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David Von Pein's really bad argument
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Robert Harris
Jul 7, 2014, 4:22:07 PM7/7/14
to
David Von Pein wrote:> ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
>
> Or did she [Nurse Bell] correctly tell Wade and Nolan that these were
> fragments, taken from surgery, but they misunderstood her, thinking she
> said it was a whole bullet, from Connally's "gurney"?
>
>
> DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
>
> That explanation you just laid out seems like the most reasonable one to
> believe, yes.
David, that "explanation" is idiotic.
Both men heard her say it was a whole bullet and Connally said it was a
whole bullet.
Both men said she stated that it came from Connally's gurney, and
Connally said it fell from his gurney.
And Bell flatly denied the FBI's claim that she said she gave the
fragments to Nolan. Nolan was in full dress uniform that day and she was
adamant that she gave the wrist fragments to two plain clothed agents,
who were undoubtedly, with the FBI.
Your "explanation" fails in every possible way that it could fail.
Probably the most ludicrous part of your argument is claiming that Wade
and Nolan mistakenly believed she said it came from Connally's "gurney".
That was totally unintuitive. The natural presumption would be that it
was removed in surgery. They could only have remembered "gurney", if
that was exactly what she said.
And the odds that each of them, in two different conversations,
mistakenly heard her say "gurney" is beyond calculation. And it becomes
astronomical if we consider that Connally also made the "mistake" of
stating that the bullet did indeed, fall from his gurney (or stretcher,
in his words).
David, ALL of the evidence proves that the FBI fabricated false
evidence, something they had been caught at before, in other cases.
1. Every one of the four men who originally examined the stretcher
bullet, refused to corroborate CE399 as the same bullet.
2. The initials of the only two men to have marked the stretcher bullet,
are not present on CE399, which only contains the initials of FBI
personnel who received it after it left Parkland.
3. Tomlinson was told by the FBI, to "keep his mouth shut" about the
stretcher bullet, shortly after they were able to compare his bullet
with large fragments from Dealey Plaza.
4. The FBI lied, claiming that agent Odum got a partial confirmation
from Tomlinson and Wright, as Odum himself, confirmed.
5. The FBI lied about what nursing supervisor Bell told them, regarding
the wrist fragments she processed - even claiming she said she only
processed a single fragment.
The evidence is overwhelming, David. Interested lurkers can get the
entire story, including sources, documents and verbatim statements, here:
http://jfkhistory.com/bell/bellarticle/BellArticle.html
BTW David, will you repost my entire argument at your little blog, or
will you selectively cite isolated sentences, as you usually do:-)
Robert Harris
>
> Or did she [Nurse Bell] correctly tell Wade and Nolan that these were
> fragments, taken from surgery, but they misunderstood her, thinking she
> said it was a whole bullet, from Connally's "gurney"?
>
>
> DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
>
> That explanation you just laid out seems like the most reasonable one to
> believe, yes.
David, that "explanation" is idiotic.
Both men heard her say it was a whole bullet and Connally said it was a
whole bullet.
Both men said she stated that it came from Connally's gurney, and
Connally said it fell from his gurney.
And Bell flatly denied the FBI's claim that she said she gave the
fragments to Nolan. Nolan was in full dress uniform that day and she was
adamant that she gave the wrist fragments to two plain clothed agents,
who were undoubtedly, with the FBI.
Your "explanation" fails in every possible way that it could fail.
Probably the most ludicrous part of your argument is claiming that Wade
and Nolan mistakenly believed she said it came from Connally's "gurney".
That was totally unintuitive. The natural presumption would be that it
was removed in surgery. They could only have remembered "gurney", if
that was exactly what she said.
And the odds that each of them, in two different conversations,
mistakenly heard her say "gurney" is beyond calculation. And it becomes
astronomical if we consider that Connally also made the "mistake" of
stating that the bullet did indeed, fall from his gurney (or stretcher,
in his words).
David, ALL of the evidence proves that the FBI fabricated false
evidence, something they had been caught at before, in other cases.
1. Every one of the four men who originally examined the stretcher
bullet, refused to corroborate CE399 as the same bullet.
2. The initials of the only two men to have marked the stretcher bullet,
are not present on CE399, which only contains the initials of FBI
personnel who received it after it left Parkland.
3. Tomlinson was told by the FBI, to "keep his mouth shut" about the
stretcher bullet, shortly after they were able to compare his bullet
with large fragments from Dealey Plaza.
4. The FBI lied, claiming that agent Odum got a partial confirmation
from Tomlinson and Wright, as Odum himself, confirmed.
5. The FBI lied about what nursing supervisor Bell told them, regarding
the wrist fragments she processed - even claiming she said she only
processed a single fragment.
The evidence is overwhelming, David. Interested lurkers can get the
entire story, including sources, documents and verbatim statements, here:
http://jfkhistory.com/bell/bellarticle/BellArticle.html
BTW David, will you repost my entire argument at your little blog, or
will you selectively cite isolated sentences, as you usually do:-)
Robert Harris
David Von Pein
Jul 7, 2014, 9:36:07 PM7/7/14
to
Naturally, I disagree with Mr. Harris. No "whole" bullet fell to the floor
off of Governor Connally's "gurney" in the operating room at Parkland
Memorial Hospital. And no "whole" bullet was retrieved by any nurse in the
operating room at Parkland Memorial Hospital.
It is my opinion that if such a "whole" bullet *had* been retrieved by a
nurse in Connally's operating room, it would be available to see as part
of the official record in this case today. And no such bullet exists at
all.
And since I am also of the opinion that neither the DPD or the FBI (or any
other law enforcement officials) would have had any good reason under the
moon to start "covering up" any of the evidence associated with the
wounding of President Kennedy and Governor Connally, I also therefore do
not believe that the Dallas Police or the FBI would have swept any such
"whole bullet" under the carpet following the assassination of the
President.
Call me naive and a Government-sponsored shill if you want. (It's okay,
I'm accustomed to being called those things by now.) But those are my
opinions nonetheless.
Bob Harris thinks, however, that he has PROOF beyond doubt that a whole
bullet WAS, indeed, recovered in John Connally's operating room on
11/22/63. And therefore, my "opinion" is totally worthless and is merely
the work of an "LNer" who is trying desperately to avoid the truth
regarding the alleged lies and cover-up engaged in by various authorities
after JFK was killed.
I, of course, disagree with Bob once again. He has NOT provided **proof**
that a whole bullet was recovered from Connally's stretcher. Just as Bob
has also not provided proof that a gunshot was fired at Zapruder Frame
#285.
But my definition of "proof" is probably quite different from Robert
Harris' definition. I think "proof" requires more than what Bob has
provided us.
off of Governor Connally's "gurney" in the operating room at Parkland
Memorial Hospital. And no "whole" bullet was retrieved by any nurse in the
operating room at Parkland Memorial Hospital.
It is my opinion that if such a "whole" bullet *had* been retrieved by a
nurse in Connally's operating room, it would be available to see as part
of the official record in this case today. And no such bullet exists at
all.
And since I am also of the opinion that neither the DPD or the FBI (or any
other law enforcement officials) would have had any good reason under the
moon to start "covering up" any of the evidence associated with the
wounding of President Kennedy and Governor Connally, I also therefore do
not believe that the Dallas Police or the FBI would have swept any such
"whole bullet" under the carpet following the assassination of the
President.
Call me naive and a Government-sponsored shill if you want. (It's okay,
I'm accustomed to being called those things by now.) But those are my
opinions nonetheless.
Bob Harris thinks, however, that he has PROOF beyond doubt that a whole
bullet WAS, indeed, recovered in John Connally's operating room on
11/22/63. And therefore, my "opinion" is totally worthless and is merely
the work of an "LNer" who is trying desperately to avoid the truth
regarding the alleged lies and cover-up engaged in by various authorities
after JFK was killed.
I, of course, disagree with Bob once again. He has NOT provided **proof**
that a whole bullet was recovered from Connally's stretcher. Just as Bob
has also not provided proof that a gunshot was fired at Zapruder Frame
#285.
But my definition of "proof" is probably quite different from Robert
Harris' definition. I think "proof" requires more than what Bob has
provided us.
David Von Pein
Jul 7, 2014, 10:20:12 PM7/7/14
to
ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
BTW David, will you repost my entire argument at your little blog, or will
you selectively cite isolated sentences, as you usually do[?] :-)
BTW David, will you repost my entire argument at your little blog, or will
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/07/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-737.html
OHLeeRedux
Jul 7, 2014, 10:34:18 PM7/7/14
to
I failed to have a startle reaction to Robert's latest diatribe.
BT George
Jul 8, 2014, 3:31:06 PM7/8/14
to
OHLR said:
I failed to have a startle reaction to Robert's latest diatribe.
BT George says:
I failed to have a startle reaction to Robert's latest diatribe.
...Uh-oh! That's very bad. It means he posts so much you've become
habituated.
Robert Harris
Jul 8, 2014, 3:35:20 PM7/8/14
to
David Von Pein wrote:
> Naturally, I disagree with Mr. Harris. No "whole" bullet fell to the floor
> off of Governor Connally's "gurney" in the operating room at Parkland
> Memorial Hospital.
And you confirmed that how??
> Naturally, I disagree with Mr. Harris. No "whole" bullet fell to the floor
> off of Governor Connally's "gurney" in the operating room at Parkland
> Memorial Hospital.
Oh, you are one of those who thinks, "If I can blurt it out it must be
true!".
John Connally was there and he disagrees with you. So was that nurse,
and she told the district attorney and officer Nolan the same thing.
> And no "whole" bullet was retrieved by any nurse in the
> operating room at Parkland Memorial Hospital.
You checked with the psychic hotline?
>
> It is my opinion that if such a "whole" bullet *had* been retrieved by a
> nurse in Connally's operating room, it would be available to see as part
> of the official record in this case today.
I'll go with the opinions of the people who were there and corroborated
each other.
> And no such bullet exists at
> all.
David, your opinion would be worthless, even if you were unbiased.
>
> And since I am also of the opinion that neither the DPD or the FBI (or any
> other law enforcement officials) would have had any good reason under the
> moon to start "covering up" any of the evidence associated with the
> wounding of President Kennedy and Governor Connally,
Tell me David, how do you interpret Hoover's statement that "the public
must be convinced.." that Oswald acted alone??
Would you call that a good reason?
Hoover meant exactly what he said. Now, you might argue that he had
benign reasons to make that proclamation, but please don't insult my
intelligence by claiming the FBI had no reason to coverup evidence of
conspiracy.
> I also therefore do
> not believe that the Dallas Police or the FBI would have swept any such
> "whole bullet" under the carpet following the assassination of the
> President.
believe. What matters are the facts and evidence, not your opinion, or mine.
FWIW, however, the DPD had nothing that I am aware of, to do with this.
>
> Call me naive and a Government-sponsored shill if you want. (It's okay,
> I'm accustomed to being called those things by now.) But those are my
> opinions nonetheless.
AND EVIDENCE - nothing less and nothing more.
>
> Bob Harris thinks, however, that he has PROOF beyond doubt that a whole
> bullet WAS, indeed, recovered in John Connally's operating room on
> 11/22/63. And therefore, my "opinion" is totally worthless and is merely
> the work of an "LNer" who is trying desperately to avoid the truth
> regarding the alleged lies and cover-up engaged in by various authorities
> after JFK was killed.
Repeat after me - facts and evidence, facts and evidence, facts and
evidence.
Do you need more repetition?
>
> I, of course, disagree with Bob once again. He has NOT provided **proof**
> that a whole bullet was recovered from Connally's stretcher. Just as Bob
> has also not provided proof that a gunshot was fired at Zapruder Frame
> #285.
The totally consistent statements of Gov. John Connally, officer Nolan,
DA Wade and nursing supervisor Audrey Bell would constitute conclusive
PROOF in any courtroom in the country.
And the absence of the initials of Johnsen and Todd on CE399, provides
HARD evidence, corroborating the fact that it was not the bullet that
Tomlinson found. That fact was further corroborated by the unanimous
refusal of all four of the men who originally examined the stretcher
bullet, to corroborate CE399.
And the dishonesty of the FBI was further corroborated by their attempts
to silence Tomlinson, after acquiring fragments which obviously, did not
match his bullet.
And David, I asked you several really important questions that you have
evaded, by snipping my entire post. You seem to do that pretty much all
the time.
Why is it that folks like you and John are always finding new and
exciting ways to dodge the tough questions?
I am particularly interested in learning how you came the conclusion
that both Nolan and Wade "misunderstood" that nurse, thinking in two
different conversations that she said the bullet came from Connally's
"gurney", which just happened to be exactly where Connally said it came
from.
>
> But my definition of "proof" is probably quite different from Robert
> Harris' definition.
We just have much different degrees of objectivity.
Robert Harris
mainframetech
Jul 8, 2014, 7:34:13 PM7/8/14
to
board in this case, but it just won't wash. The FBI was complained about
by many witnesses as to their attempts to intimidate people into changing
their statements, or to shut up altogether.
As well, they were also caught changing people's statements in their
reports:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODXoISgU-0M
Also, Wayne and Edna Hartman saw 2 gouges in the dirt in Dealey Plaza
and asked a nearby cop what they were, and they were told that they were
made by bullets. The gouges lined up with the Grassy Knoll. The Hartmans
then discovered later that the FBI had reported their statements as having
been lined up to the TSBD!!
As to needing a 'good reason' to cover up as they were shown to have
done, the FBI were subject to a hard boss in Hoover. He originated the
scenario of the 'lone nut' gunman and his people would immediately back
his image of the crime to the exclusion of all else just to keep their
jobs. This began early in the investigation. And the bullet from the
Connally surgery would have to disappear because it proved there was more
than one shooter, ruining the wacky 'single bullet' theory of the WC
lawyers.
Here's another view of the FBI and their tactics:
"Unfortunately, after Federal officials at Bethesda (on November 22-23,
1963) and Elmer Moore (between November 29-December 11, 1963) "leaned on"
Dr. Perry, he spent the remainder of his life straddling the fence and
saying that the bullet wound in JFK's throat "could have been either" an
entrance or an exit wound.
Former Chief Operating Room nurse Audrey Bell related to me in 1997
that Dr. Perry was in a state of torment on November 23, 1963, after being
pressured by Federal officials all night long to change his mind, because,
as he put it, "my professional credibility is at stake." Sadly, he appears
to have decided for the remainder of his life that discretion was the
better part of valor."
From: http://insidethearrb.livejournal.com/2370.html
The problem of the bullet that was brought out of the Connally surgery
by a nurse has too many people involved to be just a rumor started by
someone. The local DA (Wade) was involved as well as the people that told
the nurse to give it to the authorities.
Chris
cmikes
Jul 8, 2014, 7:40:57 PM7/8/14
to
On Monday, July 7, 2014 9:36:07 PM UTC-4, David Von Pein wrote:
> Naturally, I disagree with Mr. Harris. No "whole" bullet fell to the floor
>
> off of Governor Connally's "gurney" in the operating room at Parkland
>
> Memorial Hospital. And no "whole" bullet was retrieved by any nurse in the
>
> operating room at Parkland Memorial Hospital.
>
>
>
> It is my opinion that if such a "whole" bullet *had* been retrieved by a
>
> nurse in Connally's operating room, it would be available to see as part
>
> of the official record in this case today. And no such bullet exists at
>
> all.
>
>
>
> And since I am also of the opinion that neither the DPD or the FBI (or any
>
> other law enforcement officials) would have had any good reason under the
>
> moon to start "covering up" any of the evidence associated with the
>
> wounding of President Kennedy and Governor Connally, I also therefore do
>
> not believe that the Dallas Police or the FBI would have swept any such
>
> "whole bullet" under the carpet following the assassination of the
>
> President.
>
This to me has always been one of the weakest arguments for a conspiracy.
>
> off of Governor Connally's "gurney" in the operating room at Parkland
>
> Memorial Hospital. And no "whole" bullet was retrieved by any nurse in the
>
> operating room at Parkland Memorial Hospital.
>
>
>
> It is my opinion that if such a "whole" bullet *had* been retrieved by a
>
> nurse in Connally's operating room, it would be available to see as part
>
> of the official record in this case today. And no such bullet exists at
>
> all.
>
>
>
> And since I am also of the opinion that neither the DPD or the FBI (or any
>
> other law enforcement officials) would have had any good reason under the
>
> moon to start "covering up" any of the evidence associated with the
>
> wounding of President Kennedy and Governor Connally, I also therefore do
>
> not believe that the Dallas Police or the FBI would have swept any such
>
> "whole bullet" under the carpet following the assassination of the
>
> President.
>
The idea that EVERY single person that responded in any way that day was
automatically up to speed on the conspiracy, was part of the conspiracy,
and instinctively knew EXACTLY what to do to further the conspiracy seems
outlandish to me. Like in your example, the people who took possession of
the "whole bullet" from Connally just somehow knew as a matter of course
that it had to disappear and never be spoken of.
>
> Call me naive and a Government-sponsored shill if you want. (It's okay,
>
> I'm accustomed to being called those things by now.) But those are my
>
> opinions nonetheless.
>
>
>
> Bob Harris thinks, however, that he has PROOF beyond doubt that a whole
>
> bullet WAS, indeed, recovered in John Connally's operating room on
>
> 11/22/63. And therefore, my "opinion" is totally worthless and is merely
>
> the work of an "LNer" who is trying desperately to avoid the truth
>
> regarding the alleged lies and cover-up engaged in by various authorities
>
> after JFK was killed.
>
>
>
> I, of course, disagree with Bob once again. He has NOT provided **proof**
>
> that a whole bullet was recovered from Connally's stretcher. Just as Bob
>
> has also not provided proof that a gunshot was fired at Zapruder Frame
>
> #285.
>
>
>
> But my definition of "proof" is probably quite different from Robert
>
> Harris' definition. I think "proof" requires more than what Bob has
>
> provided us.
among conspiracy theorists. "If I believe it, it has been proven."
David Von Pein
Jul 8, 2014, 8:41:11 PM7/8/14
to
Robert,
Didn't Nurse Bell say in a later interview that she placed her name on
just ONE "foreign body" envelope on 11/22/63?
Just ONE envelope was handled by Audrey Bell, Bob.
And what did Audrey Bell HERSELF write on that ONE envelope?
Let's have a gander....
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0434a.htm
Didn't Nurse Bell say in a later interview that she placed her name on
just ONE "foreign body" envelope on 11/22/63?
Just ONE envelope was handled by Audrey Bell, Bob.
And what did Audrey Bell HERSELF write on that ONE envelope?
Let's have a gander....
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0434a.htm
BT George
Jul 8, 2014, 8:47:19 PM7/8/14
to
On Tuesday, July 8, 2014 2:35:20 PM UTC-5, Robert Harris wrote:
> David Von Pein wrote:
>
> > Naturally, I disagree with Mr. Harris. No "whole" bullet fell to the floor
>
> > off of Governor Connally's "gurney" in the operating room at Parkland
>
> > Memorial Hospital.
>
>
>
> And you confirmed that how??
>
>
>
> Oh, you are one of those who thinks, "If I can blurt it out it must be
>
> true!".
>
>
>
> John Connally was there and he disagrees with you. So was that nurse,
>
> and she told the district attorney and officer Nolan the same thing.
>
>
LOL! "...that nurse..." Gotta' name to go with that description yet
> David Von Pein wrote:
>
> > Naturally, I disagree with Mr. Harris. No "whole" bullet fell to the floor
>
> > off of Governor Connally's "gurney" in the operating room at Parkland
>
> > Memorial Hospital.
>
>
>
> And you confirmed that how??
>
>
>
> Oh, you are one of those who thinks, "If I can blurt it out it must be
>
> true!".
>
>
>
> John Connally was there and he disagrees with you. So was that nurse,
>
> and she told the district attorney and officer Nolan the same thing.
>
>
there Bob? ...Nope. ...I didn't think so.
>
>
>
> > And no "whole" bullet was retrieved by any nurse in the
>
> > operating room at Parkland Memorial Hospital.
>
>
>
> Oh I know!
>
>
>
> You checked with the psychic hotline?
>
>
for your theories would still look like _______________________________.
:-)
>
> >
>
> > It is my opinion that if such a "whole" bullet *had* been retrieved by a
>
> > nurse in Connally's operating room, it would be available to see as part
>
> > of the official record in this case today.
>
>
>
> Well, it's nice to know your "opinion", but if it's all the same to you,
>
> I'll go with the opinions of the people who were there and corroborated
>
> each other.
>
>
beyond the grave, spinning a yarn (vicariously through a ghost writer)
that he'd never once uttered publically on this side of the vale? :-)
>
>
>
> > And no such bullet exists at
>
> > all.
>
>
>
> More from the psychic hotline? Or is this another wishful "opinion"?
>
>
>
> David, your opinion would be worthless, even if you were unbiased.
>
>
corroborate your claims that the bullet he was shown didn't look much like
CE399? From a prior post from me:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.assassination.jfk/jxeT8nter4I/RllEZGM-vEEJ
-------------------------------prior post excerpt on---------------------
Also, isn't it true that in the *same* interview where Tomlinson mentions
the FBI calling him to tell him to keep quiet about the bullet, he also
said the following when asked by Marcus if (as far as he could tell) the
bullet shown him by the FBI appeared to be the same one he had recovered :
"Yes, it appeared to be the same one." ?
Link to full interview transcript :
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/12/marcus-tomlinson-interview-7-25-66.html
------------------------------prior post excerpt off---------------------
>
> >
>
> > And since I am also of the opinion that neither the DPD or the FBI (or any
>
> > other law enforcement officials) would have had any good reason under the
>
> > moon to start "covering up" any of the evidence associated with the
>
> > wounding of President Kennedy and Governor Connally,
>
>
>
> Your "opinions" are consistently illogical and in this case, ridiculous.
>
> Tell me David, how do you interpret Hoover's statement that "the public
>
> must be convinced.." that Oswald acted alone??
>
>
act alone it might be be good for the public to actually be *convinced* of
that *fact* rather than letting *wild* speculations keep running amok.
(Unfortunately, they still do unabated to this this day.)
>
> Would you call that a good reason?
>
>
treason" against your country and the American people and a really *BAD*
idea.
>
> Hoover meant exactly what he said. Now, you might argue that he had
>
> benign reasons to make that proclamation, but please don't insult my
>
> intelligence by claiming the FBI had no reason to coverup evidence of
>
> conspiracy.
>
>
concern on DVP's mind.
>
> > I also therefore do
>
> > not believe that the Dallas Police or the FBI would have swept any such
>
> > "whole bullet" under the carpet following the assassination of the
>
> > President.
>
>
>
> David, I wonder if you comprehend how little I care about what you
>
> believe. What matters are the facts and evidence, not your opinion, or mine.
>
periodically call him out on this stuff about every 3-6 months?
>
>
> FWIW, however, the DPD had nothing that I am aware of, to do with this.
>
>
saying thank "disintegration into eternal meaninglessness" might be more
"heart-warming" to you. :-)
>
> >
>
> > Call me naive and a Government-sponsored shill if you want. (It's okay,
>
> > I'm accustomed to being called those things by now.) But those are my
>
> > opinions nonetheless.
>
>
>
> David, this is not about you and it's not about me. IT'S ABOUT THE FACTS
>
> AND EVIDENCE - nothing less and nothing more.
>
>
Good job!
>
> >
>
> > Bob Harris thinks, however, that he has PROOF beyond doubt that a whole
>
> > bullet WAS, indeed, recovered in John Connally's operating room on
>
> > 11/22/63. And therefore, my "opinion" is totally worthless and is merely
>
> > the work of an "LNer" who is trying desperately to avoid the truth
>
> > regarding the alleged lies and cover-up engaged in by various authorities
>
> > after JFK was killed.
>
>
>
> David, your opinion would be worthless, even if I agreed with you:-)
>
>
>
> Repeat after me - facts and evidence, facts and evidence, facts and
>
> evidence.
>
>
CORROBORATING evidence sometimes and maybe you will finally be "on" to
something. :-)
>
> Do you need more repetition?
>
>
>
>
>
> >
>
> > I, of course, disagree with Bob once again. He has NOT provided **proof**
>
> > that a whole bullet was recovered from Connally's stretcher. Just as Bob
>
> > has also not provided proof that a gunshot was fired at Zapruder Frame
>
> > #285.
>
>
>
> Of course I have proof.
>
No Bob. You have *ARGUMENTS*. Lots, and lots, and lots, of *ARGUMENTS*,
>
>
> >
>
> > I, of course, disagree with Bob once again. He has NOT provided **proof**
>
> > that a whole bullet was recovered from Connally's stretcher. Just as Bob
>
> > has also not provided proof that a gunshot was fired at Zapruder Frame
>
> > #285.
>
>
>
> Of course I have proof.
>
but no *PROOF* that one could take to law enforcement, a judge, or jury
and have a *prayer* about getting reall action or a favorable verdict in
court.
>
>
> The totally consistent statements of Gov. John Connally, officer Nolan,
>
> DA Wade and nursing supervisor Audrey Bell would constitute conclusive
>
> PROOF in any courtroom in the country.
>
>
have "that nurse" going for your little tale---good luck!
GO FOR IT BOB! See your local DA right *NOW*! :-)
>
> And the absence of the initials of Johnsen and Todd on CE399, provides
>
> HARD evidence, corroborating the fact that it was not the bullet that
>
> Tomlinson found. That fact was further corroborated by the unanimous
>
> refusal of all four of the men who originally examined the stretcher
>
> bullet, to corroborate CE399.
>
>
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.assassination.jfk/jxeT8nter4I/RllEZGM-vEEJ
------------------------------prior post excerpt on---------------------------
"Refused" Bob ? You have relevant quotes or documentation to support that
terminology? Weren't the documented answers more like 'could not
positively identify' or simply "could not identify" per the various
documents linked below ?
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/html/WH_Vol24_0215b.htm
http://www.history-matters.com/essays/frameup/EvenMoreMagical/images/Slide5-1.GIF
http://www.history-matters.com/essays/frameup/EvenMoreMagical/images/Slide5-2.GIF
http://www.history-matters.com/essays/frameup/EvenMoreMagical/images/Slide6.GIF
------------------------------prior post excerpt off--------------------------
Any better cites this time?
>
> And the dishonesty of the FBI was further corroborated by their attempts
>
> to silence Tomlinson, after acquiring fragments which obviously, did not
>
> match his bullet.
>
>
------------------------------prior post excerpt on---------------------------
And you have documented proof that someone from the FBI really called him
and really said this ? If it did happen, how can you be 100% certain that
the meaning was to "keep quiet" about any discrepancies, rather than to
simply "keep quiet for now" till the facts are more fully established
and/or till this case goes to trial ? (Which of course it never did.)
------------------------------prior post excerpt off--------------------------
(BTW, his statement came from the *SAME* interview transcript I linked to
above.)
>
> And David, I asked you several really important questions that you have
>
> evaded, by snipping my entire post. You seem to do that pretty much all
>
> the time.
>
time?
>
>
> Why is it that folks like you and John are always finding new and
>
> exciting ways to dodge the tough questions?
>
>
*repetative* questions that have managed to convince "2's" of persons
(Ott/Reggie) with any knowledge of this case?
>
> I am particularly interested in learning how you came the conclusion
>
> that both Nolan and Wade "misunderstood" that nurse, thinking in two
>
> different conversations that she said the bullet came from Connally's
>
> "gurney", which just happened to be exactly where Connally said it came
>
> from.
>
>
picking through the veritably "infinite" number of nurses that were
working for Parkland and on duty that day?
>
> >
>
> > But my definition of "proof" is probably quite different from Robert
>
> > Harris' definition.
>
>
>
> No David; we both have the same definition of "proof".
>
>
central belief in Oswalds guilt. And you still
have:_____________________________ the last time I checked.
>
>
> We just have much different degrees of objectivity.
>
>
will leave the evaluation of any statement that contains the name "Bob
Harris" and the word "objectivity" not used in an ironic sense. :-)
BT George
Anthony Marsh
Jul 8, 2014, 8:51:35 PM7/8/14
to
On 7/8/2014 3:35 PM, Robert Harris wrote:
> David Von Pein wrote:
>> Naturally, I disagree with Mr. Harris. No "whole" bullet fell to the
>> floor
>> off of Governor Connally's "gurney" in the operating room at Parkland
>> Memorial Hospital.
>
> And you confirmed that how??
>
> Oh, you are one of those who thinks, "If I can blurt it out it must be
> true!".
>
> John Connally was there and he disagrees with you. So was that nurse,
> and she told the district attorney and officer Nolan the same thing.
>
No. JOhn Connally did not say that. His ghostwriter made it to fool
> David Von Pein wrote:
>> Naturally, I disagree with Mr. Harris. No "whole" bullet fell to the
>> floor
>> off of Governor Connally's "gurney" in the operating room at Parkland
>> Memorial Hospital.
>
> And you confirmed that how??
>
> Oh, you are one of those who thinks, "If I can blurt it out it must be
> true!".
>
> John Connally was there and he disagrees with you. So was that nurse,
> and she told the district attorney and officer Nolan the same thing.
>
people like you.
Anthony Marsh
Jul 8, 2014, 9:17:41 PM7/8/14
to
Robert Harris
Jul 9, 2014, 4:06:07 PM7/9/14
to
David Von Pein wrote:
> Robert,
>
> Didn't Nurse Bell say in a later interview that she placed her name on
> just ONE "foreign body" envelope on 11/22/63?
That is correct.
> Robert,
>
> Didn't Nurse Bell say in a later interview that she placed her name on
> just ONE "foreign body" envelope on 11/22/63?
>
> Just ONE envelope was handled by Audrey Bell, Bob.
initials of officer Nolan.
>
> And what did Audrey Bell HERSELF write on that ONE envelope?
The envelope was undoubtedly, the one Bell filled out. All that was
needed, was to make it appear that she gave it to Nolan. That required
someone to copy his initials, from the envelope that he really did sign.
Bell was absolutely certain that she did NOT give those four tiny
fragments to Nolan or anyone else in uniform, that day.
If she had, don't you think he would have noticed that it was labelled
as containing multiple fragments from Connally's arm?? I mean, he had to
look at that envelope, to sign it.
Other initials may have been removed from CE842. There were obvious
erasures and character fragments on that envelope.
http://jfkhistory.com/ce842x.jpg
David, you can't talk your way out of this. Four very reliable witnesses
were 100% consistent in their recollections.
It is insane, to believe that Nolan and Wade both "mistakenly" thought
that the nurse said the bullet came from Connally's gurney, while
Connally "mistakenly" thought the bullet came from his gurney.
And all three of those men were consistent that this was a whole bullet.
Do you really think that all of them made EXACTLY the same errors??
Robert Harris
Anthony Marsh
Jul 9, 2014, 8:52:20 PM7/9/14
to
NAA on them? The doctor told her to write "Bullet fragments."
Anthony Marsh
Jul 9, 2014, 8:54:42 PM7/9/14
to
On 7/8/2014 7:40 PM, cmikes wrote:
> On Monday, July 7, 2014 9:36:07 PM UTC-4, David Von Pein wrote:
>> Naturally, I disagree with Mr. Harris. No "whole" bullet fell to the floor
>>
>> off of Governor Connally's "gurney" in the operating room at Parkland
>>
>> Memorial Hospital. And no "whole" bullet was retrieved by any nurse in the
>>
>> operating room at Parkland Memorial Hospital.
>>
>>
>>
>> It is my opinion that if such a "whole" bullet *had* been retrieved by a
>>
>> nurse in Connally's operating room, it would be available to see as part
>>
>> of the official record in this case today. And no such bullet exists at
>>
>> all.
>>
>>
>>
>> And since I am also of the opinion that neither the DPD or the FBI (or any
>>
>> other law enforcement officials) would have had any good reason under the
>>
>> moon to start "covering up" any of the evidence associated with the
>>
>> wounding of President Kennedy and Governor Connally, I also therefore do
>>
>> not believe that the Dallas Police or the FBI would have swept any such
>>
>> "whole bullet" under the carpet following the assassination of the
>>
>> President.
>>
>
> This to me has always been one of the weakest arguments for a conspiracy.
> The idea that EVERY single person that responded in any way that day was
> automatically up to speed on the conspiracy, was part of the conspiracy,
> and instinctively knew EXACTLY what to do to further the conspiracy seems
> outlandish to me. Like in your example, the people who took possession of
> the "whole bullet" from Connally just somehow knew as a matter of course
> that it had to disappear and never be spoken of.
>
As usual you misrepresent their argument. Their argument is that the
> On Monday, July 7, 2014 9:36:07 PM UTC-4, David Von Pein wrote:
>> Naturally, I disagree with Mr. Harris. No "whole" bullet fell to the floor
>>
>> off of Governor Connally's "gurney" in the operating room at Parkland
>>
>> Memorial Hospital. And no "whole" bullet was retrieved by any nurse in the
>>
>> operating room at Parkland Memorial Hospital.
>>
>>
>>
>> It is my opinion that if such a "whole" bullet *had* been retrieved by a
>>
>> nurse in Connally's operating room, it would be available to see as part
>>
>> of the official record in this case today. And no such bullet exists at
>>
>> all.
>>
>>
>>
>> And since I am also of the opinion that neither the DPD or the FBI (or any
>>
>> other law enforcement officials) would have had any good reason under the
>>
>> moon to start "covering up" any of the evidence associated with the
>>
>> wounding of President Kennedy and Governor Connally, I also therefore do
>>
>> not believe that the Dallas Police or the FBI would have swept any such
>>
>> "whole bullet" under the carpet following the assassination of the
>>
>> President.
>>
>
> This to me has always been one of the weakest arguments for a conspiracy.
> The idea that EVERY single person that responded in any way that day was
> automatically up to speed on the conspiracy, was part of the conspiracy,
> and instinctively knew EXACTLY what to do to further the conspiracy seems
> outlandish to me. Like in your example, the people who took possession of
> the "whole bullet" from Connally just somehow knew as a matter of course
> that it had to disappear and never be spoken of.
>
people who actually handled the evidence, especially FBI agent Frazier
could SEE that the bullet found near the stretcher was a different type
of bullet than the bullet fragments found in the limo and had to be
thrown out.
I am not a fan of that theory, but at least get it right.
Anthony Marsh
Jul 9, 2014, 8:55:00 PM7/9/14
to
On 7/8/2014 7:40 PM, cmikes wrote:
wrong, therefore I am right."
Anthony Marsh
Jul 9, 2014, 9:43:57 PM7/9/14
to
> then discovered later that the FBI had reported their statements as having
> been lined up to the TSBD!!
>
> As to needing a 'good reason' to cover up as they were shown to have
> done, the FBI were subject to a hard boss in Hoover. He originated the
> scenario of the 'lone nut' gunman and his people would immediately back
> his image of the crime to the exclusion of all else just to keep their
> jobs. This began early in the investigation. And the bullet from the
> Connally surgery would have to disappear because it proved there was more
> than one shooter, ruining the wacky 'single bullet' theory of the WC
> lawyers.
>
> Here's another view of the FBI and their tactics:
>
> "Unfortunately, after Federal officials at Bethesda (on November 22-23,
> 1963) and Elmer Moore (between November 29-December 11, 1963) "leaned on"
> Dr. Perry, he spent the remainder of his life straddling the fence and
> saying that the bullet wound in JFK's throat "could have been either" an
> entrance or an exit wound.
>
either an entrance wound or an exit wound.
> Former Chief Operating Room nurse Audrey Bell related to me in 1997
Anthony Marsh
Jul 9, 2014, 9:54:19 PM7/9/14
to
On 7/9/2014 4:06 PM, Robert Harris wrote:
> David Von Pein wrote:
>> Robert,
>>
>> Didn't Nurse Bell say in a later interview that she placed her name on
>> just ONE "foreign body" envelope on 11/22/63?
>
> That is correct.
>
>>
>> Just ONE envelope was handled by Audrey Bell, Bob.
>
> Yes, all that was necessary, was to forge three capital letters - the
> initials of officer Nolan.
>
>>
>> And what did Audrey Bell HERSELF write on that ONE envelope?
>
> Think, David, think!
>
> The envelope was undoubtedly, the one Bell filled out. All that was
> needed, was to make it appear that she gave it to Nolan. That required
> someone to copy his initials, from the envelope that he really did sign.
>
So Bell was in on the conspiracy? Do you think Jackie was in on the
> David Von Pein wrote:
>> Robert,
>>
>> Didn't Nurse Bell say in a later interview that she placed her name on
>> just ONE "foreign body" envelope on 11/22/63?
>
> That is correct.
>
>>
>> Just ONE envelope was handled by Audrey Bell, Bob.
>
> Yes, all that was necessary, was to forge three capital letters - the
> initials of officer Nolan.
>
>>
>> And what did Audrey Bell HERSELF write on that ONE envelope?
>
> Think, David, think!
>
> The envelope was undoubtedly, the one Bell filled out. All that was
> needed, was to make it appear that she gave it to Nolan. That required
> someone to copy his initials, from the envelope that he really did sign.
>
conspiracy?
> Bell was absolutely certain that she did NOT give those four tiny
> fragments to Nolan or anyone else in uniform, that day.
>
> If she had, don't you think he would have noticed that it was labelled
> as containing multiple fragments from Connally's arm?? I mean, he had to
> look at that envelope, to sign it.
>
> Other initials may have been removed from CE842. There were obvious
> erasures and character fragments on that envelope.
>
David Von Pein
Jul 9, 2014, 11:01:30 PM7/9/14
to
ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
David, you can't talk your way out of this. Four very reliable witnesses
were 100% consistent in their recollections.
It is insane to believe that Nolan and Wade both "mistakenly" thought that
David, you can't talk your way out of this. Four very reliable witnesses
were 100% consistent in their recollections.
the nurse said the bullet came from Connally's gurney, while Connally
"mistakenly" thought the bullet came from his gurney.
And all three of those men were consistent that this was a whole bullet.
Do you really think that all of them made EXACTLY the same errors??
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
"mistakenly" thought the bullet came from his gurney.
And all three of those men were consistent that this was a whole bullet.
Do you really think that all of them made EXACTLY the same errors??
Well, Bob, since it's my firm belief that this JFK case is filled with
people who did, indeed, make "EXACTLY the same errors" --- such as the
"Grassy Knoll" witnesses (who all made "EXACTLY the same errors"); and the
three autopsy surgeons (who all, incredibly, made "EXACTLY the same error"
regarding the true location of the entry wound in President Kennedy's
head); and the many witnesses at Parkland Hospital (who all made "EXACTLY
the same error" with respect to the location of the large wound in JFK's
head) --- then yes, I do believe it's possible for multiple people to have
been of the incorrect belief that the envelope handled by Officer Bobby
Nolan contained a "bullet" rather than just "fragments", and that multiple
people might have also gotten the erroneous impression that this alleged
"whole bullet" had fallen directly off of Governor Connally's stretcher
and onto the floor.
The two key pieces of mistaken information (the "whole bullet" and
"falling from the gurney/stretcher") would have probably *started* with
just ONE person saying those things.
The erroneous information then spreads to other people, who then relay the
same mistaken information to still more people. That's how most false
rumors get started. And they can spread fast too, like the erroneous
report that spread throughout the world on 11/22/63 via radio, television,
and the newswires about how a Secret Service agent had been killed during
the assassination of JFK. But, of course, we know that no SS agent was
killed--or even shot--during the shooting in Dealey Plaza.
Robert Harris will disagree with the above scenario due to John Connally
HIMSELF, according to his own book, saying that he heard a bullet fall
from his stretcher. But Mr. Connally never SAW any such "bullet", did he
Bob? No, he didn't. So any metal object that he might have heard clinking
to the floor could conceivably have been any number of metal objects,
couldn't it? (And I have previously stated in another post the speculation
that it was perhaps one of Mr. Connally's cuff links that fell to the
floor, because one of the Governor's cuff links was never found.)
Plus, in all of Governor Connally's many interviews that he gave to the
press following the assassination, how many times did he ever say anything
at all about hearing a bullet falling to the floor in the Parkland
operating room?
The answer to that last question is: *Zero times*.
Connally never once said anything at all about any such "operating room"
bullet. It's in his book, yes. But don't you think it's a little strange
that he never mentioned this "operating room bullet" episode in any of his
many appearances that he made after November 22nd?
And you, Bob, surely can't imply that Mr. Connally was "covering up"
anything in his post-11/22 interviews, right? Because if Connally was part
of the proverbial "cover up", then he would very likely have never been so
vocal about his belief that the Single-Bullet Theory was untrue. Would he?
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