By far the best George Floyd police cam video of the arrest

[Bud]

I hope that this is allowed, because it is just too good.

https://youtu.be/XkEGGLu_fNU

A few thoughts. It seems the cops were just holding him down until
paramedics arrived. Strangely enough, no visible attempts were made to
resuscitate by the medical folks that arrived. Also, it appears that Floyd
tried to pass counterfeit money at another store, and they wouldn`t take
it. He then went to the tobacco store. Kinda kills the idea that he
accidentally passed phony money.

This should have been made available on day one. Context matters.

[John McAdams]

I've reposted this, so I'll allow comments on it and the entire George
Floyd issue for the next couple of days.

.John
-----------------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

[Bud]

Thanks! Like I said, it seemed pretty good.

One change, looking at the video again, it seems that it wasn`t a
different store, I think there are multiple cashiers in that same store.
Floyd and the guy with the dredds seem to have been passing counterfeit
money.

[BOZ]

What happens at the end?

[BOZ]

On Monday, August 10, 2020 at 8:04:09 PM UTC-3, Bud wrote:

George accidentally took FEtanyl.

[chucksch...@gmail.com]

And by far the best article on George Floyd. A must read. I know the
neighborhoods in Minneapolis that have been wrecked, and the devastation
is immense; much worse than what you see on television. When these cops
are found not guilty of second degree murder, the new riots will dwarf the
ones this spring/summer. Read below and be ready for the largest urban
riots in US history since the NYC riots during the Civil War that killed
300 people:

https://spectator.org/george-floyd-death-toxicology-report/

[John Corbett]

It is not a question of whether George Floyd committed a crime. The
question now is whether the cops committed a crime. It is rather absurd
that to argue that they were just holding him down until the paramedics
arrived. Why would you hold somebody down who is having a medical
emergency by kneeling on his throat. That is inexcusable. Why would you
continue to do so after being told he had no pulse. That is criminal.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 8/10/2020 7:04 PM, Bud wrote:
>
> I hope that this is allowed, because it is just too good.
>
> https://youtu.be/XkEGGLu_fNU
>
> A few thoughts. It seems the cops were just holding him down until
> paramedics arrived. Strangely enough, no visible attempts were made to

NO, silly. The intent was to hold him down unril he went unconscious.

> resuscitate by the medical folks that arrived. Also, it appears that Floyd
> tried to pass counterfeit money at another store, and they wouldn`t take

Rumor. Prove it in court.

> it. He then went to the tobacco store. Kinda kills the idea that he
> accidentally passed phony money.
>

You kinda always assume what you can't prove.

> This should have been made available on day one. Context matters.
>
>

But you don't. Instead of constantly guessing, try to actually PROVE
something some time.

[Anthony Marsh]

Something like that. did you know that our mayor accidentally gave out
hand sanitizer that was poisonous?
It's so easy to get those -thols confused.

[BOZ]

Notice the Communist raised FISTS.

[Bud]

Confirms a lot of things I was saying. Floyd might have died no matter
what the cops did. Too much was done to appease the narrative rather than
the facts. Of course the order of the day is to appeal to emotionalism
rather than facts. The mainstream media did everything it could to provoke
the violence by making no attempt to get the real facts to the public. And
because of this you get virtue signaling punks throwing bombs at cops and
feeling good about themselves for doing it when they aren`t half the man
of the person they are throwing shit at.

Baden getting involved influenced the Medical Examiner`s report, even
though everything he did was slipshod. Said Floyd died of asphyxiation (he
didn`t), said Floyd had no sign of heart disease (he did), and rendered
opinions without seeing the toxicity report. I have no respect for the
Baden any more, he threw gasoline on the fire by giving the Floyd family
just what they wanted for their lawsuit. He looks to have sold his
reputation to appease the people who hired him, I wonder if he is getting
a cut of the settlement.

[Bud]

On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 8:29:03 PM UTC-4, John Corbett wrote:
> On Monday, August 10, 2020 at 7:04:09 PM UTC-4, Bud wrote:
> > I hope that this is allowed, because it is just too good.
> >
> > https://youtu.be/XkEGGLu_fNU
> >
> > A few thoughts. It seems the cops were just holding him down until
> > paramedics arrived. Strangely enough, no visible attempts were made to
> > resuscitate by the medical folks that arrived. Also, it appears that Floyd
> > tried to pass counterfeit money at another store, and they wouldn`t take
> > it. He then went to the tobacco store. Kinda kills the idea that he
> > accidentally passed phony money.
> >
> > This should have been made available on day one. Context matters.
>
> It is not a question of whether George Floyd committed a crime.

Some have questioned whether he had. People have been polishing this
turd from the beginning.

> The
> question now is whether the cops committed a crime.

My question would be what reason is there to believe they did?

> It is rather absurd
> that to argue that they were just holding him down until the paramedics
> arrived.

Is it? Just a coincidence they got off him when the paramedics arrived
then?

> Why would you hold somebody down who is having a medical
> emergency by kneeling on his throat.

Again, you assume the knee contributed to Floyd`s demise. It may have
played out exactly the same had they stood over him and played patty-cake
with one another. Beside all the destruction caused by people who assumed
the cops were the cause, that is.

> That is inexcusable. Why would you
> continue to do so after being told he had no pulse.

What changes? Unless they had a legal obligation to attempt
resuscitation he was fine just where he was. Only if you see the knee as a
contributing factor does it matter.

The article Chuck linked to contains a lot of the ammunition the defense
is going to use, I would expect. It is going to be an uphill battle to
prove anything about what was the cause of Floyd`s death. The Medical
Examiner released some information, and then it appears they changed their
tune on some points, perhaps because of the Baden autopsy. They are going
to have to get on the stand and justify their conclusions definitively,
proving it was the manner of arrest that caused Floyd`s death. With the
drugs in his system it shouldn`t be hard for teh defense to find experts
who will testify it was the drugs he took that killed him. That alone
might cause reasonable doubt about what killed Floyd. The lack of neck
trauma will work against them. The autopsy concluded the cause of death
was...

“CARDIOPULMONARY ARREST COMPLICATING LAW ENFORCEMENT SUBDUAL,
RESTRAINT, AND NECK COMPRESSION.”

But the autopsy doesn`t seem to contain any physical support uncovered
in the autopsy that supports that finding.

The cops are paid to subdue and restrain criminals, and there could
always be some neck compression involved in the physical restraining. What
damage was noted that led the ME to believe this was what caused Floyd`s
death? If they get good defense attorneys I think they are going to give
the ME a difficult time on the stand.

> That is criminal.

It is only criminal if they caused his death. That is looking more and
more problematic.

[Bud]

On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 8:29:32 PM UTC-4, Anthony Marsh wrote:
> On 8/10/2020 7:04 PM, Bud wrote:
> >
> > I hope that this is allowed, because it is just too good.
> >
> > https://youtu.be/XkEGGLu_fNU
> >
> > A few thoughts. It seems the cops were just holding him down until
> > paramedics arrived. Strangely enough, no visible attempts were made to
>
> NO, silly. The intent was to hold him down unril he went unconscious.

Is that what the voices in your head are telling you?

> > resuscitate by the medical folks that arrived. Also, it appears that Floyd
> > tried to pass counterfeit money at another store, and they wouldn`t take
>
> Rumor. Prove it in court.

I don`t think Floyd is up to making any court appearances.

> > it. He then went to the tobacco store. Kinda kills the idea that he
> > accidentally passed phony money.
> >
>
> You kinda always assume what you can't prove.

So you admit all those rioters had no justification for their actions.

> > This should have been made available on day one. Context matters.
> >
> >
>
> But you don't. Instead of constantly guessing, try to actually PROVE
> something some time.

So you think those lynch mobs should have waited until Chauvin had his
day in court? I agree.

[Anthony Marsh]

So you say it is OK to kill someone if you claim it was a bad person?

[Anthony Marsh]

Oh, so you say rhat only comminists are allowed to raise fists?

[Bud]

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-WLGRe2-E5nw/Wr5Erzv17CI/AAAAAAAAMeI/V-SCgLccC2oCfwdzCGunzaOg3i7euSefwCLcBGAs/s1600/communist%2Bclenched%2Bfist%2Boswald_fist.jpg

[chucksch...@gmail.com]

It gets better for the defense. Here's the actual Power Point slides the
MPD uses to show exactly HOW to place a knee on a neck when restraining
suspect of a crime or an individual potentially suffering under drugs or
whatever, like Floyd obviously was. It's slide 26 out of 35, I believe:

http://www.mncourts.gov/mncourtsgov/media/High-Profile-Cases/27-CR-20-12951-TKL/Exhibit67807072020.pdf

The AG here in Minnesota better figure out what to do because if Chauvin
gets a real jury of his peers to render judgment about a 2nd degree murder
charge, he's going free. When that jury next summer announces "not guilty
of the crime of second degree murder," the riots are going to dwarf
anything we've seen in many years. Minneapolis will get leveled and other
cities will burn, too. I'm worried about this city

[chucksch...@gmail.com]

We're saying the cop probably isn't guilty of second degree murder of
George Floyd.

Even you don't want to see an innocent man go to jail, do you?

[BOZ]

Rossley's ghost says that Oswald was showing off his marine corps ring in
that picture. Oswald would have been a member of Antifa and Black Lives
Matter if he were living today.

[Bud]

They attacked the Ronald McDonald House for terminally ill children.
They are such good people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMUBCQUYQ00

[BOZ]

Chauvin should claim not guilty by reason of insanity. White rage? Roid
Rage? Cop rage? rage in the Cage?

[BOZ]

I hope Trump wins. I hope the cops are found not guilty in the death of
Pretty Boy George the Landlord Floyd. When the riots start I hope the
shooting starts and the police will shoot and kill many leftwing
university professors, politicians, Antifa,Marxists and members of BLM.

[Bud]

I think they are going to have trouble with the Arbery case, also, which
will add more fuel to the fire. There seems to be a real disconnect
between the emotion driven narratives and the actual facts of these cases.
If things go as they should, the facts will prevail. Problem being all the
people who are already emotionally invested in the false narratives. The
media plays a large part in this, they coddle the visceral reactions, and
bury the pertinent information.

I was just looking into the Eric Gardner case a little bit, because the
coroner`s finding in that case was similar to the one in the Floyd case,
"compression of neck (choke hold), compression of chest and prone
positioning during physical restraint by police".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Eric_Garner

Now look at the dishonest framing of the event by the media...

https://youtu.be/RyM9Z2HHfog

Terms like "apparent chokehold", they keep mentioning he was unarmed
(but ignore that he forces the arrest to become violent with his
noncompliance). Slip into the story that he had been arrested 30 times.
Until the shrill emotionalism of these people is countered with the cold
harsh facts, they will continue to demand "justice" which is simply mob
rule.

[BOZ]

The Arbery case was clearly self defence. The bastard deserved it.

[BOZ]

Let the Civil War begin. Let's get ready to rumble. I'm declaring war on
leftists.

[John Corbett]

I don't assume. That was the finding of the coroner. The coroner's
finding is admissible evidence. Of course the defense can challenge that
finding in court, but it is not an assumption.

> It may have
> played out exactly the same had they stood over him and played patty-cake
> with one another. Beside all the destruction caused by people who assumed
> the cops were the cause, that is.

All that is necessary is for the prosecution is to prove that Chauvin
contributed to Floyd's demise. Even if other factors were contributing, if
one of those factors was Chauvin's action, he is guilty.


This is similar in many ways to the killing of Hattie Carrol by William
Zantzinger many years ago in a case made famous in a Bob Dylan song. If
you only knew of the case from Dylan's song, you'd think Zantzinger had
bashed her brains out with a cane. The reality is he struck her with a 25
cent toy cane that didn't even leave a mark. What it did do was trigger a
physiological response that caused her to go into cardiac arrest due
largely to medical issues she had. The fact that Zantzinger's actions were
the catalyst, even though not the primary cause of her death, made him
guilty of manslaughter. I suspect the Floyd case will play out the same
which would make Chauvin guilty of manslaughter. Murder Two seems an
overreach and might just be a plea bargaining ploy. If Chauvin is
convicted, he'll probably serve less than five years.

> > That is inexcusable. Why would you
> > continue to do so after being told he had no pulse.
> What changes? Unless they had a legal obligation to attempt
> resuscitation he was fine just where he was. Only if you see the knee as a
> contributing factor does it matter.

He had a legal obligation not to kneel on the throat of a guy who was
having a medical emergency and staying there until the guy stopped
breathing.

>
> The article Chuck linked to contains a lot of the ammunition the defense
> is going to use, I would expect. It is going to be an uphill battle to
> prove anything about what was the cause of Floyd`s death. The Medical
> Examiner released some information, and then it appears they changed their
> tune on some points, perhaps because of the Baden autopsy. They are going
> to have to get on the stand and justify their conclusions definitively,
> proving it was the manner of arrest that caused Floyd`s death. With the
> drugs in his system it shouldn`t be hard for teh defense to find experts
> who will testify it was the drugs he took that killed him. That alone
> might cause reasonable doubt about what killed Floyd. The lack of neck
> trauma will work against them. The autopsy concluded the cause of death
> was...
>
> “CARDIOPULMONARY ARREST COMPLICATING LAW ENFORCEMENT SUBDUAL,
> RESTRAINT, AND NECK COMPRESSION.”
>
> But the autopsy doesn`t seem to contain any physical support uncovered
> in the autopsy that supports that finding.

Those are details that will be brought out in court and likely challenged
by the defense. It will then be for the jury to decide if the prosecution
has proved its case.

> The cops are paid to subdue and restrain criminals, and there could
> always be some neck compression involved in the physical restraining. What
> damage was noted that led the ME to believe this was what caused Floyd`s
> death? If they get good defense attorneys I think they are going to give
> the ME a difficult time on the stand.
>

You are trying to excuse the inexcusable. There was no excuse for Chauvin
to kneel on Floyd's throat wile he was pleading that he couldn't breathe.
It wouldn't bother me a bit if he got 20 years but that is probably
wishful thinking.

> > That is criminal.
>
> It is only criminal if they caused his death. That is looking more and
> more problematic.

It is criminal if he even CONTRIBUTED to Floyd's death, even if other
factors were involved.

[John Corbett]

On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 10:51:45 PM UTC-4, Bud wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 4:24:58 PM UTC-4, chucksch...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Monday, August 10, 2020 at 6:04:09 PM UTC-5, Bud wrote:
> > > I hope that this is allowed, because it is just too good.
> > >
> > > https://youtu.be/XkEGGLu_fNU
> > >
> > > A few thoughts. It seems the cops were just holding him down until
> > > paramedics arrived. Strangely enough, no visible attempts were made to
> > > resuscitate by the medical folks that arrived. Also, it appears that Floyd
> > > tried to pass counterfeit money at another store, and they wouldn`t take
> > > it. He then went to the tobacco store. Kinda kills the idea that he
> > > accidentally passed phony money.
> > >
> > > This should have been made available on day one. Context matters.
> >
> >
> > And by far the best article on George Floyd. A must read. I know the
> > neighborhoods in Minneapolis that have been wrecked, and the devastation
> > is immense; much worse than what you see on television. When these cops
> > are found not guilty of second degree murder, the new riots will dwarf the
> > ones this spring/summer. Read below and be ready for the largest urban
> > riots in US history since the NYC riots during the Civil War that killed
> > 300 people:
> >
> > https://spectator.org/george-floyd-death-toxicology-report/
> Confirms a lot of things I was saying. Floyd might have died no matter
> what the cops did.

You could say the same thing about any homicide victim.


"He might have died of a heart attack if I hadn't shot him six times.".

[David Von Pein]

Relevant comments from an AAJ discussion from 2 months ago....

BUD SAID:

Seems my premise that people stick to their preconceived notions no matter
what is holding up. You [John Corbett] didn't give any thought to the fact
that Floyd was saying he couldn't breathe before Chauvin had his knee on
Floyd's throat, and when that important detail is brought to your
attention it has no impact on your perception of the event.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

The impact it has on John's perception of the event is exactly the same as
mine---it makes Chauvin look much much WORSE. If he KNEW that the man he
had pinned underneath him was possibly having a heart attack (or was
experiencing ANY kind of a medical emergency), then that is all the more
reason to NOT do what Chauvin did to George Floyd. (And does the
recommended treatment for a "panic attack" really require the patient to
be pinned down with his face scraping the pavement? Sounds odd to me.)

And we know that Chauvin WAS definitely aware of Floyd having SOME type of
medical problem. And that's because the officers called for an ambulance
for Floyd. And waiting for the ambulance, in fact, was most likely the
ONLY reason they waited for 9 minutes to take Floyd up off the ground. If
the ambulance had arrived 3 or 4 minutes earlier, George Floyd would
likely still be alive right now.


BUD SAID:

Floyd's death of a heart attack might not have anything to do with any
action by the police other than the initial lawful arrest.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

The initial Hennepin County press release is very confusing when it comes
to trying to decipher what they mean in the "Cause of Death" section. It
says:

"Cause of death: Cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement
subdual, restraint, and neck compression."

The word "complicating" there makes no sense. It makes it sound as if the
"cardiopulmonary arrest" is actually making it difficult for the cops to
subdue Floyd. Ridiculous wording there. They probably meant to say
"complicated by" instead of "complicating".

And I'm still unsure if the term "cardiopulmonary arrest" in that report
is actually referring to a "heart attack" (per se), or whether it's simply
technical coroner-like language which means: The patient's heart stopped.

Also note this part of the same press release:

"How injury occurred: Decedent experienced a cardiopulmonary arrest while
being restrained by law enforcement officer(s)."

So that language above certainly gives the impression that the
"cardiopulmonary arrest" occurred DURING the period when Floyd was being
restrained by the police---not before then. Although I don't know how any
medical examiner could determine exactly WHEN such a heart problem
STARTED. Which, again, makes me think the term "arrest" in that particular
report is merely referring to this definition of the word "arrest":

ARREST -- "To bring to a stop."

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2020/05/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1338.html

(Note --- Links to 6 different very good AAJ discussions relating to the
George Floyd case, including this thread, can be found near the bottom of
my webpage above.)

[Bud]

Doesn`t say the knee caused it. There was a similar finding in the Eric
Gardner case, and no knee was employed on his neck.

And he is going to have to answer to what evidence he found on the body
that supports this finding.

> The coroner's
> finding is admissible evidence. Of course the defense can challenge that
> finding in court, but it is not an assumption.
>
>
> > It may have
> > played out exactly the same had they stood over him and played patty-cake
> > with one another. Beside all the destruction caused by people who assumed
> > the cops were the cause, that is.
>
>
> All that is necessary is for the prosecution is to prove that Chauvin
> contributed to Floyd's demise.

No. They had probable cause to arrest him. He resisted arrest, he
refused to comply with instructions, that is why things played out as they
did.

Perhaps had they not arrested him he might still be alive, but it isn`t
up to the cops, it is up to the criminals. Perhaps the excitement of the
arrest contributed, but the cops don`t bring a medical team with them to
ensure the person they are arresting can withstand the rigors of being
arrested.

> Even if other factors were contributing, if
> one of those factors was Chauvin's action, he is guilty.

No, it has to be an unlawful action. What Chuck produced, and the fact
that their city council rescinded the use of a knee as a restraining
option *after* the incident tends to show it was a lawful maneuver. That
Floyd did not die of asphyxiation and his neck showed to sign of trauma is
going to make it difficult for them to make a "this caused this" type
argument.

> This is similar in many ways to the killing of Hattie Carrol by William
> Zantzinger many years ago in a case made famous in a Bob Dylan song. If
> you only knew of the case from Dylan's song, you'd think Zantzinger had
> bashed her brains out with a cane. The reality is he struck her with a 25
> cent toy cane that didn't even leave a mark. What it did do was trigger a
> physiological response that caused her to go into cardiac arrest due
> largely to medical issues she had. The fact that Zantzinger's actions were
> the catalyst, even though not the primary cause of her death, made him
> guilty of manslaughter.

And this shows why this prosecution is bogus. If cops can`t arrest
people for fear they have some underlying illness which might make them
drop dead, what point is there being a cop at all? This incident with
Floyd became physical because the person being arrested made the arrest
become physical. In the Eric Garner case the cops stood and talked to him
for quite a long time trying to convince him to come peaceably (I can`t
find the video that used to be on youtube showing just how long they
talked with try to convince him to allow the arrest to occur). If hitting
someone with a stick lightly can cause death, and you can be charged with
causing that death, what chance does that give the cops?

> I suspect the Floyd case will play out the same
> which would make Chauvin guilty of manslaughter. Murder Two seems an
> overreach and might just be a plea bargaining ploy. If Chauvin is
> convicted, he'll probably serve less than five years.

I think in a perfect world he walks, but political considerations might
preclude that. If he is convicted of anything I would expect him to get
the maximum that charge allows, in deference to the angry mobs.

> > > That is inexcusable. Why would you
> > > continue to do so after being told he had no pulse.
> > What changes? Unless they had a legal obligation to attempt
> > resuscitation he was fine just where he was. Only if you see the knee as a
> > contributing factor does it matter.
>
>
> He had a legal obligation not to kneel on the throat of a guy who was
> having a medical emergency and staying there until the guy stopped
> breathing.

Again, you presume a connection between the two things that might not
exist. And his legal obligation might have been to hold Floyd still until
medical personnel could arrive.

> > The article Chuck linked to contains a lot of the ammunition the defense
> > is going to use, I would expect. It is going to be an uphill battle to
> > prove anything about what was the cause of Floyd`s death. The Medical
> > Examiner released some information, and then it appears they changed their
> > tune on some points, perhaps because of the Baden autopsy. They are going
> > to have to get on the stand and justify their conclusions definitively,
> > proving it was the manner of arrest that caused Floyd`s death. With the
> > drugs in his system it shouldn`t be hard for teh defense to find experts
> > who will testify it was the drugs he took that killed him. That alone
> > might cause reasonable doubt about what killed Floyd. The lack of neck
> > trauma will work against them. The autopsy concluded the cause of death
> > was...
> >
> > “CARDIOPULMONARY ARREST COMPLICATING LAW ENFORCEMENT SUBDUAL,
> > RESTRAINT, AND NECK COMPRESSION.”
> >
> > But the autopsy doesn`t seem to contain any physical support uncovered
> > in the autopsy that supports that finding.
>
> Those are details that will be brought out in court and likely challenged
> by the defense.

No, that is the point, they should have been included in the autopsy. If
there was physical evidence found during the autopsy in support of the
findings it should have been detailed in the report.

> It will then be for the jury to decide if the prosecution
> has proved its case.

It will be up to the Medical Examiner to show his findings were correct,
and what evidence they were based on.

> > The cops are paid to subdue and restrain criminals, and there could
> > always be some neck compression involved in the physical restraining. What
> > damage was noted that led the ME to believe this was what caused Floyd`s
> > death? If they get good defense attorneys I think they are going to give
> > the ME a difficult time on the stand.
> >
>
> You are trying to excuse the inexcusable. There was no excuse for Chauvin
> to kneel on Floyd's throat wile he was pleading that he couldn't breathe.

Again, you are assuming a cause and effect.

> It wouldn't bother me a bit if he got 20 years but that is probably
> wishful thinking.

Had Floyd died of asphyxiation and Chauvin`s knee could be shown to have
cut off oxygen, then you might be able to get this result.

> > > That is criminal.
> >
> > It is only criminal if they caused his death. That is looking more and
> > more problematic.
>
> It is criminal if he even CONTRIBUTED to Floyd's death, even if other
> factors were involved.

The excitement of being arrested might cause many people to drop dead
by exasperating existing conditions, should cops stop arresting people?

[Bud]

A bogus argument that assumes what you need to show, willful unlawful
murder. The arrest became a physical one because of Floyd`s actions. If
the physicality of the arrest exasperated existing physical conditions,
including drug use, the fault lies with Floyd. I`m sure there have been
many, many meth tweekers who died during their arrests because the
excitement coupled with the stimulant in their systems was more than their
heart could withstand.

[chucksch...@gmail.com]

He didn't kneel on his throat precisely so he COULD breathe. Watch the
videos. Read the excellent article I linked to. The technique Chauvin used
is actually TAUGHT to the MPD cops. I linked to the actual PowerPoint
slides the MPD used for this training. Chauvin used an approved technique
to restrain a suspect who is being unruly and/or suffering from a possible
overdose and going through what I think they call excited delirium.

> It wouldn't bother me a bit if he got 20 years but that is probably
> wishful thinking.
>
> > > That is criminal.
> >
> > It is only criminal if they caused his death. That is looking more and
> > more problematic.
>
> It is criminal if he even CONTRIBUTED to Floyd's death, even if other
> factors were involved.

The cops are not charged with contributing to his death; the cops are
charged with second degree murder.

[John Corbett]

I don't have to prove anything. That will be the job of the prosecutor.
For there to be a conviction, it does not have to be shown that Chauvin
willfully murdered Floyd. If it is proven he acted either negligently or
recklessly, manslaughter applies.

> The arrest became a physical one because of Floyd`s actions. If
> the physicality of the arrest exasperated existing physical conditions,
> including drug use, the fault lies with Floyd.

Even if all that is true, it does not give an arresting officer a license
to do whatever he damn well pleases. If the force is excessive, the cop is
criminally liable. Kneeling on Floyd's throat for almost nine minutes
while he is pleading that he can't breathe seems quite excessive to me.
Even if Floyd's physical condition contributed to his demise, the question
is still whether excessive force by Chauvin also contributed. If so,
Chauvin is guilty as hell.

> I`m sure there have been
> many, many meth tweekers who died during their arrests because the
> excitement coupled with the stimulant in their systems was more than their
> heart could withstand.

What were you saying about assuming what you need to show?

You still want to make this about George Floyd. You are putting the victim
on trial. This is about Derek Chauvin's actions and that of the other
officers invovled. If they acted illegally, either through negligence or
recklessness and that contributed to Floyd's death, they are criminals.
That is true even if Floyd was acting improperly.

[John Corbett]

A reasonable person would realize the technique should not be used on
someone who is having a medical emergency and is telling you he can't
breathe. Only a complete scumbag would continue using that technique even
after being told the victim had no pulse. Chauvin belongs in jail with all
the other scumbags. I hope he gets what he has coming to him.

> > It wouldn't bother me a bit if he got 20 years but that is probably
> > wishful thinking.
> >
> > > > That is criminal.
> > >
> > > It is only criminal if they caused his death. That is looking more and
> > > more problematic.
> >
> > It is criminal if he even CONTRIBUTED to Floyd's death, even if other
> > factors were involved.
> The cops are not charged with contributing to his death; the cops are
> charged with second degree murder.

The murder charge is probably an overreach and might be a plea bargaining
ploy unless the prosecution can present some aggravating circumstances
beyond what we already know. Manslaughter does not require that the
accused intended to kill the victim, only that the accused acted in a
negligent or reckless manner that contributed to the victim's death.

[John McAdams]

On 13 Aug 2020 22:14:40 -0000, John Corbett <jecorb...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

It spite of the fact that you seem to be at odds with Bud and Chuck, I
think sensible people are not far apart on this.

Yes, Chauvin was guilty of some misconduct, probably criminal
misconduct.

But he's been over charged.

See Ben Shapiro on this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7CwHIC9dTY

I think it's also clear there is absolutely no evidence that racism
had anything to do with it.

.John
-----------------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

[chucksch...@gmail.com]

After reading the American Spectator article (read it...I linked to it
earlier), I'm not even sure the cops are guilty of anything at all. The
MPD approved technique Chauvin used seems to literally be by the book. The
cops actually seem to be showing restraint and a modicum of sympathy for
the situation. Probably just a normal day as a big city cop, until it
suddenly wasn't, due to the presence of iPhone video.

>
> But he's been over charged.

And that's a problem. Unless one takes the time to really delve into the
evidence, the jury verdict of "not guilty of second degree murder" next
summer is going to cause unfathomable riots and destruction. I live in the
metro here. Glad I'm armed.

>
> See Ben Shapiro on this:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7CwHIC9dTY
>
> I think it's also clear there is absolutely no evidence that racism
> had anything to do with it.

It's tough to find real racism anywhere (thankfully), yet people act like
we're on a plantation in the deep south in 1840.

>
> .John
> -----------------------
> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

[Bud]

How much force was Chauvin applying to Floyd`s neck? Are you sure?

> Kneeling on Floyd's throat for almost nine minutes
> while he is pleading that he can't breathe seems quite excessive to me.

Things are not always as they seem, that it *looks* bad isn`t the most
significant thing. If the strategy was to keep Floyd immobile until the
paramedics arrived then it worked perfectly.

> Even if Floyd's physical condition contributed to his demise, the question
> is still whether excessive force by Chauvin also contributed. If so,
> Chauvin is guilty as hell.

They used the forced necessary to subdue him and awaited the paramedics.

> > I`m sure there have been
> > many, many meth tweekers who died during their arrests because the
> > excitement coupled with the stimulant in their systems was more than their
> > heart could withstand.
>
> What were you saying about assuming what you need to show?

Well, this is the thing, you brought up the case of a guy hitting a
woman with a toy cane which did little damage, yet the guy went to jail
because she died. Now, to subdue a big strong guy like Floyd, you need a
hell of a lot more force than a toy cane swat. If any violence can push a
person over the edge due to existing medical conditions, and it requires a
great deal of force to subdue a resisting suspect, where does that leave
you? With cops hoping the person they have to arrest doesn`t die due to
the rigors of the arrest?

> You still want to make this about George Floyd. You are putting the victim
> on trial.

I`m looking at the available information surrounding this event. It
didn`t occur in a vacuum, and just because you say all focus has to be
fixed on Chauvin`s knee on Floyd`s neck, that doesn`t make it so.

> This is about Derek Chauvin's actions and that of the other
> officers invovled. If they acted illegally, either through negligence or
> recklessness and that contributed to Floyd's death, they are criminals.
> That is true even if Floyd was acting improperly.

As Chuck pointed out, it seems they acted according to their training,
using accepted procedures.

[Bud]

You assume the knee played a part in his inability to breathe and you
assume the removal of the knee would have made the situation better, or
increased Floyd chance of survival. But these are just assumptions, not
facts.

> Only a complete scumbag would continue using that technique even
> after being told the victim had no pulse. Chauvin belongs in jail with all
> the other scumbags. I hope he gets what he has coming to him.

You are coming from a place of emotion, like the scumbags tearing up the
streets.

[BOZ]

If you listen to the tape Pretty Boy Floyd says, "I can't breathe" while
he was standing up. Something happened to him while he was in a standing
position. Did COVID 19 weaken his lungs? Did the Fentanyl cause
respiratory depression while he was standing up?

[John Corbett]

I don't know how you guys can defend Chauvin's actions. Even his own
police union condemned his actions which is almost unheard of. Usually
police unions will go to the mat for their officers no matter what the
circumstance. The Chicago union continues to try defend Jason Van Dyke for
murdering Lacquan McDonald even after he has been convicted and sentence.
The Minneapolis union went on record as saying Chauvin's method of
restraint was not justified in that circumstance.

The union is objecting to the firing of the four officers involved because
of due process issues but it has not defended Chauvin's actions.

> > But he's been over charged.
> And that's a problem. Unless one takes the time to really delve into the
> evidence, the jury verdict of "not guilty of second degree murder" next
> summer is going to cause unfathomable riots and destruction. I live in the
> metro here. Glad I'm armed.

I would bet the jury will be given the option of several degrees of
homicide. Murder 2, Manslaughter 1, and Manslaughter 2. The won't be
forced to choose between Murder 2 and acquittal. That's how it works in
Ohio. When I sat on a jury, we were given the option of Murder 1, Murder
2, and Manslaughter. We settled on Murder 2 after three days of
deliberations with the only bone of contention being the level of crime we
would convict the accused of.

If seems to me the charge should be either Manslaughter 1 or Manslaughter
2. If I understand the Minnesota definition, it will depend on whether the
jury find's Chauvin's actions to be negligent or reckless. I lean toward
the latter. Had he not kept his knee on Floyd's throat even after being
told he had no pulse, I could see it being simply negligent but keeping
his knee there after that seems blatantly reckless to me.

[John Corbett]

He had his full weight over his knees and his hands were in his pockets.
It looks to me like most of the weight was on the knee that had Floyd
pinned.

> > Kneeling on Floyd's throat for almost nine minutes
> > while he is pleading that he can't breathe seems quite excessive to me.
> Things are not always as they seem, that it *looks* bad isn`t the most
> significant thing. If the strategy was to keep Floyd immobile until the
> paramedics arrived then it worked perfectly.

Yes, dead people are generally immobile. Maybe we should give Chauvin a
commendation for his police work.

> > Even if Floyd's physical condition contributed to his demise, the question
> > is still whether excessive force by Chauvin also contributed. If so,
> > Chauvin is guilty as hell.

> They used the forced necessary to subdue him and awaited the paramedics.

His own police union condemned Chauvin's actions which is almost unheard
of for a police union. Why are you guys still defending him?

> > > I`m sure there have been
> > > many, many meth tweekers who died during their arrests because the
> > > excitement coupled with the stimulant in their systems was more than their
> > > heart could withstand.
> >
> > What were you saying about assuming what you need to show?

> Well, this is the thing, you brought up the case of a guy hitting a
> woman with a toy cane which did little damage, yet the guy went to jail
> because she died. Now, to subdue a big strong guy like Floyd, you need a
> hell of a lot more force than a toy cane swat. If any violence can push a
> person over the edge due to existing medical conditions, and it requires a
> great deal of force to subdue a resisting suspect, where does that leave
> you? With cops hoping the person they have to arrest doesn`t die due to
> the rigors of the arrest?

There are other restraint options available that don't require you to
compress a man's neck who is telling you he can't breathe.

> > You still want to make this about George Floyd. You are putting the victim
> > on trial.
> I`m looking at the available information surrounding this event. It
> didn`t occur in a vacuum, and just because you say all focus has to be
> fixed on Chauvin`s knee on Floyd`s neck, that doesn`t make it so.

The only questions at trial will be whether Chauvin committed a homicide
and if so, what degree of homicide. Floyd's actions might be mitigating
factors which could influence the degree of homicide, but if the jury
determines Chauvin committed a homicide, the only way they could acquit
would be if they rule it a justifiable homicide. That would be a real
stretch.

> > This is about Derek Chauvin's actions and that of the other
> > officers invovled. If they acted illegally, either through negligence or
> > recklessness and that contributed to Floyd's death, they are criminals.
> > That is true even if Floyd was acting improperly.

> As Chuck pointed out, it seems they acted according to their training,
> using accepted procedures.

The Minneapolis police union has said they did not. The method of
restraint was not justified under the circumstance.

[John Corbett]

I'm not assuming anything. Common sense alone should tell you that if
someone is having difficulty breathing, the last think you should do is
put your knee on his throat.

> > Only a complete scumbag would continue using that technique even
> > after being told the victim had no pulse. Chauvin belongs in jail with all
> > the other scumbags. I hope he gets what he has coming to him.





> You are coming from a place of emotion, like the scumbags tearing up the
> streets.

You are coming from a place of denial.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 8/12/2020 8:36 PM, Bud wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 12, 2020 at 5:54:25 PM UTC-4, Anthony Marsh wrote:
>> On 8/11/2020 10:51 PM, BOZ wrote:

>>> On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 5:24:58 PM UTC-3, chucksch...@gmail.com wrote:

>>>> On Monday, August 10, 2020 at 6:04:09 PM UTC-5, Bud wrote:
>>>>> I hope that this is allowed, because it is just too good.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://youtu.be/XkEGGLu_fNU
>>>>>
>>>>> A few thoughts. It seems the cops were just holding him down until
>>>>> paramedics arrived. Strangely enough, no visible attempts were made to
>>>>> resuscitate by the medical folks that arrived. Also, it appears that Floyd
>>>>> tried to pass counterfeit money at another store, and they wouldn`t take
>>>>> it. He then went to the tobacco store. Kinda kills the idea that he
>>>>> accidentally passed phony money.
>>>>>
>>>>> This should have been made available on day one. Context matters.
>>>>
>>>>

>>>> And by far the best article on George Floyd. A must read. I know the
>>>> neighborhoods in Minneapolis that have been wrecked, and the devastation
>>>> is immense; much worse than what you see on television. When these cops
>>>> are found not guilty of second degree murder, the new riots will dwarf the
>>>> ones this spring/summer. Read below and be ready for the largest urban
>>>> riots in US history since the NYC riots during the Civil War that killed
>>>> 300 people:
>>>>
>>>> https://spectator.org/george-floyd-death-toxicology-report/
>>>

>>> Notice the Communist raised FISTS.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Oh, so you say rhat only comminists are allowed to raise fists?
>
> https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-WLGRe2-E5nw/Wr5Erzv17CI/AAAAAAAAMeI/V-SCgLccC2oCfwdzCGunzaOg3i7euSefwCLcBGAs/s1600/communist%2Bclenched%2Bfist%2Boswald_fist.jpg
>

The cop behind him was holding his right arm up by the elbow. But since
you are an expert on salutes let me ask you a question that stumpd my
friends last night. One is an expert on Japanese culture and he knew
exactly how far over each person must bow based on rank, but none of them
knew exactly how fare a Nazi is supposed to raise his arm and tilt his
hand. Do YOU know as our resident Nazi expert? I noticed that Hitler often
cheated and just barely lifted his palm.

[Anthony Marsh]

Did they kill anyone? Cops kill blacks all the time.

[Anthony Marsh]

Why do you have to shoot someone 100 times just to make sure he's dead?

[Anthony Marsh]

His only action was not being able to breathe.

> including drug use, the fault lies with Floyd. I`m sure there have been

Great tactic. So you say it was OK to assassinate JFK because he was
high on drugs? More of your adolescent BLAME THE VICTIM.

[ajohnstone]

As in the Arbery case, i find the underlying attitude of many here is that
both deaths should need not go to a jury to decide whether anyone is
guilty of any crime.

They want the guilt and innocence to be decided by video evidence where
the accused are not cross-examined and questioned. (They may well not be
if as they are under no legal requirement to take the stand)

We can all be amateur sleuths, but we require experts to challenge experts
when it comes to some evidence such as medical and ballistic.

I thought that would be very apparent to those who come to a website that
has to analyze the findings of forensic investigations and declare which
is the most reliable.

In both cases the video evidence is incomplete just as the Zapruder film
cannot fully determine what happened in 1963.

Wait until the trials and then decide if justice has been properly served.

And of course there will be appeals upon the verdicts and disagreements
on their validity - but at least you be arguing from a position of
substance and not supposition.

[John McAdams]

On 15 Aug 2020 03:34:49 -0000, ajohnstone <alanjjo...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

Do your comments apply to those who are marching and rioting, under
the assumption that the accused persons are guilty and the motive was
racism in both cases?

.John
-----------------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

[Anthony Marsh]

On 8/12/2020 9:13 PM, chucksch...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 12, 2020 at 4:54:22 PM UTC-5, Anthony Marsh wrote:

>> On 8/11/2020 4:24 PM, chucksch...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Monday, August 10, 2020 at 6:04:09 PM UTC-5, Bud wrote:
>>>> I hope that this is allowed, because it is just too good.
>>>>
>>>> https://youtu.be/XkEGGLu_fNU
>>>>
>>>> A few thoughts. It seems the cops were just holding him down until
>>>> paramedics arrived. Strangely enough, no visible attempts were made to
>>>> resuscitate by the medical folks that arrived. Also, it appears that Floyd
>>>> tried to pass counterfeit money at another store, and they wouldn`t take
>>>> it. He then went to the tobacco store. Kinda kills the idea that he
>>>> accidentally passed phony money.
>>>>
>>>> This should have been made available on day one. Context matters.
>>>
>>>
>>> And by far the best article on George Floyd. A must read. I know the
>>> neighborhoods in Minneapolis that have been wrecked, and the devastation
>>> is immense; much worse than what you see on television. When these cops
>>> are found not guilty of second degree murder, the new riots will dwarf the
>>> ones this spring/summer. Read below and be ready for the largest urban
>>> riots in US history since the NYC riots during the Civil War that killed
>>> 300 people:
>>>
>>> https://spectator.org/george-floyd-death-toxicology-report/
>>>
>>>
>>
>>

>> So you say it is OK to kill someone if you claim it was a bad person?
>
> We're saying the cop probably isn't guilty of second degree murder of
> George Floyd.
>
> Even you don't want to see an innocent man go to jail, do you?
>
>

inocent of what? I don't want to see a murderer go to jail for haywalking,
I want to see him go to jail for murder. I already said before that trying
to decide which crime to charge him with can be tricky.

[Anthony Marsh]

"It spite of"?
did you mean to type "In Spite of"?

> think sensible people are not far apart on this.
>

If so I think you are close.

But if you get too close, wear your mask and don't "spite."

> Yes, Chauvin was guilty of some misconduct, probably criminal
> misconduct.
>
> But he's been over charged.
>

Some prosecutors do that as a ploy to get the person to plead guilty
to a lesser charge.

> See Ben Shapiro on this:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7CwHIC9dTY
>
> I think it's also clear there is absolutely no evidence that racism
> had anything to do with it.
>

In which case? You mean when a white cop kills a vlack person?
So maybe it was accidental and he was aiming at the WHITE bank robber?
Maybe a case of a single bullet theory.

> .John
> -----------------------
> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
>

[Bud]

You see, things aren`t always as they appear, Chauvin`s hands aren`t in
his pockets, he is wearing black gloves against his black pants.

> It looks to me like most of the weight was on the knee that had Floyd
> pinned.

But was it? Can you tell how many pounds of pressure Chauvin is applying
to Floyd`s neck by looking at the video?

> > > Kneeling on Floyd's throat for almost nine minutes
> > > while he is pleading that he can't breathe seems quite excessive to me.
> > Things are not always as they seem, that it *looks* bad isn`t the most
> > significant thing. If the strategy was to keep Floyd immobile until the
> > paramedics arrived then it worked perfectly.
>
> Yes, dead people are generally immobile. Maybe we should give Chauvin a
> commendation for his police work.

Possible he deserves a commendation more than a conviction.

How many times do you suppose during an arrest a seemingly immobile
person on drugs fights his way to his feet? It could be their only job is
to keep Floyd under control until the medical personnel arrive.

I was just watching the tape again, and there is something that I think
shows this is a designed tactical procedure. Check 2:46 here...

https://youtu.be/t9Y2UJUhL74

The one cop says ... "You have hobble."

The other cop replies "Grabbing it."

Clearly this is a procedure they were *trained* to do.

> > > Even if Floyd's physical condition contributed to his demise, the question
> > > is still whether excessive force by Chauvin also contributed. If so,
> > > Chauvin is guilty as hell.
>
> > They used the forced necessary to subdue him and awaited the paramedics.
>
>
> His own police union condemned Chauvin's actions which is almost unheard
> of for a police union. Why are you guys still defending him?

He should have stood by Chauvin. This article has...

"It’s a different tone from a letter Kroll wrote to union
members days after Floyd’s death, in which he expressed support
for all four officers involved and said he was working with defense
lawyers and labor attorneys to “fight for their jobs. They were
terminated without due process.”

https://www.startribune.com/lt-bob-kroll-mpls-police-union-is-being-scapegoated-by-failed-leaders/571439422/

He started right and went wrong. He says “does look and sound
horrible” . Yes, it does, that doesn`t mean that Chauvin was at
fault.

And in context, people hate Chauvin and they are putting his face on
every member of his union. They were getting hit by bricks every day, he
might have felt the need to disassociate them from Chauvin to take the
heat off other cops.

> > > > I`m sure there have been
> > > > many, many meth tweekers who died during their arrests because the
> > > > excitement coupled with the stimulant in their systems was more than their
> > > > heart could withstand.
> > >
> > > What were you saying about assuming what you need to show?
>
> > Well, this is the thing, you brought up the case of a guy hitting a
> > woman with a toy cane which did little damage, yet the guy went to jail
> > because she died. Now, to subdue a big strong guy like Floyd, you need a
> > hell of a lot more force than a toy cane swat. If any violence can push a
> > person over the edge due to existing medical conditions, and it requires a
> > great deal of force to subdue a resisting suspect, where does that leave
> > you? With cops hoping the person they have to arrest doesn`t die due to
> > the rigors of the arrest?
>
> There are other restraint options available that don't require you to
> compress a man's neck who is telling you he can't breathe.

Like?

> > > You still want to make this about George Floyd. You are putting the victim
> > > on trial.
> > I`m looking at the available information surrounding this event. It
> > didn`t occur in a vacuum, and just because you say all focus has to be
> > fixed on Chauvin`s knee on Floyd`s neck, that doesn`t make it so.
>
> The only questions at trial will be whether Chauvin committed a homicide
> and if so, what degree of homicide.

There is such a thing as lawful homicide.

> Floyd's actions might be mitigating
> factors which could influence the degree of homicide, but if the jury
> determines Chauvin committed a homicide, the only way they could acquit
> would be if they rule it a justifiable homicide. That would be a real
> stretch.

Not if he followed the procedures he was trained to implement.

> > > This is about Derek Chauvin's actions and that of the other
> > > officers invovled. If they acted illegally, either through negligence or
> > > recklessness and that contributed to Floyd's death, they are criminals.
> > > That is true even if Floyd was acting improperly.
>
> > As Chuck pointed out, it seems they acted according to their training,
> > using accepted procedures.
>
> The Minneapolis police union has said they did not. The method of
> restraint was not justified under the circumstance.

Putting him down and getting him under control was perfect for the
situation.

[Bud]

He claimed to not be able to breathe before the knee was applied. The
knee wasn`t the cause of his breathing difficulties.

Baden said you can talk even if you can`t breathe. This is true to an
extent, I can recite the alphabet twice before running out of breath, but
if I can`t draw another breath I am spent. Chauvins says to Floyd, "You`re
doing a lot of talking." All that talking did indicate that Floyd was able
to draw breath.

> > > Only a complete scumbag would continue using that technique even
> > > after being told the victim had no pulse. Chauvin belongs in jail with all
> > > the other scumbags. I hope he gets what he has coming to him.
>
>
>
>
>
> > You are coming from a place of emotion, like the scumbags tearing up the
> > streets.
>
> You are coming from a place of denial.

I`m coming from a place of reality. You put cops out there that have to
deal with these situations, where they have to deal with big strong guys
on drugs, and you don`t recognize that any second of this arrest Floyd
could be throwing these cops around like rag dolls. The clubs were taken
away and the chokeholds were disallowed and now they are left with these
procedures to subdue. I suppose these will be disallowed now, leaving
harsh language. Floyd said he couldn`t breath, but continued talking the
entire time until he went unconscious. He also said he was claustrophobic,
but was removed from a vehicle.

[Bud]

I think the "A`s: coach had it right...

https://gvwire.com/2020/08/07/as-coach-apologizes-for-apparent-nazi-salute/

I suppose that he should have used your phony excuse that somebody
behind him caused him to react this way.

[Bud]

A lot of black kids are being shot and killed or wounded lately, any
idea who might be behind this rash of crime? I`ll give you a hint, it
ain`t the cops. But luckily only Some Lives Matter, you have to be a
career criminal resisting arrest, then your life suddenly becomes
significant.

[Bud]

You probably think they should shoot, then check for a pulse, and repeat
as necessary.

This video shows why they shoot so much...

WARNING: FATAL SHOOTING

https://youtu.be/aXpYqjKd8cE

[Bud]

That isn`t why they were arresting him.

> > including drug use, the fault lies with Floyd. I`m sure there have been
>
> Great tactic. So you say it was OK to assassinate JFK because he was
> high on drugs? More of your adolescent BLAME THE VICTIM.

The victims are the cops that have to deal with people like this.

[BOZ]

His hands were not in his pockets. The black gloves make it appear that
his hands were in his pockets.His left hand was on his thigh.

[BOZ]

That would work.

[John Corbett]

On Saturday, August 15, 2020 at 12:02:21 PM UTC-4, Bud wrote:
> On Friday, August 14, 2020 at 11:21:36 PM UTC-4, John Corbett wrote:
> > > On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 6:14:42 PM UTC-4, John Corbett wrote:

> > > > > He didn't kneel on his throat precisely so he COULD breathe. Watch the
> > > > > videos. Read the excellent article I linked to. The technique Chauvin used
> > > > > is actually TAUGHT to the MPD cops. I linked to the actual PowerPoint
> > > > > slides the MPD used for this training. Chauvin used an approved technique
> > > > > to restrain a suspect who is being unruly and/or suffering from a possible
> > > > > overdose and going through what I think they call excited delirium.
> > > >
> > > > A reasonable person would realize the technique should not be used on
> > > > someone who is having a medical emergency and is telling you he can't
> > > > breathe.
> >
> >
> >
> > > You assume the knee played a part in his inability to breathe and you
> > > assume the removal of the knee would have made the situation better, or
> > > increased Floyd chance of survival. But these are just assumptions, not
> > > facts.
> >
> >
> >
> > I'm not assuming anything. Common sense alone should tell you that if
> > someone is having difficulty breathing, the last think you should do is
> > put your knee on his throat.

> He claimed to not be able to breathe before the knee was applied. The
> knee wasn`t the cause of his breathing difficulties.
>

His breathing difficulties are exactly why the knee should not have been
applied at all. That was a reckless act.

> Baden said you can talk even if you can`t breathe. This is true to an
> extent, I can recite the alphabet twice before running out of breath, but
> if I can`t draw another breath I am spent. Chauvins says to Floyd, "You`re
> doing a lot of talking." All that talking did indicate that Floyd was able
> to draw breath.

When somebody says they can't breathe, they really mean they are having
difficulty breathing. According to reports, when Tim Russert had his fatal
heart attack, the last thing he said was, "I can't breathe.". Chauvin's
action of applying his knee to the throat of someone who was having a
medical emergency and was having trouble breathing was criminal.

> > > > Only a complete scumbag would continue using that technique even
> > > > after being told the victim had no pulse. Chauvin belongs in jail with all
> > > > the other scumbags. I hope he gets what he has coming to him.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > You are coming from a place of emotion, like the scumbags tearing up the
> > > streets.
> >
> > You are coming from a place of denial.

> I`m coming from a place of reality.

You are trying to create an alternate reality.

> You put cops out there that have to
> deal with these situations, where they have to deal with big strong guys
> on drugs, and you don`t recognize that any second of this arrest Floyd
> could be throwing these cops around like rag dolls.

Four armed cops should be able to handle one unarmed man. .

> The clubs were taken
> away and the chokeholds were disallowed and now they are left with these
> procedures to subdue.

The knee to the neck is a form of chokehold. It is a dangerous technique
and should be done away with.

> I suppose these will be disallowed now, leaving
> harsh language. Floyd said he couldn`t breath, but continued talking the
> entire time until he went unconscious. He also said he was claustrophobic,
> but was removed from a vehicle.

You are quibbling about the meaning of, "I can't breathe.". It is an
indication of a medical emergency. The knee to the neck was inexcusable
yet you keep trying to excuse it.

[chucksch...@gmail.com]

Innocent of the charge of second degree murder. Even YOU don't want to see
someone innocent of the charge of second degree murder be sent to prison,
right? Or is it just cops an Republicans that should go to prison when
they're innocent of second degree murder?

I don't want to see a murderer go to jail for haywalking,
> I want to see him go to jail for murder. I already said before that trying
> to decide which crime to charge him with can be tricky.

Perhaps the AG in Minnesota shouldn't have been so quick to charge them
with second degree murder. Here's the statute:

2019 Minnesota Statutes

609.19 MURDER IN THE SECOND DEGREE.
Subdivision 1.Intentional murder; drive-by shootings. Whoever does either
of the following is guilty of murder in the second degree and may be
sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 40 years:
(1) causes the death of a human being with intent to effect the death of
that person or another, but without premeditation; or

(2) causes the death of a human being while committing or attempting to
commit a drive-by shooting in violation of section 609.66, subdivision 1e,
under circumstances other than those described in section 609.185, paragraph
(a), clause (3).

§Subd. 2.Unintentional murders. Whoever does either of the following
is guilty of unintentional murder in the second degree and may be sentenced
to imprisonment for not more than 40 years:
(1) causes the death of a human being, without intent to effect the death
of any person, while committing or attempting to commit a felony offense
other than criminal sexual conduct in the first or second degree with force
or violence or a drive-by shooting; or

(2) causes the death of a human being without intent to effect the death
of any person, while intentionally inflicting or attempting to inflict
bodily harm upon the victim, when the perpetrator is restrained under an
order for protection and the victim is a person designated to receive
protection under the order. As used in this clause, "order for protection"
includes an order for protection issued under chapter 518B; a harassment
restraining order issued under section 609.748; a court order setting
conditions of pretrial release or conditions of a criminal sentence or
juvenile court disposition; a restraining order issued in a marriage
dissolution action; and any order issued by a court of another state or of
the United States that is similar to any of these orders.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

The cops may be guilty of something, but guilty on the charge of second
degree murder--based on the statutes--seems to be a stretch.

[John Corbett]

As if that is an important distinction. His hands weren't supporting any
of his weight. All of his weight , other than his lower legs, was
distributed between his two knees and it doesn'nt appear equally
distributed.

> > It looks to me like most of the weight was on the knee that had Floyd
> > pinned.

> But was it? Can you tell how many pounds of pressure Chauvin is applying
> to Floyd`s neck by looking at the video?

You can tell which way his body his leaning. It is toward the knee on the
throat.

> > > > Kneeling on Floyd's throat for almost nine minutes
> > > > while he is pleading that he can't breathe seems quite excessive to me.
> > > Things are not always as they seem, that it *looks* bad isn`t the most
> > > significant thing. If the strategy was to keep Floyd immobile until the
> > > paramedics arrived then it worked perfectly.
> >
> > Yes, dead people are generally immobile. Maybe we should give Chauvin a
> > commendation for his police work.
> Possible he deserves a commendation more than a conviction.

Not in the least.

>
> How many times do you suppose during an arrest a seemingly immobile
> person on drugs fights his way to his feet? It could be their only job is
> to keep Floyd under control until the medical personnel arrive.
>

Deadly force is not justified because you think somebody MIGHT become
violent. It can only be used when an actual threat is present.

> I was just watching the tape again, and there is something that I think
> shows this is a designed tactical procedure. Check 2:46 here...
>
> https://youtu.be/t9Y2UJUhL74
>
> The one cop says ... "You have hobble."
>
> The other cop replies "Grabbing it."
>
> Clearly this is a procedure they were *trained* to do.

Cops are trained to shoot too but that doesn't mean it is justified
whenever they are making an arrest. The are expected to use proper
judgement as to when the various things they are trained to do are
appropriate. They should be held accountable when they act
inappropriately.

> > > > Even if Floyd's physical condition contributed to his demise, the question
> > > > is still whether excessive force by Chauvin also contributed. If so,
> > > > Chauvin is guilty as hell.
> >
> > > They used the forced necessary to subdue him and awaited the paramedics.
> >

Killing him did effectively subdue him.

> >
> > His own police union condemned Chauvin's actions which is almost unheard
> > of for a police union. Why are you guys still defending him?
> He should have stood by Chauvin. This article has...
>
> "It’s a different tone from a letter Kroll wrote to union
> members days after Floyd’s death, in which he expressed support
> for all four officers involved and said he was working with defense
> lawyers and labor attorneys to “fight for their jobs. They were
> terminated without due process.”
>
> https://www.startribune.com/lt-bob-kroll-mpls-police-union-is-being-scapegoated-by-failed-leaders/571439422/
>

He was concerned about the lack of due process. At no time did he attempt
to justify their actions. On the contrary, he condemned them. The
president of the police union should be concerned about the lack of due
process. If the precedent is set that cops can be fired without due
process, the next case might not be one in which the wrongdoing is so
clear cut.

> He started right and went wrong. He says “does look and sound
> horrible” . Yes, it does, that doesn`t mean that Chauvin was at
> fault.

Now you are really stretching. It was ghastly horrible. Each time I watch
it, I think less and less of Derek Chavin. I guarantee you the prosecution
is going to want the jury to see all these videos. At most, the defense
will cherry pick just certain aspects.

>
> And in context, people hate Chauvin and they are putting his face on
> every member of his union.

Who is doing that. I do hate Chauvin. I don't transfer that hate to other
cops. I judge them all as individuals who are accountable for their own
actions. As for the other three officers invovled, their crimes seem to be
ones of omission. Whehter that is a crime under Minnesota law remains to
be seen.

> They were getting hit by bricks every day, he
> might have felt the need to disassociate them from Chauvin to take the
> heat off other cops.

More stretching. The actions have been almsot universally condemned by
cops all over the country. Fox's Dan Bongino, a former NYPD cop and Secret
Service agent, has been one of the most outspoken in condemning what
happened to Floyd.

https://www.foxnews.com/media/dan-bongino-video-george-floyd-arrest-disturbing

As Bongino observed, once the cuffs are on, the fight is over.

> > > > > I`m sure there have been
> > > > > many, many meth tweekers who died during their arrests because the
> > > > > excitement coupled with the stimulant in their systems was more than their
> > > > > heart could withstand.
> > > >
> > > > What were you saying about assuming what you need to show?
> >
> > > Well, this is the thing, you brought up the case of a guy hitting a
> > > woman with a toy cane which did little damage, yet the guy went to jail
> > > because she died. Now, to subdue a big strong guy like Floyd, you need a
> > > hell of a lot more force than a toy cane swat. If any violence can push a
> > > person over the edge due to existing medical conditions, and it requires a
> > > great deal of force to subdue a resisting suspect, where does that leave
> > > you? With cops hoping the person they have to arrest doesn`t die due to
> > > the rigors of the arrest?
> >
> > There are other restraint options available that don't require you to
> > compress a man's neck who is telling you he can't breathe.
> Like?

Like the handcuffs that were already holding Floyd's hands behind his
back. There was absolutely no need for the neck restraint.

> > > > You still want to make this about George Floyd. You are putting the victim
> > > > on trial.
> > > I`m looking at the available information surrounding this event. It
> > > didn`t occur in a vacuum, and just because you say all focus has to be
> > > fixed on Chauvin`s knee on Floyd`s neck, that doesn`t make it so.
> >
> > The only questions at trial will be whether Chauvin committed a homicide
> > and if so, what degree of homicide.
> There is such a thing as lawful homicide.
> > Floyd's actions might be mitigating
> > factors which could influence the degree of homicide, but if the jury
> > determines Chauvin committed a homicide, the only way they could acquit
> > would be if they rule it a justifiable homicide. That would be a real
> > stretch.

> Not if he followed the procedures he was trained to implement.

Just because he has been trained to use a technique does not make that
technique legal in any circumstance. The amount of force that cops use has
to be commensurate with the threat. Floyd was handcuffed and on the
ground. How much danger were the cops in at that point?

> > > > This is about Derek Chauvin's actions and that of the other
> > > > officers invovled. If they acted illegally, either through negligence or
> > > > recklessness and that contributed to Floyd's death, they are criminals.
> > > > That is true even if Floyd was acting improperly.
> >
> > > As Chuck pointed out, it seems they acted according to their training,
> > > using accepted procedures.
> >
> > The Minneapolis police union has said they did not. The method of
> > restraint was not justified under the circumstance.
> Putting him down and getting him under control was perfect for the
> situation.

They had him down and handcuffed and under control BEFORE Chauvin knelt on
his neck.

[David Von Pein]

JOHN CORBETT SAID:

He [Derek Chauvin] had his full weight over his knees and his hands were
in his pockets.


DAVID VON PEIN SAYS:

That's not correct. Chauvin's hands were never in his pockets. I thought
they were too initially, but it only looks that way in the Frazier
cell-phone video....

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2020/05/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1338.html#The-Hands-Of-Derek-Chauvin

[John Corbett]

That makes little difference. The point was his hands were not supporting
any of his weight which was entirely on his knees other than his lower
legs.

[Bud]

On Saturday, August 15, 2020 at 5:17:13 PM UTC-4, John Corbett wrote:
> On Saturday, August 15, 2020 at 12:02:21 PM UTC-4, Bud wrote:
> > On Friday, August 14, 2020 at 11:21:36 PM UTC-4, John Corbett wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 6:14:42 PM UTC-4, John Corbett wrote:
>
> > > > > > He didn't kneel on his throat precisely so he COULD breathe. Watch the
> > > > > > videos. Read the excellent article I linked to. The technique Chauvin used
> > > > > > is actually TAUGHT to the MPD cops. I linked to the actual PowerPoint
> > > > > > slides the MPD used for this training. Chauvin used an approved technique
> > > > > > to restrain a suspect who is being unruly and/or suffering from a possible
> > > > > > overdose and going through what I think they call excited delirium.
> > > > >
> > > > > A reasonable person would realize the technique should not be used on
> > > > > someone who is having a medical emergency and is telling you he can't
> > > > > breathe.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > You assume the knee played a part in his inability to breathe and you
> > > > assume the removal of the knee would have made the situation better, or
> > > > increased Floyd chance of survival. But these are just assumptions, not
> > > > facts.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I'm not assuming anything. Common sense alone should tell you that if
> > > someone is having difficulty breathing, the last think you should do is
> > > put your knee on his throat.
>
> > He claimed to not be able to breathe before the knee was applied. The
> > knee wasn`t the cause of his breathing difficulties.
> >
>
> His breathing difficulties are exactly why the knee should not have been
> applied at all. That was a reckless act.

No connection made between the knee and the breathing difficulties. You
assume the removal of the knee would have changed the situation.

> > Baden said you can talk even if you can`t breathe. This is true to an
> > extent, I can recite the alphabet twice before running out of breath, but
> > if I can`t draw another breath I am spent. Chauvins says to Floyd, "You`re
> > doing a lot of talking." All that talking did indicate that Floyd was able
> > to draw breath.
>
> When somebody says they can't breathe, they really mean they are having
> difficulty breathing. According to reports, when Tim Russert had his fatal
> heart attack, the last thing he said was, "I can't breathe.". Chauvin's
> action of applying his knee to the throat of someone who was having a
> medical emergency and was having trouble breathing was criminal.

Again, you are assuming a connection between the knee and the medical
difficulties. It could be the knee was seen by Chauvin as just a
precaution against Floyd attempting to get up, and no real threat to his
medical condition.

> > > > > Only a complete scumbag would continue using that technique even
> > > > > after being told the victim had no pulse. Chauvin belongs in jail with all
> > > > > the other scumbags. I hope he gets what he has coming to him.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > You are coming from a place of emotion, like the scumbags tearing up the
> > > > streets.
> > >
> > > You are coming from a place of denial.
>
> > I`m coming from a place of reality.
>
> You are trying to create an alternate reality.
>
> > You put cops out there that have to
> > deal with these situations, where they have to deal with big strong guys
> > on drugs, and you don`t recognize that any second of this arrest Floyd
> > could be throwing these cops around like rag dolls.
>
> Four armed cops should be able to handle one unarmed man. .

What difference does it make whether they are armed when they can`t use
their weapons?

Eric Garner threw the four cops that tried to arrest him around pretty
good, almost going through a plate glass window. The two cops who
attempted to arrest Rayshard Brooks in Atlanta had a hell of a time trying
to subdue him. Getting into a wrestling situation and hoping for the best
is not a good strategy. The best strategy is to get him subdued and keep
him subdued.

> > The clubs were taken
> > away and the chokeholds were disallowed and now they are left with these
> > procedures to subdue.
>
> The knee to the neck is a form of chokehold. It is a dangerous technique
> and should be done away with.

I think you mistake pinning with choking.

> > I suppose these will be disallowed now, leaving
> > harsh language. Floyd said he couldn`t breath, but continued talking the
> > entire time until he went unconscious. He also said he was claustrophobic,
> > but was removed from a vehicle.
>
> You are quibbling about the meaning of, "I can't breathe.". It is an
> indication of a medical emergency. The knee to the neck was inexcusable
> yet you keep trying to excuse it.

You keep focusing on it when it may be irrelevant.

[Bud]

Looking at the new video it is hard to tell, the camera is on a cop at
Floyd`s legs and there is a cop in between him and Chauvin. If the cop in
the middle had a camera this will be the best one to capture Chauvin`s
actions. Since this latest one was said to be "leaked", perhaps there will
be others, including possibly a camera from on Chauvin.

> > > It looks to me like most of the weight was on the knee that had Floyd
> > > pinned.
>
> > But was it? Can you tell how many pounds of pressure Chauvin is applying
> > to Floyd`s neck by looking at the video?
>
> You can tell which way his body his leaning. It is toward the knee on the
> throat.

You can`t tell the force down. You just can`t.

> > > > > Kneeling on Floyd's throat for almost nine minutes
> > > > > while he is pleading that he can't breathe seems quite excessive to me.
> > > > Things are not always as they seem, that it *looks* bad isn`t the most
> > > > significant thing. If the strategy was to keep Floyd immobile until the
> > > > paramedics arrived then it worked perfectly.
> > >
> > > Yes, dead people are generally immobile. Maybe we should give Chauvin a
> > > commendation for his police work.
> > Possible he deserves a commendation more than a conviction.
>
> Not in the least.

Maybe moreso than punishment, if he was acting according to his
training.

> >
> > How many times do you suppose during an arrest a seemingly immobile
> > person on drugs fights his way to his feet? It could be their only job is
> > to keep Floyd under control until the medical personnel arrive.
> >
>
> Deadly force is not justified because you think somebody MIGHT become
> violent.

Clearly they weren`t attempting to use deadly force.

> It can only be used when an actual threat is present.

Big strong guy like this is always a threat.

> > I was just watching the tape again, and there is something that I think
> > shows this is a designed tactical procedure. Check 2:46 here...
> >
> > https://youtu.be/t9Y2UJUhL74
> >
> > The one cop says ... "You have hobble."
> >
> > The other cop replies "Grabbing it."
> >
> > Clearly this is a procedure they were *trained* to do.
>
> Cops are trained to shoot too but that doesn't mean it is justified
> whenever they are making an arrest.

He was resisting arrest, what should they do? Say "Pretty please"?

> The are expected to use proper
> judgement as to when the various things they are trained to do are
> appropriate.

How was it inappropriate to subdue Floyd in this manner when he resisted
arrest?

> They should be held accountable when they act
> inappropriately.

Assumes they did.

This is the visceral reaction of almost everyone. It is difficult to
fight against this kind of emotionalism, but sometimes it needs to be
fought against.

But I came across this, which is supportive of your position. I`ll
include it here so people interested can get perhaps get a fuller
understanding of the autopsy (I did).

https://youtu.be/xRoqSyIi-98

Almost 20 minutes long, but a thorough breakdown of the event,
toxicology report and autopsy.

> I guarantee you the prosecution
> is going to want the jury to see all these videos. At most, the defense
> will cherry pick just certain aspects.

The parts that show why they acted like they did.

> >
> > And in context, people hate Chauvin and they are putting his face on
> > every member of his union.
>
> Who is doing that.

Do you own a TV?

You think a big guy like Floyd couldn`t struggle his way out of that
"control"?

[Bud]

Or we could run them down like they do in Norway...

https://youtu.be/zeQDsajtr7U

[BOZ]

Have you seen Egypt protests: diplomat's car runs over more than 20 people
in Cairo (28 Jan 2011)? Watch this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZec3vCttkw

[Bud]

What a coincidence, I just watched two other "run over" videos yesterday, both funny in their own way (both retributions to robbery). Some people may find them disturbing...

In the first video down under the title "I feel so much relief", a pair of
armed robbers stop a car at gunpoint and rob it. When they go to get on
their nearby motorcycle, the car just turns into them and violently rams
them.

https://www.reddit.com/r/JusticeServed/comments/32a7ms/liveleakcom_chaotic_fatal_brawl_and_shooting_at_a/

In this video, this guy`s "friend" set him up for robbery. The victim
got in his car afterwards and ran them down. I thought the cop`s deadpan
narrative of the event was funny, "In his terminology, he didn`t MEAN to
run those subjects over".

https://youtu.be/gGIuaXP1BrM

[John Corbett]

It is amazing the lengths you are going to in order to defend this
scumbag. The technique he was using is intended to restrict blood flow to
the brain. Of course he was going to put more weight on that knee. Doing
that for nine minutes makes the technique potentially deadly as it was in
this case.

A scumbag with a badge is still a scumbag and we have too many scumbags in
this country with badges and we need to remove them from the ranks of the
police and throw them in jail with the rest of the scumbags. The fact we
have people like you who are going to defend them no matter what they do
makes that much more difficult.

> > > > It looks to me like most of the weight was on the knee that had Floyd
> > > > pinned.
> >
> > > But was it? Can you tell how many pounds of pressure Chauvin is applying
> > > to Floyd`s neck by looking at the video?
> >
> > You can tell which way his body his leaning. It is toward the knee on the
> > throat.
> You can`t tell the force down. You just can`t.
> > > > > > Kneeling on Floyd's throat for almost nine minutes
> > > > > > while he is pleading that he can't breathe seems quite excessive to me.
> > > > > Things are not always as they seem, that it *looks* bad isn`t the most
> > > > > significant thing. If the strategy was to keep Floyd immobile until the
> > > > > paramedics arrived then it worked perfectly.
> > > >
> > > > Yes, dead people are generally immobile. Maybe we should give Chauvin a
> > > > commendation for his police work.
> > > Possible he deserves a commendation more than a conviction.
> >
> > Not in the least.
> Maybe moreso than punishment, if he was acting according to his
> training.

You're spewing bullshit. Cops are taught how to use various techniques and
also when. The when part is what was wrong about this. The restraint
method Chauvin used is intended to cut blood flow to the brain. You do
that for nine minutes there is a good chance you are going to kill
somebody. Chauvin's actions were clearly excessive under the
circumstance.

> > >
> > > How many times do you suppose during an arrest a seemingly immobile
> > > person on drugs fights his way to his feet? It could be their only job is
> > > to keep Floyd under control until the medical personnel arrive.

When handcuffed, not likely. If he did that, more force would be
justified, such as a taser.

> > >
> >
> > Deadly force is not justified because you think somebody MIGHT become
> > violent.
> Clearly they weren`t attempting to use deadly force.

Kneeling on someone's neck for nine minutes can be very deadly as it cuts
off blood flow to the brain.

> > It can only be used when an actual threat is present.

> Big strong guy like this is always a threat.

He was handcuffed. How much of a threat would he be to four armed cops.
You make it sound like they were arresting the Incredible Hulk.

> > > I was just watching the tape again, and there is something that I think
> > > shows this is a designed tactical procedure. Check 2:46 here...
> > >
> > > https://youtu.be/t9Y2UJUhL74
> > >
> > > The one cop says ... "You have hobble."
> > >
> > > The other cop replies "Grabbing it."
> > >
> > > Clearly this is a procedure they were *trained* to do.
> >
> > Cops are trained to shoot too but that doesn't mean it is justified
> > whenever they are making an arrest.
> He was resisting arrest, what should they do? Say "Pretty please"?

They should have handcuffed him and put him on the ground. Oh, wait. They
did that before they killed him. Just because a suspect is resisting
arrest doesn't justify a cop doing any damn thing he wants. Force has to
be commensurate with the threat. Once handcuffed and on the threat was
minimal.

Yes, most people get emotional when they see a cop murder a guy who was
already restrained and on the ground. Chauvin's actions were indefensible
which makes me wonder why you see fit to defend him.

> But I came across this, which is supportive of your position. I`ll
> include it here so people interested can get perhaps get a fuller
> understanding of the autopsy (I did).
>
> https://youtu.be/xRoqSyIi-98
>
> Almost 20 minutes long, but a thorough breakdown of the event,
> toxicology report and autopsy.
> > I guarantee you the prosecution
> > is going to want the jury to see all these videos. At most, the defense
> > will cherry pick just certain aspects.
> The parts that show why they acted like they did.

I have seen nothing in any of the videos that remotely justifies Chauvin
kneeling on Floyd's neck for almost nine minutes after he was already on
the ground and handcuffed. You have tried every angle to try to find some
justification for Chauvin and it is all pretty lame.

> > >
> > > And in context, people hate Chauvin and they are putting his face on
> > > every member of his union.
> >
> > Who is doing that.
> Do you own a TV?

I wouldn't call what I see on TV as putting Chauvin's face on every member
of the union.

His name was George Floyd, not Houdini. Of course he couldn't have
struggled out of those handcuffs.

[Bud]

Strange, this link doesn`t seem to work, but when I hit my the link in
my history the video comes up. Maybe youtube is cracking down on remote
linking. Here is the link again...

https://youtu.be/gGIuaXP1BrM

If it doesn`t work, anyone interested can find it on youtube under the
title "Police: 18-year-old victim runs over teen suspects after robbery".

[John Corbett]

I found this definition of the varying degrees of homicide under Minnesota
law and was considering starting a new thread but since John is already
granting us leeway by allowing this off topic discussion I decided not to
press it.

https://statelaws.findlaw.com/minnesota-law/minnesota-second-degree-murder.html#:~:text=Second-degree%20murder%20is%20an%20intentional%20killing%2C%20but%20is,of%20another%20felony%2C%20such%20as%20rape%20or%20burglary.

Originally I thought the charge of second degree murder was a stretch
because I don't believe Chauvin intended to kill Floyd but after reading
this I'm not so sure. If I understand this, second degree murder can be
unintentional if the homicide is committed during the commission of a
felony and since the prosecutor has charged Chauvin with felony assault,
the second degree murder charge could apply, even if there was no intent
to kill. This to me is the operable definition of second degree murder for
this case:

"Causing someone’s death without intending the death of anyone,
while committing a felony other than criminal sexual conduct (rape or
sexual assault which would be first-degree murder) or a drive-by
shooting.".

This definition would apply since Chauvin has been charged with felony
assault according to this NBC story:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/3-more-minneapolis-officers-charged-george-floyd-death-derek-chauvin-n1222796

Of course this is based on my layman's reading of the law which may or may
not be correct. The NBC story also confirms what I already believed. Keith
Ellison has charged Chauvin and the others with several levels of homicide
which will give the jury a laundry list of charges they could convict the
ex-cops of. They won't be forced to choose between second degree murder
and acquittal. They could acquit him on the second degree charge and still
convict him of third degree murder or manslaughter.

The jury's verdict might ultimately hinge on how they understand the
various definitions as the trial judge will present to them. In the murder
trial I sat on, we agreed early on the accused was guilty but we
deliberated for three days as to what degree of homicide. We were hung up
on the definition of "prior calculation" which is the necessary component
for aggravated murder (murder one) under Ohio law. We all heard the same
instructions and even asked the judge to repeat the definition of "prior
calculation" and still understood it differently. Myself and one other
woman did not think the element of prior calculation was present but the
ten others did because their understanding of the judge's instructions was
different from ours. We refused to budge and the others eventually gave in
and we convicted for murder (murder two).

[Anthony Marsh]

"A lot"? Another Trump phrase which means you can't point to anything
specific.

> idea who might be behind this rash of crime? I`ll give you a hint, it
> ain`t the cops. But luckily only Some Lives Matter, you have to be a

THe cops contribute to the numbers.
No one ever said that only some lives matter. Racists say "All Lives
Matter" to denigrate the Black Lives Matter movement.

> career criminal resisting arrest, then your life suddenly becomes
> significant.
>

Not all career criminals resist arrest and not everyone who resists
arrests is a criminal. Some cops lie when they kill a black person and
claim rhe person was resisting arrest.

http://bostonreview.net/race-law-justice/lisa-cacho-jodi-melamed-how-police-abuse-charge-resisting-arrest

[Anthony Marsh]

On 8/14/2020 11:21 PM, John Corbett wrote:
> On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 8:45:39 PM UTC-4, Bud wrote:
>> On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 6:14:39 PM UTC-4, John Corbett wrote:
>>> On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 10:43:45 AM UTC-4, Bud wrote:

>>>> On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 12:43:20 AM UTC-4, John Corbett wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 10:51:45 PM UTC-4, Bud wrote:

>>>>>> On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 4:24:58 PM UTC-4, chucksch...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Monday, August 10, 2020 at 6:04:09 PM UTC-5, Bud wrote:
>>>>>>>> I hope that this is allowed, because it is just too good.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://youtu.be/XkEGGLu_fNU
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A few thoughts. It seems the cops were just holding him down until
>>>>>>>> paramedics arrived. Strangely enough, no visible attempts were made to
>>>>>>>> resuscitate by the medical folks that arrived. Also, it appears that Floyd
>>>>>>>> tried to pass counterfeit money at another store, and they wouldn`t take
>>>>>>>> it. He then went to the tobacco store. Kinda kills the idea that he
>>>>>>>> accidentally passed phony money.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This should have been made available on day one. Context matters.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And by far the best article on George Floyd. A must read. I know the
>>>>>>> neighborhoods in Minneapolis that have been wrecked, and the devastation
>>>>>>> is immense; much worse than what you see on television. When these cops
>>>>>>> are found not guilty of second degree murder, the new riots will dwarf the
>>>>>>> ones this spring/summer. Read below and be ready for the largest urban
>>>>>>> riots in US history since the NYC riots during the Civil War that killed
>>>>>>> 300 people:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://spectator.org/george-floyd-death-toxicology-report/

>>>>>> Confirms a lot of things I was saying. Floyd might have died no matter
>>>>>> what the cops did.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You could say the same thing about any homicide victim.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "He might have died of a heart attack if I hadn't shot him six times.".
>>>

>>>> A bogus argument that assumes what you need to show, willful unlawful
>>>> murder.
>>>
>>> I don't have to prove anything. That will be the job of the prosecutor.
>>> For there to be a conviction, it does not have to be shown that Chauvin
>>> willfully murdered Floyd. If it is proven he acted either negligently or
>>> recklessly, manslaughter applies.
>>>
>>>> The arrest became a physical one because of Floyd`s actions. If
>>>> the physicality of the arrest exasperated existing physical conditions,
>>>> including drug use, the fault lies with Floyd.
>>>
>>> Even if all that is true, it does not give an arresting officer a license
>>> to do whatever he damn well pleases. If the force is excessive, the cop is
>>> criminally liable.
>
>> How much force was Chauvin applying to Floyd`s neck? Are you sure?
>
> He had his full weight over his knees and his hands were in his pockets.

> It looks to me like most of the weight was on the knee that had Floyd
> pinned.
>
>

>>> Kneeling on Floyd's throat for almost nine minutes
>>> while he is pleading that he can't breathe seems quite excessive to me.
>> Things are not always as they seem, that it *looks* bad isn`t the most
>> significant thing. If the strategy was to keep Floyd immobile until the
>> paramedics arrived then it worked perfectly.
>
> Yes, dead people are generally immobile. Maybe we should give Chauvin a
> commendation for his police work.
>
>
>

>>> Even if Floyd's physical condition contributed to his demise, the question
>>> is still whether excessive force by Chauvin also contributed. If so,
>>> Chauvin is guilty as hell.
>
>> They used the forced necessary to subdue him and awaited the paramedics.
>
>

> His own police union condemned Chauvin's actions which is almost unheard
> of for a police union. Why are you guys still defending him?
>
>

>>>> I`m sure there have been
>>>> many, many meth tweekers who died during their arrests because the
>>>> excitement coupled with the stimulant in their systems was more than their
>>>> heart could withstand.
>>>
>>> What were you saying about assuming what you need to show?
>
>> Well, this is the thing, you brought up the case of a guy hitting a
>> woman with a toy cane which did little damage, yet the guy went to jail
>> because she died. Now, to subdue a big strong guy like Floyd, you need a
>> hell of a lot more force than a toy cane swat. If any violence can push a
>> person over the edge due to existing medical conditions, and it requires a
>> great deal of force to subdue a resisting suspect, where does that leave
>> you? With cops hoping the person they have to arrest doesn`t die due to
>> the rigors of the arrest?
>
> There are other restraint options available that don't require you to
> compress a man's neck who is telling you he can't breathe.
>

>>> You still want to make this about George Floyd. You are putting the victim
>>> on trial.
>> I`m looking at the available information surrounding this event. It
>> didn`t occur in a vacuum, and just because you say all focus has to be
>> fixed on Chauvin`s knee on Floyd`s neck, that doesn`t make it so.
>
> The only questions at trial will be whether Chauvin committed a homicide

> and if so, what degree of homicide. Floyd's actions might be mitigating

> factors which could influence the degree of homicide, but if the jury
> determines Chauvin committed a homicide, the only way they could acquit
> would be if they rule it a justifiable homicide. That would be a real
> stretch.
>

>>> This is about Derek Chauvin's actions and that of the other
>>> officers invovled. If they acted illegally, either through negligence or
>>> recklessness and that contributed to Floyd's death, they are criminals.
>>> That is true even if Floyd was acting improperly.
>
>> As Chuck pointed out, it seems they acted according to their training,
>> using accepted procedures.
>
> The Minneapolis police union has said they did not. The method of
> restraint was not justified under the circumstance.
>

They are corrupt and racist.

[Anthony Marsh]

> "It???s a different tone from a letter Kroll wrote to union
> members days after Floyd???s death, in which he expressed support

> for all four officers involved and said he was working with defense

> lawyers and labor attorneys to ???fight for their jobs. They were
> terminated without due process.???
>
> https://www.startribune.com/lt-bob-kroll-mpls-police-union-is-being-scapegoated-by-failed-leaders/571439422/
>
> He started right and went wrong. He says ???does look and sound
> horrible??? . Yes, it does, that doesn`t mean that Chauvin was at

Why? Did they tell him he was under arrest? Did thy read him his Miranda
Rights? Got tape of that?

[Anthony Marsh]

>> "It???s a different tone from a letter Kroll wrote to union
>> members days after Floyd???s death, in which he expressed support

>> for all four officers involved and said he was working with defense

>> lawyers and labor attorneys to ???fight for their jobs. They were
>> terminated without due process.???

>>
>> https://www.startribune.com/lt-bob-kroll-mpls-police-union-is-being-scapegoated-by-failed-leaders/571439422/
>>
>
> He was concerned about the lack of due process. At no time did he attempt
> to justify their actions. On the contrary, he condemned them. The
> president of the police union should be concerned about the lack of due
> process. If the precedent is set that cops can be fired without due
> process, the next case might not be one in which the wrongdoing is so
> clear cut.
>

>> He started right and went wrong. He says ???does look and sound

>> horrible??? . Yes, it does, that doesn`t mean that Chauvin was at

Stop making sense. He'll think you're me!

[Anthony Marsh]

AFTER he was dead?

[Anthony Marsh]

Yes, I pointed that out a long time ago. But if I say it your buddies
don't beleive me. Whar about is right hand. Trying to balance himself.

[Anthony Marsh]

That's what I told you, but no one here pays attention.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 8/15/2020 4:00 PM, Bud wrote:

Which people? People like what?
You say the polilce are justified in killing people like you just for

[Anthony Marsh]

On 8/15/2020 4:00 PM, Bud wrote:

If you are going to come to our country and steal our money, you should
at least learn to read English.

It clearly says "Armed Suspect ." Do you understand what that means?

[Anthony Marsh]

It may be restricted to Adults.

[Anthony Marsh]

Ever hear of Jury Nullification??

[BOZ]

Leftwing lives don't matter. Take them to Devil's Island and let them kill
each other off.

[Bud]

Why do you do this to yourself? Just here in Philly...

10 days ago a seven year old was shot and killed...


https://6abc.com/3-men-charged-with-murder-in-shooting-death-of-7-year-old/6357360/

Eight days ago a six year old girl was shot...


https://6abc.com/girl-shot-philly-west-shooting-philadelphia-in/6356612/

Six days ago an eleven year old boy was shot...


https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/boy-11-grazed-by-bullets-as-more-gunfire-erupts-in-philadelphia/2496120/

Yesterday, three teens were shot...


https://6abc.com/5-injured-during-block-party-shootout-in-philly/6372537/

> > idea who might be behind this rash of crime? I`ll give you a hint, it
> > ain`t the cops. But luckily only Some Lives Matter, you have to be a
>
> THe cops contribute to the numbers.

So does lightning.

> No one ever said that only some lives matter. Racists say "All Lives
> Matter" to denigrate the Black Lives Matter movement.

I call Black Live Matter a terrorist organization to accurately
characterize them.

> > career criminal resisting arrest, then your life suddenly becomes
> > significant.
> >
>
> Not all career criminals resist arrest and not everyone who resists
> arrests is a criminal. Some cops lie when they kill a black person and
> claim rhe person was resisting arrest.
>
> http://bostonreview.net/race-law-justice/lisa-cacho-jodi-melamed-how-police-abuse-charge-resisting-arrest

Leftist trash.

[Bud]

I was merely trying to cure your ignorance about why cops shoot so many
times.

[chucksch...@gmail.com]

Did you read the excellent American Spectator article by George Parry that
I linked to earlier?

https://spectator.org/george-floyd-death-toxicology-report/

Did you see the MPD PowerPoint presentation? (Slide 26.)

http://www.mncourts.gov/mncourtsgov/media/High-Profile-Cases/27-CR-20-12951-TKL/Exhibit67807072020.pdf

One of the bullet points from slide 26 states that the police are to
"Place the subject in the RECOVERY POSITION [my emphasis] to alleviate to
alleviate positional asphyxia."

Chauvin has his knee on Floyd's neck exactly as he was TRAINED to do so as
to keep Floyd from thrashing about and hurting himself or others. They're
not trying to KILL him...they're trying to keep him calm and are rendering
assistance as they were TRAINED to do. (The PowerPoint presentation makes
this abundantly clear.)

This is the single bullet theory of the whole case, to bring it back to
the JFK assassination. Once the average buff "buys" that CE 399 pierced
JFK and JBC, belief in a JFK conspiracy fades away. Once you George Floyd
"buffs" understand that the MPD was training cops this method of restraint
in situations involving what cops call "excited delirium", then the charge
of Chauvin a heartless "murderer" fades away, too.

Floyd died of a drug overdose. The autopsy report (SCIENCE!) makes this
clear. He was screaming that he couldn't breathe and was going to die
BEFORE being placed in the recovery position by the cops. The last day of
Floyd's life was also the worst day of Chauvin's life. He had the
misfortune of correctly following the training protocol he'd received and
having iPhone Social Justice Warriors upload the footage to YouTube.

Fortunately, we do not convict someone for second degree murder based on
YouTube videos. (Yet.) Unfortunately, there are those that will tear the
country apart based on those same videos, and will refuse to hear the
other side of the story.

Heaven help us.

[John Corbett]

No one is denying Floyd had recreational drugs in his system and no one is
claiming Floyd was acting properly. Chauvin's actions were improper to the
point of being criminal. A choke hold is not the proper response for
someone having a medical emergency and is telling you he can't breathe.
Chauvin had nine minutes to consider alternatives yet he continued to
press his knee against Floyd's neck well after Floyd had lost
consciousness.

> Did you see the MPD PowerPoint presentation? (Slide 26.)
>
> http://www.mncourts.gov/mncourtsgov/media/High-Profile-Cases/27-CR-20-12951-TKL/Exhibit67807072020.pdf
>
> One of the bullet points from slide 26 states that the police are to
> "Place the subject in the RECOVERY POSITION [my emphasis] to alleviate to
> alleviate positional asphyxia."
>

Recovery position? That's a nice euphemism for a choke hold.

> Chauvin has his knee on Floyd's neck exactly as he was TRAINED to do so as
> to keep Floyd from thrashing about and hurting himself or others.

If he was just following training, why did his own police union condemn
his actions?

> They're
> not trying to KILL him...they're trying to keep him calm and are rendering
> assistance as they were TRAINED to do. (The PowerPoint presentation makes
> this abundantly clear.)
>

Right. That's why Chauvin kept the pressure on Floyd's neck for almost 3
minutes after being told Floyd had no pulse.

> This is the single bullet theory of the whole case, to bring it back to
> the JFK assassination. Once the average buff "buys" that CE 399 pierced
> JFK and JBC, belief in a JFK conspiracy fades away. Once you George Floyd
> "buffs" understand that the MPD was training cops this method of restraint
> in situations involving what cops call "excited delirium", then the charge
> of Chauvin a heartless "murderer" fades away, too.
>
> Floyd died of a drug overdose. The autopsy report (SCIENCE!) makes this
> clear.

The autopsy report ruled it was a homicide. Are you going to steal a page
from Marsh's book and pretend your opinion outweighs his.

> He was screaming that he couldn't breathe and was going to die
> BEFORE being placed in the recovery position by the cops. The last day of
> Floyd's life was also the worst day of Chauvin's life.

I hope it was Chauvin's worst day so far.

> He had the
> misfortune of correctly following the training protocol he'd received and
> having iPhone Social Justice Warriors upload the footage to YouTube.
>

Cops have to use sound judgement in using the things they are trained to
do. They are trained to shoot but that doesn't mean they are justified in
shooting someone whenever they are making and arrest. Placing your knee on
somebody's neck who is in the throes of a medical emergency and telling
you he can't breathe is criminal.

> Fortunately, we do not convict someone for second degree murder based on
> YouTube videos. (Yet.) Unfortunately, there are those that will tear the
> country apart based on those same videos, and will refuse to hear the
> other side of the story.
>
> Heaven help us.

Unfortunately, we don't convict rotten cops often enough because there are
too many people who will automatically side with the cop not matter what.

[BT George]

I have no problem with the initial actions taken by the cops, but I also
maintain there simply cab be no defense of maintaining a knee on the neck
of someone complaining about not being able to breath and becoming
obviously, and increasingly, non responsive.

Chauvin's actions call for both disapproval and punishment. But the
selective political outrage and *excuse* to advance a violent agenda of
social justice change and outright condoning lawlessness in the
process---while blackballing law enforcement as a whole is a travesty.

The madness of "defunding" police, and making an environment where law
enforcement will be second guessed and condemned every time they have a
violent encounter with a minority is going to wind up costing the public
in general and poor Americans in particular. Whether they are white,
black, brown, polka-dotted, or resemble one-eyed-one-horned flying purple
people eaters.

[John Corbett]

All I will say to that is each case must be judged individually on its own
merits. In some cases the cops are out of line and in some cases their
actions are justified. We must hold them accountable when they are out of
line. As long as cops act within the law and under the policies of their
departments, they should have nothing to fear.