Girl On The Stairs

[Walt]

Fascinating reading!....... Some new and revealing information in
the book. The Lner's won't like it.

[Bud]

On Apr 18, 2:58 pm, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:
> Fascinating reading!.......   Some new and revealing information in
> the book.   The Lner's won't like it.

"A fool and his money are soon parted."

[burgundy]

This solid research proves Oswald was not on six.

Burgundy

[Jean Davison]

Serious question. Did the writer explain why she didn't see
Baker and Truly on the stairs?

Jean

[deke]

Jean-

According to the very tight timeline the author lays out, the two women
were already on the first floor when Truly and Baker began to ascend the
stairway. This is corroborated by the women's supervisor who remained on
the fourth floor. She made a statement that she saw Truly and Baker reach
the fourth floor some time AFTER her two employees went down the stairs.
Hope this helps.

[Walt]

Good question.....I don't remember Ernest addressing that
question..... But it must have occurred to him because, like you,
I've asked myself this same question.

I would assume that Vicki Adams and Sandra Styles had already reached
the first floor when Truly and Baker started up the stairs. Adams said
that she had reached the first floor about one minute after the
shooting......and Baker and Truly encountered Lee Oswald in the
lunchroom about a minute and a half after the shooting. So perhaps
Adams and Styles had just left the stair case when Baker and Truly
started up those stairs.

[Jean Davison]

That time line has problems. The rear stairway she
descended is next to the freight elevators where Truly said he paused
and yelled upstairs for someone to "turn loose" the elevator. Here's
the 1st floor diagram, stairs at bottom right:

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0491b.htm

Yet Adams didn't see or hear Truly?

Adams said that when she got downstairs she saw Shelley
and Lovelady near the back door as she was going out. Another
problem there because Shelley/Lovelady didn't come inside immediately,
they went to the railroad yards first -- that's why they were coming
in the back way. And Baker/Truly hadn't even reached the elevators
yet? Doesn't add up, imo. But I thank you for answering my
question, Deke.

Jean

[Ace Kefford]

Classic conspiracy-thinkin' cherry-picking. Putting together one fact here, one supposition there, etc., all to support a particular theory, when the vast bulk of the evidence supports a simpler explanation for what happened that day in Dallas and has a narrative that brings together many, many overlapping facts.

I'm reminded of the closing phrase from Plan 9 From Outer Space (hope I am quoting it correctly): "Can you prove it didn't happen?"

[Walt]

> http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol...

>
>              Yet Adams didn't see or hear Truly?
>
>              Adams said that when she got downstairs she saw Shelley
> and Lovelady near the back door as she was going out.   Another
> problem there because Shelley/Lovelady didn't come inside immediately,
> they went to the railroad yards first -- that's why they were coming
> in the back way.   And Baker/Truly hadn't even reached the elevators
> yet?    Doesn't add up, imo.   But I thank you for answering my
> question, Deke.
>
> Jean

Jean...... Neither Vicki Adams nor Sandra Styles saw or talked to Shelley
or Lovelady when they reached the first floor about one minute after the
shooting. THAT point is the central theme of Barry Ernest's book.

David Belin made that up and inserted it into Vicki Adams testimony as a
way of discrediting her by pitting the testomony of Shelly and Lovelady
against Vicki's testimony.... And It's now pretty clear that Shelly and
Lovelady did NOT go to the railyard after they left the front steps of the
TSBD where they were during the shooting..... They stood around on the
street in front of the TSBD for a few minutes and then went back inside
the TSBD.

[Ralph Cinque]

Jean, Barry Ernest, the author of The Girl on the Stairs, disputes the
whole claim about Vickey encountering Shelley and Lovelady. Here is a link
about it:

http://mysite.verizon.net/restu5kb/id20.html

[deke]

Actually, the book covers two timelines - the Warren Commission's, which
has the two women going down the stairs a minute or two after the shots
were fired, and that of Victoria Adams, her friend, and her supervisor,
which has them going down the stairs IMMEDIATELY after the shooting. The
latter changes everything. Also, both women deny seeing Shelly and
Lovelady at the bottom of the stairs - Adams was quite shocked to see that
in her WC testimony. If they are telling the truth, and I think they are,
then we have some nefarious implications here. Anyway, it was an
interesting book - kind of reads like a mystery novel. I think even those
that don't lean towards conspiracy would enjoy it.

[curtjester1]

> http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol...

>
>              Yet Adams didn't see or hear Truly?
>
>              Adams said that when she got downstairs she saw Shelley
> and Lovelady near the back door as she was going out.   Another
> problem there because Shelley/Lovelady didn't come inside immediately,
> they went to the railroad yards first -- that's why they were coming
> in the back way.   And Baker/Truly hadn't even reached the elevators
> yet?    Doesn't add up, imo.   But I thank you for answering my
> question, Deke.
>
> Jean

It was a point of contention, that Adams said she never saw Lovelady
or Adams, and that part was written in (falsely), which is also
supported by Styles.

CJ

[curtjester1]

Well, the only way I see Oswald making it to a lunchroom, unseen or
unheard, would to be not the shooter, but a lookout, who left the
sixth floor, and knew he had to be quiet, and put his feet on the hand-
rails, and slid down so Adams and Styles couldn't hear him. If you
have any better ideas, we'll hold an open ear.

CJ

[Anthony Marsh]

You used the wrong word. The correct word is "simplistic" not "simple."
You always seek a simplistic explanation for any complicated event. Just
thinking about the possibility of conspiracy frightens you. You think John
Wilkes Booth was a lone nut.

[Walt]

Classic Warren Commission apologists thinkin' cherry-picking. Putting
together one fact here, one lie there, one supposition there, etc., all to

support a particular theory, when the vast bulk of the evidence supports a
simpler explanation for what happened that day in Dallas and has a

narrative, called the Warren Report, that brings it all of the many, many
overlapping facts together in a plausible fantasy..

[burgundy]

On Apr 22, 8:31 am, Ace Kefford <bglobe...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Jean I really think you should revisit this. This is testimony from a
harassed witness who disappeared but once Ernst found her, I think it
rings very true. But rather than dispute minituae here, why not check out
the book and then refute it if you wish?

[Walt]

Excellent!....... Some very good information in the link.

I'd like to add that Sandra Styles knew both Shelly and Lovelady on a
friendly first name basis. She said that she and Vicky DID NOT see or
talk to either of them when they reached the first floor.....

[Bud]

<snicker>

[Jean Davison]

On Apr 22, 8:15 pm, deke <drw...@sdf.lonestar.org> wrote:
> On Monday, April 22, 2013 9:25:49 AM UTC-4, Jean Davison wrote:
> > On Apr 21, 9:21 pm, deke <drw...@sdf.lonestar.org> wrote:
>
> > > On Saturday, April 20, 2013 9:37:48 PM UTC-4, Jean Davison wrote:
> > > Jean-
>
> > >   According to the very tight timeline the author lays out, the two women
>
> > > were already on the first floor when Truly and Baker began to ascend the
>
> > > stairway. This is corroborated by the women's supervisor who remained on
>
> > > the fourth floor. She made a statement that she saw Truly and Baker reach
>
> > > the fourth floor some time AFTER her two employees went down the stairs.
>
> > > Hope this helps
>
> >             That time line has problems.  The rear stairway she
>
> > descended is next to the freight elevators where Truly said he paused
>
> > and yelled upstairs for someone to "turn loose" the elevator.  Here's
>
> > the 1st floor diagram, stairs at bottom right:
>

> >http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol...

>
> >              Yet Adams didn't see or hear Truly?
>
> >              Adams said that when she got downstairs she saw Shelley
>
> > and Lovelady near the back door as she was going out.   Another
>
> > problem there because Shelley/Lovelady didn't come inside immediately,
>
> > they went to the railroad yards first -- that's why they were coming
>
> > in the back way.   And Baker/Truly hadn't even reached the elevators
>
> > yet?    Doesn't add up, imo.   But I thank you for answering my
>
> > question, Deke.
>
> > Jean
>
> Actually, the book covers two timelines - the Warren Commission's, which
> has the two women going down the stairs a minute or two after the shots
> were fired, and that of Victoria Adams, her friend, and her supervisor,
> which has them going down the stairs IMMEDIATELY after the shooting. The
> latter changes everything. Also, both women deny seeing Shelly and
> Lovelady at the bottom of the stairs - Adams was quite shocked to see that
> in her WC testimony. If they are telling the truth, and I think they are,
> then we have some nefarious implications here. Anyway, it was an
> interesting book - kind of reads like a mystery novel. I think even those
> that don't lean towards conspiracy would enjoy it.

When memories change, and they DO change, it's not unusual
for people to be shocked when they see their original accounts.
There is a study of memories of the Challenger disaster that showed
this, e.g.

A few years ago Sean Murphy posted emails he'd gotten from
Sandra Styles. Some quotes:

"As to the time of the whole thing, I wasn't sure then and
can't say for certain now."

"We did linger at the window a bit trying to sort it out....
I am certain that we went to the public elevator [in the SE corner]
first, but may not have waited long there either."

"It seems odd to me that if the two men ran up the back
stairs a minute or so after the shooting we did not encounter them on
our way down even if we had left immediatey and even more strange that
Mrs. Garner would have been in a position [at the rear of the
building] to see them coming up."

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/341f0f7963ce06e5?hl=en

If Truly and Baker were in the lunchroom with Oswald when
the women passed by on the stairs, I suppose T&B could've reached the
4th floor after the women left, as Garner said. But that would also
explain why they didn't see Oswald on the stairway.

Jean

[Walt]

>    http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/341f0f7963ce...

>
>             If Truly and Baker were in the lunchroom with Oswald when
> the women passed by on the stairs, I suppose T&B could've reached the
> 4th floor after the women left, as Garner said.   But that would also
> explain why they didn't see Oswald on the stairway.

The encounter with Lee Oswald in the second floor lunchroom was very
brief..... maybe 10 seconds? I seriously doubt that Adams and Styles
could have passed Truly and Baker without any of them noticing ......




>
> Jean

[Walt]

On Apr 23, 1:19 pm, Jean Davison <jean.davis...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes, memory definitely can be inaccurate......particularly if there's
a long period of time involved.

That's the reason I've looked for Vicki Adam's sworn affidavit which
she apparently gave to the Dallas sheriff's office on Monday 11 /25/
63 but I don't believe it's in the book.

it's not unusual
> for people to be shocked when they see their original accounts.
> There is a study of memories of the Challenger disaster that showed
> this, e.g.
>
>           A few years ago Sean Murphy posted emails he'd gotten from
> Sandra Styles.  Some quotes:
>
>           "As to the time of the whole thing, I wasn't sure then and
> can't say for certain now."
>
>           "We did linger at the window a bit trying to sort it out....
> I am certain that we went to the public elevator [in the SE corner]
> first, but may not have waited long there either."
>
>           "It seems odd to me that if the two men ran up the back
> stairs a minute or so after the shooting we did not encounter them on
> our way down even if we had left immediatey and even more strange that
> Mrs. Garner would have been in a position [at the rear of the
> building] to see them coming up."
>

>    http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/341f0f7963ce...

[Walt]

> http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol...

>
>              Yet Adams didn't see or hear Truly?

I agree ..... The chronolgy is difficult to accept......

There is something wrong with the testimonies of the people involved......
Surely Adams and Styles would have encountered Baker and Truly somewhere
along the way.......

But none of those four people mention anything about sighting one
another...... The thing that troubles me is:.....David Belin obviously
inserted the Shelly / Lovelady encounter into Vicki Adams statement.

Clearly he wanted to discredit her ......Was it because he truly believed
that she was "hallucinating" and imagining that she had instantly departed
the fourth floor window? ( Belin did tell her that he didn't believe a
word she said) ...... Or was he discrediting her for more sinister
reasons?

[curtjester1]

And there can be 'selective memory'. People don't want to get too
specific in order not to be in the limelight, or a point of
controversy.

So far, Dorothy Garner states the two girls left "very quickly" after
the shots. And she followed them right after, so that shows sight and
action.

Vickie Adams stated, too, that they left soon after the shots, as soon
as the motorcade got to the triple underpass. That's very specific,
and it's probably in the area of ten seconds at most.

Sandra Styles said in testimony that they left right after the shots,
and offered no timeline of lingering or any other event that would
have been noteworthy to be a hindrance of time.

If you count going through the doors from the stairwell, waiting for
Truly to come down and catch up to Baker either on the stairwell, or
going to the lunchroom; and the walk to the lunchroom, the little
conversation, and the walk back to the stairwell, you might be looking
at what...30 secs to a minute, no?

CJ

[burgundy]

Belin's continual harassment of Adams... and no one else in her
"group"... is a key part of the book, why she fled Dallas, and makes
her story stronger IMO.

Burgundy

[Walt]

Since I know without any doubt the WR is a pile of bullshit......I
can't help but believe that Baker and Truly didn't charge directly
across the first floor...... Logic dictates that Baker was looking
for a way to the roof when he entered the building.
What's right inside the front door on the right hand side as you enter
the building.....an ELEVATOR..... and a staircase going up. So
imagine Baker bursting through the front door and looking for a way to
get to the roof......he sees an elevator door on his right and stairs
going up beside the elevator. Isn't it logical that he would try to
open the door on that elevator by pushing the button?

How long did he stand there and wait before Truly entered and told him
that elevator only went to the 4th floor? Was there a delay there in
which Vicki and Sandra could have passed through the back of that
first floor so that none of the four people involved saw each other.
I believe that all four of them remembered seeinf Eddie Piper there on
the first floor..... but they never saw each other..... Eddie Piper
could probably have resolved the question but LBJ's SBRC wasn't really
interested in the truth.........

[curtjester1]

From what I can glean, Baker runs toward a stairwell, the wrong one
and Truly says over here. That first stairwell was only going up to
the second floor. Truly has to take Baker through some kinda a
swinging doorway that leads to a counter on that first floor. Baker
runs up Truly's back before a latch can be tended to....and then they
go toward the elevators where Truly calls for a elevator and pushes
the button twice. Nothing comes, so they proceed to the rear
stairwell in a west corner of the building. Styles and Adams would
have come down the back stairs and went out the back door, closeby and
out the building, likely missing all their route from the outside
after the shots.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/truly1.htm

> What's right inside the front door on the right hand side as you enter
> the building.....an ELEVATOR.....  and a staircase going up.    So
> imagine Baker bursting through the front door and looking for a way to
> get to the roof......he sees an elevator door on his right and stairs
> going up  beside the elevator.   Isn't it logical that he would try to
> open the door on that elevator by pushing the button?
>
> How long did he stand there and wait before Truly entered and told him
> that elevator only went to the 4th floor?   Was there a delay there in

It went higher. I don't know why your bringing the 4th floor into
play.

> which Vicki and Sandra could have passed through the back of that
> first floor so that none of the four people involved saw each other.
> I believe that all four of them remembered seeinf Eddie Piper there on
> the first floor.....  but they never saw each other.....  Eddie Piper
> could probably have resolved the question but LBJ's SBRC wasn't really
> interested in the truth.........

I think there's more to this counter than is usually found. Maybe
Piper was there.

CJ

[Jean Davison]

If Truly and Baker were at the elevator, Styles and Adams
would've had to walk right past them. On the diagram below, the
stairs are at the lower right (northwest) corner. The freight
elevators are the nearby boxes marked with Xs. The two men went to
the west elevator, the one next to the stairs. Truly marked their
route from the front of the building to that elevator with a pen,
though his line is faint.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0491b.htm


Jean

>
> http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/truly1.htm
>
> > What's right inside the front door on the right hand side as you enter
> > the building.....an ELEVATOR.....  and a staircase going up.    So
> > imagine Baker bursting through the front door and looking for a way to
> > get to the roof......he sees an elevator door on his right and stairs
> > going up  beside the elevator.   Isn't it logical that he would try to
> > open the door on that elevator by pushing the button?
>
> > How long did he stand there and wait before Truly entered and told him
> > that elevator only went to the 4th floor?   Was there a delay there in
>
> It went higher.  I don't know why your bringing the 4th floor into
> play.
>
> > which Vicki and Sandra could have passed through the back of that
> > first floor so that none of the four people involved saw each other.
> > I believe that all four of them remembered seeinf Eddie Piper there on
> > the first floor.....  but they never saw each other.....  Eddie Piper
> > could probably have resolved the question but LBJ's SBRC wasn't really
> > interested in the truth.........
>
> I think there's more to this counter than is usually found.  Maybe
> Piper was there.
>

> CJ- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Walt]

I'm talkin about the small passenger elevator that was just inside the
front door on the righthand side, at the bottom of the stairs that went up
to the second floor....... Surely Baker would have spotted that elevator
upon entering the building, because he was looking for a way to get to the
roof. That passenger elevator only went to the fourth floor.

Did Baker try to open the door on that elevator by pushing the button?
It would seem logical that he would at least try to take that elevator up
to the roof top floor...... It doesn't make logical sense that they would
take a very slow old frieght elevator when he obviously was running at
full stride when he entered the building. Personally I think the official
story of Baker and Truly's journey to the roof stinks......

[curtjester1]

The passenger elevator wasn't working. I don't know if Baker or Truly
tried it first. It was written upon that the electricity went out in
the building right before the shooting, which was quite alarming if
you were thinking along conspiratorial lines. Here's V. Adams
testimony about what she tried to take.

Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do ?
Miss ADAMS - Following that, I pushed the button for the passenger
elevator, but the power had been cut off on the elevator, so I took
the stairs to the second floor.
Mr. BELIN - You then went all the way back to the northwest corner of
the building and took the same set of stairs you had previously taken
to come down, or did you take the stairs by the passenger elevator?
Miss ADAMS - By the passenger elevator.
Mr. BELIN - Do those stairs go above floor 2?
Miss ADAMS - No, sir; they didn't.
Mr. BELIN - What did you do when you got to the second floor?
Miss ADAMS - I went into the Texas School Book Depository office and
just listened for a few minutes to the people that were congregating
there, and decided there wasn't anything interesting going on, and
went out and walked around the hall to the freight elevator meaning
the one on the northwest corner.
Mr. BELIN - Would it have been the west or the east? The one nearest
the stairs or the other one?
Miss ADAMS - Yes; the one nearest the stairs.
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?
Miss ADAMS - I went into the elevator which was stopped on the second
floor, with two men who were dressed in suit and hats, and I assumed
they were plainclothesmen.
Mr. BELIN - What did you do then?
Miss ADAMS - I tried to get the elevator to go to the fourth floor,
but it wasn't operating, so the gentlemen lifted the elevator gate and
we went out and ran up the stairs to the fourth floor.
Mr. BELIN - Then you went back to the Scott Foresman Company offices?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir.

CJ

[Anthony Marsh]

Just because it was written up does not make it a fact. What about the
fact that it was written up that the phone lines went down? Doe that make
it a fact? Does that have to be conspiratorial? What about the power going
out during the Super Bowl? Does that have to be conspiratorial? Was that
al Qaeda attacking the US, trying to cause panic and a wild stampede like
shooting at the Pot festival? At the Boston Marathon did you see a
stampede of spectators trampling little children to death?

[curtjester1]

No, but it makes it real highly likely that it was true. You have people
working during the assassination and they reported it interfered with
their office work. I think anyone would look at that as something highly
unlikely for such a specific time, and with conspiracy vs. lone gunman a
natural wondering from the getgo, it would at least pique the interest of
all to add to the case or try to make it insignificant. Are you making it
insignificant?

I think some ;people could see quite an advantage for having the power go
out if they wanted conspirators to escape or having greater difficulty to
investigate the floors for some minutes right after the shooting.

CJ

[Walt]

I'll use Vicki Adams testimony to make my point....

Mr Baker when you entered the building you were in a hurry to get to
the roof, iis that correct?

Mr Baker... yes, sir

What did you do when you entered the building/

Mr. Baker ....Well as soon as I entered I noticed an elevator right
there inside the dooor on my right. So I
I pushed the button for the passenger elevator, and waited for the
door to open, about that time I noticed a man behind me who asked if
he could help me. He said he was a supervisor who worked in the
bulding, so I told him I needed to get to the roof right away.

He yelled up the stairway for the elevator.... and after just a few
seconds he said c'mon let's take the stairs, and we started up the
stairs that were right there beside that elevator. These stairs took
us to the second floor. On the second floor we turned left and ran
down a hall that was about 75 or 80 feet long then we turned right and
continued along a hall that was about 40 feet long that took us toward
the back of the building. At the end of that hall we entered a small
vestibule. I sw Nr Truly exix the vestibule through a door on my left
and I started to follow him but glanced through the window of a door
on my right which was a dor to a lunchroom. I noticed a man standing
by the coke machine in hat room, so I opened the door and asked the
man what he was doing....About that time the Supervisor returned and
said..."he works here" ...so I turned and followed the supervisor up
the stairs in the NW corner of the building.

[Anthony Marsh]

This has been debunked several times. The trunk lines were overloaded by
so many people all calling at the same time. We had the same problem in
Boston.

> unlikely for such a specific time, and with conspiracy vs. lone gunman a
> natural wondering from the getgo, it would at least pique the interest of
> all to add to the case or try to make it insignificant. Are you making it
> insignificant?
>

Yes, you are insignificant.

> I think some ;people could see quite an advantage for having the power go
> out if they wanted conspirators to escape or having greater difficulty to
> investigate the floors for some minutes right after the shooting.
>

Wacky idea.
They had a thing called stairs in those days.
I would better prefer a wacky theory about trapping the sniper in the
elevator.

> CJ
>

[curtjester1]

This is new for me. I always thought they just went to the stairway from
the first floor via going to the back of the building. Here, Bakers says
they went up the stairway that is in the front of the building, went up to
the second floor, which was as far as that stairway went. Then, they
traversed across the second floor and Baker saw Oswald through the door
leading into the lunchroom. After that, Truly and Baker then went through
both doors to the back stairway, then up.

CJ

[deke]

> No, but it makes it real highly likely that it was true. You have people
>
> working during the assassination and they reported it interfered with
>
> their office work. I think anyone would look at that as something highly
>
> unlikely for such a specific time, and with conspiracy vs. lone gunman a
>
> natural wondering from the getgo, it would at least pique the interest of
>
> all to add to the case or try to make it insignificant. Are you making it
>
> insignificant?
>
>
>
> I think some ;people could see quite an advantage for having the power go
>
> out if they wanted conspirators to escape or having greater difficulty to
>
> investigate the floors for some minutes right after the shooting.
>
>
>
> CJ

There are some problems with this power failure. I would have left the
stairway that Adams and Styles went down without any lighting. Same thing
for the second floor break room where Oswald went for a coke and
encountered Baker. It was either very brief or maybe only certain circuits
were shut down.

[deke]

>
> Mr Baker when you entered the building you were in a hurry to get to
>
> the roof, iis that correct?
>
>
>
> Mr Baker... yes, sir
>
>
>
> What did you do when you entered the building/
>
>
>
> Mr. Baker ....Well as soon as I entered I noticed an elevator right
>
> there inside the dooor on my right. So I
>
> I pushed the button for the passenger elevator, and waited for the
>
> door to open, about that time I noticed a man behind me who asked if
>
> he could help me. He said he was a supervisor who worked in the
>
> bulding, so I told him I needed to get to the roof right away.
>
>
>
> He yelled up the stairway for the elevator.... and after just a few
>
> seconds he said c'mon let's take the stairs, and we started up the
>
> stairs that were right there beside that elevator. These stairs took
>
> us to the second floor. On the second floor we turned left and ran
>
> down a hall that was about 75 or 80 feet long then we turned right and
>
> continued along a hall that was about 40 feet long that took us toward
>
> the back of the building. At the end of that hall we entered a small
>
> vestibule. I sw Nr Truly exix the vestibule through a door on my left
>
> and I started to follow him but glanced through the window of a door
>
> on my right which was a dor to a lunchroom. I noticed a man standing
>
> by the coke machine in hat room, so I opened the door and asked the
>
> man what he was doing....About that time the Supervisor returned and
>
> said..."he works here" ...so I turned and followed the supervisor up
>
> the stairs in the NW corner of the building.
>
>

Walt- where did you get this account? It does not correspond to Baker's WC testimony.

http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/history/wc_period/warren_report/MarrionLBaker.html

[Walt]

> http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/history/wc_period/warren_report/MarrionL...

No, It does NOT correspond to the official story.... I'm sorry I thought
I had made it clear that I do not believe the official story for the
reason that Vicki Adams and Sandra Styles didn't see Baker and Truly on
the first floor....And the official story doesn't make sense. If Baker
wanted to get to the roof as quickly as possible won't he have been
looking for a way up as soon as he entered the TSBD? There was a small
passenger elevator right inside the front door of the TSBD and a stairway
that went up to the second floor....... Is it logical that he would have
tried to take that passenger elevator?

I'm not asking anybody to accept my theory as a FACT.....I'm merely
pointing out that I don't believe the official account and ofering my
reasons for rejecting that official story......

[curtjester1]

Could be. Someone has addressed the issue(s) with his thoughts.

http://rfmcelroyiii.wordpress.com/2011/12/20/the-jfk-assassination-pt-6-the-tsbds-electricity/

CJ

[Jean Davison]

> reasons for rejecting that official story......- Hide quoted text -
>

You're not "merely pointing out," you REWROTE Baker's
testimony. He said nothing about a passenger elevator. What he
actually said was,

>>
Mr. BAKER - As I entered this building, there was, it seems to me like
there was outside doors and then there is a little lobby.
Mr. BELIN - All right.
Mr. BAKER - And then there are some inner doors and another door you
have to go through, a swinging door type.
As I entered this lobby there were people going in as I entered. And I
asked, I just spoke out and asked where the stairs or elevator was,
and this man, Mr. Truly, spoke up and says, it seems to me like he
says, "I am a building manager. Follow me, officer, and I will show
you." So we immediately went out through the second set of doors, and
we ran into the swinging door.
Mr. BELIN - All right.
>>

He also didn't say that he saw anyone "standing by the coke
machine." Baker couldn't even see inside the lunchroom when he first
spotted Oswald.

Rewriting what a witness said is outrageous, Walt. Are you that
desperate, or what?

Jean

[Walt]

Do you have a reading comprehension problem?...... I said that I DO NOT
believe the official story, because it's not logical.

People who entered the TSBD on routine business either climbed the stairs
to the second floor or took that passenger elevator up as high as the
fourth floor....... So why would Baker who was in a hurry ( He was
photographed running at full stride ) even consider taling a Slooooow
frieght elevator???..... And why didn't Adams and Styles see him standing
there ( he certainly would have been a memorable figure in his motorcyle
garb. )

[Walt]

On Apr 30, 9:20 am, Jean Davison <jean.davis...@gmail.com> wrote:

I made it perfectly clear that I was doing that to make it easy to
make the point that it would have been more logical for Baker to go
the way that the normal traffic went when it entered the building.....

[Bud]

Walt`s contrived nonsense is more real to him than reality.

[Jean Davison]

No, YOU have a problem. You fabricated the exchange between Baker
and Belin quoted above and presented it as though it were part of Baker's
testimony. What you believe or don't believe has nothing to do with it.

>
> People who entered the TSBD on routine business either climbed the stairs
> to the second floor or took that passenger elevator up as high as the
> fourth floor.......  So why would Baker who was in a hurry ( He was
> photographed running at full stride ) even consider taling a Slooooow
> frieght elevator???.....

Try reading Baker's actual testimony. He asked for directions and
Truly spoke up. Baker had no idea he was going to a slow freight
elevator, and had it been working, it would've been the fastest route to
the 6th floor.

> And why didn't Adams and Styles see him standing
> there ( he certainly would have been a memorable figure in his motorcyle
> garb. )

At last, a good question. Why didn't Adams and Styles see
Truly and Baker, or hear Truly yelling for the elevator?

Jean

[Bud]

So you were rewriting what happened to suit yourself.

> People who entered the TSBD on routine business either climbed the stairs
> to the second floor or took that passenger elevator up as high as the
> fourth floor.......  So why would Baker who was in a hurry ( He was
> photographed running at full stride )

He said he stopped running as soon as he entered.

> even consider taling a Slooooow
> frieght elevator???.....

Likely because Truly said it was the quickest way to the roof.

>And why didn't Adams and Styles see him standing
> there ( he certainly would have been a memorable figure in his motorcyle
> garb. )

Maybe they were slower coming out than they claimed.

[curtjester1]

I can see that. Taking a passenger elevator that went to the 4th
floor would have been the fastest way. I do know that Truly overtook
Baker when Baker was in the TSBD first floor, as he had to go through
a gate or turnstile or something like that, and that Baker ran up into
his back before getting freed to go through. So, Truly at that point
would have tried to probably take the passenger elevator. Maybe you
can look at his testimony. For whatever reason they tried the freight
elevators I think calling up twice before embarking up the stairs at
the rear.

CJ

[curtjester1]

Because likely they beat them down there. It was Adams' contention
she got down in a minute or less. Her way to the outside would have
been right where they got off the stairs. When she got down,
according to her, there was people coming in and going out, so there
would have been much more action and noise than just Truly and Baker
and/or they just went out before the voice would have been
noticeable.

CJ

[curtjester1]

Hey, who wouldn't want to take a freight elevator if it's empty?
There would be no assassin on there and if they went up the stairs,
they might be running into one, and be right in harm's way.

> >And why didn't Adams and Styles see him standing
> > there ( he certainly would have been a memorable figure in his motorcyle
> > garb. )
>
>   Maybe they were slower coming out than they claimed.

They weren't, that's the point of getting the witnesses together and
some verified paperwork that the book bring's out.

CJ

[Jean Davison]

You're living in a fantasy world, Walt.

Jean

[Jean Davison]

Did you look at the floor plan of the first floor? To go
outside, Adams would've passed *right by* the elevator that Truly and
Baker went to, in a very small area. That she saw people coming in
and out suggests that she came down later, because Baker said he
noticed only two men near the elevator, one of them sitting down.

The WC reconstruction estimated that T&B reached the
lunchroom in approximately 90 seconds -- not "reached the elevator,"
mind you, but the 2nd floor.

Before this book, Styles told another researcher that she
believed they came down later than Adams thought. .

Here's one way to judge Adams' time estimates, if anyone
wants to look it up. She estimated that she went back inside the
building no more than 5 minutes after the last shot and that while she
was outside, she overheard a police radio saying that a witness
reported shots from the 4th floor. When was that report on the police
transcript?

Did the author mention that Adams told the WC she was
wearing 3-inch heels? Try running down stairs in heels sometimes,
guys

Jean

[Bud]

It has to come to the floor you are waiting for it on.

> There would be no assassin on there and if they went up the stairs,
> they might be running into one, and be right in harm's way.

Why would Baker run to the building at all if he was afraid to run
into the assassin?

> > >And why didn't Adams and Styles see him standing
> > > there ( he certainly would have been a memorable figure in his motorcyle
> > > garb. )
>
> >   Maybe they were slower coming out than they claimed.
>
> They weren't,

Maybe they were.

> that's the point of getting the witnesses together and
> some verified paperwork that the book bring's out.

Satisfying the audience that bought that book of this wouldn`t be a
high hurdle, would it?

> CJ

[Walt]

That's the official story......Is it true? Then why didn't Vicki
Adams and Sandra Styles see them and why didn't Baker and Truly see
the two girls? I believe the answer lies in the truth...... That
Baker and Truly waited near the front door for the PASSENGER elevator,
and when they became impatient they took the stairs to the second
floor and then went down the aisle that led to the vestibule in the NW
corner by the lunchroom where Baker spotted Lee Oswald drinking a
coke.


That's the only way the two parties could have passed each other
unnoticed.

[Walt]

On Apr 30, 11:16 pm, curtjester1 <curtjest...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Won't wash....... Their supervisor Dorothy A. Garner said that the
girls went down the stairs and AFTER they went down the stairs Mr
Truly and a policeman emerged from the stairs......

You might argue that Baker and Truly were later than the evidence
shows but then you have to discard the evidence.

Maybe Baker and Truly ran up the stairs to the second floor and were
making their way to the NW corner at the time that Adams and Styles
were descending the stairs.........

[Walt]

NO.....I'm not the one who believes the Warren Report.......

[Walt]

The author checked the time of that radio transmission.....12:38
Eight minutes after the shooting..... Adams said she was outside for
about five minutes after the shooting.... She wasn't far off in her
estimate.

>
>             Did the author mention that Adams told the WC she was
> wearing 3-inch heels?  Try running down stairs in heels sometimes,
> guys
>
> Jean

I've wondered about that..... I've never worn any three inch
heels....but would it be impossible to dash down the stairs while
wearing three inch heels?

[curtjester1]

This is the first floor of the TSBD. Perhaps you can show us what
you're trying to infer.

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/Photos_-_WCD_Photos_-_Texas_School_Book_Depository_-_p3

The girls went out the door to the Houston dock area, if that helps.

If you read Marrion Baker's testimony, he will say that there was
already a crowd in and coming in when he arrived there.

>            The WC reconstruction estimated that T&B reached the
> lunchroom in approximately 90 seconds -- not "reached the elevator,"
> mind you,  but the 2nd floor.
>

True, but they weren't very precise with events leading up to it. How
long did it take Baker to notice pigeons leaving and decide to go to
the building. It was said he stopped and looked down Elm St. before
he did anything. He had to ride his motorcyle about 200 feet, park
it, go through a crowd to get to the entrance, run into Truly, be
taken through some doorways inside the lobby area where there was a
little mishap with the latch, then proceed to the elevators where
Truly "pushed the buttons twice", and "called up twice".

vs. a brief wait at the window and leaving as the motorcade approached
the underpass. asking and getting styles to move, running across the
4th floor to the back stairwell, and running down the stairs. Michael
Griffith has them timed at 42 seconds, and then they were basically at
the door where they would just go to the outside.

>            Before this book, Styles told another researcher that she
> believed they came down later than Adams thought.  .
>

She's not being forthright. There are two besides her that went, and
they were much more precise.

>             Here's one way to judge Adams' time estimates, if anyone
> wants to look it up.  She estimated that she went back inside the
> building no more than 5 minutes after the last shot and that while she
> was outside, she overheard a police radio saying that a witness
> reported shots from the 4th floor.  When was that report on the police
> transcript?
>

Pretty much right on as there was great focus on the minutae in
Ernest's book. That really has nothing to do with the important
timelines that deal with a meeting of a Truly or Baker or a sixth
floor descender.

>             Did the author mention that Adams told the WC she was
> wearing 3-inch heels?  Try running down stairs in heels sometimes,
> guys
>

I'm sure he did. All one has to do is go see her testimony. It was
asked if she walked or ran. She said "we both ran."

This is not to mention the added evidence found on the sixth floor
that would delay any shooter/descender from leaving and getting down
fast, if that is what they chose to do.

CJ

[curtjester1]

True, which means it would have had to come down, and then they would
have had to gone back up. Baker wasn't complaining. And those
freight elevators don't exactly move very fast.

> > There would be no assassin on there and if they went up the stairs,
> > they might be running into one, and be right in harm's way.
>
>   Why would Baker run to the building at all if he was afraid to run
> into the assassin?
>

I don't know really. He probably wasn't even thinking of 'assassin'.
He just heard shots and pigeons fly and probably didn't even process
what was a potential assassination attempt or its implications.

> > > >And why didn't Adams and Styles see him standing
> > > > there ( he certainly would have been a memorable figure in his motorcyle
> > > > garb. )
>
> > >   Maybe they were slower coming out than they claimed.
>
> > They weren't,
>
>   Maybe they were.
>

It's really moot, but you should read the book. The moot part is
there couldn't have been anybody come down to the lunchroom from the
sixth floor or anywhere else in the crucial time after the shots
because there was a lookout that stayed on by the fourth floor
stairwell.

> > that's the point of getting the witnesses together and
> > some verified paperwork that the book bring's out.
>
>   Satisfying the audience that bought that book of this wouldn`t be a
> high hurdle, would it?
>
>

No, it wouldn't or shouldn't. Buy the book and pay your dues if you
want to know the details. It's proof your intersted in the case for
one, and two it shows that you would appreciate that timeless hardwork
that went in to get the information and collate it into a book.

CJ

[Anthony Marsh]

He was a cop. It was his job. Did he really think he would be quick
enough to catch the sniper in the act on the roof?

[Jean Davison]

You're the one who makes up testimony.

Jean

[curtjester1]

Basically without a snowball's chance in hades. First they would have
had to lie in their testimonies. What for? Second, they would have
had all the people see what they did and report (if need be) what way
they went. Nothing was mentioned about the passenger elevator, so
they are now part of the total conspiracy of concocting a story where
they went so as to appease the WC conspirators. Nice one.

CJ

[curtjester1]

Here's a wild one. The girls beat Truly and Baker and went outside.
Nothing like voices calling out for an elevator would even be noticed, as
that is what they did all day long there anyway, much less hear anything
if they were already outside, or by chance their 3 inch heels were
drumming out all noise with their stair descents.

> You might argue that Baker and Truly were later than the evidence
> shows but  then you have to discard the evidence.
>

What evidence?

> Maybe Baker and Truly ran up the stairs to the second floor and were
> making their way to the NW corner at the time that Adams and Styles
> were descending the stairs.........
>
>

The only ray of hope is that Baker and Truly beat them to the lunchroom
and the girls missed it. But then, Baker and Truly should have heard the
girls coming down, but they didn't, or at least didn't say anything about
it. If I were Ernest, I would call Garner back up on the phone and ask
her, how long she stood on the fourth floor stairway before she saw the
officers come up her way? And so, IF Truly and Baker beat Styles and
Adams to the lunchroom, it would still mean that Oswald had to come up
from the first floor or was already there on the second. And if you say
that in your wild story that Baker and Truly went up the wrong stairs, how
would they miss Oswald, and how would Baker be looking at a little window
at the stairwell door? Isn't that only on the back stairway?

CJ

[curtjester1]

Except only when you copy and paste it in a NG to make a ;point...:)

CJ

[Jean Davison]

Did the author quote that transmission, or give the cite?
Because I don't see it in CE705.
Jean

[Bud]

Right. Curt thought he was avoiding harm`s way, try to keep up.

> Did he really think he would be quick
> enough to catch the sniper in the act on the roof?

Being a CTer you would have rushed to the basement to catch a
rooftop shooter.

[Bud]

Then why would they be in harm`s way running up the stairs?

> > > > >And why didn't Adams and Styles see him standing
> > > > > there ( he certainly would have been a memorable figure in his motorcyle
> > > > > garb. )
>
> > > >   Maybe they were slower coming out than they claimed.
>
> > > They weren't,
>
> >   Maybe they were.
>
> It's really moot, but you should read the book.  The moot part is
> there couldn't have been anybody come down to the lunchroom from the
> sixth floor or anywhere else in the crucial time after the shots
> because there was a lookout that stayed on by the fourth floor
> stairwell.

You don`t understand the word "moot".

> > > that's the point of getting the witnesses together and
> > > some verified paperwork that the book bring's out.
>
> >   Satisfying the audience that bought that book of this wouldn`t be a
> > high hurdle, would it?
>
> No, it wouldn't or shouldn't.  Buy the book and pay your dues if you
> want to know the details.  It's proof your intersted in the case for
> one, and two it shows that you would appreciate that timeless hardwork
> that went in to get the information and collate it into a book.

The audience for this book are people desperate to believe Oswald
was a patsy. I`m not in that group.

> CJ

[Walt]

The encounter with Lee Oswald in the second floor lunchroom took only
a few seconds, so the girls couldn't have passed by without either
party noticing the other party.

If I were Ernest, I would call Garner back up on the phone and ask
her, how long she stood on the fourth floor stairway before she saw
the officers come up her way?

Ernest DID try to get Mrs Garner to recall how long she was there on
the fourth floor landing, but Mrs Garner was 85 years old and couldn't
remember that detail but she did say that while she was there several
women from the offices came and looked out the windows on the west
side of the building and watched the activity in the GK /railyard
area. However during the summer of 64 she obviously told the US
Attorney Martha Joe Stroud that after Vicki Adams and Sandra Styles
went down the stairs she saw Mr Truly and the policeman emerge from
the stairwell. If we can believe the WR then we know that Baker and
Truly arrived on the fourth floor about three minutes after the FIRST
shot was fired...

And so, IF Truly and Baker beat Styles and Adams to the lunchroom, it
would still mean that Oswald had to come up from the first floor or
was already there on the second.

I doubt that T&B were in the lunchroom doorway when A&S passed
by..... It's just not plausible.

And if you say that in your wild story that Baker and Truly went up
the wrong stairs, how would they miss Oswald,

We don't know what route Lee took to get from the Domino room on the
first floor to the lunchroom on the second floor..... Did he take
the stairs in the NW corner of the building??....or...Did he go to the
stairs at the front entrance, and step outside enroute to the second
floor and glance down Elm street just as James Altgens snapped the
shutter as JFK is hit by the first shot?

and how would Baker be looking at a little window at the stairwell
door?

Not the stairwell door....there were no doors at the stairwells.....
There was three dors in the vestibule at the west end of the second
floor lunchroom. The door that B&T would have entered was in the
south wall of the small vestibule the door that opened into the
lunchroom was on the east wall and the door to the stairs was on the
west wall. If Baker had entered the vestibule from the office area
aisle the lunchroom door with the window would have been right there
near his right arm. He couldn't have avoided seeing anybody in that
lunchroom.

There is a map of the second floor layout on page 150 of the WR.

[Walt]

Ernest said that he checked the DPD radio log and found only one
transmission that mentioned the FOURTH floor of the TSBD ( That's the
floor Vicki Adams worked on so it caught her attention) That DPD radio
transmission ocurred at 12:38.

[curtjester1]

>
> > > > > > even consider taling a Slooooow
> > > > > > frieght elevator???.....
>
> > > > >   Likely because Truly said it was the quickest way to the roof.
>
> > > > Hey, who wouldn't want to take a freight elevator if it's empty?
>
> > >   It has to come to the floor you are waiting for it on.
>
> > True, which means it would have had to come down, and then they would
> > have had to gone back up.  Baker wasn't complaining.  And those
> > freight elevators don't exactly move very fast.
>
> > > > There would be no assassin on there and if they went up the stairs,
> > > > they might be running into one, and be right in harm's way.
>
> > >   Why would Baker run to the building at all if he was afraid to run
> > > into the assassin?
>
> > I don't know really.  He probably wasn't even thinking of 'assassin'.
> > He just heard shots and pigeons fly and probably didn't even process
> > what was a potential assassination attempt or its implications.
>
>   Then why would they be in harm`s way running up the stairs?
>

Well, at least he had a gun. A shooter would just be as much in harm's
way. i'm sure he processed enough to know the motorcade was probably
being fired upon. I think a freight elevator would definitley be the
safest, if you were just trying to sneak up on the top floor.

> > > > > >And why didn't Adams and Styles see him standing
> > > > > > there ( he certainly would have been a memorable figure in his motorcyle
> > > > > > garb. )
>
> > > > >   Maybe they were slower coming out than they claimed.
>
> > > > They weren't,
>
> > >   Maybe they were.
>
> > It's really moot, but you should read the book.  The moot part is
> > there couldn't have been anybody come down to the lunchroom from the
> > sixth floor or anywhere else in the crucial time after the shots
> > because there was a lookout that stayed on by the fourth floor
> > stairwell.
>
>   You don`t understand the word "moot".
>

Moot is quite understood. You don't understand the evidence being
presented. It's moot because there can be no shooter ascending at the
crucial time people want an Oswald coming down the stairs.

> > > > that's the point of getting the witnesses together and
> > > > some verified paperwork that the book bring's out.
>
> > >   Satisfying the audience that bought that book of this wouldn`t be a
> > > high hurdle, would it?
>
> > No, it wouldn't or shouldn't.  Buy the book and pay your dues if you
> > want to know the details.  It's proof your intersted in the case for
> > one, and two it shows that you would appreciate that timeless hardwork
> > that went in to get the information and collate it into a book.
>
>   The audience for this book are people desperate to believe Oswald
> was a patsy. I`m not in that group.
>
>

Not a real tough concept when you have people impersonating him tons of
times before the assassination and even on assassination day. They're not
even saying he necessarily had to be innocent, just that it's known now,
he couldn't have fired the shots and descended the stairs to meet with T
and B.

CJ

[Anthony Marsh]

Being a CT I would have locked all the exits and started going up floor
by floor. Also lock off the elevators.

[Jean Davison]

But it's not the only reference to the fourth floor. Between
12:45 and 12:48, the transcript in CE705 shows this:

QUOTE:

>>>

531 [policeman] Well, all the information we have received, 9, indicates
that it did come from about the 5th or 4th floor of that building.

>>>

Again, this is between 12:45 and 12:48.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=1134&relPageId=491
Jean

[Bud]

You are still misusing the word.

> > > > > that's the point of getting the witnesses together and
> > > > > some verified paperwork that the book bring's out.
>
> > > >   Satisfying the audience that bought that book of this wouldn`t be a
> > > > high hurdle, would it?
>
> > > No, it wouldn't or shouldn't.  Buy the book and pay your dues if you
> > > want to know the details.  It's proof your intersted in the case for
> > > one, and two it shows that you would appreciate that timeless hardwork
> > > that went in to get the information and collate it into a book.
>
> >   The audience for this book are people desperate to believe Oswald
> > was a patsy. I`m not in that group.
>
> Not a real tough concept when you have people impersonating him tons of
> times before the assassination and even on assassination day. They're not
> even saying he necessarily had to be innocent, just that it's known now,
> he couldn't have fired the shots and descended the stairs to meet with T
> and B.

See? People who can think critically have no use for a book like
this. No use for you either, since you bought into Oswald being a
patsy without it.


> CJ

[Bud]

Yah, but in the Dal-Tex building.

[curtjester1]

The key there would have been Truly going and continuing up the stairs and
coming back to Baker. Then, they would have had to retreat back to the
stairs, which would have been 15 seconds. So, confrontation, and
travelling time going to Oswald would be say, 25 seconds. Maybe 5 seconds
back toward the stairs, to hear a descending S&A. I think if they were
focused, they could have maybe missed their noise, but I would say still,
unlikely. The door to the stairwell would have been closed, so it may
have muffled some.

>  If I were Ernest, I would call Garner back up on the phone and ask
> her, how long she stood on the fourth floor stairway before she saw
> the officers come up her way?
>
> Ernest DID try to get Mrs Garner to recall how long she was there on
> the fourth floor landing, but Mrs Garner was 85 years old and couldn't
> remember that detail but she did say that while she was there several
> women from the offices came and looked out the windows on the west
> side of the building and watched the activity in the GK /railyard

She should be asked not about the officers, that was a little muffled but
about going out with the girls again, and see if he can get when she came
back to the office. He didn't try to go into that. I know she's elderly,
but she might be able to remember something more specific than something
that seems general in content to her. But you do raise a point in that
people looking there outside the windows, would also be a deterrant for
anyone coming down as well.

> area.  However during the summer of 64 she obviously told the US
> Attorney Martha Joe Stroud that after Vicki Adams and Sandra Styles
> went down the stairs she saw Mr Truly and the policeman emerge from
> the stairwell.  If we can believe the WR then we know that Baker and
> Truly arrived on the fourth floor about three minutes after the FIRST
> shot was fired...
>

I doubt that long. I believe Reid where Oswald is looked to have came by
after the confrontation with T and B was about 2 minutes after the shots,
which makes sense with 90 seconds to get there and another 30 secs to get
to the stairwell, and another 30 to get to the 4th floor...so I say about
2:30 for that. The shooter(s) must have come down, if they even took the
stairs, when Truly and Baker went up, and when people went back to their
offices.

>  And so, IF Truly and Baker beat Styles and Adams to the lunchroom, it
> would still mean that Oswald had to come up from the first floor or
> was already there on the second.
>
> I doubt that T&B were in the lunchroom doorway when A&S passed
> by.....  It's just not plausible.

That's why I say a "ray of hope". It really isn't plausible at all.

>
>   And if you say that in your wild story that Baker and Truly went up
> the wrong stairs, how would they miss Oswald,
>
> We don't know what route Lee took to get from the Domino room on the
> first floor to the lunchroom on the second floor.....   Did he take
> the stairs in the NW corner of the building??....or...Did he go to the
> stairs at the front entrance, and step outside enroute to the second
> floor and glance down Elm street just as James Altgens snapped the
> shutter as JFK is hit by the first shot?
>

He could have been just on the second floor, as it's purported that Geneva
Hines gave him change to get his soda. If Baker is correct in that he saw
Oswald coming from the vestibule and walking away from him, he probably
would have had to go up the stairs by stairs as it leads right into
Baker's visual, and would have him coming around the bend there and into
the lunchroom Otherwise, he would have probably had to go way out of his
way to get to the back of the stairs to go up, and would not have been in
that line of site if he went through the main door at the stairs as it
would have been a little more of a direct route to the lunchroom, and it
would have been much harder if impossible for Baker to catch site of him
where and when he said he did. Also, if he went in that way, the door is
one that is a spring- loaded door which shuts automatically and would have
been where Baker would and even more Truly would have seen that if they
were anywhere cognizant of their surroundings.

> and how would Baker be looking at a little window at the stairwell
> door?
>
> Not the stairwell door....there were no doors at the stairwells.....
> There was three dors in the vestibule at the west end of the second
> floor lunchroom.   The door that B&T would have entered was in the
> south wall of the small vestibule  the door that opened into the
> lunchroom was on the east wall and the door to the stairs was on the
> west wall.   If Baker had entered the vestibule from the office area
> aisle the lunchroom door with the window would have been right there
> near his right arm.   He couldn't have avoided seeing anybody in that
> lunchroom.
>

I can't follow you too well here, but their was a door on the platform
of the stairs they would have been climing in the northwest corner
stairs, that had a small, square window.

> There is a map of the second floor layout on page 150 of the WR.
>
> Isn't that only on the back stairway?

I've seen the map and picture. Yeah, it shows the line of sight to
the back stairway.

CJ

[Anthony Marsh]

OK, so you didn't notice where it said "5th" floor. 4th floor, 5th
floor, 3rd floor, 6th floor, close enough for the DPD.

[Walt]

And what would you have accomplished?.......... You would have found that
someone had planted an old rifle and some spent shells. Of course you
would have Lee Oswald in your net, but you'd have found him in the 2nd
floor lunchroom calmly drinking a coke, so you wouldn't have placed him at
the top of your suspects list, and you'd notice that Charles Givens a
felon with a police record is missing.......

[Jean Davison]

> http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/Photos_-_WCD_Photos_-_Texas...

There aren't any photos of that area that I know of. I was
talking about the floor diagram, CE 362:

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0491b.htm

The stairway the women descended is at the lower right, the
elevator is the big X nearby, the loading dock is at the bottom.
Adams had to pass by that elevator to get to any rear exit.

>
> The girls went out the door to the Houston dock area, if that helps.
>
> If you read Marrion Baker's testimony, he will say that there was
> already a crowd in and coming in when he arrived there.

That was in the lobby at the FRONT of the building, not near
the back stairway. Two different areas.

>
> >            The WC reconstruction estimated that T&B reached the
> > lunchroom in approximately 90 seconds -- not "reached the elevator,"
> > mind you,  but the 2nd floor.
>
> True, but they weren't very precise with events leading up to it.  How
> long did it take Baker to notice pigeons leaving and decide to go to
> the building.  It was said he stopped and looked down Elm St. before
> he did anything.  He had to ride his motorcyle about 200 feet, park
> it, go through a crowd to get to the entrance,

Baker can be seen running toward the building in the Couch film,
and it apparently did take him a little bit longer to get to the building
than the reenactment showed. Still, I can't believe Adams was already
outside before T&B had even reached the elevator.

> run into Truly, be
> taken through some doorways inside the lobby area where there was a
> little mishap with the latch, then proceed to the elevators where
> Truly "pushed the buttons twice", and "called up twice".
>
> vs. a brief wait at the window and leaving as the motorcade approached
> the underpass.  asking and getting styles to move, running across the
> 4th floor to the back stairwell, and running down the stairs.

I don't think they left as the motorcade "approached the
underpass" because Adams said she wanted to go to the railroad yards
where she'd seen people running, and people didn't start running that
early.

>Michael
> Griffith has them timed at 42 seconds, and then they were basically at
> the door where they would just go to the outside.

Nobody "timed" them. Michael Griffith once argued that
Baker and Truly got to the second floor in no more than 65 seconds.
These are just guesses.

>
> >            Before this book, Styles told another researcher that she
> > believed they came down later than Adams thought.  .
>
> She's not being forthright.  There are two besides her that went, and
> they were much more precise.

Why argue that she's not "forthright" instead of simply
"mistaken"? I think Adams is mistaken, not lying.

Four women went downstairs together? How many years later
did the other two give their "precise" time estimates?

>
> >             Here's one way to judge Adams' time estimates, if anyone
> > wants to look it up.  She estimated that she went back inside the
> > building no more than 5 minutes after the last shot and that while she
> > was outside, she overheard a police radio saying that a witness
> > reported shots from the 4th floor.  When was that report on the police
> > transcript?
>
> Pretty much right on as there was great focus on the minutae in
> Ernest's book.  That really has nothing to do with the important
> timelines that deal with a meeting of a Truly or Baker or a sixth
> floor descender.

The best way to judge the time imo is by looking at how Adams'
story fits in with other events. For instance, Adams mentioned a cop at
the back of the building who told her to go back inside, which suggests
that the building was being sealed off -- that didn't happen right away.
The spectators running, the people coming in and out at the back -- all
suggest a later time.

>
> >             Did the author mention that Adams told the WC she was
> > wearing 3-inch heels?  Try running down stairs in heels sometimes,
> > guys
>
> I'm sure he did.  All one has to do is go see her testimony.  It was
> asked if she walked or ran.  She said "we both ran."
>
> This is not to mention the added evidence found on the sixth floor
> that would delay any shooter/descender from leaving and getting down
> fast, if that is what they chose to do.

I think it's the other way around. The 6th floor evidence
pointing to Oswald is another indication Adams is wrong.

Jean

[Anthony Marsh]

Well, for one thing I would have saved Officer Tippit's life. Second,
everyone in the building would be questioned and asked to show ID. Oswald
would have shown his Hidell ID and the cops would ask why he was using a
fake ID. While questioning him the Chicago office would call in to say
that the rifle with that serial number was sold to Hidell.

[Jean Davison]

LOL. Good one, Bud!

Jean

[Walt]

Utterly ridiculous!!...... How would securing the TSBD have saved
Tippit?

Lee wasn't carrying any ID with the name Hidell......That Hidell card
turned up on SATURDAY after the investigators had sifted through Lee
Oswalds possessions ( which they had illegally seized) and the FBI had
retrieved the order form for the rifle at Kleins.

Wow!.... So you think within an hour or so they would have traced
the Rifle to Kleins in Chicago? Amazing!!
You're right that would have solved the crime right then.....Because
finding the order blank and documents at Kleins in anything less than
48 hours would indicate that the FBI already knew about the rifle and
where to find the paper trail.

What's that you say?..... They FBI did find the trail in only twelve
hours. Yes, Indeed they did..... That's the point, thank you.

[BT George]

> >Tisk. Tisk. Partial measures like that would never do. The GK and sewer drain covers would need to be immediately secured as well! Lack of manpower is NP. There were always TSBD employees who could help. (Heck. At least one of them was about to dissmiss himself unilaterally anyhow because he figured there was no more work to be done.)

[Bud]

<snicker> Glad you liked it, Jean!

[curtjester1]

> http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol...
>

I couldn't make any quality discernment on your first one, even when I
zoomed it as high as it would go. I just copied this, and it was a
little clearer.

http://www.dealey.org/updown.pdf

>           The stairway the women descended is at the lower right, the
> elevator is the big X nearby, the loading dock is at the bottom.
> Adams had to pass by that elevator to get to any rear exit.
>
>

I see that. I was looking for some doorway right by where the
stairwell ends, but can't really tell. Adams said she went out to the
Houston St. dock, so I'll take your word for it.

>
> > The girls went out the door to the Houston dock area, if that helps.
>
> > If you read Marrion Baker's testimony, he will say that there was
> > already a crowd in and coming in when he arrived there.
>
>           That was in the lobby at the FRONT of the building, not near
> the back stairway.  Two different areas.
>
>

True. They could have been navigating more directly across though,
and if T and B were somewhere beginning their way, would have been
coming diagonally across the room.

>
> > >            The WC reconstruction estimated that T&B reached the
> > > lunchroom in approximately 90 seconds -- not "reached the elevator,"
> > > mind you,  but the 2nd floor.
>
> > True, but they weren't very precise with events leading up to it.  How
> > long did it take Baker to notice pigeons leaving and decide to go to
> > the building.  It was said he stopped and looked down Elm St. before
> > he did anything.  He had to ride his motorcyle about 200 feet, park
> > it, go through a crowd to get to the entrance,
>
>          Baker can be seen running toward the building in the Couch film,
> and it apparently did take him a little bit longer to get to the building
> than the reenactment showed.  Still, I can't believe Adams was already
> outside before T&B had even reached the elevator.
>

Not me, as I see Mrs. Garner giving the impression that T & B came up
later and the girls went down quickly.

> > run into Truly, be
> > taken through some doorways inside the lobby area where there was a
> > little mishap with the latch, then proceed to the elevators where
> > Truly "pushed the buttons twice", and "called up twice".
>
> > vs. a brief wait at the window and leaving as the motorcade approached
> > the underpass.  asking and getting styles to move, running across the
> > 4th floor to the back stairwell, and running down the stairs.
>
>          I don't think they left as the motorcade "approached the
> underpass" because Adams said she wanted to go to the railroad yards
> where she'd seen people running, and people didn't start running that
> early.
>

People were running there immediately after the shots. That can be seen
in film. Also Styles said that people were running there and she saw
people hit the ground. Probably the Newmans, and well that happened
before they reached the Triple Underpass. When she saw that, she said,
they left. And that's what happened on the 4th and 5th floor as well,
people running across to view that area from their respective floors, very
soon.

And no one was running towards the TSBD.....

> >Michael
> > Griffith has them timed at 42 seconds, and then they were basically at
> > the door where they would just go to the outside.
>
>            Nobody "timed" them.  Michael Griffith once argued that
> Baker and Truly got to the second floor in no more than 65 seconds.
> These are just guesses.
>
>

He did give quite an array of itinerary and times, but A & S didn't
have much to do but just basically run. B & T were dealing with
introducing each other, crowds, parking, navigating doorways at the
entrance, elevator calls and pushes, stuck locks....

>
> > >            Before this book, Styles told another researcher that she
> > > believed they came down later than Adams thought.  .
>
> > She's not being forthright.  There are two besides her that went, and
> > they were much more precise.
>
>            Why argue that she's not "forthright" instead of simply
> "mistaken"?  I think Adams is mistaken, not lying.
>

It's just an opinon, that she didn't want to get any limelight. She
has two people stating that after the shots, the trek was expeditious.

>           Four women went downstairs together?  How many years later
> did the other two give their "precise" time estimates?
>
>

Four? What can you possibly be referring to?

>
> > >             Here's one way to judge Adams' time estimates, if anyone
> > > wants to look it up.  She estimated that she went back inside the
> > > building no more than 5 minutes after the last shot and that while she
> > > was outside, she overheard a police radio saying that a witness
> > > reported shots from the 4th floor.  When was that report on the police
> > > transcript?
>
> > Pretty much right on as there was great focus on the minutae in
> > Ernest's book.  That really has nothing to do with the important
> > timelines that deal with a meeting of a Truly or Baker or a sixth
> > floor descender.
>
>         The best way to judge the time imo is by looking at how Adams'
> story fits in with other events.  For instance, Adams mentioned a cop at
> the back of the building who told her to go back inside, which suggests
> that the building was being sealed off -- that didn't happen right away.
> The spectators running, the people coming in and out at the back -- all
> suggest a later time.
>
>

I'm not sure why that would be effective, other than maybe looking at
Shelley's reconstruct. How could he have seen Adams when she went
downstairs when he went outside for so long? Doesn't make close to any
sense. Ernest takes that event into consideration, and I think he was
happy with the timing and what Adams stated.

>
> > >             Did the author mention that Adams told the WC she was
> > > wearing 3-inch heels?  Try running down stairs in heels sometimes,
> > > guys
>
> > I'm sure he did.  All one has to do is go see her testimony.  It was
> > asked if she walked or ran.  She said "we both ran."
>
> > This is not to mention the added evidence found on the sixth floor
> > that would delay any shooter/descender from leaving and getting down
> > fast, if that is what they chose to do.
>
>          I think it's the other way around.  The 6th floor evidence
> pointing to Oswald is another indication Adams is wrong.

If one is objectively looking at a 6th floor descender, they aren't going
to get a quick time, as there is more time to be added with new discovery
(getting the book recommended). The sixth floor evidence doesn't point to
Oswald as latter researching shows that ordering the rifle was fabricated,
as well as Belin adding a Shelley/Lovelady account and instituting it into
testimony where Adams flattly denies it. It might be of interest to some
that the reporter Biffle came into the TSBD and heard Truly state how he
and Baker saw Oswald when they came into the building. Maybe Oswald just
went up the stairs, as they were right at the entrance, and just traversed
the 2nd floor and came into the sight of Baker where he could be seen
coming up the stairs? More plausible than people getting to the stairwell
that went all the way up to the sixth floor way before an assassin could
have escaped and heard nothing, and yet a Mrs. Garner could attest how
noisy those stairs were as she was there above them hearing their heels
agoin'?

CJ

[Jean Davison]

Okay, in that picture the big red arrow points to the elevator
T&B went to. There's an "overhead door" marked on each side of the
elevators and, further to the right, an arrow with a "4" that points to
the doorway going out to the Houston dock.

>
> >           The stairway the women descended is at the lower right, the
> > elevator is the big X nearby, the loading dock is at the bottom.
> > Adams had to pass by that elevator to get to any rear exit.
>
> I see that.  I was looking for some doorway right by where the
> stairwell ends, but can't really tell.  Adams said she went out to the
> Houston St. dock, so I'll take your word for it.
>
>
>
> > > The girls went out the door to the Houston dock area, if that helps.
>
> > > If you read Marrion Baker's testimony, he will say that there was
> > > already a crowd in and coming in when he arrived there.
>
> >           That was in the lobby at the FRONT of the building, not near
> > the back stairway.  Two different areas.
>
> True.  They could have been navigating more directly across though,
> and if T and B were somewhere beginning their way, would have been
> coming diagonally across the room.
>

Witnesses Rackley and Romack were facing the back of the TSBD during
the shooting and said they saw no one come in or out during the first few
minutes. Haygood asked a worker near the back door, who agreed with that.
Their testimony is another indication that Adams' time line is off.

>
> > > >            The WC reconstruction estimated that T&B reached the
> > > > lunchroom in approximately 90 seconds -- not "reached the elevator,"
> > > > mind you,  but the 2nd floor.
>
> > > True, but they weren't very precise with events leading up to it.  How
> > > long did it take Baker to notice pigeons leaving and decide to go to
> > > the building.  It was said he stopped and looked down Elm St. before
> > > he did anything.  He had to ride his motorcyle about 200 feet, park
> > > it, go through a crowd to get to the entrance,
>
> >          Baker can be seen running toward the building in the Couch film,
> > and it apparently did take him a little bit longer to get to the building
> > than the reenactment showed.  Still, I can't believe Adams was already
> > outside before T&B had even reached the elevator.
>
> Not me, as I see Mrs. Garner giving the impression that T & B came up
> later and the girls went down quickly.
>

The author says Garner "appeared credible and without any
reason to embellish," which actually doesn't mean much. Credible
people with no reason to lie are very often simply wrong.

> > > run into Truly, be
> > > taken through some doorways inside the lobby area where there was a
> > > little mishap with the latch, then proceed to the elevators where
> > > Truly "pushed the buttons twice", and "called up twice".
>
> > > vs. a brief wait at the window and leaving as the motorcade approached
> > > the underpass.  asking and getting styles to move, running across the
> > > 4th floor to the back stairwell, and running down the stairs.
>
> >          I don't think they left as the motorcade "approached the
> > underpass" because Adams said she wanted to go to the railroad yards
> > where she'd seen people running, and people didn't start running that
> > early.
>
> People were running there immediately after the shots.  That can be seen
> in film.  Also Styles said that people were running there and she saw
> people hit the ground.  Probably the Newmans, and well that happened
> before they reached the Triple Underpass.  When she saw that, she said,
> they left.  And that's what happened on the 4th and 5th floor as well,
> people running across to view that area from their respective floors, very
> soon.

No, people were NOT "running there immediately." The Newmans
hit the ground soon after the third shot, but this photo shows the
Newmans down but nobody yet running on the knoll:

http://jfkassassination.net/bond2.jpg

Researchers who've studied the films say the running didn't start
until about a minute later, when a crowd followed Officer Haygood up
the hill. That too would mean that Adams left the window later than
she thought.

>
> And no one was running towards the TSBD.....
>
> > >Michael
> > > Griffith has them timed at 42 seconds, and then they were basically at
> > > the door where they would just go to the outside.
>
> >            Nobody "timed" them.  Michael Griffith once argued that
> > Baker and Truly got to the second floor in no more than 65 seconds.
> > These are just guesses.
>
> He did give quite an array of itinerary and times, but A & S didn't
> have much to do but just basically run.

Only if Adams' version is correct. Styles said she was certain
they'd tried to use the nearby public elevator before going to the
rear stairs. Here's the fourth floor layout with the small elevator
on the bottom right:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10896&relPageId=37

Doesn't it make sense they'd try the easier, closer route
first? In her excitement Adams maybe forgot about this?

> B & T were dealing with
> introducing each other, crowds, parking, navigating doorways at the
> entrance, elevator calls and pushes, stuck locks....
>
>
>
> > > >            Before this book, Styles told another researcher that she
> > > > believed they came down later than Adams thought.  .
>
> > > She's not being forthright.  There are two besides her that went, and
> > > they were much more precise.
>
> >            Why argue that she's not "forthright" instead of simply
> > "mistaken"?  I think Adams is mistaken, not lying.
>
> It's just an opinon, that she didn't want to get any limelight.  She
> has two people stating that after the shots, the trek was expeditious.
>
> >           Four women went downstairs together?  How many years later
> > did the other two give their "precise" time estimates?
>
> Four?  What can you possibly be referring to?

Sorry, I misunderstood your "two besides her that went, and
they were much more precise." Who else "went"?

>
>
>
> > > >             Here's one way to judge Adams' time estimates, if anyone
> > > > wants to look it up.  She estimated that she went back inside the
> > > > building no more than 5 minutes after the last shot and that while she
> > > > was outside, she overheard a police radio saying that a witness
> > > > reported shots from the 4th floor.  When was that report on the police
> > > > transcript?
>
> > > Pretty much right on as there was great focus on the minutae in
> > > Ernest's book.  That really has nothing to do with the important
> > > timelines that deal with a meeting of a Truly or Baker or a sixth
> > > floor descender.
>
> >         The best way to judge the time imo is by looking at how Adams'
> > story fits in with other events.  For instance, Adams mentioned a cop at
> > the back of the building who told her to go back inside, which suggests
> > that the building was being sealed off -- that didn't happen right away.
> > The spectators running, the people coming in and out at the back -- all
> > suggest a later time.
>
> I'm not sure why that would be effective, other than maybe looking at

> Shelley's reconstruct.  '

No, not just Shelley. If Adams saw the crowd running before
they left the window, or saw people coming in and out the back door,
this happened later than Adams thought. Even that radio broadcast
mentioning the 4th floor could've been later than the one the author
mentioned (there were two such references).

>How could he have seen Adams when she went
> downstairs when he went outside for so long?

All these time estimates, including Shelley's, are questionable
because nobody actually timed anything.

> Doesn't make close to any
> sense.  Ernest takes that event into consideration, and I think he was
> happy with the timing and what Adams stated.
>
>
>
> > > >             Did the author mention that Adams told the WC she was
> > > > wearing 3-inch heels?  Try running down stairs in heels sometimes,
> > > > guys
>
> > > I'm sure he did.  All one has to do is go see her testimony.  It was
> > > asked if she walked or ran.  She said "we both ran."
>
> > > This is not to mention the added evidence found on the sixth floor
> > > that would delay any shooter/descender from leaving and getting down
> > > fast, if that is what they chose to do.
>
> >          I think it's the other way around.  The 6th floor evidence
> > pointing to Oswald is another indication Adams is wrong.
>
> If one is objectively looking at a 6th floor descender, they aren't going
> to get a quick time, as there is more time to be added with new discovery
> (getting the book recommended).

So when and how do you think the "real shooter" got
downstairs without being seen or heard?

>The sixth floor evidence doesn't point to
> Oswald as latter researching shows that ordering the rifle was fabricated,

Disagree, the ordering was not fabricated.

> as well as Belin adding a Shelley/Lovelady account and instituting it into
> testimony where Adams flattly denies it.

No, Belin would've had to be insane to involve two other
witnesses in a scheme like that.

It's well established that memories change. Once they
change, someone's earlier account seems foreign or unfamiliar to that
person. That's not my opinion, it's what the research shows. Here's
one article, e.g.:

http://alumni.stanford.edu/get/page/magazine/article/?article_id=57592

There are many examples of how JFK witnesses' stories have
changed over the years. Somebody ought to do a study of it.

> It might be of interest to some
> that the reporter Biffle came into the TSBD and heard Truly state how he
> and Baker saw Oswald when they came into the building.  Maybe Oswald just
> went up the stairs, as they were right at the entrance, and just traversed
> the 2nd floor and came into the sight of Baker where he could be seen
> coming up the stairs?  More plausible than people getting to the stairwell
> that went all the way up to the sixth floor way before an assassin could
> have escaped and heard nothing, and yet a Mrs. Garner could attest how
> noisy those stairs were as she was there above them hearing their heels
> agoin'?

I'm not sure Biffle was quoting Truly or how accurately.

Unlike every other employee, Oswald just happened be near
the shooter's likely escape route shortly after the shooting? Is that
bad luck or what?


Jean

[Walt]

Does anybody know where Vicki Adam's affidavit can be found?
Apparently all of the women that worked with Vicki Adams gave written
affidavits on Monday 11 /25 / 63..... and I believe Barry Ernest
said that Adams had gave and signed an affidavit also.

[Anthony Marsh]

It turned up in the police car on the way to the station. Why do you
misstate historical facts to push a political agenda?

> Wow!.... So you think within an hour or so they would have traced
> the Rifle to Kleins in Chicago? Amazing!!

I never said one hour. Amazing that you would falsely claim that I did!!!!

> You're right that would have solved the crime right then.....Because
> finding the order blank and documents at Kleins in anything less than
> 48 hours would indicate that the FBI already knew about the rifle and
> where to find the paper trail.
>

Of course I'm right. That's why I mentioned it.
You are wrong to accuse the FBI of foreknowledge because it was Klein's
which found the name in the own records.

> What's that you say?..... They FBI did find the trail in only twelve
> hours. Yes, Indeed they did..... That's the point, thank you.
>

I didn't say 12 hours. Stop putting words in my mouth.

[curtjester1]

Kinda amazing that they would be so 'on guard' at that time. Were they
even thinking 'sniper'? Nobody else seemed concerned about snipers at
that time. And who is this Haygood? The cop that rode up the grassy
knoll? Seems he would haven't talked to these two til later. And what
door were they watching,....weren't there like 4 doors? And it would seem
they weren't too astute as James Worrell did see someone come out the back
door (a talked about suspect) when he left the front of the TSBD (scared)
and went around the block to the back of the TSBD? Why didn't they see
what Worrell saw? At best, this sounds ...flimsy.

>
> > > > >            The WC reconstruction estimated that T&B reached the
> > > > > lunchroom in approximately 90 seconds -- not "reached the elevator,"
> > > > > mind you,  but the 2nd floor.
>
> > > > True, but they weren't very precise with events leading up to it.  How
> > > > long did it take Baker to notice pigeons leaving and decide to go to
> > > > the building.  It was said he stopped and looked down Elm St. before
> > > > he did anything.  He had to ride his motorcyle about 200 feet, park
> > > > it, go through a crowd to get to the entrance,
>
> > >          Baker can be seen running toward the building in the Couch film,
> > > and it apparently did take him a little bit longer to get to the building
> > > than the reenactment showed.  Still, I can't believe Adams was already
> > > outside before T&B had even reached the elevator.
>
> > Not me, as I see Mrs. Garner giving the impression that T & B came up
> > later and the girls went down quickly.
>
>            The author says Garner "appeared credible and without any
> reason to embellish," which actually doesn't mean much.  Credible
> people with no reason to lie are very often simply wrong.
>

This was in document form already, which was a new find...so it's etched
in stone. What is not, is how long she stayed on the floor before going
somewhere else. She was astute enough to know what she went out on the
floor for, when she followed S & A across the room.

You can look at any film, like the Bell or Hughes film and see people
going there immediately from the south sides of Elm especially. As I
said, the people in the 4th and 5th floors weren't hesitating in going
over to get a view.

>
> > And no one was running towards the TSBD.....
>
> > > >Michael
> > > > Griffith has them timed at 42 seconds, and then they were basically at
> > > > the door where they would just go to the outside.
>
> > >            Nobody "timed" them.  Michael Griffith once argued that
> > > Baker and Truly got to the second floor in no more than 65 seconds.
> > > These are just guesses.
>
> > He did give quite an array of itinerary and times, but A & S didn't
> > have much to do but just basically run.
>
>        Only if Adams' version is correct.  Styles said she was certain
> they'd tried to use the nearby public elevator before going to the
> rear stairs.  Here's the fourth floor layout with the small elevator
> on the bottom right:
>

> http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=108...

>
>         Doesn't it make sense they'd try the easier, closer route
> first?  In her excitement Adams maybe forgot about this?
>

I doubt this, as if one is in a hurry, there not going to wait for an
elevator. Styles was interviewed by the author and there was no
mention of going to an elevator.

> > B & T were dealing with
> > introducing each other, crowds, parking, navigating doorways at the
> > entrance, elevator calls and pushes, stuck locks....
>
> > > > >            Before this book, Styles told another researcher that she
> > > > > believed they came down later than Adams thought.  .
>
> > > > She's not being forthright.  There are two besides her that went, and
> > > > they were much more precise.
>
> > >            Why argue that she's not "forthright" instead of simply
> > > "mistaken"?  I think Adams is mistaken, not lying.
>
> > It's just an opinon, that she didn't want to get any limelight.  She
> > has two people stating that after the shots, the trek was expeditious.
>
> > >           Four women went downstairs together?  How many years later
> > > did the other two give their "precise" time estimates?
>
> > Four?  What can you possibly be referring to?
>
>            Sorry, I misunderstood your "two besides her that went, and
> they were much more precise."  Who else "went"?
>
>

I don't recall me saying that, or what context I could have been
talking about if I had.

>
> > > > >             Here's one way to judge Adams' time estimates, if anyone
> > > > > wants to look it up.  She estimated that she went back inside the
> > > > > building no more than 5 minutes after the last shot and that while she
> > > > > was outside, she overheard a police radio saying that a witness
> > > > > reported shots from the 4th floor.  When was that report on the police
> > > > > transcript?
>
> > > > Pretty much right on as there was great focus on the minutae in
> > > > Ernest's book.  That really has nothing to do with the important
> > > > timelines that deal with a meeting of a Truly or Baker or a sixth
> > > > floor descender.
>
> > >         The best way to judge the time imo is by looking at how Adams'
> > > story fits in with other events.  For instance, Adams mentioned a cop at
> > > the back of the building who told her to go back inside, which suggests
> > > that the building was being sealed off -- that didn't happen right away.
> > > The spectators running, the people coming in and out at the back -- all
> > > suggest a later time.
>
> > I'm not sure why that would be effective, other than maybe looking at
> > Shelley's reconstruct.  '
>
>         No, not just Shelley.  If Adams saw the crowd running before
> they left the window, or saw people coming in and out the back door,
> this happened later than Adams thought.  Even that radio broadcast
> mentioning the 4th floor could've been later than the one the author
> mentioned (there were two such references).
>

The book is much more precise in when they left. The issue of
catching sight of any crowd going...is moot. I'm not sure about the
radio broadcast other than thinking I read the incident in the book.
I wouldn't know where to find it...as of yet.

> >How could he have seen Adams when she went
> > downstairs when he went outside for so long?
>
>        All these time estimates, including Shelley's, are questionable
> because nobody actually timed anything.
>

More than questionable. They are impossible, and Lovelady's and
Shelley's hemming and hawing are looked into and torn apart quite
extensively.

> > Doesn't make close to any
> > sense.  Ernest takes that event into consideration, and I think he was
> > happy with the timing and what Adams stated.
>
> > > > >             Did the author mention that Adams told the WC she was
> > > > > wearing 3-inch heels?  Try running down stairs in heels sometimes,
> > > > > guys
>
> > > > I'm sure he did.  All one has to do is go see her testimony.  It was
> > > > asked if she walked or ran.  She said "we both ran."
>
> > > > This is not to mention the added evidence found on the sixth floor
> > > > that would delay any shooter/descender from leaving and getting down
> > > > fast, if that is what they chose to do.
>
> > >          I think it's the other way around.  The 6th floor evidence
> > > pointing to Oswald is another indication Adams is wrong.
>
> > If one is objectively looking at a 6th floor descender, they aren't going
> > to get a quick time, as there is more time to be added with new discovery
> > (getting the book recommended).
>
>           So when and how do you think the "real shooter" got
> downstairs without being seen or heard?
>

One can only hazard guesses. The stuck elevators by the time Truly and
Baker got up to I think the 4th or 5th floor were that, that one was gone.
It would coincide with a little with what Worrell saw in the description
and what witness(es) saw through a sixth floor window.

> >The sixth floor evidence doesn't point to
> > Oswald as latter researching shows that ordering the rifle was fabricated,
>
>           Disagree, the ordering was not fabricated.
>

It's a whole new topic that didn't get any real investigative prowess til
way after. It's quite a tangled web but yes has precision research.
Most researchers aren't even aware or they don't care to get involved.
It's true for all issues of the case. People just get interested in what
they want to, and it's why the case is actually larger than one person can
even handle.

> > as well as Belin adding a Shelley/Lovelady account and instituting it into
> > testimony where Adams flattly denies it.
>
>          No, Belin would've had to be insane to involve two other
> witnesses in a scheme like that.
>

Your 'No's are so 'positive'...lol. Actually, it's quite easy to see his
manipulations as well as his crude attempts to steer and just make stuff
up as he goes along, and some stuff is blatant that one can tell he's
under the gun, and would have to be fearless in his undertaking. He knew
what they wanted to hear and have done. He was no impartial investigator.

>          It's well established that memories change.  Once they
> change, someone's earlier account seems foreign or unfamiliar to that
> person.  That's not my opinion, it's what the research shows.  Here's
> one article, e.g.:
>
>        http://alumni.stanford.edu/get/page/magazine/article/?article_id=57592
>
>         There are many examples of how JFK witnesses' stories have
> changed over the years.  Somebody ought to do a study of it.
>

Adams never changed. She always asked why Styles was never called in all
her dealings,and she was astounded and newly disallusioned when the WC
came out which she bought. Other than Garner being too old to remembe
specific's that she recalled earlier, it's understandable, and yet she is
able still to remember some quality stuff even after 80 years of age.

> > It might be of interest to some
> > that the reporter Biffle came into the TSBD and heard Truly state how he
> > and Baker saw Oswald when they came into the building.  Maybe Oswald just
> > went up the stairs, as they were right at the entrance, and just traversed
> > the 2nd floor and came into the sight of Baker where he could be seen
> > coming up the stairs?  More plausible than people getting to the stairwell
> > that went all the way up to the sixth floor way before an assassin could
> > have escaped and heard nothing, and yet a Mrs. Garner could attest how
> > noisy those stairs were as she was there above them hearing their heels
> > agoin'?
>
>            I'm not sure Biffle was quoting Truly or how accurately.
>
>           Unlike every other employee, Oswald just happened be near
> the shooter's likely escape route shortly after the shooting?  Is that
> bad luck or what?
>

Well, if it was a planned conspiracy to have a patsy the eventual
culprit....I think they would want him in the 'route'.

There are threads that infer that Oswald was on the first floor during the
shooting, and that Baker, Truly, and Fritz had to quickly get in
line...Might look up one that's like Oswald Confronted Leaving The TSBD At
The Front Door. Here's one with Greg Parker about the two separate
confrontations with Baker, one on an upper floor that can be inferred as
an escaper....

http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/jfk-f1/oswald-s-two-cop-encou...

CJ

[curtjester1]

I'm not sure where I have seen of it (not seen it). I think Vickie
mentions it in the Ernest book, but not in any detail.

CJ

[Walt]

Really?.... So you're saying that they found an ID card with Lee's
photo on it and the name Hidell in a police car?

That may be true.... was it Tippit's police car?

I definitely wasn't in Lee Oswald's pocket because the interrogators
asked him why he used the name O.H.Lee at the roominghouse ......so
they knew his name was Lee Oswald and was registered as OH Lee at the
Roominghouse but they never asked him about the name Hidell until
Saturday???

It is a FACT that the name "Hidell" first appeared on Saturday 11 /23 /
63.

[curtjester1]

> > > If one is objectively looking at a 6th floor descender, they aren't going
> > > to get a quick time, as there is more time to be added with new discovery
> > > (getting the book recommended).  The sixth floor evidence doesn't point to
> > > Oswald as latter researching shows that ordering the rifle was fabricated,
> > > as well as Belin adding a Shelley/Lovelady account and instituting it into
> > > testimony where Adams flattly denies it.  It might be of interest to some
> > > that the reporter Biffle came into the TSBD and heard Truly state how he
> > > and Baker saw Oswald when they came into the building.  Maybe Oswald just
> > > went up the stairs, as they were right at the entrance, and just traversed
> > > the 2nd floor and came into the sight of Baker where he could be seen
> > > coming up the stairs?  More plausible than people getting to the stairwell
> > > that went all the way up to the sixth floor way before an assassin could
> > > have escaped and heard nothing, and yet a Mrs. Garner could attest how
> > > noisy those stairs were as she was there above them hearing their heels
> > > agoin'?
>
> > > CJ
>
> > Does anybody know where Vicki Adam's affidavit can be found?
> > Apparently all of the women that worked with Vicki Adams gave written
> > affidavits on Monday 11 /25 / 63.....   and I believe Barry Ernest
> > said that Adams had gave and signed an affidavit also.
>
> I'm not sure where I have seen of it (not seen it).  I think Vickie
> mentions it in the Ernest book, but not in any detail.
>
> CJ

Here is some history of at least some finds of Vicki Adams and her
testimonies, Walt.

http://jfkassassinationconspiracyupdate.blogspot.com/2011/04/barry-ernest-finds-witnesses-who.html

CJ

[Anthony Marsh]

No, pay attention. I said the police car they used to transport him to
the police station.

[curtjester1]

>
> > >          I think it's the other way around.  The 6th floor evidence
> > > pointing to Oswald is another indication Adams is wrong.
>
> > If one is objectively looking at a 6th floor descender, they aren't going
> > to get a quick time, as there is more time to be added with new discovery
> > (getting the book recommended).  The sixth floor evidence doesn't point to
> > Oswald as latter researching shows that ordering the rifle was fabricated,
> > as well as Belin adding a Shelley/Lovelady account and instituting it into
> > testimony where Adams flattly denies it.  It might be of interest to some
> > that the reporter Biffle came into the TSBD and heard Truly state how he
> > and Baker saw Oswald when they came into the building.  Maybe Oswald just
> > went up the stairs, as they were right at the entrance, and just traversed
> > the 2nd floor and came into the sight of Baker where he could be seen
> > coming up the stairs?  More plausible than people getting to the stairwell
> > that went all the way up to the sixth floor way before an assassin could
> > have escaped and heard nothing, and yet a Mrs. Garner could attest how
> > noisy those stairs were as she was there above them hearing their heels
> > agoin'?
>
> > CJ
>
> Does anybody know where Vicki Adam's affidavit can be found?
> Apparently all of the women that worked with Vicki Adams gave written
> affidavits on Monday 11 /25 / 63.....   and I believe Barry Ernest
> said that Adams had gave and signed an affidavit also.

Here's the 11/24 FBI one:

http://mysite.verizon.net/restu5kb/id19.html

[Jean Davison]

Not "on guard," just watching the back of the TSBD from about
100 to 150 yards away after hearing shots from that direction. Romack came
forward because he believed Worrell's account as reported in a newspaper
was "hatched up." Rackley agreed. They didn't see a man run out the
back, or Worrell coming in their direction. You can find their testimony
and Haygood's in vol. VI or here: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/wit.htm

>And who is this Haygood?  The cop that rode up the grassy
> knoll?  Seems he would haven't talked to these two til later.

Yes, Haygood went into the railroad yards first, found
nothing, then returned to his cycle. A witness told him the shots
came from the TSBD and he called this in at 12:35, then drove to the
rear of the building.

QUOTE:

"I talked to the colored male that was standing at the door and asked him
how long he had been there, and he said he had been there some 5 minutes
or so. And I asked him if anyone had came out that door, and he said that
they had not."

UNQUOTE

>And what
> door were they watching,....weren't there like 4 doors?  And it would seem
> they weren't too astute as James Worrell did see someone come out the back
> door (a talked about suspect) when he left the front of the TSBD (scared)
> and went around the block to the back of the TSBD?  Why didn't they see
> what Worrell saw?  At best, this sounds ...flimsy.

Since there's conflicting testimony, I'm not sure Worrell saw
anyone exit the back door.

>
>
>
> > > > > >            The WC reconstruction estimated that T&B reached the
> > > > > > lunchroom in approximately 90 seconds -- not "reached the elevator,"
> > > > > > mind you,  but the 2nd floor.
>
> > > > > True, but they weren't very precise with events leading up to it.  How
> > > > > long did it take Baker to notice pigeons leaving and decide to go to
> > > > > the building.  It was said he stopped and looked down Elm St. before
> > > > > he did anything.  He had to ride his motorcyle about 200 feet, park
> > > > > it, go through a crowd to get to the entrance,
>
> > > >          Baker can be seen running toward the building in the Couch film,
> > > > and it apparently did take him a little bit longer to get to the building
> > > > than the reenactment showed.  Still, I can't believe Adams was already
> > > > outside before T&B had even reached the elevator.
>
> > > Not me, as I see Mrs. Garner giving the impression that T & B came up
> > > later and the girls went down quickly.
>
> >            The author says Garner "appeared credible and without any
> > reason to embellish," which actually doesn't mean much.  Credible
> > people with no reason to lie are very often simply wrong.
>
> This was in document form already, which was a new find...so it's etched
> in stone.  What is not, is how long she stayed on the floor before going
> somewhere else.  She was astute enough to know what she went out on the
> floor for, when she followed S & A across the room.

Are you referring to the letter saying she saw T&B come
upstairs after the women left? Being in a document doesn't mean
something is "etched in stone."

I was arguing against the claim that they left the window "as the
motorcade approached the underpass." The Bell film shows the limo leaving
the area before people started crossing the street, so it wasn't
"immediately," imo.

>
> > > And no one was running towards the TSBD.....
>
> > > > >Michael
> > > > > Griffith has them timed at 42 seconds, and then they were basically at
> > > > > the door where they would just go to the outside.
>
> > > >            Nobody "timed" them.  Michael Griffith once argued that
> > > > Baker and Truly got to the second floor in no more than 65 seconds.
> > > > These are just guesses.
>
> > > He did give quite an array of itinerary and times, but A & S didn't
> > > have much to do but just basically run.
>
> >        Only if Adams' version is correct.  Styles said she was certain
> > they'd tried to use the nearby public elevator before going to the
> > rear stairs.  Here's the fourth floor layout with the small elevator
> > on the bottom right:
>
> >http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=108...
>
> >         Doesn't it make sense they'd try the easier, closer route
> > first?  In her excitement Adams maybe forgot about this?
>
> I doubt this, as if one is in a hurry, there not going to wait for an
> elevator.  Styles was interviewed by the author and there was no
> mention of going to an elevator.

Maybe the author didn't ask?

Several years ago a post here said Styles told another
researcher, QUOTE:

>>>>

Contrary to what Vickie told the Warren Commission, she and I did NOT go
to the rear stairs within a minute or so of the shooting. First, we
lingered by the window for quite some time, trying to determine what was
going on outside. Things were very confused. Next, we made an attempt to
take the front-of-building elevator downstairs. For some reason, however,
this elevator - which, unlike the rear elevator, went only as high as the
fourth floor - did not come when we called it. It was only after trying to
call the elevator that we thought of going towards the rear stairs. And
even then we did not proceed very quickly - we were wearing high-heel
shoes!

While we were still in the office area, our view of the rear stairs was
blocked by partitions. Anyone could have come down those stairs without us
knowing about it. All this time we had absolutely no idea that shots might
have come from the Depository building. As a result, I was paying very
little attention to what was going on inside the building in those first
few minutes after the assassination.

If the Warren Report estimated that Vickie and I reached the first floor
via the rear stairs some 4 or 5 minutes after the shooting, then I'd have
to say that sounds a little conservative. If anything, it was probably
longer. I have no clear recollection of seeing Bill Shelley or Billy
Lovelady (both of whom I had a passing acquaintance with) near the rear of
the building when we reached the first floor. I have a vague recollection
of seeing them at some point around the front entrance. But it's perfectly
possible we did see them where Vickie said we did - near the freight
elevator.

.... UNQUOTE

More here:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/6110c70c39e49cde?hl=en

>
> > > B & T were dealing with
> > > introducing each other, crowds, parking, navigating doorways at the
> > > entrance, elevator calls and pushes, stuck locks....
>
> > > > > >            Before this book, Styles told another researcher that she
> > > > > > believed they came down later than Adams thought.  .
>
> > > > > She's not being forthright.  There are two besides her that went, and
> > > > > they were much more precise.
>
> > > >            Why argue that she's not "forthright" instead of simply
> > > > "mistaken"?  I think Adams is mistaken, not lying.
>
> > > It's just an opinon, that she didn't want to get any limelight.  She
> > > has two people stating that after the shots, the trek was expeditious.
>
> > > >           Four women went downstairs together?  How many years later
> > > > did the other two give their "precise" time estimates?
>
> > > Four?  What can you possibly be referring to?
>
> >            Sorry, I misunderstood your "two besides her that went, and
> > they were much more precise."  Who else "went"?
>
> I don't recall me saying that, or what context I could have been
> talking about if I had.

It's further up in this post, but it's not important.

I don't see this "blatant stuff" you mention. Belin probably
thought Adams was mistaken. So do I. But inventing testimony? No. It
would've been wildly reckless and totally unnecessary. The WC didn't even
have to call Adams to testify. Where would Ernest's theory be then?

>
> >          It's well established that memories change.  Once they
> > change, someone's earlier account seems foreign or unfamiliar to that
> > person.  That's not my opinion, it's what the research shows.  Here's
> > one article, e.g.:
>
> >        http://alumni.stanford.edu/get/page/magazine/article/?article_id=57592
>
> >         There are many examples of how JFK witnesses' stories have
> > changed over the years.  Somebody ought to do a study of it.
>
> Adams never changed.

How can you be sure? I found this DPD interview before she
testified in which she mentioned seeing Shelley and also mentioned
both an "elevator" and a "freight elevator."

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/10/1017-001.gif

> She always asked why Styles was never called in all
> her dealings,and she was astounded and newly disallusioned when the WC
> came out which she bought.  Other than Garner being too old to remembe
> specific's that she recalled earlier, it's understandable, and yet she is
> able still to remember some quality stuff even after 80 years of age.
>

How do you know it's "quality stuff"?

> > > It might be of interest to some
> > > that the reporter Biffle came into the TSBD and heard Truly state how he
> > > and Baker saw Oswald when they came into the building.  Maybe Oswald just
> > > went up the stairs, as they were right at the entrance, and just traversed
> > > the 2nd floor and came into the sight of Baker where he could be seen
> > > coming up the stairs?  More plausible than people getting to the stairwell
> > > that went all the way up to the sixth floor way before an assassin could
> > > have escaped and heard nothing, and yet a Mrs. Garner could attest how
> > > noisy those stairs were as she was there above them hearing their heels
> > > agoin'?
>
> >            I'm not sure Biffle was quoting Truly or how accurately.
>
> >           Unlike every other employee, Oswald just happened be near
> > the shooter's likely escape route shortly after the shooting?  Is that
> > bad luck or what?
>
> Well, if it was a planned conspiracy to have a patsy the eventual
> culprit....I think they would want him in the 'route'.

So they said, "Listen, Lee, be sure to go up to the
lunchroom at 12:31?" And he says, "Okay"?

>
> There are threads that infer that Oswald was on the first floor during the
> shooting, and that Baker, Truly, and Fritz had to quickly get in
> line...

So the plotters say in effect, "We want you to help frame an
innocent man for the President's murder." And they "quickly get in
line"?

>Might look up one that's like Oswald Confronted Leaving The TSBD At
> The Front Door.  Here's one with Greg Parker about the two separate
> confrontations with Baker, one on an upper floor that can be inferred as
> an escaper....
>
> http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/jfk-f1/oswald-s-two-cop-encou...

Not plausible, imo. Just one example, there were people in
the lobby when Baker met up with Truly. Nobody saw this
"confrontation" at the front door.

Jean

[David Von Pein]

So, obviously "Curt Jester" doesn't think Jean Davison even put so
much as a dent in the Adams/Styles timeline in Jean's recent aaj posts
concerning this matter. When, in fact, Jean (as usual) totally
destroys the CT version of events. I particularly enjoyed this hunk of
Jean D. common sense:

"Unlike every other employee, Oswald just happened be near the
shooter's likely escape route shortly after the shooting? Is that bad

luck or what?" -- Jean Davison; 5/4/13

[David Von Pein]

Repeating the logical (but never answered question):

How did the "real killer" manage to get downstairs right after the
assassination without being seen--by anyone?

Or maybe the real killer is still up on the sixth floor to this day --
hiding in the box that houses the "Dealey Cam".

[Anthony Marsh]

On 5/5/2013 11:01 PM, David Von Pein wrote:
>
> Repeating the logical (but never answered question):
>
> How did the "real killer" manage to get downstairs right after the
> assassination without being seen--by anyone?
>

Repeating the logical (but never answered question):

How did ANYONE manage to get downstairs right after the
assassination without being seen--by anyone else?

> Or maybe the real killer is still up on the sixth floor to this day --
> hiding in the box that houses the "Dealey Cam".
>

Maybe he mailed himself to Mexico.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 5/5/2013 11:01 PM, David Von Pein wrote:
>

So were others, so they are also suspects?

[burgundy]

Maybe the real killer wasn't on six at all. Maybe he was dressed as a
Dallas cop.

[curtjester1]

> > Kinda amazing that they would be so 'on guard' at that time.  Were they
> > even thinking 'sniper'?  Nobody else seemed concerned about snipers at
> > that time.
>
>             Not "on guard," just watching the back of the TSBD from about
> 100 to 150 yards away after hearing shots from that direction. Romack came
> forward because he believed Worrell's account as reported in a newspaper
> was "hatched up."  Rackley agreed.  They didn't see a man run out the
> back, or Worrell coming in their direction.  You can find their testimony
> and Haygood's in vol. VI or here:http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/wit.htm
>
> >And who is this Haygood?  The cop that rode up the grassy
> > knoll?  Seems he would haven't talked to these two til later.
>
>         Yes, Haygood went into the railroad yards first, found
> nothing, then returned to his cycle.  A witness told him the shots
> came from the TSBD and he called this in at 12:35, then drove to the
> rear of the building.
>
>

Ok, I'll play along here. He is somewhere with his motorcycle and
calls in about a witness about hearing shots. How long does he talk
from 12:35? Looks like he doesn't go to the back of the TSBD right
away but goes in front and starts delegating things for awhile. How
long does this take? He then goes in back of the TSBD and a fellow is
not 150 yards away but is at the door. He says he's been there circa
five minutes. So Haygood maybe gets there at what, 12:37-8?

Now, unless S & A are lying, they do eventually come out this Houston
St. dock. Certainly with the girls going down stairs before T & B go
up the stairs via proof of docmentation...that man should have seen
something......but he didn't. Logical conclusion, he wasn't at the
door before S & A went out or he was at a wrong door.

How do we know this besides the new found documentation? Styles and
Adams leave quickly as witnesses describe, between themselves and
their boss fairly quickly after the shots. They are followed out
right away as their boss is in pursuit...and they are gone down the
stairs at least out of her sight as she approaches her storage area
she wants to get something. They get down stairs by one minute, and
leave before T & B come and before one fellow can station at one door
at 12:32 They go around investigating down by the railroad yard and
get turned away, then return and it's estimated at 5 minutes. That
makes it 12:37. Styles goes back in while Adams talks to two
employees, Molina and Avery as she is by a cop with a radio. Let's
say it's 12:38. She hears that shots are from 4th floor....blah
blah. The WC states that the only transmission by a policeman about a
4th floor occurs at 12:38.

      QUOTE:
>
> "I talked to the colored male that was standing at the door and asked him
> how long he had been there, and he said he had been there some 5 minutes
> or so. And I asked him if anyone had came out that door, and he said that
> they had not."
>
> UNQUOTE
>
> >And what
> > door were they watching,....weren't there like 4 doors?  And it would seem
> > they weren't too astute as James Worrell did see someone come out the back
> > door (a talked about suspect) when he left the front of the TSBD (scared)
> > and went around the block to the back of the TSBD?  Why didn't they see
> > what Worrell saw?  At best, this sounds ...flimsy.
>
>          Since there's conflicting testimony, I'm not sure Worrell saw
> anyone exit the back door.
>
>

I'm not sure this man could guard 4 doors standing right next to one.
I do believe Worrell who is stating the truth when he first says he's
below the sixth floor window and hearing shots and seeing muzzle fire
is telling the truth. He is in the Altgens photo with him shading his
eyes and looking up at just what he states he is telling us. Before
the shots are stopping fire, he leaves, and goes down Houston to
Pacific and stays there. He heard 4 shots btw. He sees a man come
out the back of the TSBD, and gets into a running pace, describing him
and his attire which is a sport coat. Man seen in 6th floor window
before shooting wearing a sportcoat. If I'm not mistaken, the man in
the sport coat is seen going down Commerce St. where he gets in a
vehice. Time estimated after shooting...3 minutes. I'm thinking this
one door watcher isn't watching what could be many doors or possibly a
side of the building that can be construed as 'in back of the TSBD',
as I certainly believe the account of James Worrell.

>
> > > > > > >            The WC reconstruction estimated that T&B reached the
> > > > > > > lunchroom in approximately 90 seconds -- not "reached the elevator,"
> > > > > > > mind you,  but the 2nd floor.
>
> > > > > > True, but they weren't very precise with events leading up to it.  How
> > > > > > long did it take Baker to notice pigeons leaving and decide to go to
> > > > > > the building.  It was said he stopped and looked down Elm St. before
> > > > > > he did anything.  He had to ride his motorcyle about 200 feet, park
> > > > > > it, go through a crowd to get to the entrance,
>
> > > > >          Baker can be seen running toward the building in the Couch film,
> > > > > and it apparently did take him a little bit longer to get to the building
> > > > > than the reenactment showed.  Still, I can't believe Adams was already
> > > > > outside before T&B had even reached the elevator.
>
> > > > Not me, as I see Mrs. Garner giving the impression that T & B came up
> > > > later and the girls went down quickly.
>
> > >            The author says Garner "appeared credible and without any
> > > reason to embellish," which actually doesn't mean much.  Credible
> > > people with no reason to lie are very often simply wrong.
>
> > This was in document form already, which was a new find...so it's etched
> > in stone.  What is not, is how long she stayed on the floor before going
> > somewhere else.  She was astute enough to know what she went out on the
> > floor for, when she followed S & A across the room.
>
>         Are you referring to the letter saying she saw T&B come
> upstairs after the women left?   Being in a document doesn't mean
> something is "etched in stone."
>

A lot to be said about that, as such potentially damaging testimony is
not attended to. Why? They have already put in testimony that is
damaging to Victoria Adams' credibility by inserting an event that
never happened, the Shelley/Lovelady meeting...as attested by both
girls. They already lied by inserting this in testimony and we can
see why, to discredit their timelines, which btw is not part of their
original statements, and only inserted by one Leavell of DPD so Belin
can run with this at WC time. Here is a letter that not only has
correction errors by Adams, it also has this damaging timeline enigma
for the WC. What do they do? Don't call in Styles or Garner to even
try to alleviate what is part of a document that is taken by this
typist and is attested by another, through someone i believe is higher
than Belin....Rankin? and a Texas rep. or senator. Oh my oh my.

They had quite a panoramic view of the whole Plaza. Besides when
Adams and Styles got outside, it was commented by Adams that she saw
the people heading there, and decided to go where they were going.
And why wouldn't they start going as is given? Why would they want to
wait any longer? Adams never changed her original 15-30 seconds of
'getting going'. Why? because she never thought it was relevant to
do so. She did however, state it to be a lesser time when she thought
about it more precisely.

This is on the way to the stairwell for one. I know of no passenger
elevators that one calls for two. Freight elevators yes, and
passenger elevators one pushes a button. As I stated this couldn't
have been more than a blip as Garner has stated she followed right
behind the girls and when she got to the area of the stairs they were
already out of sight, with their loud heels going. As I see that, she
pushes a button, and when you push a button you get an immediate
response of an elevator mechanically operating to come.

> While we were still in the office area, our view of the rear stairs was
> blocked by partitions. Anyone could have come down those stairs without us
> knowing about it. All this time we had absolutely no idea that shots might
> have come from the Depository building. As a result, I was paying very
> little attention to what was going on inside the building in those first
> few minutes after the assassination.
>

Except eveyone who has stated that when people use the stairs, they
know it, because it is very loud...and if one is an astute reseacher
they might take this to other's who were close enough to the stairwell
to hear things.

> If the Warren Report estimated that Vickie and I reached the first floor
> via the rear stairs some 4 or 5 minutes after the shooting, then I'd have
> to say that sounds a little conservative. If anything, it was probably
> longer. I have no clear recollection of seeing Bill Shelley or Billy
> Lovelady (both of whom I had a passing acquaintance with) near the rear of
> the building when we reached the first floor. I have a vague recollection
> of seeing them at some point around the front entrance. But it's perfectly
> possible we did see them where Vickie said we did - near the freight
> elevator.
>
> .... UNQUOTE
>

>          More here:http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/6110c70c39e4...
>
My opinion is that if one can't differentiate between as she even
suggested 15-20 minutes to 15 seconds, then there is something wrong.
She is either retarded, going along with anyone especially when Adams
is dead to keep people away from getting her too involved with
harrassing timelines (she knew how Adams was harrassed), or she was
just having a good old fun bs'ing via an end run, to see how much she
could jerk their chain.

If you read the book, which can be ordered for cheap on kindle, or
even Ernest shows you how to get it for free on differing
sites...you'll see how extensive Belin goes to spend time on this
issue and to subvert it. The WC was noted for not calling key
witnesses. Why wouldn't you call people that were directly in the
path of the accused and could be the most important witnesses in the
case? They called B & T and Shelley and Lovelady....why not call the
others that were between the floor of shooting and the escape route to
the bottom of the TSBD witnesses???? It only stands to reason that
they would be the most important witnesses, and they were ignored,
except Adams who was not just misquoted, but had testimony inserted
that she never said, and was harassed and had them thumb their noses
at her. Ernest always had the theory because it didn't make sense
what they basically said with the timelines of Shelley, Lovelady and
Adams. Like a good researcher, he could care less about what the WC
said or did, they wanted more...and that's what he did, went for the
witnesses that researchers clamor for..Holland, Adams, and even the
family of one of the WC people because of what signals he was giving
off.

>
> > >          It's well established that memories change.  Once they
> > > change, someone's earlier account seems foreign or unfamiliar to that
> > > person.  That's not my opinion, it's what the research shows.  Here's
> > > one article, e.g.:
>
> > >        http://alumni.stanford.edu/get/page/magazine/article/?article_id=57592
>
> > >         There are many examples of how JFK witnesses' stories have
> > > changed over the years.  Somebody ought to do a study of it.
>
> > Adams never changed.
>
>         How can you be sure?  I found this DPD interview before she
> testified in which she mentioned seeing Shelley and also mentioned
> both an "elevator" and a "freight elevator."
>
> http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/10/1017-001.gif
>

Because from Leavell to Belin..it was fabricated. Look at her earlier
stuff.

> > She always asked why Styles was never called in all
> > her dealings,and she was astounded and newly disallusioned when the WC
> > came out which she bought.  Other than Garner being too old to remembe
> > specific's that she recalled earlier, it's understandable, and yet she is
> > able still to remember some quality stuff even after 80 years of age.
>
>          How do you know it's "quality stuff"?
>

Because there is only so much that one can do when the shots go off.
You can forget faces that day, but you can't forget what you did, and
that can translate into a fairly precise timeline.

> > > > It might be of interest to some
> > > > that the reporter Biffle came into the TSBD and heard Truly state how he
> > > > and Baker saw Oswald when they came into the building.  Maybe Oswald just
> > > > went up the stairs, as they were right at the entrance, and just traversed
> > > > the 2nd floor and came into the sight of Baker where he could be seen
> > > > coming up the stairs?  More plausible than people getting to the stairwell
> > > > that went all the way up to the sixth floor way before an assassin could
> > > > have escaped and heard nothing, and yet a Mrs. Garner could attest how
> > > > noisy those stairs were as she was there above them hearing their heels
> > > > agoin'?
>
> > >            I'm not sure Biffle was quoting Truly or how accurately.
>
> > >           Unlike every other employee, Oswald just happened be near
> > > the shooter's likely escape route shortly after the shooting?  Is that
> > > bad luck or what?
>
> > Well, if it was a planned conspiracy to have a patsy the eventual
> > culprit....I think they would want him in the 'route'.
>
>           So they said, "Listen, Lee, be sure to go up to the
> lunchroom at 12:31?"  And he says, "Okay"?
>
>

It's really too hard to say. It would depend on his foreknowledge
which I believe is true. If true, then he might have had some minor
role or been told not to go outside. Or maybe they told him nothing,
and found him to be a good patsy after he left the building. One of
the most glaring things not discussed in this case is the potential
for guilt and not shooting. People are always prone to be all guilty
or all innocent. The answer, I believe, lies in-between.

>
> > There are threads that infer that Oswald was on the first floor during the
> > shooting, and that Baker, Truly, and Fritz had to quickly get in
> > line...
>
>           So the plotters say in effect, "We want you to help frame an
> innocent man for the President's murder."   And they "quickly get in
> line"?
>

No, they say, especially after Oswald's death, we have our man, and
don't make any waves or else...from the FBI to the DPD to the WC....

> >Might look up one that's like Oswald Confronted Leaving The TSBD At
> > The Front Door.  Here's one with Greg Parker about the two separate
> > confrontations with Baker, one on an upper floor that can be inferred as
> > an escaper....
>
> >http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/jfk-f1/oswald-s-two-cop-encou...
>
>           Not plausible, imo.  Just one example, there were people in
> the lobby when Baker met up with Truly.  Nobody saw this
> "confrontation" at the front door.
>
>

O. Campbell, R. Truly. J. Norman all at least give damaging first-
floor type statements, as well as Biffle overhearing Truly.

CJ
                                                         Jean

[curtjester1]

Stop gossiping and cheerleading Dave. I have only just
begun.....David also avoids his embarrasment at the EF by getting so
demolished that he turns and tries to make the Truly/Baker episode
longer to save his LHO from having to come down so fast...heehee.
Just type in yer goodle, EF and The Girl On The Stairs, folks. Bad,
DVD, very bad, indeed!

CJ

[curtjester1]

On May 5, 11:01 pm, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:

Already answered in acj. I must have made him run over here..:)

CJ

[curtjester1]

I already had 3 or 4 over there...and they just keep coming, folks!

CJ