"Out with Bill Shelley in front" up on the OIC site

[Ralph Cinque]

An Op named Tim Brennan decided that he wanted to go to war over the Fritz
Notes and "Out with Bill Shelley in front". Well, if war is what he
wanted, war is what he got.

I have written a new article all about "out with Bill Shelley in front"
which is now posted at the top of the Wrap page of the OIC website.

I hope you realize that that statement is the most important piece of
evidence to be discovered in the JFK assassination since November 22,
1963.

It is Oswald's alibi, that he was in the doorway with Bill Shelley during
the motorcade, and it, combined with the images we have of him in the
doorway, prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that that is where he was when
JFK was being killed.

So, please read my new article on "Out with Bill Shelley in front" and
share it however you can.

http://www.oswald-innocent.com/wrap.html

[Ralph Cinque]

Just for good measure, I put an announcement about the new "Out with Bill
Shelley" article on the Home page of the OIC website. Or maybe I did it
purely out of spite. It's a distinct possibility.

http://oswald-innocent.com

[Mark OBLAZNEY]

Marina was making out with Shelley in the back, Part XXXVIIII, subset (c)

[Ralph Cinque]

And you wonder, Pink, why I am unwilling to debate you.

[tims...@gmail.com]

Unfortunately, Ralph, there appear to be a few GLARING omissions and
inaccuracies in your rather estimable new OIC article.

First, you appear completely UNWILLING to tackle the FACT that FBI
Bookhout's report MIRRORS the notes of DPD Fritz and that this FACT places
the "out front with Bill Shelley" notation as occurring AFTER the
assassination. You have simply completely ignored this in your article.

Second, your article claims that "out front with Bill Shelley" was
Oswald's alibi, as given in this first interview, for where he was DURING
the assassination. This is completely WRONG, Ralph.

We have THREE typewritten accounts of this first interview; FBI
Hosty/Bookhout, FBI Bookhout and DPD Fritz. Of these three reports, two
give Oswald's alibi for where he was DURING the shooting and the third
doesn't contain one.

And WHAT is Oswald's alibi? He says he was INSIDE the TSBD on the first
floor, Ralph!:

FBI Hosty/Bookhout:

"OSWALD claimed to be on the first floor when President JOHN F. KENNEDY
passed this building":

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0319a.htm

DPD Fritz:

"I asked him what part of the building he was in at the time the President
was shot, and he said that he was having his lunch about that time on the
first floor":

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0312b.htm

Some emotive article, topped off with a dinky little picture of Oswald as
Samson, is never going to top actual FACTS, Ralph.

You ought to rewrite your inaccurate article. Or, better yet, SIMPLY take
it down through SHEER embarrassment.

Informative Regards,

Tim Brennan
Sydney, Australia
*Newsgroup(s) Commentator*

*...NOT ONE of the three experts was able to strike the head or the
neck of the target EVEN ONCE.* (Emphasis added).
Mark Lane, Rush to Judgment, page 129, footnoted as: XVII 261-262.

And yet here IS WC XVII 261-262, showing hits to the head...
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0144a.htm

X marks the spot where SENIOR OIC MEMBER Mark Lane lied!

Stop the LIES! Oswald INSIDE!! Disband the OIC!!!

[Mark OBLAZNEY]

On Sunday, November 1, 2015 at 2:42:39 AM UTC+1, Ralph Cinque wrote:
> And you wonder, Pink, why I am unwilling to debate you.

So that's a no, Raff* ??? You scared then, little man ???

[donald willis]

On Sunday, November 1, 2015 at 12:45:35 PM UTC-6, tims...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, 31 October 2015 15:16:59 UTC+11, Ralph Cinque wrote:
> > An Op named Tim Brennan decided that he wanted to go to war over the Fritz
> > Notes and "Out with Bill Shelley in front". Well, if war is what he
> > wanted, war is what he got.
> >
> > I have written a new article all about "out with Bill Shelley in front"
> > which is now posted at the top of the Wrap page of the OIC website.
> >
> > I hope you realize that that statement is the most important piece of
> > evidence to be discovered in the JFK assassination since November 22,
> > 1963.
> >
> > It is Oswald's alibi, that he was in the doorway with Bill Shelley during
> > the motorcade, and it, combined with the images we have of him in the
> > doorway, prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that that is where he was when
> > JFK was being killed.
> >
> > So, please read my new article on "Out with Bill Shelley in front" and
> > share it however you can.
> >
> > http://www.oswald-innocent.com/wrap.html
>
> Unfortunately, Ralph, there appear to be a few GLARING omissions and
> inaccuracies in your rather estimable new OIC article.
>
> First, you appear completely UNWILLING to tackle the FACT that FBI
> Bookhout's report MIRRORS the notes of DPD Fritz and that this FACT places
> the "out front with Bill Shelley" notation as occurring AFTER the
> assassination. You have simply completely ignored this in your article.

Misinformative.... Nat that Ralph likes this either, but as I've
shown--most recently, in answer to Tim on another thread--the Bookhout
solo report is a fake. What I don't get is that both of you use this
report, for rather opposing reasons, though.... You're both building your
"houses" on sand

dcw

[tims...@gmail.com]

Oh goody! So that just means that the two lead articles on the OIC website
are BOTH duds, eh Cinque?

Given that they're both RIDDLED with errors.

[Bud]

Fritz`s notes establish the legitimacy of the Bookout report. Clearly
they both reflect things Oswald told his interrogators.

[Anthony Marsh]

So now you resort to bullying when you've lost an argument.

[donald willis]

Bookhout hmself testified that, after he did the joint report with Hosty,
he destroyed his notes for it, and that the only remaining "notes" was the
joint report! No second report! Sand!

dcw

[Ralph Cinque]

Fact: Fritz, Hosty, and Bookhout were present when Oswald said he was "out
with Bill Shelley in front".

Fritz and Hosty NEVER mentioned it in any way, and Bookhout changed it to
be that he was out with Shelley after the assassination, which was not
only wrong but impossible because Shelley was NOT out front when Oswald
left for home, and that is clearly established in the testimonial record
from multiple sources.

So, do the frickin' Math.

[Bud]

Bookout wrote his solo report on the day of the assassination. Clearly he
used his notes as the information matched what Fritz had in his notes.

[donald willis]

No one wrote a report on the day of the assassination. Hosty and Bookhout
wrote theirs, I believe, the next day, and Bookhout, supposedly, wrote a
solo one the day after *that*....

dcw

[Bud]

It says 11-22-63 right on it. It was written 11-22, dictated 11-24 and
reached its final form on 11-25.

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0322a.htm

[Ralph Cinque]

And the joint report made on the day included nothing about "out with Bill
Shelley in front". So, the final tally is: Fritz: never mentioned it.
Hosty: never mentioned it. Bookhout: mentioned it, but only after Oswald
was dead.

[Ralph Cinque]

And I'm telling you that he didn't write it until the 24th when Oswald was
dead. That made him free to lie, since Oswald could not refute him.

http://oswaldinthedoorway.blogspot.com/2015/11/so-that-is-bookhouts-solo-report.html

[donald willis]

You jumped to the wrong concussion, I think, Bud. Tell me where, on the
FBI forms, the date of the actual interview is recorded.

dcw

[David Von Pein]

RALPH CINQUE SAID:

Bookhout changed it to be that he was out with Shelley after the
assassination, which was not only wrong but impossible because Shelley was
NOT out front when Oswald left for home, and that is clearly established
in the testimonial record from multiple sources.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Of course it's wrong, Cinque. Because it's an obvious LIE being told by
the ASSASSIN HIMSELF!

Bookhout and Fritz weren't lying---Oswald was. Bookhout and Hosty and
Fritz were merely taking notes as a LIAR was giving them false
information.

But for some reason, Cinque thinks Oswald was telling the *gospel truth*
when he said he was "out with Shelley". But regardless of whether it was
DURING or AFTER the assassination, it's still a lie being told by Oswald,
because we know via Shelley *himself* that Shelley never saw or talked to
Oswald after about 11:45 or 11:50 AM on November 22.

And yet, incredibly, Ralph Cinque thinks the "out with Shelley" note
written by Captain Fritz "is the most important piece of evidence to be

discovered in the JFK assassination since November 22, 1963."

Hilarious!

[tims...@gmail.com]

Er, but Ralph, I always thought that your position was that Fritz DID
mention it in his notes because that was your, and the OIC's, wafer thin
and quite implausible alibi for where Oswald was at the time of the
shooting.

So now you're abandoning that idea, eh? Pretty wise, Ralph, given that
Fritz's notes in the right hand column follow Bookhout's solo report SO
closely it almost seems as if he read Bookhout's report and then copied
them down in his notes!

Fritz's notes:

http://www.jfk-info.com/notes1.htm

Bookhout's solo report:

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0322a.htm

[tims...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, 4 November 2015 11:31:17 UTC+11, Ralph Cinque wrote:
> Fact: Fritz, Hosty, and Bookhout were present when Oswald said he was "out
> with Bill Shelley in front".
>
> Fritz and Hosty NEVER mentioned it in any way, and Bookhout changed it to

Huh? NO! Fritz mentioned it in his notes:

http://www.jfk-info.com/notes1.htm

That is YOUR and the OIC's claim, Ralph!

> be that he was out with Shelley after the assassination, which was not
> only wrong but impossible because Shelley was NOT out front when Oswald

That's because Blood Soaked Kennedy Killer Oswald was lying again, Ralph.

> left for home, and that is clearly established in the testimonial record
> from multiple sources.

Which shows what a dumb lie it was by BSKK Oswald.

>
> So, do the frickin' Math.

OK, we got Fritz (notes) and Bookhout (solo report). No Hosty but two out
of three ain't bad, Ralph!

[tims...@gmail.com]

Then how do explain how Fritz's match Bookhout's report if Bookhout
supposedly LIED, Ralph?

Especially as you are completely relying on Fritz's notes to EXONERATE
Oswald?

Your argument makes about as much sense as Donald's one that the Bookhout
report was/wasn't the basis for the questioning of Shelley on the matter,
Ralph.

Which is to say it makes NO sense at all.

[Ralph Cinque]

David, it's time for you to get a carotid artery ultrasound from eating
all that fried chicken.

You say Oswald was a LIAR? But, don't you think he could have been a
better liar than that? Or perhaps you find no fault with his lying. But, I
think it would be awfully stupid of him to use someone as an alibi whom he
knew was not going to confirm it. It would better to say that he saw no
one.

Why would Oswald say he encountered Shelley out front after the
assassination when Shelley wasn't out there at that time? And, it wasn't
that Oswald didn't know whether Shelley was there or not. He knew Shelley
wasn't there because he didn't see him there. So, what you're saying is
that Oswald cited someone whom he knew was not only going to say that he
didn't see Oswald there, but was going to say that he wasn't even there
himself at the time. What an incredibly stupid lie to tell.

But, it's even worse because he had no reason to tell it. He never said he
left for home because Shelley gave him permission. Think about it. Oswald
left the building, and in doing so he had already made up his mind to go
home. He didn't step outside to get a breath of fresh air. So, Oswald
already had made up his mind to go home before the hypothetical encounter
with Shelley took place. Oswald decided on his own to go home because he
assumed no further work would be done that day. And by the way: he was
essentially right.

But, the point is: why would Oswald make up a story about seeing Shelley
outside afterwards for no reason? HE DIDN'T NEED AN ALIBI FOR BEING
OUTSIDE THE BUILDING AFTER THE ASSASSINATION. It wasn't in doubt that he
left for home. Why would he tell a lie about seeing Shelley at that time
when it served him no purpose?

Without a doubt, Oswald said he was out with Bill Shelley in front. Isn't
it far more likely that he said it in reference to a time that Bill
Shelley was actually out there rather than when he wasn't out there?
Shelley was there during the assassination. He was not there when Oswald
left for home. How can you be so obtuse not to realize that Oswald must
have been talking about during the assassination?

[David Von Pein]

As Tim Brennan has pointed out several times now --- Bookhout's report
(WR; p.619) perfectly aligns with Fritz' notes, including the "out with
Shelley" chronology.

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0322a.htm

[Anthony Marsh]

On 11/4/2015 9:30 PM, David Von Pein wrote:
> RALPH CINQUE SAID:
>
> Bookhout changed it to be that he was out with Shelley after the
> assassination, which was not only wrong but impossible because Shelley was
> NOT out front when Oswald left for home, and that is clearly established
> in the testimonial record from multiple sources.
>
>
> DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
>
> Of course it's wrong, Cinque. Because it's an obvious LIE being told by
> the ASSASSIN HIMSELF!
>
> Bookhout and Fritz weren't lying---Oswald was. Bookhout and Hosty and
> Fritz were merely taking notes as a LIAR was giving them false
> information.
>
> But for some reason, Cinque thinks Oswald was telling the *gospel truth*
> when he said he was "out with Shelley". But regardless of whether it was
> DURING or AFTER the assassination, it's still a lie being told by Oswald,
> because we know via Shelley *himself* that Shelley never saw or talked to
> Oswald after about 11:45 or 11:50 AM on November 22.
>

For some reason, to portray Oswald as a liar, YOU think Oswald said he was
out front with Shelley during the shooting. As if he was offering a phony
alibi. What's your alibi?

We don't need Shelley to see or talk to Oswald. Only you bring that up as
a straw man argument.

You don't understand the simple concept that you can see someone without
that other person seeing and/or talking to you.

[Ralph Cinque]

So if they align. So what? They were both bent on the same deception. But
actually, they don't align because Fritz said nothing about "out with Bill
Shelley in front" and Bookhout did. So, you've really got nothing.
Absolutely nothing.

[donald willis]

Forget it, David. See my post re Brennan's "find" in the "Fifty Years
Ago/Shelley Alibi" thread! Pleasant reading!

dcw

[Jason Burke]

"Absolutely nothing, Ralph"!?!

Kind of like everything you've ever posted, Ralph.

(Oh, and if you'd learn to quote, people *might* know just what you're
flailing about at, Ralph.)

[Robin Unger]

http://jfkassassinationimages.net/index.php/2015/11/05/its-all-over-for-out-front-with-shelley/

[tims...@gmail.com]

No Donald. What you like to THINK is that you have shown that Bookhout's
solo report is a fake. What you have actually DONE is provide evidence
that Bookhout initialed the Hosty/Bookhout report JUST like he initialed
the so-called "fake" Bookhout solo report and JUST like he initialed the
next report he filed!

In other words the so-called "fake" report is bookended by two OTHER
Bookhout reports with matching initials; apparently HIS!:

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0322a.htm

Your logic appears to be that Bookhout has disowned a report that he has
both dictated and then initialed after typing, Donald.

That would appear to be a logic built on sand, Donald.

Corrective Regards,

Tim Brennan
Sydney, Australia
*Newsgroup(s) Commentator*

*...NOT ONE of the three experts was able to strike the head or the
neck of the target EVEN ONCE.* (Emphasis added).
Mark Lane, Rush to Judgment, page 129, footnoted as: XVII 261-262.

And yet here IS WC XVII 261-262, showing hits to the head...
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0144a.htm

X marks the spot where Mark Lane lied!

[tims...@gmail.com]

Nah, Donald. Really just more POOR reasoning by you on display on that
thread. I HARDLY think a smart guy like DVP is going to find it
persuasive, Donald.

Informative Regards,

[donald willis]

You obviously haven't looked at the initials on the "bookending" reports.
They're hardly "matching"....

dcw

[tims...@gmail.com]

Great blog piece, Robin.

[David Von Pein]

For Pete sake, Ralph, you seem to be all over the map on this thing. One
minute you're claiming that Fritz' note where he writes "out with Bill
Shelley in front" is "the most important piece of evidence to be
discovered in the JFK assassination since November 22, 1963" [R. Cinque;
10/31/15]. And practically in your next breath you say "Fritz said nothing
about "out with Bill Shelley in front" and Bookhout did" [R. Cinque;
11/6/15].

What gives, Ralph?

I'm guessing that you're talking about Fritz not putting that specific
"out with Shelley" note in his longer, typed report that we find on WCR
Page 600, right?

But regardless of whether the note referencing "Shelley" was transferred
to Fritz' final report or not, Fritz still DID write "out with Shelley" in
his notes. And Bookhout's report aligns with Fritz' "Shelley" note, with
Bookhout filling in more of the details about what Oswald *MEANT* when the
topic of "out with Bill Shelley in front" came up during Captain Fritz'
interrogation of Lee Oswald.

Bookhout's report on Page 619 of the Warren Report makes it quite clear
that when Oswald told Fritz that he "went outside and stood around for
five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelley", Oswald was unquestionably
referring to a point in time that was AFTER the assassination of President
Kennedy and also definitely AFTER the second-floor lunchroom encounter
that Oswald had with Marrion Baker and Roy Truly as well.

Why keep banging your head against a brick wall on this "Shelley" thing,
Ralph? James Bookhout's report completely debunks your theory about Oswald
being "out with Bill Shelley in front" at exactly 12:30 PM CST on November
22, 1963.

[Ralph Cinque]

What gives? What gives out is your ability to reason. What I meant (which
I thought was obvious) is that after writing down "out with Bill Shelley"
in his notes, Will Fritz never mentioned it in his formal report or in his
testimony. He never repeated it. He hid it.

So, Fritz buried it while Bookhout resorted to a different tactic; he
revised it, pushing the time back to after the assassination when Oswald
was leaving for home.

How many times do I have to tell you that Bill Shelley was not out front
when Oswald left for home? Shelley left the front immediately after the
assassination. That is not in doubt. Shelley said so himself. And then he
went around to the back and reentered the building that way. At
12:33-12:34 Bill Shelley was definitely NOT out in front, so Oswald could
not possibly have seen him nor been talking to him.

And for Bookhout to add 5 or 10 minutes of chatting is all the more
ridiculous, as there wasn't time. Oswald had to walk 7 blocks before
boarding a bus which he did before 12:45. Besides, if Oswald lingered in
front of the TSBD for that long, how is it that nobody else saw him?
Furthermore, if Oswald was escaping from the scene of his crime, why would
he linger at all? What Bookhout wrote speaks of Oswald not having a care
in the world rather than running for his life.

How dare you suggest that I am obliged to accept what that lying James
Bookhout said? He was a lying FBI agent, and he didn't even put those
words in Oswald's mouth until after Oswald was dead. How come the joint
report of Hosty and Bookhout said nothing about "out with Bill Shelley in
front"? They both heard it.

But, Oswald was still alive then. But, once Oswald was dead, they could
twist it any way they wanted, and Bookhout did.

"Out with Bill Shelley in front" was Oswald's alibi- for the shooting. He
didn't need an alibi for being out front after the shooting. Why did it
matter whom he saw when he left for home? No crime was being committed
then. He needed an alibi for the shooting, which they would have solicited
and which he would have volunteered. Do you see any other alibi in there?
If "out with Bill Shelley in front" was not his alibi, then he didn't give
one, which means that they didn't ask for one. And that is ridiculous.
They accused; he denied; and that brings you to the alibi; each and every
time.

Out with Bill Shelley in front. It's what Oswald said, and it's where
Oswald was DURING THE SHOOTING. Read Larry Rivera because he has proven it
in spades.

http://oswaldinthedoorway.blogspot.com/2015/11/oic-chairman-larry-rivera-has-done-it.html

[David Von Pein]

RALPH CINQUE SAID:

"Out with Bill Shelley in front" was Oswald's alibi--for the shooting. He

didn't need an alibi for being out front after the shooting. Why did it
matter whom he saw when he left for home? No crime was being committed
then. He needed an alibi for the shooting, which they would have solicited
and which he would have volunteered. Do you see any other alibi in there?
If "out with Bill Shelley in front" was not his alibi, then he didn't give
one, which means that they didn't ask for one. And that is ridiculous.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

You can't read very well, Ralph. Captain Fritz specifically asked Oswald
where he was located AT THE TIME THE PRESIDENT WAS SHOT. And Oswald said
he was on the first floor at "about that time". Oswald said nothing to
Fritz about being "out with Bill Shelley in front" at the exact time of
the assassination. And Fritz' report in that regard perfectly matches what
we find in the joint FBI report filed by Hosty and Bookhout.

From the Hosty/Bookhout report:

"Oswald claimed to be on the first floor [NOT "OUT WITH BILL SHELLEY IN
FRONT"] when President John F. Kennedy passed this building." [WCR, page
613]

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0319a.htm


From Captain Fritz' report:

"I asked him what part of the building he was in at the time the President
was shot, and he said that he was having his lunch about that time on the
first floor." [WCR; page 600]

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0312b.htm

Why keep pretending that "out with Shelley" was Oswald's alibi, Ralph?
Because it's quite clear from the corroborative reports filed by Fritz,
Bookhout, and Hosty that you're dead wrong.

[Ralph Cinque]

How can you be so dense, Von Pein? I'm not talking about what Fritz said
later. I'm talking about when he first got Oswald in a room, how could he
not solicit his alibi? I'm talking about the Fritz Notes. How could Fritz
not write down Oswald's alibi at that time? Wasn't it the single most
important thing he had to write down, where Oswald said he was at the time
of the crime? So, when I said, "Do you see any other alibi in there?" I
meant within the Fritz Notes. That's what I was talking about.

And, the landing on which Oswald stood was on the first floor. It wasn't
on the street, and it wasn't on street level. It was continuous with and
an extension of the first floor.

And Oswald most certainly did not claim to be eating at the time of the
shots- let alone eating with others. And, you don't have to be Lennie
Briscoe (the greatest detective from Law and Order) to know that if the
perp says he was eating with some people, you want to talk to those
people. Fritz not only didn't talk to Jarman and Norman, he didn't even
name them to Joseph Ball. And you know what? Joseph Ball didn't even ask
who they were. Joseph Ball, a lawyer, didn't even ask for their names.

Oswald was NOT eating with Jarman and Norman at the time of the shots, as
they were on the 5th floor watching the motorcade at the time of the
shots, and we have two pictures of them there. And, Lee Harvey Oswald,
being smarter than David Von Pein, knew better than to give a phony alibi,
citing alibi witnesses whom he knew would deny his story. The lunch-eating
was from earlier, much earlier, and do you know who agrees? Your hero:
Vincent Bugliosi. In Reclaiming History, Bugliosi admitted that Oswald ate
lunch in the domino room, a cheese sandwich and an apple, where he saw
Jarman and Norman, and it lasted until 12:15. I guess Vince thought that
that left enough time for Oswald to high-tail it up to the 6th floor. I
wonder if Oswald said hello to Bonnie Ray Williams who was eating chicken
up there. Maybe it was Kentucky Fried.

Von Pein: in his very first interview, Oswald would have been asked for
his alibi, and he would have given it- even if he wasn't asked.

"Me? Kill Kennedy? Are you out of your mind? I was standing in the doorway
with Bill Shelley at the time."

As soon as they accused him, the alibi would have went flying out. It's
true for Oswald, for you, for me, for anybody, for everybody. You profess
your innocence by citing your alibi. It's the main thing that proves your
innocence.

Oswald professed his innocence out loud to the public 13 times which we
can hear. He certainly would have given police his alibi and at the
earliest opportunity.

So, for the dim-witted, if "out with Bill Shelley in front" in the Fritz
Notes is not Oswald's alibi, then where is Oswald's alibi in the Fritz
Notes? That's: in the Fritz Notes. The Fritz Notes. The Fritz Notes. The
Fritz Notes. Where is Oswald's alibi within the Fritz Notes?

http://oswaldinthedoorway.blogspot.com/2015/11/david-von-pein-750-am-1-hour-ago-ralph.html

[tims...@gmail.com]

Huh? Looks about the same to me.

Hosty/Bookhout:

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0406a.htm

Bookhout Solo:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10406#relPageId=100&tab=page

Bookhout Next:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10406#relPageId=102&tab=page

Looks like JWB, as in James W. Bookhout.

Case CLOSED!

[Ralph Cinque]

The joint statement said nothing about "out with Bill Shelley in front"
and the Bookhout solo statement said things that were patently false, such
as Oswald eating lunch after the assassination and Oswald talking to Bill
Shelley out front for 5 to 10 minutes as he was leaving. That did not
happen, and Shelley was not out front at the time, and he said so. So, why
would Oswald tell a lie that he knew would easily and definitely be proven
false? People tell lies that they think they can get away with, but he'd
have known he couldn't get away with this.

No, Brennan. Out with Bill Shelley in front was a reference to a time that
Shelley really was out in front, and that was during the assassination. It
was Oswald's alibi.

[tims...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, 14 November 2015 15:14:00 UTC+11, Ralph Cinque wrote:
> The joint statement said nothing about "out with Bill Shelley in front"

Huh? But Fritz's notes of the SAME interview did:

http://www.jfk-info.com/notes1.htm

I mean that's YOUR OWN excuse for Oswald, Ralph! Your OWN account of the
SAME interview! Fritz's notes!

> and the Bookhout solo statement said things that were patently false, such
> as Oswald eating lunch after the assassination and Oswald talking to Bill
> Shelley out front for 5 to 10 minutes as he was leaving. That did not
> happen, and Shelley was not out front at the time, and he said so. So, why

Yes, that's right. It's just another example of Oswald lying, Ralph.

> would Oswald tell a lie that he knew would easily and definitely be proven

Yes of course he would, Ralph. He was a SERIAL liar who was trying to
evade a murder rap.

> false? People tell lies that they think they can get away with, but he'd
> have known he couldn't get away with this.

I don't think Oswald was too fussed about telling a lie about Bill Shelley
at THAT point, Ralph. He had just a FEW other things on his mind about
then, doncha think?

>
> No, Brennan. Out with Bill Shelley in front was a reference to a time that
> Shelley really was out in front, and that was during the assassination. It

No it wasn't according to Bill Shelley, Cinque. He SPECIFICALLY says that
Oswald WASN'T "out with Bill Shelley in front" at the time JFK was shot:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11104#relPageId=84&tab=page

I mean YOU even said Shelley rejected Oswald's account above, Cinque!

> was Oswald's alibi.

No, Cinque. NO! Oswald's alibi was that he was on the first floor when
Kennedy was shot:

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0312b.htm

And:

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0319a.htm

You ought to stop simply MAKING STUFF UP, Cinque.

Informative Regards,

Tim Brennan
Sydney, Australia
*Newsgroup(s) Commentator*

*...NOT ONE of the three experts was able to strike the head or the
neck of the target EVEN ONCE.* (Emphasis added).
Mark Lane, Rush to Judgment, page 129, footnoted as: XVII 261-262.

And yet here IS WC XVII 261-262, showing hits to the head...
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0144a.htm

[bpete1969]

Why would you write something so demonstrably false about Shelley not
being out front after the shooting? He stated he was, in both his
affidavits and testimony. You consistently ignore Shelley and Lovelady
both stating that they were out front until Gloria Calvary came up to the
building.

Oswald's alibi, according to FBI and Secret Service reports, is that Ozzy
was on the first floor and did not watch the parade.

Your blatant misrepresentations might be one reason that, according to a
Hays County Sheriff's report, "Mr. Cinque advised that not many people
agree with his views in the JFK assassination".

[donald willis]

Having just looked at the documents in question, I can second DVP's
analysis.

dcw

[Ralph Cinque]

Brennnan! Fritz denied even taking those notes, and he died without ever
revealing them. So, he was only talking to himself when he wrote "out with
Bill Shelley in front". He never repeated it. Ever. Even though he wrote
it down, he kept it to himself.

And as to what bpete said, it's ridiculous. Yes, Shelley was there when
Gloria Calvary ran up and said "The President has been shot" but that
happened very soon afterwards, not 3 to 4 minutes later. She would have
had no need to say it if it were 3 or 4 minutes later. By then,
practically the whole world knew that the President had been shot.

Both Lovelady and Shelley described leaving the front and seeing Baker
reach the steps from a distance. Lovelady said he turned around and saw
him, and he cited the number of steps he took before seeing Baker.

Lovelady: 20 steps. Maybe 25.

And Shelley was with him. They stuck together. So, there is no chance that
Shelley was still out front when Oswald left for home. By his own
testimony, Shelley said he walked to the railway area, among the throng of
people who did the same. That happened immediately, as can be seen in the
Couch film, which also shows the two of them: Shelley and Lovelady. Then
the two of them went around to the back and reentered the building from
there. Upon seeing him, Roy Truly assigned Shelley to guard the freight
elevator, and after that, Shelley gave police a tour of the 6th floor.
There is no chance that Shelley was out in front when Oswald left for
home. And Shelly specifically denied it. He was asked when he saw Oswald,
and he said: not between 11:50 on the 1st floor and the police station.
And remember that Oswald definitely did come out and leave through the
front entrance at 12:34 so if Shelley was there, they'd both have seen
each other. Oswald was definitely there, therefore, Shelley definitely was
not. This is just an Op thing that bpete claims out of being an Op.

And what I told the Hays County Sheriff is that there are a lot of people
who don't like my opinions about the JFK assassination. I didn't tell him
what you said. I was there, and I know what I said.

As far as whether people agree with me, it's very polarized: people either
ardently agree with me or vehemently disagree. And that's find with me
because this is a frickin' war, and I know it.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 11/16/2015 9:48 PM, Ralph Cinque wrote:
> Brennnan! Fritz denied even taking those notes, and he died without ever
> revealing them. So, he was only talking to himself when he wrote "out with
> Bill Shelley in front". He never repeated it. Ever. Even though he wrote
> it down, he kept it to himself.
>

http://www.jfklancer.com/Fritzdocs.html

https://www.maryferrell.org/archive/docsets/1101/index.html


Mr. BALL. Do you remember what you said to Oswald and what he said to you?

Mr. FRITZ. I can remember the thing that I said to him and what he said to
me, but I will have trouble telling you which period of questioning those
questions were in because I kept no notes at the time, and these notes and
things that I have made I would have to make several days later, and the
questions may be in the wrong place...

[Ralph Cinque]

Gee, Marsh. You post flim-flam, and you don't even recognize it as
flim-flam.

Fritz took interrogation notes during the sessions, and Oswald confirmed
it. Oswald chastised Fritz for asking him again about the Hidell identity
by reminding him that he took notes, therefore, he should look it up.

So, if Oswald saw it, how could it not be true? You think he lied to Fritz
to his face about his taking notes? That is crazy.

Furthermore, everything about the notes has the look of being hastily and
cryptically written while a guy was speaking, trying to keep up with
him.

Fritz was not a very smart man, Marsh, but he was a smarter man than you.
And neither you nor he nor anyone else could listen to 13 hours of
interrogation and remember everything that Oswald said to be able to write
it down.

Stop being so childish and naive about what Fritz told the Warren
Commission. By that point in time, he was on the team. He knew what it was
about. He knew what they wanted. He knew what they expected from him, and
he delivered. And this is to say: he lied. Fritz lied.

[Glenn V.]

Den lördag 31 oktober 2015 kl. 05:16:59 UTC+1 skrev Ralph Cinque:
> An Op named Tim Brennan decided that he wanted to go to war over the Fritz
> Notes and "Out with Bill Shelley in front". Well, if war is what he
> wanted, war is what he got.
>
> I have written a new article all about "out with Bill Shelley in front"
> which is now posted at the top of the Wrap page of the OIC website.
>
> I hope you realize that that statement is the most important piece of
> evidence to be discovered in the JFK assassination since November 22,
> 1963.
>
> It is Oswald's alibi, that he was in the doorway with Bill Shelley during
> the motorcade, and it, combined with the images we have of him in the
> doorway, prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that that is where he was when
> JFK was being killed.
>
> So, please read my new article on "Out with Bill Shelley in front" and
> share it however you can.
>
> http://www.oswald-innocent.com/wrap.html

The same desperate, even though now again, squeezed down to that
ridiculous claim.

President Kennedy was killed at about 12:30. Exactly 33 minutes later
Altgens 6 went through the wires out to the rest of the world.

During which time Cinque's assassins not only managed the forgery. But
also just how to decect, in the midst of caos, exactly what, whom and why
to decide what to alter. Knowing exactly about all the other cameras
around and that it all needed to be synchronized.

Indeed, Cinque, not bad.

[tims...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, 17 November 2015 13:48:31 UTC+11, Ralph Cinque wrote:
> Brennnan! Fritz denied even taking those notes, and he died without ever

Cinnnqe! But Marsh just PROVED in this very thread that what you stated
above is "factually incorrect", to whit:

QUOTE ON:

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what you said to Oswald and what he said to you?

Mr. FRITZ. I can remember the thing that I said to him and what he said to
me, but I will have trouble telling you which period of questioning those
questions were in because I kept no notes at the time, and these notes and
things that I have made I would have to make several days later, and the
questions may be in the wrong place...

QUOTE OFF

> revealing them. So, he was only talking to himself when he wrote "out with
> Bill Shelley in front". He never repeated it. Ever. Even though he wrote
> it down, he kept it to himself.
>

Huh? Sure seems, though, that FBI Bookhout, sitting in on the very SAME
interview, heard it TOO, Ralph:

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0322a.htm

> And as to what bpete said, it's ridiculous. Yes, Shelley was there when
> Gloria Calvary ran up and said "The President has been shot" but that
> happened very soon afterwards, not 3 to 4 minutes later. She would have
> had no need to say it if it were 3 or 4 minutes later. By then,
> practically the whole world knew that the President had been shot.
>

By YOUR mate, Lee Harvey Oswald, CINQUE!

> Both Lovelady and Shelley described leaving the front and seeing Baker
> reach the steps from a distance. Lovelady said he turned around and saw
> him, and he cited the number of steps he took before seeing Baker.
>

Yep, so yet ANOTHER indicator that Oswald was lying, given that he was not
"out with Bill Shelley in front" but, by HIS OWN ADMISSION, INSIDE the
TSBD on the first or second floor, Cinque!

> Lovelady: 20 steps. Maybe 25.
>
> And Shelley was with him. They stuck together. So, there is no chance that
> Shelley was still out front when Oswald left for home. By his own

Yep. Oswald LIE, Cinque. Penny gonna drop sometime SOON? Didn't think
so...

> testimony, Shelley said he walked to the railway area, among the throng of
> people who did the same. That happened immediately, as can be seen in the
> Couch film, which also shows the two of them: Shelley and Lovelady. Then
> the two of them went around to the back and reentered the building from
> there. Upon seeing him, Roy Truly assigned Shelley to guard the freight

Meaningless BUMPF, trotted out in a FUTILE effort to prop up a FAILED
theory, Cinque.

> elevator, and after that, Shelley gave police a tour of the 6th floor.
> There is no chance that Shelley was out in front when Oswald left for
> home. And Shelly specifically denied it. He was asked when he saw Oswald,

That's right! YOUR mate, Lee Harvey Oswald, was LYING, Cinque. Ya DIG, or
WHAT?

> and he said: not between 11:50 on the 1st floor and the police station.

Yep! DITTO!

> And remember that Oswald definitely did come out and leave through the
> front entrance at 12:34 so if Shelley was there, they'd both have seen
> each other. Oswald was definitely there, therefore, Shelley definitely was
> not. This is just an Op thing that bpete claims out of being an Op.
>

So anybody who OPPOSES you is an OP, eh Cinque?! LOFL!!! Gissa BREAK,
Cinque...

You TRULY believe that the CIA would employ <snicker> "OPS" to combat an
INEPT organization as LAUGHTER INDUCING as the OIC?!!! Think again,
mate...

> And what I told the Hays County Sheriff is that there are a lot of people
> who don't like my opinions about the JFK assassination. I didn't tell him
> what you said. I was there, and I know what I said.
>

Off topic BUMPF, Cinqe!

> As far as whether people agree with me, it's very polarized: people either
> ardently agree with me or vehemently disagree. And that's find with me

Put me down as VEHEMENTLY disagreeing, Cinque!

> because this is a frickin' war, and I know it.

One you already LOST, Ralph. Even ARCH JFK conspiracy enthusiast Robert
Groden says that Doorway Man is a CROCK, Ralph.

Case CLOSED!

Informative Regards,

Tim Brennan
Sydney, Australia
*Newsgroup(s) Commentator*

*...NOT ONE of the three experts was able to strike the head or the
neck of the target EVEN ONCE.* (Emphasis added).
Mark Lane, Rush to Judgment, page 129, footnoted as: XVII 261-262.

And yet here IS WC XVII 261-262, showing hits to the head...
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0144a.htm

X marks the spot where SENIOR OIC MEMBER Mark Lane lied!

Stop the LIES! Oswald INSIDE!! Disband the PHUCKEN OIC!!!

[Anthony Marsh]

On 11/18/2015 10:14 PM, Ralph Cinque wrote:
> Gee, Marsh. You post flim-flam, and you don't even recognize it as
> flim-flam.
>
> Fritz took interrogation notes during the sessions, and Oswald confirmed
> it. Oswald chastised Fritz for asking him again about the Hidell identity
> by reminding him that he took notes, therefore, he should look it up.
>
> So, if Oswald saw it, how could it not be true? You think he lied to Fritz
> to his face about his taking notes? That is crazy.
>

Oswald did not tell Fritz that he was taking notes.

> Furthermore, everything about the notes has the look of being hastily and
> cryptically written while a guy was speaking, trying to keep up with
> him.
>

Fritz said he had his own style of shorthand.

> Fritz was not a very smart man, Marsh, but he was a smarter man than you.
> And neither you nor he nor anyone else could listen to 13 hours of
> interrogation and remember everything that Oswald said to be able to write
> it down.
>

That's why we can't trust his notes, DUH!

> Stop being so childish and naive about what Fritz told the Warren
> Commission. By that point in time, he was on the team. He knew what it was
> about. He knew what they wanted. He knew what they expected from him, and
> he delivered. And this is to say: he lied. Fritz lied.
>

Sure, which is why he lied.