Dr, Michael Baden is getting involved in the Derek Floyd killing

[jecorb...@yahoo.com]

Due to the fact that the county coroner ruled that Derek Floyd's death was
not due directly to strangulation but by his body's reaction due to
hypertension and coronary disease, prosecuting Derek Chauvin for murder
will be problematic. Floyd's family is not satisfied with that finding and
their attorney indicated HSCA head pathologist Dr. Michael Baden is being
called in to render a second opinion. Baden was also called in to make a
determination in the Michael Brown shooting. Cause of death is going to be
critical in the prosecution of this cause because if the state can't prove
Chauvin either intended to kill Floyd or acted in a reckless manner with
nor regard for Floyd's well being, manslaughter is likely the most serious
offense they could convict Chauvin of.

[Steven M. Galbraith]

The coroner said that: "Mr. Floyd had underlying health conditions
including coronary artery disease and hypertensive heart disease. The
*combined effects* of Mr. Floyd being restrained by the police, his
underlying health conditions and any potential intoxicants in his system
likely contributed to his death."

Floyd repeatedly stated that he couldn't breathe but the officer kept his
knee on his neck and didn't allow him to sit up.

Not to be petty, his name was George Floyd not Derek.

Here's the report: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6933248-27-CR-20-12646-Complaint.html#text/p2

[Bud]

On Saturday, May 30, 2020 at 7:03:17 PM UTC-4, jecorb...@yahoo.com wrote:

> Due to the fact that the county coroner ruled that Derek Floyd's death

George Floyd`s death.

> was
> not due directly to strangulation but by his body's reaction due to
> hypertension and coronary disease, prosecuting Derek Chauvin for murder
> will be problematic.

I wrote this yesterday in the Nuthouse...

"I haven`t seen the autopsy, but I suspect two things. The guy will be
found to have died from a heart attack (it does not appear to me that the
cop has much pressure on his neck), and he has at least twice the legal
limit of alcohol in his system."

This just shows once more that when a false narrative is created, a lie
gets repeated and repeated until it becomes the truth. Facts don`t matter,
only the narrative matters. And now people are dying and cities are
burning because people fell for the lie. The assumption every new agency
in the country ran with was that there was a direct connection between the
officer`s knee being on his neck and his death, and it just wasn`t true.

> Floyd's family is not satisfied with that finding and
> their attorney indicated HSCA head pathologist Dr. Michael Baden is being
> called in to render a second opinion. Baden was also called in to make a
> determination in the Michael Brown shooting. Cause of death is going to be
> critical in the prosecution of this cause because if the state can't prove
> Chauvin either intended to kill Floyd or acted in a reckless manner with
> nor regard for Floyd's well being, manslaughter is likely the most serious
> offense they could convict Chauvin of.

Perhaps negligent homicide. He should have rendered aid, he shouldn`t
have just ignored his prisoner`s condition and vitals.

[JUDGE HOLDEN]

Good idea. I'm all in favour of a second autopsy.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 5/30/2020 7:03 PM, jecorb...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Due to the fact that the county coroner ruled that Derek Floyd's death was
> not due directly to strangulation but by his body's reaction due to
> hypertension and coronary disease, prosecuting Derek Chauvin for murder

OMG, he also killed the singer Derek Floyd? Was he out to kill ANYONE
named Floyd?
Why are YOU allowed to mention that? I would be censored.

> will be problematic. Floyd's family is not satisfied with that finding
> and

It is only problematic because he is a cop. If he wasn't a cop it would
be an open and shut case.

Well, I am still confused about their weird laws. There seems to be a tier
of charges based on who the killer is. Maybe they could charge him with
Murder 15 and he'd only get a $10 fine.

> their attorney indicated HSCA head pathologist Dr. Michael Baden is being
> called in to render a second opinion. Baden was also called in to make a
> determination in the Michael Brown shooting. Cause of death is going to be

Gee, that's real hard to figure out.
Maybe it could be poisoning or maybe Covid-19 or old age.
We can SEE him being choked and YOU can't figure out what the cause of
death is?

> critical in the prosecution of this cause because if the state can't prove
> Chauvin either intended to kill Floyd or acted in a reckless manner with

I think that would be Murder 1 in most states, but maybe not there.

> nor regard for Floyd's well being, manslaughter is likely the most serious
> offense they could convict Chauvin of.
>

Well, why can't you charge him with 15 crimes and see which one sticks?

[jecorb...@yahoo.com]

I'm sure there were underlying reasons why Chauvin's method of restraint
led to Floyd's death and that is going to make the murder charge hard to
win a conviction on but the manslaughter charge should stick. There is
simply no excuse for keeping your knee on the neck of a restrained suspect
for over 8 1/2 minutes while he is telling you he can't breathe and for
over 2 1/2 minutes after you've been told he doesn't have a pulse. The cop
should be tried and convicted and do some serious jail time. Typically
when cops are convicted of manslaughter, they receive 5-7 year sentences
and are paroled in 2-3 years. It's not out of the realm of possibility he
could get off with no jail time. That too sometimes happens with cops who
commit manslaughter. It will be interesting to see if the judge who
sentences him, and yes I am assuming a conviction, will be influenced by
the notoriety of the case and the public's demand for a lengthy sentence.
It will also be interesting to see how willing the prosecutor will be to
plea bargain.

[jecorb...@yahoo.com]

Yes, I conflated his first name with that of his killer. Thanks for the
correction.

[jecorb...@yahoo.com]

Why do you offer to work as a consultant to the Minneapolis prosecutor's
office?

[Bud]

On Sunday, May 31, 2020 at 3:55:51 PM UTC-4, Anthony Marsh wrote:

> On 5/30/2020 7:03 PM, jecorb...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > Due to the fact that the county coroner ruled that Derek Floyd's death was
> > not due directly to strangulation but by his body's reaction due to
> > hypertension and coronary disease, prosecuting Derek Chauvin for murder
>
> OMG, he also killed the singer Derek Floyd? Was he out to kill ANYONE
> named Floyd?
> Why are YOU allowed to mention that? I would be censored.
>
> > will be problematic. Floyd's family is not satisfied with that finding
> > and
>
> It is only problematic because he is a cop. If he wasn't a cop it would
> be an open and shut case.

Yes, the person would walk.

> Well, I am still confused about their weird laws. There seems to be a tier
> of charges based on who the killer is. Maybe they could charge him with
> Murder 15 and he'd only get a $10 fine.

Maybe the cops should administer a stress test on the people they arrest
to see if they can withstand the rigors of being arrested.

> > their attorney indicated HSCA head pathologist Dr. Michael Baden is being
> > called in to render a second opinion. Baden was also called in to make a
> > determination in the Michael Brown shooting. Cause of death is going to be
>
> Gee, that's real hard to figure out.
> Maybe it could be poisoning or maybe Covid-19 or old age.
> We can SEE him being choked and YOU can't figure out what the cause of
> death is?

You can`t figure out that it is impossible to say "I can`t breathe" if
you can`t breathe.

"choked" is just a lie the media told you. The cops has little pressure
on Floyd`s neck, it is no different than if it was his hand on the back of
his neck, using the knee frees his hands. Floyd is dead because of a
lifetime of poor health choices, not because of what the cop did.

> > critical in the prosecution of this cause because if the state can't prove
> > Chauvin either intended to kill Floyd or acted in a reckless manner with
>
> I think that would be Murder 1 in most states, but maybe not there.
>
> > nor regard for Floyd's well being, manslaughter is likely the most serious
> > offense they could convict Chauvin of.
> >
>
> Well, why can't you charge him with 15 crimes and see which one sticks?

The problem is that all the lies and false narratives don`t work in a
court of law, only facts do (or are supposed to). But if you a jury fully
invested in those false narrative you can get the results you desire.

[David Von Pein]

BUD SAID:

I suspect...the guy will be found to have died from a heart attack...


DAVID VON PEIN NOW SAYS:

But that makes no sense, Bud. If it was *truly* a heart attack, then the
that fact would most certainly have been brought out in the initial
autopsy report. (Especially if you buy the theory that has the coroner
being nothing but a lapdog for the Minneapolis Police.) But nothing about
a "heart attack" was brought out.

Or do you think the Minneapolis medical examiner was such a total
boob/incompetent that he couldn't recognize such a simple thing like a
heart attack when he sees it? That scenario seems highly unlikely.

BUD SAID:

The assumption every new agency in the country ran with was that there was
a direct connection between the officer's knee being on his neck and his
death, and it just wasn't true.

DVP SAYS:

So a man dies while under the heavy pressure of a policeman's knee **and**
while the victim repeatedly cries "I can't breathe". And yet I'm supposed
to believe that the "Knee On The Neck" somehow had *nothing* at all to do
with the man's death?

Yeah, right.

[David Von Pein]

BUD SAID:

The cop has little pressure on Floyd's neck...


DAVID VON PEIN SAYS:

I disagree. I've seen the full 9-minute video, and there are a couple of
times when the officer appears (to me) to be "digging in" his knee deeper
and deeper into Floyd's neck. Very disturbing images indeed.

But there are several aspects of this case that nobody in the media seems
to be talking about at all....things that I would like to know. Such as:

...Why did the police have George Floyd down on the ground like that in
the first place? What *exactly* did Floyd do to make the cops put him flat
on the ground next to the police car?

...Why did Floyd fall to the ground (apparently on his own) when he was
first being placed in the police vehicle (on the LEFT-rear side of the
car--which is not the side of the car where he was pinned and died)? What
caused that fall? A medical condition? Did Floyd trip? Did the cops strike
him in some manner to cause him to lose his balance? What exactly caused
it? Nobody has yet said.

...Additional video shows Floyd being put INTO the police car at the
LEFT-REAR of the car (after he had fallen and was picked back up). So WHY
was there any need to take Floyd back OUT of the car via the right-rear
car door (where he was then placed prone on the ground)? Was Floyd, who
was in handcuffs this whole time, doing something in the car that led the
cops to then take him back out of the vehicle? Was George kicking the
doors? What was it? Nobody seems to know.

...Was Floyd drunk? And if so, just how drunk was he? Or, was he under the
influence of some other type of drug?

Anyway, there's a lot of unanswered questions in this case.

But regardless of what the answers are to those above questions, I can't
see any way to justify the actions of Minneapolis Police Officer Derek
Chauvin, who displayed a total disregard for the life and well-being of
Mr. George Floyd on Monday, May 25, 2020.

[John McAdams]

On 31 May 2020 21:08:22 -0400, David Von Pein <davev...@aol.com>
wrote:

>BUD SAID:
>
>I suspect...the guy will be found to have died from a heart attack...
>
>
>DAVID VON PEIN NOW SAYS:
>
>But that makes no sense, Bud. If it was *truly* a heart attack, then the
>that fact would most certainly have been brought out in the initial
>autopsy report.

Are you sure?

The typical heart attack (an infarct) typically involves intense pain,
and an area of dead tissue, which should show on an autopsy.

An arrhythmia, on the other hand, may cause the heart to go into
fibrillation, and not cause anything visible on an autopys.

Of course, I'm not a doctor, I only play one on the Internet. :-)

>(Especially if you buy the theory that has the coroner
>being nothing but a lapdog for the Minneapolis Police.)

Now you are sounding like a conspiracist!

>But nothing about
>a "heart attack" was brought out.
>
>Or do you think the Minneapolis medical examiner was such a total
>boob/incompetent that he couldn't recognize such a simple thing like a
>heart attack when he sees it? That scenario seems highly unlikely.
>

I'm not sure it is, but having Baden evaluate the evidence is a good
idea.

>
>BUD SAID:
>
>The assumption every new agency in the country ran with was that there was
>a direct connection between the officer's knee being on his neck and his
>death, and it just wasn't true.
>
>
>DVP SAYS:
>
>So a man dies while under the heavy pressure of a policeman's knee **and**
>while the victim repeatedly cries "I can't breathe". And yet I'm supposed
>to believe that the "Knee On The Neck" somehow had *nothing* at all to do
>with the man's death?
>
>Yeah, right.

There are a lot of things between "nothing to do" and "the knee
strangled him."

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/6933246/Derek-Chauvin-Complaint.pdf

<Quote>

The autopsy revealed no physical findings that support a diagnosis of
traumatic asphyxia or strangulation. Mr. Floyd had underlying health

conditions including coronary artery disease and hypertensive heart

disease. The combined effects of Mr. Floyd being restrained by the

police, his underlying health conditions and any potential intoxicants
in his system likely contributed to his death.

<end quote>

Of course, none of this is to say that Chauvin is entirely innocent.

<quote>

The defendant had his knee on Mr. Floyd’s neck for 8 minutes and 46
seconds in total. Two minutes and 53 seconds of this was after Mr.
Floyd was non-responsive. Police are trained that this type of
restraint with a subject in a prone position is inherently dangerous.

<end quote>

Two pieces of information, on opposite sides of the issue:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/28/us/minneapolis-officer-complaints-george-floyd/index.html

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8366533/George-Floyd-moved-Minneapolis-start-new-life-released-prison-Texas.html

.John
-----------------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

[JUDGE HOLDEN]

Floyd must have been able to breathe when he said, "I can't breathe."

[Bud]

On Sunday, May 31, 2020 at 9:08:25 PM UTC-4, David Von Pein wrote:
> BUD SAID:
>
> I suspect...the guy will be found to have died from a heart attack...
>
>
> DAVID VON PEIN NOW SAYS:
>
> But that makes no sense, Bud. If it was *truly* a heart attack, then the
> that fact would most certainly have been brought out in the initial
> autopsy report. (Especially if you buy the theory that has the coroner
> being nothing but a lapdog for the Minneapolis Police.) But nothing about
> a "heart attack" was brought out.

This is only the preliminary report. Shortness of breath is a sign of
heart failure.


https://www.webmd.com/hypertension-high-blood-pressure/guide/hypertensive-heart-disease#1

The report said no "asphyxia or strangulation", and it found "coronary

artery disease and hypertensive heart disease".

> Or do you think the Minneapolis medical examiner was such a total
> boob/incompetent that he couldn't recognize such a simple thing like a
> heart attack when he sees it? That scenario seems highly unlikely.

The full report will likely have that as the cause of death.

> BUD SAID:
>
> The assumption every new agency in the country ran with was that there was
> a direct connection between the officer's knee being on his neck and his
> death, and it just wasn't true.
>
>
> DVP SAYS:
>
> So a man dies while under the heavy pressure of a policeman's knee **and**
> while the victim repeatedly cries "I can't breathe". And yet I'm supposed
> to believe that the "Knee On The Neck" somehow had *nothing* at all to do
> with the man's death?

Believe whatever you want to believe. You should allow for the
possibility that although the two things look connected, they are in fact
not connected.

> Yeah, right.

[Bud]

On Sunday, May 31, 2020 at 9:14:57 PM UTC-4, David Von Pein wrote:
> BUD SAID:
>
> The cop has little pressure on Floyd's neck...
>
>
> DAVID VON PEIN SAYS:
>
> I disagree. I've seen the full 9-minute video, and there are a couple of
> times when the officer appears (to me) to be "digging in" his knee deeper
> and deeper into Floyd's neck. Very disturbing images indeed.
>
> But there are several aspects of this case that nobody in the media seems
> to be talking about at all....things that I would like to know. Such as:
>
> ...Why did the police have George Floyd down on the ground like that in
> the first place? What *exactly* did Floyd do to make the cops put him flat
> on the ground next to the police car?

You might find some answers here...

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6933248-27-CR-20-12646-Complaint.html#text/p2

There are seven pages, you can page through it.

> ...Why did Floyd fall to the ground (apparently on his own) when he was
> first being placed in the police vehicle (on the LEFT-rear side of the
> car--which is not the side of the car where he was pinned and died)? What
> caused that fall? A medical condition? Did Floyd trip? Did the cops strike
> him in some manner to cause him to lose his balance? What exactly caused
> it? Nobody has yet said.
>
> ...Additional video shows Floyd being put INTO the police car at the
> LEFT-REAR of the car (after he had fallen and was picked back up). So WHY
> was there any need to take Floyd back OUT of the car via the right-rear
> car door (where he was then placed prone on the ground)? Was Floyd, who
> was in handcuffs this whole time, doing something in the car that led the
> cops to then take him back out of the vehicle? Was George kicking the
> doors? What was it? Nobody seems to know.
>
> ...Was Floyd drunk? And if so, just how drunk was he? Or, was he under the
> influence of some other type of drug?

The 911 caller said he was drunk...

https://www.tmz.com/2020/05/28/george-floyd-911-caller-cup-foods-counterfeit-bills-drunk/

[David Von Pein]

BUD SAID:

Floyd is dead because of a lifetime of poor health choices, not because of
what the cop did.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

How do you know all that about Floyd's "lifetime of poor health choices"?
I haven't heard a single word on any news network about Floyd's "poor
health choices". Where in the world did you get that info? Is it hard info
or just a wild guess?

[David Von Pein]

Oh for Pete sake. Get real. Please don't tell me that some people are
actually going to quibble about the exact words that George Floyd used in
his dying minutes as he was being gagged by the knee of Murderer Chauvin
on 5/25/20. Don't give me that lame-ass excuse. That's pathetic.

When somebody is saying "I can't breathe", they actually (technically)
mean (of course): "I'm having a hard time breathing right now."

But should we be silly enough to call Mr. Floyd a liar because he used the
words "I can't breathe" instead of using the more accurate words "I'm
having trouble breathing right now due to the fact this son-of-a-bitch
policeman from Minnesota has jammed his left knee on my neck"?

[jecorb...@yahoo.com]

On Sunday, May 31, 2020 at 10:48:53 PM UTC-4, JUDGE HOLDEN wrote:

Unless you buy the theory that Floyd coincidentally had a heart attack
when Chauvin was kneeling on his neck, Chauvin's actions triggered a
biological response by Floyd's body that led to his death. The state will
have to prove that Chauvin acted with reckless disregard for Floyd's
safety. Keeping his knee on Floyd's neck for nearly nine minutes and
disregarding his pleas that he couldn't breath, and for nearly three
minutes after being told Floyd had no pulse would seem to me to qualify as
reckless disregard.

Assuming a plea deal isn't reached, of course Chauvin's defense lawyer is
going to use the autopsy report to persuade the jury that Chauvin's
actions did not cause Floyd's death. It's hard to predict how a jury will
rule, especially when it is a cop on trial. The seam to get the benefit of
the doubt. They are entitled to the benefit of reasonable doubt but not
unreasonable doubt and jury's often give them the latter. The cop who shot
Laquan McDonald 16 times, 15 of which were fired after McDonald was laying
on the ground, was convicted of second degree murder but only got a 6 year
sentence and will probably make parole in three. I suspect if Chauvin is
convicted, he will get no more than that and probably less.

Hopefully, the feds will prosecute for a civil rights violation. That will
be easier to prove and might result in more jail time. A state jury was
unable to reach a murder conviction for the South Carolina cop who shot an
unarmed fleeing suspect in the back because of one hold out on the jury.
The cop agreed to plead guilty to the civil rights violation in exchange
for having the state charge of murder being dropped. He was expecting a
light sentence but the judge dropped the hammer on him and gave him 20
years. It's much harder to make parole in the federal prison system so he
will do most of that time.

[recip...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, May 31, 2020 at 8:37:25 PM UTC-5, John McAdams wrote:
> On 31 May 2020 21:08:22 -0400, David Von Pein <davev...@aol.com>
> wrote:
>
> >BUD SAID:
> >
> >I suspect...the guy will be found to have died from a heart attack...
> >
> >
> >DAVID VON PEIN NOW SAYS:
> >
> >But that makes no sense, Bud. If it was *truly* a heart attack, then the
> >that fact would most certainly have been brought out in the initial
> >autopsy report.
>
> Are you sure?
>
> The typical heart attack (an infarct) typically involves intense pain,
> and an area of dead tissue, which should show on an autopsy.
>
> An arrhythmia, on the other hand, may cause the heart to go into
> fibrillation, and not cause anything visible on an autopys.
>
> Of course, I'm not a doctor, I only play one on the Internet. :-)

The autopsy will certainly show a large area of dead tissue, about the
size of a dead body. The less-snarky version: in the case of a fatal heart
attack, the tissue at the site of the infarction will die a few minutes,
at most, before the rest of the body. The effects may not show just by
simple observation. I'm looking at the chapter on "Sudden Unexpected Death
from Natural Causes" in _Medicolegal Investigation of Death_, and it
appears that post-mortem evidence of a heart attack can be difficult to
find, at least at the gross anatomy level. This may be why Hennepin
Countly is playing the autopsy results close to the vest until the
appropriate tests are run on tissue and fluid samples. Even if it's a
heart attack, compression can set off a chain of events leading to heart
failure in someone susceptible to it. It wouldn't necessarily let the MDP
officers off.

[JUDGE HOLDEN]

It does look like Chauvin is applying heavy pressure. It looks like a
variation of a rear naked chokehold.

[JUDGE HOLDEN]

On Sunday, May 31, 2020 at 10:14:57 PM UTC-3, David Von Pein wrote:

Chauvin worked at the same club called El Nuevo Rodeo, the Mexican Cantina
and Dance Club.

[JUDGE HOLDEN]

On Sunday, May 31, 2020 at 10:14:57 PM UTC-3, David Von Pein wrote:

George told the police that he had claustrophobia and did not want to get
into the police car.

[jecorb...@yahoo.com]

If there was little pressure, why do it at all. Why would he not let up
when Floyd said he couldn't breathe? Why would he not let up when another
officer told him Floyd had no pulse? You seem to be one of those people
who is automatically going to take the cop's side in these incidents. This
is why it is so hard to hold cop's accountable when they commit
atrocities. All a cop needs is on person on the jury like you and they
can't be convicted.

Cops are no better and no worse than the people in the general population.
That means that there are a percentage of them who are absolute scum. It's
anybody's guess as to what that percentage is but we need to hold them
accountable when they do vile things. Firing them is just a first step.
When they commit crimes they should be prosecuted just like any other low
life criminal. Pinning a badge on one's shirt doesn't automatically make
that person a good guy and we have to shed ourselves of the mindset that
all cops are heroic figures. The truth is they are people doing a job for
a paycheck and some of them are not good people.

[JUDGE HOLDEN]

If he could talk then he had the capacity to breathe.

[JUDGE HOLDEN]

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/6933246/Derek-Chauvin-Complaint.pdf

[JUDGE HOLDEN]

On Monday, June 1, 2020 at 9:49:24 AM UTC-3, David Von Pein wrote:

Floyd had coronary artery disease and hypertensive heart disease.

[JUDGE HOLDEN]

On Monday, June 1, 2020 at 9:49:24 AM UTC-3, David Von Pein wrote:

You haven't heard a single word from the fake news networks. Why do you
watch CNN? Why do you watch MSNBC? Why do you have that stupid cartoon of
Donald Trump with his bare ass showing on your website? Get it together
for Pete Rose's sake.

[JUDGE HOLDEN]

Do you think Mr. Floyd was honest when he tried to pass a counterfeit 20
dollar bill? Lying and counterfeiting are related.

[Anthony Marsh]

I haven't. Do you mean "why DON'T I"? I don't need no damn degree. I
have eyes. I can see what happened in the video.
Why don't YOU volunteer to replicate what was done to George Floyd?

>

[Anthony Marsh]

I don't want to scare you, but here is a possibility that it was not an
accident. Do you know about the secret society of racist cops? In order to
get in they have to kill a black man. I knew a couple of them in Boston.
Can't mention the name. I also knew the President of the Black Patrolmen's
Association.

[jecorb...@yahoo.com]

I'm betting the prosecutors will offer a guilty plea to manslaughter in
exchange for the murder 3 charge being dropped. The defense will probably
argue for probation with no jail time. I can't see the prosecutor agreeing
to no jail time. That would almost surely result in another round of riots
and looting. The same if Chauvin is acquitted. If a manslaughter
conviction comes out of a plea deal or a jury verdict, I'm betting Chauvin
will do no more than 2 to 3 years.

[jecorb...@yahoo.com]

On Monday, June 1, 2020 at 12:25:59 PM UTC-4, JUDGE HOLDEN wrote:
> >
> > But should we be silly enough to call Mr. Floyd a liar because he used the
> > words "I can't breathe" instead of using the more accurate words "I'm
> > having trouble breathing right now due to the fact this son-of-a-bitch
> > policeman from Minnesota has jammed his left knee on my neck"?
>
> Do you think Mr. Floyd was honest when he tried to pass a counterfeit 20
> dollar bill? Lying and counterfeiting are related.

Lying and counterfeiting are not capital offenses, even if Floyd was
guilty of one or both. He did not commit a crime if he didn't know the $20
bill was counterfeit. Even if he did, that is no justification for the
cops taking his life. What did Floyd do after he was apprehended that
would have justified a cop placing his knee on Floyd's neck and leaving it
there for almost 9 minutes will Floyd was pleading that he couldn't
breathe?

[JUDGE HOLDEN]

Talking requires breathing. When someone says, "I can't breathe" how is he
able to say that unless he is breathing? George Floyd and police officer
Chauvin did security at El Nuevo Rodeo club. El Nuevo Rodeo was running a
counterfeiting operation.

[David Von Pein]

On Monday, June 1, 2020 at 12:25:46 PM UTC-4, JUDGE HOLDEN wrote:
> If he could talk then he had the capacity to breathe.

Then I guess you must think Dr. Michael Baden is a liar then, huh? ....

CNN Headline:

Autopsy [done by Dr. Baden] finds George Floyd's death was a homicide due
to "Asphyxiation from sustained pressure".

"Police have this false impression that if you can talk, you can breathe.
That's not true," Baden said.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/george-floyd-independent-autopsy/index.html

[recip...@gmail.com]

Who said that Floyd was the source of the counterfeit bill? Lots of people
receive counterfeits without realizing they've been had, and then pass on
the bad bill they'd been given.

[jecorb...@yahoo.com]

Yes, that was a typo. My comment was directed at what you are proposing
the Minneapolis prosecutor should do, not what you see in the video.
That's why I intended to ask you why you don't offer to act as a
consultant. I'm sure he would appreciate your help.

[jecorb...@yahoo.com]

When someone says they can't breathe, they really mean they are having
difficulty breathing. I remember reading the account of when Tim Russert
had his fatal heart attack. He was telling his coworkers he couldn't
breathe.

[JUDGE HOLDEN]

I heard Baden say that. I think Baden's autopsy is probably more accurate,
but Baden also claimed that 2 people killed Ron Goldman and Nicole Brown
Simpson. Do you believe that Baden is infallible? When did you get so
political Von Pein? I think that the two officers on Floyd's back and the
knee on his neck killed Floyd. Floyd was a perverted, pornstar asshole,
but he didn't deserve to die.

[JUDGE HOLDEN]

Baden is talking about Functional Reserve Capacity and Expiratory Reserve
Volume. Ok so my statement was false. I have a question for you. If you
are not political WHY DO YOU HAVE THAT STUPID CARTOON OF TRUMP WITH HIS
ARSE SHOWING?

[recip...@gmail.com]

Baden said, "there is no other health issue that could cause or contribute
to the death," but this statement is in argumentum ad ignorantiam
territory. Essentially, he's arguing that he couldn't come up with any
other serious issue, so the cause of death had to be compression
asphyxiation. The Hennepin County autopsy report is no better, attributing
death to "cardiac arrest." That is, they said he died because his heart
stopped. Duh!

Have the county and Baden/Wilson autopsy reports been release somewhere
where we can see them? Or is everyone still keeping everything close to
the vest?

[Bud]

On Monday, June 1, 2020 at 8:49:24 AM UTC-4, David Von Pein wrote:
> BUD SAID:
>
> Floyd is dead because of a lifetime of poor health choices, not because of
> what the cop did.
>
>
> DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
>
> How do you know all that about Floyd's "lifetime of poor health choices"?

The information is there. He bought cigarettes, and he was under the
influence of something. If you abuse your body sometimes it gives out on
you.

> I haven't heard a single word on any news network about Floyd's "poor
> health choices".

Well the autopsy is out, released by the family and conducted by Baden.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/george-floyd-family-release-results-autopsy-70994420

"Decedent experienced a cardiopulmonary arrest..."

Heart attack, like I said.

Autopsy mentions "fentanyl intoxication", which is an opioid, and recent
methamphetamine use (that`s what you want to do when you have a bad
heart).

>Where in the world did you get that info? Is it hard info
> or just a wild guess?

How did I know it would be a heart attack before the autopsy was
released? I suspect I have a better understanding of the world than you
do, you seem invested in The Narrative.

I see problems with the autopsy that might be contestable...

How did Baden determine exactly when Floyd`s heart gave out?

How does neck compression cause a heart attack?

How can restraint by police be a cause of death when restraining
criminals is their job?

[Bud]

To keep him down. I can see an advantage to it, it serves the same
purpose as if you use your hand to hold him down, but frees up your hands.

The problem is that people made an association that the knee was cutting
off air from Floyd, but this just wasn`t the case.

> Why would he not let up
> when Floyd said he couldn't breathe?

You would have to ask him.

> Why would he not let up when another
> officer told him Floyd had no pulse?

Again, you would have to ask him.

> You seem to be one of those people
> who is automatically going to take the cop's side in these incidents.

I`m one of those people who look at the whole thing. Floyd had a bad
heart and the stress of being arrested caused him to have a heart attack.
Perhaps his choices played some part on how he found himself face down
with a cop on his neck. Meanwhile, every minute of every day better people
than Floyd die and you don`t hear anything about it.

> This
> is why it is so hard to hold cop's accountable when they commit
> atrocities. All a cop needs is on person on the jury like you and they
> can't be convicted.

I would probably vote to convict him for certain crimes, depending on
how they were spelled out. But the cop was not responsible for Floyd`s bad
heart. If Floyd didn`t die this day, it would have been next week or next
month, eventually his lifestyle of abusing drugs with a bad heart would
catch up with him. On a scale of one to ten as a tragedy this is a two.

[Bud]

Yes, this is going to happen every time the angry mobs don`t get their
way, or something happens in the world they don`t like. A consequence of
treating people like children is that they will throw tantrums. On the
plus side, they all look young, so they can look forward to a lifetime of
paying off the national debt this is going to leave them. Doesn`t bother
me, I think they should give all the looters $1,000 each and reparations
to all the blacks. Hell, the Indians, too. I won`t be around when the
wheels fall off. This country is one liberal President away from being a
third world country.

[David Von Pein]

On Monday, June 1, 2020 at 10:12:36 PM UTC-4, Bud wrote:
> On Monday, June 1, 2020 at 8:49:24 AM UTC-4, David Von Pein wrote:
> > BUD SAID:
> >
> > Floyd is dead because of a lifetime of poor health choices, not because of
> > what the cop did.
> >
> >
> > DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
> >
> > How do you know all that about Floyd's "lifetime of poor health choices"?
>
> The information is there. He bought cigarettes, and he was under the
> influence of something. If you abuse your body sometimes it gives out on
> you.
>
> > I haven't heard a single word on any news network about Floyd's "poor
> > health choices".
>
> Well the autopsy is out, released by the family and conducted by Baden.
>
> https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/george-floyd-family-release-results-autopsy-70994420
>
> "Decedent experienced a cardiopulmonary arrest..."
>
> Heart attack, like I said.

Well, sure. His heart had to STOP at some point in order for him to become
DEAD. (Duh!)

But the thing that so obviously CAUSED the "cardiopulmonary arrest" was
the murderous cop's actions. We see it on the video --- George is both
ALIVE and then DEAD while under the knee of the murdering police officer.
The math's pretty easy to do here. Why can't you perform it in this case,
Bud?

>
> Autopsy mentions "fentanyl intoxication", which is an opioid, and recent
> methamphetamine use (that`s what you want to do when you have a bad
> heart).
>

Sounds like you're looking for an excuse to exonerate a murderer. That's
what JFK conspiracy theorists are supposed to do---not intelligent "LNers"
from Philadelphia.

> >Where in the world did you get that info? Is it hard info
> > or just a wild guess?
>
> How did I know it would be a heart attack before the autopsy was
> released? I suspect I have a better understanding of the world than you
> do, you seem invested in The Narrative.
>

I don't need "The Narrative" here at all. I've got eyes. And I've seen the
full 9-minute video showing the murder of Mr. Floyd.

(I hope you're not going to start crying "Fake Video!". That stunt, too,
should be reserved for JFK CTers.)

>
> How can restraint by police be a cause of death when restraining
> criminals is their job?

Your question is a really stupid one. Is it the cops' job to keep suspects
restrained for 9 consecutive minutes while the victim, who was not
resisting at all during that nine minutes, begs for air?

Your comments in this discussion are embarrassing and ridiculous, Bud.

[jecorb...@yahoo.com]

The coroner today released his official finding that Floyd's death was the
result of a homicide. Chauvin's defense team will have the option of
challenging that finding or arguing that it was a justifiable homicide. I
think they will opt for the former because the latter would be a tough
sell. If the homicide was intentional, reckless, negligent, these are all
crimes with varying degrees of seriousness. Neither Murder 3 nor
Manslaughter in Minnesota requires the homicide be intentional. A reckless
homicide can be either Murder 3 or Manslaughter. A negligent homicide I
believe is the lowest degree of Manslaughter. That's probably what
Chauvin's defense team will try to get the charge reduced to if they can't
get rid of the coroner's finding that it was a homicide. In the case of
negligent manslaughter, it's possible Chauvin could receive little to no
jail time.

[David Von Pein]

I went a little overboard when I said this to Bud earlier:

"Your comments in this discussion are embarrassing and ridiculous."

I apologize.

[Mark]

There is an understanding among good cops -- and that's about 97 percent
of them -- that once a suspect is in handcuffs and is not resisting
(kicking, spitting or head-butting) then the situation is over and you
DON'T do anything else to them but put them in the squad car and transport
them to the PD for booking.

You don't take advantage of their handcuffed vulnerability.

Obviously once Floyd was in handcuffs and on the ground, he was not
resisting. In fact, he was asking for help.

But I'm trying to keep this tragedy in perspective. Where was the black
and leftist outrage when this tragedy occurred in Chicago less than a
month ago?:

https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/2020/5/13/21256979/12-shot-2-killed-may-12-tuesday-homicide-gun-violence

This is black on black violence, the taking of lives, but the hypocritical
BLM movement doesn't say a thing. Nor does the media.

Or where was the outrage when a little girl was shot in 2018?:

https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/2020/5/13/21256979/12-shot-2-killed-may-12-tuesday-homicide-gun-violence

I can go on and on with the links to black children being killed by black
adults.

Can you explain the glaring double-standard to me?

Mark

[JUDGE HOLDEN]

David, you called him George. You are attempting to make that piece of
shit sound like a martyr. I believe that the cops did cause Pretty Boy
Floyd's death. They are guilty of killing a piece of shit.

[John McAdams]

On 2 Jun 2020 10:02:24 -0400, David Von Pein <davev...@aol.com>
wrote:

>I went a little overboard when I said this to Bud earlier:
>
>"Your comments in this discussion are embarrassing and ridiculous."
>
>I apologize.

This must be a first in the history of the Internet.

An apology for a post that was a bit overheated, but not nearly so
terrible as routine stuff on social media.

I passed the "comments' post since it addressed Bud's arguments, but
not Bud as a person.

Classy thing to do, Dave.

.John
-----------------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

[jecorb...@yahoo.com]

We survived Obama because for most of his 8 years in office, the GOP
controlled one or both houses of Congress. Unfortunately after Al Franken
was declared the winner of the GOP Senate race midway through 2009, the
Democrats held both the House and a 60 seat super majority in the Senate
which allowed them to pass Obamacare. We're lucky that was the worst they
were able to do in that time frame. I love divided government and
gridlock. The less they are able to get done the better off we all are.
The Republicans haven't shown any stomach for reducing the size of
government when they have held both houses of Congress and the White
House. They had a chance to repeal Obamacare in 2017 but a lot of them had
cold feet. Some of them were afraid to do it but didn't have the guts to
vote against repeal either. Fortunately for them they had John McCain to
fall on that hand grenade and defeat the repeal effort. He was on his way
out so it didn't matter to him.

[Bud]

On Tuesday, June 2, 2020 at 12:16:04 AM UTC-4, David Von Pein wrote:
> On Monday, June 1, 2020 at 10:12:36 PM UTC-4, Bud wrote:
> > On Monday, June 1, 2020 at 8:49:24 AM UTC-4, David Von Pein wrote:
> > > BUD SAID:
> > >
> > > Floyd is dead because of a lifetime of poor health choices, not because of
> > > what the cop did.
> > >
> > >
> > > DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
> > >
> > > How do you know all that about Floyd's "lifetime of poor health choices"?
> >
> > The information is there. He bought cigarettes, and he was under the
> > influence of something. If you abuse your body sometimes it gives out on
> > you.
> >
> > > I haven't heard a single word on any news network about Floyd's "poor
> > > health choices".
> >
> > Well the autopsy is out, released by the family and conducted by Baden.
> >
> > https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/george-floyd-family-release-results-autopsy-70994420
> >
> > "Decedent experienced a cardiopulmonary arrest..."
> >
> > Heart attack, like I said.
>
> Well, sure. His heart had to STOP at some point in order for him to become
> DEAD. (Duh!)

And if you fall off a building you are flying.

If this is the kind of arguments you are forced to make, maybe you
should reconsider your position.

The fact is that you, and almost everyone else *assumed* that the cop`s
knee was cutting off oxygen to Floyd, resulting in his death. But even
though that was not true, nobody seems to be readjusting their evaluation
of the situation, they are stick to their first impressions despite the
facts.

> But the thing that so obviously CAUSED the "cardiopulmonary arrest" was
> the murderous cop's actions. We see it on the video

And the the thing is if Floyd hadn`t committed a crime he would have had
no interaction with police. And the thing is if Floyd had taken better
care of his health he might have survived this arrest. And the thing is
that people like Floyd going around high on drugs doing whatever they like
is a bigger societal problem than the actions of this cop.

There are a lot of "things".

> --- George is both
> ALIVE and then DEAD while under the knee of the murdering police officer.

Yes, he was alive when his heart was working and he was dead when it
stopped.

> The math's pretty easy to do here. Why can't you perform it in this case,
> Bud?

"guy died, cops fault" is too simplistic for my tastes.

> >
> > Autopsy mentions "fentanyl intoxication", which is an opioid, and recent
> > methamphetamine use (that`s what you want to do when you have a bad
> > heart).
> >
>
> Sounds like you're looking for an excuse to exonerate a murderer.

I love this. *Nothing* this guy does matters, nothing does harm to the
Narrative, none of Floyd`s actions matter that led up to this, only the
cop`s actions can be looked at. The same as the Arbery case, whether he is
shown to be up to no good, shown to have a history of being up to no good
in that neighborhood, shown to attack Travis McMichaels, nothing does harm
to The Narrative of "innocent jogger slain by vigilantes.

> That's
> what JFK conspiracy theorists are supposed to do---not intelligent "LNers"
> from Philadelphia.

I`d say you are the displaying the traits of a conspiracy theorist when
you stick to The Narrative despite the facts, or want to look narrowly at
only some facts.

> > >Where in the world did you get that info? Is it hard info
> > > or just a wild guess?
> >
> > How did I know it would be a heart attack before the autopsy was
> > released? I suspect I have a better understanding of the world than you
> > do, you seem invested in The Narrative.
> >
>
> I don't need "The Narrative" here at all. I've got eyes. And I've seen the
> full 9-minute video showing the murder of Mr. Floyd.

Which you *thought* showed the cop choking Floyd to death. But despite
being wrong about this, you are still somehow right.

> (I hope you're not going to start crying "Fake Video!". That stunt, too,
> should be reserved for JFK CTers.)

Things are not always how they look. The video doesn`t capture Floyd`s
heart failing.

> > How can restraint by police be a cause of death when restraining
> > criminals is their job?
>
> Your question is a really stupid one. Is it the cops' job to keep suspects
> restrained for 9 consecutive minutes while the victim, who was not
> resisting at all during that nine minutes, begs for air?

If you are going to use "restraint" as a cause of death you have to be
able to explain how cops can arrest people without restraining them.
Because people can have heart attacks during an arrest *regardless* of how
you arrest them, and there is no reason to believe that Floyd would have
survived this attack *regardless* of how they handled it. They aren`t
paramedics.

> Your comments in this discussion are embarrassing and ridiculous, Bud.

Try reading them for comprehension.

[JUDGE HOLDEN]

I'd like to apologize to George Floyd. George, I'm sorry. I'm sorry you
are a piece of shit.

[jecorb...@yahoo.com]

People protest when it is their government and its agents that are
committing horrific acts as they should. Black on black violence for the
most part is not the result of government action. The Constitution
protects the right of the people to petition their government for redress
of grievances. That is what the PEACEFUL protesters have been doing. Of
course to say peaceful protesters is a bit redundant because if they are
not peaceful, they are not protesters. They are rioters. It seems there
are a lot of people in the mainstream media who don't seem to understand
the difference. ABC News actually had the gall to report that Trump was
threatening to use the military against protesters. He did no such thing.
He threatened to use the military against rioters and looters as he
should.

Getting back to the actions of the cops, I have to wonder how long they
intended to keep Floyd pinned down with a knee on his throat. What were
they waiting for. If Chauvin takes the stand in his own defense, I hope
the prosecutor asks him that question.

[jecorb...@yahoo.com]

The medical examiner ruled it to be a homicide. His report indicated the
knee on the neck had cut off blood flow to the brain. This triggered the
cardiac arrest that resulted in Floyd's death.

> > But the thing that so obviously CAUSED the "cardiopulmonary arrest" was
> > the murderous cop's actions. We see it on the video
>
> And the the thing is if Floyd hadn`t committed a crime he would have had
> no interaction with police.

We do not know if Floyd committed a crime and even if he did, that in no
way justifies the cops killing him. This is a red herring argument. It is
an attempt to blame the victim.

> And the thing is if Floyd had taken better
> care of his health he might have survived this arrest. And the thing is
> that people like Floyd going around high on drugs doing whatever they like
> is a bigger societal problem than the actions of this cop.
>

No it isn't. Rogue cops pose a far greater threat to society.

> There are a lot of "things".
>
>
> > --- George is both
> > ALIVE and then DEAD while under the knee of the murdering police officer.
>
> Yes, he was alive when his heart was working and he was dead when it
> stopped.
>
> > The math's pretty easy to do here. Why can't you perform it in this case,
> > Bud?
>
> "guy died, cops fault" is too simplistic for my tastes.
>

In this case it is pretty simple. As simple as Oswald shot Kennedy.

>
> > >
> > > Autopsy mentions "fentanyl intoxication", which is an opioid, and recent
> > > methamphetamine use (that`s what you want to do when you have a bad
> > > heart).
> > >
> >
> > Sounds like you're looking for an excuse to exonerate a murderer.
>
> I love this. *Nothing* this guy does matters, nothing does harm to the
> Narrative, none of Floyd`s actions matter that led up to this, only the
> cop`s actions can be looked at.

None of Floyd's action were justification for what the cops did to him so
yet none of that matters. The cop has been charged with murder solely for
what he did, not anything Floyd did. Had Floyd done something that
justified the use of deadly force, that would be relevant but that didn't
happen. He did nothing that even came close to rising to that level.

> The same as the Arbery case, whether he is
> shown to be up to no good, shown to have a history of being up to no good
> in that neighborhood, shown to attack Travis McMichaels, nothing does harm
> to The Narrative of "innocent jogger slain by vigilantes.
>

It is still not clear in that case what transpired, at least not based on
what has been released to the public. That is not the case in the Floyd
killing. We have seen that from start to finish. There is ambiguity that
what the cops did was despicable.

On the way home just before noon today I was listening to Glenn Beck on
the radio and he was interviewing the Polk County, Florida sheriff whose
presser yesterday went viral after he urged the citizens of his county to
arm themselves to protect against rioters whom his intelligence reports
were saying that they might take their lawlessness to the suburbs. He
urged people to blow them away if the rioters attacked their homes. I
don't think anyone would mistake him for a bleeding heart liberal. Even he
said during his interview that Chauvin's actions were reprehensible and if
it had happened in his county, he would have had Chauvin locked up that
same night.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/jun/1/grady-judd-polk-county-sheriff-warns-rioters-well-/

> > That's
> > what JFK conspiracy theorists are supposed to do---not intelligent "LNers"
> > from Philadelphia.
>
> I`d say you are the displaying the traits of a conspiracy theorist when
> you stick to The Narrative despite the facts, or want to look narrowly at
> only some facts.
>
> > > >Where in the world did you get that info? Is it hard info
> > > > or just a wild guess?
> > >
> > > How did I know it would be a heart attack before the autopsy was
> > > released? I suspect I have a better understanding of the world than you
> > > do, you seem invested in The Narrative.
> > >
> >
> > I don't need "The Narrative" here at all. I've got eyes. And I've seen the
> > full 9-minute video showing the murder of Mr. Floyd.
>
> Which you *thought* showed the cop choking Floyd to death. But despite
> being wrong about this, you are still somehow right.
>

Neither your or my interpretation of the video would be considered
evidence in this case. The expert opinion of the Hennepin County medical
examiner is that this was a homicide brought on by Chauvin's action of
keeping his knee on Floyd's throat for nine minutes.

> > (I hope you're not going to start crying "Fake Video!". That stunt, too,
> > should be reserved for JFK CTers.)
>
> Things are not always how they look. The video doesn`t capture Floyd`s
> heart failing.
>

That's why we have medical examiners. He said it was a homicide.

> > > How can restraint by police be a cause of death when restraining
> > > criminals is their job?
> >
> > Your question is a really stupid one. Is it the cops' job to keep suspects
> > restrained for 9 consecutive minutes while the victim, who was not
> > resisting at all during that nine minutes, begs for air?
>
> If you are going to use "restraint" as a cause of death you have to be
> able to explain how cops can arrest people without restraining them.

Floyd was restrained. He was in handcuffs.

> Because people can have heart attacks during an arrest *regardless* of how
> you arrest them, and there is no reason to believe that Floyd would have
> survived this attack *regardless* of how they handled it. They aren`t
> paramedics.
>
> > Your comments in this discussion are embarrassing and ridiculous, Bud.
>
> Try reading them for comprehension.

Your comments fly in the face of the medical examiner's report.

[Bud]

Accepted.

And you triggered me into saying something I would not have ordinarily
said...

"Try reading them for comprehension."

And for that I apologize.

[Bud]

On Tuesday, June 2, 2020 at 10:55:14 AM UTC-4, John McAdams wrote:
> On 2 Jun 2020 10:02:24 -0400, David Von Pein <davev...@aol.com>
> wrote:
>
> >I went a little overboard when I said this to Bud earlier:
> >
> >"Your comments in this discussion are embarrassing and ridiculous."
> >
> >I apologize.
>
> This must be a first in the history of the Internet.
>
> An apology for a post that was a bit overheated, but not nearly so
> terrible as routine stuff on social media.
>
> I passed the "comments' post since it addressed Bud's arguments, but
> not Bud as a person.

Hell, I can take anything anyone cares to dish out, I`m a veteran of the
Nuthouse. Not only have I been accused of having sex with farm animals,
I`ve been accused of having sex with under aged farm animals.

[jecorb...@yahoo.com]

On Tuesday, June 2, 2020 at 4:51:02 PM UTC-4, jecorb...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> It is still not clear in that case what transpired, at least not based on
> what has been released to the public. That is not the case in the Floyd
> killing. We have seen that from start to finish. There is ambiguity that
> what the cops did was despicable.
>

I should have proof read this. It should read, "There is NO ambiguity that
what the cops did was despicable.".

[David Von Pein]

On Tuesday, June 2, 2020 at 11:12:47 AM UTC-4, Bud wrote:

BUD SAID:

The fact is that you, and almost everyone else *assumed* that the cop's
knee was cutting off oxygen to Floyd, resulting in his death. But even
though that was not true, nobody seems to be readjusting their evaluation

of the situation, they are stick[ing] to their first impressions despite
the facts.


DAVID VON PEIN SAYS:

Pot is colliding head-on with Kettle here. YOU, Bud, are the one ignoring
the "facts". The main fact being this:

BOTH autopsies concluded that Floyd's death was a MURDER ("homicide").

And yet you still want to claim otherwise, don't you? Why?

Prior to writing your post that I'm responding to now, you surely *had* to
know that *both* the Baden autopsy AND the Minneapolis autopsy had
utilized that word---"HOMICIDE"---in their respective autopsy
reports/statements on June 1st, 2020....right?

And yet you're still going to insist that the cop(s) were somehow not to
blame?? Bizarre stubbornness there, Bud. Do you really think YOU know more
than the doctors who performed BOTH autopsies and who concluded that
George Floyd was, indeed, murdered?

[Bud]

Doesn`t mean much. If he would have dropped dead as soon as they touched
him it would still be ruled a homicide.

> His report indicated the
> knee on the neck had cut off blood flow to the brain. This triggered the
> cardiac arrest that resulted in Floyd's death.

Then why is Floyd saying "I can`t breathe" before he ever went to the
ground? Shortness of breath is a sign of a heart attack.

> > > But the thing that so obviously CAUSED the "cardiopulmonary arrest" was
> > > the murderous cop's actions. We see it on the video
> >
> > And the the thing is if Floyd hadn`t committed a crime he would have had
> > no interaction with police.
>
> We do not know if Floyd committed a crime and even if he did, that in no
> way justifies the cops killing him.

We don`t know the cops committed a crime. if Floyd can get the benefit
of the doubt, so can the cops.

You have heard the 911 call, right?

https://www.tmz.com/2020/05/28/george-floyd-911-caller-cup-foods-counterfeit-bills-drunk/

The person who worked at the store tried to get Floyd to give back the
merchandise (cigarettes). Apparently that person explained to Floyd the
bill was phony.

> This is a red herring argument. It is
> an attempt to blame the victim.

It is an attempt to understand the event. There is a lot of "this is all
I need to know" coming from the Floyd camp.

And I get it, all the people I talk to (mostly white) were appalled by
that video. But all that good work getting blacks and whites finally on
the same page is being wasted, destroyed actually. And since I see so much
dishonesty in creating this narrative I think it is best that I throw my
weight against it, and speak the truth as I see it.

> > And the thing is if Floyd had taken better
> > care of his health he might have survived this arrest. And the thing is
> > that people like Floyd going around high on drugs doing whatever they like
> > is a bigger societal problem than the actions of this cop.
> >
>
> No it isn't. Rogue cops pose a far greater threat to society.

I disagree. A few people making questionable choices under stressful
situations is not that big a deal, and I say that knowing that a fair
number of those victims are white. Idiots driving around under the
influence, doing whatever they like, breaking laws, whatever, are the
bigger threat to society, they make the world a shitty place.

I posted a link to the woman who was high that ran into another car,
killing a 3 year old kid, did you see it? Stupid shit like this happens
*all* the time, every day, you just don`t hear much about it, it isn`t
newsworthy.

Heres another one, 31 year old store owner killed...

https://www.inquirer.com/news/philadelphia/south-philly-store-shooting-porter-street-jd-hoyu-20200109.html

Turned out the killer was an 18 year old black kid who had already
committed a previous murder. What do you think is the higher number,
storeowners killed by blacks, or blacks killed by police? Crime like this
is so commonplace it is banal. No riots, a headline and that is all, on to
the next. Criminality like this is a much more a societal problem, and
Floyd was contributing to this overall shitty atmosphere the cops have to
deal with. What if Floyd hit a kid while high on drugs, what then? One
headline, no protests, no riots. And Floyd did five years for the armed
robbery of some woman. Does she still get cold sweats over the incident,
is she still looking over her shoulder to this day? I think I read that it
cost $50,000 a years to keep a prisoner, so Floyd cost the taxpayers a
quarter of a million, aside from court cost (surely the taxpayers provided
him with a lawyer), police costs, not counting whatever aid or benefits he
gets from the government. I`d say that hundreds of thousands of George
Floyds running around have a much more negative impact on society than a
few "rogue cops". The problem is nobody speaks the truth about these
things, the Narratives are heavily one sided, Floyd is not allowed to be
looked at at all, it is "blaming the victim" as you called it. "How does
that matter?" is the refrain when he is scrutinized, it has been decided
by the powers that be that the cop`s knee on Floyd is the only thing that
matters.

> > There are a lot of "things".
> >
> >
> > > --- George is both
> > > ALIVE and then DEAD while under the knee of the murdering police officer.
> >
> > Yes, he was alive when his heart was working and he was dead when it
> > stopped.
> >
> > > The math's pretty easy to do here. Why can't you perform it in this case,
> > > Bud?
> >
> > "guy died, cops fault" is too simplistic for my tastes.
> >
>
> In this case it is pretty simple. As simple as Oswald shot Kennedy.

Not so simple.

One autopsy saying asphyxiation, another saying no asphyxiation. I
suspect that since Baden went out on a limb and said that the Floyd
autopsy he performed showed no heart disease, that any sign of heart
disease in Floyd`s medical history will cut that limb off.

And I think the evidence will show that Floyd was saying "I can`t
breathe" before he went to the ground, before the cops were on him. How
can that be explained? Not by cops choking him. I can explain it, his
heart attack had already started.

> > > > Autopsy mentions "fentanyl intoxication", which is an opioid, and recent
> > > > methamphetamine use (that`s what you want to do when you have a bad
> > > > heart).
> > > >
> > >
> > > Sounds like you're looking for an excuse to exonerate a murderer.
> >
> > I love this. *Nothing* this guy does matters, nothing does harm to the
> > Narrative, none of Floyd`s actions matter that led up to this, only the
> > cop`s actions can be looked at.
>
> None of Floyd's action were justification for what the cops did to him so
> yet none of that matters.

Nothing the cops did is justification for Floyd`s actions. We are each
of us responsible for our own actions.

> The cop has been charged with murder solely for
> what he did, not anything Floyd did. Had Floyd done something that
> justified the use of deadly force, that would be relevant but that didn't
> happen. He did nothing that even came close to rising to that level.

You assume the cop`s intent was to kill.

> > The same as the Arbery case, whether he is
> > shown to be up to no good, shown to have a history of being up to no good
> > in that neighborhood, shown to attack Travis McMichaels, nothing does harm
> > to The Narrative of "innocent jogger slain by vigilantes.
> >
>
> It is still not clear in that case what transpired, at least not based on
> what has been released to the public. That is not the case in the Floyd
> killing. We have seen that from start to finish. There is ambiguity that
> what the cops did was despicable.

I`d say the actions of the one cop was very questionable. I haven`t
heard what he has to say yet, though. I haven`t seen footage from any cop
cams of the arresting officers, that might give some insight not yet
available.

> On the way home just before noon today I was listening to Glenn Beck on
> the radio and he was interviewing the Polk County, Florida sheriff whose
> presser yesterday went viral after he urged the citizens of his county to
> arm themselves to protect against rioters whom his intelligence reports
> were saying that they might take their lawlessness to the suburbs. He
> urged people to blow them away if the rioters attacked their homes.

I`ve seen rioters say that very thing.

> I
> don't think anyone would mistake him for a bleeding heart liberal. Even he
> said during his interview that Chauvin's actions were reprehensible and if
> it had happened in his county, he would have had Chauvin locked up that
> same night.
>
> https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/jun/1/grady-judd-polk-county-sheriff-warns-rioters-well-/

Everyone I talked to thinks it was reprehensible. I`m merely providing
context that many wish to ignore. I`m pretty sure you misunderstand me, if
I was there, and I felt that what the cop was doing was ending Floyd`s
life, I think I would have tried to intervene, tried to knock him off, at
risk to myself. I doubt you`ll be able to reconcile that with some of the
positions I`ve taken, but I`m looking at things from a variety of angles
to strike some sort of balance, the scales are tipped way too far towards
false narratives. It is going to get to the point where a narrative will
be constructed in this case like this that says where "Gentile giant
accidentally buys groceries with counterfeit money when he is set upon and
choked to death by responding officers", and anyone who challenges this
narrative will be said to be engaging in hate speech.

> > > That's
> > > what JFK conspiracy theorists are supposed to do---not intelligent "LNers"
> > > from Philadelphia.
> >
> > I`d say you are the displaying the traits of a conspiracy theorist when
> > you stick to The Narrative despite the facts, or want to look narrowly at
> > only some facts.
> >
> > > > >Where in the world did you get that info? Is it hard info
> > > > > or just a wild guess?
> > > >
> > > > How did I know it would be a heart attack before the autopsy was
> > > > released? I suspect I have a better understanding of the world than you
> > > > do, you seem invested in The Narrative.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I don't need "The Narrative" here at all. I've got eyes. And I've seen the
> > > full 9-minute video showing the murder of Mr. Floyd.
> >
> > Which you *thought* showed the cop choking Floyd to death. But despite
> > being wrong about this, you are still somehow right.
> >
>
> Neither your or my interpretation of the video would be considered
> evidence in this case. The expert opinion of the Hennepin County medical
> examiner is that this was a homicide brought on by Chauvin's action of
> keeping his knee on Floyd's throat for nine minutes.

I`m seeing "cardiopulmonary arrest".

> > > (I hope you're not going to start crying "Fake Video!". That stunt, too,
> > > should be reserved for JFK CTers.)
> >
> > Things are not always how they look. The video doesn`t capture Floyd`s
> > heart failing.
> >
>
> That's why we have medical examiners. He said it was a homicide.

I think you misunderstand how that is used in this context. the ME`s
report say about the term "homicide" "is not a legal determination of
culpability or intent."

> > > > How can restraint by police be a cause of death when restraining
> > > > criminals is their job?
> > >
> > > Your question is a really stupid one. Is it the cops' job to keep suspects
> > > restrained for 9 consecutive minutes while the victim, who was not
> > > resisting at all during that nine minutes, begs for air?
> >
> > If you are going to use "restraint" as a cause of death you have to be
> > able to explain how cops can arrest people without restraining them.
>
> Floyd was restrained. He was in handcuffs.

So the restraining didn`t kill him.

> > Because people can have heart attacks during an arrest *regardless* of how
> > you arrest them, and there is no reason to believe that Floyd would have
> > survived this attack *regardless* of how they handled it. They aren`t
> > paramedics.
> >
> > > Your comments in this discussion are embarrassing and ridiculous, Bud.
> >
> > Try reading them for comprehension.
>
> Your comments fly in the face of the medical examiner's report.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/george-floyd-autopsies-death-homicide-details/

"Dr. Allecia Wilson, one of the pathologists who conducted the
independent autopsy, said Monday afternoon that Floyd died as a result of
mechanical asphyxiation."

I suppose she is a member of Baden`s team.

But the "Hennepin County Medical Examiner's office said Floyd died of
"cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint
and neck compression."

And...

"...revealed no physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic
asphyxia or strangulation.

So Baden`s autopsy has no heart attack, asphyxiation, and the Medical
examiner says heart attack, no asphyxiation.

I see Baden having problems in court, especially if any history of heart
disease in Floyd`s medical history is found. Also problematic will be if
Floyd can be shown to be claiming not to be able to breathe before the
cops are on top of him.

[JUDGE HOLDEN]

What the hell is going on here? Everyone is apologizing?

[JUDGE HOLDEN]

At least you haven't been accused of having sex with Pretty Boy George
Floyd. He is hung like a horse.

[Bud]

I read that in. I often omit key words that make what I write into the
exact opposite of the concept I was trying to express.

[Bud]

Murder and homicide are two distinctly different concepts.

> And yet you still want to claim otherwise, don't you? Why?

It seems the more I write the less people understand my position.

> Prior to writing your post that I'm responding to now, you surely *had* to
> know that *both* the Baden autopsy AND the Minneapolis autopsy had
> utilized that word---"HOMICIDE"---in their respective autopsy
> reports/statements on June 1st, 2020....right?

We both know that. But only one of us understands what the word means.

> And yet you're still going to insist that the cop(s) were somehow not to
> blame??

I never said they were blameless.

>Bizarre stubbornness there, Bud. Do you really think YOU know more
> than the doctors who performed BOTH autopsies and who concluded that
> George Floyd was, indeed, murdered?

One ruled it death by heart attack, the other finds no sign of heart
problems. One found death by asphyxiation, the other finds no sign of
asphyxiation.

Consider this, shortness of breath is the leading sign of a heart
attack. Floyd is saying he can`t breath long before the cops were on top
of him on the ground. If it was a heart attack, the heart attack started
before the egregious actions of the cops.

[jecorb...@yahoo.com]

Doubtful. As in "No way, Jose.".

> > His report indicated the
> > knee on the neck had cut off blood flow to the brain. This triggered the
> > cardiac arrest that resulted in Floyd's death.
>
> Then why is Floyd saying "I can`t breathe" before he ever went to the
> ground? Shortness of breath is a sign of a heart attack.
>

Hadn't read that but I'll take your word for it. In the accounts I read
Floyd was claustrophobic and that was why he resisted being put in the
police car. In any case, that is all the more reason for Chauvin not to
have put his knee on Floyd's throat for nearly 9 minutes. For the sake of
argument, let's say Floyd was having a heart attack before Chauvin knelt
on his neck. Kneeling on somebody's neck who is experiencing a medical
emergency is the height of negligence which would make the homicide
criminal. The best you could hope for with that argument is to say Chauvin
was guilty of manslaughter as opposed to murder 3. Either way, he deserves
serious jail time.

> > > > But the thing that so obviously CAUSED the "cardiopulmonary arrest" was
> > > > the murderous cop's actions. We see it on the video
> > >
> > > And the the thing is if Floyd hadn`t committed a crime he would have had
> > > no interaction with police.
> >
> > We do not know if Floyd committed a crime and even if he did, that in no
> > way justifies the cops killing him.
>
> We don`t know the cops committed a crime. if Floyd can get the benefit
> of the doubt, so can the cops.
>

I don't see any doubt that Chauvin committed a crime. The only doubt at
this point is what level of a crime did he commit.

> You have heard the 911 call, right?
>
> https://www.tmz.com/2020/05/28/george-floyd-911-caller-cup-foods-counterfeit-bills-drunk/
>
> The person who worked at the store tried to get Floyd to give back the
> merchandise (cigarettes). Apparently that person explained to Floyd the
> bill was phony.
>

Maybe Floyd didn't believe her. In any case, even if Floyd did knowingly
attempt to defraud the story with the funny money, that has no bearing on
whether Chauvin committed a crime.

> > This is a red herring argument. It is
> > an attempt to blame the victim.
>
> It is an attempt to understand the event. There is a lot of "this is all
> I need to know" coming from the Floyd camp.
>

All we need to know is if Chauvin committed a crime with his action of
kneeling on Floyd's neck for nearly nine minutes, almost three minutes
after being told Floyd had no pulse.

> And I get it, all the people I talk to (mostly white) were appalled by
> that video. But all that good work getting blacks and whites finally on
> the same page is being wasted, destroyed actually. And since I see so much
> dishonesty in creating this narrative I think it is best that I throw my
> weight against it, and speak the truth as I see it.
>

You seem to see the truth much better when you are discussing the JFK
assassination than when you are discussing this situation.

> > > And the thing is if Floyd had taken better
> > > care of his health he might have survived this arrest. And the thing is
> > > that people like Floyd going around high on drugs doing whatever they like
> > > is a bigger societal problem than the actions of this cop.
> > >
> >
> > No it isn't. Rogue cops pose a far greater threat to society.
>
> I disagree. A few people making questionable choices under stressful
> situations is not that big a deal, and I say that knowing that a fair
> number of those victims are white. Idiots driving around under the
> influence, doing whatever they like, breaking laws, whatever, are the
> bigger threat to society, they make the world a shitty place.
>

Allowing cops to commit atrocities and not holding them accountable is a
recipe for making the world a shitty place.

> I posted a link to the woman who was high that ran into another car,
> killing a 3 year old kid, did you see it? Stupid shit like this happens
> *all* the time, every day, you just don`t hear much about it, it isn`t
> newsworthy.
>
> Heres another one, 31 year old store owner killed...
>
> https://www.inquirer.com/news/philadelphia/south-philly-store-shooting-porter-street-jd-hoyu-20200109.html
>
> Turned out the killer was an 18 year old black kid who had already
> committed a previous murder. What do you think is the higher number,
> storeowners killed by blacks, or blacks killed by police?

If you want to play the numbers game, which do you think is the higher
number, cops killed by citizens or citizens killed by cops. That's not to
say that killings by cops aren't often justified but too often they are
not. The proliferation of video cameras in recent years is providing us
evidence that unjustified killings by cops happen more frequently than we
would like to believe. Had it not been for bystanders taking the video of
Chauvin kneeling on Floyd's neck, Chauvin would likely still be on the
Minneapolis police force. The South Carolina cop who is now serving 20
years on a civil rights violation for shooting an unarmed fleeing suspect
in the back would likely still be a cop if a bystander had not recorded
that crime.

> Crime like this
> is so commonplace it is banal. No riots, a headline and that is all, on to
> the next. Criminality like this is a much more a societal problem, and
> Floyd was contributing to this overall shitty atmosphere the cops have to
> deal with. What if Floyd hit a kid while high on drugs, what then?

Then Floyd would be the one facing a reckless homicide charge.

> One
> headline, no protests, no riots. And Floyd did five years for the armed
> robbery of some woman. Does she still get cold sweats over the incident,
> is she still looking over her shoulder to this day? I think I read that it
> cost $50,000 a years to keep a prisoner, so Floyd cost the taxpayers a
> quarter of a million, aside from court cost (surely the taxpayers provided
> him with a lawyer), police costs, not counting whatever aid or benefits he
> gets from the government. I`d say that hundreds of thousands of George
> Floyds running around have a much more negative impact on society than a
> few "rogue cops". The problem is nobody speaks the truth about these
> things, the Narratives are heavily one sided, Floyd is not allowed to be
> looked at at all, it is "blaming the victim" as you called it. "How does
> that matter?" is the refrain when he is scrutinized, it has been decided
> by the powers that be that the cop`s knee on Floyd is the only thing that
> matters.
>

People who commit crimes should be held accountable, even if they have
badges pinned to their shirts.

> > > There are a lot of "things".
> > >
> > >
> > > > --- George is both
> > > > ALIVE and then DEAD while under the knee of the murdering police officer.
> > >
> > > Yes, he was alive when his heart was working and he was dead when it
> > > stopped.
> > >
> > > > The math's pretty easy to do here. Why can't you perform it in this case,
> > > > Bud?
> > >
> > > "guy died, cops fault" is too simplistic for my tastes.
> > >
> >
> > In this case it is pretty simple. As simple as Oswald shot Kennedy.
>
> Not so simple.
>
> One autopsy saying asphyxiation, another saying no asphyxiation. I
> suspect that since Baden went out on a limb and said that the Floyd
> autopsy he performed showed no heart disease, that any sign of heart
> disease in Floyd`s medical history will cut that limb off.
>
> And I think the evidence will show that Floyd was saying "I can`t
> breathe" before he went to the ground, before the cops were on him. How
> can that be explained? Not by cops choking him. I can explain it, his
> heart attack had already started.
>

Do you think it is a good idea to kneel on the neck of someone who is
having a heart attack and is telling you he can't breathe? It seems to me
if that is the case, that makes Chauvin's actions even more reprehensible,
not less.

> > > > > Autopsy mentions "fentanyl intoxication", which is an opioid, and recent
> > > > > methamphetamine use (that`s what you want to do when you have a bad
> > > > > heart).
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Sounds like you're looking for an excuse to exonerate a murderer.
> > >
> > > I love this. *Nothing* this guy does matters, nothing does harm to the
> > > Narrative, none of Floyd`s actions matter that led up to this, only the
> > > cop`s actions can be looked at.
> >
> > None of Floyd's action were justification for what the cops did to him so
> > yet none of that matters.
>
> Nothing the cops did is justification for Floyd`s actions. We are each
> of us responsible for our own actions.

Nobody is trying to justify Floyd's actions. The question is if there is
any justification for the actions of the arresting officers. I don't see
any.

>
> > The cop has been charged with murder solely for
> > what he did, not anything Floyd did. Had Floyd done something that
> > justified the use of deadly force, that would be relevant but that didn't
> > happen. He did nothing that even came close to rising to that level.
>
> You assume the cop`s intent was to kill.
>

No I don't and neither murder 3 nor manslaughter requires that it be
proven that Chauvin intended to kill Floyd. Those charges only require
that it be established that Chauvin was reckless in his behavior. If it
could be established that Chauvin intended to kill Floyd, that would up
the charge to murder 2.

>
> > > The same as the Arbery case, whether he is
> > > shown to be up to no good, shown to have a history of being up to no good
> > > in that neighborhood, shown to attack Travis McMichaels, nothing does harm
> > > to The Narrative of "innocent jogger slain by vigilantes.
> > >
> >
> > It is still not clear in that case what transpired, at least not based on
> > what has been released to the public. That is not the case in the Floyd
> > killing. We have seen that from start to finish. There is ambiguity that
> > what the cops did was despicable.
>
> I`d say the actions of the one cop was very questionable. I haven`t
> heard what he has to say yet, though. I haven`t seen footage from any cop
> cams of the arresting officers, that might give some insight not yet
> available.
>

The prosecutor had those cameras and he was satisfied Chauvin had
committed a serious crime. Chauvin will have the opportunity to tell his
side of the case but I doubt his lawyers will let him do so in court. That
would open him up to a whole lot of cross examination. In most cases,
lawyers do not want to expose their clients to that.

At this point, the only question is whether Chauvin's actions were
reckless or negligent and that should determine which level of crime he is
convicted for. We might see a plea deal for the lesser charge if the
prosecutor is not confident he can make the more serious charge stick. I
can't imagine there would be a plea deal that would allow Chauvin off with
no jail time. I think he can expect a similar sentence to what Jason Van
Dyke go for murdering Laquan McDonald. Van Dyke was convicted of murder 2
but sentencing guidelines vary from state to state. There's no way
Minnesota is going to let Chauvin off with a slap on the wrist.

> > > > That's
> > > > what JFK conspiracy theorists are supposed to do---not intelligent "LNers"
> > > > from Philadelphia.
> > >
> > > I`d say you are the displaying the traits of a conspiracy theorist when
> > > you stick to The Narrative despite the facts, or want to look narrowly at
> > > only some facts.
> > >
> > > > > >Where in the world did you get that info? Is it hard info
> > > > > > or just a wild guess?
> > > > >
> > > > > How did I know it would be a heart attack before the autopsy was
> > > > > released? I suspect I have a better understanding of the world than you
> > > > > do, you seem invested in The Narrative.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > I don't need "The Narrative" here at all. I've got eyes. And I've seen the
> > > > full 9-minute video showing the murder of Mr. Floyd.
> > >
> > > Which you *thought* showed the cop choking Floyd to death. But despite
> > > being wrong about this, you are still somehow right.
> > >
> >
> > Neither your or my interpretation of the video would be considered
> > evidence in this case. The expert opinion of the Hennepin County medical
> > examiner is that this was a homicide brought on by Chauvin's action of
> > keeping his knee on Floyd's throat for nine minutes.
>
> I`m seeing "cardiopulmonary arrest".
>

The question is what brought that on. The medical examiner indicated
Chauvin's actions of kneeling on Floyd's neck for almost nine minutes was
the catalyst.

>
> > > > (I hope you're not going to start crying "Fake Video!". That stunt, too,
> > > > should be reserved for JFK CTers.)
> > >
> > > Things are not always how they look. The video doesn`t capture Floyd`s
> > > heart failing.
> > >
> >
> > That's why we have medical examiners. He said it was a homicide.
>
> I think you misunderstand how that is used in this context. the ME`s
> report say about the term "homicide" "is not a legal determination of
> culpability or intent."
>

I learned about the legal definition of homicide when I took my concealed
carry class. I learned that if I kill someone in self defense, I have
still committed a homicide. I would have the burden of establishing it was
a justifiable homicide and not a crime. Homicides can be intentional,
justifiable, reckless, negligent or accidental. Not all are crimes and the
ones that are vary greatly in the seriousness of the offense.

> > > > > How can restraint by police be a cause of death when restraining
> > > > > criminals is their job?
> > > >
> > > > Your question is a really stupid one. Is it the cops' job to keep suspects
> > > > restrained for 9 consecutive minutes while the victim, who was not
> > > > resisting at all during that nine minutes, begs for air?
> > >
> > > If you are going to use "restraint" as a cause of death you have to be
> > > able to explain how cops can arrest people without restraining them.
> >
> > Floyd was restrained. He was in handcuffs.
>
> So the restraining didn`t kill him.
>

Not the handcuffing part. The kneeling on the neck is another matter.

>
> > > Because people can have heart attacks during an arrest *regardless* of how
> > > you arrest them, and there is no reason to believe that Floyd would have
> > > survived this attack *regardless* of how they handled it. They aren`t
> > > paramedics.
> > >
> > > > Your comments in this discussion are embarrassing and ridiculous, Bud.
> > >
> > > Try reading them for comprehension.
> >
> > Your comments fly in the face of the medical examiner's report.
>
> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/george-floyd-autopsies-death-homicide-details/
>
> "Dr. Allecia Wilson, one of the pathologists who conducted the
> independent autopsy, said Monday afternoon that Floyd died as a result of
> mechanical asphyxiation."
>
> I suppose she is a member of Baden`s team.
>
> But the "Hennepin County Medical Examiner's office said Floyd died of
> "cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint
> and neck compression."
>
> And...
>
> "...revealed no physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic
> asphyxia or strangulation.
>
> So Baden`s autopsy has no heart attack, asphyxiation, and the Medical
> examiner says heart attack, no asphyxiation.
>
> I see Baden having problems in court, especially if any history of heart
> disease in Floyd`s medical history is found. Also problematic will be if
> Floyd can be shown to be claiming not to be able to breathe before the
> cops are on top of him.

Baden likely was called in by the family as ammunition for a civil suit. I
don't see the state calling him in the criminal prosecution and I don't
think he would help the defense's case either. What the defense needs is a
qualified medical examiner who would offer the same opinions that you are.
They'll probably dig one up assuming the choose not to reach a plea
deal.

[jecorb...@yahoo.com]

Don't we all. I think sometimes our fingers disconnect from our brains and
go on autopilot. Sometimes I'll change my mind mid-sentence how I want to
phrase something and don't completely delete what I originally started.
The result is usually gibberish. What I find particularly irritating is
when I am using a word that is a homonym of another, more often then
(k)not, I'll type the wrong one even though I know better and would easily
pick the right one if I stopped to think about it. The most baffling one
of all is when I mix "when" and "one". I don't know how that happens but
it does quite often.

Getting back to another point we discussed, I was surprised that my online
dictionary gave a very narrow definition of homicide:

homicide
[ˈhäməˌsīd]

NOUN
NORTH AMERICAN
the deliberate and unlawful killing of one person by another; murder.

This is quite a bit different than the legal definition of what
constitutes a homicide. I checked the Meriam-Webster website and it gave a
much broader definition of the term that is more close to the legal
definition:

homicide noun

ho·​mi·​cide | \ ˈhä-mə-ˌsīd


, ˈhō-


\
Definition of homicide

1: a person who kills another
2: a killing of one human being by another

[Bud]

I think you and DVP need to cure your respective ignorance about what
constitutes "homicide".

> > > His report indicated the
> > > knee on the neck had cut off blood flow to the brain. This triggered the
> > > cardiac arrest that resulted in Floyd's death.
> >
> > Then why is Floyd saying "I can`t breathe" before he ever went to the
> > ground? Shortness of breath is a sign of a heart attack.
> >
>
> Hadn't read that but I'll take your word for it.

You don`t have to, it is in the complaint against Chauvin...

"The officers made several attempts to get Mr. Floyd in the backseat of
squad 320 from the driver’s side. Mr. Floyd did not voluntarily
get in the car and struggled with the officers by intentionally falling
down, saying he was not going in the car, and refusing to stand still. Mr.
Floyd is over six feet tall and weighs more than 200 pounds. While
standing outside the car, Mr. Floyd began saying and repeating that he
could not breathe. The defendant went to the passenger side and tried to
get Mr. Floyd into the car from that side and Lane and Kueng assisted. The
defendant pulled Mr. Floyd out of the passenger side of the squad car at
8:19:38 p.m. and Mr. Floyd went to the ground face down and still
handcuffed."

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/6933246/Derek-Chauvin-Complaint.pdf

> In the accounts I read
> Floyd was claustrophobic

He did five years in prison.

>and that was why he resisted being put in the
> police car.

They pulled him *out* of a car.

> In any case, that is all the more reason for Chauvin not to
> have put his knee on Floyd's throat for nearly 9 minutes.

How come Floyd couldn`t breath when there was no knee on his neck?

> For the sake of
> argument, let's say Floyd was having a heart attack before Chauvin knelt
> on his neck. Kneeling on somebody's neck who is experiencing a medical
> emergency is the height of negligence which would make the homicide
> criminal.

If Floyd died of a heart attack, and the heart attack started before the
knee was on his neck then the knee of the neck wasn`t the cause of the
heart attack.

> The best you could hope for with that argument is to say Chauvin
> was guilty of manslaughter as opposed to murder 3. Either way, he deserves
> serious jail time.

> > > > > But the thing that so obviously CAUSED the "cardiopulmonary arrest" was
> > > > > the murderous cop's actions. We see it on the video
> > > >
> > > > And the the thing is if Floyd hadn`t committed a crime he would have had
> > > > no interaction with police.
> > >
> > > We do not know if Floyd committed a crime and even if he did, that in no
> > > way justifies the cops killing him.
> >
> > We don`t know the cops committed a crime. if Floyd can get the benefit
> > of the doubt, so can the cops.
> >
>
> I don't see any doubt that Chauvin committed a crime. The only doubt at
> this point is what level of a crime did he commit.
>
> > You have heard the 911 call, right?
> >
> > https://www.tmz.com/2020/05/28/george-floyd-911-caller-cup-foods-counterfeit-bills-drunk/
> >
> > The person who worked at the store tried to get Floyd to give back the
> > merchandise (cigarettes). Apparently that person explained to Floyd the
> > bill was phony.
> >
>
> Maybe Floyd didn't believe her. In any case, even if Floyd did knowingly
> attempt to defraud the story with the funny money,

Ok, if it doesn`t matter, let us just believe that Floyd was driving
around heavily under the influence of drugs and alcohol (notice you
haven`t heard his blood alcohol level?), risking running down innocent
children with his vehicle while going from store to store defrauding them
with fake currency. Lets believe *that* narrative, since it doesn`t matter
anyway.

> that has no bearing on
> whether Chauvin committed a crime.

The chance of having interactions with police increases dramatically
when you commit crime. If you can`t stand the stress of being put in a
patrol car then perhaps you shouldn`t do things that cause cops to put you
in a patrol car.

> > > This is a red herring argument. It is
> > > an attempt to blame the victim.
> >
> > It is an attempt to understand the event. There is a lot of "this is all
> > I need to know" coming from the Floyd camp.
> >
>
> All we need to know is if Chauvin committed a crime with his action of
> kneeling on Floyd's neck for nearly nine minutes, almost three minutes
> after being told Floyd had no pulse.

No, that is all you want to focus on, that is not all there is to know.

> > And I get it, all the people I talk to (mostly white) were appalled by
> > that video. But all that good work getting blacks and whites finally on
> > the same page is being wasted, destroyed actually. And since I see so much
> > dishonesty in creating this narrative I think it is best that I throw my
> > weight against it, and speak the truth as I see it.
> >
>
> You seem to see the truth much better when you are discussing the JFK
> assassination than when you are discussing this situation.

Perhaps you should see things my way on this issue also, as I have such
a good track record of being astute.

> > > > And the thing is if Floyd had taken better
> > > > care of his health he might have survived this arrest. And the thing is
> > > > that people like Floyd going around high on drugs doing whatever they like
> > > > is a bigger societal problem than the actions of this cop.
> > > >
> > >
> > > No it isn't. Rogue cops pose a far greater threat to society.
> >
> > I disagree. A few people making questionable choices under stressful
> > situations is not that big a deal, and I say that knowing that a fair
> > number of those victims are white. Idiots driving around under the
> > influence, doing whatever they like, breaking laws, whatever, are the
> > bigger threat to society, they make the world a shitty place.
> >
>
> Allowing cops to commit atrocities and not holding them accountable is a
> recipe for making the world a shitty place.

Do you believe the intent of the cop was to end Floyd`s life?

> > I posted a link to the woman who was high that ran into another car,
> > killing a 3 year old kid, did you see it? Stupid shit like this happens
> > *all* the time, every day, you just don`t hear much about it, it isn`t
> > newsworthy.
> >
> > Heres another one, 31 year old store owner killed...
> >
> > https://www.inquirer.com/news/philadelphia/south-philly-store-shooting-porter-street-jd-hoyu-20200109.html
> >
> > Turned out the killer was an 18 year old black kid who had already
> > committed a previous murder. What do you think is the higher number,
> > storeowners killed by blacks, or blacks killed by police?
>
> If you want to play the numbers game, which do you think is the higher
> number, cops killed by citizens or citizens killed by cops.

I really don`t know. I would hope that with their training they are able
to kill the bad guys a a higher rate than they are killed by them.

> That's not to
> say that killings by cops aren't often justified but too often they are
> not. The proliferation of video cameras in recent years is providing us
> evidence that unjustified killings by cops happen more frequently than we
> would like to believe.

They also show that often blacks react poorly when being arrested and
very often refuse to comply with police instructions. And it will be even
worse now, they know they don`t have to listen to cops at all now, they
have the system cucked. The result will be that cops with cease to stop
blacks for offenses like going through stop signs for fear of getting into
it with the driver, black children will start to be killed by black drunk
drivers with no licences, black mothers will be crying on TV about how the
police not enforcing the law led to their baby being killed, ect. The
societal impact of the lawlessness that will come out of these events will
be felt for decades. White people who never owned guns and never had any
desire to own them are now getting them, they can sense that the cops can
do nothing against the lawlessness. Some of the video seen here will show
you why...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3n5_D59lSjc

You might see neighborhood militias rise up, especially when the
inevitable riots occur when the cops don`t get the amount of time the
violent mobs demand. You saw the beginning of this here in Philly...

https://www.fox29.com/news/philadelphia-officials-condemn-vigilantism-in-fishtown

Rioting is fine, but if you band together to protect property, you are a
"vigilante". They stood out in front of the 26th district to protect it
from rioters, they know they need their cops more than ever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIW3E8YL2dQ

This is my police district.

> Had it not been for bystanders taking the video of
> Chauvin kneeling on Floyd's neck, Chauvin would likely still be on the
> Minneapolis police force.

Certainly it is easier to get the gist of something from film. Would
your understanding of the Kennedy murder be the same without the zfilm?

Trying to reconstruct events from witnesses is difficult, you know that
some of the information you are getting has the potential of being wrong.

>The South Carolina cop who is now serving 20
> years on a civil rights violation for shooting an unarmed fleeing suspect
> in the back would likely still be a cop if a bystander had not recorded
> that crime.

Shame that you need actual evidence to convict a cop.

> > Crime like this
> > is so commonplace it is banal. No riots, a headline and that is all, on to
> > the next. Criminality like this is a much more a societal problem, and
> > Floyd was contributing to this overall shitty atmosphere the cops have to
> > deal with. What if Floyd hit a kid while high on drugs, what then?
>
> Then Floyd would be the one facing a reckless homicide charge.

But not seen as a societal problem at all. No riots, one headline,
nothing to see here, move along. The media will inform you what lives
matter.

> > One
> > headline, no protests, no riots. And Floyd did five years for the armed
> > robbery of some woman. Does she still get cold sweats over the incident,
> > is she still looking over her shoulder to this day? I think I read that it
> > cost $50,000 a years to keep a prisoner, so Floyd cost the taxpayers a
> > quarter of a million, aside from court cost (surely the taxpayers provided
> > him with a lawyer), police costs, not counting whatever aid or benefits he
> > gets from the government. I`d say that hundreds of thousands of George
> > Floyds running around have a much more negative impact on society than a
> > few "rogue cops". The problem is nobody speaks the truth about these
> > things, the Narratives are heavily one sided, Floyd is not allowed to be
> > looked at at all, it is "blaming the victim" as you called it. "How does
> > that matter?" is the refrain when he is scrutinized, it has been decided
> > by the powers that be that the cop`s knee on Floyd is the only thing that
> > matters.
> >
>
> People who commit crimes should be held accountable, even if they have
> badges pinned to their shirts.

And they are.

> > > > There are a lot of "things".
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > --- George is both
> > > > > ALIVE and then DEAD while under the knee of the murdering police officer.
> > > >
> > > > Yes, he was alive when his heart was working and he was dead when it
> > > > stopped.
> > > >
> > > > > The math's pretty easy to do here. Why can't you perform it in this case,
> > > > > Bud?
> > > >
> > > > "guy died, cops fault" is too simplistic for my tastes.
> > > >
> > >
> > > In this case it is pretty simple. As simple as Oswald shot Kennedy.
> >
> > Not so simple.
> >
> > One autopsy saying asphyxiation, another saying no asphyxiation. I
> > suspect that since Baden went out on a limb and said that the Floyd
> > autopsy he performed showed no heart disease, that any sign of heart
> > disease in Floyd`s medical history will cut that limb off.
> >
> > And I think the evidence will show that Floyd was saying "I can`t
> > breathe" before he went to the ground, before the cops were on him. How
> > can that be explained? Not by cops choking him. I can explain it, his
> > heart attack had already started.
> >
>
> Do you think it is a good idea to kneel on the neck of someone who is
> having a heart attack and is telling you he can't breathe?

Don`t you think him saying "I can`t breathe" before the knee was on his
neck might indicate the knee was not the cause of him not being able to
breathe?

The cop isn`t a paramedic, he sees George saying he can`t breathe" while
just standing there, perhaps he sees it as fake complaint to stop from
being arrested, like the claustrophobia claim, so he pays it no mind.

I can see it being different if he is standing there saying "I can`t
breathe", yet still resisting arrest, as compared to if he didn`t start
saying "I can`t breathe" until he was on the ground in the perception of
the cops.

>It seems to me
> if that is the case, that makes Chauvin's actions even more reprehensible,
> not less.
>
> > > > > > Autopsy mentions "fentanyl intoxication", which is an opioid, and recent
> > > > > > methamphetamine use (that`s what you want to do when you have a bad
> > > > > > heart).
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Sounds like you're looking for an excuse to exonerate a murderer.
> > > >
> > > > I love this. *Nothing* this guy does matters, nothing does harm to the
> > > > Narrative, none of Floyd`s actions matter that led up to this, only the
> > > > cop`s actions can be looked at.
> > >
> > > None of Floyd's action were justification for what the cops did to him so
> > > yet none of that matters.
> >
> > Nothing the cops did is justification for Floyd`s actions. We are each
> > of us responsible for our own actions.
>
> Nobody is trying to justify Floyd's actions. The question is if there is
> any justification for the actions of the arresting officers. I don't see
> any.

Why were they called, why were they there? They arrest lawbreakers.

> > > The cop has been charged with murder solely for
> > > what he did, not anything Floyd did. Had Floyd done something that
> > > justified the use of deadly force, that would be relevant but that didn't
> > > happen. He did nothing that even came close to rising to that level.
> >
> > You assume the cop`s intent was to kill.
> >
>
> No I don't and neither murder 3 nor manslaughter requires that it be
> proven that Chauvin intended to kill Floyd. Those charges only require
> that it be established that Chauvin was reckless in his behavior. If it
> could be established that Chauvin intended to kill Floyd, that would up
> the charge to murder 2.
>
> >
> > > > The same as the Arbery case, whether he is
> > > > shown to be up to no good, shown to have a history of being up to no good
> > > > in that neighborhood, shown to attack Travis McMichaels, nothing does harm
> > > > to The Narrative of "innocent jogger slain by vigilantes.
> > > >
> > >
> > > It is still not clear in that case what transpired, at least not based on
> > > what has been released to the public. That is not the case in the Floyd
> > > killing. We have seen that from start to finish. There is ambiguity that
> > > what the cops did was despicable.
> >
> > I`d say the actions of the one cop was very questionable. I haven`t
> > heard what he has to say yet, though. I haven`t seen footage from any cop
> > cams of the arresting officers, that might give some insight not yet
> > available.
> >
>
> The prosecutor had those cameras and he was satisfied Chauvin had
> committed a serious crime.

The prosecutor had *no* choice but to charge Chauvin with murder
regardless of what those cameras show. But I haven`t seen the footage, but
I suspect it will be helpful to the cops to support certain aspects of the
arrest, like Floyd resisting, like Floyd saying "I can`t breathe" early on
in the encounter, before it went to the ground, ect. It might even show
the cops pleading with Floyd to come along peacefully.

> Chauvin will have the opportunity to tell his
> side of the case but I doubt his lawyers will let him do so in court. That
> would open him up to a whole lot of cross examination. In most cases,
> lawyers do not want to expose their clients to that.

He`ll take the stand, the cross examination can`t hurt him because the
video is the most damning evidence and that will be played time and time
again. I`d say he *has* to take the stand to counter that, the jury will
figure he is hiding.

Not that I think it plays out much different either way.

How can that be when he was claiming not to be able to breathe before
those things happened? Did he have a premonition of Chauvin`s knee on his
neck?

> > > > > (I hope you're not going to start crying "Fake Video!". That stunt, too,
> > > > > should be reserved for JFK CTers.)
> > > >
> > > > Things are not always how they look. The video doesn`t capture Floyd`s
> > > > heart failing.
> > > >
> > >
> > > That's why we have medical examiners. He said it was a homicide.
> >
> > I think you misunderstand how that is used in this context. the ME`s
> > report say about the term "homicide" "is not a legal determination of
> > culpability or intent."
> >
>
> I learned about the legal definition of homicide when I took my concealed
> carry class. I learned that if I kill someone in self defense, I have
> still committed a homicide. I would have the burden of establishing it was
> a justifiable homicide and not a crime. Homicides can be intentional,
> justifiable, reckless, negligent or accidental.

Then just finding of "homicide" isn`t in itself damning.

> Not all are crimes and the
> ones that are vary greatly in the seriousness of the offense.
>
> > > > > > How can restraint by police be a cause of death when restraining
> > > > > > criminals is their job?
> > > > >
> > > > > Your question is a really stupid one. Is it the cops' job to keep suspects
> > > > > restrained for 9 consecutive minutes while the victim, who was not
> > > > > resisting at all during that nine minutes, begs for air?
> > > >
> > > > If you are going to use "restraint" as a cause of death you have to be
> > > > able to explain how cops can arrest people without restraining them.
> > >
> > > Floyd was restrained. He was in handcuffs.
> >
> > So the restraining didn`t kill him.
> >
>
> Not the handcuffing part. The kneeling on the neck is another matter.

So it wasn`t the restraining.

That will leave the Medical Examiners report for the criminal trial. The
preliminary report of which found "...revealed no physical findings that
support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation." Gonna be hard
to convict with no asphyxia or strangulation. They have to say the
officers caused the heart attack the ME report said killed him. The
problem with that is the heart attack can be shown to have started before
Chauvin`s knee was on his neck. That makes the cause of the heart attack
the stress of the arrest, not the actions of the police.

> What the defense needs is a
> qualified medical examiner who would offer the same opinions that you are.
> They'll probably dig one up assuming the choose not to reach a plea
> deal.

They already have the Medical examiners report. It found "cardiopulmonary
arrest" as the cause of death. Heart attack.

[David Von Pein]

BUD SAID:

The Medical examiner's report...found "cardiopulmonary arrest" as the

cause of death. Heart attack.

DAVID VON PEIN SAYS:

Lee Harvey Oswald had a cardiac arrest before he was pronounced dead too.
Do you think he died of a heart attack too? And should Jack Ruby now not
be viewed as a murderer?

[Bud]

On Wednesday, June 3, 2020 at 6:15:00 PM UTC-4, David Von Pein wrote:
> BUD SAID:
>
> The Medical examiner's report...found "cardiopulmonary arrest" as the
> cause of death. Heart attack.
>
>
> DAVID VON PEIN SAYS:
>
> Lee Harvey Oswald had a cardiac arrest before he was pronounced dead too.

Wasn`t the cause of death. He may have went into shock also, but that
wasn`t the cause of death. The cause of death was a gunshot wound to the
chest.

[chucksch...@gmail.com]

Oswald wasn't complaining that he couldn't breathe before Ruby plugged
him.

Nevertheless, Chauvin (married to a minority woman, I might add) is likely
going to do some time. In the law as far as what Bud is referring to, it's
called the eggshell rule or thin skull rule.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eggshell_skull



If someone punches somebody in the face in a bar fight, and it's later
determined that the victim was drunk to the point of incoherence based on
his blood alcohol level as determined by the coroner, it doesn't get the
puncher off the hook from a homicide charge, even if witnesses come
forward and claim the drunk had just stolen some old lady's purse before
stumbling into the bar for his fatal encounter.

The interesting twist here is showing Chauvin meant harm when he had Floyd
on the ground. I'm sure evidence at trial will show that Chauvin was
exercising the PROPER technique for subduing/calming someone under arrest
in that situation. Crooks say stuff like "I can't breathe!" all the time.
SO what? It's usually meaningless. Unfortunately for Chauvin, apparently
Floyd couldn't breathe.

Oswald at the TT: "I am not resisting arrest!"

Floyd: "I can't breathe!"

Quite frankly, almost anybody who is a cop and patrols these filthy cities
is a saint. The trust fund sissies throwing molotov cocktails
that--ironically--have destroyed dozens of MINORITY owned businesses
nationwide, and who spew the LIE that America is institutionally racist,
should hang their heads in shame. They have NO IDEA what these cops put up
with.

The biggest danger to black America is a liberal who cares.

The second biggest danger to black America is kids growing up without a
dad.

Way down on the list is police racism, like at number 1,252,1001.

The last day of George Floyd's life was also the worst day of Derek
Chauvin's life. I hope he's kept in isolation in prison, lest he's killed
in his cell.

Not that those defending Floyd would care.

[Bud]

On Wednesday, June 3, 2020 at 8:13:48 PM UTC-4, chucksch...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 3, 2020 at 5:15:00 PM UTC-5, David Von Pein wrote:
> > BUD SAID:
> >
> > The Medical examiner's report...found "cardiopulmonary arrest" as the
> > cause of death. Heart attack.
> >
> >
> > DAVID VON PEIN SAYS:
> >
> > Lee Harvey Oswald had a cardiac arrest before he was pronounced dead too.
> > Do you think he died of a heart attack too? And should Jack Ruby now not
> > be viewed as a murderer?
>
>
>
> Oswald wasn't complaining that he couldn't breathe before Ruby plugged
> him.
>
> Nevertheless, Chauvin (married to a minority woman, I might add) is likely
> going to do some time. In the law as far as what Bud is referring to, it's
> called the eggshell rule or thin skull rule.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eggshell_skull

Thanks for that, it was interesting and good to know.

But the problem as I see it is Floyd`s heart attack *started* during a
part of the arrest that *nobody* sees as unlawful, standing up by the side
of the patrol car. To say it another way, it was during the completely
*lawful* portion of the arrest that the heart attack started, it didn`t
start during the portion many feel was unlawful.

> If someone punches somebody in the face in a bar fight, and it's later
> determined that the victim was drunk to the point of incoherence based on
> his blood alcohol level as determined by the coroner, it doesn't get the
> puncher off the hook from a homicide charge, even if witnesses come
> forward and claim the drunk had just stolen some old lady's purse before
> stumbling into the bar for his fatal encounter.
>
> The interesting twist here is showing Chauvin meant harm when he had Floyd
> on the ground. I'm sure evidence at trial will show that Chauvin was
> exercising the PROPER technique for subduing/calming someone under arrest
> in that situation. Crooks say stuff like "I can't breathe!" all the time.
> SO what? It's usually meaningless. Unfortunately for Chauvin, apparently
> Floyd couldn't breathe.
>
> Oswald at the TT: "I am not resisting arrest!"
>
> Floyd: "I can't breathe!"

I was tempted to try and find some of the videos I`ve seen on youtube,
mostly on the "Police Activity" site of people being arrested trying all
sorts health gimmicks to make the arrests go harder, but I feel my
attempts to educate people on the realities of the world are mostly being
wasted. Plus, I`m lazy.

> Quite frankly, almost anybody who is a cop and patrols these filthy cities
> is a saint. The trust fund sissies throwing molotov cocktails
> that--ironically--have destroyed dozens of MINORITY owned businesses
> nationwide, and who spew the LIE that America is institutionally racist,
> should hang their heads in shame. They have NO IDEA what these cops put up
> with.

If I wasn`t so lazy, i would harvest some of the videos from Police
Activity to serve as examples, there are a slew of them. They made the
cops wear cameras, and what those cameras show is the shit the cops deal

with.

> The biggest danger to black America is a liberal who cares.

Chuck, there is a story brewing that many of these people running wild
during the rioting were criminals released from prison due to the urging
of liberals because of COVID-19. If this turns out to be true, and
politicians set criminals loose on the public only to have them wreak
destruction, then this is the time to arm. Because if Biden gets elected,
it is almost guaranteed he will select as a running mate someone from the
batshit crazy wing of the Democratic party. And when Biden inevitably goes
down from mental health issues, this person will be President. And they
might just pardon *all" the black prisoners, just to show how enlightened
they are.

> The second biggest danger to black America is kids growing up without a
> dad.
>
> Way down on the list is police racism, like at number 1,252,1001.
>
> The last day of George Floyd's life was also the worst day of Derek
> Chauvin's life. I hope he's kept in isolation in prison, lest he's killed
> in his cell.
>
> Not that those defending Floyd would care.

Funny thing about a cop like Chauvin, if you polled his fellow cops who
they would like with them in a tough spot, many would probably choose
him.

[jecorb...@yahoo.com]

Do you know of any cases in which a suspect suffered a heart attack after
just being handcuffed and his death was ruled a homicide. A ruling of
homicide indicates that the accused, Chauvin, committed an act which led
to Floyd's death.

I couldn't find a legal definition of the word "homicide" for the state of
Minnesota so I'll use the Merriam-Webster definition I posted earlier.

Definition of homicide
1
: a person who kills another
2
: a killing of one human being by another

detectives investigating a homicide

If we use this definition of homicide, the finding by the medical examiner
that this was a homicide indicates he believes Chauvin killed Floyd. It
would not apply if Floyd's fatal heart attack was coincidental with him
being handcuffed.

> > > > His report indicated the
> > > > knee on the neck had cut off blood flow to the brain. This triggered the
> > > > cardiac arrest that resulted in Floyd's death.
> > >
> > > Then why is Floyd saying "I can`t breathe" before he ever went to the
> > > ground? Shortness of breath is a sign of a heart attack.
> > >
> >
> > Hadn't read that but I'll take your word for it.
>
> You don`t have to, it is in the complaint against Chauvin...
>
> "The officers made several attempts to get Mr. Floyd in the backseat of
> squad 320 from the driver’s side. Mr. Floyd did not voluntarily
> get in the car and struggled with the officers by intentionally falling
> down, saying he was not going in the car, and refusing to stand still. Mr.
> Floyd is over six feet tall and weighs more than 200 pounds. While
> standing outside the car, Mr. Floyd began saying and repeating that he
> could not breathe. The defendant went to the passenger side and tried to
> get Mr. Floyd into the car from that side and Lane and Kueng assisted. The
> defendant pulled Mr. Floyd out of the passenger side of the squad car at
> 8:19:38 p.m. and Mr. Floyd went to the ground face down and still
> handcuffed."
>
> https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/6933246/Derek-Chauvin-Complaint.pdf
>
> > In the accounts I read
> > Floyd was claustrophobic
>
> He did five years in prison.
>

That would probably make me claustrophobic too.

> >and that was why he resisted being put in the
> > police car.
>
> They pulled him *out* of a car.
>
> > In any case, that is all the more reason for Chauvin not to
> > have put his knee on Floyd's throat for nearly 9 minutes.
>
> How come Floyd couldn`t breath when there was no knee on his neck?
>

Don't know the answer to that. Do you want me to guess?

> > For the sake of
> > argument, let's say Floyd was having a heart attack before Chauvin knelt
> > on his neck. Kneeling on somebody's neck who is experiencing a medical
> > emergency is the height of negligence which would make the homicide
> > criminal.
>
> If Floyd died of a heart attack, and the heart attack started before the
> knee was on his neck then the knee of the neck wasn`t the cause of the
> heart attack.
>

If Chauvin put a knee on Floyd's neck when he should have been calling for
medical assistance, that would be the height of criminal negligence.

You can believe as much of that as you like. I'm not going to assume any
of those things because none of them are certain.

> > that has no bearing on
> > whether Chauvin committed a crime.
>
> The chance of having interactions with police increases dramatically
> when you commit crime. If you can`t stand the stress of being put in a
> patrol car then perhaps you shouldn`t do things that cause cops to put you
> in a patrol car.
>

Chauvin isn't being charged with murder because he had an interaction with
Floyd. He is being charged with murder because the prosecutor believes the
evidence indicates Chauvin's actions caused Floyd's death. He will have to
show some of his cards to the grand jury and all of his cards when the
case goes to trial.

> > > > This is a red herring argument. It is
> > > > an attempt to blame the victim.
> > >
> > > It is an attempt to understand the event. There is a lot of "this is all
> > > I need to know" coming from the Floyd camp.
> > >
> >
> > All we need to know is if Chauvin committed a crime with his action of
> > kneeling on Floyd's neck for nearly nine minutes, almost three minutes
> > after being told Floyd had no pulse.
>
> No, that is all you want to focus on, that is not all there is to know.
>

Any other factors would be relevant to the question I framed.

>
> > > And I get it, all the people I talk to (mostly white) were appalled by
> > > that video. But all that good work getting blacks and whites finally on
> > > the same page is being wasted, destroyed actually. And since I see so much
> > > dishonesty in creating this narrative I think it is best that I throw my
> > > weight against it, and speak the truth as I see it.
> > >
> >
> > You seem to see the truth much better when you are discussing the JFK
> > assassination than when you are discussing this situation.
>
> Perhaps you should see things my way on this issue also, as I have such
> a good track record of being astute.
>

I think we both do.

> > > > > And the thing is if Floyd had taken better
> > > > > care of his health he might have survived this arrest. And the thing is
> > > > > that people like Floyd going around high on drugs doing whatever they like
> > > > > is a bigger societal problem than the actions of this cop.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > No it isn't. Rogue cops pose a far greater threat to society.
> > >
> > > I disagree. A few people making questionable choices under stressful
> > > situations is not that big a deal, and I say that knowing that a fair
> > > number of those victims are white. Idiots driving around under the
> > > influence, doing whatever they like, breaking laws, whatever, are the
> > > bigger threat to society, they make the world a shitty place.
> > >
> >
> > Allowing cops to commit atrocities and not holding them accountable is a
> > recipe for making the world a shitty place.
>
> Do you believe the intent of the cop was to end Floyd`s life?
>

Probably not although the upgrade of the charge to murder 2 means the AG
believes there was intent to kill. He apparently is privy to evidence that
I am not. I believe at the very least Chauvin's actions were negligent and
probably rose to the level of recklessness. He seemed to have no regard
for the health of Floyd.

That is already happening. I don't rely on cops for my safety because when
seconds count, the cops are just minutes away. My county is roughly 1000
square miles and at any one time 6 deputies are on patrol. In an
emergency, the nearest deputy might be ten minutes away. I carry a gun
when I am away from home because a cop won't fit in my pocket.

> https://www.fox29.com/news/philadelphia-officials-condemn-vigilantism-in-fishtown
>
> Rioting is fine, but if you band together to protect property, you are a
> "vigilante". They stood out in front of the 26th district to protect it
> from rioters, they know they need their cops more than ever.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIW3E8YL2dQ
>
> This is my police district.
>
> > Had it not been for bystanders taking the video of
> > Chauvin kneeling on Floyd's neck, Chauvin would likely still be on the
> > Minneapolis police force.
>
> Certainly it is easier to get the gist of something from film. Would
> your understanding of the Kennedy murder be the same without the zfilm?
>

Probably not although the case against Oswald could have easily been made
with out it.

> Trying to reconstruct events from witnesses is difficult, you know that
> some of the information you are getting has the potential of being wrong.
>

Cameras make very good witnesses.

> >The South Carolina cop who is now serving 20
> > years on a civil rights violation for shooting an unarmed fleeing suspect
> > in the back would likely still be a cop if a bystander had not recorded
> > that crime.
>
> Shame that you need actual evidence to convict a cop.
>

What's not a shame is the proliferation of video cameras is providing such
evidence.

>
> > > Crime like this
> > > is so commonplace it is banal. No riots, a headline and that is all, on to
> > > the next. Criminality like this is a much more a societal problem, and
> > > Floyd was contributing to this overall shitty atmosphere the cops have to
> > > deal with. What if Floyd hit a kid while high on drugs, what then?
> >
> > Then Floyd would be the one facing a reckless homicide charge.
>
> But not seen as a societal problem at all. No riots, one headline,
> nothing to see here, move along. The media will inform you what lives
> matter.

That much is true. But Floyd would still be facing serious jail time.

>
> > > One
> > > headline, no protests, no riots. And Floyd did five years for the armed
> > > robbery of some woman. Does she still get cold sweats over the incident,
> > > is she still looking over her shoulder to this day? I think I read that it
> > > cost $50,000 a years to keep a prisoner, so Floyd cost the taxpayers a
> > > quarter of a million, aside from court cost (surely the taxpayers provided
> > > him with a lawyer), police costs, not counting whatever aid or benefits he
> > > gets from the government. I`d say that hundreds of thousands of George
> > > Floyds running around have a much more negative impact on society than a
> > > few "rogue cops". The problem is nobody speaks the truth about these
> > > things, the Narratives are heavily one sided, Floyd is not allowed to be
> > > looked at at all, it is "blaming the victim" as you called it. "How does
> > > that matter?" is the refrain when he is scrutinized, it has been decided
> > > by the powers that be that the cop`s knee on Floyd is the only thing that
> > > matters.
> > >
> >
> > People who commit crimes should be held accountable, even if they have
> > badges pinned to their shirts.
>
> And they are.
>

In this case.

>
> > > > > There are a lot of "things".
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > --- George is both
> > > > > > ALIVE and then DEAD while under the knee of the murdering police officer.
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes, he was alive when his heart was working and he was dead when it
> > > > > stopped.
> > > > >
> > > > > > The math's pretty easy to do here. Why can't you perform it in this case,
> > > > > > Bud?
> > > > >
> > > > > "guy died, cops fault" is too simplistic for my tastes.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > In this case it is pretty simple. As simple as Oswald shot Kennedy.
> > >
> > > Not so simple.
> > >
> > > One autopsy saying asphyxiation, another saying no asphyxiation. I
> > > suspect that since Baden went out on a limb and said that the Floyd
> > > autopsy he performed showed no heart disease, that any sign of heart
> > > disease in Floyd`s medical history will cut that limb off.
> > >
> > > And I think the evidence will show that Floyd was saying "I can`t
> > > breathe" before he went to the ground, before the cops were on him. How
> > > can that be explained? Not by cops choking him. I can explain it, his
> > > heart attack had already started.
> > >
> >
> > Do you think it is a good idea to kneel on the neck of someone who is
> > having a heart attack and is telling you he can't breathe?
>
> Don`t you think him saying "I can`t breathe" before the knee was on his
> neck might indicate the knee was not the cause of him not being able to
> breathe?
>

If that is indeed what happened, Chauvin was negligent in kneeling on the
neck of a man suffering a medical emergency. That makes its a negligent
homicide which is a crime.

> The cop isn`t a paramedic, he sees George saying he can`t breathe" while
> just standing there, perhaps he sees it as fake complaint to stop from
> being arrested, like the claustrophobia claim, so he pays it no mind.
>

Extremely negligent. Chauvin wasn't qualified to determine whether Floyd
was having a medical emergency or not. Common sense should have told him
to error on the side of caution. I happen to think Chauvin was being
reckless as opposed to simple negligence.

> I can see it being different if he is standing there saying "I can`t
> breathe", yet still resisting arrest, as compared to if he didn`t start
> saying "I can`t breathe" until he was on the ground in the perception of
> the cops.
>
>
> >It seems to me
> > if that is the case, that makes Chauvin's actions even more reprehensible,
> > not less.
> >
> > > > > > > Autopsy mentions "fentanyl intoxication", which is an opioid, and recent
> > > > > > > methamphetamine use (that`s what you want to do when you have a bad
> > > > > > > heart).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sounds like you're looking for an excuse to exonerate a murderer.
> > > > >
> > > > > I love this. *Nothing* this guy does matters, nothing does harm to the
> > > > > Narrative, none of Floyd`s actions matter that led up to this, only the
> > > > > cop`s actions can be looked at.
> > > >
> > > > None of Floyd's action were justification for what the cops did to him so
> > > > yet none of that matters.
> > >
> > > Nothing the cops did is justification for Floyd`s actions. We are each
> > > of us responsible for our own actions.
> >
> > Nobody is trying to justify Floyd's actions. The question is if there is
> > any justification for the actions of the arresting officers. I don't see
> > any.
>
> Why were they called, why were they there? They arrest lawbreakers.
>

Floyd was arrested when they a slapped the cuff on him.

Shortness of breathe doesn't automatically lead to cardiac arrest. Floyd
might have been having a panic attack. The added stress of the knee on his
neck might have been what triggered the heart attack.

> > > > > > (I hope you're not going to start crying "Fake Video!". That stunt, too,
> > > > > > should be reserved for JFK CTers.)
> > > > >
> > > > > Things are not always how they look. The video doesn`t capture Floyd`s
> > > > > heart failing.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > That's why we have medical examiners. He said it was a homicide.
> > >
> > > I think you misunderstand how that is used in this context. the ME`s
> > > report say about the term "homicide" "is not a legal determination of
> > > culpability or intent."
> > >
> >
> > I learned about the legal definition of homicide when I took my concealed
> > carry class. I learned that if I kill someone in self defense, I have
> > still committed a homicide. I would have the burden of establishing it was
> > a justifiable homicide and not a crime. Homicides can be intentional,
> > justifiable, reckless, negligent or accidental.
>
> Then just finding of "homicide" isn`t in itself damning.
>

No, not by itself but throw in the recording and you have a pretty damning
case.

[JUDGE HOLDEN]

Oswald did not have fentanyl and methamphetamine in his body. Fetanyl
causes respiratory repression.

[David Von Pein]

An Observation Regarding The Now-Famous Video Of The Floyd Murder....

When watching the full nine-minute video again, I noticed something that I
had thought was visible in the video which actually isn't true at all ---
and that is: Police Officer/Murderer Derek Chauvin does *not* have his
left hand in his pocket at any time during the time he is kneeling on the
neck of George Floyd. It sure does look like Chauvin has his hand in his
left pocket almost the whole time, but we can see in the full-length video
that he's wearing black gloves, which perfectly match his pants, giving
the appearance of his hand being in his pocket when his left hand is, in
reality, just resting on his left leg.

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2020/05/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1338.html

[Bud]

I don`t follow such things, but I do know the Medical Examiner`s report
had "Manner of death is not a legal determination of culpability or
intent, and should not be used to usurp the judicial process."

https://content.govdelivery.com/attachments/MNHENNE/2020/06/01/file_attachments/1464238/2020-3700%20Floyd,%20George%20Perry%20Update%206.1.2020.pdf

> A ruling of
> homicide indicates that the accused, Chauvin, committed an act which led
> to Floyd's death.

It doesn`t mean wrongdoing, so it doesn`t mean anything significant to
our discussions.

No, I want you to show that Floyd isn`t having a heart attack at this
point in time, when no wrongdoing is said to occur. Because I think that
is what the prosecutors are going to have to show. And they might have to
show that Floyd would not have died if the arrest hadn`t gone to the
ground.

> > > For the sake of
> > > argument, let's say Floyd was having a heart attack before Chauvin knelt
> > > on his neck. Kneeling on somebody's neck who is experiencing a medical
> > > emergency is the height of negligence which would make the homicide
> > > criminal.
> >
> > If Floyd died of a heart attack, and the heart attack started before the
> > knee was on his neck then the knee of the neck wasn`t the cause of the
> > heart attack.
> >
>
> If Chauvin put a knee on Floyd's neck when he should have been calling for
> medical assistance, that would be the height of criminal negligence.

I never said he was blameless. But proving that it was Chauvin that
ended his life rather than a heart attack that had already started is
going to be problematic.

Nobody has a problem with the PR job the media has been doing on his
behalf.

> > > that has no bearing on
> > > whether Chauvin committed a crime.
> >
> > The chance of having interactions with police increases dramatically
> > when you commit crime. If you can`t stand the stress of being put in a
> > patrol car then perhaps you shouldn`t do things that cause cops to put you
> > in a patrol car.
> >
>
> Chauvin isn't being charged with murder because he had an interaction with
> Floyd.

But the interaction of him being arrested could have caused him to have
a heart attack. That is what he died of.

>He is being charged with murder because the prosecutor believes the
> evidence indicates Chauvin's actions caused Floyd's death.

You don`t know that. There is a huge amount of political pressure. They
didn`t want to charge Zimmerman with anything because they knew it was a
loser in court, but political pressure forced them to.

> He will have to
> show some of his cards to the grand jury and all of his cards when the
> case goes to trial.
>
> > > > > This is a red herring argument. It is
> > > > > an attempt to blame the victim.
> > > >
> > > > It is an attempt to understand the event. There is a lot of "this is all
> > > > I need to know" coming from the Floyd camp.
> > > >
> > >
> > > All we need to know is if Chauvin committed a crime with his action of
> > > kneeling on Floyd's neck for nearly nine minutes, almost three minutes
> > > after being told Floyd had no pulse.
> >
> > No, that is all you want to focus on, that is not all there is to know.
> >
> Any other factors would be relevant to the question I framed.
> >
> > > > And I get it, all the people I talk to (mostly white) were appalled by
> > > > that video. But all that good work getting blacks and whites finally on
> > > > the same page is being wasted, destroyed actually. And since I see so much
> > > > dishonesty in creating this narrative I think it is best that I throw my
> > > > weight against it, and speak the truth as I see it.
> > > >
> > >
> > > You seem to see the truth much better when you are discussing the JFK
> > > assassination than when you are discussing this situation.
> >
> > Perhaps you should see things my way on this issue also, as I have such
> > a good track record of being astute.
> >
>
> I think we both do.

OK.

> > > > > > And the thing is if Floyd had taken better
> > > > > > care of his health he might have survived this arrest. And the thing is
> > > > > > that people like Floyd going around high on drugs doing whatever they like
> > > > > > is a bigger societal problem than the actions of this cop.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > No it isn't. Rogue cops pose a far greater threat to society.
> > > >
> > > > I disagree. A few people making questionable choices under stressful
> > > > situations is not that big a deal, and I say that knowing that a fair
> > > > number of those victims are white. Idiots driving around under the
> > > > influence, doing whatever they like, breaking laws, whatever, are the
> > > > bigger threat to society, they make the world a shitty place.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Allowing cops to commit atrocities and not holding them accountable is a
> > > recipe for making the world a shitty place.
> >
> > Do you believe the intent of the cop was to end Floyd`s life?
> >
>
> Probably not although the upgrade of the charge to murder 2 means the AG
> believes there was intent to kill.

Wouldn`t the gun on Chauvin`s hip been more efficient?

>He apparently is privy to evidence that
> I am not.

He is probably aware of political pressure that you aren`t aware of.

> I believe at the very least Chauvin's actions were negligent and
> probably rose to the level of recklessness. He seemed to have no regard
> for the health of Floyd.

I agree. But if heart attack is the cause of death, and no wrongdoing by
Chauvin caused Floyd to have that heart attack, then blaming Chauvin for
Floyd`s death is problematic.

Not that often. It probably keeps them from getting falsely charged more
often. Maybe we should put cameras on everyone, and end all crime. Funny
that the activists who demanded these cameras did blacks a disservice,
they have to be adding time and confirming crimes. I saw a incident filmed
from a dash cam where there was a car stop for a minor infraction, and a
guy gets out and body slams the officer on the ground. Now if the cop
writes in his report that the guy attacked him, that is one thing, but
when you actually *see* the attack, it has to add time to sentence.

Then there are these cases...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRJAWYJQJfQ&t=4s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uOsRZwZk34

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdsi6pvqe9w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4myVJSyHBbw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGBko4WdFzg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRkrnSePEoM

> >
> > > > Crime like this
> > > > is so commonplace it is banal. No riots, a headline and that is all, on to
> > > > the next. Criminality like this is a much more a societal problem, and
> > > > Floyd was contributing to this overall shitty atmosphere the cops have to
> > > > deal with. What if Floyd hit a kid while high on drugs, what then?
> > >
> > > Then Floyd would be the one facing a reckless homicide charge.
> >
> > But not seen as a societal problem at all. No riots, one headline,
> > nothing to see here, move along. The media will inform you what lives
> > matter.
>
> That much is true. But Floyd would still be facing serious jail time.

He did before. Didn`t deter him from being a dumbass threat to society.

> > > > One
> > > > headline, no protests, no riots. And Floyd did five years for the armed
> > > > robbery of some woman. Does she still get cold sweats over the incident,
> > > > is she still looking over her shoulder to this day? I think I read that it
> > > > cost $50,000 a years to keep a prisoner, so Floyd cost the taxpayers a
> > > > quarter of a million, aside from court cost (surely the taxpayers provided
> > > > him with a lawyer), police costs, not counting whatever aid or benefits he
> > > > gets from the government. I`d say that hundreds of thousands of George
> > > > Floyds running around have a much more negative impact on society than a
> > > > few "rogue cops". The problem is nobody speaks the truth about these
> > > > things, the Narratives are heavily one sided, Floyd is not allowed to be
> > > > looked at at all, it is "blaming the victim" as you called it. "How does
> > > > that matter?" is the refrain when he is scrutinized, it has been decided
> > > > by the powers that be that the cop`s knee on Floyd is the only thing that
> > > > matters.
> > > >
> > >
> > > People who commit crimes should be held accountable, even if they have
> > > badges pinned to their shirts.
> >
> > And they are.
> >
>
> In this case.

This is the one we are examining. You have to look at each case on it`s
merits. "someone said" isn`t really good enough, for one thing a criminal
has a good reason to lie. And many people would lie to get a cop in
trouble.

There is a huge disconnect between the visceral reaction of the mobs and
the cold facts allowed and considered in a court of law. The the pressure
is mounting to allow emotionalism to dictate the outcomes in courts, and
that is dangerous. This isn`t Roman times where the crowd gives a thumbs
up or thumbs down to determine the outcome.

I wrote this five days ago...

"Perhaps negligent homicide. He should have rendered aid, he shouldn`t
have just ignored his prisoner`s condition and vitals."

My position hasn`t moved towards yours, I`ve persuaded you of the
validity of my position. Seems I was the astute one after all, and you and
DVP`s digs that I was so right about the JFK assassination but so wrong in
this case were unfounded.

> > The cop isn`t a paramedic, he sees George saying he can`t breathe" while
> > just standing there, perhaps he sees it as fake complaint to stop from
> > being arrested, like the claustrophobia claim, so he pays it no mind.
> >
>
> Extremely negligent. Chauvin wasn't qualified to determine whether Floyd
> was having a medical emergency or not. Common sense should have told him
> to error on the side of caution. I happen to think Chauvin was being
> reckless as opposed to simple negligence.

But it could be that the event and people`s perception of the event are
light years apart. And the media should be informing them that what they
think happened, or what it looks like happened might not necessarily be
what happened. If not they are bound to be disappointed by the legal
verdict, and there is bound to be more rioting. And I blame the media for
not explaining things to the public, and think the leftist media actually
is instigating the violence rather than deescalating it.

> > I can see it being different if he is standing there saying "I can`t
> > breathe", yet still resisting arrest, as compared to if he didn`t start
> > saying "I can`t breathe" until he was on the ground in the perception of
> > the cops.
> >
> >
> > >It seems to me
> > > if that is the case, that makes Chauvin's actions even more reprehensible,
> > > not less.
> > >
> > > > > > > > Autopsy mentions "fentanyl intoxication", which is an opioid, and recent
> > > > > > > > methamphetamine use (that`s what you want to do when you have a bad
> > > > > > > > heart).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Sounds like you're looking for an excuse to exonerate a murderer.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I love this. *Nothing* this guy does matters, nothing does harm to the
> > > > > > Narrative, none of Floyd`s actions matter that led up to this, only the
> > > > > > cop`s actions can be looked at.
> > > > >
> > > > > None of Floyd's action were justification for what the cops did to him so
> > > > > yet none of that matters.
> > > >
> > > > Nothing the cops did is justification for Floyd`s actions. We are each
> > > > of us responsible for our own actions.
> > >
> > > Nobody is trying to justify Floyd's actions. The question is if there is
> > > any justification for the actions of the arresting officers. I don't see
> > > any.
> >
> > Why were they called, why were they there? They arrest lawbreakers.
> >
>
> Floyd was arrested when they a slapped the cuff on him.

Maybe even before that. I assume you`d be under arrest if they merely
said "you`re under arrest".

I remember watching a video of police arresting Eric Garner, they told
him he was under arrest and spent a good long time trying to convince him
to come along peaceably (I can`t find the long version that includes these
negotiations). It was a similar case, his shortness of breath caused by a
heart condition, and it went before a grand jury and it decided there was
no grounds for an indictment.

When someone shows the signs of a heart attack and then dies of a heart
attack, there may be some connection.

> Floyd
> might have been having a panic attack.

Do you think the prosecution will be able to show that it is a panic
attack? Because it is up to them to do so.

And what you speculated will probably be used by Chauvin`s defense,
since panic attacks aren`t fatal. Since Floyd was claiming claustrophobia,
Chauvin might have assumed Floyd was having a panic attack. Probably the
trained response to a panic attack is to keep the suspect immobile.

> The added stress of the knee on his
> neck might have been what triggered the heart attack.

So the prior "I can`t breath" was different than the later "I can`t
breath"? Good luck showing that.

>
>
> > > > > > > (I hope you're not going to start crying "Fake Video!". That stunt, too,
> > > > > > > should be reserved for JFK CTers.)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Things are not always how they look. The video doesn`t capture Floyd`s
> > > > > > heart failing.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > That's why we have medical examiners. He said it was a homicide.
> > > >
> > > > I think you misunderstand how that is used in this context. the ME`s
> > > > report say about the term "homicide" "is not a legal determination of
> > > > culpability or intent."
> > > >
> > >
> > > I learned about the legal definition of homicide when I took my concealed
> > > carry class. I learned that if I kill someone in self defense, I have
> > > still committed a homicide. I would have the burden of establishing it was
> > > a justifiable homicide and not a crime. Homicides can be intentional,
> > > justifiable, reckless, negligent or accidental.
> >
> > Then just finding of "homicide" isn`t in itself damning.
> >
>
> No, not by itself but throw in the recording and you have a pretty damning
> case.

But the word isn`t that meaningful unless wrongdoing can be proven.

People are treating it like a conviction when it doesn`t speak the
legality of the event at all.

[jecorb...@yahoo.com]

There are only two circumstances in which there could be wrongdoing in the
event of a homicide. One is if it is an accidental homicide in which there
was no negligence or recklessness on the part of the person who caused the
death. I think using vehicular homicides can illustrate the point. If I'm
driving down a street obeying all traffic laws and keeping my attention on
the road in front of me and a child suddenly runs in front of my car and I
hit and kill him, that might meet the legal definition of a homicide but
it is clear that I would not be at fault. Now let's suppose I am making a
turn from one street onto another and I fail to see a child who is legally
in the crosswalk. Again I kill the child. That would be an example of
negligent homicide because it is my responsibility to yield to pedestrians
in a crosswalk. Now suppose I am intoxicated and I am driving my car 60
mph when I hit and kill a child crossing the street. That would clearly be
an example of a reckless homicide. While I had no intention of killing the
child, the fact that I acted in a way that was so reckless that there was
a great likelihood such a tragedy would ensue would be enough raise the
level of crime to Murder 3.

If I had to render a judgement based on what has been made public, I would
rule that Chauvin is guilty of a reckless homicide which would be first
degree manslaughter. Depending on what further mitigating or aggravating
circumstances come to light, I could be persuaded it was simply a
negligent act and there for second degree or that the Chauvin is guilty of
Murder 3. I think it is real stretct to call it Murder 2 which requires
proof that Chauvin intended to kill Floyd but maybe the AG knows something
we don't know.

Even if you convinced me that Floyd was having a heart attack before he
got pinned to the ground, I would say Chauvin was guilty of a homicide
that was both negligent and reckless. 2/3 of heart attack victims survive.
We will never know what the outcome would have been had Chauvin not knelt
on Floyd's throat but if Chauvin acted in a way that contributed to
Floyd's death, he is guilty of a homicide.

I don't know if you saw the movie Road to Perdition. I know it is a work
of fiction but will illustrate a hypothetical. Jude Law plaid a crime
scene photographer who was called to the scene of a knife homicide. The
cops had finished their work and left Law alone with the body which was
laying on the floor with a knife in the heart. As Law was setting up to
take his pictures, the victim suddenly came to life and started to moan.
Law proceeded to smother him.

Event though the victim probably would have died anyway, Law clearly
committed a homicide. Floyd to might have died anyway. We'll never know
but Chauvin contributed to his death by kneeling on his throat.

>
> > > > For the sake of
> > > > argument, let's say Floyd was having a heart attack before Chauvin knelt
> > > > on his neck. Kneeling on somebody's neck who is experiencing a medical
> > > > emergency is the height of negligence which would make the homicide
> > > > criminal.
> > >
> > > If Floyd died of a heart attack, and the heart attack started before the
> > > knee was on his neck then the knee of the neck wasn`t the cause of the
> > > heart attack.
> > >
> >
> > If Chauvin put a knee on Floyd's neck when he should have been calling for
> > medical assistance, that would be the height of criminal negligence.
>
> I never said he was blameless. But proving that it was Chauvin that
> ended his life rather than a heart attack that had already started is
> going to be problematic.
>

I don't see it as at all problematic. Even if Chauvin's act only hastened
Floyd's death by two minutes, he is culpable for Floyd's death.

He died of a heart attack because Chauvin was kneeling on his throat.

And more obvious with a civilian recording it.

> >He apparently is privy to evidence that
> > I am not.
>
> He is probably aware of political pressure that you aren`t aware of.
>

I'm well aware of the fact that politics is driving these decisions. I
think Murder 2 is a bridge too far. At most it is Murder 3 and maybe just
manslaughter.

> > I believe at the very least Chauvin's actions were negligent and
> > probably rose to the level of recklessness. He seemed to have no regard
> > for the health of Floyd.
>
> I agree. But if heart attack is the cause of death, and no wrongdoing by
> Chauvin caused Floyd to have that heart attack, then blaming Chauvin for
> Floyd`s death is problematic.
>

That isn't true. Floyd might have survived the heart attack had it not
been for Chauvin's recklessness. We can't assume Floyd would have died.

None of these are relevant to the Floyd killing. Floyd did not attack the
cop who killed him.

I have always allowed for the possibility it was a negligent act but I
believe now what I have believed all along, that it was a reckless
homicide worthy of a first degree manslaughter charges.

>
> > > The cop isn`t a paramedic, he sees George saying he can`t breathe" while
> > > just standing there, perhaps he sees it as fake complaint to stop from
> > > being arrested, like the claustrophobia claim, so he pays it no mind.
> > >
> >
> > Extremely negligent. Chauvin wasn't qualified to determine whether Floyd
> > was having a medical emergency or not. Common sense should have told him
> > to error on the side of caution. I happen to think Chauvin was being
> > reckless as opposed to simple negligence.
>
> But it could be that the event and people`s perception of the event are
> light years apart. And the media should be informing them that what they
> think happened, or what it looks like happened might not necessarily be
> what happened. If not they are bound to be disappointed by the legal
> verdict, and there is bound to be more rioting. And I blame the media for
> not explaining things to the public, and think the leftist media actually
> is instigating the violence rather than deescalating it.
>

Further facts might come to light that could persuade me the charge could
be more or less serious but base on what I have seen saw far, I would say
it was a reckless homicide.

I don't see these two cases as comparable.

The prosecution only has to prove that Chauvin criminally contributed to
Floyd's death.

> And what you speculated will probably be used by Chauvin`s defense,
> since panic attacks aren`t fatal. Since Floyd was claiming claustrophobia,
> Chauvin might have assumed Floyd was having a panic attack. Probably the
> trained response to a panic attack is to keep the suspect immobile.
>

I think it is going to be a tough sell to the jury to convince them
Chauvin was acting in Floyd's best interest.

>
> > The added stress of the knee on his
> > neck might have been what triggered the heart attack.
>
> So the prior "I can`t breath" was different than the later "I can`t
> breath"? Good luck showing that.
>
> >
> >
> > > > > > > > (I hope you're not going to start crying "Fake Video!". That stunt, too,
> > > > > > > > should be reserved for JFK CTers.)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Things are not always how they look. The video doesn`t capture Floyd`s
> > > > > > > heart failing.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That's why we have medical examiners. He said it was a homicide.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think you misunderstand how that is used in this context. the ME`s
> > > > > report say about the term "homicide" "is not a legal determination of
> > > > > culpability or intent."
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > I learned about the legal definition of homicide when I took my concealed
> > > > carry class. I learned that if I kill someone in self defense, I have
> > > > still committed a homicide. I would have the burden of establishing it was
> > > > a justifiable homicide and not a crime. Homicides can be intentional,
> > > > justifiable, reckless, negligent or accidental.
> > >
> > > Then just finding of "homicide" isn`t in itself damning.
> > >
> >
> > No, not by itself but throw in the recording and you have a pretty damning
> > case.
>
> But the word isn`t that meaningful unless wrongdoing can be proven.
>

I can't believe anyone could look a that video and not conclude there was
criminal wrongdoing.

[Bud]

I`m reading that as "no wrongdoing".

> in the
> event of a homicide. One is if it is an accidental homicide in which there
> was no negligence or recklessness on the part of the person who caused the
> death. I think using vehicular homicides can illustrate the point. If I'm
> driving down a street obeying all traffic laws and keeping my attention on
> the road in front of me and a child suddenly runs in front of my car and I
> hit and kill him, that might meet the legal definition of a homicide but
> it is clear that I would not be at fault. Now let's suppose I am making a
> turn from one street onto another and I fail to see a child who is legally
> in the crosswalk. Again I kill the child. That would be an example of
> negligent homicide because it is my responsibility to yield to pedestrians
> in a crosswalk. Now suppose I am intoxicated and I am driving my car 60
> mph when I hit and kill a child crossing the street. That would clearly be
> an example of a reckless homicide. While I had no intention of killing the
> child, the fact that I acted in a way that was so reckless that there was
> a great likelihood such a tragedy would ensue would be enough raise the
> level of crime to Murder 3.

Food for thought, Floyd had Covid-19, and in the ten minutes of his life
I know about he potentially infected at least 10 people (people at the
store, people in the car with him, the arresting officers) if any acquired
the virus and died from it could Floyd be charged with reckless homicide?
I mean, shouldn`t he be self-quarantining?

> If I had to render a judgement based on what has been made public, I would
> rule that Chauvin is guilty of a reckless homicide which would be first
> degree manslaughter. Depending on what further mitigating or aggravating
> circumstances come to light, I could be persuaded it was simply a
> negligent act and there for second degree or that the Chauvin is guilty of
> Murder 3. I think it is real stretct to call it Murder 2 which requires
> proof that Chauvin intended to kill Floyd but maybe the AG knows something
> we don't know.

Floyd`s brother is calling murder one and the death penalty. He is
setting it up for failure, which will ensure more rioting.

Anyway, I just wrote this over in the Nuthouse, and I would be surprised
if what I laid out isn`t the tact the defense uses...

"I`ll tell you the truth, even though I know you can`t handle it. George
Floyd died from a heart attack. Shortness of breath is a sign of a heart
attack, and Floyd was saying he couldn`t breath long before Chauvin`s knee
was on his neck. So if the heart attack started before Chauvin`s knee was
on his neck, and Floyd died of a heart attack, the Chauvin didn`t cause
the heart attack that killed Floyd. You following me so far, because it is
going to get even more tricky, and I don`t want to lose you. Now when they
tried to put Floyd in the patrol car, he claimed he was claustrophobic. It
is quite likely going to be that Chauvin`s defense will be that he thought
Floyd was having a panic attack, due to his fear of being put into the
patrol due to claustrophobia that Floyd claimed to suffer from. It is also
quite likely that police are trained to keep a person who is having a
panic attack immobile (hence four cops pinning him). I looked at the
autopsy and saw that there is no mention of any bruising on Floyd`s neck,
I don`t think it can be shown that Chauvin ever had serious pressure on
Floyd`s neck. I know you will disregard this in favor of the false
narratives you have been fed and what you want to believe, but when it
plays out like this in court remember you heard it here first."

[Not a direct quote, I cleaned it up some]

I think Chauvin`s defense will only need to show it is a plausible
possibility.

> I would say Chauvin was guilty of a homicide
> that was both negligent and reckless. 2/3 of heart attack victims survive.

And one third don`t. Which is why I said earlier that Floyd might have
died regardless of what the cops did or did not do.

> We will never know what the outcome would have been had Chauvin not knelt
> on Floyd's throat but if Chauvin acted in a way that contributed to
> Floyd's death, he is guilty of a homicide.
>
> I don't know if you saw the movie Road to Perdition. I know it is a work
> of fiction but will illustrate a hypothetical. Jude Law plaid a crime
> scene photographer who was called to the scene of a knife homicide. The
> cops had finished their work and left Law alone with the body which was
> laying on the floor with a knife in the heart. As Law was setting up to
> take his pictures, the victim suddenly came to life and started to moan.
> Law proceeded to smother him.
>
> Event though the victim probably would have died anyway, Law clearly
> committed a homicide. Floyd to might have died anyway. We'll never know
> but Chauvin contributed to his death by kneeling on his throat.

Assuming what you need to show. No bruising of the neck shown in the
autopsy.

> > > > > For the sake of
> > > > > argument, let's say Floyd was having a heart attack before Chauvin knelt
> > > > > on his neck. Kneeling on somebody's neck who is experiencing a medical
> > > > > emergency is the height of negligence which would make the homicide
> > > > > criminal.
> > > >
> > > > If Floyd died of a heart attack, and the heart attack started before the
> > > > knee was on his neck then the knee of the neck wasn`t the cause of the
> > > > heart attack.
> > > >
> > >
> > > If Chauvin put a knee on Floyd's neck when he should have been calling for
> > > medical assistance, that would be the height of criminal negligence.
> >
> > I never said he was blameless. But proving that it was Chauvin that
> > ended his life rather than a heart attack that had already started is
> > going to be problematic.
> >
>
> I don't see it as at all problematic. Even if Chauvin's act only hastened
> Floyd's death by two minutes, he is culpable for Floyd's death.

How could that be ascertained?

Again, you assume what you can`t show.

He is aware he is being filmed and decides to kill the person he is
arresting? You are reaching for the fantastic to make bad ideas seem
plausible.

> > >He apparently is privy to evidence that
> > > I am not.
> >
> > He is probably aware of political pressure that you aren`t aware of.
> >
>
> I'm well aware of the fact that politics is driving these decisions. I
> think Murder 2 is a bridge too far. At most it is Murder 3 and maybe just
> manslaughter.
>
> > > I believe at the very least Chauvin's actions were negligent and
> > > probably rose to the level of recklessness. He seemed to have no regard
> > > for the health of Floyd.
> >
> > I agree. But if heart attack is the cause of death, and no wrongdoing by
> > Chauvin caused Floyd to have that heart attack, then blaming Chauvin for
> > Floyd`s death is problematic.
> >
>
> That isn't true. Floyd might have survived the heart attack had it not
> been for Chauvin's recklessness. We can't assume Floyd would have died.

We can`t assume Chauvin`s knee played a role in Floyd`s death.

You didn`t hit the links, did you?

OK. I believe the only way to get there is through a visceral reaction
to the video.

I see similarities, both in the event and the reaction to the event.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 6/1/2020 12:25 PM, JUDGE HOLDEN wrote:
> On Monday, June 1, 2020 at 9:49:27 AM UTC-3, David Von Pein wrote:
>> On Sunday, May 31, 2020 at 10:48:53 PM UTC-4, JUDGE HOLDEN wrote:
>>> On Sunday, May 31, 2020 at 11:10:23 AM UTC-3, Steven M. Galbraith wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, May 30, 2020 at 7:03:17 PM UTC-4, jecorb...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>> Due to the fact that the county coroner ruled that Derek Floyd's death was
>>>>> not due directly to strangulation but by his body's reaction due to
>>>>> hypertension and coronary disease, prosecuting Derek Chauvin for murder
>>>>> will be problematic. Floyd's family is not satisfied with that finding and
>>>>> their attorney indicated HSCA head pathologist Dr. Michael Baden is being
>>>>> called in to render a second opinion. Baden was also called in to make a
>>>>> determination in the Michael Brown shooting. Cause of death is going to be
>>>>> critical in the prosecution of this cause because if the state can't prove
>>>>> Chauvin either intended to kill Floyd or acted in a reckless manner with
>>>>> nor regard for Floyd's well being, manslaughter is likely the most serious
>>>>> offense they could convict Chauvin of.
>>>>
>>>> The coroner said that: "Mr. Floyd had underlying health conditions
>>>> including coronary artery disease and hypertensive heart disease. The
>>>> *combined effects* of Mr. Floyd being restrained by the police, his
>>>> underlying health conditions and any potential intoxicants in his system
>>>> likely contributed to his death."
>>>>
>>>> Floyd repeatedly stated that he couldn't breathe but the officer kept his
>>>> knee on his neck and didn't allow him to sit up.
>>>>
>>>> Not to be petty, his name was George Floyd not Derek.
>>>>
>>>> Here's the report: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6933248-27-CR-20-12646-Complaint.html#text/p2
>>>
>>> Floyd must have been able to breathe when he said, "I can't breathe."
>>
>> Oh for Pete sake. Get real. Please don't tell me that some people are
>> actually going to quibble about the exact words that George Floyd used in
>> his dying minutes as he was being gagged by the knee of Murderer Chauvin
>> on 5/25/20. Don't give me that lame-ass excuse. That's pathetic.
>>
>> When somebody is saying "I can't breathe", they actually (technically)
>> mean (of course): "I'm having a hard time breathing right now."
>>
>> But should we be silly enough to call Mr. Floyd a liar because he used the
>> words "I can't breathe" instead of using the more accurate words "I'm
>> having trouble breathing right now due to the fact this son-of-a-bitch
>> policeman from Minnesota has jammed his left knee on my neck"?
>
> If he could talk then he had the capacity to breathe.
>


No, silly. You talk when you exhale. You are not a doctor.
Stop making excises for murderers.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 6/1/2020 8:37 PM, jecorb...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Monday, June 1, 2020 at 2:05:19 PM UTC-4, Anthony Marsh wrote:
>> On 5/31/2020 6:26 PM, jecorb...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> On Sunday, May 31, 2020 at 3:55:51 PM UTC-4, Anthony Marsh wrote:

>>>> On 5/30/2020 7:03 PM, jecorb...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>> Due to the fact that the county coroner ruled that Derek Floyd's death was
>>>>> not due directly to strangulation but by his body's reaction due to
>>>>> hypertension and coronary disease, prosecuting Derek Chauvin for murder
>>>>

>>>> OMG, he also killed the singer Derek Floyd? Was he out to kill ANYONE
>>>> named Floyd?
>>>> Why are YOU allowed to mention that? I would be censored.

>>>>
>>>>> will be problematic. Floyd's family is not satisfied with that finding
>>>>> and
>>>>

>>>> It is only problematic because he is a cop. If he wasn't a cop it would
>>>> be an open and shut case.
>>>>
>>>> Well, I am still confused about their weird laws. There seems to be a tier
>>>> of charges based on who the killer is. Maybe they could charge him with
>>>> Murder 15 and he'd only get a $10 fine.

>>>>
>>>>> their attorney indicated HSCA head pathologist Dr. Michael Baden is being
>>>>> called in to render a second opinion. Baden was also called in to make a
>>>>> determination in the Michael Brown shooting. Cause of death is going to be
>>>>

>>>> Gee, that's real hard to figure out.
>>>> Maybe it could be poisoning or maybe Covid-19 or old age.
>>>> We can SEE him being choked and YOU can't figure out what the cause of
>>>> death is?

>>>>
>>>>> critical in the prosecution of this cause because if the state can't prove
>>>>> Chauvin either intended to kill Floyd or acted in a reckless manner with
>>>>

>>>> I think that would be Murder 1 in most states, but maybe not there.

>>>>
>>>>> nor regard for Floyd's well being, manslaughter is likely the most serious
>>>>> offense they could convict Chauvin of.
>>>>>
>>>>

>>>> Well, why can't you charge him with 15 crimes and see which one sticks?
>>>
>>> Why do you offer to work as a consultant to the Minneapolis prosecutor's
>>> office?
>>
>> I haven't. Do you mean "why DON'T I"? I don't need no damn degree. I
>> have eyes. I can see what happened in the video.
>> Why don't YOU volunteer to replicate what was done to George Floyd?
>>
>
> Yes, that was a typo. My comment was directed at what you are proposing
> the Minneapolis prosecutor should do, not what you see in the video.
> That's why I intended to ask you why you don't offer to act as a
> consultant. I'm sure he would appreciate your help.
>

Silly. Consult on what?

[jecorb...@yahoo.com]

Yup. I did it again.

> > in the
> > event of a homicide. One is if it is an accidental homicide in which there
> > was no negligence or recklessness on the part of the person who caused the
> > death. I think using vehicular homicides can illustrate the point. If I'm
> > driving down a street obeying all traffic laws and keeping my attention on
> > the road in front of me and a child suddenly runs in front of my car and I
> > hit and kill him, that might meet the legal definition of a homicide but
> > it is clear that I would not be at fault. Now let's suppose I am making a
> > turn from one street onto another and I fail to see a child who is legally
> > in the crosswalk. Again I kill the child. That would be an example of
> > negligent homicide because it is my responsibility to yield to pedestrians
> > in a crosswalk. Now suppose I am intoxicated and I am driving my car 60
> > mph when I hit and kill a child crossing the street. That would clearly be
> > an example of a reckless homicide. While I had no intention of killing the
> > child, the fact that I acted in a way that was so reckless that there was
> > a great likelihood such a tragedy would ensue would be enough raise the
> > level of crime to Murder 3.
>
> Food for thought, Floyd had Covid-19, and in the ten minutes of his life
> I know about he potentially infected at least 10 people (people at the
> store, people in the car with him, the arresting officers) if any acquired
> the virus and died from it could Floyd be charged with reckless homicide?
> I mean, shouldn`t he be self-quarantining?
>

The reports I've read is that Floyd was asymptomatic. That means he
contracted the virus but did not get sick. We are still learning the
nuances of this disease but the early studies seem to indicate that
asymptomatic people are not contagious. They have the virus inside their
body but it is dead and not transferable. Even if Floyd was contagious, if
infecting another person is a crime, how many people have become criminals
in the last six months?

> > If I had to render a judgement based on what has been made public, I would
> > rule that Chauvin is guilty of a reckless homicide which would be first
> > degree manslaughter. Depending on what further mitigating or aggravating
> > circumstances come to light, I could be persuaded it was simply a
> > negligent act and there for second degree or that the Chauvin is guilty of
> > Murder 3. I think it is real stretct to call it Murder 2 which requires
> > proof that Chauvin intended to kill Floyd but maybe the AG knows something
> > we don't know.
>
> Floyd`s brother is calling murder one and the death penalty. He is
> setting it up for failure, which will ensure more rioting.
>

I don't think Minnesota has a death penalty and it would be absurd to
think this was premeditated. If I was Floyd's brother, I might want him
dead too but there is no way for that to happen within the law.

> Anyway, I just wrote this over in the Nuthouse, and I would be surprised
> if what I laid out isn`t the tact the defense uses...
>
> "I`ll tell you the truth, even though I know you can`t handle it. George
> Floyd died from a heart attack. Shortness of breath is a sign of a heart
> attack, and Floyd was saying he couldn`t breath long before Chauvin`s knee
> was on his neck. So if the heart attack started before Chauvin`s knee was
> on his neck, and Floyd died of a heart attack, the Chauvin didn`t cause
> the heart attack that killed Floyd. You following me so far, because it is
> going to get even more tricky, and I don`t want to lose you. Now when they
> tried to put Floyd in the patrol car, he claimed he was claustrophobic. It
> is quite likely going to be that Chauvin`s defense will be that he thought
> Floyd was having a panic attack, due to his fear of being put into the
> patrol due to claustrophobia that Floyd claimed to suffer from. It is also
> quite likely that police are trained to keep a person who is having a
> panic attack immobile (hence four cops pinning him). I looked at the
> autopsy and saw that there is no mention of any bruising on Floyd`s neck,
> I don`t think it can be shown that Chauvin ever had serious pressure on
> Floyd`s neck. I know you will disregard this in favor of the false
> narratives you have been fed and what you want to believe, but when it
> plays out like this in court remember you heard it here first."
>
> [Not a direct quote, I cleaned it up some]

Even if Floyd was having a heart attack, which is far from being
established, the act of putting a knee on his neck and leaving it there
are almost 9 minutes was both negligent and reckless. If a person tells
you they can't breathe, common sense alone should tell you to take your
damn knee off his throat. The fact he kept it there even after being told
Floyd had no pulse raises this to the level of a reckless homicide in my
mind.

No, it the prosecution can show Chauvin's actions contributed to Floyd's
demise, Chauvin is culpable. 2/3 of heart attacks are no fatal. Let's go
back to one of my earlier analogies. Suppose that guy I saw standing on
the edge of the cliff had slipped and was hanging on to the edge of the
precipice by his fingers. Instead of helping him up, I stamp on his
fingers causing him to lose his grip and fall to his death. Would it be
much of a defense to argue that it is possible he would have fallen
anyway. That is essentially what Chauvin did if indeed Floyd was having a
heart attack.

> > I would say Chauvin was guilty of a homicide
> > that was both negligent and reckless. 2/3 of heart attack victims survive.
>
> And one third don`t. Which is why I said earlier that Floyd might have
> died regardless of what the cops did or did not do.
>

And that poor guy hanging on to the edge of the cliff might have fallen
anyway even if I didn't stamp on his fingers.

> > We will never know what the outcome would have been had Chauvin not knelt
> > on Floyd's throat but if Chauvin acted in a way that contributed to
> > Floyd's death, he is guilty of a homicide.
> >
> > I don't know if you saw the movie Road to Perdition. I know it is a work
> > of fiction but will illustrate a hypothetical. Jude Law plaid a crime

Plaid? I that anything like "played", John?

> > scene photographer who was called to the scene of a knife homicide. The
> > cops had finished their work and left Law alone with the body which was
> > laying on the floor with a knife in the heart. As Law was setting up to
> > take his pictures, the victim suddenly came to life and started to moan.
> > Law proceeded to smother him.
> >
> > Event though the victim probably would have died anyway, Law clearly
> > committed a homicide. Floyd to might have died anyway. We'll never know
> > but Chauvin contributed to his death by kneeling on his throat.
>
> Assuming what you need to show. No bruising of the neck shown in the
> autopsy.
>

Not being a forensic pathologist, I have no idea how significant that is.
If it is significant, I'm sure Chauvin's defense team will bring that to
the attention of the jury and the prosecution will need a rebuttal witness
to explain why that does not matter.

> > > > > > For the sake of
> > > > > > argument, let's say Floyd was having a heart attack before Chauvin knelt
> > > > > > on his neck. Kneeling on somebody's neck who is experiencing a medical
> > > > > > emergency is the height of negligence which would make the homicide
> > > > > > criminal.
> > > > >
> > > > > If Floyd died of a heart attack, and the heart attack started before the
> > > > > knee was on his neck then the knee of the neck wasn`t the cause of the
> > > > > heart attack.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > If Chauvin put a knee on Floyd's neck when he should have been calling for
> > > > medical assistance, that would be the height of criminal negligence.
> > >
> > > I never said he was blameless. But proving that it was Chauvin that
> > > ended his life rather than a heart attack that had already started is
> > > going to be problematic.
> > >
> >
> > I don't see it as at all problematic. Even if Chauvin's act only hastened
> > Floyd's death by two minutes, he is culpable for Floyd's death.
>
> How could that be ascertained?
>

The medical examiner will explain that to the jury better than I could.

I don't have to. The prosecutor does.

First of all that argument assumes I am arguing it was intentional. I have
said I don't believe it was. Since Ellison has opted to raise the charge
to Murder 2, he will have to show it was intentional. If, for the sake of
argument Chauvin was trying to kill Floyd in broad daylight, kneeling on
his throat would be a subtle way of doing it. He could claim afterward he
was just trying to restrain Floyd.

> > > >He apparently is privy to evidence that
> > > > I am not.
> > >
> > > He is probably aware of political pressure that you aren`t aware of.
> > >
> >
> > I'm well aware of the fact that politics is driving these decisions. I
> > think Murder 2 is a bridge too far. At most it is Murder 3 and maybe just
> > manslaughter.
> >
> > > > I believe at the very least Chauvin's actions were negligent and
> > > > probably rose to the level of recklessness. He seemed to have no regard
> > > > for the health of Floyd.
> > >
> > > I agree. But if heart attack is the cause of death, and no wrongdoing by
> > > Chauvin caused Floyd to have that heart attack, then blaming Chauvin for
> > > Floyd`s death is problematic.
> > >
> >
> > That isn't true. Floyd might have survived the heart attack had it not
> > been for Chauvin's recklessness. We can't assume Floyd would have died.
>
> We can`t assume Chauvin`s knee played a role in Floyd`s death.
>

Again, that will be for the medical examiner and the prosecutor to
convince the jury of.

I had someplace to go and was running out of time. This exchange has
gotten rather long winded. I'm looking at the first one as I type this.
What is the point? That some cops are really nice guys. Not in dispute.

[Bud]

Really?

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/7/20-1595_article

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/7/20-1595_article#:~:text=Recent%20epidemiologic%2C%20virologic%2C,symptoms%20never%20develop).

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMe2009758

>They have the virus inside their
> body but it is dead and not transferable. Even if Floyd was contagious, if
> infecting another person is a crime, how many people have become criminals
> in the last six months?

If he knew he was infected then he put the people around him at risk.
Wouldn`t that be reckless endangerment?

Might have nothing to do with the heart attack.

> If a person tells
> you they can't breathe, common sense alone should tell you to take your
> damn knee off his throat.

Perhaps since he had no pressure on Floyd`s neck he knew there was no
connection between the two things.

> The fact he kept it there even after being told
> Floyd had no pulse raises this to the level of a reckless homicide in my
> mind.

Easy to miss a pulse.

If the defense can raise the possibility that the heart attack started
before Chauvin`s knee was on his neck, then Chauvin isn`t culpable.

You keep thinking the knee is killing Floyd when it is his heart that is
killing him.

>2/3 of heart attacks are no fatal. Let's go
> back to one of my earlier analogies. Suppose that guy I saw standing on
> the edge of the cliff had slipped and was hanging on to the edge of the
> precipice by his fingers. Instead of helping him up, I stamp on his
> fingers causing him to lose his grip and fall to his death. Would it be
> much of a defense to argue that it is possible he would have fallen
> anyway. That is essentially what Chauvin did if indeed Floyd was having a
> heart attack.

How can you show that the heart attack that started while a lawful
arrest was being made would not have continued until it took his life?

> > > I would say Chauvin was guilty of a homicide
> > > that was both negligent and reckless. 2/3 of heart attack victims survive.
> >
> > And one third don`t. Which is why I said earlier that Floyd might have
> > died regardless of what the cops did or did not do.
> >
>
> And that poor guy hanging on to the edge of the cliff might have fallen
> anyway even if I didn't stamp on his fingers.

Doesn`t work, there is a direct causation. In the event we are examining
there is only an assumed causation. You assumed you understood what you
were looking at, but things are not always as they appear.

A better analogy might be that a mountaineering guide is hired to take
someone mountaineering. The person slips, and is hanging on the side of a
cliff, pleading for help. The guide renders no help, and the person
plummets to their death. Is the guide culpable for the death? If so, how
much?

> > > We will never know what the outcome would have been had Chauvin not knelt
> > > on Floyd's throat but if Chauvin acted in a way that contributed to
> > > Floyd's death, he is guilty of a homicide.
> > >
> > > I don't know if you saw the movie Road to Perdition. I know it is a work
> > > of fiction but will illustrate a hypothetical. Jude Law plaid a crime
>
> Plaid? I that anything like "played", John?
>
>
> > > scene photographer who was called to the scene of a knife homicide. The
> > > cops had finished their work and left Law alone with the body which was
> > > laying on the floor with a knife in the heart. As Law was setting up to
> > > take his pictures, the victim suddenly came to life and started to moan.
> > > Law proceeded to smother him.
> > >
> > > Event though the victim probably would have died anyway, Law clearly
> > > committed a homicide. Floyd to might have died anyway. We'll never know
> > > but Chauvin contributed to his death by kneeling on his throat.
> >
> > Assuming what you need to show. No bruising of the neck shown in the
> > autopsy.
> >
>
> Not being a forensic pathologist, I have no idea how significant that is.
> If it is significant, I'm sure Chauvin's defense team will bring that to
> the attention of the jury and the prosecution will need a rebuttal witness
> to explain why that does not matter.

Yes. But to a layman like myself, I would expect bruising to accompany a
lot of pressure for nine minutes.

> > > > > > > For the sake of
> > > > > > > argument, let's say Floyd was having a heart attack before Chauvin knelt
> > > > > > > on his neck. Kneeling on somebody's neck who is experiencing a medical
> > > > > > > emergency is the height of negligence which would make the homicide
> > > > > > > criminal.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If Floyd died of a heart attack, and the heart attack started before the
> > > > > > knee was on his neck then the knee of the neck wasn`t the cause of the
> > > > > > heart attack.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > If Chauvin put a knee on Floyd's neck when he should have been calling for
> > > > > medical assistance, that would be the height of criminal negligence.
> > > >
> > > > I never said he was blameless. But proving that it was Chauvin that
> > > > ended his life rather than a heart attack that had already started is
> > > > going to be problematic.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I don't see it as at all problematic. Even if Chauvin's act only hastened
> > > Floyd's death by two minutes, he is culpable for Floyd's death.
> >
> > How could that be ascertained?
> >
>
> The medical examiner will explain that to the jury better than I could.

I`d like to see him try.

The prosecutor didn`t write what I responded to, you did.

[jecorb...@yahoo.com]

I should have been a bit clearer. People who were asymptomatic and had the
virus run it's course have developed the antibodies. These people have
dead virus cells in the system. The tests show that these people are not
prone to reinfection nor are that contagious at that point. If Floyd was
asymptomatic he probably wouldn't have known he was infected, so even if
he was contagious, he certainly would not have been criminally liable. Of
course this is all moot in regard to Chauvin's actions because Chauvin
would not have known whether Floyd was Covid-19 positive so that wouldn't
have in anyway been a mitigating factor.

Chauvin was told he didn't have a pulse and should have acted on that
information. Instead he kept his knee on Floyd's throat for another 3
minutes. That is enough to raise this from a negligent homicide to a
reckless one. AG Ellison thinks it is enough to show intent to kill. I
think he will have to eat his Wheaties to make that one stick.

If that were true, if a person is having a heart attack, I can then
smother him and claim it was the heart attack that killed him. Does that
make sense to you?

> You keep thinking the knee is killing Floyd when it is his heart that is
> killing him.
>

First of all, you haven't established Floyd was having a heart attack. You
are guessing. Second, even if he was, that doesn't relieve Chauvin of
accountability. Placing a knee on the throat of a man having a heart
attack is both negligent and reckless.

> >2/3 of heart attacks are no fatal. Let's go
> > back to one of my earlier analogies. Suppose that guy I saw standing on
> > the edge of the cliff had slipped and was hanging on to the edge of the
> > precipice by his fingers. Instead of helping him up, I stamp on his
> > fingers causing him to lose his grip and fall to his death. Would it be
> > much of a defense to argue that it is possible he would have fallen
> > anyway. That is essentially what Chauvin did if indeed Floyd was having a
> > heart attack.
>
> How can you show that the heart attack that started while a lawful
> arrest was being made would not have continued until it took his life?
>

How can you show that the guy hanging on the edge of a cliff wouldn't have
fallen even if I hadn't stomped on his fingers. Your argument makes no
sense.

> > > > I would say Chauvin was guilty of a homicide
> > > > that was both negligent and reckless. 2/3 of heart attack victims survive.
> > >
> > > And one third don`t. Which is why I said earlier that Floyd might have
> > > died regardless of what the cops did or did not do.
> > >
> >
> > And that poor guy hanging on to the edge of the cliff might have fallen
> > anyway even if I didn't stamp on his fingers.
>
> Doesn`t work, there is a direct causation. In the event we are examining
> there is only an assumed causation. You assumed you understood what you
> were looking at, but things are not always as they appear.
>

You are assuming a heart attack was in progress.

> A better analogy might be that a mountaineering guide is hired to take
> someone mountaineering. The person slips, and is hanging on the side of a
> cliff, pleading for help. The guide renders no help, and the person
> plummets to their death. Is the guide culpable for the death? If so, how
> much?
>

That is an act of omission. Chauvin's was an act of commission. Like me
stomping on the fingers of the guy hanging from the cliff.

> > > > We will never know what the outcome would have been had Chauvin not knelt
> > > > on Floyd's throat but if Chauvin acted in a way that contributed to
> > > > Floyd's death, he is guilty of a homicide.
> > > >
> > > > I don't know if you saw the movie Road to Perdition. I know it is a work
> > > > of fiction but will illustrate a hypothetical. Jude Law plaid a crime
> >
> > Plaid? I that anything like "played", John?
> >
> >
> > > > scene photographer who was called to the scene of a knife homicide. The
> > > > cops had finished their work and left Law alone with the body which was
> > > > laying on the floor with a knife in the heart. As Law was setting up to
> > > > take his pictures, the victim suddenly came to life and started to moan.
> > > > Law proceeded to smother him.
> > > >
> > > > Event though the victim probably would have died anyway, Law clearly
> > > > committed a homicide. Floyd to might have died anyway. We'll never know
> > > > but Chauvin contributed to his death by kneeling on his throat.
> > >
> > > Assuming what you need to show. No bruising of the neck shown in the
> > > autopsy.
> > >
> >
> > Not being a forensic pathologist, I have no idea how significant that is.
> > If it is significant, I'm sure Chauvin's defense team will bring that to
> > the attention of the jury and the prosecution will need a rebuttal witness
> > to explain why that does not matter.
>
> Yes. But to a layman like myself, I would expect bruising to accompany a
> lot of pressure for nine minutes.
>

That's above my pay grade to determine.

> > > > > > > > For the sake of
> > > > > > > > argument, let's say Floyd was having a heart attack before Chauvin knelt
> > > > > > > > on his neck. Kneeling on somebody's neck who is experiencing a medical
> > > > > > > > emergency is the height of negligence which would make the homicide
> > > > > > > > criminal.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If Floyd died of a heart attack, and the heart attack started before the
> > > > > > > knee was on his neck then the knee of the neck wasn`t the cause of the
> > > > > > > heart attack.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If Chauvin put a knee on Floyd's neck when he should have been calling for
> > > > > > medical assistance, that would be the height of criminal negligence.
> > > > >
> > > > > I never said he was blameless. But proving that it was Chauvin that
> > > > > ended his life rather than a heart attack that had already started is
> > > > > going to be problematic.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > I don't see it as at all problematic. Even if Chauvin's act only hastened
> > > > Floyd's death by two minutes, he is culpable for Floyd's death.
> > >
> > > How could that be ascertained?
> > >
> >
> > The medical examiner will explain that to the jury better than I could.
>
> I`d like to see him try.
>

He will.

I'm perfectly willing to let the process run its course. If it works, I
have little doubt Chauvin will end up serving time for a reprehensible
act.

[Bud]

You are still assuming what you haven`t shown, that it was the knee that
did him in and not the heart attack.

> > You keep thinking the knee is killing Floyd when it is his heart that is
> > killing him.
> >
>
> First of all, you haven't established Floyd was having a heart attack.

I know that is what he died of.

> You
> are guessing.

I`m saying he died of a heart attack, and the signs of that heart attack
manifested themselves before Chauvin`s knee was on Floyd`s neck.

>Second, even if he was, that doesn't relieve Chauvin of
> accountability. Placing a knee on the throat of a man having a heart
> attack is both negligent and reckless.

Only if you can show that knee had adverse effects. Poundwise, how much
pressure did Chauvin`s knee exert on Floyd`s neck? Poundwise, how much
pressure is needed to cut off the blood or oxygen Floyd required? Did the
former exceed the latter? Can you prove it?

> > >2/3 of heart attacks are no fatal. Let's go
> > > back to one of my earlier analogies. Suppose that guy I saw standing on
> > > the edge of the cliff had slipped and was hanging on to the edge of the
> > > precipice by his fingers. Instead of helping him up, I stamp on his
> > > fingers causing him to lose his grip and fall to his death. Would it be
> > > much of a defense to argue that it is possible he would have fallen
> > > anyway. That is essentially what Chauvin did if indeed Floyd was having a
> > > heart attack.
> >
> > How can you show that the heart attack that started while a lawful
> > arrest was being made would not have continued until it took his life?
> >
>
> How can you show that the guy hanging on the edge of a cliff wouldn't have
> fallen even if I hadn't stomped on his fingers. Your argument makes no
> sense.

Neither does your analogy, it assumes what you haven`t shown in Floyd`s
case, willful murder.

> > > > > I would say Chauvin was guilty of a homicide
> > > > > that was both negligent and reckless. 2/3 of heart attack victims survive.
> > > >
> > > > And one third don`t. Which is why I said earlier that Floyd might have
> > > > died regardless of what the cops did or did not do.
> > > >
> > >
> > > And that poor guy hanging on to the edge of the cliff might have fallen
> > > anyway even if I didn't stamp on his fingers.
> >
> > Doesn`t work, there is a direct causation. In the event we are examining
> > there is only an assumed causation. You assumed you understood what you
> > were looking at, but things are not always as they appear.
> >
>
> You are assuming a heart attack was in progress.

The signs are there. Why is it only significant that he said "I can`t
breath" when Chauvin`s knee is on him but not before?

> > A better analogy might be that a mountaineering guide is hired to take
> > someone mountaineering. The person slips, and is hanging on the side of a
> > cliff, pleading for help. The guide renders no help, and the person
> > plummets to their death. Is the guide culpable for the death? If so, how
> > much?
> >
>
> That is an act of omission.

Ok. Is the guide culpable?

> Chauvin's was an act of commission.

Again, you assume what you haven`t shown. The only thing you can show is
that he *didn`t* help him.

You`d find it significant if there was bruising.

> > > > > > > > > For the sake of
> > > > > > > > > argument, let's say Floyd was having a heart attack before Chauvin knelt
> > > > > > > > > on his neck. Kneeling on somebody's neck who is experiencing a medical
> > > > > > > > > emergency is the height of negligence which would make the homicide
> > > > > > > > > criminal.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If Floyd died of a heart attack, and the heart attack started before the
> > > > > > > > knee was on his neck then the knee of the neck wasn`t the cause of the
> > > > > > > > heart attack.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If Chauvin put a knee on Floyd's neck when he should have been calling for
> > > > > > > medical assistance, that would be the height of criminal negligence.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I never said he was blameless. But proving that it was Chauvin that
> > > > > > ended his life rather than a heart attack that had already started is
> > > > > > going to be problematic.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't see it as at all problematic. Even if Chauvin's act only hastened
> > > > > Floyd's death by two minutes, he is culpable for Floyd's death.
> > > >
> > > > How could that be ascertained?
> > > >
> > >
> > > The medical examiner will explain that to the jury better than I could.
> >
> > I`d like to see him try.
> >
>
> He will.

Good luck with that. Maybe if Floyd was hooked up to an EKG...

I suppose he will do time. And I expect the time he does will have more
to do with the emotionalism of the event than the facts.

[jecorb...@yahoo.com]

No, the guy deserves time. Serious time. Killer cops are no better than
cop killers.

[Bud]

Again, you are assuming what you haven`t shown.

And you are avoiding all the points I made and are falling back on the
passive aggressive "We`ll have to wait to see what the courts say", so
I`ll chalk this up as a win.

[Anthony Marsh]

You would never get away with anything "first." You would have to POVE
that he was planning it before he got there.

>>>> squad 320 from the driver???s side. Mr. Floyd did not voluntarily

[jecorb...@yahoo.com]

On Saturday, June 6, 2020 at 4:55:43 PM UTC-4, Anthony Marsh wrote:
> >
> > If I had to render a judgement based on what has been made public, I would
> > rule that Chauvin is guilty of a reckless homicide which would be first
> > degree manslaughter. Depending on what further mitigating or aggravating
>
> You would never get away with anything "first." You would have to POVE
> that he was planning it before he got there.

If Chauvin was planning to do this before he got there, that would make it
Murder 1. I've seen no evidence of that. I think even Murder 2 is a
stretch as it will require proof that Chauvin intended to kill Floyd even
if he did it without premeditation.