The Orphan Shells Found in Oak Cliff and Dealey

[donald willis]

The Orphan Shells Found in Oak Cliff and Dealey

DOMINGO BENAVIDES: "I went over and picked up one [shell] in my hand, not
thinking, and I dropped it.... I took out an empty pack of cigarettes I
had and picked them up with a little stick and put them in this cigarette
package...." (v6p450)

counsel: "You saw [BARBARA] JEANETTE [DAVIS] find the shell? You saw her
pick it up from the ground?"

Virginia Davis: "Yes." (v6p463)

"The fourth shell was discovered by Barbara [Jeanette Davis]'s
sister-in-law VIRGINIA [DAVIS] about ten minutes after police left the
scene. Afraid of getting fingerprints on it, Virginia ran in the house
and got a Kleenex tissue to wrap it in. The women took the shell into the
house and put it on the mantleboard." ("With Malice" p266)

"Capt. WILL FRITZ arrived on the scene [in the depository] and the shells
were given to him" (v19p511).

"[CAPTAIN FRITZ] was the first officer that picked [the shells] up, as far
as I know, because I stood there and watched him go over and pick them up
and look at them" (testimony of Dep. Sheriff Luke Mooney/v3p286).

You will not find the initials of any of the four people cited above (in
caps) on any of the seven shells found at the Oak Cliff and Dealey scenes,
respectively. There is no chain of custody, then, for the shells found in
Dallas 11/22/63.

dcw

[Steve BH]

What in the world makes you think that civilians who find evidence like
empty brass (fired cartridge cases) are required to scratch their initials
into them? The chain of custody begins when evidence is taken into
CUSTODY. By OFFICIALS of the law, don't you know.

The chain of custody for the two cartridge cases found by the two Davis
sisters is pretty good. Virginia Davis gave her brass to C. Dhority, who
passed it to the FBI. It has three sets of FBI initials on it and became
FBI Q75 and CE594.

The .38 Special case found only a few feet away by Barbara Davis was given
by her to detective G. Doughty, who scratched GD into it. It also has the
same set of three FBI investigators on it. It was fired by Oswald's pistol
to the exclusion of all other weapons, and it only takes one empty brass
to do THAT job, identification-wise. Oswald should have taken the brass
with him, since each of the four brass cases found within 100 yards of
Tippit identify Oswald's weapon like a fingerprint. In fact, far better
than the four bullets in Tippit did.

The single Barbara Davis empty "hangs" Oswald, with good confirmation from
the Virginia Davis find. You can forget the "Poe" cases and you can even
forget half the seven witnesses who ID'd Oswald as the man who shot Tippit
and scattered brass. That B. Davis case found at 10th and Patton is
fantastic physical evidence. It came from Oswald's pistol, and one of the
four bullets in Tippit is not only the same type of .38 special ammo (from
Winchester Western) as the B. Davis case, but came from the barrel of an
odd re-chambered .38 S&W conversion to .38 Spl pistol, just like Oswald's
"Victory" snub-nosed pistol.

Add to this that Tippit is killed 10-15 minutes walk from where Oswald
left on foot, noted by a witness (E. Roberts) at his apartment 10-15
minutes before. And far less than that amount of walk from the theater
where Oswald was apprehended 40 minutes later, going roughly in the same
direction as the route from this Oak Cliff apartment to Tippit's murder.
Tippit is killed between where Oswald lived and where he was arrested.
Oswald's jacket is found near the murder site. He had opportunity.

Take the little presidential murder thing at Oswald's place of work and
the all-points-bulletin out on him by by name and appearance. And the fact
that he tried to kill ANOTHER cop with this pistol, upon apprehension: he
had motive, or certainly HE thought he did.

Add that the pistol was surely his-- he confirmed that (who could he deny
it?) and it was taken from his hand. He lied about where he got it, but
the route to his possession of it, is clear. Not that it matters in the
Tippit case, but the route to Oswald's possession of the pistol greatly
strengthens the case for his possession of the Carcano rifle, since the
identical alias and P.O. box address were used for both. And the same
handwriting, which was Oswald's.

Fire up the electric chair. Damn you, Jack Ruby.

[Anthony Marsh]

SOP for the DPD.

> dcw
>

[BOZ]

You are more annoying than Rossley.

[Steve BH]

Oh come on. Barbara Davis’ shell has FOUR sets of initials on it,
including that of the DPD detective she gave it to. I can only think
Willis is complaining that Ms. Davis herself didn’t scratch
“BD” into it!

It only takes one shell. Complain about imperfections in the others, but
what are CTs going to do with THIS one?

[donald willis]

Ah! Moving up in the world!

[donald willis]

Then, the whole idea of "chain" is kind of useless. John Q. Public can
present any evidence/shells he wants as those found at a crime scene, and
the cops just take it on faith. "Chain of faith" would be a better
phrase. But the DPD didn't really believe in chains of custody anyway.
Det. Leavelle testified that they didn't "sign" empty cartridges, though
some of their cops did (e.g., Dhority). Some just signed the bag the
evidence was collected in. Very professional!

About 20 years later, Sgt. Hill in fact told Dale Myers that he and Poe
picked up the "Benavides" shells. '63 or '83, it was all meaningless
blather, it seems.

>
> The chain of custody for the two cartridge cases found by the two Davis
> sisters is pretty good. Virginia Davis gave her brass to C. Dhority, who
> passed it to the FBI. It has three sets of FBI initials on it and became
> FBI Q75 and CE594.

Never heard the term "brass" connected with empty bullet casing,
cartridges, shells, hulls, just these latter terms....

>
> The .38 Special case found only a few feet away

A "few feet away" from WHAT? It was supposed to have been found under a
window on Patton St., which must have been some YARDS away from where
Tippit was shot, and a few yards away from where Barbara D. said she saw
him unload....

by Barbara Davis was given
> by her to detective G. Doughty, who scratched GD into it. It also has the
> same set of three FBI investigators on it. It was fired by Oswald's pistol
> to the exclusion of all other weapons, and it only takes one empty brass
> to do THAT job, identification-wise. Oswald should have taken the brass
> with him, since each of the four brass cases found within 100 yards of
> Tippit identify Oswald's weapon like a fingerprint.

And, boy, wasn't THAT handy! And WHEN and WHERE was the gun fired? Not
necessarily around 1:15pm on 10th St.

In fact, far better
> than the four bullets in Tippit did.
>
> The single Barbara Davis empty "hangs" Oswald, with good confirmation from
> the Virginia Davis find. You can forget the "Poe" cases and you can even
> forget half the seven witnesses who ID'd Oswald as the man who shot Tippit
> and scattered brass. That B. Davis case found at 10th and Patton is
> fantastic physical evidence. It came from Oswald's pistol, and one of the
> four bullets in Tippit is not only the same type of .38 special ammo (from
> Winchester Western) as the B. Davis case, but came from the barrel of an
> odd re-chambered .38 S&W conversion to .38 Spl pistol, just like Oswald's
> "Victory" snub-nosed pistol.
>
> Add to this that Tippit is killed 10-15 minutes walk from where Oswald
> left on foot, noted by a witness (E. Roberts)

Who neglected to tell the first cops to her house that Oswald was there
circa 1pm. Slipped her mind....

at his apartment 10-15
> minutes before. And far less than that amount of walk from the theater
> where Oswald was apprehended 40 minutes later, going roughly in the same
> direction as the route from this Oak Cliff apartment to Tippit's murder.
> Tippit is killed between where Oswald lived and where he was arrested.
> Oswald's jacket is found near the murder site.

In a direction opposite to that which witness Warren Reynolds told cops at
the scene that he last saw the gunman heading! (I have to add that the
man Reynolds saw was probably the man with Tippit's gun.)

He had opportunity.
>
> Take the little presidential murder thing at Oswald's place of work and
> the all-points-bulletin out on him by by name

By name? Care to retract that?

and appearance.

Which description came from a police inspector who didn't even know that
the suspect had been in the depository!

dcw

[donald willis]

Problems abound with it. Barbara D, in her 11/22 affidavit, said she
showed the cops where she saw the gunman drop a shell in her front yard
and they found one there, in the front yard. In her testimony, she says
she only saw the gunman shake shells into his hand, not DROP any in her
front yard; said amazing shell turned up on the side of the house, facing
Patton.

And you have to decide if Virginia was (a) simply ditzy when she testified
that they called the cops first, then saw the gunman, (b) just over-eager,
wanting to help the authorities, who knew that their call came in a minute
or so later than the Wright call, or (c) they saw only the man carrying
Tippit's gun. I initially went with (a), but now favor (c)....

dcw

[Anthony Marsh]

Brass is more of a handloaders type of term.

>>
>> The .38 Special case found only a few feet away
>
> A "few feet away" from WHAT? It was supposed to have been found under a
> window on Patton St., which must have been some YARDS away from where
> Tippit was shot, and a few yards away from where Barbara D. said she saw
> him unload....
>

From where Oswald was seen emptying the gun?

[Steve BH]

On Tuesday, January 16, 2018 at 11:11:51 AM UTC-8, donald willis wrote:

> > What in the world makes you think that civilians who find evidence like
> > empty brass (fired cartridge cases) are required to scratch their initials
> > into them? The chain of custody begins when evidence is taken into
> > CUSTODY. By OFFICIALS of the law, don't you know.
>
> Then, the whole idea of "chain" is kind of useless. John Q. Public can
> present any evidence/shells he wants as those found at a crime scene, and
> the cops just take it on faith. "Chain of faith" would be a better
> phrase. But the DPD didn't really believe in chains of custody anyway.
> Det. Leavelle testified that they didn't "sign" empty cartridges, though
> some of their cops did (e.g., Dhority). Some just signed the bag the
> evidence was collected in. Very professional!
>
> About 20 years later, Sgt. Hill in fact told Dale Myers that he and Poe
> picked up the "Benavides" shells. '63 or '83, it was all meaningless
> blather, it seems.

Perhaps. Chain of evidence procedures cures SOME problems, but not
others. If Sgt. Hill had been in the habit of initially cases, and gone on
and on about "automatic pistol cases" then been found to have initialed
revolver cases, it would have made things easier. As in other cases where
there are claims of mixing up of evidence in police custody. As it was
Hill was a blowhard who went on the radio after being told the cartridge
cases had been found, and ASSUMED they were auto, else why were they lying
around to be found? Wrong. The cylinder of S&W revolvers swings out
(Oswald's did) and he simply shucked them out and tossed them.

> > The chain of custody for the two cartridge cases found by the two Davis
> > sisters is pretty good. Virginia Davis gave her brass to C. Dhority, who
> > passed it to the FBI. It has three sets of FBI initials on it and became
> > FBI Q75 and CE594.
>
> Never heard the term "brass" connected with empty bullet casing,
> cartridges, shells, hulls, just these latter terms....

Expended or empty brass (or simply brass) is the term of art of the
military and handloaders. Cartridge case is used by police and forensics
experts. If you see "bullet casing," "shell casing," or anything with
"hull" you know you're hearing it from some reporter who's never fired a
small arm, let alone had to discuss one in technical terms. They just make
up stuff. Like, you know, the left side of a boat? And the real big sail
with the metal thingy it's tied down to?

> > The .38 Special case found only a few feet away
>
> A "few feet away" from WHAT?

From the other case near it! One by the window, one at the edge of the
sidewalk.

>It was supposed to have been found under a
> window on Patton St., which must have been some YARDS away from where
> Tippit was shot, and a few yards away from where Barbara D. said she saw
> him unload....

40 yards from shooting to SW corner. Into the yard or under window a few
more.

>
> by Barbara Davis was given
> > by her to detective G. Doughty, who scratched GD into it. It also has the
> > same set of three FBI investigators on it. It was fired by Oswald's pistol
> > to the exclusion of all other weapons, and it only takes one empty brass
> > to do THAT job, identification-wise. Oswald should have taken the brass
> > with him, since each of the four brass cases found within 100 yards of
> > Tippit identify Oswald's weapon like a fingerprint.
>
> And, boy, wasn't THAT handy! And WHEN and WHERE was the gun fired? Not
> necessarily around 1:15pm on 10th St.

Not necessarily anytime. Could have been replicated by aliens and never
fired at all. Could have been fired only into a water tank at Lubyanka
prison, and all KGB in area issued a supply of Oswaldovich expended brass.
Or, excuse me, Soviet Socialist Patsy Hulls.

> In fact, far better
> > than the four bullets in Tippit did.
> >
> > The single Barbara Davis empty "hangs" Oswald, with good confirmation from
> > the Virginia Davis find. You can forget the "Poe" cases and you can even
> > forget half the seven witnesses who ID'd Oswald as the man who shot Tippit
> > and scattered brass. That B. Davis case found at 10th and Patton is
> > fantastic physical evidence. It came from Oswald's pistol, and one of the
> > four bullets in Tippit is not only the same type of .38 special ammo (from
> > Winchester Western) as the B. Davis case, but came from the barrel of an
> > odd re-chambered .38 S&W conversion to .38 Spl pistol, just like Oswald's
> > "Victory" snub-nosed pistol.
> >
> > Add to this that Tippit is killed 10-15 minutes walk from where Oswald
> > left on foot, noted by a witness (E. Roberts)
>
> Who neglected to tell the first cops to her house that Oswald was there
> circa 1pm. Slipped her mind....

They asked for him by name, according to her December deposition. She
didn't know his name. All she knew was O.H.Lee, and they had no photo. So,
no connection. She saw his picture and name on TV after his capture, and
called them back.

>
>
> at his apartment 10-15
> > minutes before. And far less than that amount of walk from the theater
> > where Oswald was apprehended 40 minutes later, going roughly in the same
> > direction as the route from this Oak Cliff apartment to Tippit's murder.
> > Tippit is killed between where Oswald lived and where he was arrested.
> > Oswald's jacket is found near the murder site.
>
> In a direction opposite to that which witness Warren Reynolds told cops at
> the scene that he last saw the gunman heading! (I have to add that the
> man Reynolds saw was probably the man with Tippit's gun.)

Probably.

> He had opportunity.
> >
> > Take the little presidential murder thing at Oswald's place of work and
> > the all-points-bulletin out on him by by name
>
> By name? Care to retract that?
>
> and appearance.
>
> Which description came from a police inspector who didn't even know that
> the suspect had been in the depository!
>
> dcw

The description came from Brennan, of course. Who say him at the
depository window.

Yes, you are right about the APB and name, though he was wanted by name at
one point. Fitz sent somebody to pick up "Oswald" at his Irvine address
(the Paines) and was told "There he sits." (Having been captured in the
theater and ID'd with his own ID-- after he told them he wasn't "Hidell.")

I don't know how the police got to the Beckley address with the name of
Oswald, but again, not with an APB, just with his name as somebody missing
from the TSBD. But again, they had "Oswald" and not "Lee."

[Steve BH]

And empty cartridge cases from Oswald's pistol get into Davis' yard, less
than a mile south of the room Oswald has just left, HOW? Tippit,
remember, has been shot by a rechambered .38 special just like Oswald's.
Somebody has a pistol like Oswald, has fired brass FROM Oswald's pistol
(not just one like it), and is following Oswald.

These evil hypnotists also make Oswald himself try to shoot a cop as he is
captured, with only the web of Nick McDonald's hand saving him from a
bellyful of what killed Tippit. But yet, Oswald didn't shoot Tippit. He
was incredibly well framed for that.

Riiiiiight.

[David Von Pein]

Exactly. That's precisely the argument I made in the Preface of the book I
helped Mel Ayton write ("Beyond Reasonable Doubt"). And I'm pleased to
announce that the total number of people who have read that publication
has now risen to the fantastic total of approximately five (5)! (How 'bout
*that* for literary success?) (j/k, but not much.) :-)

BRD's PREFACE & CHAPTER 1:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1939521238?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creativeASIN=1939521238&linkCode=xm2&tag=dvsre-20#reader_B00UM80OV0

[Anthony Marsh]

On 1/17/2018 12:04 AM, donald willis wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 16, 2018 at 10:57:49 AM UTC-8, Steve BH wrote:
>> Oh come on. Barbara Davis’ shell has FOUR sets of initials on it,
>> including that of the DPD detective she gave it to. I can only think
>> Willis is complaining that Ms. Davis herself didn’t scratch
>> “BD” into it!
>>
>> It only takes one shell. Complain about imperfections in the others, but
>> what are CTs going to do with THIS one?
>

I believe that John Hunt has already dealt with the shells sufficiently.
Maybe even Dale Myers.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 1/17/2018 7:05 PM, Steve BH wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 16, 2018 at 9:04:58 PM UTC-8, donald willis wrote:
>> On Tuesday, January 16, 2018 at 10:57:49 AM UTC-8, Steve BH wrote:
>>> Oh come on. Barbara Davis’ shell has FOUR sets of initials on it,
>>> including that of the DPD detective she gave it to. I can only think
>>> Willis is complaining that Ms. Davis herself didn’t scratch
>>> “BD” into it!
>>>
>>> It only takes one shell. Complain about imperfections in the others, but
>>> what are CTs going to do with THIS one?
>>
>> Problems abound with it. Barbara D, in her 11/22 affidavit, said she
>> showed the cops where she saw the gunman drop a shell in her front yard
>> and they found one there, in the front yard. In her testimony, she says
>> she only saw the gunman shake shells into his hand, not DROP any in her
>> front yard; said amazing shell turned up on the side of the house, facing
>> Patton.
>>
>> And you have to decide if Virginia was (a) simply ditzy when she testified
>> that they called the cops first, then saw the gunman, (b) just over-eager,
>> wanting to help the authorities, who knew that their call came in a minute
>> or so later than the Wright call, or (c) they saw only the man carrying
>> Tippit's gun. I initially went with (a), but now favor (c)....
>>
>> dcw
>
> And empty cartridge cases from Oswald's pistol get into Davis' yard, less
> than a mile south of the room Oswald has just left, HOW? Tippit,

Less than ruins your argument. Less than could mean 2 feet.
And don't dangle silly questions. It only encourages the Trolls to give
silly answers. How about wind?
Maybe picked up by a dog?

> remember, has been shot by a rechambered .38 special just like Oswald's.
> Somebody has a pistol like Oswald, has fired brass FROM Oswald's pistol
> (not just one like it), and is following Oswald.
>
> These evil hypnotists also make Oswald himself try to shoot a cop as he is
> captured, with only the web of Nick McDonald's hand saving him from a
> bellyful of what killed Tippit. But yet, Oswald didn't shoot Tippit. He
> was incredibly well framed for that.
>

Some people just don't like to be arrested.

> Riiiiiight.
>

[donald willis]

Originally, I used "shell", but someone--maybe Sgt. Hill--seemed to use
"hull". And I learned to say "empty shell", not "shell", though a shell
would seem to be empty, and "empty shell" would seem to be redundant.

you know you're hearing it from some reporter who's never fired a
> small arm, let alone had to discuss one in technical terms. They just make
> up stuff. Like, you know, the left side of a boat? And the real big sail
> with the metal thingy it's tied down to?
>
>
> > > The .38 Special case found only a few feet away
> >
> > A "few feet away" from WHAT?
>
> From the other case near it! One by the window, one at the edge of the
> sidewalk.
>

Oh.

According to Dets. Potts & Senkel, she didn't have to call them back.
They were there when she ID'd him on TV.

> >
> > at his apartment 10-15
> > > minutes before. And far less than that amount of walk from the theater
> > > where Oswald was apprehended 40 minutes later, going roughly in the same
> > > direction as the route from this Oak Cliff apartment to Tippit's murder.
> > > Tippit is killed between where Oswald lived and where he was arrested.
> > > Oswald's jacket is found near the murder site.
> >
> > In a direction opposite to that which witness Warren Reynolds told cops at
> > the scene that he last saw the gunman heading! (I have to add that the
> > man Reynolds saw was probably the man with Tippit's gun.)
>
>
> Probably.
>

Supposedly, Tippit's gun was picked up & carried later, but Reynolds'
same-day witnessing makes it seem likely it was picked up some minutes
before 1:20pm & carried at least as far as the alley between 10th &
Jefferson....

>
> > He had opportunity.
> > >
> > > Take the little presidential murder thing at Oswald's place of work and
> > > the all-points-bulletin out on him by by name
> >
> > By name? Care to retract that?
> >
> > and appearance.
> >
> > Which description came from a police inspector who didn't even know that
> > the suspect had been in the depository!
> >
> > dcw
>
>
>
> The description came from Brennan, of course. Who say him at the
> depository window.
>

Insp. Sawyer's screwy testimony clouds even that issue. After he relayed
the description, he told the dispatcher that it wasn't known if the
suspect had been in the depository! I've seen a photo of Brennan outside
the depository looking up at the higher windows, so it's Brennan 1, Sawyer
0....

dcw

[donald willis]

My take is that Oswald was a part of the assassination TEAM in Dealey, and
when the cops started approaching him in the theatre, he panicked &
thought he had been betrayed by one of his fellow conspirators (in
Dealey)....

dcw

[Steve M. Galbraith]

Congratulations.

When they make the movie "based on the book" (I always like that
disclaimer; in other words, we made all up) I want Tom Selleck to play me.

Okay, just a cameo role. Hey it's Hollywood, as I said, they can make up
anything.

[Mitch Todd]

Not to be a spoilsport, but Barb D's affidavit doesn't say that
she saw the gunman drop any shells, only that he unloaded his
weapon: "I put on my shoes and went to the door and I saw this
man walking across my front yard unloading a gun." Unloading
doesn't in itself imply he dropped any shells -- he could have
simply pocketed them instead, for instance. It leads to a
possibility you haven't considered: Barb D simply didn't notice
the cartridges falling, especially when the gunman is competing
for Davis' attention with Markham's yelling.

At any rate, your possibility (c) is a non-starter. No one said
that Callaway unloaded Tippit's gun, nor would there have been
any reason to do so.

[donald willis]

Later in the same affidavit, she says she showed the police where she saw
the man unloading and they found a shell there.

>
> At any rate, your possibility (c) is a non-starter. No one said
> that Callaway unloaded Tippit's gun, nor would there have been
> any reason to do so.

Well, now, Bud has suggested that what witnesses saw on Patton was the guy
*loading* his gun....

dcw

[Bud]

I doubt that either the witnesses or myself could tell you when one
process stopped and the other started. We only know that by the time
Oswald was arrested he had a loaded gun.

[Mitch Todd]

Yes, but she still didn't say she saw him drop anything, only
that she saw him unload a pistol. It doesn't contradict her
testimony to the commission. He was walking the whole time,
so "where I saw this man emptying his gun" isn't a tightly
confined space, nor does her description of the found
cartridge's location pin it specifically to any one spot.

>> At any rate, your possibility (c) is a non-starter. No one said
>> that Callaway unloaded Tippit's gun, nor would there have been
>> any reason to do so.
>
> Well, now, Bud has suggested that what witnesses saw on Patton was the guy
> *loading* his gun....

He crossed the Davises' front yard, crossed Patton, then walked
the block from Patton to Jefferson. That gives him more than enough
time to unload and reload a revolver between Barbie D and Calloway.

[donald willis]

Her affidavit does contradict her testimony re where *her* shell was
found. In her affidavit, she says it was found where she saw him walking,
whatever exact spot that was. In her testimony, she says it was found
around the corner, dropped when he was out of their view.

dcw

[Mitch Todd]

On 1/28/2018 6:43 PM, donald willis wrote:
> On Saturday, January 27, 2018 at 2:22:04 PM UTC-8, Mitch Todd wrote:
>> On 1/24/2018 12:59 PM, donald willis wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, January 23, 2018 at 11:56:06 AM UTC-8, Mitch Todd wrote:
>>>> On 1/16/2018 11:04 PM, donald willis wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, January 16, 2018 at 10:57:49 AM UTC-8, Steve BH wrote:

>>>>>> Oh come on. Barbara Davis??? shell has FOUR sets of initials on it,

>>>>>> including that of the DPD detective she gave it to. I can only think

>>>>>> Willis is complaining that Ms. Davis herself didn???t scratch
>>>>>> ???BD??? into it!

In her testimony, she's very specific, but not in the way
you seem to think She places the location of the case
"under the window" as shown in CE534. CE534 is a photo
of the front of her house from the position of Tippit's
squad car. The only way the bullet could be under any
window in that photo was for it it be in front of the
house.

[Steve BH]

We don't even know if that was the one she saw him drop. There is other
evidence that Oswald fired at least five times, and possibly six, missing
at least once and possibly twice. There is (thus) one empty unaccounted
for to this day, plus possibly a live round that might have been dumped
with the rest, in a hurry.

[donald willis]

That drawn line on the grass is--as per her testimony--indicating the
gunman's path; the mark across it indicates where she saw him empty shells
into his hand.

dcw

[Anthony Marsh]

That's a good trick. Whenever any woman says anything, just call her ditzy.
Isn't that what you guys did to Hillary?

[Mitch Todd]

...which still puts the spot in the front yard.

[Bud]

There is also an arrow on CE 534 showing an arrow pointing to the window
she said she found the shell beneath (look over the car)...

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134#relPageId=260&tab=page

[donald willis]

Yes, the spot where she said that she saw the gunman shake a shell or two
or three into his other hand, not on the ground....

dcw

[donald willis]

And if I say that all five or six shots were from an automatic, then all
shells were found, easily, that day, near the sidewalk. No, they are not
the shells in evidence....

dcw

[donald willis]

If the line across the front of the lawn heading towards the bushes is the
path Barbara D. said the gunman took, how could a shell be found up near
that window, on the other side of the lawn?? Conversely, if a shell WAS
found there, that means the Davises said that they found THREE shells.
What happened to the other one, if so?

dcw

[Steve BH]

Pay attention. The four bullets in Tippit were not fired by any automatic
pistol known to man. They came from commercial 158 grain .38 Special ammo
of known manufacture (Remington-Peters and Winchester-Western--
specifically Western). No automatic was able to fire .38 Specials with
those heavy bullets in 1963.

Further, those four bullets had 5/R equal land-to-groove marks showing
they had been fired down a Smith & Wesson revolver barrel. No other type
pistol makes that groove pattern. The one automatic made by Smith & Wesson
(Model 39) at the time not only did not have that rifling, but it did not
accept 158 grain .38 special commercial cartridges (which were too long).
So it did not fire those cartridges for two reasons, and could not be made
to.

[Steve BH]

Benevides says:

Mr. BENAVIDES - Well, I started--I seen him throw the shells and I started to stop and pick them up, and I thought I'd better not so when I came back, after I had gotten back, I picked up the shells.
Mr. BELIN - All right. Now, you said you saw the man with the gun throw the shells?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Well, did you see the man empty his gun?
Mr. BENAVIDES - That is what he was doing. He took one out and threw it.
Mr. BELIN - Do you remember in which hand he was holding his gun?
Mr. BENAVIDES - No; I sure don't.
Mr. BELIN - Do you remember if he was trying to put anything in the gun also?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes. As he turned the corner he was putting another shell in his gun.
Mr. BELIN - You saw him?
Mr. BENAVIDES - I mean, he was acting like. I didn't see him actually put a shell in his gun, but he acted like he was trying to reload it.
Maybe he was trying to take out another shell, but he could have been reloading it or something.
Mr. BELIN - Let me ask you now, I would like to have you relate again the action of the man with the gun as you saw him now.
Mr. BENAVIDES - As I saw him, I really---I mean really got a good view of the man after the bullets were fired, he had just tuned. He was just turning away.
In other words, he was pointing toward the officer, and he had just turned away to his left, and then he started. There was a big tree, and it seemed like he started back going to the curb of the street and into the sidewalk, and then he turned and went down the sidewalk to, well, until he got in front of the corner house, and then he turned to the left there and went on down Patton Street.
Mr. BELIN - When he got in front of the corner, when you say he turned to his left, did he cut across the yard of the house, or did he go clear to the corner and turn off?
Mr. BENAVIDES - There is a big bush and he catty-cornered across the yard.
Mr. BELIN - He kitty-cornered across the yard?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes. In other words, he didn't go all the way on the sidewalk. He just cut across the yard.
Mr. BELIN - Where was he when you saw him throwing shells? Had he already started across the yard?
Mr. BENAVIDES - No, sir. He had just got back to the sidewalk when he threw the first one and when he threw the second one, he had already cut back into the yard. He just sort of cut across.
Mr. BELIN - Now you saw him throw two shells?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - You saw where he threw the shells?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Did you later go back in that area and try and find the shells?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes. Well, right after that I went back and I knew exactly where they was at, and I went over and picked up one in my hand, not thinking and I dropped it, that maybe they want fingerprints off it, so I took out an empty pack of cigarettes I had and picked them up with a little stick and put them in this cigarette package; a chrome looking shell.
Mr. BELIN - A chrome looking shell?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes, sir.



So Oswald was extracting the shells and THROWING THEM into the Davis'
front yard on 10th. Benavides is farther up 10th beyond Tippit, so he can
ONLY see what Oswald is doing before he disappears behind the Davis house
on the corner, and thus he can ONLY see shells tossed in the Davis front
yard. (Around the corner is their side yard, on Patton.)

Benavides goes and recovers two shells. Instead of commending him, you
think he's part of the plot. The Davises *each* recover one shell (giving
each one to a different cop) and never say they got more. You think they
are lying from being pressured.

That's four. We have four. You refuse to believe three people who
recovered shells at the corner of 10th and Patton, giving them to THREE
separate cops. TWO of these witnesses saw the shooter removing them from
his pistol after shooting Tippit.

Personally I think there is one more, forever lost (to make bullets and
shells match).

But so what? If we had another witness and another shell, you wouldn't
believe that either. You just want to believe whatever you like.

[donald willis]

> Benavides goes and recovers two shells. Instead of commending him, you
> think he's part of the plot. The Davises *each* recover one shell (giving
> each one to a different cop) and never say they got more. You think they
> are lying from being pressured.
>
> That's four. We have four. You refuse to believe three people who
> recovered shells at the corner of 10th and Patton, giving them to THREE
> separate cops. TWO of these witnesses saw the shooter removing them from
> his pistol after shooting Tippit.
>
> Personally I think there is one more, forever lost (to make bullets and
> shells match).
>
> But so what? If we had another witness and another shell, you wouldn't
> believe that either. You just want to believe whatever you like.

I've stated my reasons (not "whatever") for disbelieving both Benavides
and the Davises. However, in his book, Dale Myers notes that, maybe some
years later, Virginia Davis said she found a *fifth* shell. You're right,
though, I don't believe her on this point either....

dcw

[Bud]

What is the reasonable alternative to these witnesses finding shells and
handing them to the police?

[Mitch Todd]

Yep. And so what? She didn't say he simply dropped
the cases at that one spot. Nor can you be sure that
it was at exactly that spot, or that the shell was
found exactly where you want to think it was under
the window (as B.D. said).

You started this claiming that B Davis' initial
statement contradicted her later testimony on
two points, that she initially said she saw
(a) the gunman drop a shell (b) in her front
yard, but that she told the Commissioners that
she (c) she didn't see him drop any shells, and
(d) the shell was found at the side of the
house and not in the front yard.

It seems it's been demonstrated that (a)
and (d) are simply wrong, the former due to
your own inference taken the from Davis
affidavit, and the latter due to a misunderstanding
as to what the word "beside" can mean in colloquial
Texan, and not carefully enough reading the rest of
her WC deposition.

At this point, backpedalling would likely
be the better part of valor for you, but that
appears to be out of the question. The alternative-
in-use, digging for some last straw to hang onto,
doesn't look too promising. In fact, it looks like
a wast of time for both of us. What comes next is
your call.

[Steve BH]

No. That is simply a WC report error since they were putting marks on two
already existent photos. Barb D. indicates shells found by Davises on the
CE 524 photo not 534. Go look. Alas 524 is not named in the testimony. You
have to look through the CE section of 10th street photos, and there it
is. It’s the Markham placement photo. With Markham in it!

[Steve BH]

There are windows on the side of the Davis house, yo-yo.

Look at CE 524 not 34.

[Steve BH]

This is WC error from marking both 534 and 524. The marks you seek are on
524. On the Patton side.