"Reclaiming History" Talk -- J.D. Tippit And The 1:08 Radio Transmissions
David Von Pein
Subject: About Tippit & Oswald
Date: 09/14/2007
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=10976
Tim Gratz wrote this at "The Education Forum":
"But according to VB in "Reclaiming History", Tippitt [sic] called his
dispatcher twice at 1:08 p.m. and VB states those calls must be about
Tippitt's [sic] observations of LHO. So, is it possible that LHO could
get from his rooming house to Tenth & Patton in only FIVE minutes?
Even walking at a VERY BRISK pace?"
==============================
DVP REPLIED:
Tim,
The "1:08" transmissions that Vince Bugliosi was referring to in his
book were not taking place from the exact location of Tippit's murder
on 10th Street. Vince thinks that Tippit might have been tailing
Oswald for several blocks prior to Oswald reaching 10th & Patton.
So, those 1:08 transmissions, under those conditions, would have been
about 5 to 8 minutes (approx.) after LHO left his Beckley
residence...and could have been made anywhere along the route from
Beckley to 10th.
BTW, Dale Myers (the definitive researcher on the Tippit case)
disagrees with Vince on these 1:08 police radio calls. Dale says
there's conclusive proof (via the recordings) that shows the two calls
were made by two other police cars (Units 58 or 68 and 488), not by
Tippit.
I've heard the radio transmissions myself and they do not sound like
Tippit's voice, nor does the definitive "Number 78" (Tippit's call-
sign number) appear on the audio.
Lots of tidbits about the Tippit case can be found at Mr. Myers' FAQ
below (including details about the "1:08 transmissions"):
http://www.jdtippit.com/html/intro_faq.htm
Regards,
David Von Pein
www.davidvonpein.blogspot.com
Russ Burr
> E-Mail Correspondence.....
>
> Subject: About Tippit & Oswald
> Date: 09/14/2007
>
> http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=10976
>
> Tim Gratz wrote this at "The Education Forum":
>
> "But according to VB in "Reclaiming History", Tippitt [sic] called his
> dispatcher twice at 1:08 p.m. and VB states those calls must be about
> Tippitt's [sic] observations of LHO. So, is it possible that LHO could
> get from his rooming house to Tenth & Patton in only FIVE minutes?
> Even walking at a VERY BRISK pace?"
>
He left between 1Pm to 1:03PM, which is an estimate. It takes 11 minutes
to get to Tenth and Patton. (I did it in just under 12 minutes walking
normally. Plenty of time.
Russ
James K. Olmstead
"Russ Burr" <rdc...@netscape.net> wrote in message news:46ea8c81$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
> David Von Pein wrote:
>> E-Mail Correspondence.....
>>
>> Subject: About Tippit & Oswald
>> Date: 09/14/2007
>>
>> http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=10976
>>
>> Tim Gratz wrote this at "The Education Forum":
>>
>> "But according to VB in "Reclaiming History", Tippitt [sic] called his
>> dispatcher twice at 1:08 p.m. and VB states those calls must be about
>> Tippitt's [sic] observations of LHO. So, is it possible that LHO could
>> get from his rooming house to Tenth & Patton in only FIVE minutes?
>> Even walking at a VERY BRISK pace?"
>>
>
> He left between 1Pm to 1:03PM, which is an estimate. It takes 11 minutes to get to Tenth and Patton. (I did it in just
> under 12 minutes walking normally. Plenty of time.
>
> Russ
funny you always leave out the fact that the route you took would have had
Oswald walking along side of Markham...who he would have to run ahead and
up the street, back towards Beckly, turning around and heading the
opposite direction so Helen could see him cross the street ahead of her
before she got to the intersection....or did you redo your video walk you
made years ago?
jko
Russ Burr
Crawford to Tenth. I don't think it would have changed the timing.
Respectfully,
Russ
James K. Olmstead
is except the expert investigator for the WC...who failed to make the walk in time....and
was honest about the failure to make the distance in time.
I'm glad you admit the walk was in error....always knew you had some integrity.
jko
"Russ Burr" <rdc...@netscape.net> wrote in message news:46ec01ed$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
David Von Pein
Tell us exactly how fast or slow Lee Harvey Oswald was walking/running/
jogging/crawling after he left Earlene Roberts' sight on November 22,
1963.
Can you provide the world with that CRITICAL information?
Because that is data that we really DO need in order to make a definitive
judgement about whether or not LEE OSWALD--not John Doe or James O. or Dr.
Doolittle or whoever--could have gotten from 1026 N. Beckley Avenue to the
site of J.D. Tippit's murder in a certain number of minutes (which is a
number of minutes that is also UNKNOWN and UNVERIFIED).
People failing to "make the walk in time" via re-constructions after
11/22/63 is really pretty much worthless information....seeing as how the
two critical pieces of data (LHO's exact pace and the precise timeline
involved) to make a firm determination about OSWALD'S Nov. 22 movements
are not known...and can never be known for certain.
Russ Burr
> Everyone who believes Oswald killed JDT thinks he could make the walk in time...that
> is except the expert investigator for the WC...who failed to make the walk in time....and
> was honest about the failure to make the distance in time.
>
> I'm glad you admit the walk was in error....always knew you had some integrity.
>
> jko
>
Thanks Jim. Wasn't it Belin that tried to duplicate Oswald's walk?
Russ
tomnln
SEE>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uf8D6NuLIhw
"Russ Burr" <rdc...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:46ec01ed$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
John McAdams
>Wrong Again Russ;
>SEE>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uf8D6NuLIhw
>
There is a flat out lie in the video clip, Tom.
It says "the witnesses all agreed that Tippit was killed no later than
1:10."
The Kennedy Assassination Home Page
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
James K. Olmstead
"David Von Pein" <davev...@aol.com> wrote in message news:1189896409.7...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> James O.,
>
> Tell us exactly how fast or slow Lee Harvey Oswald was walking/running/
> jogging/crawling after he left Earlene Roberts' sight on November 22,
> 1963.
>
David: The time can NOT BE determined with ANY certainty.......that's the
whole point of contesting claims that he could. There is no set departure
time, rate of walk or route.....no conclusion can be reached within the
framework of the law.
The offical investigation indicated a time over 17 mins.........claims of
doing the same walk and the same speed are nothing more then claims....not
facts.
Russ has spent a great deal of time in the study of this case and it's
been several years since he made that video walk and it was me that
pointed out to him in debate over 8 years or so (? how long we been
friends Russ) the error......yet he still presents that the walk can be
done and supports it was in fact done by Oswald, within the needed
timeframe.........minus those very factors you want me to pull out of my
a.. as facts.
No matter how many times this subject comes up somebody always claims to
have made the walk in the time needed.........WITHOUT THE NEEDED FACTS you
demand of me and get upset that I even mention the "offical" investigation
results.
jko
David Von Pein
And isn't that just EXACTLY what I said in my last post (the one you
just responded to and excised this part re-printed below)?......
"People failing to "make the walk in time" via re-constructions after
11/22/63 is really pretty much worthless information....seeing as how
the two critical pieces of data (LHO's exact pace and the precise
timeline involved) to make a firm determination about OSWALD'S Nov. 22
movements are not known...and can never be known for certain." -- DVP;
09/15/07 AD
But, of course, given OTHER (non-"time"-oriented and non-"walking-
speed"-related) evidence -- and plenty of it -- proves Oswald DID make
that trip from Beckley to 10th in WHATEVER TIME NECESSARY TO GET
THERE.
THAT is an undeniable FACT, based on the OTHER evidence -- e.g.,
OSWALD'S bullet shells at scene and many witnesses seeing OSWALD at
the scene murdering Tippit or running away with a gun in tow just
afterward.
Why the topic of Oswald's guilt in the Tippit murder is even debated
is absolutely beyond all belief. But, round & round we go...decade
after decade.
Pa-thet-ic!
THE TIPPIT MURDER AND THE HILARIOUS DEFENSE OF LEE HARVEY OSWALD:
www.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/85fe573544d89f90
dcwi...@netscape.net
On a related front, it's interesting that the transcription of the DPD
radio logs used at the WC hearings with *most* police witnesses
omitted the exchange in which the dispatcher sent Tippit to Oak Cliff,
circa 12:46. (An Officer Nelson was also ordered there, but I don't
believe actually went to OC.) Score one for the beleaguered
Commission, however--counsel (Ball?), as I recall, did use more
complete transcriptions when questioning Chief Curry, & asked how the
earlier *Sawyer Exhibit* could omit such a crucial transmission....
dw
tomnln
T F BOWLEY (before 1:10)
DOMINGO BENEVIDES (only thing we did NOT cover was the timing)
Which of those witnesses do you Disagree with John?
"John McAdams" <john.m...@marquette.edu> wrote in message
news:46ec94ea...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
tomnln
Helem Markham: Tippit was shot at 1:06.
Distance was 0.85 miles.
Was Oswald Faster than Roger Bannister?
"James K. Olmstead" <jolm...@neo.rr.com> wrote in message
news:46ec8bb0$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
James K. Olmstead
leaning in the window......leaving fingerprints that were recovered exactly in the
same spot and not Oswald's.
jko
"David Von Pein" <davev...@aol.com> wrote in message news:1189926675.2...@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
Russ Burr
a 45 year old male with bad knees and a bad smoking habit I made it in
11' 55". Since no one knows at what pace Oswald was walking I can be
sure he was walking faster than me. Others who have recreated it have
made slightly faster. Had he left at 1:03 from the bus stop (no one will
know for sure) he surely made it to Tenth and Patton.
The only mistake I made was instead of walking up Crawford I walked up
Patton, which Oswald wouldn't have done since he would have run into
Markham. However the time would have been much the same had I taken
Crawford.
Russ
>
>
Russ Burr
I timed with my stop watch from the time Oswald left the TSBD and got to
Beckley and my time was much quicker. Why you ask? Because that tape is
has too many uncontrolled variables, such as traffic patterns, pace of
the walker, etc. You're the one that's wrong. You always look for
evidence (or lack thereof) to fit your CT.
Nice try.
R
yeuhd
> The offical investigation indicated a time over 17 mins.........claims of
> doing the same walk and the same speed are nothing more then claims....not
> facts.
The route Commission investigators walked "at an average walking pace"
to the Tippit shooting site in 17 minutes 45 seconds was described in
testimony as the "long way around route", and "not the most direct
route." Warren Commission Hearings, vol. 6, p.434, Testimony of
William W. Whaley.
tomnln
AND>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uf8D6NuLIhw
"David Von Pein" <davev...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1189896409.7...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> James O.,
>
> Tell us exactly how fast or slow Lee Harvey Oswald was walking/running/
> jogging/crawling after he left Earlene Roberts' sight on November 22,
> 1963.
>
> Can you provide the world with that CRITICAL information?
>
> Because that is data that we really DO need in order to make a definitive
> judgement about whether or not LEE OSWALD--not John Doe or James O. or Dr.
> Doolittle or whoever--could have gotten from 1026 N. Beckley Avenue to the
> site of J.D. Tippit's murder in a certain number of minutes (which is a
> number of minutes that is also UNKNOWN and UNVERIFIED).
>
> People failing to "make the walk in time" via re-constructions after
> 11/22/63 is really pretty much worthless information....seeing as how the
> two critical pieces of data (LHO's exact pace and the precise timeline
> involved) to make a firm determination about OSWALD'S Nov. 22 movements
> are not known...and can never be known for certain.
>
>
"Russ Burr" <rdc...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:46ec7124$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
James K. Olmstead
"yeuhd" <wal...@mailbag.com> wrote in message news:1189966484.7...@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
Ok.... Now why didn't they come up with a time "at an average walking
pace" for "the most direct route"?????????????????
jko
yeuhd
> Earlene Roberts: Oswald left at 1:03 (at the earliest)
There is no reason to believe that housekeeper Earlene Roberts looked at
her watch or at a clock to see when Oswald came in. With the events
unfolding on the television that she was watching, there was no reason why
she would have. She testified that "it must have been around 1 o'clock, or
maybe a little after," but then concluded, "what time I wouldn't want to
say." Warren Commission Hearings, vol. 6, p. 440, Testimony of Earlene
Roberts.
>From the expressed uncertainty of "around 1 o'clock" and "what time I
wouldn't want to say," somehow the rock solid, pinpoint time of 1:00 is
imputed to her. (6 H 440)
The Warren Commission's reconstruction of Oswald's journey from the TSBD
to his rooming house put Oswald arrival 12:59 p.m. There are three reasons
to think the WC's estimate was late:
1. All of the walking in the WC's reconstruction was "at an average pace,"
while Mrs. Roberts remembered Oswald "was walking pretty fast - he was all
but running" when he came in. (6 H 439)
2. Oswald's cab driver said he drove "a little bit faster" than the
reconstruction, about a half minute he estimated.
3. The WC used a departure time of 12:48 from the bus depot, while the cab
driver recorded the drive as occurring between 12:30 and 12:45. Even
assuming the driver was 15 minutes off on the departure time, the
departure would still have occurred no later than 12:45, three minutes
earlier than 12:48.
The HSCA reconstruction put Oswald's arrival at "approximately 12:55 P.M."
Given an arrival at 12:55-12:56, and three or four minutes to change,
Oswald would have been out the door at 1:00. The distance from his rooming
house to 10th and Patton is 0.8 miles (Beckley to Davis to Crawford to
10th to Patton). Walking at 4 miles per hour, this walk would take 12
minutes.
yeuhd
> Ok.... Now why didn't they come up with a time "at an average walking
> pace" for "the most direct route"?????????????????
Beats me, but my point is that if someone is going to use that 17
minute 45 second timing, he is also obligated to include the testimony
that it was done "at an average walking pace" by the "long way around
route" and "not the most direct route."
yeuhd
> You forget that the primary witness indicated that the shooter stood next to the car
> leaning in the window......leaving fingerprints that were recovered exactly in the
> same spot and not Oswald's.
Not true. Oswald's fingerprints were NOT ruled out - for the simple reason
that while fingerprints were found on the right side of Tippit's squad
car, none was readable. Dallas police sergeant W. E. Barnes did the
fingerprint investigation. His testimony (7 H 272-273):
Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the scene?
Mr. BARNES. The first thing that I did was to check the right side of
Tippit's car for fingerprints.
Mr. BELIN. Did you find any fingerprints on the right side of the
car?
Mr. BARNES. There was several smear prints. None of value.
Mr. BELIN. Where were these smear prints located?
Mr. BARNES. Just below the top part of the door, and also on the right
front fender.
Mr. BELIN. Why did you happen to check that particular portion of the
vehicle for fingerprints?
Mr. BARNES. I was told that the suspect which shot Tippit had come up
to the right side of the car, and there was a possibility that he
might have placed his hands on there.
. . . . .
Mr. BELIN. Was this police car dirty or clean?
Mr. BARNES. Dirty.
Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not this in any way
affects your ability to lift fingerprints?
Mr. BARNES. Any dirty surface will create a hardship as far as lifting
a latent print.
Mr. BELIN. Were you able to find any identifiable prints?
Mr. BARNES. No legible prints were found.
Russ Burr
Bottom line is that Oswald was at Tenth and Patton by 1:15 PM. And
thathe killed Tippit and that dispatch to the police followed a couple
minutes later.
Russ
>
>
James K. Olmstead
"yeuhd" <wal...@mailbag.com> wrote in message news:1189999913.7...@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
The shortest distance is a straight line, but that route could not be walked. The
shortest route, would have been the same route walked by Russ Burr........which
also could not have been walked. Any other route beside the 17 minute 45 sec route
walked would not have been any great shorter distance in terms of "feet".....at most
50-75 feet shorter....or about 10 seconds faster. There is no route that would
be six minutes faster unless Oswald was driven to that area. It not any question
of ignoring your point.....your point does not make much differance because there
is little differance between the possible routes. The point however that should
not be ignored is that the wording used is misleading indicating that there was a
"much shorter and faster route"....but they used the long one in fairness to Oswald.
There was no much shorter and faster route available.
jko
James K. Olmstead
"yeuhd" <wal...@mailbag.com> wrote in message news:1189999614.7...@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 16, 5:32 pm, "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote:
>> Earlene Roberts: Oswald left at 1:03 (at the earliest)
>
> There is no reason to believe that housekeeper Earlene Roberts looked at
> her watch or at a clock to see when Oswald came in. With the events
> unfolding on the television that she was watching, there was no reason why
> she would have. She testified that "it must have been around 1 o'clock, or
> maybe a little after," but then concluded, "what time I wouldn't want to
> say." Warren Commission Hearings, vol. 6, p. 440, Testimony of Earlene
> Roberts.
The WC exhibts 1119-A provides the offical timeline with a 1:00 pm arrivial
and 1:03 departure.
>
>>From the expressed uncertainty of "around 1 o'clock" and "what time I
> wouldn't want to say," somehow the rock solid, pinpoint time of 1:00 is
> imputed to her. (6 H 440)
>
That's because the offical investigation established the timeline and people
use that time.....instead of making up their own.
> The Warren Commission's reconstruction of Oswald's journey from the TSBD
> to his rooming house put Oswald arrival 12:59 p.m. There are three reasons
> to think the WC's estimate was late:
Wrong .........CE 1119-A places Oswald's arrival at 1:00 pm. If you are going
to argue.......use the correct facts.
>
> 1. All of the walking in the WC's reconstruction was "at an average pace,"
> while Mrs. Roberts remembered Oswald "was walking pretty fast - he was all
> but running" when he came in. (6 H 439)
Moving inside the rooming house has nothing to do with "arrival time" or what time
he "departed". In addition you leave out the comments about his standing outside
the rooming house at the street after walking out of the house.
>
> 2. Oswald's cab driver said he drove "a little bit faster" than the
> reconstruction, about a half minute he estimated.
The cab driver's testimony if valid only adds or subtracts a few seconds, but his
testimony and assistance was used in the offical investigation that established
the timelines used in CE 1119-A....you want to use this imput twice.
>
> 3. The WC used a departure time of 12:48 from the bus depot, while the cab
> driver recorded the drive as occurring between 12:30 and 12:45. Even
> assuming the driver was 15 minutes off on the departure time, the
> departure would still have occurred no later than 12:45, three minutes
> earlier than 12:48.
You present a consideration as if it was fact........but still the WC used 12:48.
Your wish that it took place eariler is just a wish not fact.
>
> The HSCA reconstruction put Oswald's arrival at "approximately 12:55 P.M."
That's out of the cab.......not the front door of the rooming house......he has a
short walk that takes several minutes to make.
> Given an arrival at 12:55-12:56, and three or four minutes to change,
> Oswald would have been out the door at 1:00. The distance from his rooming
> house to 10th and Patton is 0.8 miles (Beckley to Davis to Crawford to
> 10th to Patton). Walking at 4 miles per hour, this walk would take 12
> minutes.
Yet you can't determine the actual pace walked....nor the actual route walked...so
you make one up that the whole world has to accept because you made it up.
get real
jko
>
Funny but the WC findings and times included in the "estimates" are the ones
that have to be used in this case study...unless you can show a 1964 reconstruction
investigation that proves othewise. Opinions
When you use approximate times there is the equal consideration to plus or minus.
If you argue that the time was less another can argue that the much longer....you get
nowhere.
If the offical record says he left the room at 1:04 pm that is the time to be used.
>
James K. Olmstead
"yeuhd" <wal...@mailbag.com> wrote in message news:1190000881.2...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 16, 5:37 pm, "James K. Olmstead" <jolmst...@neo.rr.com> wrote:
>> You forget that the primary witness indicated that the shooter stood next to the car
>> leaning in the window......leaving fingerprints that were recovered exactly in the
>> same spot and not Oswald's.
>
> Not true. Oswald's fingerprints were NOT ruled out - for the simple reason
> that while fingerprints were found on the right side of Tippit's squad
> car, none was readable. Dallas police sergeant W. E. Barnes did the
> fingerprint investigation. His testimony (7 H 272-273):
>
New computer software changes the consideration of all the fingerprint evidence
collected. We have advanced greatly in the last 10 years in this area. You are
still considering forensics used in 1963-64.
I have no problem reading several of the latents even with the poor quality exhibits
available........the FBI will not give me access to originals.
> Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the scene?
> Mr. BARNES. The first thing that I did was to check the right side of
> Tippit's car for fingerprints.
> Mr. BELIN. Did you find any fingerprints on the right side of the
> car?
> Mr. BARNES. There was several smear prints. None of value.
> Mr. BELIN. Where were these smear prints located?
> Mr. BARNES. Just below the top part of the door, and also on the right
> front fender.
> Mr. BELIN. Why did you happen to check that particular portion of the
> vehicle for fingerprints?
> Mr. BARNES. I was told that the suspect which shot Tippit had come up
> to the right side of the car, and there was a possibility that he
> might have placed his hands on there.
> . . . . .
> Mr. BELIN. Was this police car dirty or clean?
> Mr. BARNES. Dirty.
> Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not this in any way
> affects your ability to lift fingerprints?
> Mr. BARNES. Any dirty surface will create a hardship as far as lifting
> a latent print.
> Mr. BELIN. Were you able to find any identifiable prints?
> Mr. BARNES. No legible prints were found.
If one actually looks at the exhibits there are several latents that have value.
In addition there are several partial that prove enough ridgelines (3 at least 10mm)
for porescopy examine. Which the DPD and FBI did not do on these latents.
You may not be able to tell which finger but you would know beyond doubt if they
were Oswald's thru porescopy examine.
jko
>
>
>
Russ Burr
> Here's your answer>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/tippit.htm
>
> AND>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uf8D6NuLIhw
tomnln
Markham said that Tippit was killed at 1:07.
T F Bowley said before 1:10.
"Russ Burr" <rdc...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:46ee...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
Russ Burr
How in earth would Whaley know what route Oswald took?
Russ
>
>
James K. Olmstead
of evidence in conflict. Remove all the conflict and then your bottom line might be valid.
jko
"Russ Burr" <rdc...@netscape.net> wrote in message news:46ee...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
Russ Burr
were no fingerprints of Oswald found on the passenger side of Tippit's
car. So how can you say Oswald's prints were not ruled out? If they
weren't legible how can you say that they couldn't be ruled out....by
what standard?
Russ
>
>
>
James K. Olmstead
Russ: yeuhd does not understand the complex issue dealing with "no value"
latents.
If any latent is labeled as having "no value".......all suspects are ruled
out....that would include Oswald. The patrol car latent's do however have
value and if there was even a remote possibility that they were Oswald's
they would have been presented as his as are some of CE 139 latents.
Since at least 4 of the witnesses have associations with known criminals,
there is a need to look deeper. Those four include Helen Markham and her
son as well as the car theft gang he associated with down the street from
the shooting...he was not known to be there but he did break his leg
trying to escape later when the DPD went after him.
JDT COULD HAVE BEEN responding to a hunch, dealing with a car in the area,
with guns on the back seat (read the radio transcripts) because of the car
theft ring operating in that area....there is really no other reason for
him to be in the area on offical patrol IF he was actuallyworking.
This part of the project with the AG of Texas, the Texas Forensic
Commission and the FBI.
jko
"Russ Burr" <rdc...@netscape.net> wrote in message news:46eed708$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
tomnln
Those are official records from the 26 volumes you don't even own.
NOW, we know who has all BS.
"Russ Burr" <rdc...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:46ee...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
yeuhd
> Any other route beside the 17 minute 45 sec route
> walked would not have been any great shorter distance in terms of "feet".....at most
> 50-75 feet shorter....or about 10 seconds faster.
The route that the Warren Commision investigators took from 1026 N.
Beckley Ave. was south on Beckley Ave. to E. 10th St., east on E. 10th St.
to N. Patton Ave. (Testimony of William W. Whaley, 6 H 434) Total
distance: 1.0 miles (5280 feet). Walking at a 4 m.p.h., the route takes
15.0 minutes.
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh6/html/WC_Vol6_0222b.htm
The route that the WC Report suggested was Beckley south to Davis, east to
Crawford, south to 10th, east to Patton. Total distance: 0.8 miles (4224
feet). Walking at 4 m.p.h., the route takes 12.0 minutes.
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0091b.htm
That's a difference of 1,056 feet and 3.0 minutes, not 50-74 feet and
10 seconds.
yeuhd
> > The Warren Commission's reconstruction of Oswald's journey from the TSBD
> > to his rooming house put Oswald arrival 12:59 p.m. There are three reasons
> > to think the WC's estimate was late:
>
> Wrong .........CE 1119-A places Oswald's arrival at 1:00 pm. If you are going
> to argue.......use the correct facts.
The Warren Commission Report, p. 164: "If he was discharged at Neely
and Beckley and walked directly to his roominghouse, he would have
arrived there about 12:59 to 1 p.m." CE 1119-A is a piece of evidence,
not a conclusion; the report is a conclusion taking into consideration
all evidence and testimony.
> > 2. Oswald's cab driver said he drove "a little bit faster" than the
> > reconstruction, about a half minute he estimated.
>
> The cab driver's testimony if valid only adds or subtracts a few seconds, but his
> testimony and assistance was used in the offical investigation that established
> the timelines used in CE 1119-A....you want to use this imput twice.
No, Whaley's half-minute correction was NOT used in the calculation.
Warren Commission Report, pp 162-163:
"The route of the taxicab was retraced under the direction of Whaley.
He directed the driver of the car to a point 20 feet north of the
northwest corner of the intersection of Beckley and Neely, the point
at which he said his passenger alighted. This was the 700 block of
North Beckley. The elapsed time of the reconstructed run from the
Greyhound Bus Station to Neely and Beckley was 5 minutes and 30
seconds by stopwatch."
Later on p. 163:
"If Oswald left the bus at 12:44 p.m. and walked directly to the
terminal, he would have entered the cab at 12:47 or 12:48 p.m. If the
cab ride was approximately 6 minutes, as was the reconstructed ride,
he would have reached his destination at approximately 12:54 p.m."
The WC Report not only did NOT take Whaley's correction, it rounded
the taxi journey time a half minute longer instead of reducing it by a
half minute.
> > Given an arrival at 12:55-12:56, and three or four minutes to change,
> > Oswald would have been out the door at 1:00. The distance from his rooming
> > house to 10th and Patton is 0.8 miles (Beckley to Davis to Crawford to
> > 10th to Patton). Walking at 4 miles per hour, this walk would take 12
> > minutes.
>
> Yet you can't determine the actual pace walked....nor the actual route walked...so
> you make one up that the whole world has to accept because you made it up.
That route is not mine, it is from the WC Report. You know, the one
you call "the official record."
> If the offical record says he left the room at 1:04 pm that is the time to be used.
Are you saying that the WC Report was always right, and that the
evidence should never be re-examined or re-considered?
Russ Burr
> WRONG Again Russ;
> Markham said that Tippit was killed at 1:07.
Yesterday you said Markham said the shooting was at 1:16
> T F Bowley said before 1:10.
His watch wasn't accurate.
James K. Olmstead
"yeuhd" <wal...@mailbag.com> wrote in message news:1190082816.2...@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
The distance is greater then I remembered...now verify the speed walked....
>
> That's a difference of 1,056 feet and 3.0 minutes, not 50-74 feet and
> 10 seconds.
>
>
This is the route shown in Ce 1119-A however the time is 13 minutes not 12
which is still short of the required time needed for Oswald to have done all
that the witnesses claim he did prior to arriving at the scene and engaging
JDT before the shooting.
Accordingly to fit the time frame Oswald can not stand outside the rooming house
as seen by Roberts....nor can he lean into the car to talk to JDT.
JDT and Oswald have to meet exactly at 1:16 (both arriving same point in time) JDT
has to jump out of the car and Oswald has to shoot him......without a word being
spoken between the two. You just established a conspiracy.
jko
yeuhd
> yeuhd wrote:
> > The route Commission investigators walked "at an average walking pace"
> > to the Tippit shooting site in 17 minutes 45 seconds was described in
> > testimony as the "long way around route", and "not the most direct
> > route." Warren Commission Hearings, vol. 6, p.434, Testimony of
> > William W. Whaley.
>
> How in earth would Whaley know what route Oswald took?
He didn't. During Whaley's testimony, examiner David Belin recounts
the route that he and the other investigators in Dallas took in
recreating Oswald's journey from the rooming house to Tippit's murder
location. We don't know what route Oswald took. The best we can do is
make reasonable guesses, and provide parameters. The route Belin
described during Whaley's testimony (Beckley to 10th to Patton) is the
one requires the fewest turns (one), but goes about four blocks out of
the way; while the route the Report maps (Beckley to Davis to Crawford
to 10th to Patton) requires several turns (three), but is shorter and
quicker.
yeuhd
> I believe in Oswald's guilt but your selected WCT from Barnes said there
> were no fingerprints of Oswald found on the passenger side of Tippit's
> car. So how can you say Oswald's prints were not ruled out? If they
> weren't legible how can you say that they couldn't be ruled out....by
> what standard?
By the standard that they weren't ruled out. I don't have to prove a
negative. James K. Olmstead is the one who implied that Oswald's
fingerprints *were* ruled out. He wrote above:
> You forget that the primary witness indicated that the shooter stood next to the car
> leaning in the window......leaving fingerprints that were recovered exactly in the
> same spot and not Oswald's.
Mr. Olmstead, how do you know that the fingerprints were *not*
Oswald's?
Russ Burr
> Russ. The bottom line presented is in your mind but not directly supported by the purpondence
> of evidence in conflict. Remove all the conflict and then your bottom line might be valid.
>
> jko
>
Jim, Could you enlighten me on my "conflict". A reply would be appreciated.
Respectfully,
Russ
Russ Burr
> WRONG Again Russ;
> Markham said that Tippit was killed at 1:07.
I owe you an apology. You said Markham saw the shooting at 1:06. But
it's still not right. Oswald wasn't even there. He shot him at 1:15
tomnln
Oswald was NOT there.
Thank You Russ.
"Russ Burr" <rdc...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:46ef...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
Russ Burr
Russ
tomnln
Markham would have already been on her 1:15 bus on Jefferson.
T F Bowley would have alresady passed 10th & Patton and, have picked up his
wife.
"James K. Olmstead" <jolm...@neo.rr.com> wrote in message
news:46efd7f2$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
tomnln
http://whokilledjfk.net/tippit.htm
Those records are Official Russ.
"Russ Burr" <rdc...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:46ef...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
James K. Olmstead
"yeuhd" <wal...@mailbag.com> wrote in message news:1190091772.9...@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 17, 4:09 pm, "James K. Olmstead" <jolmst...@neo.rr.com> wrote:
>> > The Warren Commission's reconstruction of Oswald's journey from the TSBD
>> > to his rooming house put Oswald arrival 12:59 p.m. There are three reasons
>> > to think the WC's estimate was late:
>>
>> Wrong .........CE 1119-A places Oswald's arrival at 1:00 pm. If you are going
>> to argue.......use the correct facts.
>
> The Warren Commission Report, p. 164: "If he was discharged at Neely
> and Beckley and walked directly to his roominghouse, he would have
> arrived there about 12:59 to 1 p.m." CE 1119-A is a piece of evidence,
> not a conclusion; the report is a conclusion taking into consideration
> all evidence and testimony.
Then the "evidence" should read "12:59 to 1 p.m"....not just 12:59 as you
want to present..however the "evidence" presents 1 pm......not 12:59.
>
>> > 2. Oswald's cab driver said he drove "a little bit faster" than the
>> > reconstruction, about a half minute he estimated.
>>
>> The cab driver's testimony if valid only adds or subtracts a few seconds, but his
>> testimony and assistance was used in the offical investigation that established
>> the timelines used in CE 1119-A....you want to use this imput twice.
>
> No, Whaley's half-minute correction was NOT used in the calculation.
> Warren Commission Report, pp 162-163:
> "The route of the taxicab was retraced under the direction of Whaley.
> He directed the driver of the car to a point 20 feet north of the
> northwest corner of the intersection of Beckley and Neely, the point
> at which he said his passenger alighted. This was the 700 block of
> North Beckley. The elapsed time of the reconstructed run from the
> Greyhound Bus Station to Neely and Beckley was 5 minutes and 30
> seconds by stopwatch."
>
> Later on p. 163:
> "If Oswald left the bus at 12:44 p.m. and walked directly to the
> terminal, he would have entered the cab at 12:47 or 12:48 p.m. If the
> cab ride was approximately 6 minutes, as was the reconstructed ride,
> he would have reached his destination at approximately 12:54 p.m."
>
> The WC Report not only did NOT take Whaley's correction, it rounded
> the taxi journey time a half minute longer instead of reducing it by a
> half minute.
They still took Whaley's imput.....they didn't use it.....because of the
conflict dealing with his various statements......he was not the best
witness.
>
>> > Given an arrival at 12:55-12:56, and three or four minutes to change,
>> > Oswald would have been out the door at 1:00. The distance from his rooming
>> > house to 10th and Patton is 0.8 miles (Beckley to Davis to Crawford to
>> > 10th to Patton). Walking at 4 miles per hour, this walk would take 12
>> > minutes.
If the WC considered Oswald arrived at 12:55-12:56....why would they say
12:59 to 1 p.m."? If they considered Oswald arriving at 12:55 - 12:56 why
did they create "evidence" CE 1119-A that indicates arrival at 1 pm?
>>
>> Yet you can't determine the actual pace walked....nor the actual route walked...so
>> you make one up that the whole world has to accept because you made it up.
>
> That route is not mine, it is from the WC Report. You know, the one
> you call "the official record."
>
It's yours because you use it.....I don't use either.......since I don't
believe the evidence and the presented facts support Oswald was there.
>> If the offical record says he left the room at 1:04 pm that is the time to be used.
>
> Are you saying that the WC Report was always right, and that the
> evidence should never be re-examined or re-considered?
No....but if they use a specific time as part of the "evidence" that
evidence has to be considered. You want to use a timeframe between 12:55
and 12:59 yet the offical evidence says 1 pm..........and that's because
the offical record does not support the actions you want to have happened.
jko
James K. Olmstead
"yeuhd" <wal...@mailbag.com> wrote in message news:1190092879....@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
By examination.......the fingerprint evidence is part of my primary
research. I've been to the archives and handled key fingerprint evidence
and have had a project before the FBI for 6 years to resolve the
conflicts. I presented the highlights in the DVD "Into Evidence" back in
2003.
The FBI and DPD rule out Oswald's fingerprints being on car 10.
jko
James K. Olmstead
"Russ Burr" <rdc...@netscape.net> wrote in message news:46f0261d$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
James K. Olmstead
"Russ Burr" <rdc...@netscape.net> wrote in message news:46ef...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
> James K. Olmstead wrote:
>> Russ. The bottom line presented is in your mind but not directly supported by the purpondence
>> of evidence in conflict. Remove all the conflict and then your bottom line might be valid.
>>
>> jko
>>
>
> Jim, Could you enlighten me on my "conflict". A reply would be appreciated.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Russ
>>
First and formost Russ is the fingerprint issues. However I know you do
not have the background in this area so there is little more that can be
said. You could support the conflict being addressed in Tom Hanks work
from VB's book.
David Von Pein
her 1:15 bus on Jefferson. T.F. Bowley would have already passed 10th &
Patton and have picked up his wife." <<<
Tom Rossley is still insisting (as always) that the times relayed by the
Tippit witnesses are firmly-established, rooted-in-fact times. Of course,
as anyone should realize, the times relayed by witnesses are merely their
OWN ESTIMATES.
And, in reality, even those estimations aren't THAT far afield from being
the truth (when the totality of all the evidence is looked at). Bowley and
Markham were only off by a few measly minutes. But to some CTers, those
few measly minutes (which are times being based on the witnesses'
GUESSWORK ONLY) causes those CTers to completely toss out even the
POSSIBILITY of Oswald being guilty and those two witnesses being slightly
off on their timelines by a mere 4 to 8 minutes.
But, naturally, Tom R. has to think that the Bowley/Markham times are
rooted in stone....in order to exonerate his hero, Mr. Oswald.
But BY FAR the best timeclock with respect to Tippit's murder is the "1:16
PM" DPD timestamp put on the Bowley radio call just after the shooting.
Stands to reason, therefore, that Officer Tippit was shot very shortly
prior to 1:16 PM. Dale Myers' exacting study of the timeline shows the
best guess for the exact time of the shooting (based on the sum total of
everything to be considered) to be 1:14:30 PM.
IMO, that's a very reasonable guess.
yeuhd
> yeuhd wrote:
> > Mr. Olmstead, how do you know that the fingerprints were *not*
> > Oswald's?
>
> Cause they were not legible.
"Not legible" and "not Oswald's" are two different things; don't
confuse them.
Russ Burr
> My point EXACTLY;
>
> Oswald was NOT there.
Not until 1:14-1:15 when he shot Tippit.
tomnln
They are ALL Your witnesses.
They place the shooting EARLIER.
http://whokilledjfk.net/tippit.htm
"Russ Burr" <rdc...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:46f11fea$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
tomnln
When are you gonna Prove Bowley's watch was off?
"tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:OpTHi.100306$GO6....@newsfe21.lga...
tomnln
Markhan caught the 1:15 bus down on Jefferson every day.
T F Bowley picked up his daughter & wife at the same times EVERY DAY.
http://whokilledjfk.net/tippit.htm
WCR states that Oswald left 1026 N Beckley at 1:03. (without counting
Oswald at the bus stop)
Markhan said Tippit was killed at 1:06.
T F Bowley said Tippit was killed BEFORE 1:10.
"David Von Pein" <davev...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1190150501.4...@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...
Bud
James K. Olmstead wrote:
> "yeuhd" <wal...@mailbag.com> wrote in message news:1190082816.2...@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
> > On Sep 17, 4:08 pm, "James K. Olmstead" <jolmst...@neo.rr.com> wrote:
> >> Any other route beside the 17 minute 45 sec route
> >> walked would not have been any great shorter distance in terms of "feet".....at most
> >> 50-75 feet shorter....or about 10 seconds faster.
> >
> > The route that the Warren Commision investigators took from 1026 N.
> > Beckley Ave. was south on Beckley Ave. to E. 10th St., east on E. 10th St.
> > to N. Patton Ave. (Testimony of William W. Whaley, 6 H 434) Total
> > distance: 1.0 miles (5280 feet). Walking at a 4 m.p.h., the route takes
> > 15.0 minutes.
> >
> > http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh6/html/WC_Vol6_0222b.htm
> >
> > The route that the WC Report suggested was Beckley south to Davis, east to
> > Crawford, south to 10th, east to Patton. Total distance: 0.8 miles (4224
> > feet). Walking at 4 m.p.h., the route takes 12.0 minutes.
> >
> > http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0091b.htm
>
>
> The distance is greater then I remembered...now verify the speed walked....
Not necessary. The only consideration is whether he *could* get to
10th and Patton in time to kill Tippit. If he *could* get there by
walking fast, then his presense there cannot be ruled out by the
timeline.
> > That's a difference of 1,056 feet and 3.0 minutes, not 50-74 feet and
> > 10 seconds.
> >
> >
>
> This is the route shown in Ce 1119-A
Doesn`t this exhibit say "All times are estimates"?
> however the time is 13 minutes not 12
> which is still short of the required time needed for Oswald to have done all
> that the witnesses claim he did prior to arriving at the scene and engaging
> JDT before the shooting.
Possible Oz walked very, very fast. Possible he ran parts of the
trip. We don`t need witnesses to Oz walking fast or running, we only
need the possibility. The witnesses at the scene of the crime do the
rest.
> Accordingly to fit the time frame Oswald can not stand outside the rooming house
> as seen by Roberts....nor can he lean into the car to talk to JDT.
We don`t have that precission. There isn`t one verifiable
absolutely correct time in the whole timeline (unless the bus
transfer Oz got was stamped with a time).
> JDT and Oswald have to meet exactly at 1:16 (both arriving same point in time) JDT
> has to jump out of the car and Oswald has to shoot him......without a word being
> spoken between the two. You just established a conspiracy.
We only need to establish Oz shot Tippit for Oz to be guilty of
shooting Tippit.
> jko
James K. Olmstead
"Bud" <sirs...@fast.net> wrote in message news:1190281440.7...@n39g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>
> James K. Olmstead wrote:
>> "yeuhd" <wal...@mailbag.com> wrote in message news:1190082816.2...@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
>> > On Sep 17, 4:08 pm, "James K. Olmstead" <jolmst...@neo.rr.com> wrote:
>> >> Any other route beside the 17 minute 45 sec route
>> >> walked would not have been any great shorter distance in terms of "feet".....at most
>> >> 50-75 feet shorter....or about 10 seconds faster.
>> >
>> > The route that the Warren Commision investigators took from 1026 N.
>> > Beckley Ave. was south on Beckley Ave. to E. 10th St., east on E. 10th St.
>> > to N. Patton Ave. (Testimony of William W. Whaley, 6 H 434) Total
>> > distance: 1.0 miles (5280 feet). Walking at a 4 m.p.h., the route takes
>> > 15.0 minutes.
>> >
>> > http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh6/html/WC_Vol6_0222b.htm
>> >
>> > The route that the WC Report suggested was Beckley south to Davis, east to
>> > Crawford, south to 10th, east to Patton. Total distance: 0.8 miles (4224
>> > feet). Walking at 4 m.p.h., the route takes 12.0 minutes.
>> >
>> > http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0091b.htm
>>
>>
>> The distance is greater then I remembered...now verify the speed walked....
>
> Not necessary. The only consideration is whether he *could* get to
> 10th and Patton in time to kill Tippit. If he *could* get there by
> walking fast, then his presense there cannot be ruled out by the
> timeline.
Then based on your "only consideration" Oswald *could* NOT get to the area
in time to kill JDT. Estimated time of shooting is 1:14:30 by Dale Myers. Lee
left rooming house at 1:04 and by offical estimate, the minimum time to reach
the area is 12 minutes.......he would be 2-3 blocks away from shooting.
>
>> > That's a difference of 1,056 feet and 3.0 minutes, not 50-74 feet and
>> > 10 seconds.
>> >
>> >
>>
>> This is the route shown in Ce 1119-A
>
> Doesn`t this exhibit say "All times are estimates"?
No it says "All times are approximate" which means there is a plus or minus factor
that could go either way. Under the law, evidence that favors the defendent can
not be dismissed when there is "doubt". Times presented "approximately" create
doubt.
>
>> however the time is 13 minutes not 12
>> which is still short of the required time needed for Oswald to have done all
>> that the witnesses claim he did prior to arriving at the scene and engaging
>> JDT before the shooting.
>
> Possible Oz walked very, very fast. Possible he ran parts of the
> trip. We don`t need witnesses to Oz walking fast or running, we only
> need the possibility. The witnesses at the scene of the crime do the
> rest.
No there are far mor factors to consider........times given by those witnesses, discriptions
of shooter, actions, motive and intent, etc etc.......just about anything is a "possibility"....but
you need more to establish guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.
>
>> Accordingly to fit the time frame Oswald can not stand outside the rooming house
>> as seen by Roberts....nor can he lean into the car to talk to JDT.
>
> We don`t have that precission. There isn`t one verifiable
> absolutely correct time in the whole timeline (unless the bus
> transfer Oz got was stamped with a time).
The offical times presented are as good as it can get........that's why we have to
take into consideration all known factors and then evaluate the unknown factors...
like the reason for Oswald to be in that location....(NONE) the reason for JDT
to be in that location (NONE).......all these facts have to considered....not just
the time distance factor.......however there is just not enough time to accomplish
all actions presented because of the minimum 12 minute needed to get from
point A to point B.
>
>> JDT and Oswald have to meet exactly at 1:16 (both arriving same point in time) JDT
>> has to jump out of the car and Oswald has to shoot him......without a word being
>> spoken between the two. You just established a conspiracy.
>
> We only need to establish Oz shot Tippit for Oz to be guilty of
> shooting Tippit.
>
But you can't establish Oswald did in fact shoot Tippit.....you can't even clearly establish
Oswald could be in the area of the shooting let alone pull the trigger. Just about any reason
for Oswald to be there relates to "conspiracy considerations" and not some random act.
jko
>> jko
>
>
yeuhd
> Lee
> left rooming house at 1:04
There is no solid evidence of what time Oswald left his rooming house.
Earlene Roberts, after being asked "approximately" what time Oswald came
in, and answering "around 1 o'clock" said in her own testimony that she
wasn't sure ("what time I wouldn't want to say"). Nowhere in her testimony
does she say that she looked at her watch or a clock to note the time when
Oswald came in or when he left. Why would she have? And she was testifying
months afterward. If a co-worker passed by your desk one day at work and
said nothing, and then you were asked hours later the exact minute at
which that happened, could you? If you were asked more than four months
later the exact minute at which the co- worker passed by your desk, could
you?
One of the things a jury, or a President's Commission, must do is to
assess the credibility of evidence and witnesses. All testimony cannot be
taken with the same weight. In my opinion, the Warren Commission made
several errors in judgment (and at least one errror of fact) when
analyzing the testimony and evidence in regard to Oswald's actions between
his leaving the TSBD and the shooting of Officer Tippit. The Warren
Commission is not the last word in regard to this analysis. We, and
history, also have the right to re-anlayze the evidence and testimony, and
when necessary to make what we think are better judgments.
yeuhd
(with Helen Markham seeing Oswald shoot Tippit, and William Scoggins
seeing Oswald immediately before and after the shooting, which he heard),
or fleeing from the site of the shooting. Two more witnesses testified
that Oswald resembled the man they had seen either shoot Tippit, or flee
from the scene. All four empty cartridge cases found at the shooting site
ballistically matched the gun in Oswald's possession at the time of
arrest, to the exclusion of all other guns. (The bullets themselves were
too damaged to make a ballistic match.) Oswald resisted arrest, and
attempted to shoot the arresting officer. Thousands upon thousands of
murder convictions have been obtained on *much less evidence* than that.
Mr. Olmstead, again and again you talk of Mrs. Roberts's "about 1:00", and
the WC's acceptance of that, as being "official" to the level of Holy
Writ, and that no one is allowed to question it. No. Wrong. We can - and
do - question it, as any jury would be obligated to evaluate the
testimony. No jury is ordered to accept any testimony as fact. No jury is
told that any testimony is "official". The jury is free to accept the
testimony whole, reject the testimony whole, or accept parts of the
testimony and reject others. Ditto for physical evidence. Juries routinely
hear conflicting evidence. Not only *can* a jury pick and choose which
evidence it wants to believe, it *must* pick and choose. That is the
jury's job.
And if we are giving serious discussion to the JFK assassination, that is
our job too, as the jury of history. We, like the jury, are free to accept
testimony whole, reject testimony whole, or partially accept and partially
reject testimony. If you want to think Mrs. Roberts had pinpoint accurate
memory about when Oswald entered and left that day, four and a half months
after the event, you have that right. But no one is obligated to share
that opinion.
I assume that you do not accept the conclusions of the Warren Commission
Report. Then why are you attempting to impose conclusions of the WCR
(e.g., timing of Oswald's movements) on others as as "official" and
unquestionable?
yeuhd
don't know what route he took, and we don't know at what speed he moved.*
The prosecution does not need to prove either of those. All the
prosecution needs to do is show that it is not impossible, or even better,
that it is not unlikely. We do know that the shortest route between the
two points is 0.8 miles (Beckley to Davis to Crawford to 10th to Patton).
From that, we can calculate the timing of the route based on various
speeds. Walking at 4 miles per hour, a person would make the journey in
12.0 minutes. At 5 to 7 miles per hour, typical jogging pace, a person
would make the journey in 9.6 to 6.9 minutes.
We do have evidence that when Oswald *entered* the rooming house he was
"all but running" (Earlene Roberts), and that when he was walking along
10th Street just before Tippit stopped him he "did not seem in too big a
hurry, but he wasn't walking" (William Scoggins). Given those two
accounts, it isn't unreasonable to infer that Oswald was/may have
been/could have/probably was (pick your favorite term) travelling between
4 and 7 miles per hour, and thus could have made the journey in 12.0 to
6.9 minutes.
James K. Olmstead
Regardless of your objection the timeframe was established by the WC not
me.
When approximate times are given....it should be considered that the plus
or minus factor is already built in......so if you have a problem it's
with the WC.
jko
"yeuhd" <wal...@mailbag.com> wrote in message news:1190322193.6...@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
tomnln
"around 1:00 OR, A LITTLE AFTER".
"yeuhd" <wal...@mailbag.com> wrote in message
news:1190322193.6...@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
tomnln
Arriving/Leaving 1026 N. beckley Sir.
Are you Rejecting the WCR?
"yeuhd" <wal...@mailbag.com> wrote in message
news:1190330081....@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
"yeuhd" <wal...@mailbag.com> wrote in message
news:1190330081....@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
tomnln
http://whokilledjfk.net/tippit.htm
"yeuhd" <wal...@mailbag.com> wrote in message
news:1190331468.7...@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
James K. Olmstead
"yeuhd" <wal...@mailbag.com> wrote in message news:1190330081....@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> Nine people identified Oswald as either being at the site of the shooting
> (with Helen Markham seeing Oswald shoot Tippit, and William Scoggins
> seeing Oswald immediately before and after the shooting, which he heard),
> or fleeing from the site of the shooting. Two more witnesses testified
> that Oswald resembled the man they had seen either shoot Tippit, or flee
> from the scene. All four empty cartridge cases found at the shooting site
> ballistically matched the gun in Oswald's possession at the time of
> arrest, to the exclusion of all other guns. (The bullets themselves were
> too damaged to make a ballistic match.) Oswald resisted arrest, and
> attempted to shoot the arresting officer. Thousands upon thousands of
> murder convictions have been obtained on *much less evidence* than that.
You make a statement like above.....but ignore all the conflicts
associated with each element.
>
> Mr. Olmstead, again and again you talk of Mrs. Roberts's "about 1:00", and
> the WC's acceptance of that, as being "official" to the level of Holy
> Writ, and that no one is allowed to question it.
I do not force anyone to accept anything to the level of Holy
Writ......that's absurd and anyone who knows my work knows that. The
facts are presented and they can't be ignored....that's always been my
position. They selected the approximate times.....not me. You can't
change them because you don't like them....they will always remain the
offical times of this case unless another offical body changes them.
No. Wrong. We can - and
> do - question it, as any jury would be obligated to evaluate the
> testimony.
Yet you object to my questioning of how the evidence is
presented....double standard here....you can question the offical record,
because you don't like it but I can't support it on a point by point
consideration of the facts. I use the material presented.....they present
the timeline....I don't create one I like better.
No jury is ordered to accept any testimony as fact. No jury is
> told that any testimony is "official".
The offical records, exhibits and testimony in this case study is
"offical" regardless of what a jury in a court of law is instructed. The
records are facts.......regardless if you like it or not.
The jury is free to accept the
> testimony whole, reject the testimony whole, or accept parts of the
> testimony and reject others. Ditto for physical evidence.
Yet you object to me doing the same.........double standard again.
Juries routinely
> hear conflicting evidence. Not only *can* a jury pick and choose which
> evidence it wants to believe, it *must* pick and choose. That is the
> jury's job.
This is not a trial......as LN's love to repeat......it is a case
study....each individual becomes "the jury"..........and forms their own
opinion based on the facts.
>
> And if we are giving serious discussion to the JFK assassination, that is
> our job too, as the jury of history. We, like the jury, are free to accept
> testimony whole, reject testimony whole, or partially accept and partially
> reject testimony. If you want to think Mrs. Roberts had pinpoint accurate
> memory about when Oswald entered and left that day, four and a half months
> after the event, you have that right. But no one is obligated to share
> that opinion.
I don't......I just use the timeframe provided by the offical
investigation.....I have no problem with her times being a best
guess.....the offical investigators settled on the times.....not her.
>
> I assume that you do not accept the conclusions of the Warren Commission
> Report. Then why are you attempting to impose conclusions of the WCR
> (e.g., timing of Oswald's movements) on others as as "official" and
> unquestionable?
>
I don't.........you will never find a post where I have said that the WCR
is "uquestionable". It is however the offical case report and I do not
agree with how alot of the material is presented. I have never made any
effort to "impose conclusions" of the WCR on anyone.....only present the
facts based on the conflicts being discussed.
Now why do you object to the times presented by the WCR so much?
jko
yeuhd
> Now why do you object to the times presented by the WCR so much?
See my posts of:
Sep 16, 5:43 pm
Sep 17, 12:23 am
Sep 18, 9:08 am
Sep 20, 10:15 pm
Sep 20, 10:57 pm
Bud
In this case, "official estimate" is synonymous with "unestablished
time".
> the minimum time to reach
> the area is 12 minutes.......he would be 2-3 blocks away from shooting.
When you say "minimum time", are you saying that it is impossible for a
man on foot to cover this distance faster than 12 minutes?
> >> > That's a difference of 1,056 feet and 3.0 minutes, not 50-74 feet and
> >> > 10 seconds.
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> This is the route shown in Ce 1119-A
> >
> > Doesn`t this exhibit say "All times are estimates"?
>
> No it says "All times are approximate" which means there is a plus or minus factor
> that could go either way.
No, I`d say it means the times can`t be checked for accuracy.
> Under the law, evidence that favors the defendent can
> not be dismissed when there is "doubt". Times presented "approximately" create
> doubt.
No, they don`t. Exact times of events surrounding a crime are
rarely known.
> >> however the time is 13 minutes not 12
> >> which is still short of the required time needed for Oswald to have done all
> >> that the witnesses claim he did prior to arriving at the scene and engaging
> >> JDT before the shooting.
> >
> > Possible Oz walked very, very fast. Possible he ran parts of the
> > trip. We don`t need witnesses to Oz walking fast or running, we only
> > need the possibility. The witnesses at the scene of the crime do the
> > rest.
>
> No there are far mor factors to consider........times given by those witnesses,
Unestablished times.
> discriptions
> of shooter,
Selection of the shooter, or man with a gun, without exception, Oz
(by those willing to make an ID).
>actions,
Cop-killing. It wasn`t even the last time he tried to kill a cop
that day.
> motive
Continue his killing spree of political figures. Next stop,
Walker`s house.
>and intent,
To get past Tippit.
> etc etc.......just about anything is a "possibility"....but
> you need more to establish guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.
What I was addressing was the possibility vs. impossibility of Oz being
at 10th and Patton when Tippit was killed. Does the timeline establish Oz
could not be there?
> >> Accordingly to fit the time frame Oswald can not stand outside the rooming house
> >> as seen by Roberts....nor can he lean into the car to talk to JDT.
> >
> > We don`t have that precission. There isn`t one verifiable
> > absolutely correct time in the whole timeline (unless the bus
> > transfer Oz got was stamped with a time).
>
> The offical times presented are as good as it can get........
But can`t be used to rule out Oz being at 10th and Patton when
Tippit was killed.
>that's why we have to
> take into consideration all known factors and then evaluate the unknown factors...
> like the reason for Oswald to be in that location....(NONE)
Obviously he was in transit.
> the reason for JDT
> to be in that location (NONE)
He was ordered to Oak Cliff. The explaination of why is on record.
If you don`t like the official explaination, they really just can`t
write a better one just to suit you.
>.......all these facts have to considered....not just
> the time distance factor.......however there is just not enough time to accomplish
> all actions presented because of the minimum 12 minute needed to get from
> point A to point B.
Is 12 minutes the fastest time a person on foot can get from "A" to
"B"? In order to determine the feat to be impossible, you`d need to
compare it with the fastest possible time to make the trip.
Look at it this way... A man is filmed using an ATM at a certain time,
and witnesses say he robbed a bank later. Could a defense lawyer say "That
trip from the ATM to the bank that was robbed requires my client to have
driven at 70 MPH to get there in time to rob that bank, and you have no
witneses to my client driving 70 MPH"? I suppose he could try it, but
would it be likely to sway a jury?
> >> JDT and Oswald have to meet exactly at 1:16 (both arriving same point in time) JDT
> >> has to jump out of the car and Oswald has to shoot him......without a word being
> >> spoken between the two. You just established a conspiracy.
> >
> > We only need to establish Oz shot Tippit for Oz to be guilty of
> > shooting Tippit.
> >
>
> But you can't establish Oswald did in fact shoot Tippit.....
<snicker> You mean I can`t get you to accept this obvious fact.
>you can't even clearly establish
> Oswald could be in the area of the shooting
It`s a question of whether that possibility can be ruled, a
question of whether the timeline affords Oz an alibi.
> let alone pull the trigger. Just about any reason
> for Oswald to be there relates to "conspiracy considerations" and not some random act.
By all means, present all the evidence of conspiracy you have for
Oz being there. Suspicions and innuendo is all I`ve seen offered by
CT. Do you have a fellow conspirator of Oz`s saying he was to meet Oz
there?
> jko
>
>
> >> jko
> >
> >
James K. Olmstead
"Bud" <sirs...@fast.net> wrote in message news:1190489315.0...@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
It is however the timeframe that is part of the offical investigation, presented by the
officals that conducted the investigation. It is a key factor in understanding the presented
events.....
>
>> the minimum time to reach
>> the area is 12 minutes.......he would be 2-3 blocks away from shooting.
>
> When you say "minimum time", are you saying that it is impossible for a
> man on foot to cover this distance faster than 12 minutes?
No........however the WCR presents that it took Oswald 6 minutes to walk from
Neely to his rooming house.....if so it can be considered that it took 6 minutes
for Oswald to walk from his room to the corner of Neely and Beckly minutes
later. Which he would have to do to go to the TKS. That's 1700 ft, about a
third of the distance.....which means it would take Oswald about 17 minutes
and 45 seconds to cover the full distance......funny but that's just what the WC
investigation shows.
A man could walk faster........you want to put Oswald in the area at 1:10? One
poster tried to show a 7 minute walk was possible.....you want to try?
>
>> >> > That's a difference of 1,056 feet and 3.0 minutes, not 50-74 feet and
>> >> > 10 seconds.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> This is the route shown in Ce 1119-A
>> >
>> > Doesn`t this exhibit say "All times are estimates"?
>>
>> No it says "All times are approximate" which means there is a plus or minus factor
>> that could go either way.
>
> No, I`d say it means the times can`t be checked for accuracy.
Translation....you don't like them.....
If I tried to create or use "my own times" I would be jumped on for making things up
to suit my needs.
>
>> Under the law, evidence that favors the defendent can
>> not be dismissed when there is "doubt". Times presented "approximately" create
>> doubt.
>
> No, they don`t. Exact times of events surrounding a crime are
> rarely known.
Yes they do if presented properly.
>
>> >> however the time is 13 minutes not 12
>> >> which is still short of the required time needed for Oswald to have done all
>> >> that the witnesses claim he did prior to arriving at the scene and engaging
>> >> JDT before the shooting.
>> >
>> > Possible Oz walked very, very fast. Possible he ran parts of the
>> > trip. We don`t need witnesses to Oz walking fast or running, we only
>> > need the possibility. The witnesses at the scene of the crime do the
>> > rest.
>>
>> No there are far mor factors to consider........times given by those witnesses,
>
> Unestablished times.
Based on normal daily scheduled activity and looking at one's watch.....actions that
have a basis of reality and you need to reject.
>
>> discriptions
>> of shooter,
>
> Selection of the shooter, or man with a gun, without exception, Oz
> (by those willing to make an ID).
Who are you trying to fool? You know there are elements of conflict surrounding
the discriptions of the shooter given......why deny it?
>
>>actions,
>
> Cop-killing. It wasn`t even the last time he tried to kill a cop
> that day.
another presented action you can't prove.
>
>> motive
>
> Continue his killing spree of political figures. Next stop,
> Walker`s house.
Another Clark....Walker was out of town. Was Oswald going to keep on walking
around Walker's house until he returned to Dallas? Get real.
>
>>and intent,
>
> To get past Tippit.
There would have been no reason for Oswald to be stopped by Tippit. JDT was
not interested in anything related to the killing of JFK miles away. If he was he
would have responded to the car chase on W.Davis or Zang since he was the
only patrol car in the area.
>
>> etc etc.......just about anything is a "possibility"....but
>> you need more to establish guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.
>
> What I was addressing was the possibility vs. impossibility of Oz being
> at 10th and Patton when Tippit was killed. Does the timeline establish Oz
> could not be there?
>
In my opinion the timeline presented by CE 1119-A and the WC investigation
support Oswald could not kill JDT. Fingerprints on the car from the shooter
confirm that opinion...since those prints are not Oswald's.
>> >> Accordingly to fit the time frame Oswald can not stand outside the rooming house
>> >> as seen by Roberts....nor can he lean into the car to talk to JDT.
>> >
>> > We don`t have that precission. There isn`t one verifiable
>> > absolutely correct time in the whole timeline (unless the bus
>> > transfer Oz got was stamped with a time).
>>
>> The offical times presented are as good as it can get........
>
> But can`t be used to rule out Oz being at 10th and Patton when
> Tippit was killed.
Yes it can......it is the duty of the prosecution to present the facts at hand and
it is the duty of the defense to show that those facts are wrong....you believe
the facts presented by the prosecution are wrong....therefore how hard would
it be to show reasonable doubt?
You don't want to accept the facts presented but you want others to.......double standard.
>
>>that's why we have to
>> take into consideration all known factors and then evaluate the unknown factors...
>> like the reason for Oswald to be in that location....(NONE)
>
> Obviously he was in transit.
No it is not obvious......there is nothing presented in that area for Oswald to be
going to. You have to make up a trip to Walker house to fill in that major hole.
>
>> the reason for JDT
>> to be in that location (NONE)
>
> He was ordered to Oak Cliff. The explaination of why is on record.
Oak Cliff is a large section for one officer to handle.....I have no problem with
that fact.......now address the issue of why JDT was parking his car at 10th and
Patton to be killed instead of handling the normal police activity "at large" in the
Oak Cliff area. There was a car accident near Neely, there was a car chase
on W. Davis and or Zang yet JDT is presented on 10th watching a man walk
down the street.
> If you don`t like the official explaination, they really just can`t
> write a better one just to suit you.
I have no problem with the offical assignment to Oak Cliff.....the problem is understanding
why JDT was not doing his job and gets killed.
>
>>.......all these facts have to considered....not just
>> the time distance factor.......however there is just not enough time to accomplish
>> all actions presented because of the minimum 12 minute needed to get from
>> point A to point B.
>
> Is 12 minutes the fastest time a person on foot can get from "A" to
> "B"? In order to determine the feat to be impossible, you`d need to
> compare it with the fastest possible time to make the trip.
Russ made a walk in the area that took 12 minutes.....the WC presents a second
consideration of a 12 minute walk. It's not just pulling out a time that the walk
could be made in.....it has to relate to the presented actions associated with the
crime. If it took 7 minutes.....you have to keep Oswald at 10th and Patton for
about 4 minutes....8 minutes/3 minutes....9 minutes/2 minutes....etc etc
>
> Look at it this way... A man is filmed using an ATM at a certain time,
> and witnesses say he robbed a bank later. Could a defense lawyer say "That
> trip from the ATM to the bank that was robbed requires my client to have
> driven at 70 MPH to get there in time to rob that bank, and you have no
> witneses to my client driving 70 MPH"? I suppose he could try it, but
> would it be likely to sway a jury?
the above has no relation to the consideration of this problem.
>
>> >> JDT and Oswald have to meet exactly at 1:16 (both arriving same point in time) JDT
>> >> has to jump out of the car and Oswald has to shoot him......without a word being
>> >> spoken between the two. You just established a conspiracy.
>> >
>> > We only need to establish Oz shot Tippit for Oz to be guilty of
>> > shooting Tippit.
>> >
>>
>> But you can't establish Oswald did in fact shoot Tippit.....
>
> <snicker> You mean I can`t get you to accept this obvious fact.
The WC does not present the case in the manner that establishes Oswald as
the killer of JDT beyond a reasonable doubt....you sure don't since you don't
accept the facts presented by the WC that are used to present the case.
If you can't accept the material presented by the WC why can't I?
>
>>you can't even clearly establish
>> Oswald could be in the area of the shooting
>
> It`s a question of whether that possibility can be ruled, a
> question of whether the timeline affords Oz an alibi.
He does not need to establish an alibi if it can't be shown he was in the area and committed
the crime. Show he can be there....provide motive and intent for him to kill JDT and then
he would....however you can't get over the first roadblock of the timeline to walk to the area.
>
>> let alone pull the trigger. Just about any reason
>> for Oswald to be there relates to "conspiracy considerations" and not some random act.
>
> By all means, present all the evidence of conspiracy you have for
> Oz being there. Suspicions and innuendo is all I`ve seen offered by
> CT. Do you have a fellow conspirator of Oz`s saying he was to meet Oz
> there?
>
I know this might be hard to understand....but I don't support any conspiracy...nor
do I try and create actions such as Oswald heading to Walker's house to kill him.
Think about it.........you create actions in your mind to cover what you can't deal with,
I just deal with the facts and present the conflict.
>> jko
>>
>>
>> >> jko
>> >
>> >
>
>
yeuhd
> No........however the WCR presents that it took Oswald 6 minutes to walk from
> Neely to his rooming house.....if so it can be considered that it took 6 minutes
> for Oswald to walk from his room to the corner of Neely and Beckly minutes
> later. Which he would have to do to go to the TKS. That's 1700 ft, about a
> third of the distance.....which means it would take Oswald about 17 minutes
> and 45 seconds to cover the full distance......funny but that's just what the WC
> investigation shows.
You often refer to "making up" times or speeds or routes. Yet that is
exactly what the Warren Commission did. It guessed at routes, it guessed
at speeds, it guessed at times. Using all of those, it made
reconstructions. The Warren Commission was fallible, and sometimes made
bad judgements, and occasionally outright errors.
The distance from the corner of Neely and Beckley to 1026 N. Beckley is
0.3 mile. The Warren Commission investigators estimated it took Oswald
5:45 minutes (not 6:00) to walk that distance. (WCR 163) However, do a
little arithmatic and you find that they used a casual walking pace of 3.1
mph. Earlene Roberts said that when Oswald came home, he was "all but
running". Use a brisk walking pace of 4 mph, and the distance is traveled
in 4:30 minutes. Use a jogging pace of 5 to 7 mph, and it takes 3:36 to
2:36 minutes. Go ahead, do the math. This is no more "making up" times or
speeds than what the WC itself did.
The shortest distance from 1026 N. Beckley to 10th & Patton is 0.8 miles.
That is not "making up" a distance, it's just a fact. Walked at 4 mph, it
takes 12.0 minutes. Jogged at 5 to 7 mph, it takes 9.6 to 6.9 minutes. Do
we have any indication at what speed Oswald was going? Yes, we do. William
Scoggins testified that when he saw Oswald on Patton he was going at "what
you might call a little trot. He did not seem in too big a hurry, but he
wasn't walking."
Now, let's go back to the WC's reconstruction of Oswald taxi ride from the
Greyhound station to his rooming house. William Whaley, Oswald's taxi
driver, went along on the reconstruction, which was timed at 5:30 minutes.
Whaley testified that he drove faster than the reconstruction, by about a
half minute. What did the WC do? Not only did they not subtract that half
minute, they rounded up to 6:00, when 5:00 was more accurate.
Using the WC's estimated departure time from the Greyhoud station of 12:48
pm, the taxi would arrive at Neely and Beckley at 12:53 pm. Using a more
realistic walking pace of 4 mph, Oswald would arrive at his rooming house
at 12:57:30 pm. Using Earlene Roberts's estimate of his spending 4 minutes
there, he would leave at 1:01:30 pm. Allow him to linger near the bus stop
for 30 seconds, it's 1:02 pm. Walking at 4 mph along the shortest route to
10th & Patton, Oswald would arrive there in 12.0 minutes, or 1:14 pm. So
yes, it was possible for Oswald to have been there by 1:14 pm, and it is a
better reconstruction than what the WC investigators did.
That isn't "making up" times any more than the WC "made up" times in its
reconstruction. You can measure the distances yourself, and do the math.
The WC made what are, in my opinion, bad choices and at least one error in
its reconstruction. The WCR is not the last word, and it is not Holy Writ.
I am saying quite plainly that I dispute the WC's reconstruction, and
offer a reasonable and demonstrable alternative.
Bud
No doubt. It is a collection of "best guesses", and should be
viewed that way.
> It is a key factor in understanding the presented
> events.....
Chronologically, it`s a good guide. It`s too crude to use to make
precise determinations from, though.
> >> the minimum time to reach
> >> the area is 12 minutes.......he would be 2-3 blocks away from shooting.
> >
> > When you say "minimum time", are you saying that it is impossible for a
> > man on foot to cover this distance faster than 12 minutes?
>
> No........
So, we both agree that Oz could make it there in time to shoot
Tippit.
>however the WCR presents that it took Oswald 6 minutes to walk from
> Neely to his rooming house....
I see no reason to assume this estimate is true. Neely is only a few
streets south of the boardinghouse. Again, not knowing the speed Oz
walked prevents making accurate assertions about his arrivals.
>.if so it can be considered that it took 6 minutes
> for Oswald to walk from his room to the corner of Neely and Beckly minutes
> later. Which he would have to do to go to the TKS. That's 1700 ft, about a
> third of the distance.....which means it would take Oswald about 17 minutes
> and 45 seconds to cover the full distance......funny but that's just what the WC
> investigation shows.
Did the WC have the speed Oz walked? Isn`t that the critical missing
data from this equations?
If you want to make the point that the WC should not have deduced it
took Oz 6 minutes to make that walk, then ignore it. It doesn`t prevent us
from viewing the known information and making determinations for
ourselves.
> A man could walk faster........you want to put Oswald in the area at 1:10? One
> poster tried to show a 7 minute walk was possible.....you want to try?
In my younger days, I walked to a school about that far away, a little
over a mile. As I remember, I used to leave about 10 minutes before I had
to be in. Like I said, the only real consideration is whther Oz could get
to the murder scene in time to shoot Tippit. Such a determination needs
the fastest walk possible to make the call of what is possible or
impossible.
> >> >> > That's a difference of 1,056 feet and 3.0 minutes, not 50-74 feet and
> >> >> > 10 seconds.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> This is the route shown in Ce 1119-A
> >> >
> >> > Doesn`t this exhibit say "All times are estimates"?
> >>
> >> No it says "All times are approximate" which means there is a plus or minus factor
> >> that could go either way.
> >
> > No, I`d say it means the times can`t be checked for accuracy.
>
> Translation....you don't like them.....
No, I clearly made the point I wanted to make about them. The times
supplied can`t be checked in any real way for accuracy. This puts them in
the realm of faith, not science. Exactlly what power did the WC have to
determine the accuracy of Roberts guesses at Oz `s arrival and departure
to the boardinhouse were? What exactly is the most she could be wrong
either way?
> If I tried to create or use "my own times" I would be jumped on for making things up
> to suit my needs.
You need only look at the data for what it is... guesses (possibly
"educated", or "best" guesses, but still guesses. The desire in the CT
camp is to somehow make them more than that.
> >> Under the law, evidence that favors the defendent can
> >> not be dismissed when there is "doubt". Times presented "approximately" create
> >> doubt.
> >
> > No, they don`t. Exact times of events surrounding a crime are
> > rarely known.
>
> Yes they do if presented properly.
No, you rarely have exact times for any of the suspects actions. Look
at Ruby, there are two established times, when he purchased the Western
Union money order, and when he shot Oz. These are the only real
established times. Now, what time, exactly did he park his car? You can
gather information a take a good guess, but it would really only be a
"guesstimate".
> >> >> however the time is 13 minutes not 12
> >> >> which is still short of the required time needed for Oswald to have done all
> >> >> that the witnesses claim he did prior to arriving at the scene and engaging
> >> >> JDT before the shooting.
> >> >
> >> > Possible Oz walked very, very fast. Possible he ran parts of the
> >> > trip. We don`t need witnesses to Oz walking fast or running, we only
> >> > need the possibility. The witnesses at the scene of the crime do the
> >> > rest.
> >>
> >> No there are far mor factors to consider........times given by those witnesses,
> >
> > Unestablished times.
>
> Based on normal daily scheduled activity
And it`s unestablished when these every day tasks were performed.
Markham said she took the bus at 1:15. Do you know for a fact when the
bus got at that corner every day?
> and looking at one's watch.....actions that
> have a basis of reality and you need to reject.
If I look at my watch, that is no guarentee that I will note the
time accurately or retain the information accurately (or at all).
Eddie Piper said he looked at a clock when Kennedy was shot, and it
read 12:55. Do you think that is when JFK was shot?
> >> discriptions
> >> of shooter,
> >
> > Selection of the shooter, or man with a gun, without exception, Oz
> > (by those willing to make an ID).
>
> Who are you trying to fool? You know there are elements of conflict surrounding
> the discriptions of the shooter given......why deny it?
Do you see the witnesses saying Oz wasn`t the man they saw? I see
them saying it was. Thats the reality.
> >>actions,
> >
> > Cop-killing. It wasn`t even the last time he tried to kill a cop
> > that day.
>
> another presented action you can't prove.
Again with the word "prove". It can be shown, but not to those
unwilling to see. He puched the cop and pulled the gun. I`m sure that
was just his way of handing it over.
> >> motive
> >
> > Continue his killing spree of political figures. Next stop,
> > Walker`s house.
>
> Another Clark....Walker was out of town.
Yah, I know that, but did Oz?
> Was Oswald going to keep on walking
> around Walker's house until he returned to Dallas? Get real.
Why wouldn`t Oz expect him to be at the same location he was the
last time he tried to kill him?
> >>and intent,
> >
> > To get past Tippit.
>
> There would have been no reason for Oswald to be stopped by Tippit. JDT was
> not interested in anything related to the killing of JFK miles away. If he was he
> would have responded to the car chase on W.Davis or Zang since he was the
> only patrol car in the area.
Neither Tippit or Oz explained why they were there. Without input
from the primary chracters, how can you expect to make such
determinations?
> >> etc etc.......just about anything is a "possibility"....but
> >> you need more to establish guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.
> >
> > What I was addressing was the possibility vs. impossibility of Oz being
> > at 10th and Patton when Tippit was killed. Does the timeline establish Oz
> > could not be there?
> >
>
> In my opinion the timeline presented by CE 1119-A and the WC investigation
> support Oswald could not kill JDT.
But it does not establish Oz couldn`t be there, which is the only
real consideration.
> Fingerprints on the car from the shooter
> confirm that opinion...since those prints are not Oswald's.
<snicker> Only killers leave fingerprints?
> >> >> Accordingly to fit the time frame Oswald can not stand outside the rooming house
> >> >> as seen by Roberts....nor can he lean into the car to talk to JDT.
> >> >
> >> > We don`t have that precission. There isn`t one verifiable
> >> > absolutely correct time in the whole timeline (unless the bus
> >> > transfer Oz got was stamped with a time).
> >>
> >> The offical times presented are as good as it can get........
> >
> > But can`t be used to rule out Oz being at 10th and Patton when
> > Tippit was killed.
>
> Yes it can......
No, they can`t. The times are not established times. The WC is not
stating any particular event occurred at any specific time.
>it is the duty of the prosecution to present the facts at hand and
> it is the duty of the defense to show that those facts are wrong....you believe
> the facts presented by the prosecution are wrong....therefore how hard would
> it be to show reasonable doubt?
Why are you talking about "facts". The times presented aren`t
"facts", they are approximations.
> You don't want to accept the facts presented but you want others to.......double standard.
The times given are not concrete, and were never represented by the
WC as concrete.
> >>that's why we have to
> >> take into consideration all known factors and then evaluate the unknown factors...
> >> like the reason for Oswald to be in that location....(NONE)
> >
> > Obviously he was in transit.
>
> No it is not obvious
It`s pretty obvious he wasn`t at his destination, so he must have
been in transit to whatever that destination was.
>......there is nothing presented in that area for Oswald to be
> going to. You have to make up a trip to Walker house to fill in that major hole.
No, I don`t "make up", I conclude looking at other things in the
evidence that this was his destination. I didn`t pick a name out of
the blue, this is a person that there is evidence Oz tried to kill
before.
> >> the reason for JDT
> >> to be in that location (NONE)
> >
> > He was ordered to Oak Cliff. The explaination of why is on record.
>
> Oak Cliff is a large section for one officer to handle.....I have no problem with
> that fact.......now address the issue of why JDT was parking his car at 10th and
> Patton to be killed instead of handling the normal police activity "at large" in the
> Oak Cliff area.
How do you suppose I could get that information, seance? Is it
unusual for police to move around at their own descretion and whims?
>There was a car accident near Neely, there was a car chase
> on W. Davis and or Zang yet JDT is presented on 10th watching a man walk
> down the street.
Unknown. Where does unknown get you? Is it normal to be suspicious
of a murder victim`s actions?
> > If you don`t like the official explaination, they really just can`t
> > write a better one just to suit you.
>
> I have no problem with the offical assignment to Oak Cliff.....the problem is understanding
> why JDT was not doing his job and gets killed.
You don`t know that he wasn`t doing his job when he got killed.
> >>.......all these facts have to considered....not just
> >> the time distance factor.......however there is just not enough time to accomplish
> >> all actions presented because of the minimum 12 minute needed to get from
> >> point A to point B.
> >
> > Is 12 minutes the fastest time a person on foot can get from "A" to
> > "B"? In order to determine the feat to be impossible, you`d need to
> > compare it with the fastest possible time to make the trip.
>
> Russ made a walk in the area that took 12 minutes.....
Could he have made it faster?
>the WC presents a second
> consideration of a 12 minute walk. It's not just pulling out a time that the walk
> could be made in.....it has to relate to the presented actions associated with the
> crime. If it took 7 minutes.....you have to keep Oswald at 10th and Patton for
> about 4 minutes....8 minutes/3 minutes....9 minutes/2 minutes....etc etc
I was merely trying to determine the fastest time the walk could be
made, to determine whether Oz had the time to get there and kill
Tippit. That is what we are trying to determine, isn`t it?
> > Look at it this way... A man is filmed using an ATM at a certain time,
> > and witnesses say he robbed a bank later. Could a defense lawyer say "That
> > trip from the ATM to the bank that was robbed requires my client to have
> > driven at 70 MPH to get there in time to rob that bank, and you have no
> > witneses to my client driving 70 MPH"? I suppose he could try it, but
> > would it be likely to sway a jury?
>
> the above has no relation to the consideration of this problem.
The speed traveled has no bearing on the time it takes to make the
trip? It`s the most inportant data, and it`s unknown in the Oz case
(same for his descent from the 6th floor to the lunchroom).
> >> >> JDT and Oswald have to meet exactly at 1:16 (both arriving same point in time) JDT
> >> >> has to jump out of the car and Oswald has to shoot him......without a word being
> >> >> spoken between the two. You just established a conspiracy.
> >> >
> >> > We only need to establish Oz shot Tippit for Oz to be guilty of
> >> > shooting Tippit.
> >> >
> >>
> >> But you can't establish Oswald did in fact shoot Tippit.....
> >
> > <snicker> You mean I can`t get you to accept this obvious fact.
>
> The WC does not present the case in the manner that establishes Oswald as
> the killer of JDT beyond a reasonable doubt....
Not really what it was created for. I wouldn`t think anyone would
need the WC`s help to determine this obvious thing.
>you sure don't since you don't
> accept the facts presented by the WC that are used to present the case.
What evidence did they present that I disregard? I think their
timeline is what they say it is, approximate times. I don`t read
"precise" when I read "approximate".
> If you can't accept the material presented by the WC why can't I?
In what way am I not accepting this material? I just look at it
for what it is, and don`t represent it as something it is not.
> >>you can't even clearly establish
> >> Oswald could be in the area of the shooting
> >
> > It`s a question of whether that possibility can be ruled, a
> > question of whether the timeline affords Oz an alibi.
>
> He does not need to establish an alibi if it can't be shown he was in the area and committed
> the crime.
Now you are bringing up apples in a conversation about oranges. The
discussion as I understood it was about whether Oz could be at the
crime scene in time to commit the crime.
> Show he can be there....
He can be there is people say he was there.
>provide motive and intent for him to kill JDT
I`d say the final headshot Oz put into Tippit`s head showed his
intent to kill Tippit. He didn`t say why, but it`s not uncommon for
criminals not to.
>and then
> he would....however you can't get over the first roadblock of the timeline to walk to the area.
Don`t need to. Only need for the possibility of him making that
walk to remain viable. The witnesses do the rest. A defense would have
to show he could not make that walk in time. Can this be done?
The CT position is that Oz could not make that walk in time. Until
that can be established as true, with fixed and established times,
it`s just one more unsupportable claim. What prevents him from making
the walk if not time? Was he unable to walk fast?
> >> let alone pull the trigger. Just about any reason
> >> for Oswald to be there relates to "conspiracy considerations" and not some random act.
> >
> > By all means, present all the evidence of conspiracy you have for
> > Oz being there. Suspicions and innuendo is all I`ve seen offered by
> > CT. Do you have a fellow conspirator of Oz`s saying he was to meet Oz
> > there?
> >
>
> I know this might be hard to understand....but I don't support any conspiracy...nor
> do I try and create actions such as Oswald heading to Walker's house to kill him.
Neither do I. Neither did I create the evidence that indicates that
he tried to do this very act before.
> Think about it.........you create actions in your mind to cover what you can't deal with,
No, you asked questions, and I provided supportable answers. But,
Oz didn`t tell me what his intention were, so I can`t *prove* them.
But judging from his previous actions, this seems a likely course.
> I just deal with the facts and present the conflict.
The "conflict" is only your demands to have provable answers to
every aspect of the case before you can draw any conclusions. Perhaps
God will whisper these answers in your ear, because I don`t have them.
I will tell you that I can figure out that Oz killed Tipit without
them.
> >> jko
> >>
> >>
> >> >> jko
> >> >
> >> >
> >
> >
James K. Olmstead
I return
jko
doug.w...@gmail.com
Take care & speedy recovery JKO.
Douglas Wiggans
tomnln
"James K. Olmstead" <jolm...@neo.rr.com> wrote in message
news:46f3...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
>
> "yeuhd" <wal...@mailbag.com> wrote in message
> news:1190331468.7...@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> For the sake of arguement let's say Oswald could walk from his room to
> 10th and Patton
> in 7 minutes.
>
> Leaving at 1:03 (unless you want to change that too) he arrives at 10th
> and Patton at
> 1:10. He now has to stand there 4 minutes for JDT to arrive.....or
> continue
> to walk......covering another half mile or so in the next 4 minutes.
>
> There is no reason for Oswald to stand there waiting to kill JDT and there
> is nowhere
> specific down the road he has to be. Scoggins would have noticed Oswald
> standing
> or pacing in that area for several minutes....and would have said so.
>
> Either way you are screwed since you can't put Oswald at 10th and Patton
> at the time
> of the shooting with a 7 minute walk.
>
> Standing there waiting for JDT indicates conspiratorial action as well as
> pre-meditated murder.
>
> Continued walking indicates Oswald was framed for the murder, as part of a
> conspiracy, since
> he would be half a mile away, if he was walking down 10th......in his so
> called escape.
>
> Want to change the departure time to 1:07? That throws Robert's "all but
> running" observation
> out the window. Want to change the departure time to 1:02?
>
> Want to re-consider the time of the shooting? Using the discounted 1:06
> or 1:10 times
> given by witnesses? How about 1:08 as the title of this thread
> indicates......or do you want
> to make up your own?
>
> When you change one factor....you have to re-consider all the other
> factors.
>
> I don't have the file handy but I believe Oswald's pace that day can be
> estimated by the
> distance and time to walk from the cab to the rooming house. But I
> believe there is some
> conflict as to the exact point he was dropped off and where he crossed the
> street.
>
> If it took him 6 minutes to walk that distance before 1:00 it can be
> considered it took him
> the same amount of time after 1:00 to cover the same distance, in the same
> direction.
>
> This material hasn't been looked at in years so I'm at a disadvantage but
> I guess I can accept
> that pace without too much of a problem......unless somebody throws in
> wind factors.
>
> jko
>
>
>
tomnln
"yeuhd" <wal...@mailbag.com> wrote in message
news:1190355127.2...@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
tomnln
"yeuhd" <wal...@mailbag.com> wrote in message
news:1190356056.9...@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 21, 12:23 am, "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote:
>> The Warren Commission Accepted Earlene Robert's timing for Oswald
>> Arriving/Leaving 1026 N. beckley Sir.
>>
>> Are you Rejecting the WCR?
>
> Yes, I am most definitely rejecting the WCR's estimate of when Oswald
> entered and left his rooming house. Having access to the *same*
> evidence and testimony as the WC, I come to a different conclusion
> than they did. I have already explained why in my previous posts, to
> which I refer you. But to summarize, I think that the WC's
> reconstruction was flawed, and I find no reason to believe that Mrs.
> Roberts had in April 1964 a pinpoint memory of Oswald's arrival and
> exit times, and she more or less says in her testimony that she does
> not ("what time I wouldn't want to say").
>
>
Russ Burr
Well written post. There is no exact means by which to duplicate Oswald's
movements after the assassination. You'd have to take into account the
crowds Oswald had to get through on his way to the bus, how long Oswald
stayed on the bus before be bailed, the length of time to get to the cab
station, how long before he got a cab, when they left, how long it took,
how many lights they encountered, how long was Oswald was in the cab
before disembarking, the length of time it took to get to his roominghouse
and how much time he needed to change his pants, get his gun and coat.
And we have no idea what his pace was to getto Tenth and Patton.
It all comes down to estimates, nothing engraved in stone, other than wen
Oswald killed Tippit and the best way to guess that would be based on
Benevides attempt to contact the police dispatch, whic was 1:17 PM.
Russ
Russ Burr
James, I hope you'll be fine. Get well.
Respectfully,
Russ
Bud
James K. Olmstead wrote:
> I will be offline in hospital for next 12 days...
Hope it wasn`t anything I said.
>will look at thread once
> I return
I hope whatever you are facing turns out well, and I wish you a
speedy recovery.
> jko
tomnln
pssst Russ;
By 1:17 Helen Markham would have already walked down Patton to Jefferson &
ridden for 2 minutes on her 1:15 bus to work.
Don't stop posting here Russ.
"Russ Burr" <rdc...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:46f81033$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
Jean Davison
>I will be offline in hospital for next 12 days...will look at thread once I
>return
Get well soon, Jim.
Jean
>
> jko
>
>
Russ Burr
> pssst Russ;
> pssst Russ;
>
> By 1:17 Helen Markham would have already walked down Patton to
> Jefferson & ridden for 2 minutes on her 1:15 bus to work.
>
> Don't stop posting here Russ.
Weird thing Tom she watched the murder of Tippit by Oswald. She never
made the bus BTW. She went down to City Hall and picked Oswald out of a
lineup, as did both the Davis's, Callaway, Scoggins, Guinyard and
Whaley. No one absolutely no one saw him with three weapons. Get with
the program Tom. These aren't CT whoopers, there the truth.
tomnln
"Russ Burr" <rdc...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:46f94130$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
tomnln
The shells came from 3 Different Weapons.
http://whokilledjfk.net/tippit.htm
At the bottom of that page is a report from a gentleman who Taught at
Quantico.
Choke on it.
"tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:xijKi.102936$GO6...@newsfe21.lga...
Russ Burr
> Musta been 3 other guys then.
You said you read testimony? Show me the testimony of two people from the
WCT of three guys having killed Tippit. Testimony, not your websites which
are a function of your imagination. Also, include forensic testimony on
the bullets, shells and revolver. Testimony Tom. No website of yours will
do. It'll be a creative challenge for you. Excerpts from Myers's book are
ok as long as you include the WCT of two witnesses that verify your
thesis.
Good luck.
tomnln
Learn to read.
I posted a report by the man who "Taught ballistics at Quantico".
In which he concludes that the shells from the Tippit murder came from 3
different weapons.
That Report is found HERE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/tippit.htm
At bottom of the page.
I would Love to hear your view of that report.
"Russ Burr" <rdc...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:46fac58e$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
Russ Burr
> Russ;
> Learn to read.
>
> I posted a report by the man who "Taught ballistics at Quantico".
> In which he concludes that the shells from the Tippit murder came from
> 3 different weapons.
>
> That Report is found HERE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/tippit.htm
>
> At bottom of the page.
>
> I would Love to hear your view of that report.
I read you're report weeks ago and I wasn't impressed. Compare that with
Myers's assessment.
James K. Olmstead
James K. Olmstead
Russ: Operation went well.....had one of the finest neck surgical teams
in the U.S. thru VA in Cleveland at University Hospital. I had been
bumped three times over last 6 months and they made special arrangements
to do the operation at UH instead of the VA hospital.
Old rod (C4-C7) in neck removed and new rod from C2 to C7 put in. Arms
still numb but I feel that there maybe some restored use.......it will
take about 6 wks to know.....it's the third and final operation in this
area. I can type better and work mouse button easier.
thanks for your concern
jko
"Russ Burr" <rdc...@netscape.net> wrote in message news:46f8120f$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
James K. Olmstead
"Bud" <sirs...@fast.net> wrote in message news:1190678153....@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>
> James K. Olmstead wrote:
>> I will be offline in hospital for next 12 days...
>
> Hope it wasn`t anything I said.
No Bud.....I actually enjoy discussions with you. I was injured in Desert
Storm. Three years ago they had to operate on my neck... bone graft and
cage in front....the bone graft had to be repaired and a rod C4-C7 put in
the back in the next operation. Last year I lost 80% of the use of my
arms due a problem in the C-2-C-4 area of neck which the could not
pinpoint they finally found the problem and I had the rod removed and a
new one put in from C2-C7.
>
>>will look at thread once
>> I return
>
> I hope whatever you are facing turns out well, and I wish you a
> speedy recovery.
Thanks......I have more use of both arms at this time....I believe I will
be able to type and use the mouse button much better in the next few days.
Give me some time to get back on thought in the thread.
jim
James K. Olmstead
side has a new crop of LN's that are sharp cookies.
jim
"Jean Davison" <walter.jeff...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:46f8...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
James K. Olmstead
James K. Olmstead
shortly.
jim
<doug.w...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1190600850....@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
Bud
James K. Olmstead wrote:
> "Bud" <sirs...@fast.net> wrote in message news:1190678153....@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > James K. Olmstead wrote:
> >> I will be offline in hospital for next 12 days...
> >
> > Hope it wasn`t anything I said.
>
> No Bud.....I actually enjoy discussions with you.
Damn, thats not the reaction I`m going for here, you`re supposed to be
annoyed. But you are one of the few CT I actually respect, although I
still despise your position.
> I was injured in Desert
> Storm. Three years ago they had to operate on my neck... bone graft and
> cage in front....the bone graft had to be repaired and a rod C4-C7 put in
> the back in the next operation. Last year I lost 80% of the use of my
> arms due a problem in the C-2-C-4 area of neck which the could not
> pinpoint they finally found the problem and I had the rod removed and a
> new one put in from C2-C7.
I hope the new work corrects the problem. On the bright side, you
are one of the few men who doesn`t need to fear a guillotine.
> >>will look at thread once
> >> I return
> >
> > I hope whatever you are facing turns out well, and I wish you a
> > speedy recovery.
>
> Thanks......I have more use of both arms at this time....I believe I will
> be able to type and use the mouse button much better in the next few days.
Thats great. It does seem likely you`ll improve as swelling goes
down and such.
> Give me some time to get back on thought in the thread.
I think I`m spent on the issue, but you might be able to provoke a
response if you stubbornly resist taking my opinions as the last word.
>
> jim
James K. Olmstead
"Bud" <sirs...@fast.net> wrote in message news:1191681341....@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
>
> James K. Olmstead wrote:
>> "Bud" <sirs...@fast.net> wrote in message news:1190678153....@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>> >
>> > James K. Olmstead wrote:
>> >> I will be offline in hospital for next 12 days...
>> >
>> > Hope it wasn`t anything I said.
>>
>> No Bud.....I actually enjoy discussions with you.
>
> Damn, thats not the reaction I`m going for here, you`re supposed to be
> annoyed. But you are one of the few CT I actually respect, although I
> still despise your position.
No you don't.....you like looking at the truth just as much as I do.
>
>> I was injured in Desert
>> Storm. Three years ago they had to operate on my neck... bone graft and
>> cage in front....the bone graft had to be repaired and a rod C4-C7 put in
>> the back in the next operation. Last year I lost 80% of the use of my
>> arms due a problem in the C-2-C-4 area of neck which the could not
>> pinpoint they finally found the problem and I had the rod removed and a
>> new one put in from C2-C7.
>
> I hope the new work corrects the problem. On the bright side, you
> are one of the few men who doesn`t need to fear a guillotine.
>
The Dr saved me the parts removed.....titainimum (sp?) the new rod is just
about three inches longer.....I feared total loss of my arms and legs as
well as a few body functions....it's surprising how much is controled in
that area of the human body.....so far not much has been "recovered" but
that's expected.
>> >>will look at thread once
>> >> I return
>> >
>> > I hope whatever you are facing turns out well, and I wish you a
>> > speedy recovery.
>>
>> Thanks......I have more use of both arms at this time....I believe I will
>> be able to type and use the mouse button much better in the next few days.
>
> Thats great. It does seem likely you`ll improve as swelling goes
> down and such.
>
>> Give me some time to get back on thought in the thread.
>
> I think I`m spent on the issue, but you might be able to provoke a
> response if you stubbornly resist taking my opinions as the last word.
I will let the thread drop.......you understand the conflicts and I
understand your position. I had the same exchanges years ago with Dale
Myers......IMO he gave up on the Tippit issues because he could not find
the answers he wanted to find....he also gave up on the CT's back in those
days as well....most of which were not really getting anywhere new.
jko