Purchasing Guns In Texas In The Early 1960s
David Von Pein
http://EducationForum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=16235&st=150&p=202210&#entry202210
DVP SAID:
What I want to see is the proof that shows that the conspiracy theorists
are correct when they continually say that Oswald could have walked into
any gun store in Texas in '63 and bought a gun without any paperwork being
involved at all.
I don't think that has been proven. And the statements from various gun
shop owners who provided information to the Warren Commission (or the FBI)
would certainly indicate that at least SOME gun shop owners DID keep
records of the people to whom they sold firearms in 1963.
I'm guessing that (in large part) this whole business about buying a gun
in a gun shop without leaving a trace, which is promoted in Oliver Stone's
fantasy movie as well, is probably nothing more than yet another in a long
line of conspiracy myths foisted on the public since JFK's assassination.
NOTE -- To protect myself from future abuse by the Anybody-But-Oswald
conspiracy theorists on the Internet, I will conclude this message with
this addendum: I could be wrong about the last paragraph I just wrote
above concerning the topic of buying guns in gun stores in 1963.
DVP THEN LATER SAID:
Relating to my comments above, I received the following e-mail from
Gary Mack:
Date: 8/17/2010 1:57:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From: Gary Mack
To: David Von Pein
--------------------
Dave,
Regarding the purchase of weapons in Texas in the early 60s, Federal
regulations required retailers to keep a log of all such sales. For
example, Ray's Hardware in Dallas still has their January 19, 1960 log
showing the revolver bought by Jack Ruby (but paid for by police detective
Joe Cody, one of Ruby's friends). One of the folks at Ray's told me long
ago that they must keep such records.
Gary
David Von Pein
Follow-up:
Date: 8/17/2010 3:18:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From: David Von Pein
To: Gary Mack
----------------------
Hi again Gary,
Earlier today, you said this:
"Ray's Hardware in Dallas still has their January 19, 1960 log showing
the revolver bought by Jack Ruby (but paid for by police detective Joe
Cody, one of Ruby's friends). One of the folks at Ray's told me long
ago that they must keep such records."
Question:
Can you tell me if Ray's records from that 1/19/60 revolver purchase
positively show the name of "Joe Cody" as the purchaser of the
revolver that ended up in the hands of Jack Ruby on 11/24/63?
Thank you.
David V.P.
=========================================================
Date: 8/17/2010 4:42:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From: Gary Mack
To: David Von Pein
---------------------
They do not, they show only Ruby's name. I have seen a scan of the
record which was sent to me by Ray's Hardware. Cody has spoken about
it many times over the years including, as I recall, in the Museum's
oral history.
It was quite legal and, since Joe was a cop, he could purchase the gun
without having to pay sales tax, thus saving Ruby a few dollars. But
Ruby was listed as the purchaser, and Federal law, from what Ray's
told me, requires gun dealers to keep that record.
Gary
=========================================================
David Von Pein
Follow-up #2:
Date: 8/17/2010 10:06:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From: Gary Mack
To: David Von Pein
-----------------------
Hi Dave,
Smear Gary Mack at all costs! McCarthyism is alive and well in Buff World.
Anyway, in case you had even the tiniest doubt, take a look at this
11/24/63 FBI doc which references a visit with Ray Brantley who actually
checked his records. That page is the same page I saw some 35 years
later. Yes, gun dealers did keep records of who received guns:
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh26/html/WH_Vol26_0268a.htm
And there's also this obit story mentioning the gun transaction:
I may not bat 100%, but I do OK.
Gary
Ace Kefford
I appreciate your work. I do not have any information on requirements
of Texas law and U.S. Federal law as it applied to Texas at that time.
But with the "Craig's List Killer" in the news currently for his
suicide, I will note that I read that he bought his gun in New
Hampshire where apparently he used a fake New York driver's license
and fake evidence of residence in New Hampshire to avoid giving his
actual identity and cut out any waiting period.
If that can be done now, I would guess that back in 1963 in Texas and
any other state you could easily buy a gun and just give a fake name
or present a fake ID (which we know Oswald had). Plus of course not
all sellers care that much about valid ID, as any underage youth
looking to buy beer or ciggies can attest.
Like I said, just "guessing" that was possible, and I too would be
interested in knowing the actual realities of Louisiana and Texas law
back then, both in terms of the letter of the law and the actual
process.
But what the critics miss in Oswald not being as clever as he could
have been is that Oswald was not some fictional "master criminal." He
was a mentally ill person, prone to rash decisions, and one who
habitually lied.
Ace K.
On Aug 17, 10:03 pm, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:
> http://EducationForum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=16235&st=150&p=...
Anthony Marsh
> David,
>
> I appreciate your work. I do not have any information on requirements
> of Texas law and U.S. Federal law as it applied to Texas at that time.
>
> But with the "Craig's List Killer" in the news currently for his
> suicide, I will note that I read that he bought his gun in New
> Hampshire where apparently he used a fake New York driver's license
> and fake evidence of residence in New Hampshire to avoid giving his
> actual identity and cut out any waiting period.
>
> If that can be done now, I would guess that back in 1963 in Texas and
> any other state you could easily buy a gun and just give a fake name
> or present a fake ID (which we know Oswald had). Plus of course not
> all sellers care that much about valid ID, as any underage youth
> looking to buy beer or ciggies can attest.
>
Yes, Oswald could have done that, but he was paranoid about being followed
around by the FBI and could not risk being remembered by the clerk if the
FBI asked who was the only person to buy a Mannlicher-Carcano.
David Von Pein
>>> "I appreciate your work." <<<
Thank you, Ace. But I didn't do any of the work on this at all. (Except
for adding in a link to one more Commission Exhibit, which talks about
Mrs. Brantley, which was just one page away from the one Gary Mack
provided.)
But Gary Mack deserves the thanks. He e-mailed me certain information, and
then I copy his e-mails to the forum (for "FYI" purposes).
And Jean Davison deserves thanks too, for the things she talked about in
other threads regarding this topic about buying guns.
But now, on The Edu. Forum, some people are off on a "Cody/Ruby" tangent,
implying that since Cody apparently was associated in some way with
various underworld bigshots, this ties Ruby into the assassination plot,
via his friendship with Policeman Joe Cody.
A never-ending cycle of theories, isn't it?
David Von Pein
Addendum:
When I said in my earlier post that I provided another Commission
exhibit to bolster the Brantley/Gun Shop topic, I meant the one linked
at the bottom of this acj post (which didn't make it into my aaj
version of the post):
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/0a7d8837d87d0a67
David Von Pein
RELATED E-MAIL FROM GARY MACK (RE: THE LENGTH OF THE RIFLES KLEIN'S
WAS SELLING THROUGHOUT THE YEAR 1963):
Date: 8/18/2010 3:28:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From: Gary Mack
To: David Von Pein
--------------------
Dave,
Thanks to The Sixth Floor Museum’s collection, today I examined all
1963 issues of the American Rifleman and here is what I found:
Jan 63 -- p. 61 -- 36” “6.5 Italian Carbine” -- $12.88 -- $19.95 (with
scope)
Feb 63 -- p. 65 -- Same ad as above
Mar 63 -- No ad
Apr 63 -- p. 55 -- 40” “6.5 Italian Carbine” -- $12.88 -- $19.95 (with
scope)
May 63 -- Missing pp. 63-66
Jun 63 -- p. 59 -- 40” “6.5 Italian Carbine” -- $12.88 -- $19.95 (with
scope)
Jul 63 -- p. 67 -- 40” “6.5 Italian Carbine” -- $12.78 -- $19.95 (with
scope)
Aug 63 -- p. 79 -- Same ad as above
Sep 63 -- p. 89 -- Same ad as above
Oct 63 -- p. 85 -- Same ad as above
Nov 63 -- No ad
Dec 63 -- No ad
So as I suggested earlier, Oswald ordered the 36” rifle but, probably
due to Klein’s running out of stock, he received the 40” model
instead. The price remained the same, so Klein’s may have just sent
him the newly available model instead. They would certainly accept a
return if he didn’t want it.
The Museum’s copy of the May 1963 issue is missing four pages and,
since Klein’s ads normally ran in the back half of the magazine, it
was likely on one of those pages. But as you can see, the ad for the
months before and after May showed the exact same 40” rifle.
I don’t know when the American Rifleman normally went to press, but I
would think they’d want the new issue to appear on the newsstands and
in subscriber’s mailboxes at or shortly before the beginning of each
month. That would mean all ad copy must be ready and in the hands of
the publisher at least 30 days ahead of time, maybe more.
If Klein’s ran out of 36” rifles in January, they might not even have
enough time to get a corrected ad in by the March deadline. Maybe
that’s why there was no ad in the March issue? Perhaps Klein’s sold
out of the Carcano and other weapons and just couldn’t update their
new ad before the deadline?
Gary Mack
bigdog
> http://EducationForum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=16235&st=150&p=...
>
One thing that gets overlooked in this discussion is the political
realities of gun laws. The gun control lobby has never had the political
might to instigate national gun registration. It is politically viable in
some blue states, but never on a national basis. The federal government
has never been allowed to maintain a database of gun purchases. It is left
to the gun dealers to maintain records of gun sales at their
establishments, but there is no central repository of gun purchase
records. The Brady bill required background checks on all gun purchases
which was soon followed by a system of instant background checks which
allowed gun purchasers to take home a gun the same day they applied for
it. In order to get enough support for the Brady bill to pass, a provision
was put in it which required the federal government to destroy records of
gun purchase applications. If the federal government was allowed to
maintain such records, it would have amounted to defacto gun registration,
something that was not and has never been politically viable. During the
Clinton administration, Janet Reno tried to keep just such a database of
gun purchases on file for up to six month in defiance of the law. This
policy was reversed by John Ashcroft who ordered that records of cleared
gun purchase applications be destroyed within 24 hours, bringin the
federal government into compliance with the law.
As things stand now, and as they have been for a long time, gun dealers
are required to maintain a log of gun purchases made through their
establishments and those records must be kept permanently. If a dealer
goes out of business, the log must be turned over to BATFE. If the police
find a gun which they believe was used in a crime, they can trace it by
its serial number back to the manufacturer who in turn can tell them which
gun dealer it was distributed to. That dealer can then check his records
to determine who the original purchaser was. This system allows police to
trace weapons which they suspect were used in commision of a crime without
the need for the federal government to maintain a gun registration
database.
curtjester1
If 'he' was so paranoid, why then would he go to a gun shop in Irving to
have holes drilled for a scope? Seems like 'he' was anything but
cautious.
If there was paperwork to be had at a local gunshop, think how much more
there would have been for mail order from both ends the mail order company
and the Post Office. The paper trail was extremely exacting. For this
JFK/Rifle scenario, there was exactly NONE on both sides.
CJ
Anthony Marsh
He didn't. The rifle already came with the scope installed.
> If there was paperwork to be had at a local gunshop, think how much more
> there would have been for mail order from both ends the mail order company
> and the Post Office. The paper trail was extremely exacting. For this
> JFK/Rifle scenario, there was exactly NONE on both sides.
>
The paper trail was in his aliase.
> CJ
>
Anthony Marsh
You also have to remember the effect of technology. You used to need
several days to do a background check. Now you can do it online in 10
seconds.
Anthony Marsh
>
> RELATED E-MAIL FROM GARY MACK (RE: THE LENGTH OF THE RIFLES KLEIN'S
> WAS SELLING THROUGHOUT THE YEAR 1963):
>
>
Thanks. I've uploaded scans of some of those ads.
What I'd also like to see is the corresponding Dept number used in each
ad for the ordering address.
Yes, but is it consumer fraud or an allowable substitution or an upgrade
to a better model?
> The Museum’s copy of the May 1963 issue is missing four pages and,
> since Klein’s ads normally ran in the back half of the magazine, it
> was likely on one of those pages. But as you can see, the ad for the
> months before and after May showed the exact same 40” rifle.
>
> I don’t know when the American Rifleman normally went to press, but I
> would think they’d want the new issue to appear on the newsstands and
> in subscriber’s mailboxes at or shortly before the beginning of each
> month. That would mean all ad copy must be ready and in the hands of
> the publisher at least 30 days ahead of time, maybe more.
>
> If Klein’s ran out of 36” rifles in January, they might not even have
> enough time to get a corrected ad in by the March deadline. Maybe
> that’s why there was no ad in the March issue? Perhaps Klein’s sold
> out of the Carcano and other weapons and just couldn’t update their
> new ad before the deadline?
>
> Gary Mack
>
Gary is on the right track, but Klein's didn't have to advertise the
same products in the same publications every month. They could also
advertise in other publications and spread out the costs.
Either way Klein's knew it was running out of the carbines in late January.
bigdog
>
> - Show quoted text -
There would be a paper trail no matter how Oswald bought the rifle. He
could have used an alias whether purchasing mail order or in person.
Ace Kefford
I meant your work generally, not specific to this.
Ace K.
Anthony Marsh
Prove it.
David Von Pein
>>> "David, I meant your work generally, not specific to this." <<<
Oh.
Well, in that case--thank you very much. :)
curtjester1
>
CIA folks have papertrails? He could have bought if from a friend of a
friend or a perfect stranger. He could have stole one just like his
buddies down in N.O. stole from the Armory. He wouldn't have gone the
most visual ways of getting caught if he was serious about committing a
crime and getting away with it.
CJ
Bill Kelly
That Joe Cody was pals with Ruby and Campisis is no theory, but a fact
he states and
acknowledges himself, both on film in documentaries and on record.
Gary Mack says
he has an oral history with Cody, and maybe next time DVP is at the
Sixth Floor
he can get a copy of that and post it for all of us to read.
In addition, despite the fact that Ray's Hardware kept a record of
the sale of the gun
to Ruby (via Cody), it is Gary Mack's surmising that they did so
because of a federal
law made them keep such records, when in fact they did so because they
were just
good businesmen and not because they had to do it.
No record of the name of the buyer had to be maintained by the seller,
and in most cases,
no such records were kept at that time in Texas.
Which brings us back to the original question of why Oswald didn't
just buy one of the
MC rifles from Green's in Dallas, with cash and no record of his
identification, instead of
going through the mails with the alias, money order and Post Office
box?
Bill Kelly
bigdog
Are you claiming that people who commit crimes with guns never buy
their guns through legal means?
Jean Davison
But how do you know that, Bill?
>
> No record of the name of the buyer had to be maintained by the seller,
> and in most cases,
> no such records were kept at that time in Texas.
How do you know this was true "in most cases"?
>
> Which brings us back to the original question of why Oswald didn't
> just buy one of the
> MC rifles from Green's in Dallas, with cash and no record of his
> identification, instead of
> going through the mails with the alias, money order and Post Office
> box?
Green's took "names and addresses of the persons to whom sold,"
according to this FBI document:
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=693820
As to why Oswald chose mail order, only he could tell you
that.
Jean
bigdog
>
> As to why Oswald chose mail order, only he could tell you
> that.
>
> - Show quoted text -
The question of whether there would have been a record of the purchase
if Oswald had purchased the rifle locally becomes moot when you
consider when he bought the rifle. He purchased the rifle the previous
spring. We have no way of knowing whether he bought it specifically to
shoot General Walker or with no specific purpose. He could not have
had any way of knowing he would get the opportunity to assassinate JFK
from his workplace. So why would he care if there would be a record of
the purchase or not. A gun is only traceable if the police have it in
their possession. Even if Oswald had been successful in his attempt on
Walker's life, the police would have had no more information than they
had for the unsuccessful attempt. They could only have known that it
was a 6.5mm gun that fired the shot. They would have no idea which
6.5mm rifle fired it. They would have no idea of the make or model or
the rifle. They would not known if it had been purchased locally or
out of state. They would not know if it had been purchased recently or
not. They would have known exactly what they knew for the unsuccessful
attempt which was not much at all. The issue of traceability of the
gun only became an issue when Oswald used it in a situation where he
was forced to leave the weapon at the scene of the crime. Of course,
Oswald could not have possibly known at the time he bought the rifle
that he would be in that situation, so why would he even bother to
consider whether or not there would be a record of the purchase.
Anthony Marsh
False premise. He was not intending that early to assassinate the
President so your construction is false. However was was planning to
kill General Walker so he would not want the weapon traced back to him.
> their possession. Even if Oswald had been successful in his attempt on
> Walker's life, the police would have had no more information than they
> had for the unsuccessful attempt. They could only have known that it
Almost correct. Certainly the DPD was not smart enough to even figure out
what type of bullet it was and thus what type of rifle. But they didn't
care much because it missed. If Walker had been killed then maybe someone
might have cared, maybe even the FBI to consult on the evidence and figure
out that only one man had bought a Mannlicher-Carcano in the Dallas area.
> was a 6.5mm gun that fired the shot. They would have no idea which
> 6.5mm rifle fired it. They would have no idea of the make or model or
> the rifle. They would not known if it had been purchased locally or
That particular bullet and ammo was made specifically and only for the
Mannlicher-Carcano by contract.
Jean Davison
Very good point, Bigdog. Thanks.
Jean
Peter Fokes
wrote:
>We have no way of knowing whether he bought it specifically to
>> shoot General Walker or with no specific purpose.
Marina told the WC that Oswald told her he had been planning the
Walker shooting for 2 months. Thus, we know he ordered the rifle
after he had already started thinking about shooting Walker.
Wouldn't it have been simpler to pay cash for the weapon, and hope the
person who sold it to him did not remember or recognize him if
questionned?
PF
bigdog
> On 20 Aug 2010 21:25:33 -0400, Jean Davison <jean.davis...@gmail.com>
It wouldn't be an issue unless the police were able to recover the
weapon. As long as Oswald took the weapon with him after the shooting,
as he did, the police would have no way of knowing which weapon was
used, or where or when it was purchased. The only way the weapon is
traceable is if the police have it in their possession. That would be
true no matter where Oswald chose to buy his weapon or how he paid for
it. Theoretically, the DPD might search the records of local gun
dealers to see how many 6.5mm rifles had been sold in recent months,
but it would be like looking for a needle in a haystack and not even
knowing which haystack to search.
Anthony Marsh
> On 20 Aug 2010 21:25:33 -0400, Jean Davison<jean.d...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> We have no way of knowing whether he bought it specifically to
>>> shoot General Walker or with no specific purpose.
>
>
> Marina told the WC that Oswald told her he had been planning the
> Walker shooting for 2 months. Thus, we know he ordered the rifle
> after he had already started thinking about shooting Walker.
>
Maybe his original plan was to use a handgun to kill Walker, but there
were always too many boyfriends hanging around his house who could
prevent him from getting off a clear shot.
> Wouldn't it have been simpler to pay cash for the weapon, and hope the
> person who sold it to him did not remember or recognize him if
> questionned?
>
> PF
>
>
>
He couldn't take that chance. He though the FBI was following him around.
Coondog
>
> - Show quoted text -
In Texas today with my Texas concealed handgun permit I can go into a
gun shop and purchase a handgun without the background check or any
wait or hassle. I will say the background check for my permit was
rather intense, included fingerprints, a check to see that my taxes
were paid, a criminal background check and so on. As has been
reported, the shop records my name and I’m sure this was done in 1963.
Of course none of this applies to weapons bought on the street and I’d
guess this occurs more often than we would think.
Bill Clarke
Coondog
So they made a special run of special 6.5mm bullets to load what must
have been a small order of M/C rounds, the Italian rifle not being all
that popular in the U.S.
Now I don’t know about this so I’m not disputing your claim as I’m
usually required to do but I’d put my money on the Western Co. using
the same bullet that it used to load the Swedish 6.5 which was rather
popular in the U.S. at that time.
Bill Clarke
Anthony Marsh
Yes, I guess you think 4 million rounds is a small order. Either way it
was a custom order. There are various theories about who was supposed to
receive that WCC ammo. Some think the Greeks, some think the Israelis. In
any case the Marine Corps had no weapons capable of firing that round. The
order specified that the ammo be made to the Italian specs for the
Mannlicher-Carcano rifles.
> Now I don?t know about this so I?m not disputing your claim as I?m
> usually required to do but I?d put my money on the Western Co. using
> the same bullet that it used to load the Swedish 6.5 which was rather
> popular in the U.S. at that time.
>
Fun to guess, isn't it? But as usual you don't know what you are talking
about. In the Mannlicher-Carcano bullet family you can instantly tell
which brand it is by the cannelure. The cannelure is unique to the WCC
1954 manufacture and different from the Swedish Norma which I have and
also several other brands which I also have. But thanks for your pro forma
attack. Good to know that you revel in showing people here what your real
agenda is. BTW, Frazier knew enough to note and measure the cannelure.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/436461A.gif
So, how could Frazier know the MFG of the bullet that night before
having the chance to see the empty shells?
Did he know something which I also know and you don't know?
He was the FBI's top ballistics expert. You, not so much.
> Bill Clarke
>
Anthony Marsh
You love to guess. If you actually live in Texas why can't you just go
to a local library and look up the actual law in the books for 1963?
Anthony Marsh
Kinda sorta. Not sure if you are only talking about the
Mannlicher-Carcano. If so the FBI knew right away that the bullets were
fired from a Mannlicher-Carcano and then Klein's was a likely source to
sell it. Just from the bullets recovered. The DPD had the Walker bullet in
April and couldn't even figure out what caliber it was.
Show me the records showing how many Mannlicher-Carcanos were sold in
1963 before 11/22/63 to the Dallas area.
bigdog
>
I went through the same thing for my concealed carry permit in Ohio
although I don't remember a tax check being a part of it. I haven't bought
a firearm since obtaining the permit so I don't know if having the permit
would allow me to forgo the background check in Ohio.
As you point out, firearm sales between individuals are not uncommon and
it is perfectly legal to do so without the necessity of a background
check. It would be legal for me to sell you a gun as long as I had no
knowledge that you had a criminal record and legal for you to buy it from
me as long as your record is clean. I believe there is a limit of 3 gun
sales in a month before someone is considered to be a firearms dealer, in
which case he would have to register as such and would then be required by
law to conduct background checks and keep a record of all gun sales and
that has been the law for a long time. I believe, although haven't been
able to verify it, that was the law in 1963 when Oswald bought his guns.
In that case, there would be a record of the purchase even if he had
bought through a local gun shop rather than mail order. Back then, I don't
believe any form of identification was required so he could probably have
used an alias when buying in person just as he did for the mail order buy.
Coondog
Because in 1963 I bought a Winchester 12 gauge automatic shotgun at
Oshman’s in Houston. Still have it today. They recorded my name in
their log book. That is enough for me. If it isn’t enough for you
well…….
Bill Clarke
Coondog
It has been my experience that the cannelure goes down the barrel and
into space with the bullet it is on. So tell me, Mr. Ballistics
expert, how looking at the empty cases would reveal anything about the
cannelure on the bullet.
It also seems to me that in an unfired round the cannelure on the
bullet would be hidden by the neck of the case. Perhaps you will also
enlighten me on this since I stand in awe of your grip on ballistics.
Yes I surely do!
Bullet Clarke
Anthony Marsh
You need to learn how to read English. I said that Frazier knew the
manufacturer of the ammo without even needing to see the headstamps on
the empty cartridges. He knew from the unique cannelures on the bullets
themselves.
> It also seems to me that in an unfired round the cannelure on the
> bullet would be hidden by the neck of the case. Perhaps you will also
> enlighten me on this since I stand in awe of your grip on ballistics.
> Yes I surely do!
>
You are being silly again. That evidence sheet indicates that Frazier
was examining ONLY the fired bullets and fragments.
And from that alone he knew the brand of ammo. Because he was an expert.
> Bullet Clarke
>
curtjester1
> On 8/18/2010 11:09 PM, curtjester1 wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 18, 8:36 pm, Anthony Marsh<anthony_ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > have holes drilled for a scope? Seems like 'he' was anything but
> > cautious.
>
>
But 'he' used his real name there. Also, two weeks before the
assassination, 'he' was at the Sports Drome shooting range, and told
the people there who examined his rifle and scope that it was a
Japanese model (expensive) and had it mounted in Cedar City.
> > If there was paperwork to be had at a local gunshop, think how much more
> > there would have been for mail order from both ends the mail order company
> > and the Post Office. The paper trail was extremely exacting. For this
> > JFK/Rifle scenario, there was exactly NONE on both sides.
>
> The paper trail was in his aliase.
>
>
The paper trail was completely proven false, contrived by the
investigators. Even the rifle they wanted in question was screwed up
by them as the serial numbers in the magazine they used didn't match
the 40" weapon they wanted him to look like he ordered.
CJ
>
> > CJ- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Anthony Marsh
Maybe. There is no proof for that hearsay. Stop reciting hearsay as if
it is a proven fact.
>>> If there was paperwork to be had at a local gunshop, think how much more
>>> there would have been for mail order from both ends the mail order company
>>> and the Post Office. The paper trail was extremely exacting. For this
>>> JFK/Rifle scenario, there was exactly NONE on both sides.
>>
>> The paper trail was in his aliase.
>>
>>
> The paper trail was completely proven false, contrived by the
> investigators. Even the rifle they wanted in question was screwed up
> by them as the serial numbers in the magazine they used didn't match
> the 40" weapon they wanted him to look like he ordered.
>
You've lost me there. What serial numbers in which ad? Show me. Maybe you
don't realize that Klein's did have and did advertise the CARBINE back in
January, but by the end of the month they started running out of the
carbines and substituted short rifles. Yet they did not change their ad to
reflect that. It still said CARBINE and also 40 inches instead of the
original 36 inches. Have you ever seen a 40 inch Mannlicher-Carcano? No, I
didn't think so. Ain't no such animal.
bigdog
Where do you guys come up with this crap?