murphy" <ray...@box.net.au> wrote in message
>news:<3bd2f...@news.chariot.net.au>...
>>
>> I'm beginning to think that some of the difficulty for you and us is
>> that you appear to be still asking the same question, when you have
>> already been given the answer: "We *don't know* how astrology works".
>
>I'm not sure there is that much of a difficulty between me and you
>(plural), I've actually got quite a few good replies. Thanks to those
>who've posted them, too. Like I posted (eventually), I was mainly
>either after anyone's theories or even their speculations. I am
>certain there is no cast-iron official theory of how astrology works.
>But I wondered if any of you thought about possible "mechanisms"
>involving gravity, or some other kind of stuff.
RM: Well you probably heard the idea about invisible "rays" moving
through the ether.
>
>> I had the impression earlier that you didn't know how to ask the
>> questions because you are unfamiliar with astrology (just like I was
>> when I tried to ask questions about computers when I started).
>>
>> Now I can appreciate the idea of you getting the essential information
>> from experts or experienced astrologers, but if you are going to do
>> that it will require *interaction* with people and this normally
>> requires a genuine interest.
>
>I'm here to interact. I do actually have quite an interest, but I'd
>fall short of calling it a belief. To me a belief is something you
>trust: I believe the airplane will not crash, so I buy a ticket, I
>believe the light switch will complete the circuit and turn on the
>light, so I press it. That's not to say anything is certain, planes
>crash, lights burn out, but generally theres an assumption there that
>I use.
RM: Hell no one should "believe" in astrology. It's not a belief
system. We don't get angry when someone disagrees with us, like people
do with religions or science etc. Most of us look at the claims made
by astrology and gradually test them as we go along.
>
>With astrology, and with things like the I Ching (with which I've had
>a little bit more experience), and tarot, I'd stop short of calling my
>ideas belief. I find the ideas fascinating. I have seen some stuff
>that strongly suggests that there is more at work than the classical
>Newtonian stuff says there should be. I am always a little awed at
>what a good astrologer or tarot card reader can do, or what the I
>Ching seems to do almost by itself. And I've got some kind of idea
>that involves archetypes and the Heisenberg uncertainty principle and
>so on, astrology etc. telling you things that "you" already know to be
>true.
>However, if I open the paper and the horoscope says "Don't
>travel today", I am not going to cancel my ticket. I don't trust the
>information.
RM: Astrologers don't trust that information either. Most of us
discourage it.
>A lot of times people believe what they want to believe.
> A lot of times people believe things that are exciting or convenient
>or intuitively appealing but aren't actually true. I tend to try to
>be wary with my beliefs, possibly because I have a natural tendency in
>precisely the opposite direction.
RM: As I mentioned above, we're not talking about belief. Certainly a
fair amount of mental processing astrological information involves
using one's imagination and "making things fit" but if for example I
said to someone that they "have Uranus approaching the top of their
horoscope in January, June and November and ONE of the manifestations
of that transit is a big upheaval in their career" - then that's
pretty straightforward. It either works or it doesn't. The listener or
client may say that it didn't work or that they were going to resign
from their job anyway and it was no big deal.
Each person judges astrology like that from the results.
OK, you might have a "hit" the first time and then a "miss" on the
second, and it's up to the astrologer or the listener to decide
(progressively) how good astrology, or the astrologer actually is.
>
>SO I can't call what I feel/think/whatever about astrology "belief".
>Not because of the incomprehensibility side of it (I believe in a lot
>of incomprehensible things), but more because there is a vast amount
>of poor quality astrological information out there and I am unsure if
>my "belief" would be nothing more than me fooling myself. To me proof
>is a matter of statistics and logic. If I get one hundred "bits" of
>astrological information and only ten are right, maybe it's because
>only ten out of a hundred astrologers are competent/gifted/whatever,
>but maybe it's also luck. As you can see, proof is a concept that
>doesn't translate to the emotional, self-discovery side of things.
RM: The more an astrologer says (as a rule) the more ambiguity you
get, unless all the extra words are being used to clarify very
specific comments.
If you had to describe in 20 words each, yourself and a good friend,
you would have *very* different descriptions most of the time, so if
an astrological reading is not doing that, then it's not much good.
>
>As should be obvious from this, I place a lot more credence in the
>astrology that tells you something about yourself than the astrology
>that tells you what is going to happen.
RM: I'm the opposite. I think it's FAR easier to see the value in
predictive astrology by looking at transits, rather than by looking at
the natal chart.
An example: When I was fairly new to astrology I met a salesman who
visited my place of work and I agreed to do a bit of astrology for
him. Several days later he called back and I pulled out my notes.
I said "Oh I noticed that you have Uranus exactly on your Ascendant"
He said "What does that mean?"
I told him the general meaning of it and mentioned a tendency to "do
his own thing" and basically go around alarming people because of his
unwillingness to conform.
He agreed and gave several examples.
I then said "Look I've got some dates here that could connect with
your career, or possibly your parents, but you may not recall what
happened"
He said "OK, give it a whirl"
I said xx.xx.19xx?
He said I joined the [military service]
Next date xx.xx.19xx
No, can't remember
Next date xx.xx,19xx
He said "Yes, that's when [a big court case] was held" [into a
military disaster] I told the judge I was not going to comment about
my superior officer's competence several times, but eventually they
forced me to.
Next date xx.xx.19.xx
He said "That when I left the .... [military service] but I wanted to
go earlier but had to wait for HRH Queen Elizabeth to approve because
that is necessary for commissioned officers.
------
So you see belief was not part of the equation there.
I was only talking about "something" in his career (or concerning his
parents).
The big advantage about using past dates (for people with good
memories) is that astrology can be tested quickly to some extent.
>In the end, the two kinds of
>information can't be separated,
[natal charts + transits]
RM: I disagree entirely. Any of us can give people information about
transits without reading their natal chart to them or even referring
to it. I've done it countless times straight from the ephemeris -
without ever erecting a horoscope. I've done it on buses and trains
and even while driving a car (after stopping to get my ephemeris).
Most astrologers would have done things like that.
>but I find my own interests probably
>lie more in the whole individuation process kind of thing than the
>"meet a tall dark stranger" kind of stuff.
RM: Most astrologers are not that specific, but occasionally the
guesswork can be remarkably accurate.
>In the end who you are
>determines, if not what happens to you, at least what you perceive
>happening to you, so it makes sense to me to stick with the analytical
>rather than the predictive, because the predictive would seem to rely
>pretty heavily upon the 'what kind of person are you" side of things.
RM: "Your character is your destiny" certainly. Who we are just
*modifies* our reactions to transits.
>
>> I noticed that your writing style is very good (unlike my own) but for
>> some strange reason it seems to conceal what sort of things you want
>> to learn from the group, so perhaps we can make some better progress
>> if you ask short questions or paraphrase what you have said already.
>>
>>
>I posted the short questions side of it before, and in the meantime
>I've been reading and thinking and probably come up with some kind of
>half-way credible explanation myself. Not saying that you can throw
>together words like archetype and Heisenberg and come up with a
>theory, but I think I'm halfway to working out what at least I reckon.
>
>BDC
RM: I think I see now why a few of us were confused by your request.
We had imagined that you wanted to know about the ins and outs of
everyday astrology, but it seems your focus is more on (as you said)
"How astrology works". It seemed impossible to have a story with a
hero who was an astrologer, who didn't mention the way he operated.
Ray
Maia
I'd very much prefer to back up Gauquelin's findings: Jupiter in 10th
- not an actor or a sports champion !
Maia
Maia
It's an out of print 1988 edition which I found second hand. On the
last page is an ad for his other book "Chinese Astrology" so I assume
they are quite different books.
Maia
Maia
> ----------
> In article <20011019213920...@mb-ce.aol.com>,
> seagt...@aol.com (SeaGtGruff) wrote:
>
>
> >Maia (maia...@start.com.au) wrote:
> >
> >> I wanted to stay home and raise children. I have a Leo MC and Sun conj
> >> IC. I have 4 children of my own and also manage to end up with
> >> everyone else's. My name even means "mother".
> [....]
> >>
> >> Maia
>
> RM: This is quite interesting. I have found that where people have Sun
> con IC that it overwhelms their Sun Sign to a great extent and they
> seem like a typical Sun in Cancer person.
That might explain why the builder's mistook the kitchen pantry for
another bedroom, why I have an entire cupboard full of drawings, old
school books, baby clothes, locks of hair etc and why I am currently
sitting in a room full of obsolete computers and computer parts. Hey,
they might come in handy some day! :)
Maia
Michael E. Richardson
the four angles in either Dell Horoscope or American Astrology Magazine in
1981 April issue! I am having a senior moment on that detail!
He relates the Asc, Dsc, IC, MC as the answers to what, where, how, and why
of our births. I'll do the homework to get a more complete answer for the
newsgroup.
Michael E Richardson
"SeaGtGruff" <seagt...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011019010129...@mb-fx.aol.com...
> Brendan Carson (gunc...@optusnet.com.au) wrote:
>
> > seagt...@aol.com (SeaGtGruff) wrote in message
> > news:<20011018015623...@mb-mh.aol.com>...
> [...]
> > > I'll start by saying that you have Gemini on your Midheaven, which is
the
> > > stereotypical indicator of a professional writer (because the
Midheaven or
> > > 10th-House cusp indicates your career, and Gemini is associated with
> writing
> > > and communicating and ideas). You have Neptune in your 3rd House,
which
> > > suggests a fictional writer (because Neptune is associated with
fantasy,
> and
> > > the 3rd House is associated with writing).
> >
> > I'm a long way from a professional at the moment, but that's the plan.
>
> Trust me; with Gemini on your Midheaven, and Mercury in your 6th House
trine
> your Midheaven-- plus Mercury conjunct your Sun, which I didn't mention
> before-- you most likely have the ability and desire it takes to become a
> professional writer, if you aren't one already. Of course, writing
> professionally usually involves a lot of hard work, so it isn't as simple
as
> just having ability and desire. Still, the Midheaven represents our
social and
> professional identity, so with Gemini on your Midheaven, it isn't
surprising
> that you began your first post here with the words "I'm a writer." :-)
>
> By the way, I want to address the rest of the group for a moment with
regard to
> the Midheaven, or Medium Coeli. The Medium Coeli is usually associated
with
> the direction "up" (although it could just as easily be to the south or
the
> north, rather than "up"), and the Imum Coeli is usually associated with
the
> direction "down." The Imum Coeli represents our roots, family background,
and
> so on. It seems fitting that the Medium Coeli, on the other hand, is
> associated with what we become (or want to become) when we "grow up." It
would
> be interesting for each of us to look at the sign on our Midheaven and see
if
> it corresponds to what we wanted to become when we grew up. I'm not sure
about
> my own case, because I mostly wanted to become an astrologer when I grew
up,
> and Aries isn't associated with astrology.
>
> Getting back to your chart, Neptune in your 3rd House definitely points to
> being a writer of fiction or fantasy, or perhaps a nonfiction writer who
> specializes in subjects like psychic phenomena, mysticism, spirituality,
> hypnotism, alcohol, drugs, pharmacology, dreams, oceanography,
photography,
> cinematography, or other Neptunian types of subjects. Neptune in your 3rd
> House even suggests that you might be good at writing screenplays or movie
> scripts!
>
> [...]
> > Why did you choose relationships
> > with women as an area to focus on?
>
> The Moon and Venus are both feminine symbols, although they can represent
other
> things as well. Oppositions tend (in my opinion) to manifest themselves
in the
> arena of interpersonal relationships. Thus, it's natural to interpret the
Moon
> opposite Venus in terms of relationships with women. This is true whether
the
> native (or subject of the chart) is a man or woman. In a woman's chart,
the
> Moon can represent her role as a mother (if she has children), and Venus
can
> represent her role as a wife (if she's married), so the Moon opposite
Venus
> might indicate that she feels pulled in two opposing directions by her
role as
> a mother versus her role as a wife. In a man's chart, the Moon opposite
Venus
> might indicate that he feels pulled in two opposing directions by his moth
er
> and his wife, either because he wants to please both of them at the same
time
> but finds it difficult to do so, or because his mother and his wife seem
to be
> complete opposites who can't get along easily with each other, and who
might
> even be competing for his love and attention.
>
> But the Moon opposite Venus could mean other things that don't have
anything to
> do with women or relationships with women. For example, in a more general
> sense it might represent the need to feel appreciated and loved by other
> people-- not necessarily in a romantic sense, but in the sense of being
> accepted as a person. I don't think the Moon opposite Venus is as
difficult to
> deal with as the Moon square Venus, because although the opposition can
> indicate conflict and competition between two opposing sides or tendencies
or
> influences, it can also indicate a balance between two opposites, or
> cooperation between two sides.
>
> The main reason I interpreted the Moon opposite Venus in terms of
difficulties
> or problems is because of Neptune being squared by both the Moon and
Venus,
> turning the opposition into a T-Square. However, the sextile between the
Moon
> and Mars, and the trine between Venus and Mars, turn the opposition into
an
> "Easy Opposition." One way to think of this is to imagine the Moon and
Venus
> (or whatever two planets are in opposition) as two people who are involved
in
> some kind of one-on-one or face-to-face interaction or relationship, which
> could potentially be along the lines of a partnership or cooperative
endeavor,
> or along the lines of a competition or open conflict. Neptune (or
whatever
> planet is turning the opposition into a T-Square) is like a third party
who is
> on poor terms with both of the opposing planets, and who is interfering
with
> the situation between them, making it more difficult for them to get along
well
> with each other. On the other hand, Mars (or whatever planet is turning
the
> opposition into an Easy Opposition) is like a third party who is on good
terms
> with both of the opposing planets, and who is assisting with the situation
> between them, making it easier for them to get along well with each other.
At
> the very least, Neptune's interference suggests the possibility of
> misunderstandings, because Neptune can introduce an element of confusion.
>
> [...]
> > I don't know how much time this kind of stuff takes you, but thanks a
> > lot for the effort. It's very good of you.
> >
> > BDC
>
> You're welcome; and I didn't mean to put you on the spot in any way.
>
> By the way, your overall chart pattern falls into what's known as the
Seesaw
> type, because the planets in your chart form two groupings which are on
> opposite sides of the chart, and which are separated from each other by
two
> large opposing gaps which total at least 180 degrees, with the smaller of
these
> two gaps measuring 60 degrees or more. The fact that you have several
> oppositions in your chart-- the Sun opposite Jupiter, the Moon opposite
Venus,
> Saturn opposite Uranus, Saturn opposite Pluto, Chiron opposite Uranus, and
> Chiron opposite Pluto-- reinforces this Seesaw pattern, because the Seesaw
> pattern is like a giant opposition. The Seesaw pattern can suggest
someone who
> feels pulled in two opposite directions in life, but it also suggests
someone
> who is particularly gifted at seeing both sides of issues, which can
contribute
> toward being a good advisor, mediator, or ambassador. For a writer, the
Seesaw
> pattern might suggest the ability to get inside the minds of his or her
> characters, as well as the ability to discuss a subject from two opposing
> points of view. It's therefore interesting that you described the
characters
> in your previous stories in terms of opposites-- "people who use science
and
> people who use magic, the young, the old, fundamentalists and liberals."
>
> Michael Rideout
>
Michael E. Richardson
This is the macrocosm-microcosm corollary. We are created in the 'image of
God.' The macrocosm is the microcosm expanded seven times, the microcosm is
the macrocosm contracted seven times. It is working on electrical and
magnetic fields simultaneously. The various planets have their magnetic and
electrical fields that produce a frequency and tone or sound that it
emanates. The point of origin is expanding out into the cosmos and
interacting with the others in the solar system. The life forms on a planet
are capable of receiving these emanations and reacting according to their
development. A young species would be apt to express their understanding
crudely, while an older (elder) species would express understanding more
refined.
Our ancients understood this as life lessons and appropriately stressed
these lessons onto the heavens as constellations that mirrored that "truth."
There are 12 signs and 36 sides to these 12 signs, so there are 48 basic
lessons. C.C. Zain explained all in his Brotherhood of Light astrological
lesson series. Mark Edmund Jones also explained how astrology works in his
book of that title. He re-established the Sabian symbols to each of the 360
degrees of the zodiac.
This three-dimensional world is so ordered that it allows mutiple realities
for all evolving species. The rythmn is such that upon birth we stamp our
bodies with the first breath with that set of qualities inherent at our
birthplace. forever after trying to manifest those potentials. Some succeed
better than other due to their understanding being better to make more
relationships available in a life-supporting manner than others. Using the
sun-moon cycle as a template: the conjunction blends the two energies, the
first quarter creates an action crisis, the opposition an internal conflict
that resolves into compromise, the third quarter is a consciousness crisis.
Each planetary pair goes through these cycles of interaction; even sensitive
points can garner lesson for us repeatedly until the lesson is learned and
we modify our behavior accordingly. If the lesson is unresolved, the lesson
continues. It is happening within and without. All societies have their way:
birth, rise, culminate, and fall according to the planets march over them.
Michael E. Richardson
"Brendan Carson" <gunc...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:d61d52c1.0110...@posting.google.com...