No physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia

[JUDGE HOLDEN]

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/6933246/Derek-Chauvin-Complaint.pdf

[John McAdams]

On 29 May 2020 22:45:40 -0400, JUDGE HOLDEN <john....@gmail.com>
wrote:

>https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/6933246/Derek-Chauvin-Complaint.pdf

Since people here seem to want to discuss issues like this, I'll allow
discussion for a while. Probably 60 hours. By then everybody will
have had their say, and I'll cut it off.

.John
-----------------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

[ajohnstone]

For two minutes and 53 seconds George Floyd was non-responsive yet the
police officers continued to restrain him. One of the officers suggested
moving Floyd into a different position but Chauvin refused, telling them
they were 'staying put'. One of the officers checked George Floyd's pulse
and found no pulse, but still none of the three officers holding him down
moved from their positions pinning him to the floor - or began giving him
medical assistance.

And for a better image of what taking place when three policemen are
kneeling on George Floyd see here
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8369723/New-George-Floyd-video-sho
ws-three-officers-kneeling-body.html

An African-American dies for committing a petty non-violent crime.

Perhaps you should re-read the attitude American media on the use of force
by the Hong Kong police when they confronted protests that included acts
of violence and vandalism and arson ...pot calling kettle black comes to
mind , as does, do as I say not what I do.

[JUDGE HOLDEN]

I wonder if the weight of the cops on his back contributed to his death. I
was surprised by the autopsy findings. It looked to me like Chauvin was
applying a chokehold with his knee. How can Chauvin be guilty if there is
no indication of strangulation?

[Anthony Marsh]

On 5/30/2020 7:02 PM, ajohnstone wrote:
> For two minutes and 53 seconds George Floyd was non-responsive yet the
> police officers continued to restrain him. One of the officers suggested
> moving Floyd into a different position but Chauvin refused, telling them
> they were 'staying put'. One of the officers checked George Floyd's pulse
> and found no pulse, but still none of the three officers holding him down
> moved from their positions pinning him to the floor - or began giving him
> medical assistance.
>
> And for a better image of what taking place when three policemen are
> kneeling on George Floyd see here

> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8369723/New-George-Floyd-video-sho=

> ws-three-officers-kneeling-body.html
>
> An African-American dies for committing a petty non-violent crime.
>
> Perhaps you should re-read the attitude American media on the use of force
> by the Hong Kong police when they confronted protests that included acts
> of violence and vandalism and arson ...pot calling kettle black comes to
> mind , as does, do as I say not what I do.
>

Well, that's kinda different. First, they are the same race, more or less.
Second, they are an admitted dictatorship. They do not pretend to be a
Democracy with laws.

BTW, for the record, the only ones critical of the Hong atrocities were
the Liberals. Trump did not dare to criticize them at the time.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/04/politics/trump-xi-hong-kong-protests/index.html

In fact Trump now wants to cut off relations with Hong Kong.
He got confused and thought someone said King Kong.

BTW, Trump is in debt to the Bank of China for a few hundred million
dollars and plans to not pay up.

[jecorb...@yahoo.com]

On Friday, May 29, 2020 at 10:51:13 PM UTC-4, John McAdams wrote:
> On 29 May 2020 22:45:40 -0400, JUDGE HOLDEN <john....@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/6933246/Derek-Chauvin-Complaint.pdf
>
> Since people here seem to want to discuss issues like this, I'll allow
> discussion for a while. Probably 60 hours. By then everybody will
> have had their say, and I'll cut it off.
>

I figured since Michael Baden got involved, it at least had a remote
connection to the JFK assassination. That's why I started the other
thread.

[jecorb...@yahoo.com]

On Saturday, May 30, 2020 at 7:02:54 PM UTC-4, ajohnstone wrote:
> For two minutes and 53 seconds George Floyd was non-responsive yet the
> police officers continued to restrain him. One of the officers suggested
> moving Floyd into a different position but Chauvin refused, telling them
> they were 'staying put'. One of the officers checked George Floyd's pulse
> and found no pulse, but still none of the three officers holding him down
> moved from their positions pinning him to the floor - or began giving him
> medical assistance.
>
> And for a better image of what taking place when three policemen are
> kneeling on George Floyd see here
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8369723/New-George-Floyd-video-sho
> ws-three-officers-kneeling-body.html
>
> An African-American dies for committing a petty non-violent crime.
>

We don't even know if he committed a crime. Somebody else might have given
him the funny money and he passed it on without realizing it was phony.
I'm not sure what the law is but I have to believe it's not a crime unless
you knowingly pass counterfeit money. Otherwise anyone of us might someday
be guilty of passing counterfeit money. For all I know, I've already done
it.

Before posting the above I decided to google for the answer.

https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/resources/can-i-be-charged-with-using-counterfeit-money-if-i-di

It appears I am correct that criminal intent is required for the passing
of counterfeit money to be a crime. If the person who passed the funny
money wasn't aware it was counterfeit, than they were the victim of fraud,
not the one committing the fraud. The federal statute requires criminal
intent and the two examples of state laws given required the same. I'm
guessing that is true in all 50 states and DC.

[jecorb...@yahoo.com]

I think it's a pretty safe bet that had the cop not knelt on his neck for
almost 9 minutes, George Floyd would be alive today. I suppose it's
possible he just happened to have a heart attack while the cop was
kneeling on his neck, but I if were a defense lawyer, I wouldn't want to
make that argument to the jury.

I can't remember exactly how the statute reads, but I believe it says if
someone acts recklessly with wanton disregard for the safety of another,
that person can be charged with Murder 3 or Manslaughter which is what was
charged. I think it would be a stretch to argue for Murder 2 which
requires the state to prove Chauvin intended to kill Floyd.

[Bud]

On Saturday, May 30, 2020 at 7:02:54 PM UTC-4, ajohnstone wrote:

> For two minutes and 53 seconds George Floyd was non-responsive yet the
> police officers continued to restrain him. One of the officers suggested
> moving Floyd into a different position but Chauvin refused, telling them
> they were 'staying put'. One of the officers checked George Floyd's pulse
> and found no pulse, but still none of the three officers holding him down
> moved from their positions pinning him to the floor - or began giving him
> medical assistance.
>
> And for a better image of what taking place when three policemen are
> kneeling on George Floyd see here
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8369723/New-George-Floyd-video-sho
> ws-three-officers-kneeling-body.html
>
> An African-American dies for committing a petty non-violent crime.

Look at the dishonest phrasing. The cops were called because of the
crime this guy committed. The guy died because of his health issues,
brought on by his lifetime of abusing his body and neglecting his health.

It wasn`t the knee of his neck that killed him, yet that lie won`t die.
The stress of the arrest caused him to die because his health was poor,
but the arrest was the result of the crime he committed.

Yes, the cops should have handled it better, and yes, they should be
held accountable. But it was framed by the media from the beginning on
term guaranteed to heighten tension and anger, the false narrative that
"the cops knee of his neck choked him to death" was fed to the public by
the media, and many still believe this lie.

> Perhaps you should re-read the attitude American media on the use of force
> by the Hong Kong police when they confronted protests that included acts
> of violence and vandalism and arson ...pot calling kettle black comes to
> mind , as does, do as I say not what I do.

Remember I wrote this in our discussions about guns...

"Like the LA riots? The Ferguson riots? These occurred just because
people didn`t like something. What happens when reasons to be upset are
more tangible and close to home? These people will passively sit home,
they won`t act out in any way? Are you sure? Are the people who don`t
share your optimism wrong? Time will tell. But I will tell you one thing,
it is better to have a gun and not need it than to need a gun and not have
it."

Rioters just looted my local Walmart. Many US cities are burning.
Lawless ness is everywhere. Just because something happened that people
didn`t like. The media has stoked the coals and got the results it wanted.

[Bud]

I don`t think that is true. I think the stress of the arrest caused a
heart attack, and it is quite possible that no matter what they did the
results would have been the same. They aren`t paramedics and they don`t do
stress tests before arresting someone. But it did look very bad, so bad
that the cops got all the blame for what could very well have been an
existing condition.

[JUDGE HOLDEN]

Same race? I thought you lefties believe that race is a social construct?

[JUDGE HOLDEN]

Caller: Um someone comes our store and give us fake bills and we realize
it before he left the store, and we ran back outside, they was sitting on
their car. We tell them to give us their phone, put their (inaudible)
thing back and everything and he was also drunk and everything and return
to give us our cigarettes back and so he can, so he can go home but he
doesn't want to do that, and he's sitting on his car cause he is awfully
drunk and he's not in control of himself.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/28/us/minneapolis-george-floyd-911-calls/index.html

[ajohnstone]

So another African-American dies and the argument is now framed as it was
an isolated incident, a mistake, an aberration or an exception. It was not
systemic of institutional racism.

But truth is the killing of George Floyd reawakened outrage over years of
deaths of African-Americans at the hands of police or by self-appointed
guardians of law and order like the McMichaels, renewing long-standing
accusations of prejudice.

The repression which African-Americans has gone on for so long that it
always periodically erupts. For too long have they been denied the vote,
subjected to a host of indignities and restraints that, in some states,
the murder of an African-American counts for little, as in the case of the
shooting of Ahmaud Arbery by vigilantes.

After more than 300 years of the USA abusing African-Americans in every
way imaginable, of course anger and rage is inevitable. As Malcolm X said
its "chickens coming home to roost" (originally referring to the
assassination of JFK, just to remain on topic)

What if instead of militarizing the police forces local law enforcement
acted such as in Flint where an alternative to aggressive police tactics
as a local sheriff and his fellow officers laid down their riot gear and
joined with those members of the community who came out to voice their
outrage and sorrow.

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2020/05/31/i-took-helmet-and-laid-batons-down-michigan-sheriff-and-police-didnt-disperse-their

And for other Army veterans to follow the example of appealing to their
brothers-in-arms in an open letter to the Minnesota National Guard
“We urge you to have the courage to do the right thing. Refuse
activation orders. No amount of property is worth a single human life. Are
you really prepared to carry out the violence President Trump threatened
against fellow Minnesotans? We ask that you stand up for Black lives by
standing down.”

http://inthesetimes.com/article/22554/anti-war-veterans-national-guard-george-floyd-police-minneapolis

"They aren`t paramedics and they don`t do stress tests before arresting
someone."

Yet they took his pulse and found none, but for almost 3 minutes more did
not ease their restraint on a dead man who apparently must have been still
resisting arrest. Or did the police thing George Floyd was playing
possum!!

[John McAdams]

On 1 Jun 2020 12:24:53 -0400, ajohnstone <alanjjo...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

>So another African-American dies and the argument is now framed as it was
>an isolated incident, a mistake, an aberration or an exception. It was not
>systemic of institutional racism.
>
>But truth is the killing of George Floyd reawakened outrage over years of
>deaths of African-Americans at the hands of police or by self-appointed
>guardians of law and order like the McMichaels, renewing long-standing
>accusations of prejudice.
>

You seem to think that cops are gunning down black people in large
numbers.

In fact, in recent years, only about 25-26% of suspects shot and
killed by police have been black.

Since blacks are only 13% of the population, this is a disproportion,
and the disproportion would translate as discrimination IF BLACK
SUSPECTS ARE NO MORE DANGEROUS TO COPS THAN WHITE SUSPECTS.

But we have data on that.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/01/09/are-black-or-white-offenders-more-likely-to-kill-police/

<quote on>

There were 511 officers killed in felonious incidents and 540
offenders from 2004 to 2013, according to FBI reports. Among the total
offenders, 52 percent were white, and 43 percent were black.

The FBI provided The Fact Checker a detailed database of victim
officers and offenders in felonious incidents, accidental deaths and
assaults with injury, from the early 1980s.

From 1980 to 2013, there were 2,269 officers killed in felonious
incidents, and 2,896 offenders. The racial breakdown of offenders over
the 33-year period was on par with the 10-year period: 52 percent were
white, and 41 percent were black.

<end quote>

So blacks are *relatively* more dangerous to cops, than cops are to
black suspects.

.John
-----------------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

[JUDGE HOLDEN]

George Floyd was in a porno. I kid you not. It's on a website called Porn
Hub. It's him.

[jecorb...@yahoo.com]

Suppose someone is standing on the edge of a cliff, I give them a push,
and that person falls to their death, would it be a very compelling
argument that my push isn't what killed him but the fall. Even better, I
could claim it was the sudden stop that killed them. My little push didn't
cause his death.

The cop committed a reckless act by keeping his knee on Floyd's neck long
after Floyd was telling him he couldn't breathe. Had Chauvin let up the
first time Floyd told him he couldn't breathe I could excuse what he did,
but for him to continue that for nearly nine minutes is inexcusable. He
should be prosecuted. The other three officers were culpable as well.
Whether there was a crime they committed is something the prosecutor will
have to figure out. He knows the nuances of Minnesota law better than I
do. Their firing was certainly justifiable.

[ajohnstone]

Your claim that African-Americans proportionately kill more police than
other groups, can perhaps be explained that they are targeted by police
more often and therefore there exists more law enforcement interaction
between them, not that they are more likely per se to kill police.

But to be clear - from your link the conclusion reached is:

"More white offenders than black offenders killed police between 1980 and
2013. Police officers were killed in ambush attacks by just as many black
offenders as white offenders in the past three decades. There are no
simple conclusions or trends that can be gleaned from the database alone,
but it provides context that based on the raw numbers, officers are no
more likely to be killed by black offenders than white offenders."

But an interesting stat from the FBI data file is that in 2018 a
police-killer has the average height of 5 feet 10 inches tall, and the
average weight was 183 pounds.

Again concerning stats, you quote FBI stats from 1980s yet the WP
determined the FBI's tracking system undercounted fatal police shootings
by about half, because of the fact that reporting by police departments is
voluntary and many departments fail to do so. And it was only remedied
from 2015.

Another fault with the data being used is that police shooting data made
public by large cities shows that officers shoot and wound people more
often than they kill.

But of course this all brings us back to and earlier exchange I have had
on this discussion forum about America's exceptionalism that the basic
fact that gun ownership in the US is a contributory factor. In developed
countries where guns are banned, police seldom shoot and kill people. High
gun-ownership states, such as Alaska, Georgia, Idaho, Kentucky and
Louisiana, had 3.6 times more fatal police shootings than the low
gun-ownership states, such as Connecticut, Hawaii and Massachusetts. The
saturation of firearms in the United States is an overwhelming factor in
police shootings. Police, he said, tend to feel more threatened because so
many people are armed. This is a characteristic of American life, which
creates a unique set of hazards to police and more killings by police.

But of course George Floyd had already been searched and was unarmed, he
had committed a non-violent crime, it was not a one-on-one confrontation
between him and a policeman, and his death could have been very easily
avoided by a different approach by the police to the situation.

[jecorb...@yahoo.com]

I don't think that is a capital offense either.

The medical examiner has ruled Floyd's death a homicide. Homicide is a
broad term and includes justifiable, reckless, and negligent homicides. I
think Chauvin's actions would fall in the reckless category. That would
make it at the very least manslaughter and possibly murder 3. That finding
will be presented to a grand jury and most likely will result in an
indictment against Chauvin. Assuming the case goes to trial and is not
plea bargained, Chauvin's lawyer will have the option of challenging the
medical examiner's finding in court. If they go that route, most likely
they will bring in other experts who will offer a differing opinion and
the prosecution will cross examine those experts to cast doubt on their
opinions. Then it will be up to the jury to decide who they believe.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/medical-examiner-declares-george-floyd-death-homicide-report/ar-BB14Tvsi

[Bud]

On Monday, June 1, 2020 at 12:24:55 PM UTC-4, ajohnstone wrote:
> So another African-American dies and the argument is now framed as it was
> an isolated incident, a mistake, an aberration or an exception. It was not
> systemic of institutional racism.

Ah, it should be left to leftist to decide how it should be framed, even
though they have been lying at every turn.

The narrative that America is an evil racist place must be maintained at
all costs. Even though every white person I know was appalled by the
video. Even though the cop was quickly (over)charged and incarcerated,
this is not good enough. We need to put a system in place where the angry
mob gets to decide things, even before an autopsy is released, before
facts are gathered everyone should riot based on their flawed and
incomplete opinions of what occurred.

And whatever you do, don`t look at George Floyd, and see if he did
anything that might have contributed to his death. He is likely very drunk
and trying to pass phony money, probably driving around three times the
legal limit, you know what a real tragedy would be. If he hit some kid
driving drunk, like this creature did...

https://www.fox29.com/news/da-woman-28-charged-in-fatal-multi-vehicle-crash-in-mayfair

We would have never heard about it. Only some lives matters, the ones
the left decides are important.

Fuck George Floyd, idiots don`t get to decide what lives matter to me.
This "gentile giant" who robbed a woman at gunpoint for drug money.

> But truth is the killing of George Floyd reawakened outrage over years of
> deaths of African-Americans at the hands of police or by self-appointed
> guardians of law and order like the McMichaels, renewing long-standing
> accusations of prejudice.

The problem is that when it gets to court all the lies and false
narratives of the left don`t carry any weight, it comes down to facts. The
lie that Micheal Brown had his hands up doesn`t mean anything in a court
of law. The fact that people want to ignore that Trayvon Martin attacked
Zimmerman doesn`t mean anything in a court of law. The fact that Arbery
attacked Travis McMicheal should mean something in a court of law. The
fact that the cop`s knee on the George Floyd`s neck did not cause his
death should mean something in a court of law. As long as these mobs truck
in emotionalism over facts they are going to be disappointed by the legal
system. Interesting that the left wants to return to the days of lynching
and mob rule.

> The repression which African-Americans has gone on for so long that it
> always periodically erupts. For too long have they been denied the vote,
> subjected to a host of indignities and restraints that, in some states,
> the murder of an African-American counts for little, as in the case of the
> shooting of Ahmaud Arbery by vigilantes.

Pretty stupid for someone attack someone holding a shotgun. Perhaps some
people are just too stupid to live.

> After more than 300 years of the USA abusing African-Americans in every
> way imaginable, of course anger and rage is inevitable. As Malcolm X said
> its "chickens coming home to roost" (originally referring to the
> assassination of JFK, just to remain on topic)
>
> What if instead of militarizing the police forces local law enforcement
> acted such as in Flint where an alternative to aggressive police tactics
> as a local sheriff and his fellow officers laid down their riot gear and
> joined with those members of the community who came out to voice their
> outrage and sorrow.
>
> https://www.commondreams.org/news/2020/05/31/i-took-helmet-and-laid-batons-down-michigan-sheriff-and-police-didnt-disperse-their
>
> And for other Army veterans to follow the example of appealing to their
> brothers-in-arms in an open letter to the Minnesota National Guard
> “We urge you to have the courage to do the right thing. Refuse
> activation orders. No amount of property is worth a single human life.

That is exactly why the police should start shooting these rioters. They
will get the idea that no amount of property is worth getting shot over.

> Are
> you really prepared to carry out the violence President Trump threatened
> against fellow Minnesotans? We ask that you stand up for Black lives by
> standing down.”
>
> http://inthesetimes.com/article/22554/anti-war-veterans-national-guard-george-floyd-police-minneapolis
>
> "They aren`t paramedics and they don`t do stress tests before arresting
> someone."
>
> Yet they took his pulse and found none, but for almost 3 minutes more did
> not ease their restraint on a dead man who apparently must have been still
> resisting arrest. Or did the police thing George Floyd was playing
> possum!!

Did the paramedics who came and picked him up find a pulse? Do you know,
do you care? If the paramedics found Floyd had a pulse when they got
there, what does that do to The Narrative? Nothing at all.

[JUDGE HOLDEN]

America is so racist that everyone wants to go there.

[Bud]

A simple question of causation. If the knee to the neck wasn`t what
prevented Floyd from breathing then it is just a red herring.

> The cop committed a reckless act by keeping his knee on Floyd's neck long
> after Floyd was telling him he couldn't breathe.

I agree, that is what he should have done. He definitely should have
been more attentive to his prisoner.

But Floyd`s underlying health issues were likely the fault of Floyd
himself, and I expect they were more of a contributing factor to his
demise.

[Bud]

On Monday, June 1, 2020 at 6:32:45 PM UTC-4, ajohnstone wrote:
> Your claim that African-Americans proportionately kill more police than
> other groups, can perhaps be explained that they are targeted by police
> more often

Possibly because the victims say a black person committed the crime
against them a disproportionate amount of time.

> and therefore there exists more law enforcement interaction
> between them,

Possibly because they commit a disproportionate amount of crime.

You don`t know that. You don`t know that Floyd would have died
regardless of how they treated him. The cop`s knee did not prevent him
from breathing, it was an underlying heart condition.

[recip...@gmail.com]

Does that excite you?

[JUDGE HOLDEN]

No! My sex organ is bigger than his.

[David Von Pein]

BUD SAID:

But Floyd's underlying health issues were likely the fault of Floyd
himself, and I expect they were more of a contributing factor to his
demise.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

"The autopsy shows that Mr. Floyd had no underlying medical problem that
caused or contributed to his death. He was in good health." -- Dr. Michael
Baden; June 1, 2020 [via video below]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1TS9c68VRE

So somebody's lying with regard to Floyd's health conditions. Either the
Minneapolis medical examiner....or Dr. Baden.

Who do you think is the liar, Bud?

[JUDGE HOLDEN]

Tell me super Dave. Do you think Baden is always 100 percent right? What
did Baden say about OJ Simpson's murders of Goldman and Nicole Brown
Simpson? Baden concluded that there were 2 murderers. Dave, do you think
OJ Simpson has an identical twin or did Baden get that one wrong?

[JUDGE HOLDEN]

On Tuesday, June 2, 2020 at 1:16:12 AM UTC-3, David Von Pein wrote:

David, do you think Baden was correct when he ruled Epstein's suicide a
homicide? David, do you think Baden was correct when he concluded that two
killers murdered Ron Goldman and Nicole Brown Simpson?

[JUDGE HOLDEN]

Why don't you nominate George Floyd for a Nobel Peace Prize? Barack
scumbag Obama won one for being black. Maybe they should have given Obama
a half win since he is half white.

[recip...@gmail.com]

That's what Duran Duran said, and he was exiled to classic rock radio.

[John McAdams]

On 1 Jun 2020 18:32:44 -0400, ajohnstone <alanjjo...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

>
>Your claim that African-Americans proportionately kill more police than
>other groups, can perhaps be explained that they are targeted by police
>more often and therefore there exists more law enforcement interaction
>between them, not that they are more likely per se to kill police.
>

"Targeted by police?" Or commit more crime? The data clearly show
the latter.

But the issue is *relative* disproportion. Blacks are
disproportionately killed by cops. But BY AN EVEN GREATER
DISPROPORTION they kill cops.

>But to be clear - from your link the conclusion reached is:
>
>"More white offenders than black offenders killed police between 1980 and
>2013. Police officers were killed in ambush attacks by just as many black
>offenders as white offenders in the past three decades. There are no
>simple conclusions or trends that can be gleaned from the database alone,
>but it provides context that based on the raw numbers, officers are no
>more likely to be killed by black offenders than white offenders."
>

But cops kill more whites than blacks. The issue is the
DISPROPORTION.

>But an interesting stat from the FBI data file is that in 2018 a
>police-killer has the average height of 5 feet 10 inches tall, and the
>average weight was 183 pounds.
>
>Again concerning stats, you quote FBI stats from 1980s yet the WP
>determined the FBI's tracking system undercounted fatal police shootings
>by about half, because of the fact that reporting by police departments is
>voluntary and many departments fail to do so. And it was only remedied
>from 2015.
>

But how would that change the numbers?

>Another fault with the data being used is that police shooting data made
>public by large cities shows that officers shoot and wound people more
>often than they kill.
>

But it would involve some odd assumptions to think the numbers for
wounding are different from the numbers for killing.

>But of course this all brings us back to and earlier exchange I have had
>on this discussion forum about America's exceptionalism that the basic
>fact that gun ownership in the US is a contributory factor. In developed
>countries where guns are banned, police seldom shoot and kill people. High
>gun-ownership states, such as Alaska, Georgia, Idaho, Kentucky and
>Louisiana, had 3.6 times more fatal police shootings than the low
>gun-ownership states, such as Connecticut, Hawaii and Massachusetts. The
>saturation of firearms in the United States is an overwhelming factor in
>police shootings. Police, he said, tend to feel more threatened because so
>many people are armed. This is a characteristic of American life, which
>creates a unique set of hazards to police and more killings by police.
>

A lot of things are different in the "high gun ownership states."

And do you believe that people would turn in their guns if my some
miracle the Congress outlawed firearms.

Not only would the thugs keep theirs, law abiding citizens would
engage in massive civil disobedience.

.John
-----------------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

[Marcus Hanson]

On Tuesday, June 2, 2020 at 3:27:13 AM UTC+10, John McAdams wrote:

> Since blacks are only 13% of the population, this is a disproportion,
> and the disproportion would translate as discrimination IF BLACK
> SUSPECTS ARE NO MORE DANGEROUS TO COPS THAN WHITE SUSPECTS.
>
> But we have data on that.
>
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/01/09/are-black-or-white-offenders-more-likely-to-kill-police/
>
> <quote on>
>
> There were 511 officers killed in felonious incidents and 540
> offenders from 2004 to 2013, according to FBI reports. Among the total
> offenders, 52 percent were white, and 43 percent were black.
>
> The FBI provided The Fact Checker a detailed database of victim
> officers and offenders in felonious incidents, accidental deaths and
> assaults with injury, from the early 1980s.
>
> From 1980 to 2013, there were 2,269 officers killed in felonious
> incidents, and 2,896 offenders. The racial breakdown of offenders over
> the 33-year period was on par with the 10-year period: 52 percent were
> white, and 41 percent were black.
>
> <end quote>
>
> So blacks are *relatively* more dangerous to cops, than cops are to
> black suspects.
>
> .John
> -----------------------
> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

And the Left would denounce you for having the "audacity" to point this
out. Yet,former British PM Tony Blair,of the left-of-centre Labour
Party,stated that knife crime was essentially a black community problem:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/6542149.stm

It makes no sense to decry him as racist.If he had said,for example,that
most corporate fraud was committed by white men , I would accept that. I
would have no choice,as it is true.

Who would have guessed this tragic , unnecessary death would lead to
rioting and looting? Rhetorical question - anyone with a brain knew what
would happen. Kudos to Terence Floyd for condemning the inexcusable
criminal reaction, perpetrated by blacks AND whites.And probably a few
shades in between.

[ajohnstone]

"You don`t know that Floyd would have died regardless of how they treated
him. The cop`s knee did not prevent him from breathing, it was an
underlying heart condition."

Yes we do know both from the official and independent autopsies.

He died while under restraint, not later in the ambulence or hospital. You
claim that it is unknown that police treatment of him was not a factor is
rebutted

The findings of the two doctors show that Floyd's death was "homicide
caused by asphyxia due to neck and back compression that led to a lack of
blood flow to the brain."

Baden also refuted the idea that Floyd had coronary artery disease but
unfortunately he did not possess all the medical data.

The Hennepin County Medical Examiner's Office said the cause of death was
listed as “cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement
subdual, restraint and neck compression.”

NYC's stop and frisk which would be the evidence of the number of
confrontations with the police which would skew the statistics that
McAdams presented. Figures according to the NYPD over the years were
consistently African-Americans stopped approaching 60% of the time,
Latinos about 30% and whites 10% or under,

The USA has lost all its moral high ground when it comes to the
condemnation of the Chinese State's repression of the Hong Kong
protesters. Or of the Iranian theocrats and the many more authoritarian
regimes around the world.

[John McAdams]

On 2 Jun 2020 11:12:34 -0400, ajohnstone <alanjjo...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

>
>NYC's stop and frisk which would be the evidence of the number of
>confrontations with the police which would skew the statistics that
>McAdams presented. Figures according to the NYPD over the years were
>consistently African-Americans stopped approaching 60% of the time,
>Latinos about 30% and whites 10% or under,
>

Which proves what?

Do you not understand (or will you not admit) that blacks commit crime
at a far greater rate than whites?

From which is would follow that blacks do things that might draw the
legitimate interest of a cop more often than whites?

And what sort of people are most likely to be victimized by black
crime? Do you somehow think it's whites?

>The USA has lost all its moral high ground when it comes to the
>condemnation of the Chinese State's repression of the Hong Kong
>protesters. Or of the Iranian theocrats and the many more authoritarian
>regimes around the world.
>

That is an absurd statement.

Your anti-Americanism is badly distorting your judgment.

.John
-----------------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

[jecorb...@yahoo.com]

The knee to the neck both restricted Floyd's breathing and the blood flow
to his brain causing him to go into cardiac arrest. Both the Hennepin
County Medical Examiner and Dr. Michael Baden have agreed it was a
homicide.

I go back to my analogy of a person standing on the edge of a cliff and I
push him off. It wouldn't be much of a defense for me to say his death was
primarily due to standing too close to the edge of a cliff. By trying to
shift the blame for Floyd's death to his poor health choices, you are
essentially doing the same thing.

[Bud]

What I suppose what I would do if I was this cop`s defense lawyer is
subpoena all of Floyd`s medical records. And that will have a history of
his blood pressure and any signs of hypertension, and if he was ever on
blood pressure medicine. I think I have a idea what they are going to
find.

[JUDGE HOLDEN]

Duran Duran was not a he. Duran Duran was a group of musicians. Are you
thinking of Roberto Duran?

[JUDGE HOLDEN]

The abrasions on the left side of George Floyd’s face and shoulder
showed how hard he was pressed against the pavement.

[Bud]

Ruling it a homicide doesn`t tell you much...

"A homicide requires only a volitional act by another person that
results in death, and thus a homicide may result from accidental,
reckless, or negligent acts even if there is no intent to cause harm."

If they just cuff him and he has a heart attack, that would still be a
homicide.

The reports differ greatly on cause of death, one say asphyxia
(Baden`s), the other says heart attack, no signs of asphyxia (the medical
examiner).

> I go back to my analogy of a person standing on the edge of a cliff and I
> push him off. It wouldn't be much of a defense for me to say his death was
> primarily due to standing too close to the edge of a cliff. By trying to
> shift the blame for Floyd's death to his poor health choices, you are
> essentially doing the same thing.

Police arrest people, and that can be stressful. Stress triggers heart
attacks.

[Anthony Marsh]

o, silly.

> results would have been the same. They aren`t paramedics and they don`t do
> stress tests before arresting someone. But it did look very bad, so bad
> that the cops got all the blame for what could very well have been an
> existing condition.
>

Well, they could have shot him or beat him to death.

>> I suppose it's
>> possible he just happened to have a heart attack while the cop was

Read the damn autopsy. Listen to the docor. He explained it.
You want to volunteer to test your hypothesis? It's OK if I kneel on
your throat?

>> kneeling on his neck, but I if were a defense lawyer, I wouldn't want to
>> make that argument to the jury.
>>

Whose defefense lawyer?

>> I can't remember exactly how the statute reads, but I believe it says if
>> someone acts recklessly with wanton disregard for the safety of another,
>> that person can be charged with Murder 3 or Manslaughter which is what was
>> charged. I think it would be a stretch to argue for Murder 2 which
>> requires the state to prove Chauvin intended to kill Floyd.

No. Read the damn law.

>
>

[Anthony Marsh]

I think they tried that defense in the Julius Caesar assasssination. They
said Caesar lunged at them and accidentally stabbed himself on their
knives. 27 times! Yeah, that's it!

[Bud]

On Tuesday, June 2, 2020 at 11:12:36 AM UTC-4, ajohnstone wrote:
> "You don`t know that Floyd would have died regardless of how they treated
> him. The cop`s knee did not prevent him from breathing, it was an
> underlying heart condition."
>
> Yes we do know both from the official and independent autopsies.

How do you suppose an autopsy can tell you exactly when a heart attack
starts? Was he hooked up to an EKG? The complaint against the Derek
Chauvin says this...

"The officers made several attempts to get Mr. Floyd in the backseat of
squad 320 from the driver’s side. Mr. Floyd did not voluntarily
get in the car and struggled with the officers by intentionally falling
down, saying he was not going in the car, and refusing to stand still. Mr.
Floyd is over six feet tall and weighs more than 200 pounds. While
standing outside the car, Mr. Floyd began saying and repeating that he
could not breathe. The defendant went to the passenger side and tried to
get Mr. Floyd into the car from that side and Lane and Kueng assisted. The
defendant pulled Mr. Floyd out of the passenger side of the squad car at
8:19:38 p.m. and Mr. Floyd went to the ground face down and still
handcuffed. "

The heart attack started before Floyd the Landlord ever went to the
ground.

> He died while under restraint, not later in the ambulence or hospital. You
> claim that it is unknown that police treatment of him was not a factor is
> rebutted

That wasn`t the claim. I said this...

"You don`t know that Floyd would have died regardless of how they treated
him."

And this is still true.

> The findings of the two doctors show that Floyd's death was "homicide
> caused by asphyxia due to neck and back compression that led to a lack of
> blood flow to the brain."

Actually the medical examiner found he died of "cardiopulmonary arrest",
and that there was "no physical findings that support a diagnosis of
traumatic asphyxia or strangulation."

> Baden also refuted the idea that Floyd had coronary artery disease but
> unfortunately he did not possess all the medical data.

And that will bite him in the ass when he gets on the stand and they
show Floyd the Landlord`s medical history of heart problems, you wait and
see.

> The Hennepin County Medical Examiner's Office said the cause of death was
> listed as “cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement
> subdual, restraint and neck compression.”
>
> NYC's stop and frisk which would be the evidence of the number of
> confrontations with the police which would skew the statistics that
> McAdams presented. Figures according to the NYPD over the years were
> consistently African-Americans stopped approaching 60% of the time,
> Latinos about 30% and whites 10% or under,

Lets see the breakdown on guns found.

[Mark]

Sooner or later the wingers are going to say something like that. They
can't seem to help themselves.

America is one of the most self-critical, self-correcting nations.

To declare that we have lost "moral high ground" to Chinese Communists and
Iranian Mullahs is, well, idiotic. Mark

[Anthony Marsh]

Your punctuaion is off at the end of that sentence. Why the comma at
the end?

[Anthony Marsh]

He is a real forensensic pathologist.
Did he say OJ was innocent?
Even I said OJ was guilty the next day. Even to my black friends.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 6/2/2020 10:02 AM, JUDGE HOLDEN wrote:

Yes. Why did you say suicide when you know it was murder? Do you know
the murder personally?

I like how you don't answer questions. Very much like someone else here.

[Anthony Marsh]

If you did that, you wouldn't be a laawyer. You'd be a troll.

[recip...@gmail.com]

I'm not beatifying him. But what does it matter if he did a porno? It's
not like he died from penis overexposure. He ain't the most sympathetic of
characters, but I see no point in obsessively trying to villify him.

[recip...@gmail.com]

20 years before Duran Duran was a they, he was a him.

[David Von Pein]

Decide for yourself, Mr. Anonymous. This [below] is some of my favorite
testimony from the O.J. trial. I like listening to Baden speak (even
though all JFK CTers hate his guts with a passion, of course)....

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7mfgxw3rNkzeU5yQVFjOW1GOHM/view

[David Von Pein]

You just like to bash people, don't you Mr. Anonymous? Doesn't seem to
matter who it is. smh

[Bud]

He fell to the pavement.

[David Von Pein]

BUD SAID (INCREDIBLY):

If they just cuff him and he has a heart attack, that would still be a
homicide.

DVP SAID:

WTF? Why are you spouting such stupid things?

[JUDGE HOLDEN]

Do you mean Durand Durand from Barbarella?

[JUDGE HOLDEN]

You bashed Bud. You bashed Trump on your website with that unfunny
cartoon.

[JUDGE HOLDEN]

Baden said that Ron Goldman could have struggled for up to 15 minutes. Do
you agree Von Pein? Shaking my head.

[ajohnstone]

Your original claim was that African-Americans are more a threat to police
than whites and that the statistics showed that. I place that figure into
context. If police confront a section of the population almost 6 times as
often, then there will be understandably more chance of violence
occurring.

As for crime rates - marijuana usage among whites and blacks reflect their
populations but convictions however do not mirror that with blacks having
higher rates of arrest and increased sentencing punishment. But i won't
dispute that overall crime committed by African-Americans is high but it a
lot more complicated than race and the simplistic tried and tested
solutions have failed.

Having been brought up in the British equivalent of the projects, i'm only
too aware that the majority of victims of crime are within that very same
community. I'm not anti-American. But I am anti-capitalist and recognise
all governments as what Marx called "the executive committee of the ruling
class". I'm against my own and all other countries governments. I merely
pointed out that the domestic and foreign policies of America, and I
include both Republican and Democratic administrations Obama, Trump or be
it the hypocrit Biden (who was responsible for the high incarceration
rates of African-Americans) are not in the interests of working people,
either in America or abroad and what the American state does is readily
used by other nations as justification for their injustice.

It is not absurd to make comparisons with Beijing's suppression of Hong
Kong protesters. So far they have not had their president threaten to
deploy the regular army. They have held back from deploying their
equivalent of the National Guard. People can rightly accuse the USA of
exercising double standards but it doesn't mean they agree with the
Chinese government. And if you believe I apply double standards I refer
you to an article I wrote on the subject and I give the same advice
offered to Hong Kongers to the protesters in the USA - violence is
counter-productive.

https://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/socialist-standard/2010s/2019/no-1383-november-2019/material-world-hong-kong/

[JUDGE HOLDEN]

You bashed Trump Mr. Von Pein. I will bash anyone I damn well want. When
are you going to thank me for the Mark Lane vs Liebeler debate. I posted
it on this newsgroup and you put it on your website.

[JUDGE HOLDEN]

Why are you bashing Bud? I think you should apologize. Why don't give him
a Zinger burger?

[recip...@gmail.com]

The one with the big organ, so, yes.

[Bud]

Exactly, if the intent was to cause death they had better ways at their
disposal.

> >> I suppose it's
> >> possible he just happened to have a heart attack while the cop was
>
> Read the damn autopsy. Listen to the docor. He explained it.
> You want to volunteer to test your hypothesis? It's OK if I kneel on
> your throat?
>
> >> kneeling on his neck, but I if were a defense lawyer, I wouldn't want to
> >> make that argument to the jury.
> >>
>
> Whose defefense lawyer?

First you need to figure out who has been charged with crimes. You are
always playing catch up.

[Bud]

Your understanding about the role of a lawyer is on a par with your
understanding of just about everything else.

[Bud]

I`m not, you just have a flawed understanding of what constitutes
"homicide". There is no assumption of wrongdoing, even the medical report
clarified it...

But the report released later Monday by the Hennepin County Medical
Examiner's office said Floyd died of "cardiopulmonary arrest complicating
law enforcement subdual, restraint and neck compression." The manner of
death was ruled homicide, but the office noted that "is not a legal
determination of culpability or intent."

"...not a legal determination of culpability or intent."

I also found this...

"A homicide requires only a volitional act by another person that
results in death, and thus a homicide may result from accidental,
reckless, or negligent acts even if there is no intent to cause harm."

So like I said, if cop handcuffs a suspect and he goes into cardiac
arrest, this would still be found to be a homicide.

Also if I came up to you and patted you on the back, and you went into
cardiac arrest, this would also be a homicide.

[John McAdams]

On 3 Jun 2020 07:32:10 -0400, ajohnstone <alanjjo...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

>Your original claim was that African-Americans are more a threat to police
>than whites and that the statistics showed that. I place that figure into
>context. If police confront a section of the population almost 6 times as
>often, then there will be understandably more chance of violence
>occurring.
>

If cops confront black suspects more often than white suspects, that
is *both* more opportunity for the cop to kill a black person, *and*
more opportunity for the black suspect to kill a cop.

>As for crime rates - marijuana usage among whites and blacks reflect their
>populations but convictions however do not mirror that with blacks having
>higher rates of arrest and increased sentencing punishment.

You need to understand that tough penalties for crack cocaine were put
in place in the 1980s, based on the belief that crack was devastating
*black communities.*

The tough penalties were supported by many members of the
Congressional Black Caucus.

It is perfectly rational to have tough penalties for something that's
considered a threat to the community, and lesser penalties for
something considered a private vice.

>But i won't
>dispute that overall crime committed by African-Americans is high but it a
>lot more complicated than race and the simplistic tried and tested
>solutions have failed.
>

In fact, increased incarceration beginning in the late 80s and early
90s was followed by a radical decrease in crime.

>Having been brought up in the British equivalent of the projects, i'm only
>too aware that the majority of victims of crime are within that very same
>community. I'm not anti-American. But I am anti-capitalist and recognise
>all governments as what Marx called "the executive committee of the ruling
>class". I'm against my own and all other countries governments. I merely
>pointed out that the domestic and foreign policies of America, and I
>include both Republican and Democratic administrations Obama, Trump or be
>it the hypocrit Biden (who was responsible for the high incarceration
>rates of African-Americans)

Since you admit high rates of criminal offending among blacks, why
would we not expect higher rates of incarceration?

>are not in the interests of working people,
>either in America or abroad and what the American state does is readily
>used by other nations as justification for their injustice.
>
>It is not absurd to make comparisons with Beijing's suppression of Hong
>Kong protesters. So far they have not had their president threaten to
>deploy the regular army.

They don't need to. They have enough local people to crack heads.

>They have held back from deploying their
>equivalent of the National Guard. People can rightly accuse the USA of
>exercising double standards but it doesn't mean they agree with the
>Chinese government. And if you believe I apply double standards I refer
>you to an article I wrote on the subject and I give the same advice
>offered to Hong Kongers to the protesters in the USA - violence is
>counter-productive.
>
>https://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/socialist-standard/2010s/2019/no-1383-november-2019/material-world-hong-kong/
>

It's not only counter-productive, it should be suppressed by force. If
the cops can't handle it, soldiers should.

.John
-----------------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

[jecorb...@yahoo.com]

On Tuesday, June 2, 2020 at 10:02:44 PM UTC-4, Bud wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 2, 2020 at 2:03:11 PM UTC-4, jecorb...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Monday, June 1, 2020 at 10:12:17 PM UTC-4, Bud wrote:
> > > On Monday, June 1, 2020 at 3:09:01 PM UTC-4, jecorb...@yahoo.com wrote:

> > > > > results would have been the same. They aren`t paramedics and they don`t do
> > > > > stress tests before arresting someone. But it did look very bad, so bad
> > > > > that the cops got all the blame for what could very well have been an
> > > > > existing condition.
> > > > >
> > > >

> > > > Suppose someone is standing on the edge of a cliff, I give them a push,
> > > > and that person falls to their death, would it be a very compelling
> > > > argument that my push isn't what killed him but the fall. Even better, I
> > > > could claim it was the sudden stop that killed them. My little push didn't
> > > > cause his death.
> > >

> > > A simple question of causation. If the knee to the neck wasn`t what
> > > prevented Floyd from breathing then it is just a red herring.

> > >
> > > > The cop committed a reckless act by keeping his knee on Floyd's neck long
> > > > after Floyd was telling him he couldn't breathe.
> > >

> > > I agree, that is what he should have done. He definitely should have
> > > been more attentive to his prisoner.

> > >
> > > But Floyd`s underlying health issues were likely the fault of Floyd
> > > himself, and I expect they were more of a contributing factor to his
> > > demise.
> > >
> >

> > The knee to the neck both restricted Floyd's breathing and the blood flow
> > to his brain causing him to go into cardiac arrest. Both the Hennepin
> > County Medical Examiner and Dr. Michael Baden have agreed it was a
> > homicide.
>
> Ruling it a homicide doesn`t tell you much...

>
> "A homicide requires only a volitional act by another person that
> results in death, and thus a homicide may result from accidental,
> reckless, or negligent acts even if there is no intent to cause harm."
>

Exactly. Floyd's death was caused by the act of Chauvin. I think we can
rule out accidental. That leaves reckless or negligent and either would be
crimes with the former being the more serious one.

> If they just cuff him and he has a heart attack, that would still be a
> homicide.
>

Only if the medical evidence indicates the cuffing brought on the heart
attack. I think that would be a real stretch.

> The reports differ greatly on cause of death, one say asphyxia
> (Baden`s), the other says heart attack, no signs of asphyxia (the medical
> examiner).
>

Both agreed Chauvin caused the death. I haven't heard any qualified
medical examiner argue for your position although I expect Chauvin's
defense team will find one if this case goes to trial.


> > I go back to my analogy of a person standing on the edge of a cliff and I
> > push him off. It wouldn't be much of a defense for me to say his death was
> > primarily due to standing too close to the edge of a cliff. By trying to
> > shift the blame for Floyd's death to his poor health choices, you are
> > essentially doing the same thing.
>
> Police arrest people, and that can be stressful. Stress triggers heart
> attacks.

Kneeling on a person's neck for almost 9 minutes is far more stressful
than simply handcuffing them. Which do you think resulted in Floyd's
death?

[jecorb...@yahoo.com]

Was that and intentional double entendre?

[jecorb...@yahoo.com]

I have had few people argue it was an intentional homicide although
Geraldo Rivera did try to make the case that the charge should have been
murder 2 which would require Chauvin intended to kill Floyd. I happen to
think it was a reckless homicide, or at the very least a negligent one.

> > >> I suppose it's
> > >> possible he just happened to have a heart attack while the cop was
> >
> > Read the damn autopsy. Listen to the docor. He explained it.
> > You want to volunteer to test your hypothesis? It's OK if I kneel on
> > your throat?
> >
> > >> kneeling on his neck, but I if were a defense lawyer, I wouldn't want to
> > >> make that argument to the jury.
> > >>
> >
> > Whose defefense lawyer?
>
> First you need to figure out who has been charged with crimes. You are
> always playing catch up.
>

While standing still.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 6/1/2020 9:18 PM, Bud wrote:

> On Monday, June 1, 2020 at 12:24:55 PM UTC-4, ajohnstone wrote:
>> So another African-American dies and the argument is now framed as it was
>> an isolated incident, a mistake, an aberration or an exception. It was not
>> systemic of institutional racism.
>

> Ah, it should be left to leftist to decide how it should be framed, even
> though they have been lying at every turn.
>

Who's been lying all the time? The racists. But you don't care about that.

> The narrative that America is an evil racist place must be maintained
> at

Well, finally you admit it.

> all costs. Even though every white person I know was appalled by the
> video. Even though the cop was quickly (over)charged and incarcerated,

Not true. The racistd here eaid it was ok.

> this is not good enough. We need to put a system in place where the angry
> mob gets to decide things, even before an autopsy is released, before


Are you blind? We can SEE wat was done. If not for one brave 17-year-old
girl filming it, they would have gotten away with covering it up.

Oh, you mean like when they lynched blacks in the South?

> facts are gathered everyone should riot based on their flawed and
> incomplete opinions of what occurred.
>

So you are against protesting, unless it is the racists with their guns.

> And whatever you do, don`t look at George Floyd, and see if he did
> anything that might have contributed to his death. He is likely very drunk
> and trying to pass phony money, probably driving around three times the
> legal limit, you know what a real tragedy would be. If he hit some kid
> driving drunk, like this creature did...
>

That is called Blaiming the victim. You probably do the same thing when
a dirl is raped. You ask What was she wearing and why was she in that
bar anyway.

> https://www.fox29.com/news/da-woman-28-charged-in-fatal-multi-vehicle-crash-in-mayfair
>
> We would have never heard about it. Only some lives matters, the ones
> the left decides are important.
>

So your movement is called Only White Lives Matter? Got any posters yet?

> Fuck George Floyd, idiots don`t get to decide what lives matter to me.

You don't care anyway.

> This "gentile giant" who robbed a woman at gunpoint for drug money.
>

So you claim. I heard he once got a parking ticket.

>> But truth is the killing of George Floyd reawakened outrage over years of
>> deaths of African-Americans at the hands of police or by self-appointed
>> guardians of law and order like the McMichaels, renewing long-standing
>> accusations of prejudice.
>

> The problem is that when it gets to court all the lies and false
> narratives of the left don`t carry any weight, it comes down to facts. The

sually it gets covered up. If not for the video they could have coovered
this up.

> lie that Micheal Brown had his hands up doesn`t mean anything in a court
> of law. The fact that people want to ignore that Trayvon Martin
> attacked

Oh, so now you're an expert on law? How is that possible when
you didn't go to college? Night school?


> Zimmerman doesn`t mean anything in a court of law. The fact that Arbery
> attacked Travis McMicheal should mean something in a court of law. The

False.

> fact that the cop`s knee on the George Floyd`s neck did not cause his
> death should mean something in a court of law. As long as these mobs truck

The autopsy proved it. Again, if you want to volunteer, we can test this.

> in emotionalism over facts they are going to be disappointed by the legal
> system. Interesting that the left wants to return to the days of lynching
> and mob rule.
>

Why is lynching whom? Got any video?

>> The repression which African-Americans has gone on for so long that it
>> always periodically erupts. For too long have they been denied the vote,
>> subjected to a host of indignities and restraints that, in some states,
>> the murder of an African-American counts for little, as in the case of the
>> shooting of Ahmaud Arbery by vigilantes.
>

> Pretty stupid for someone attack someone holding a shotgun. Perhaps some
> people are just too stupid to live.
>

Again, blaming the victim.

>> After more than 300 years of the USA abusing African-Americans in every
>> way imaginable, of course anger and rage is inevitable. As Malcolm X said
>> its "chickens coming home to roost" (originally referring to the
>> assassination of JFK, just to remain on topic)
>>
>> What if instead of militarizing the police forces local law enforcement
>> acted such as in Flint where an alternative to aggressive police tactics
>> as a local sheriff and his fellow officers laid down their riot gear and
>> joined with those members of the community who came out to voice their
>> outrage and sorrow.
>>
>> https://www.commondreams.org/news/2020/05/31/i-took-helmet-and-laid-batons-down-michigan-sheriff-and-police-didnt-disperse-their
>>
>> And for other Army veterans to follow the example of appealing to their
>> brothers-in-arms in an open letter to the Minnesota National Guard

>> ???We urge you to have the courage to do the right thing. Refuse

>> activation orders. No amount of property is worth a single human life.
>

> That is exactly why the police should start shooting these rioters. They
> will get the idea that no amount of property is worth getting shot over.

>
>> Are
>> you really prepared to carry out the violence President Trump threatened
>> against fellow Minnesotans? We ask that you stand up for Black lives by

>> standing down.???
>>
>> http://inthesetimes.com/article/22554/anti-war-veterans-national-guard-george-floyd-police-minneapolis

>>
>> "They aren`t paramedics and they don`t do stress tests before arresting
>> someone."
>>

>> Yet they took his pulse and found none, but for almost 3 minutes more did
>> not ease their restraint on a dead man who apparently must have been still
>> resisting arrest. Or did the police thing George Floyd was playing
>> possum!!
>

> Did the paramedics who came and picked him up find a pulse? Do you know,
> do you care? If the paramedics found Floyd had a pulse when they got
> there, what does that do to The Narrative? Nothing at all.
>
>
>

[Bud]

On Wednesday, June 3, 2020 at 1:49:44 PM UTC-4, Anthony Marsh wrote:
> On 6/1/2020 9:18 PM, Bud wrote:
> > On Monday, June 1, 2020 at 12:24:55 PM UTC-4, ajohnstone wrote:
> >> So another African-American dies and the argument is now framed as it was
> >> an isolated incident, a mistake, an aberration or an exception. It was not
> >> systemic of institutional racism.
> >
> > Ah, it should be left to leftist to decide how it should be framed, even
> > though they have been lying at every turn.
> >
>
> Who's been lying all the time? The racists.

CNN is racist, too? I thought they were just liars.

> But you don't care about that.
>
> > The narrative that America is an evil racist place must be maintained
> > at
>
> Well, finally you admit it.

Finally you admit that that is the liberal narrative that must be
maintained at all cost.

> > all costs. Even though every white person I know was appalled by the
> > video. Even though the cop was quickly (over)charged and incarcerated,
>
> Not true. The racistd here eaid it was ok.

I didn`t here you say that.

> > this is not good enough. We need to put a system in place where the angry
> > mob gets to decide things, even before an autopsy is released, before
>
>
> Are you blind? We can SEE wat was done. If not for one brave 17-year-old
> girl filming it, they would have gotten away with covering it up.

Is that what you figure?

> Oh, you mean like when they lynched blacks in the South?

Now they lynch whites and you are fine with it.

> > facts are gathered everyone should riot based on their flawed and
> > incomplete opinions of what occurred.
> >
>
> So you are against protesting,

Liberals can`t tell a protest from a riot.

> unless it is the racists with their guns.
>
> > And whatever you do, don`t look at George Floyd, and see if he did
> > anything that might have contributed to his death. He is likely very drunk
> > and trying to pass phony money, probably driving around three times the
> > legal limit, you know what a real tragedy would be. If he hit some kid
> > driving drunk, like this creature did...
> >
>
> That is called Blaiming the victim. You probably do the same thing when
> a dirl is raped. You ask What was she wearing and why was she in that
> bar anyway.

If a white person shoots a black person, you just assume the white
person is a racist.

What exactly is the evidence that what we saw in the Floyd attack was
cops motivated by racism? I mean *real* evidence, not your unsupported and
biased assumptions.

> > https://www.fox29.com/news/da-woman-28-charged-in-fatal-multi-vehicle-crash-in-mayfair
> >
> > We would have never heard about it. Only some lives matters, the ones
> > the left decides are important.
> >
>
> So your movement is called Only White Lives Matter? Got any posters yet?

Oh, White lives don`t matter any more. Unless maybe if it is a white
trans person who gets murdered. White opinions don`t matter any more,
either.

> > Fuck George Floyd, idiots don`t get to decide what lives matter to me.
>
> You don't care anyway.

I care about the ones the liberals can`t give a damn about. Asian
storeowners trying to make a living so they can make a better life for
their kids gunned down by black thugs, you`ll never see the liberal media
make a big deal out of one of those. Like I said, only some lives matter,
the ones the liberal media decides matter.

> > This "gentile giant" who robbed a woman at gunpoint for drug money.
> >
>
> So you claim. I heard he once got a parking ticket.

He probably had plenty of those. But he was also convicted of armed
robbery in a home invasion...'

"In 2007, Floyd was charged with armed robbery in a home invasion in
Houston, in which another man posed as a water department worker in an
attempt to gain access to a woman’s residence, according to court
documents.

When the woman realized he wasn’t actually a water department
worker, she tried to close the door. That’s when five other men
got out of a car that had just pulled up and forced their way inside.

According to charging documents, the largest man in the group, whom the
victim identified as Floyd, “forced his way inside the residence,
placed a pistol against the complainant’s abdomen, and forced her
into the living room area of the residence.”

Floyd in 2009 was sentenced to five years in prison as part of a plea deal
in the case."

https://nypost.com/2020/05/28/george-floyd-was-out-of-work-during-coronavirus-before-he-was-killed/

> >> But truth is the killing of George Floyd reawakened outrage over years of
> >> deaths of African-Americans at the hands of police or by self-appointed
> >> guardians of law and order like the McMichaels, renewing long-standing
> >> accusations of prejudice.
> >
> > The problem is that when it gets to court all the lies and false
> > narratives of the left don`t carry any weight, it comes down to facts. The
>
> sually it gets covered up. If not for the video they could have coovered
> this up.

Too bad you need evidence to convict cops, isn`t it?

And now we have plenty of video evidence of people committing crime, I`m
sure you are all for putting them behind bars.

https://6abc.com/philadelphia-looting-riot-crime-protest-george-floyd/6227458/

But since I live in a liberal city with a liberal mayor and a liberal DA
and a liberal police chief we know all these crimes will be covered up.

> > lie that Micheal Brown had his hands up doesn`t mean anything in a court
> > of law. The fact that people want to ignore that Trayvon Martin
> > attacked
>
> Oh, so now you're an expert on law?

I`m an expert on facts.

> How is that possible when
> you didn't go to college? Night school?
>
>
> > Zimmerman doesn`t mean anything in a court of law. The fact that Arbery
> > attacked Travis McMicheal should mean something in a court of law. The
>
> False.

The truth looks that way to you. The truth is like fingernails scraping
on a blackboard to liberals.

> > fact that the cop`s knee on the George Floyd`s neck did not cause his
> > death should mean something in a court of law. As long as these mobs truck
>
> The autopsy proved it.

Which one?

> Again, if you want to volunteer, we can test this.
>
> > in emotionalism over facts they are going to be disappointed by the legal
> > system. Interesting that the left wants to return to the days of lynching
> > and mob rule.
> >
>
> Why is lynching whom? Got any video?

I have violent mobs dictating events.

And it seems crime pays, money is poring in. Not for the poor folks who
had everything they worked hard for their whole lives destroyed, but fuck
them.

> >> The repression which African-Americans has gone on for so long that it
> >> always periodically erupts. For too long have they been denied the vote,
> >> subjected to a host of indignities and restraints that, in some states,
> >> the murder of an African-American counts for little, as in the case of the
> >> shooting of Ahmaud Arbery by vigilantes.
> >
> > Pretty stupid for someone attack someone holding a shotgun. Perhaps some
> > people are just too stupid to live.
> >
>
> Again, blaming the victim.

Blaming the criminal. Bad choices can lead to bad outcomes, spread the
word.

[David Von Pein]

No.

[David Von Pein]

Thank you.

[ajohnstone]

"They don't need to. They have enough local people to crack heads."

And this is perhaps the problem in the USA where community policing does
not involved the community.

In Minneapolis, 92 percent of police officers do not live in the city, but
come in from other places, including from out of state. And additional
state troopers and National Guardsmen have also been called in from
outside Minneapolis.

NYPD, the numbers are 62 percent of all police officers live inside the
city limits—but only 45 percent of white officers do.

Nationally, among the 75 cities with the largest police departments, only
35 percent of officers live in the cities they police.

Derek Chauvin keeps a house in Florida and has voted in Florida in the
last two federal elections.

Then there is the issue of the militarisation of police departments, dress
for a war and lo and behold you'll be treated as an occupying army

[John McAdams]

On 4 Jun 2020 01:24:53 -0400, ajohnstone <alanjjo...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

>"They don't need to. They have enough local people to crack heads."
>
>And this is perhaps the problem in the USA where community policing does
>not involved the community.
>
>In Minneapolis, 92 percent of police officers do not live in the city, but
>come in from other places, including from out of state. And additional
>state troopers and National Guardsmen have also been called in from
>outside Minneapolis.
>
>NYPD, the numbers are 62 percent of all police officers live inside the
>city limits—but only 45 percent of white officers do.
>
>Nationally, among the 75 cities with the largest police departments, only
>35 percent of officers live in the cities they police.
>
>Derek Chauvin keeps a house in Florida and has voted in Florida in the
>last two federal elections.

Has it occurred to you that if you force cops to live in undesirable
cities, it will be harder to recruit cops? And you have to be less
picky.

>
>Then there is the issue of the militarisation of police departments, dress
>for a war and lo and behold you'll be treated as an occupying army

So all of these places were idyllic garden spots before the cops
became "militarized," eh?

Did it ever occur to you that if you are going into a war zone you
*need* to be militarized.

.John
-----------------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

[JUDGE HOLDEN]

You are welcome. Now make sure you give Antifa and Black Lives matter an
ultimate bucket from KFC.

[David Von Pein]

Wow! That's just nuts. And I doubt very much that you are 100% accurate in
your "homicide" assessments.

[chucksch...@gmail.com]

The urban core of most US metro areas is EXACTLY what ajohnstone would
like to see become the norm for the rest of the US via his socialist
policies.

[Bud]

On Thursday, June 4, 2020 at 1:24:55 AM UTC-4, ajohnstone wrote:
> "They don't need to. They have enough local people to crack heads."
>
> And this is perhaps the problem in the USA where community policing does
> not involved the community.
>
> In Minneapolis, 92 percent of police officers do not live in the city, but
> come in from other places, including from out of state. And additional
> state troopers and National Guardsmen have also been called in from
> outside Minneapolis.

And when the rioters drag that cops out and beat them to death in the
street we can write this off as another liberal idea that might sound good
to them, they assume would bring good results, but can`t really be shown
to be valid.

I always thought there should be an "adopt a vicious criminal" program,
where before violent criminal are released they would live with some
liberal for a year, and if the criminal doesn`t kill or rape the liberal
or any of their family members they can get released into society.

Liberals like to see criminal paroled, because they know if it doesn`t
work out, it is likely someone else will suffer. I thought the Tower
Bridge attack (the one in 2019, not the other Tower bridge attacks ending
in loss of life) was a tragedy until I found out the victims were leftists
working towards making the world a better place for criminals. Job well
done, I say, they provided the terrorist with somebody to kill, a win/win.

[jecorb...@yahoo.com]

Socialism levels the playing field by making everyone equally miserable.

[ajohnstone]

"Liberals like to see criminal paroled, because they know if it doesn`t
work out, it is likely someone else will suffer."

We have touched on America's extraordinary incarceration rates elsewhere.
Increased sentencing and increased numbers in jail has not reduced the
crime rates in the USA. It is a failed strategy.

[ajohnstone]

> Socialism levels the playing field by making everyone equally miserable.

I think i have already referred to the understanding here of some about
socialism is banal and simplistic.

[John McAdams]

On 7 Jun 2020 19:59:51 -0400, ajohnstone <alanjjo...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

That is nonsense.

There is a massive econometric literature that says it has.

And there has been a massive decline in US crime since 1990,
apparently the effect of increased incarceration:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/191219/reported-violent-crime-rate-in-the-usa-since-1990/

.John
-----------------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

[ajohnstone]

While the national incarceration rate in the past decade has risen by 24%,
the rate of violent crime has decreased by 33%, your argument may seem
like evidence that incarceration is working. But appearances can be
false.

The Brennan Center for Justice examined both crime and imprisonment rates
in the U.S. over a recent 10-year period revealed that between 2007 and
2017, 34 U.S. states successfully reduced both their crime and
imprisonment rates

Clark Neily, the vice president of criminal justice at the Cato Institute
didn’t find the report’s findings “surprising at
all,” and that he thinks “it’s a very positive
development that we can see the key to reducing crime in this country is
not incarceration.”

The Heritage Foundation, said “there used to be a belief that if
you started letting people out of prison, the crime rates would definitely
go up.” Such assumptions helped drive mandatory sentencing
minimums and “three-strike laws” across the country.
Malcolm says this report, in addition to other studies, show that
assumption is “not necessarily the case.”

If it were attributable to a higher rate of incarceration, the individual
states with the highest rates of incarceration should also display the
lowest rates of violent crime, right? Unfortunately that is not the case.
In fact, for the majority of the last 20 years in American history, the
states with the highest incarceration rates have actually had the highest
rates of violent crime.

A study conducted by the Sentencing Project suggests that increased
incarceration is responsible for perhaps one quarter of the overall
decline in crime in the last two decades. The rest of the deflation can be
attributed to several other factors working in tandem such as the
improving economic conditions, the significant rise in job openings
(particularly for low-wage workers) ...What they have managed to figure
out, however, is that higher incarceration rates and longer sentences are
barely involved. In fact, they are one of the least effective and most
expensive ways of attempting to control crime rates that we currently know
of.

A Hamilton Project paper, stated:

"the fact that incarceration on average reduces crime does not imply that
recent increases in incarceration have generated substantial reductions in
crime. In fact, there is ample research documenting that the crimefighting
benefits of incarceration are much smaller at high incarceration rates
than they are at low incarceration rates. Moreover, several states have
recently enacted policies that have substantially reduced their state
prison population totals, with little to no impact on crime rates."

[chucksch...@gmail.com]

Baloney. Not one person in prison ever murdered someone not in prison.

Defund the police in your city and let's see what happens. And sorry, no
handguns for you to protect your home. Declare the city a Gun Free Zone.
POOF! violent crime should disappear. Your city can be a living,
breathing sociological laboratory to test what you want to inflict on
others. Double bonus: let's make sure your city declares itself a
"Sanctuary City" so illegal immi...er, "undocumented workers" can set up
shop in your wonderful paradise.

Good luck.

[chucksch...@gmail.com]

So using your numbers, we can agree that increased incarceration is
responsible for perhaps up to 25% of the overall drop in crime in the last
two decades?

Sweet.

The rest of the deflation can be
> attributed to several other factors working in tandem such as the
> improving economic conditions, the significant rise in job openings
> (particularly for low-wage workers)

A rising tide lifts all boats. Let's eliminate more barriers and
regulations and get workers back to work. Idle hands are the devil's
workshop.

...What they have managed to figure
> out, however, is that higher incarceration rates and longer sentences are
> barely involved.

You just cited a study saying higher incarceration rates was up to 25% of
the reason.

In fact, they are one of the least effective and most
> expensive ways of attempting to control crime rates that we currently know
> of.
>
> A Hamilton Project paper, stated:
>
> "the fact that incarceration on average reduces crime does not imply that
> recent increases in incarceration have generated substantial reductions in
> crime. In fact, there is ample research documenting that the crimefighting
> benefits of incarceration are much smaller at high incarceration rates
> than they are at low incarceration rates. Moreover, several states have
> recently enacted policies that have substantially reduced their state
> prison population totals, with little to no impact on crime rates."

Yet there is the study you quoted from the Sentencing Project.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Stick up a liquor store, rape a
child, burglarize homes in a neighborhood...sorry, you go to prison.
Fiddle around with your crime stats and make what you will of them, but
people in prison do not commit crimes on the outside. Duh.

If "Team Floyd" wants to defund police departments and keep thrives on the
streets, please do this in your yet-to-be-revealed socialist paradise with
the fair economic system, and let us know how it all works out.

[jecorb...@yahoo.com]

We are jailing people for the wrong things. People who commit violent
crimes against other people should be locked up for the safety of society.
There is absolutely no reason to jail people for victimless crimes which
pretty much all crimes of vice are.

[jecorb...@yahoo.com]

It is simplistic. That's what socialism has done everywhere it's been
implemented.

[jecorb...@yahoo.com]

They will need it if they go ahead with this hairbrained scheme. For my
part, I would never visit a city that doesn't have a police force and I'm
sure a lot of people feel the same way. Businesses would flee the city. So
would residents.

Did you happen to catch the interview with the president of the
Minneapolis city council. I didn't recognize the interviewer but she asked
her if somebody was breaking into her house at 3:00 am, whom could she
call? The bimbo actually responded that the desire to call the police
comes from a place of privilege. SAY WHAT??? How does somebody that ditzy
get elected to anything. To say she is as dumb as a box of rocks is an
insult to a box of rocks.

[Anthony Marsh]

Do you even realize that when you continually last out at Liberals you
are self identifying as an extreme right winger?
Are you proud of that?

[John McAdams]

On 11 Jun 2020 15:28:56 -0400, Anthony Marsh

Do you realize that your calling everybody who disagrees with you an
"extreme right winger" marks you as an intolerant extreme leftist?

.John
-----------------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm