Re: The lapel flip was part of the left side startle reaction

[Mike]

On 10/10/2014 11:14 AM, Mike wrote:
> The lapel flip was part of John Connally's startle reaction to the
> something on his left side. It is not the result of a bullet exiting
> his chest.
>
> John Connally was hit on the back of his LEFT shoulder by the bullet
> that exited JFK's throat. That is what caused John Connallys startle
> reaction to his LEFT. It also caused the lapel flip.
>
> That bullet is not the bullet which penetrated his back and broke his
> ribs. Connally was hit by a second bullet about 1 second later that
> completely missed JFK.
>
> Here is a gif animation of frames 224 and 225 that show John Connally
> raising his left shoulder in reaction to a stimulus....
>
> Watch John Connally's left shoulder...
>
> https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Acd9cyfLnwQ/VDf1EOzqX_I/AAAAAAAADrI/bSBrPFMjlck/w313-h251-no/shoulder.gif
>
>
> Here is the complete startle reaction
>
> in real time
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB_H5spNq7o
>
> And in slow motion
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HesB3lzbV0E
>
>
> In reality, John Connally was hit by two bullets. The bullet which
> passed through JFK struck Connally on the back of his LEFT shoulder.
> That bullet became CE399. It was traveling too slow to do any damage.
>
> He was hit by a second bullet, 1 second later that completely missed
> JFK. That bullet penetrated his back and exited his chest.
>

I am posting this as a rebuttal to something David Von Pein is posting
in another forum.

He is posting this image and asking people to look at the "TIE" moving.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-KCPYZe3ljVA/UolSwZ4DOwI/AAAAAAAAw1o/JH7p-L7CfvU/s1600/110a.+Z224-Z225+Toggling+Clip.gif


The tie is moving because Connally was hit by the bullet that passed
through JFK's neck. But this bullet hit Connallys left shoulder. The
reason the Tie is moving is because Connally is reacting to being hit in
the left shoulder by the bullet that just passed through JFK's neck.
However this bullet was moving too slow and was probabily yawing when it
hit Connally and did no damage other than to startle him. Connally
reacts to this FIRST bullet by

1)raising his left shoulder
2)turning rapidly to his left and swatting with his hat.

This bullet became CE399.

That startle reaction can be seen in this clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB_H5spNq7o


About 1 second later, as seen in both the photographic and acoustic
evidence, a SECOND bullet was fired. The second bullet missed JFK
completely and it is this bullet that struck Connally in the back and
the bullet that caused Connally to grimmace in pain.


Connallys actions are showing us what TWO closely spaced bullets look
like photographically.


So how do we know the bullet that exited JFK's neck was moving at a very
slow velocity?

First, the video evidence suggests that it the case

Focus on JFK, it appears that he is gagging...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1O44oq_W1Ao

Second, look at this two frame sequence. JFK is closing his hand as if
he is trying to grab something AT EXACTLY the same time as Connally
raises his LEFT shoulder.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Acd9cyfLnwQ/VDf1EOzqX_I/AAAAAAAADrI/bSBrPFMjlck/w313-h251-no/shoulder.gif

Third, look at JFK in this frame. JFK has his right hand to his mouth
and he is ripping his shirt open with his left hand.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Acd9cyfLnwQ/VDf1EOzqX_I/AAAAAAAADrI/bSBrPFMjlck/w313-h251-no/shoulder.gif


Now the medical evidence.

We have the testimony of Dr. Ronald Coy Jones.

Dr. JOnes saw the neck wound before the tracheotomy.
He said the wound was small and circular with no jagged edges. He said
that if that wound was an EXIT wound it was caused by a missile moving
at a very slow velocity. So slow it almost did not exit the neck. This
description is completely consistent with the photographic evidence,
including the left shoulder raise of Connally and bullet CE399.

Mr. SPECTER - Will you describe as precisely as you can the wound that
you observed in the throat?

Dr. JONES - The wound in the throat was probably no larger than a
quarter of an inch in diameter. There appeared to be no powder burn
present, although this could have been masked by the amount of blood
that was on the head and neck, although there was no obvious, amount of
powder present. There appeared to be a very minimal amount of disruption
of interruption of the surrounding skin. There appeared to be relatively
smooth edges around the wound, and if this occurred as a result of a
missile, you would have probably thought it was a missile of very low
velocity and probably could have been compatible with a bone fragment of
either--probably exiting from the neck, but it was a very small, smooth
wound.


Dr. JONES - The hole was very small and relatively clean cut, as you
would see in a bullet that is entering rather than exiting from a
patient. If this were an exit wound, you would think that it exited at a
very low velocity to produce no more damage than this had done, and if
this were a missile of high velocity, you would expect more of an
explosive type of exit wound, with more tissue destruction than this
appeared to have on superficial examination.


Mr. SPECTER - Would it be consistent, then, with an exit wound, but of
low velocity, as you put it?

Dr. JONES - Yes; of very low velocity to the point that you might think
that this bullet barely made it through the soft tissues and just enough
to drop out of the skin on the opposite side.



And finally, we have the bullet. We have CE399. That bullet looks
exactly like we would expect a bullet to look if it passed through JFK
without striking anything hard, slowed down almost to the point it did
not exit, and struck Connally a glancing blow on his left shoulder.

All of the evidence, AND I MEAN ALL OF THE EVIDENCE, is consistent with
the fact that there were two shots, the first passed through JFK ,
slowed down , almost did not exit, did exit, struck Connally on his left
shoulder blade and became CE399. One second later Connally was struck by
a second bullet that completely missed JFK. That bullet struck Connally
below his right armpit.

This is a good example of the Sherlock Holmes quote..."Once you
eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbabily,
must be the truth"

[Mike]

And then DVP makes the following statement to refute the idea of two shots.

First notice to refute the idea of two shots he adds a third shot to
make the idea of two shots sound implausible...

"And those multiple shooters fired separate bullets into JFK's upper
back and throat----with neither bullet exiting the other side of his
body?? And then a third bullet struck John Connally at almost the exact
same moment? And then all three bullets disappear?*"


DVP ignores the Connally hat flip to the his LEFT, ignores the medical
evidence and ignores the condition of CE399.

All that is needed is application of the evidence to resolve this...

One shot that passed through JFK, slowed down almost lodging in JFK's
neck, exiting and striking Connally on his left shoulder causing
Connally to flinch to his LEFT and became CE399 and a second bullet
which missed JFK and hit Connally under the right armpit.

That scenario explains ALL the evidence. It explains the condition of
CE399. It explains the small circular exit wound in JFK's throat. It
explains what we see in the Zapruder film regarding JFK looking like he
is choking on something. It explains Connallys hat flip to the LEFT
before he starts to grimmace. It explains the acoustic evidence which
tells us there were two shots about 1 second apart at this time. Dr.
Barger had to say one was a false alarm ONLY because he knew that
Oswalds rifle could not be fired that quickly.



And we have the bullet!

[Mike]

Both Dr. Perry and Dr. Jones said the neck wound was small and circular

Both Dr. Perry and Dr. Ronald Jones saw the neck wound before the
tracheotomy.

Both doctors thought the wound in the neck was an entrance wound because
of it small and clean cut appearance.

If it was an exit wound it would have to be for a bullet moving at a
very slow velocity.

Dr. Perry...
"In the lower part of the neck below the Adams apple was a small,
roughly circula wound of perhaps 5mm in diameter from which blood was
exuding slowly"

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/perry_m1.htm

Dr. Ronald Jones

[Mike]

Here is the image showing JFK's right hand to his mouth and his left
hand trying to open his shirt.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-k62ULUveOVs/VC6mJe--pjI/AAAAAAAADpU/RzXfS6hjD_E/w313-h251-no/frame_230.png

[Mike]

John Connally , after viewing the z film, said the bullet which hit him
hit at frame 231 to frame 234.

QUOTE
Governor CONNALLY. It was just after we came out of the sign, for
whatever that sequence of numbers was, and if it was 200, I correct my
testimony. It was 231 to about 234. It was within that range.

Mr. SPECTER. That is all.

END QUOTE

Why is that important?

Because he says he was hit AFTER the startle reaction with his hat to
his LEFT.

Here again is where Connally is struck on his LEFT shoulder by the
bullet that just passed through JFK's neck...
That is frame 224-225.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Acd9cyfLnwQ/VDf1EOzqX_I/AAAAAAAADrI/bSBrPFMjlck/w313-h251-no/shoulder.gif

That event caused Connally's startle reaction to his LEFT with his hat
flip...That startle reaction was over by frame 230.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB_H5spNq7o


Here is frame 230. The startle reaction is over. But Connally HAS NOT
BEEN HIT by the bullet he said he FELT and knocked the wind out of him.
That did not happen until frames 231 to 234.


https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-k62ULUveOVs/VC6mJe--pjI/AAAAAAAADpU/RzXfS6hjD_E/w313-h251-no/frame_230.png


Two events.
Two bullets.
First bullet passed through JFK's neck. Almost lodged in his neck.
Exited creating very small and circular exit hole. Grazed Connally's

LEFT shoulder. That bullet became CE399.

Second bullet missed JFK completely, struck Connally below right armpit.

[Mike]

Now lets see if DVP has the cajones to reply to me in this thread.

[Mike]

Now DVP is trying to add to the theory things that I did not say.

There is no need for an imaginary wound to Connallys LEFT shoulder. The
bullet was going to slow, the only thing that bullet did was startle
Connally. That is what the photographic and medical evidence is telling
us.

CE399 is that bullet.

[Anthony Marsh]

Only grazed his LEFT shoulder. Show me the wound. Show me the holes on
his jacket. But didn't perforate? Then where did it go? Just stop in
midair and Connally grabbed it with his hand?

> Second bullet missed JFK completely, struck Connally below right armpit.
>
>

Instead of just making this up every day maybe you should get out a
piece of paper and write down your WHOLE scenario to account for everything.

>

[Anthony Marsh]

Yeah, so what? ER doctors make that mistake about HALF the time.

> If it was an exit wound it would have to be for a bullet moving at a
> very slow velocity.
>

No. Read Lattimer. He is correct about the shirt collar shoring up the skin.

> Dr. Perry...
> "In the lower part of the neck below the Adams apple was a small,
> roughly circula wound of perhaps 5mm in diameter from which blood was
> exuding slowly"
>
> http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/perry_m1.htm
>

Perhaps? Presumably? Approximately? Maybe? More likely than not?
And that'just from a 2-second glance.

> Dr. Ronald Jones
>
> Dr. JONES - The hole was very small and relatively clean cut, as you
> would see in a bullet that is entering rather than exiting from a
> patient. If this were an exit wound, you would think that it exited at a
> very low velocity to produce no more damage than this had done, and if
> this were a missile of high velocity, you would expect more of an
> explosive type of exit wound, with more tissue destruction than this
> appeared to have on superficial examination.
>

Superficial. That's why they do autopsies.

>

[Anthony Marsh]

Junk. The tie is not moving. The lapel is staying still while the body
is turning.

>
>
> The tie is moving because Connally was hit by the bullet that passed
> through JFK's neck. But this bullet hit Connallys left shoulder. The
> reason the Tie is moving is because Connally is reacting to being hit in
> the left shoulder by the bullet that just passed through JFK's neck.

Show me the wound. Show me the bullet hole in the jacket. You are making
up crap.
Watsamattau?
You guys couldn't find worse quality frames to show? Slackers!

That is stupid.

> https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Acd9cyfLnwQ/VDf1EOzqX_I/AAAAAAAADrI/bSBrPFMjlck/w313-h251-no/shoulder.gif
>
>
>
> Now the medical evidence.
>
> We have the testimony of Dr. Ronald Coy Jones.
>
> Dr. JOnes saw the neck wound before the tracheotomy.
> He said the wound was small and circular with no jagged edges. He said

WHich means absolutely nothing.

He was not a wound ballistics expert.

>
>
> And finally, we have the bullet. We have CE399. That bullet looks
> exactly like we would expect a bullet to look if it passed through JFK
> without striking anything hard, slowed down almost to the point it did
> not exit, and struck Connally a glancing blow on his left shoulder.
>

What do you have hitting the wrist. Show me THAT bullet. When did it hit?

[David Von Pein]

It's nice being a conspiracy theorist, isn't it Mike? You have the immense
freedom to just make up crap out of thin air---like your make-believe
bullet that "grazed" John Connally's left shoulder (where there was no
sign of any wound or any sign of clothing damage either).

Did the bullet just completely STOP right there on top of his shoulder and
do a Robert Conrad imitation, causing no damage at all?

http://www.wrestlecrap.com/induction%20files/wm2/robertconrad.jpg

[Mike]

I am not the one making up stuff, you are.

Your own animation shows that Connally was struck in the LEFT shoulder.

Here is that animation.

This animation VERY CLEARLY shows that Connally was struck on the LEFT
shoulder.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Acd9cyfLnwQ/VDf1EOzqX_I/AAAAAAAADrI/bSBrPFMjlck/w313-h251-no/shoulder.gif


Being struck on the LEFT shoulder is what started John Connally's
startle reaction to his LEFT , which you do not show in your 2 frame
animation.

You do not show the complete startle reaction to the LEFT.

Here is the complete startle reaction to the LEFT.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB_H5spNq7o


You completely ignore all the evidence that is telling us that the
bullet which struck Connally on his LEFT shoulder was moving too slow to
do any damage...


If the bullet was moving slow and yawing whether it would leave a mark
depends upon how fast the bullet was moving when it struck Connallys
left shoulder.

We know it hit his left shoulder because the animation shows us that it
did. The fact that it did not leave any visible evidence is just more
evidence that the bullet was moving very slow when it struck Connally.

All of the evidence we have, AND I MEAN ALL OF THE EVIDENCE we have is
consistent with a slow moving bullet striking Connally on his LEFT
shoulder...

1) The exit wound in the neck was small and circular. Two doctors
mistakenly thought this was an entry wound because of the small ,
circular size of the wound. The doctors testified that if that wound was
an EXIT wound it would have to be caused by a bullet moving at a very
slow velocity, so slow that it almost did not exit the body.

2)The video evidence shows that JFK appears to be choking on something.
He has his right hand to his mouth and his left had trying to rip open
his shirt..the right hand to his mouth...

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-k62ULUveOVs/VC6mJe--pjI/AAAAAAAADpU/RzXfS6hjD_E/w313-h251-no/frame_230.png


3)JFK is closing his hand as if he is trying to grab something AT

EXACTLY the same time as Connally raises his LEFT shoulder.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Acd9cyfLnwQ/VDf1EOzqX_I/AAAAAAAADrI/bSBrPFMjlck/w313-h251-no/shoulder.gif

4) We have the damn bullet. CE399 is exactly consistent with a bullet
that was moving too slow to cause any damage to Connally when it struck
him.

5)The acoustic evidence shows that there were two shots in about 1
second at this time. Dr. Barger said one was a false alarm ONLY because
he knew Oswalds rifle could not be fired that quickly


You say there should be a mark, I say not if the bullet almost did not
exit JFK's body and when it did exit his body it exited with a very slow
velocity. That is what the evidence is telling us.

Once again here is what Dr. Ronald Coy Jones said

[Mike]

On 5/15/2015 10:45 PM, David Von Pein wrote:

Again, you are the one who is making things up.

We both agree that the bullet we are talking about passed through JFK's
body first.

Peoples body stop bullets all the time. If their body stops a bullet
that means their body caused that bullets velocity to drop to zero
somewhere inside the body.

We have the testimony of two doctors that the EXIT wound was small and
circular. It was so small and so uniform they both thought it was an
entry wound not an exit wound. One of those doctors testified that the
bullet was moving so slow that it almost did not exit the body.

Again, WE HAVE THE FRIGGIN BULLET. That bullet looks exactly like we
would expect a bullet to look if it just startled Connally on his LEFT
side after first passing through JFk.

In the following video clip, IT IS Connalys LEFT SIDE STARTLE REACTION
which is SYNCRHONOUS with JFK raising his arms. Connally was struck by a
second bullet that completely missed JFK about 1 second later.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB_H5spNq7o

[Mike]

On 5/15/2015 10:45 PM, David Von Pein wrote:

You are conveniently ignoring the evidence which supports a slow moving
bullet...i.e.,
1) the small circular exit wound in the neck
2) the condition of CE399
3) the rise of Connallys LEFT should in synchronicity with JFK's hand
movements to his throat.
4) Connally's startle reaction to his LEFT! ( not to his right, to his
LEFT)

[Anthony Marsh]

On 5/16/2015 8:34 PM, Mike wrote:
> On 5/15/2015 10:45 PM, David Von Pein wrote:
>> It's nice being a conspiracy theorist, isn't it Mike? You have the
>> immense
>> freedom to just make up crap out of thin air---like your make-believe
>> bullet that "grazed" John Connally's left shoulder (where there was no
>> sign of any wound or any sign of clothing damage either).
>>
>> Did the bullet just completely STOP right there on top of his shoulder
>> and
>> do a Robert Conrad imitation, causing no damage at all?
>>
>> http://www.wrestlecrap.com/induction%20files/wm2/robertconrad.jpg
>>
>
>
> You are conveniently ignoring the evidence which supports a slow moving
> bullet...i.e.,
> 1) the small circular exit wound in the neck

No.

> 2) the condition of CE399

Prove that it hit anything.

> 3) the rise of Connallys LEFT should in synchronicity with JFK's hand
> movements to his throat.

No such thing.

> 4) Connally's startle reaction to his LEFT! ( not to his right, to his
> LEFT)
>

No.
He said he turned to the left.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 5/16/2015 8:26 PM, Mike wrote:
> On 5/15/2015 10:45 PM, David Von Pein wrote:
>> It's nice being a conspiracy theorist, isn't it Mike? You have the
>> immense
>> freedom to just make up crap out of thin air---like your make-believe
>> bullet that "grazed" John Connally's left shoulder (where there was no
>> sign of any wound or any sign of clothing damage either).
>>
>> Did the bullet just completely STOP right there on top of his shoulder
>> and
>> do a Robert Conrad imitation, causing no damage at all?
>>
>> http://www.wrestlecrap.com/induction%20files/wm2/robertconrad.jpg
>>
>
> Again, you are the one who is making things up.
>
> We both agree that the bullet we are talking about passed through JFK's
> body first.
>
> Peoples body stop bullets all the time. If their body stops a bullet
> that means their body caused that bullets velocity to drop to zero
> somewhere inside the body.
>
> We have the testimony of two doctors that the EXIT wound was small and
> circular. It was so small and so uniform they both thought it was an
> entry wound not an exit wound. One of those doctors testified that the
> bullet was moving so slow that it almost did not exit the body.
>

Meaningless. ER doctors are not forensic pathologists. That's why we
have autopsies.

> Again, WE HAVE THE FRIGGIN BULLET. That bullet looks exactly like we
> would expect a bullet to look if it just startled Connally on his LEFT
> side after first passing through JFk.
>

You have A bullet. You then have to prove it was THE bullet.

> In the following video clip, IT IS Connalys LEFT SIDE STARTLE REACTION
> which is SYNCRHONOUS with JFK raising his arms. Connally was struck by a
> second bullet that completely missed JFK about 1 second later.
>

Show me the wound. Show me the bullet holes in his clothes.
You are spewing crap.

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB_H5spNq7o
>

[tom...@cox.net]

THE LAPEL FLIP WAS CAUSED BY A NORTH WIND FROM THE GRASSY KNOLL ! ! !
WHENTHE MOTORCADE TNED NORH ONTO HOUSTON STREET, JACKIE ALMOST LOST HER HAT
AND, MOTORCYCLE OFFICER MARION L. BAKER ALMOST GOT BLOWN OFF OF HIS
MOTORCYCE ! ! !
===========================================================================
=

--
-------------------- http://NewsReader.Com/ --------------------
Usenet Newsgroup Service $9.95/Month 30GB

[Mike]

Look at the film. That is not a voluntary turn to his left. That is a
startle reaction. All of that happens in less than half a second...

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-h5M7_T60Z74/VVoC3rD8FjI/AAAAAAAAEHk/nq2gyB0csKY/w190-h147-no/connally_LEFT.gif

[Mike]

On 5/19/2015 7:55 PM, tom...@cox.net wrote:

Forget the lapel flip that is a red herring.

The real action is the rise of his left shoulder. The bullet that passed
through JFK hit Connally on his left shoulder the lapel flip is irrelevant.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Acd9cyfLnwQ/VDf1EOzqX_I/AAAAAAAADrI/bSBrPFMjlck/w313-h251-no/shoulder.gif

Hat flap to his left is a continuation of being hit on the left
shoulder. AFTER THE HAT FLAP IS OVER is when we see Connally hit. That
is the second shot which struck Connally and missed JFK completely.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-h5M7_T60Z74/VVoC3rD8FjI/AAAAAAAAEHk/nq2gyB0csKY/w190-h147-no/connally_LEFT.gif