Who Did the Body Modification on JFK and the 2 Caskets All from Testimony

[mainframetech]

If you've been an LNer for some time, the odds of you changing because
of facts you learned now are small, but I'll do what I can. Remember that
ALL of what I'm saying can be found in the testimony of the people I
mention, from WC, HSCA or ARRB. Mostly ARRB. I'm concerned that you
begin with excuses for anything that Tom Robinson might say. His
co-worker Van Hoesen was not a good subject for questioning, the ARRB
people said that about him, but Robinson was very clear in his statements
and the things he remembered. When he didn't remember, he didn't make
anything up, he simply said he didn't remember.

The discrepancy is much more than Finck being told by Humes that he
didn't do any sawing (Finck's letter to his boss), and then Finck saying
he MIGHT have done sawing. Two other people saw him doing it. But forget
all that, it's small potatoes.

Going through this description can be checked by using any name you
find here and looking it up in testimony to verify that it was said.
Links follow to help find the information in testimony.

From reading testimony, I found that the body of JFK left Parkland with
NO damage to the top of head, and a 'large hole' in the BOH, attested to
by 'over 39+' people as you've seen in another thread. The body was at
that time in a Bronze casket and was taken in Air Force 1 to Andrews Air
Force Base. A general Wehle and his aide, Richard Lipsey (junior officer)
were assigned to fool the media by putting the body into a standard
shipping casket, and taking it to the Bethesda morgue that way, leaving
the empty Bronze casket for the media and the Kennedy party to follow.

When Wehle and Lipsey got to the airfield, they had the body moved out
of the Bronze casket and placed into a simple shipping casket. The
shipping casket and an honor guard were taken by 2 helicopters to Bethesda
facility, which got them there much faster than the Bronze casket, which
went by another hearse and more slowly.

The first hearse arrived at Bethesda at the back door of the morgue at
6:35pm the time recorded by Marine Sgt. Roger Boyajian's after action
report, which is available online. A fellow named Dennis David from the
facility was called earlier and was waiting with a small troop of sailors
who carried the simple shipping casket in to the morgue area. He was
asked specifically what type of casket was used to carry JFK, and he
replied that it was s "simple shipping casket" that he had seen many of in
Vietnam.

Next a fellow name Edward Reed (X-ray technician) was asked to help get
the body out of the shipping casket and put it on the table. He was asked
to identify JFK, which he did. At that point he did some X-rays and
waited in the gallery that was near the autopsy table. He watched as
Humes and Boswell began working on the head of the body. The removal of
the brain is assigned to a certain job and that night the job was supposed
to be done by Paul O'Connor. Instead, Humes and Boswell began the job,
which was unheard of at Bethesda, that they would step in and do menial
tasks like that.

Ed Reed saw them use a scalpel to cut over the crown of the head from
one ear to the other. (where there would later be a large missing piece of
skull). The scalp was reflected back and forwards and Reed saw them begin
to use a bone saw to start cutting around the skull at the forehead first.
At that point Humes kicked Reed and the other X-ray technician (Jerrol
Custer) out of the autopsy room. Remember that before this the top of the
head was undamaged and there was only a small triangular piece of bone
flopping forward from the right temple. As well, it was early yet and no
one had arrived to view the process, so the gallery was empty.

It wasn't planned, but Tom Robinson got there early and he came in and
saw them working on the body. He sat in the front row and watched as they
damaged the top of the head and removed the brain. He witnessed them
using the saw to aid them. Later he would be asked to detail the wounds
to the head, and he would list the original wounds as the 'large hole' in
the BOH (which he drew, and the picture is online), the small triangular
piece at the temple, and a small .25 inch hole just in the hairline on the
right forehead, probably the real entry wound. He made a clear
distinction between these original wounds and the damage done by the
prosectors.

At the 'official' time for the autopsy at 8:00pm, with the gallery full
of people, Paul O'Connor began his normal job and helped in opening a
casket and getting the body out (yep, the body was now back in a casket!!)
and putting it on the table. When he began the process of removing the
brain, he saw that there was NO brain. He was amazed, but decided that a
bullet had blown out most of the brains. Humes and Boswell who had removed
the brain with no one watching said nothing to O'Connor and let him wonder
where the brain went. When O'Connor backed off, Humes looked at the body
and made a semi-humorous comment 'had anyone done any surgery on the
body?' Of course, it had been HIM that ha done the work on the body, but
it was apparently to be kept secret. Not a word to O'Connor in his
wonderment, not a word to anyone else that the brain had been taken out
already in private. When they spoke of the autopsy, the removal was
spoken of as if they had done it as part of the 'official' autopsy, but it
had been done long before anyone got there.

At about 7:17pm (report of Sibert & O'Neill) there was the arrival of
the second hearse and the Kennedy party at the front main entrance. They
came in and were seen to go directly to the elevator and up to the
executive suite on the 17th floor. Then the hearse they were with (Bronze
casket) was driven around to the back of the facility and the casket was
loaded in to the morgue cooler area for storage.

All the above is from testimony. Now my own comments on what I read.
I believe the plan to make 2 caskets and hearses and get one of the
hearses to Bethesda much sooner than the other, was hatched while the body
was in transit in AF1. The intent was to give the prosectors time to
modify the body to fit the scenario they wanted to push from before the
murder. The reason given was to fake out the media, but when the body
arrived at Bethesda, Humes and Boswell acted very much like they were
doing something secret, while saying they were doing all normal things.


Here are some of the links needed to verify some of this stuff:

ARRB Testimony of Tom Robinson:
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=711

ARRB Drawing of JFK head and wounds by Robinson:
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=350&relPageId=3 (click NEXT for other drawing)

ARRB testimony of Edward Reed (X-ray Tech):
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=794

ARRB testimony of Dennis David:
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=708

ARRB testimony of Richard Lipsey (audio file and comment):
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/HSCA_Medical_Interviews

Richard Lipsey interview report:
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=349

Richard Lipsey transcript (slightly modified to save space):
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/med_testimony/Lipsey_1-18-78/HSCA-Lipsey.htm

Roger Boyajian after action report:
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/md236/pages/md236_0005a.gif

Paul O'Connor technologist at Bethesda, testifies at Mock Trial:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDYNMlXD59o

[KING ARTHUR]

I believe it was Oliver Stone's makeup artist who did the body
modification or B F Skinner.

[OHLeeRedux]

There was one casket -- the bronze casket supplied by O'Neal in Dallas.
JFK's body was placed in that casket, taken to AF1 at Love Field, flown to
Andrews and driven to Bethesda. The autopsy was done and documented. All
the shots came from behind.

The facts don't leave much room for storytelling, but that's life. You
should take up fiction writing. A ghost story with "shipping caskets" and
missing brains would be a good start.

[Lanny]

On Tuesday, March 25, 2014 10:27:42 PM UTC-4, mainframetech wrote:

> When Wehle and Lipsey got to the airfield, they had the body moved out
>
> of the Bronze casket and placed into a simple shipping casket.

Stop right here.

Nothing you said BEFORE this sentence and nothing you said AFTER this
sentence has any relevance or credibility unless you present credible
EVIDENCE that the alleged body switch actually happened.

NO ONE, least of all Wehle and Lipsey, ever said such a body switch took
place and they certainly never admitted to ordering it themselves.

Among the group including Mrs. Kennedy, Larry O'Brien, Dave Powers,
Admiral Burkley, and General McHugh, one or more of these people were with
the casket from the moment it was placed on board Air Force One and
strapped to the aircraft floor with metal bands.

At the time Air Force One taxied to a stop, ALL of those people were with
the casket along with members of the Secret Service moving into position
to protect Mrs. Kennedy. They were joined very quickly by Robert Kennedy
who had entered the plane from the front starboard door.

Convince us how the body was switched from one casket to another in the
presence of JFK's widow, his brother, and his loyal staff -- not how it
MIGHT have been switched, but how it was actually switched by virtue of
those who ACTUALLY SAW IT OCCUR OR WERE INVOLVED. Provide the actual
evidence of your categorically ABSURD allegation.

The testimony of Ed Reed and Paul O'Connor DO NOT stand as evidence that a
body switch took place because their testimony is directly contradicted by
other people at the autopsy who gave sworn testimony that they saw the
body removed from the ornamental Dallas casket and/or that the body of JFK
HAD NOT been placed in a body bag. These people included John Stringer,
Jerrol Custer, John O'Neill and James Sibert. Read the sworn ARRB
depositions of these people and then tell us why they are less credible
than Reed or O'Connor.

[mainframetech]

False. You obviously have little or no knowledge of the testimony of
the involved people. How you can even try to make an argument on the
subject, I don't know. If there is ANY item I mentioned in the detail
that you don't believe was said in sworn te4stimony by anyone mentioned,
let me know and I'll lead you to it by the hand and show it to you.

Chris

[mainframetech]

>
>
> I believe it was Oliver Stone's makeup artist who did the body
>
> modification or B F Skinner.

You might try using a single name, some may take your changing and
hiding yourself from them as rudeness. The typical attempt at ridicule
fails in my eyes as well.

Chris

[Anthony Marsh]

On 3/26/2014 12:07 AM, OHLeeRedux wrote:
> There was one casket -- the bronze casket supplied by O'Neal in Dallas.
> JFK's body was placed in that casket, taken to AF1 at Love Field, flown to
> Andrews and driven to Bethesda. The autopsy was done and documented. All
> the shots came from behind.
>

There were TWO caskets. The bronze casket JFK was put in at Parkland. But
they had to break off the handles to get it into the plane. So on the way
back they ordered a brand new Mahogany casket. That is what caused the
confusion about 2 different caskets arriving at Bethesda.

> The facts don't leave much room for storytelling, but that's life. You
> should take up fiction writing. A ghost story with "shipping caskets" and
> missing brains would be a good start.
>

You don't have the facts. You make up things from your imagination.

[SIR CUMFERENCE]

STOP RIGHT THERE CHRIS.

[OHLeeRedux]

mainframetech

You're right. I think he should make BODY SNATCHER his permanent name.

[mainframetech]

Prove to me that one of the names you mention was with the casket EVERY
second from the time the body was in it (if it was in it). And that EVERY
one of them NEVER stepped away to the bathroom or anywhere for even a
second, or lied about being in the presence of the casket EVERY second.


Here's the ARRB summary of testimony of Dennis David at about 6:40pm at
the Bethesda morgue room:

He said it was a SIMPLE GRAY SHIPPING CASKET such as he frequently saw
used later during the Vietnam war. His group of sailors took the casket
into the anteroom directly adjacent to the morgue. After bringing in the
shipping casket to the morgue area, he went out near the front entrance
and saw after a while the entrance of the Kennedy party. Jackie and
Robert and others, who came in and went to the elevator and went up to the
17th floor to the executive suite. [my caps]

This information can be found here:
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=67217


Here's the sworn testimony of Edward Reed for the ARRB. This is about
6:35pm, long before the 'official' autopsy at 8:00pm:

Q: After you -You took the casket into the
morgue; is that correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: What did you do when it arrived in the
morgue?
A: Someone opened it up. We all stood back. Someone opened it up,
and We were allowed to look into the casket. From
our vantage point, We were able to see into the
casket.
Q: Was it - was the casket on the floor?
A: Yes, it was.
Q: Do you recall now who opened the casket?
A: No, I don't.
Q: After the casket was opened, what did you
see?
A: I was able to look in. and I saw President
Kennedy without - completely nude in a plastic bag.


Here is a link to that exact page in the testimony:
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/arrb/medical_testimony/pdf/Reed_10-21-97.pdf

From an article entitled "STRANGE GH: Coopersville man says 2 JFK caskets
arrived at Bethesda"

"There were two ambulances that came in," Muma recalled. "One was
lighted. It came up to the front door. The second one they kept dark and
it went around to the back. That was the one that had Kennedy in it. It
was common knowledge that there were two caskets."

Full story here: http://www.grandhaventribune.com/article/210386


For any questions, see me. Everything above is from official records or
sworn testimony.

So if you were sensible and reviewed ALL the information presented
above, you might now see what had been done.

Chris

[Anthony Marsh]

You know where you can shove your cherry picked testimony. Look at the
hard evidence. Not stories from kooks. Most of the things you cite are
only rumors not testimony.

[mainframetech]

On Wednesday, March 26, 2014 1:11:56 PM UTC-4, Lanny wrote:

Stop right there!

Ed Reed, who helped carry in the shipping casket, SAW JFK in the casket
when they opened it up and put him on the table for Humes and Boswell.

See above for the testimony. Do you think that any SS or FBI agents
that promised that they would follow the body every second wanted to admit
on the record that they had been fooled and the body wasn't in the Bronze
casket that they followed all the way from the airport?

However, in Richard Lipsey's statements he makes it clear that there was
a 'Decoy' hearse meaning there were 2 hearses ('ambulances' in some
reports)and that means that one of them had the body and one didn't.
Further testimony from Ed Reed and Dennis David make it clear that the
"simple gray shipping casket" was the one with JFK's body in it. As well,
a guy name Rebentisch also saw who was in the shipping casket, and he is
named in the news article above.

Donald Rebentisch's story is shown here:
https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?11761-The-Head-Wounds-Revisited/page6

Rebentisch stated that there were 2 caskets and the one that went to the
back door first was the one with the body (shipping casket). The other
went to the front entrance (with the motorcade and Kennedy party).

Simple, but you have to read all the testimony and decide for
yourselves how we were all fooled by Lipsey's decoy.

Chris

[OHLeeRedux]

Anthony Marsh

On 3/26/2014 12:07 AM, OHLeeRedux wrote:
> There was one casket -- the bronze casket supplied by O'Neal in Dallas.
> JFK's body was placed in that casket, taken to AF1 at Love Field, flown to
> Andrews and driven to Bethesda. The autopsy was done and documented. All
> the shots came from behind.
>

There were TWO caskets. The bronze casket JFK was put in at Parkland. But
they had to break off the handles to get it into the plane. So on the way
back they ordered a brand new Mahogany casket. That is what caused the
confusion about 2 different caskets arriving at Bethesda.

> The facts don't leave much room for storytelling, but that's life. You
> should take up fiction writing. A ghost story with "shipping caskets" and
> missing brains would be a good start.
>

You don't have the facts. You make up things from your imagination.

The mahogany casket wasn't ordered until they got back to Washington.
O'Donnell and Powers went to Gawler's and picked it out while the autopsy
was being done. I'm talking about the imaginary "shipping casket" that the
Body Snatcher theorists claim JFK was placed in between Dallas and
Washington.

Try to keep up, Anthony. It's not rocket science.

[OHLeeRedux]

mainframetech
- show quoted text -

Prove to me that one of the names you mention was with the casket EVERY
second from the time the body was in it (if it was in it). And that EVERY
one of them NEVER stepped away to the bathroom or anywhere for even a
second, or lied about being in the presence of the casket EVERY second.

So you think that it only takes a second to move a body from one casket to
another? I guess that's what you need to believe once you step over the
line into body snatching fantasies.

Here's the ARRB summary of testimony of Dennis David at about 6:40pm at
the Bethesda morgue room:

He said it was a SIMPLE GRAY SHIPPING CASKET such as he frequently saw
used later during the Vietnam war. His group of sailors took the casket
into the anteroom directly adjacent to the morgue. After bringing in the
shipping casket to the morgue area, he went out near the front entrance
and saw after a while the entrance of the Kennedy party. Jackie and
Robert and others, who came in and went to the elevator and went up to the
17th floor to the executive suite. [my caps]

He was WRONG. There was no "shipping casket," at least involving JFK's
body. That fact was established long ago. You are beating a dead horse, a
horse that has been dead so long it isn't even good for glue.

[Lanny]

First things first. You have said that JFK's body was switched from the
Dallas casket to the plain shipping casket AFTER Air Force One landed at
Andrews AFB and obviously BEFORE the "now"-empty Dallas casket was taken
off the plane in full view of a nationwide TV audience.

The switch had to have happened on the ground because even YOU are smart
enough to realize it could not have happened in mid-air or even while the
plane was rolling to its parking spot in front of the TV lights.

You've also claimed that Wehle and/or Lipsey arranged the casket switch.
So prove it. Or at least provide some evidence that it actually took
place. When did Wehle or Lipsey give the order? Who did they give it to?

When did the switch actually take place? Where was Jackie Kennedy and the
other three or four people who were sitting with her and by the casket for
the whole flight and as the plane landed in Washington? No, they didn't
all go to the bathroom at the same time. Have you ever seen the size of a
bathroom on a jet aircraft? Get serious.

Until you can provide convincing evidence that the casket switch actually
took place and that the Dallas casket was empty when it came off the
plane, the hallucinations of Ed Reed and Paul O'Connor are just noise.
They mean nothing.

And the reason you cannot provide that evidence was because it never
happened. The body was never "stolen" or switched to a plain, stainless
steel shipping casket prior to its arrival at Bethesda.

[mainframetech]

Wrong again Redux. Check into Robinson's statements. They picked up
the mahogany casket BEFORE they came out to Bethesda and witnessesd the
autopsy. Go here for that information:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=711&relPageId=2


Another false statement is that there were 2 caskets. In actuality,
there were 3 caskets. The shipping casket, the Bronze Casket and the
mahogany casket. Here's a picture drawn by Paul O'Connor of the morgue
area where the autopsy was performed:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=732

For those that bother to look at evidence shown to them, you can see
the casket in the 'Cooler Room', and then a casket outlined in dark pen,
and then to the right the shipping casket, labeled as such. Note too that
this drawing shows us yet another witness to the shipping and that the
body was taken from the shipping casket and put on the table for autopsy.
After autopsy the body was moved to table #2 for embalming. The arrows
show that. The body was then taken and put in the mahogany casket brought
earlier by Gawler's workers.

It's amazing the amount of proof that can be waved in front of folks
and they can't see it or even contemplate it. We have shown witnesses to
the casket arriving earlier than the bronze casket and the Kennedy party,
shown witnesses to the body coming out of a simple shipping casket,
witnesses mentioning 'decoy' hearses, different arrival times for the
caskets, pictorial proof of 3 caskets...and yet some remain in their
cocoon of false information. Amazing.

Read the testimonies, figure out why Humes and Boswell began work on
the head long before the 'official' autopsy, and why they kicked out all
personnel from the autopsy room until the 8:00pm autopsy while they
worked, and were seen by 2 people to work on, and damage the top of the
head of JFK.

Chris

[mainframetech]

On Wednesday, March 26, 2014 11:29:30 PM UTC-4, OHLeeRedux wrote:
> mainframetech
>
> - show quoted text -
>
> Prove to me that one of the names you mention was with the casket EVERY
>
> second from the time the body was in it (if it was in it). And that EVERY
>
> one of them NEVER stepped away to the bathroom or anywhere for even a
>
> second, or lied about being in the presence of the casket EVERY second.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> So you think that it only takes a second to move a body from one casket to
>
> another? I guess that's what you need to believe once you step over the
>
> line into body snatching fantasies.
>

Oh C'mon...use your head. A bathroom break doesn't take a second
either. So far you've been unable to show that any of the people you
listed were in sight of the casket from the first moment in Parkland to
the autopsy table when they took the body out of the shipping casket as
per SWORN TESTIMONY, not guesses like you've been coming up with.

An example is that Jackie was hours away from a bathroom. Are you
saying that she never used the facilities all those hours from Parkland to
Bethesda, and that the picture showing her standing next to LBJ taking the
oath of office was faked? She was away from the casket, and others were
at some point too.

The proof is there that there were 2 caskets (actually 3 by the end of
the day), and the body was placed in the shipping casket, which they got
it out of at Bethesda. Since the shipping casket was seen, and the body
was seen being brought out of it, we KNOW there was not only a shipping
casket, but that the body was put into it at some time.

> Here's the ARRB summary of testimony of Dennis David at about 6:40pm at
>
> the Bethesda morgue room:
>
>
>
> He said it was a SIMPLE GRAY SHIPPING CASKET such as he frequently saw
>
> used later during the Vietnam war. His group of sailors took the casket
>
> into the anteroom directly adjacent to the morgue. After bringing in the
>
> shipping casket to the morgue area, he went out near the front entrance
>
> and saw after a while the entrance of the Kennedy party. Jackie and
>
> Robert and others, who came in and went to the elevator and went up to the
>
> 17th floor to the executive suite. [my caps]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> He was WRONG. There was no "shipping casket," at least involving JFK's
>
> body. That fact was established long ago. You are beating a dead horse, a
>
> horse that has been dead so long it isn't even good for glue.

Nope. You're WRONG. Saying that doesn't make it true, and though it
was said, a FACT wasn't established that there was only the one bronze
casket. The witnesses and their statements fit with each other and with
time. The reasons given for using the 'decoy' (Lipsey's word) are
reasonable. Multiple witnesses saw the shipping casket, and multiple
witnesses took the body of JFK out of the shipping casket and put it on
the autopsy table. Why are you blind to that information in sworn
testimony? Why can you not admit that witnesses saw the shipping casket
and the body of JFK in it? Strange!

Chris

[mainframetech]

Ah! Now we're trying to escape the proof by speaking of
"hallucinations"...:) Anything to get away from the evidence. That's
just another form of the typical LN howl of 'they lied' or they were all
mistaken'! Now it's they were all hallucinating...LOL!

I did NOT say that the switch had to happen AFTER AF1 landed. There
was little if any time to do it then.

I mention that a switch may have happened back at Parkland, because
there was a small opportunity to do it there, and someone may have thought
of the gimmick back then. They knew they had to steal the body and get it
into the hands of an autopsist that they could control, and not Rose, the
medical examiner of Dallas, who they knew he would find death from a shot
from the front, ruining the whole 'lone nut' scenario they had built up
over time. But Douglas Horne has a belief from his work that the switch
occurred before the plane took off, but after they closed it up to take
off. I don't know where his article is on it, but I saw it once, and I'm
sure it'll turn up soon. You see, barring "hallucinations" ::: chuckle
::: we know the switch occurred, and rather than pretend it didn't happen,
we can move on and try to determine where and when the switch happened.

And I have to correct you on this. The switch could have occurred
anytime from when the plane was buttoned up, to just before the Bronze
casket was taken off the plane with that special van-like lift. If you
look into it, you'll find that there was an awful lot of communication
with the ground from AF1 while they were flying, arranging (of all things)
to have a forklift ready on the STARBOARD side of the after part of the
plane. That part would be in shadow while everyone was looking at the
Bronze casket being lowered down to be taken away. It's true that a
helicopter wasn't mentioned as carrying the body to Bethesda, but then as
they said, they had arranged a 'decoy', as per Lipsey.

Why arrange helicopters to carry only personnel to Bethesda, and yet the
body arrived many minutes before the Kennedy party and motorcade of 3 or
more vehicles at the front entrance, with the Bronze casket? Because the
helicopters carried the shipping casket also to the Bethesda helipad and
decanted it to be taken to the morgue in advance of the Kennedy party.
This was to give 2 of the prosectors time to damage the body, which
remember, had NO damage to the top of the head leaving Parkland.

Marine Sergeant Roger Boyajian wrote up in his 'after action report'
(can be found online), that he and his group of marines brought in the
body from an ambulance at the rear loading dock at 6:35pm. There was no
one waiting in the morgue where the autopsy was to be done, because that
had been scheduled for 8:00pm that evening.

However, Ed Reed and Tom Robinson saw Humes and Boswell work on the
head with scalpel and bone saw, before Humes kicked out all navy
personnel. Robinson wasn't navy and had gotten there early and thought he
had come in the middle of the autopsy, but that was still a long way off.

All the testimony fits this, and you will be able to find no other
scenario that fits all testimony, but go ahead and try. Especially the
opening of the shipping casket and seeing JFK's body.

Chris

[OHLeeRedux]

The "switch could have occurred," the "switch may have occurred" . . .

Aliens may have - or could have - teleported JFK's brain directly from the
limo on Elm Street to the planet K-Pax, where it exists to this day,
creating out of thin air bizarre body-snatching theories for the
entertainment of techno-nerds on the planet Earth.

[MINNESOTA SLOB]

A Nightmare on Elm Street starring Lee Harvey Oswald as Doorway Man.

[MINNESOTA SLOB]

On Thursday, March 27, 2014 11:06:24 PM UTC-4, OHLeeRedux wrote:

A NIGHTMARE ON ELM STREET STARRING OSWALD AS DOORWAY MAN and
narrated by Ralph Cinque.

[Bud]

Why would anyone do that? Theres no harm in letting you believe silly
things.

[Anthony Marsh]

Jackie stayed with the body until the swearing in. Then she assigned
McHugh to take over the vigil and he stayed with the body at all times.

HSCA Record Number 180-10078-10465 Agency File Number 009414
Originator-HSCA
From: Godfrey McHugh
To: --
Date: 5/11/78
Pages: 5
Subjects: Motorcade
Assassination
Return of remains to D.C.
LBJ
JFK autopsy
Release Date: 10/22/93

Contents: Report by HSCA investigator Mark Flanagan on
telephone interview with McHugh. Document follows
in full.

KENNEDY

SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS


NAME Brigadier General Godfrey McHugh DATE 5-11-78 TIME

ADDRESS 5241 Partridge Lane, N.W. PLACE Telephone interview
Washington, D.C.


Interview: I spoke to General McHugh by telephone on May 11, 1978
concerning his presence at the autopsy of President Kennedy. McHugh
currently resides at 5241 Partridge Lane, N.W., Washington, D.C. His
phone number is (202) 244-5241.
At the time of the assassination McHugh served as the Air Force
Military Aide of the President. As such, he regularly travelled with
the President during official visits and commanded Air Force I.
Consequently, McHugh accompanied the President's body back to Bethesda.
McHugh stated that the purpose of the Texas trip was to provide
"full exposure" of the President to the people of Dallas and thus
politically "win" the Texans. Ordinarily McHugh rode in the
Presidential limousine in the front seat. This was the first time he
was instructed not to ride in the car so that all
attention would be focused on the President to accentuate full exposure.
McHugh recalled that during the motorcade he distinctly heard
three shots in succession, as did John Clifton who was

Interviewer Signature /s/ Mark Flanagan
Typed Signature Mark Flanagan
Date transcribed br 5-24-78

[end of page one]



Brigadier General Godfrey McHugh
Page 2.


riding beside him. McHugh immediately scanned the area but did not
discern any assassin or assassins. McHugh said that the shots
originated from above and in the vicinity of the TSBD.
After the Parkland doctors pronounced the President dead McHugh
said that the Presidential Party received notice that the President's
body was not to be removed from Texas. The Secret Service and the
President's aides decided, however, that the President's body was in
their custody and that they should remove it from Texas. McHugh
assisted the Secret Service agents in removing the casket from the
hospital. In the process McHugh recalled that the police and Mayor
Cabal stopped them and informed them that they would be breaking the law
if they removed the body. McHugh then told the Texas authorities that
he didn't understand how he could be breaking the law when he was only
following orders and then, together with the S.S. agents, proceeded to
"politely push everything out of the way" and transport the body to Air
Force I.
Once the President's body, Jackie Kennedy, the Secret Service
agents, McHugh and some others were aboard Air Force I, Ken O'Donnell
told McHugh to take off for Washington. McHugh learned from the pilot,
however, that Vice President Johnson had already assumed control of Air
Force I and had ordered the plane to remain on the ground until further
notice. This was to allow transfer of materials from Air Force II to I
and to allow

[end of page two]


Brigadier General Godfrey McHugh
Page 3.


for the arrival of various persons for the swearing-in ceremony.
During this time McHugh began looking for Johnson to discuss the
situation. The pilot told McHugh that Johnson had already boarded Air
Force I. McHugh had encountered difficulty in locating Johnson but
finally discovered him alone "hiding in the toilet in the bedroom
compartment and muttering, `Conspiracy,
conspiracy, they're after all of us.'" McHugh then attempted to calm
Johnson.
During the flight to Andrews Air Force Base in Washington McHugh
sat with Mrs. Kennedy next to the President's casket in the rear of Air
Force I. McHugh said Mrs. Kennedy instructed McHugh "not to leave the
body of the President" until it was finally prepared for burial.
After arriving at Andrews McHugh said he rode with the President's
body, Mrs. Kennedy, and Robert Kennedy in an ambulance to the Bethesda
Naval Hospital for the performance of an autopsy. McHugh remained with
the body and witnessed the autopsy while the family members maintained
vigil in a suite at the hospital.
McHugh recalled that his first thought during the autopsy was how
yellow the body appeared to be. He remembered that the autopsy doctors
remarked that this was not unusual in this situation. McHugh did not
ask for further elaboration.
McHugh said the basic purpose of the autopsy was to deter-

[end of page three]


Brigadier General Godfrey McHugh
Page 4.


mine what exactly killed the President. He said Secret Service men were
present as well as the three principal pathologists. During the autopsy
no one was permitted to enter or leave.
McHugh did not have specific recollection concerning the location
of the wounds or the discussions among the doctors. McHugh did say that
the pathologists recorded minute notes and that he recalled a wound to
the throat. A primary concern was locating any fragments of lead.
McHugh said that Bobby Kennedy and Ken O'Donnell frequently
telephoned him during the autopsy from their suite. On all occasions
RFK and O'Donnell only asked to speak with McHugh. McHugh said they
inquired about the results, about why the autopsy was taking so much
time, and about the need for speed and efficiency while still performing
the required examinations. McHugh said he never stated or implied that
the doctors should limit the autopsy in any manner but merely reminded
them to work as efficiently and quickly as possible. McHugh said that
even after he would inform RFK and O'Donnell that the autopsy would
require several hours they would still frequently call to ask why it was
taking so long and when it would be completed.
McHugh recalled that O'Donnell and the Secret Service instructed
that all procedures related to the body should be performed at Bethesda
to reduce security risks.
After preparations at Bethesda were complete, McHugh accompanied
the body to the White House where it was placed

[end of page four]


Brigadier General Godfrey McHugh
Page 5.


in the East Room.
McHugh stated that he formerly worked with Presidents Roosevelt,
Truman and Eisenhower. After retiring from the military, Magnavox
employed McHugh as a Vice President. McHugh is currently fully retired.

[end of page five and end of document]

[mainframetech]

On Thursday, March 27, 2014 11:06:24 PM UTC-4, OHLeeRedux wrote:

So sad. The complete inability to deal with information in a normal
way. When there is no honest answer to a situation some go for ridicule
to attempt to put down the ideas being presented, instead of doing the
work, reviewing the presentation, and arguing against it rationally.

Anyone able yet to deal with the 3 caskets seen by a number of
witnesses? How about the witnesses that saw the body of JFK be taken out
of the shipping casket? Or how about the witnesses that saw Humes and
Boswell damage the top of the head of JFK BEFORE the 'official' autopsy?
And all in sworn testimony!

No wonder the new forum wants to eliminate LNs.

Chris

[Anthony Marsh]

Not true. Bowron had to stuff gauze into the wound on the top of the
head to prepare it for shipping.

[mainframetech]

On Thursday, March 27, 2014 11:06:24 PM UTC-4, OHLeeRedux wrote:

How easy to avoid answering the questions that the witnesses have
presented and attempt to ridicule instead. The questions are witnesses
helping the body to be lifted out of a shipping casket and put on the
table, and helicopters being used to get the body there faster than the
motorcade with the Kennedy family and FBI and SS agents. No rational
argument is made, proving that the scenario that came right out of
testimony is right.

Thank you.

[OHLeeRedux]

Anyone able yet to deal with the 3 caskets seen by a number of witnesses?
How about the witnesses that saw the body of JFK be taken out of the
shipping casket? Or how about the witnesses that saw Humes and Boswell
damage the top of the head of JFK BEFORE the 'official' autopsy? And all
in sworn testimony!

No shipping casket. Witnesses wrong.

No damage to head "prior to autopsy." Witnesses wrong.

"Sworn testimony" does not equal Truth.

Witnesses wrong, Kemosabe. Live with it.

[mainframetech]

Here is some of Bowron's sworn testimony:

Miss BOWRON - He was very pale, he was lying across Mrs. Kennedy's knee
and there seemed to be blood everywhere. When I went around to the other
side of the car I saw the condition of his head.
Mr. SPECTER - You saw the condition of his what?
Miss BOWRON - The back of his head.
Mr. SPECTER - And what was that condition?
Miss BOWRON - Well, it was very bad---you know.
Mr. SPECTER - How many holes did you see?
Miss BOWRON - I just saw one large hole.
Mr. SPECTER - Did you see a small bullet hole beneath that one large hole?
Miss BOWRON - No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER - Did you notice any other wound on the President's body?
Miss BOWRON - No, sir.

So at the beginning of the Parkland episode she didn't see any wound on
the top of the head, and there is no mention that I can find in her
testimony talking about "stuffing" anything into the top of the head.
She had a later interview with Harry Livingstone in the 90's, and may have
said something then, but that's 30 years after her first recollections in
1964. She had seen the autopsy photos after Humes and Boswell worked on
the head, so she may have thought those wounds were there when the body
first arrived at Parkland.

Chris

[mainframetech]

Nope, won't do. You've made statements that have absolutely NO backup
of any kind. You'll have to live with the testimonies and not your own
fantasies unless you can provide some proof for your assertions.

The quick answer that the witnesses all lied or were mistaken won't
wash. The witness list just keeps growing, and we also have corroboration
on each of the parts of the story from testimony.

Chris

[Anthony Marsh]

Some witnesses lied. Many were mistaken. A researcher's job is to
separate the truth from the fiction.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 3/29/2014 6:21 PM, mainframetech wrote:

Because you are not a researcher you are not privy to information beyond
the WC. Years later she gave more of the story to researchers who
tracked her down.

Killing the Truth, page 183

Statement by Nurse Diana Bowron:

"When the body was placed in the coffin
the wound in the back of the head was
packed with gauze squares and wrapped
in a small white sheet."

Here's what a real researcher did:

Subject: Re: Those "Unreliable" Parkland Nurses 1.
Date: 27 Jun 2003 14:29:18 GMT
From: Martin Shackelford <msh...@concentric.net>
Organization: Concentric Internet Services
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk

In case the copy with the photo doesn't download properly, here's the
text without the photo:

Harrison Livingstone has granted permission for me to post the contents
of a letter from Diana Bowron, dated 24th January 1993, and which
arrived too late for inclusion in High Treason 2. He recently ran across
it again, and thought it might be of interest. The only items omitted
are several personal notes, salutations, and her married name, which she
asked not be published.

The Cover Letter:

I have enclosed two photostats of photographs which may be of help to you.

1. From the Illustrated London News dated Nov 30th 1963 showing the
arrival of the casket at Andrews Air Force Base. That is the casket in
which we placed the President's body. The colour was bronzeand according
to the people from the funeral home it was the best they had.

2. From the Hospital Highlights the news letter of the Dallas County
Hospital District, of the trauma room where Kennedy was treated. The
photograph was taken for that edition of the news letter so it shows the
room as it was at the time of the assassination. I thought it might help
with the placement or non-placement of photographs, eg. tiles, also gurney
covers which were black. As I remember all the wall tiles in the emergency
room were the same height.

I understood the last time I was in Dallas, about two years after the
assassination, that the Emergency Room was to be moved and enlarged so I
am assuming that it no longer exists in its original form.

[Note: The photostats were not enclosed, as both pictures are widely
available.]

[A copy of a JFK back photo, F5, is enclosed, indicating "This is where
I remember the wound," but adding, "This is not the back I saw." The
location is indicated on the attached copy of the photo.]

[The main statement follows:]

The following is in answer to your questions.

When the president expired everyone left the room apart from Miss
Hinchcliffe, a male orderly and myself. We tidied the room and changed
the linen on the gurney and washed the body as best we could. Miss
Hinchcliffe and the orderly left the room, but I was told to remain with
the body until the casket arrived. I was told that I had to stay because
I had been one of the people who had taken the body from the car. I
remained in the room while the widow paid her respects. After she had
left I was asked, by a man I assumed was Secret Service, to collect all
pieces of skull and brain I could find and place them in a plastic bag
which he gave me. This I did and returned the bag to him (there were
only a few fragments of bone that had stuck to the dressings and towels
that we had used to pack the hole in the back of the head). I remained
in the room until the people from the funeral home arrived. After we had
placed the body in the casket and it had been closed I was allowed to
leave. During the time I was with the body only the widow and the priest
came into the room, any dealings I had with the Secret Service were done
in the doorway; no one else entered the room and no photographs were taken.

Apart from 2-3 mins, when I left the trauma room to collect blood from
the Blood Bank, I was with the body from the car until it was placed in
the casket.
Being new to the establishment, I was assigned to Minor Medicine and
Surgery, which was across the hall from the Triage desk and the major
sections of the Emergency room. It being very quiet, there were only two
or three patients waiting for the results of tests, I was talking with
the Triage nurse when the call went up for gurneys. I grabbed a gurney
in the hall and together with an orderly ran to the entrance. I saw that
the person in the back of the car was injured so I climbed in to render
what assistance I could until such time as we could move him to a
trolley, then to the trauma room (others were assisting the Governor in
the front seat). I saw that there was a massive amount of blood on the
back seat and in order to find the cause I lifted his head and my
fingers went into a large wound in the back of his head; I turned his
head and seeing the size of the wound realized that I could not stop the
bleeding. I turned his head back and saw an entry wound in the front of
the throat, I could feel no pulse at the jugular and having seen the
extent of the injury to the back of the head I assumed that he was dead.
(not my job, only a Doctor can certify death) When we got the President
to the Trauma room, word had reached the Trauma team and they were ready
with I.Vs etc. I worked with the team, assisting where needed for about
10 mins (time is difficult to judge in those circumstances), when I was
told to go to the Blood Bank. I was away 2-3 mins and on my return I
continued to assist where needed until the President was declared dead.

Miss Margaret Hinchcliffe and an African-American orderly and I prepared
the body for the coffin. [Marginal note: David Sanders]

I observed no strange activity of any kind and saw no bullets.

As explained above, I thought after examination in the car that he was
dead. There was no damage to the front of his face, only the gaping
wound in the back of his head and the entry wound in his throat.

When we prepared the body for the coffin we washed the face and closed
the eyes; there was no damage to the face, there was no flap of scalp on
the right, neither was there a laceration pointing toward the right
eyebrow from the scalp.

When we were preparing the body for the coffin we rolled it over in
order to remove the bloodstained sheet from underneath and to wipe away
the blood from the back of the body. I saw another entry wound in the
upper back (the other entry wound being in the front of the throat).
With reference to the photograph The Back (F5) I only saw one wound, and
not the number of wounds in the photograph; I do not think that the
photo (F5) is of the President. I have marked for you on the photostat
that you sent me where I think the entry wound was.

I first saw the large wound in the back of the head in the car; when we
were preparing the body for the coffin I had the opportunity to examine
it more closely. It was about 5ins in diameter, there was no flap of
skin covering it, just a fraction of skin along part of the edges of
bone, there was however some hair hanging down from the top of the head
which was caked with blood, and most of the brain was missing. The wound
was so large I could almost put my whole fist inside.

When we prepared the body I washed as much blood as I could from the
hair; while doing this I didnot see any other wound either in the
temples or in other parts of the head.

I did not see anything suspicious about any of the doctors, though there
were far more doctors there than they should have been; perhaps because
it was the president they all wanted to get in on the act. You must
remember that I had only been there a short time and I did not know all
the doctors, some I never saw again, but they were all known to each
other. With regard to a post: in this context I think it would refer to
a gathering of the doctors after the event, to discuss the case. This
was standard practice, when more than one or two doctors were involved.

When the body was placed in the coffin the wound at the back of the head
was packed with gauze squares and wrapped in small white sheet, there
was no terrycloth or other type of towel used.

The coffin or casket was bronze with plain fittings, as in the enclosed
photograph. [This refers to the Andrews Air Force Base photo.]

I don't think the body was removed from the coffin. After I left the
Trauma room I was in a position to see if any one entered or left the
room. No one entered or left until they removed the coffin.

A clear plastic sheet was placed in the bottom of the coffin, which may
have been a mattress cover; the body was wrapped in at the most two
sheets plus the one around the head, all the sheets were white and none
had zips. There was no "body bag".

Perhaps the following will be of interest to you.

As soon as the coffin left the trauma room, I went back to Minor Med.
and Surg. to resume my work: I don't know anything about the fight with
Earl Rose, which happened at that time.

When I arrived there I found that the patients had been moved elsewhere,
and the department had been taken over by the Vice President and his
staff. They were getting ready to leave when I got there, as they passed
me I heard the Vice President say to his wife "Make a note of what
everyone says and does".

Again I hope this is of some help to you.

[Signed] Diana Bowron

[mainframetech]

I'm surprised! So many detractors and they all faded away into the
woodwork. I must have answered all questions to the satisfaction of all
parties, or they just gave up from lack of questions or evidence against
sworn testimony.

Chris

[mainframetech]

You can be sure that if anyone finds ANY communication or statement from
Nurse Bowron, that it will agree with her testimony. There will be a
'large hole' in the BOH and no other wounds in the head. They will find
that she left the body for a few minutes to do something as well.

Chris

[OHLeeRedux]

mainframetech
- show quoted text -
Prove to me that one of the names you mention was with the casket EVERY
second from the time the body was in it (if it was in it). And that EVERY
one of them NEVER stepped away to the bathroom or anywhere for even a
second, or lied about being in the presence of the casket EVERY second.

Prove a negative? That NO ONE EVER left the casket?

Won't do. Won't wash. Won't convince anyone with an IQ over 80.

You prove that ANYONE removed the body from the casket on AF 1. And that
proof does NOT consist of someone talking about what they claim to have
seen after the casket left the plane, and it does NOT consist of saying
you can't prove it because the dog ate your evidence, but someday the
proof will be forthcoming when the dog poops it out.

Witness testimony. Someone who saw the body being removed on AF 1. No
excuses. No "Some day, more new evidence every day, blah, blah, blah, and
blah again."

[Anthony Marsh]

Pay attention. We have found it. And it goes beyond her WC testimony.
The WC lawyers were smart enough to know what NOT to ask her.
No one asked Joe Smith about the fake SS agent on the grassy knoll. He
just blurted it out.

[cmikes]

So Chris's theory is the Jackie, Ken O'Donnell, Larry O'Brien, David
Powers, and George Burkley all went to the bathroom at the same time?
Wow, I don't think the bathroom even on Air Force One is that big. Even
if one of them stepped away for a moment like Jackie did for LBJ's
swearing in, or when Burkley went to the cockpit for information on when
they were taking off, there's never been any evidence that they all left
at once. As a matter of fact, there's a quote from David Powers that they
made sure that there was always someone with the body, because they didn't
want to leave their friend or Jackie alone.

[mainframetech]

On Monday, March 31, 2014 6:33:40 PM UTC-4, OHLeeRedux wrote:

Apparently you have been too afraid to look over the evidence that has
been presented to you, or chose to ignore it so that you would still have
something to say on the subject and your beliefs wouldn't be crushed
beneath the feet of some witnesses.

I have proved that the shipping casket contained the body of JFK, and
it is obviously was NOT the casket he was put in at Parkland. Therefore
the body was switched to the different casket. In Richard Lipsey's
testimony, you get some of the reasoning for the 'decoy' hearse. If you
would like to try to disprove the testimony of the people that knew that
the body was in the shipping casket, why not let us know about it?
Making statements of your beliefs is the same as a religious person saying
'my way is right because I know it is.' It's a matter of faith, like
believing the WC report.

Chris

[mainframetech]

LOL! So if they "didn't want to leave Jackie alone", when she stood
with LBJ at the swearing in, they were all there? :)

Had it occurred to anyone that the excuse that was used for switching
caskets was to lure off the media and have them follow the wrong casket
and hearse and it made a perfect excuse to enlist many of the 'hangers on'
to help with the switching...:) When Jackie left the casket the few times
she did (once for the swearing in, and perhaps at least once for a
bathroom trip) there was opportunity for the switch with willing helpers.
Perhaps (only perhaps) Jackie herself would approve of such a plan and be
perfectly OK with it and look the other way at the right time.

An excuse like that might even enlist the help of LBJ himself.

Chris

[cmikes]

Lots of "perhaps", "maybes", and "mights" in there, Chris. Do you have
any evidence at all of these "perhaps", "maybes", and "mights"? Yeah,
didn't think so.

[Anthony Marsh]

They were not all there. McHugh stayed with the casket while Jackie
attended the swearing in.

> Had it occurred to anyone that the excuse that was used for switching
> caskets was to lure off the media and have them follow the wrong casket

The Media did not follow the casket.

> and hearse and it made a perfect excuse to enlist many of the 'hangers on'
> to help with the switching...:) When Jackie left the casket the few times
> she did (once for the swearing in, and perhaps at least once for a
> bathroom trip) there was opportunity for the switch with willing helpers.

No there wasn't. McHugh stayed with the casket. It was never left alone.

> Perhaps (only perhaps) Jackie herself would approve of such a plan and be
> perfectly OK with it and look the other way at the right time.
>

Ludicrous. Why don't you just claim that every person in the US was
involved in the plot?

> An excuse like that might even enlist the help of LBJ himself.
>

LBJ was hiding in the shower.

> Chris
>

[mainframetech]

Saying that is true, but folks may get the idea reading it that the
whole story that cqame from sworn testimony was all maybes, which it
isn't. As with any detective on a police force, they have to often oput
together things that occurred in between the facts that they have
discovered. That's ehat I have done in some instances. That does NOT
mean that the body wasn't switched because there was evidence to that
effect, and Humes and Boswell damaged the had of JFK BEFORE the 'official'
autopsy at 8:00pm. All that is recorded in testimony. Since there is
proof that the body was switched and that the top of the head was damaged
AFTER the body left Parkland, some of the key information has been
validated.

It won't do to pick out a peripheral 'maybe' and try to make the whole
sworn story false.

Chris

[cmikes]

How about this, then? MAYBE aliens from mars killed JFK and PERHAPS they
have secret mind control rays that MIGHT wear off after 30 years which is
why you're so intent on taking the word of people 30 years after the fact
instead of the reports and testimony of people who file reports and
testified immediately after the autopsy. There's just as much evidence
for that as what you contend.

[mainframetech]

Among the people whose testimony I have used, most of them were ordered to be silent for many years after the autopsy and the related events. As well, some of them weren't even questioned by the WC. In the case of Tom Robinson, although he arrived early, he thought because Humes and Boswell were sawing away at JFK's head, that the autopsy had started. He thought that what they did to the body was what he called 'damage', but he just thought they were incompetent and not doing something as part of a coverup.

I would rather take statements from immediately after an event, but the world doesn't work that way.

But keep in mind that the autopsy, the cutting up of the president of the US, was not an everyday thing around Bethesda, and most of it stuck in the minds of the witnesses. Emotionally unpleasant.

Chris

[Anthony Marsh]

Why do you always blame the Martians? Are you a Martian hater?

[cmikes]

No, in all honesty, I just use aliens as a shorthand for any
conspiratorial group. I think I've posted before that I find all aspects
of conspiratorial thinking interesting, from Holocaust Deniers, to the
black helicopter/UN takeover crowd, to the reptilian alien invaders and so
on. So if I say aliens, you can just substitute the Illuminati, the
Trilateral Commission, the Freemasons, the Rotarians, the Greys, the CIA,
the men in black, whatever CT faith you happen to belong to.

To me, they're all interchangeable, the massive, unstoppable, all-knowing,
all-seeing, all-powerful "THEM" that make CTs look under their beds before
they go to sleep at night.

[Anthony Marsh]

There you go again mindlessly slandering and getting the details wrong.
FYI:
The Reptilians are not aliens. They were here first, before the humans.
They are just defending THEIR Earth.
The helicopters are not black. They are dark green.
We conspiracy believers think of the WC defenders as the Holocaust deniers.

> on. So if I say aliens, you can just substitute the Illuminati, the
> Trilateral Commission, the Freemasons, the Rotarians, the Greys, the CIA,
> the men in black, whatever CT faith you happen to belong to.
>
> To me, they're all interchangeable, the massive, unstoppable, all-knowing,
> all-seeing, all-powerful "THEM" that make CTs look under their beds before
> they go to sleep at night.
>

Only when you are creating straw man arguments.

[symb...@yahoo.com]

What facts? I don't see any facts being presented by you!

[symb...@yahoo.com]

Because of the stage managing by SS Kellerman who did his best to make
sure the wrong people were not present when the dirty deeds were done.
Incomplete and somewhat incompetent stage managing is the explanation for
some seeing the various body removals from two different caskets but not
others. Did you even read "The Best Evidence" or "Inside the ARRB"?

[mainframetech]

WOW! You'd be the perfect person for the aliens to perpetrate a
conspiracy on, since you sound like you don't believe anything once
someone has labeled it as a 'conspiracy theory', even when it comes with
solid testimonial proof.

Remember, this is the human race we're talking about. Conspiracies is
one of the things they do...:)

Chris

[OHLeeRedux]

mainframetech
- show quoted text -

WOW! You'd be the perfect person for the aliens to perpetrate a
conspiracy on, since you sound like you don't believe anything once
someone has labeled it as a 'conspiracy theory', even when it comes with
solid testimonial proof.

Remember, this is the human race we're talking about. Conspiracies is
one of the things they do...:)

Chris

Dude. I hate to break it to you, but there are NO ALIENS invading earth.
If someone decides that is a good idea to testify under oath that there
ARE aliens invading earth, good for them.

That does not change the fact that there are NO ALIENS invading earth.

[mainframetech]

On Saturday, April 5, 2014 3:20:59 PM UTC-4, symb...@yahoo.com wrote:
> What facts? I don't see any facts being presented by you!

You didn't say who you were talking to. If it was me, all evidence I
presented came from sworn testimony, which you can easily find under ARRB
and the name of the witness. If not, let me know and I'll find it for
you.

Chris

[mainframetech]

Yes, both...with volume 4 of the ARRB group.

I don't think Kellerman was involved in the casket switch or the damage
to the top of the head of JFK though BEFORE the 'official' autopsy.
Although I suspect him as one of the conspirators along with Boring (SS),
and Frazier (FBI) and a few others. Listen to the testimony of Boring to
the ARRB and be surprised...:)

Chris

[mainframetech]

Try and remember that YOU brought aliens into the conversation with your
original comments:

"...Aliens may have - or could have - teleported JFK's brain directly
from the limo on Elm Street to the planet K-Pax".

Does it all come back to you now?

Chris

[Anthony Marsh]

Silly. He only brings up aliens to make fun of ALL conspiracy believers.
BTW, let me take this opportunity to straighten out some of the confusion
about aliens. They do exist, but they do not travel to our planet. We may
bump into them if we ever travel deep in outer space. There are none in
our local group.

[cmikes]

On Saturday, April 5, 2014 3:23:40 PM UTC-4, mainframetech wrote:

Stuff Trimmed

>
>
>
>
> WOW! You'd be the perfect person for the aliens to perpetrate a
>
> conspiracy on, since you sound like you don't believe anything once
>
> someone has labeled it as a 'conspiracy theory', even when it comes with
>
> solid testimonial proof.
>
>
>
> Remember, this is the human race we're talking about. Conspiracies is
>
> one of the things they do...:)
>
>
>
> Chris

No, I believe in all kinds of conspiracies. Watergate was a conspiracy.
Iran-Contra was a conspiracy. President Clinton's sexual harassment case
was a conspiracy. Filegate was a conspiracy. Selling the Lincoln Bedroom
in the White House in exchange for campaign contributions was a
conspiracy. The IRS targeting scandal was a conspiracy. That's not
counting the thousands of non-political conspiracies that people are
convicted of every year in this country.

The difference is that there is evidence in these conspiracies. There's
testimony in open court by participants in the conspiracies. There's
convictions in a court of law. There's guilty pleas with allocutions
given by participants in the various conspiracies. In the political
cases, there's testimony before Congress people involved in the various
conspiracies.

You can believe that the CIA had access to teleportation technology from
Star Trek to steal JFK's body without anyone seeing anything, but without
evidence, who really cares what you believe? It's nothing personal, the
same rules apply to everyone. Belief without evidence is meaningless.
You can have all the great theories that you want, but without anything to
prove it, you're just pissing into the wind. You're entire theory depends
on misreading testimony given 30 years after the fact while completely
ignoring all the physical evidence and all testimony given at the time.
Do you really expect anyone to buy that?

[otu...@gmail.com]

@ mainframetech:

The ongoing study & search for unedited AF-1 radio transmission & the
phantom JFK C-130 death car plane, crew & passengers hold answers to your
questions that began your topic. Of the 9 persons onboard the C-130, at
least 4 may have heard what was broadcast to & from AF-1 that is not on
the AF-1 tapes available to the public: pilot, co-Pilot, navigator &
loadmaster. Any broadcasts made by either of the two SS agents onboard
(Hickey & Kinney) not on the AF-1 tapes should have been heard by the
pilot, co-pilot & navigator & possibly the loadmaster. All wear headsets
throughout the course of their duties.

One can't help but notice a pattern in Bill Kelly's & Ed Primeau's
analysis of the AF-1 tapes that suspected editing occurs in some
transmissions between SS agents onboard AF-1 & Jerry Behn in Washington
when arrangements for JFK's autopsy are being developed & initiated in
advance of AF-1 arriving at Andrews. It seems to me to suggest who was
behind editing the AF-1 tapes: the Secret Service. The fact that the hunt
for General Lemay was not edited out suggests to me the SS discussed
things that Agency did not want to public to hear after the ambush of JFK.
I believe unedited original tapes, transcripts & interviewing persons
connected to the C-130 flight out of Dallas will, in time, answer some or
all of your topic questions

OC

[Anthony Marsh]

On 4/6/2014 9:30 PM, cmikes wrote:
> On Saturday, April 5, 2014 3:23:40 PM UTC-4, mainframetech wrote:
>
> Stuff Trimmed
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> WOW! You'd be the perfect person for the aliens to perpetrate a
>>
>> conspiracy on, since you sound like you don't believe anything once
>>
>> someone has labeled it as a 'conspiracy theory', even when it comes with
>>
>> solid testimonial proof.
>>
>>
>>
>> Remember, this is the human race we're talking about. Conspiracies is
>>
>> one of the things they do...:)
>>
>>
>>
>> Chris
>
> No, I believe in all kinds of conspiracies. Watergate was a conspiracy.
> Iran-Contra was a conspiracy. President Clinton's sexual harassment case
> was a conspiracy. Filegate was a conspiracy. Selling the Lincoln Bedroom
> in the White House in exchange for campaign contributions was a
> conspiracy. The IRS targeting scandal was a conspiracy. That's not
> counting the thousands of non-political conspiracies that people are
> convicted of every year in this country.
>

The only things you think are conspiracies are when you want to blame
Democrats. The IRS targeting was not a conspiracy. It's called enforcing
regulations, something which you are opposed to. It did not single out
your Tea Party groups. It looked at ALL contributions.

> The difference is that there is evidence in these conspiracies. There'

Nope. Darrel Issa is a kook. There is no evidence.

s
> testimony in open court by participants in the conspiracies. There's
> convictions in a court of law. There's guilty pleas with allocutions
> given by participants in the various conspiracies. In the political
> cases, there's testimony before Congress people involved in the various
> conspiracies.

Testimony is not always proof.

[mainframetech]

Do you really think that the death and autopsy of the POTUS is
something that navy personnel who helped with would forget? How badly do
you want to hold to your cherished WC wacky theories, that you will ignore
sworn testimony? Because the 'single bullet' and the 'lone nut' are
theories supposedly put forward by lawyers for the WC.

If you think there is a specific item in the story you've been shown,
then argue it and make your case. It's too easy to simply deny everything
you've seen that all hangs together and say it never happened.

Chris

[mainframetech]

I'm sure you're right about having all the communications would answer a
lot of questions. I don't think they will ever turn up, but hope springs
eternal.

However, there is enough sworn testimony that is corroborated to give
us items of information that show what transpired somewhere along the line
before the Bronze casket was unloaded off the plane. We have corroborated
testimony that JFK was in the shipping casket, and a good reason for it to
be that way. Nothing else fits all the facts stated by all parties,
including the FBI and SS agents.

And worst of all, we have corroborated testimony of what Humes and
Boswell did to the body BEFORE the 'official' autopsy at 8:00pm. 2 men
saw it happen before one of them was kicked out of the room.

Chris

[cmikes]

OK. Who specifically stole JFK's body? You claim, without any evidence
that Wehle and Lipsey were assigned to do it, but what evidence do you
have that? There's no testimony that they did so. There's no physical
evidence that they did so. Since every witness except one testified that
JFK's body was in the same casket it left Dallas in, do you have any
evidence of anything else? When did this happen? Why did Jackie and some
of JFK's closest friends and advisers go along with it? Why does every
single person who was there except one deny that JFK's body showed up in a
shipping casket? If you believe that they were all part of the
conspiracy, what evidence do you have of that? Do you have any bank
records showing large deposits to everyone present except the one witness
who remembers something differently? Any evidence of threats made?
Anything? Is there any reason to believe the thirty year old memories of
one person over the testimony of every other single person present and the
physical evidence?

[stevemg...@yahoo.com]

Cyril Wecht points out that it would have taken a team of surgeons hours
and hours to alter the wounds.

So even if, arguendo, this was done they didn't have time.

And who the hell was "they" anyway? Who did it? Where? How was it done?

[Anthony Marsh]

Do you have all the bank records from Watergate? Of course not, so
therefore you think it wasn't a conspiracy. All you have are phony
challenges.

[OHLeeRedux]

cmikes

- show quoted text -

OK. Who specifically stole JFK's body? You claim, without any evidence
that Wehle and Lipsey were assigned to do it, but what evidence do you
have that? There's no testimony that they did so. There's no physical
evidence that they did so. Since every witness except one testified that
JFK's body was in the same casket it left Dallas in, do you have any
evidence of anything else? When did this happen? Why did Jackie and some
of JFK's closest friends and advisers go along with it? Why does every
single person who was there except one deny that JFK's body showed up in a
shipping casket? If you believe that they were all part of the
conspiracy, what evidence do you have of that? Do you have any bank
records showing large deposits to everyone present except the one witness
who remembers something differently? Any evidence of threats made?
Anything? Is there any reason to believe the thirty year old memories of
one person over the testimony of every other single person present and the
physical evidence?

Don't hold your breath waiting for any real answers.


You will receive cut and paste responses. That is why there are no
indictments after 50 years. Prosecutors need proof, not hobbyist
speculations.

[cmikes]

I'm not trying to prove that every single government bureaucrat was
involved in the Watergate/plumbers conspiracy. Chris obviously believes
Lifton's theory put forth in Best Evidence 30 years ago. The burden of
proof is on them to show SOMETHING. Right now they don't have enough
evidence to convince 90 percent of CT's, and that says something. They
can't provide enough evidence of their theory to convince people who are
ready to blame a rainy day on "them", so how can they be expected to
convince a judge?

And really, you think it's a "phony challenge" to ask a CT to provide even
a tiny bit of evidence for their theory? How typical. Let's hear your
Harry Potter spells again, Tony. Reducto ab Absurdum!!! Straw Man!!!

[mainframetech]

Copy/pasting of testimony? You think that's somehow wrong to do?
Maybe you think I'm doing some sort of sacrilege to tell the story
straight for everyone, and avoid the cover up that constantly goes on
about this case.

When you start copy/pasting YOUR proof of what you say, then we'll be
on an equal footing. Until then, I copy/paste proofs and you just do like
you've been doing, complaining without any backup for your statements.

Chris

[mainframetech]

I guess you didn't read my full explanation of what happened. I'm not
going to rerun the whole thing, just look for it in another thread, but
I'll give you some information now. Because Cyril Wecht says something,
doesn't make it gospel. The body of JFK was mangled badly by the 2
prosectors (Humes and Boswell), and they did it in minutes, not hours.
They were SEEN doing it (repeat SEEN doing it) using scalpel and bone saw.
They later pretended they hadn't done it at that time (6:35pm) but had
done it as part of the 'official' autopsy at 8:00pm. The witnesses were
Ed Reed and Tom Robinson, mentioned in there testimonies. By not telling
anyone what they had done before the crowd arrived, they caused Paul
O'Connor, who always had the job of removing the brain, to think the whole
brain had been blown out by a bullet. The 2 prosectors that did the
damage didn't clear up the situation for O'Connor, and let him think what
he did for years after:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDYNMlXD59o

Chris

[stevemg...@yahoo.com]

Their evidence is somebody at sometime said something.

That's it.

Other people who contradict that statements are dismissed. And the
physical evidence? It was all faked. The photos, the x-rays, the films,
the photos...

Round and round it goes.

The conspiracy crowd HAVE to believe in a conspiracy. Otherwise, their
worldview falls apart. Because it's not just the JFK assassination they
believe was a conspiracy. They believe it was one of a number of
conspiracies that's been done by THEM or THEY for half a century.

America was hijacked in 1963 and the forces that did so have been running
things since then.

[mainframetech]

There is testimony that the body of JFK came out of a shipping casket
at Bethesda morgue. See testimony of Ed Reed and Dennis David. See the
drawing by Paul O'Connor of the morgue area where he names the 'shipping
casket' (labelled as such) and shows the passage of the body from the
loading dock to a point to the rightmost table, then to the other table
and finally to the mahogany casket. That's makes 3 people that saw JFK in
the shipping casket. See the after action report of Marine Sgt. Roger
Boyajian.

There is testimony from Jerrol Custer that they told him that the body
arrived at Bethesda in a helicopter. There is a copy of AF! transmissions
about a plan to helicopter the body to Bethesda. There is testimony that
there was a 'decoy' casket, and hearse/ambulance. It's amazing the amount
of evidence you can ignore as if you never saw it. I've listed some of
just now, want to explain any of it as other than 'mistakes' or 'lies'?

For most of all the statements in testimony we've looked at, there is
corroboration form at least one and sometimes more people.

IF Jackie or some of the agents along with the group were told the idea
of a second casket, they would be glad to help to make the switch to help
the Kennedys, and especially Jackie to avoid the press. But they wouldn't
be inclined to talk about it because the public wouldn't like that they
were playing musical caskets with the body of the president.

I don't know where you get the silly idea that bank accounts and money
and threats were necessary to ask some of the agents to help with the
switch of caskets. But being an LN can give you some odd ideas.

So now what "physical evidence" are you going to show us that proves
that there was only one casket in the face of all the evidence to the
contrary?

Chris

[mainframetech]

Aqain, don't be silly. I've produced all kinds of evidence and you've
provided none to counter it. When do you begin your effort to disprove
all the evidence I've shown you from testimony?

Chris

[OHLeeRedux]

JFK's body did not arrive in a shipping casket. What some person told some
other person what they think happened might be an interesting anecdote,
but it has nothing to do with the truth.

[Bud]

Used to think that on some level you must know you are playing silly
games with this event but I`m beginning to see that I was wrong to give
you the benefit of the doubt.

[mainframetech]

Neither do your pronouncements. Where's your specific proof from
testimony that that the body did NOT come out of the shipping casket that
3 people directly testified to? We're not talking "anecdotes" here, we're
talking sworn testimony, which is obviously been kept in mind since the
death of a president.

No hearsay here.

Chris

[Anthony Marsh]

Naughty, naughty, no fair demanding that we prove a negative. I already
posted the documents. The Stoughton photographs do not show a shipping
casket being loaded into Air Force One. The same casket with broken
handles is photographed being unloaded from Air Force One in Washington.
McHugh stayed with the casket when Jackie didn't.

> No hearsay here.
>

YOU do not set the rules, as the guy who never does ANY research.

> Chris
>

[Bud]

On Tuesday, March 25, 2014 10:27:42 PM UTC-4, mainframetech wrote:
> If you've been an LNer for some time, the odds of you changing because
>
> of facts you learned now are small, but I'll do what I can. Remember that
>
> ALL of what I'm saying can be found in the testimony of the people I
>
> mention, from WC, HSCA or ARRB. Mostly ARRB. I'm concerned that you
>
> begin with excuses for anything that Tom Robinson might say. His
>
> co-worker Van Hoesen was not a good subject for questioning, the ARRB
>
> people said that about him, but Robinson was very clear in his statements
>
> and the things he remembered. When he didn't remember, he didn't make
>
> anything up, he simply said he didn't remember.
>
>
>
> The discrepancy is much more than Finck being told by Humes that he
>
> didn't do any sawing (Finck's letter to his boss), and then Finck saying
>
> he MIGHT have done sawing. Two other people saw him doing it. But forget
>
> all that, it's small potatoes.
>
>
>
> Going through this description can be checked by using any name you
>
> find here and looking it up in testimony to verify that it was said.
>
> Links follow to help find the information in testimony.
>
>
>
> From reading testimony, I found that the body of JFK left Parkland with
>
> NO damage to the top of head, and a 'large hole' in the BOH, attested to
>
> by 'over 39+' people as you've seen in another thread. The body was at
>
> that time in a Bronze casket and was taken in Air Force 1 to Andrews Air
>
> Force Base. A general Wehle and his aide, Richard Lipsey (junior officer)
>
> were assigned to fool the media by putting the body into a standard
>
> shipping casket, and taking it to the Bethesda morgue that way, leaving
>
> the empty Bronze casket for the media and the Kennedy party to follow.
>
>
>
> When Wehle and Lipsey got to the airfield, they had the body moved out
>
> of the Bronze casket and placed into a simple shipping casket. The
>
> shipping casket and an honor guard were taken by 2 helicopters to Bethesda
>
> facility, which got them there much faster than the Bronze casket, which
>
> went by another hearse and more slowly.
>
>
>
> The first hearse arrived at Bethesda at the back door of the morgue at
>
> 6:35pm the time recorded by Marine Sgt. Roger Boyajian's after action
>
> report, which is available online. A fellow named Dennis David from the
>
> facility was called earlier and was waiting with a small troop of sailors
>
> who carried the simple shipping casket in to the morgue area. He was
>
> asked specifically what type of casket was used to carry JFK, and he
>
> replied that it was s "simple shipping casket" that he had seen many of in
>
> Vietnam.
>
>
>
> Next a fellow name Edward Reed (X-ray technician) was asked to help get
>
> the body out of the shipping casket and put it on the table. He was asked
>
> to identify JFK, which he did. At that point he did some X-rays and
>
> waited in the gallery that was near the autopsy table. He watched as
>
> Humes and Boswell began working on the head of the body. The removal of
>
> the brain is assigned to a certain job and that night the job was supposed
>
> to be done by Paul O'Connor. Instead, Humes and Boswell began the job,
>
> which was unheard of at Bethesda, that they would step in and do menial
>
> tasks like that.
>
>
>
> Ed Reed saw them use a scalpel to cut over the crown of the head from
>
> one ear to the other. (where there would later be a large missing piece of
>
> skull). The scalp was reflected back and forwards and Reed saw them begin
>
> to use a bone saw to start cutting around the skull at the forehead first.
>
> At that point Humes kicked Reed and the other X-ray technician (Jerrol
>
> Custer) out of the autopsy room. Remember that before this the top of the
>
> head was undamaged and there was only a small triangular piece of bone
>
> flopping forward from the right temple. As well, it was early yet and no
>
> one had arrived to view the process, so the gallery was empty.
>
>

I was bored so I decided to look into this hobbyist nonsense a little
bit, I looked at the first link, the one to Tom Robinson`s interview, and
noticed some things worth commenting on.

> It wasn't planned, but Tom Robinson got there early and he came in and
>
> saw them working on the body. He sat in the front row and watched as they
>
> damaged the top of the head and removed the brain.

Oswald did the damage, the prosectors were only gathering information
about the wounds he caused.

> He witnessed them
>
> using the saw to aid them.

I couldn`t find this.

> Later he would be asked to detail the wounds
>
> to the head, and he would list the original wounds as the 'large hole' in
>
> the BOH (which he drew, and the picture is online), the small triangular
>
> piece at the temple, and a small .25 inch hole just in the hairline on the
>
> right forehead, probably the real entry wound.

You mean the blow-out wound he saw at the right temple that he presumed
to be an exit?

> He made a clear
>
> distinction between these original wounds and the damage done by the
>
> prosectors.

Bodies are cut up during autopsies. The fact that they had so many
non-essential people in the room speaks loudly that they weren`t trying
anything underhanded.

I also notice he said he saw a bronze casket, but didn`t mention a
shipping carton.


> At the 'official' time for the autopsy at 8:00pm, with the gallery full
>
> of people, Paul O'Connor began his normal job and helped in opening a
>
> casket and getting the body out (yep, the body was now back in a casket!!)
>
> and putting it on the table. When he began the process of removing the
>
> brain, he saw that there was NO brain. He was amazed, but decided that a
>
> bullet had blown out most of the brains. Humes and Boswell who had removed
>
> the brain with no one watching said nothing to O'Connor and let him wonder
>
> where the brain went. When O'Connor backed off, Humes looked at the body
>
> and made a semi-humorous comment 'had anyone done any surgery on the
>
> body?' Of course, it had been HIM that ha done the work on the body, but
>
> it was apparently to be kept secret. Not a word to O'Connor in his
>
> wonderment, not a word to anyone else that the brain had been taken out
>
> already in private. When they spoke of the autopsy, the removal was
>
> spoken of as if they had done it as part of the 'official' autopsy, but it
>
> had been done long before anyone got there.
>
>
>
> At about 7:17pm (report of Sibert & O'Neill) there was the arrival of
>
> the second hearse and the Kennedy party at the front main entrance. They
>
> came in and were seen to go directly to the elevator and up to the
>
> executive suite on the 17th floor. Then the hearse they were with (Bronze
>
> casket) was driven around to the back of the facility and the casket was
>
> loaded in to the morgue cooler area for storage.
>
>
>
> All the above is from testimony. Now my own comments on what I read.
>
> I believe the plan to make 2 caskets and hearses and get one of the
>
> hearses to Bethesda much sooner than the other, was hatched while the body
>
> was in transit in AF1. The intent was to give the prosectors time to
>
> modify the body to fit the scenario they wanted to push from before the
>
> murder. The reason given was to fake out the media, but when the body
>
> arrived at Bethesda, Humes and Boswell acted very much like they were
>
> doing something secret, while saying they were doing all normal things.
>
>
>
>
>
> Here are some of the links needed to verify some of this stuff:
>
>
>
> ARRB Testimony of Tom Robinson:
>
> http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=711
>
>
>
> ARRB Drawing of JFK head and wounds by Robinson:
>
> http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=350&relPageId=3 (click NEXT for other drawing)
>
>
>
> ARRB testimony of Edward Reed (X-ray Tech):
>
> http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=794
>
>
>
> ARRB testimony of Dennis David:
>
> http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=708
>
>
>
> ARRB testimony of Richard Lipsey (audio file and comment):
>
> http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/HSCA_Medical_Interviews
>
>
>
> Richard Lipsey interview report:
>
> http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=349
>
>
>
> Richard Lipsey transcript (slightly modified to save space):
>
> http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/med_testimony/Lipsey_1-18-78/HSCA-Lipsey.htm
>
>
>
> Roger Boyajian after action report:
>
> http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/md236/pages/md236_0005a.gif
>
>
>
> Paul O'Connor technologist at Bethesda, testifies at Mock Trial:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDYNMlXD59o

[mainframetech]

I'll put your comments here and answer them all.

1. Oswald did the damage, the prosectors were only gathering information

about the wounds he caused.

ANS.
Nope, go read Robinson's testimony again. He specifically listed the
wounds he saw that were from the murder, and then said he had left out the
damage that the prosectors had done. Of the wounds he saw from the
murder, the most interesting one was the 'l;arge hole' in the BOH of JFK.
Here's the drawing of it that Robinson did:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=350&relPageId=4

Next, check out the testimony of Ed Reed, who saw Humes and Boswell go
at the body as soon as they got it into the morgue at around 6:40pm.
They had been waiting at the loading dock for the body to arrive to get
every second they could to do their damage to the TOP of the head BEFORE
the 'official' autopsy at 8:00pm. Ed Reed saw them using a scalpel and
also the bone saw.

2. You mean the blow-out wound he saw at the right temple that he

presumed to be an exit?

ANS.
Nope. In the word-for-word testimony, Robinson said that there was a
small wound at the right temple that was about a quarter inch across, and
it was just in the hairline. Perfect size to have been a bullet entry.
On this page and the one following:

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/md63/html/Image01.htm


3. He witnessed them using the saw to aid them. I couldn`t find this.

ANS.
On page 4 of the Robinson summary he mentions it at the top of the page:
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=711&relPageId=4

4. Bodies are cut up during autopsies. The fact that they had so many

non-essential people in the room speaks loudly that they weren`t trying
anything underhanded.

ANS.
Nope. There were NO non essential people in the room when Humes and
Boswell did their number on the head of JFK. The body arrived at 6:35pm
and Humes and Boswell were on the loading dock waiting. They went in with
the body and when they got it out of the shipping casket, they put it on
the table and Humes and Boswell wasted no time getting at the head. They
had 2 jobs, first make it look like all shots came from above and behind,
and second, find and remove any bullets that could be used to show that a
different rifle was used than the MC. They kicked out all navy personnel
from the autopsy room when they noticed Ed Reed watching what they were
doing. Only Tom Robinson was left. The crowd that later would populate
the gallery hadn't arrived, since the 'official' time for the autopsy was
set at 8:00pm, and 6:35pm was too early. So no one was around while they
did their job, except Robinson, who thought they were doing the real
autopsy when they damaged the head and removed the brain through the hole
they made. There was no complications to what they did. Just make a hole
that extended to the top of the head, yank out the brain (they were in
such a hurry that they forgot to weigh the brain, as standard step in an
autopsy), and pretend they hadn't done anything. Put the body back in the
Bronze casket that everyone expects it to be in.

As to 'underhanded', they didn't tell anyone that they had removed the
brain BEFORE the autopsy. Paul O'Connor tried to remove the brain, which
was his normal job, and he found nothing. No one told him that the brain
had already been removed, he went for years thinking there was no brain,
and that it had been blown out by a bullet. It was also obvious that
someone had done some surgery on the body BEFORE the autopsy, and so Humes
said 'it looked like someone had gotten there first and did the surgery'
and he laughed it off as a joke. Later in testimony, they pretended that
the removal of the brain was done DURING the autopsy instead of before
hand with no gallery watching.

5. I also notice he said he saw a bronze casket, but didn`t mention a
shipping carton.

ANS.
I don't know why he didn't see the Bronze casket. Of course, it wasn't
there when he first got there. It came in the back door later. He helped
bring in the mahogany casket though.

I think that was all the questions. Thank you for the opportunity to
put them out there for the crowd...:)

Chris

[mainframetech]

Amazing! You've been given the evidence and yet you continue to say
there has been no evidence. You refuse to answer questions pertinent to
the discussion and go on repeating the same questions that have been
answered. Why do you do that?

OK. Here we go all over again. First NO ONE STOLE JFK'S BODY. PLEASE
REMEMBER IT THIS TIME. The body was switched from one casket to another
supposedly to deflect the press, who would supposedly be hot on the tail
of the Bronze casket.

Next. I did NOT say that Lipsey and Wehle switched the caskets. It may
have been done on AF1 anywhere from when the Bronze casket was loaded to
when it was taken off. It is not yet known who specifically did the
switch, but we know the switch occurred. The evidence is there and has
been shown to you. You just don't like it and you have a wrong picture in
your mind that you keep getting hung up on. Wehle and Lipsey, based on
what Lipsey has said, transported the shipping casket to Bethesda from
Andrews AFB to Bethesda by hwelicopter, and then to the rear loading dock
at the morgue. If you've been following the discourse, you have seen the
proof of that.

It is false that EVERY witness except one said the body was in the
bronze casket. This has been proved to you already, but here it is again.
The people that saw JFK come out of a shipping casket were Dennis David,
Ed Reed, the person that drew the picture of the morgue layout, and Dr.
Boswell. Dennis David asked Boswell which casket JFK came out of, and
Boswell said 'you ought to know, you were there', and the way he said it,
David could tell he meant the shipping casket. Aside from that, there
were also a number of people that knew there were 2 caskets. Actually 3
caskets, if you consider the mahogany casket brought by the Gawler's crew.

Again, some of the 'entourage' of SS and FBI agents may have helped to
do the switch, because if they were given the story that they wanted to
avoid the press by leading them away with a dummy casket, the agents would
gladly help. So we don't know if any of them also knew of the switch.
The proof that the switch happened is that there were witnesses that
corroborated each other in seeing the body come out of the shipping
casket, and Lipsey's statements that the body went to the back door, while
the 'DECOY' went to the front entrance, which was the Bronze casket.

"Why did Jackie and some of JFK's closest friends and advisers go along
with it?"

I assume you mean why did they go along with the switch of caskets.
We don't know yet if they did or not. We KNOW that Jackie stepped to the
bedroom on AF1 when she first got aboard, and we KNOW she was away from
the casket also during the swearing in of LBJ. We don't know if others
stepped away, or if they helped to do the switch, but we know the switch
happened.

I don't know where you get all this 'conspiracy' junk. I seriously
doubt that anyone in the Kennedy party were conspirators, though one of
the SS agents might have been, and that would be Kellerman. He was also
on the phone to the ground making the arrangements for a helicopter at
Andrews AFB and the other arrangement to have a forklift over on the
starboard (right) side of the plane, even though Jackie and the Bronze
casket got off on the port (left) side of the plane. With all the action
on the port side with press and bronze casket, they could well have taken
the shipping casket off on the starboard side with no one the wiser. If
anyone saw it they would think it was some kind of maintenance being done
for the plane. No one was expecting a shipping casket and wouldn't have
thought twice about it.

Once again all questions have been answered, though not to the
listeners liking.

Chris

[Anthony Marsh]

Except when some General whom we are not allowed to name tells them not to
cut open the back wound.

[Bud]

Why not answer them is the standard way without taking them out of context?

>
>
> 1. Oswald did the damage, the prosectors were only gathering information
>
> about the wounds he caused.
>
>
>
> ANS.
>
> Nope, go read Robinson's testimony again.

I didn`t read it once. I looked at the source you linked to in your
initial post and compared it to the claims you were making about it. This
is the only link to information from this witness you gave in your
original post....

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=711

> He specifically listed the
>
> wounds he saw that were from the murder, and then said he had left out the
>
> damage that the prosectors had done. Of the wounds he saw from the
>
> murder, the most interesting one was the 'l;arge hole' in the BOH of JFK.
>
> Here's the drawing of it that Robinson did:
>
>
>
> http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=350&relPageId=4
>
>
>
> Next, check out the testimony of Ed Reed,

No, I was only bored enough to look at one witness.

> who saw Humes and Boswell go
>
> at the body as soon as they got it into the morgue at around 6:40pm.
>
> They had been waiting at the loading dock for the body to arrive to get
>
> every second they could to do their damage to the TOP of the head BEFORE
>
> the 'official' autopsy at 8:00pm. Ed Reed saw them using a scalpel and
>
> also the bone saw.
>
>
>
> 2. You mean the blow-out wound he saw at the right temple that he
>
> presumed to be an exit?
>
>
>
> ANS.
>
> Nope. In the word-for-word testimony, Robinson said that there was a
>
> small wound at the right temple that was about a quarter inch across, and
>
> it was just in the hairline. Perfect size to have been a bullet entry.

Actually he speculated a fragment caused that wound.

> On this page and the one following:
>
>
>
> http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/md63/html/Image01.htm
>
>
>
>
>
> 3. He witnessed them using the saw to aid them. I couldn`t find this.
>
>
>
> ANS.
>
> On page 4 of the Robinson summary he mentions it at the top of the page:
>
> http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=711&relPageId=4
>
>
>
> 4. Bodies are cut up during autopsies. The fact that they had so many
>
> non-essential people in the room speaks loudly that they weren`t trying
>
> anything underhanded.
>
>
>
> ANS.
>
> Nope. There were NO non essential people in the room when Humes and
>
> Boswell did their number on the head of JFK.

In the source you linked to Robinson was calling it a "circus".

> The body arrived at 6:35pm
>
> and Humes and Boswell were on the loading dock waiting. They went in with
>
> the body and when they got it out of the shipping casket, they put it on
>
> the table and Humes and Boswell wasted no time getting at the head. They
>
> had 2 jobs, first make it look like all shots came from above and behind,
>
> and second, find and remove any bullets that could be used to show that a
>
> different rifle was used than the MC.

Hobbyist figuring.

He did.

[Anthony Marsh]

You are being ridiculous again.
The casket was not swapped out. Stop listening to kooks.

> Next. I did NOT say that Lipsey and Wehle switched the caskets. It may
> have been done on AF1 anywhere from when the Bronze casket was loaded to
> when it was taken off. It is not yet known who specifically did the

Nothing was done on AF1. Somebody was always with the bronze casket.

> switch, but we know the switch occurred. The evidence is there and has
> been shown to you. You just don't like it and you have a wrong picture in
> your mind that you keep getting hung up on. Wehle and Lipsey, based on

You don't even know what evidence means. All you have shown are phony
stories from kooks.

> what Lipsey has said, transported the shipping casket to Bethesda from
> Andrews AFB to Bethesda by hwelicopter, and then to the rear loading dock
> at the morgue. If you've been following the discourse, you have seen the
> proof of that.
>
> It is false that EVERY witness except one said the body was in the
> bronze casket. This has been proved to you already, but here it is again.
> The people that saw JFK come out of a shipping casket were Dennis David,
> Ed Reed, the person that drew the picture of the morgue layout, and Dr.
> Boswell. Dennis David asked Boswell which casket JFK came out of, and
> Boswell said 'you ought to know, you were there', and the way he said it,
> David could tell he meant the shipping casket. Aside from that, there
> were also a number of people that knew there were 2 caskets. Actually 3
> caskets, if you consider the mahogany casket brought by the Gawler's crew.
>

Again you don't post evidence. You post guesses.

> Again, some of the 'entourage' of SS and FBI agents may have helped to
> do the switch, because if they were given the story that they wanted to
> avoid the press by leading them away with a dummy casket, the agents would
> gladly help. So we don't know if any of them also knew of the switch.
> The proof that the switch happened is that there were witnesses that
> corroborated each other in seeing the body come out of the shipping
> casket, and Lipsey's statements that the body went to the back door, while
> the 'DECOY' went to the front entrance, which was the Bronze casket.
>

More guesssing. No one was trying to avoid the press. Tha Paparazzi were
not chasing the casket. You have an overactive imagination which you
then convince yourself must be the truth.

> "Why did Jackie and some of JFK's closest friends and advisers go along
> with it?"
>
> I assume you mean why did they go along with the switch of caskets.
> We don't know yet if they did or not. We KNOW that Jackie stepped to the
> bedroom on AF1 when she first got aboard, and we KNOW she was away from
> the casket also during the swearing in of LBJ. We don't know if others
> stepped away, or if they helped to do the switch, but we know the switch
> happened.
>

And you know that Jackie told McHugh to stay with the casket at all
times and he did.

[cmikes]

It's useless to prove you wrong on these points again, Chris. The only
questions I have for you is how did you fixate on these four witnesses
that you're misreading their testimony to try to prove Lifton's theory?
Why are these four the only truthtellers, and every other witness is lying
and part of the conspiracy? How did "they" fake all the physical evidence
so that it agrees with the dozens of other witnesses, but not your
truthtellers? How much futuristic technology was involved to fake the
Zapruder and all the other films, all the autopsy photographs, and all the
autopsy X-rays well enough to fool all the experts? Why is this
testimony, mostly given after 30 years, more accurate than testimony given
immediately after the autopsy.

I don't expect realistic answers to any of these questions, but it's nice
to have a hobby.

[Bud]

I`ll allow you to name him.

[mainframetech]

A shame you keep forgetting that I'm not in line with Lifton's theory. More with Doug Horne's proofs. This suggest to me that you're not listening, only talking. Can't learn anything that way.

Other than Lipsey, who seems confused when he says some things, please show where you think I have "misread" testimony. If you're able to be detailed that way, then we can discuss it, but when you don't detail it, you can say anything and I can't directly prove anything because I don't know who or what you're talking about.

Once again I have to remind you that I've answered the question of why believe some and not other witnesses. I do NOT necessarily disbelieve witnesses. I have suggested that most were present only AFTER the damage to the skull had been done. No witness opposes the information about damaging the skull, because no witnesses (except Robinson and Reed) were present when the damage was done. Faced it, there really isn't such a big difference in witness statements. When Humes and Boswell were finished with their macabre task, they put the body back into the Bronze casket that everyone thought it was always in, and next that casket was opened at 8:00pm at the 'official' autopsy and everyone saw the body brought out of the Bronze casket, just like they thought.

I just can't see where you think there are differences in testimony.

What "physical evidence" are you speaking of when you say how was it made to agree with what people thought? Without any information, I can't give you answers.

What "futuristic technology" are you talking about? ALL fakery with the Z-film, autopsy photos and X-rays was done with ONLY available technology in 1963.

I know you won't do it, but if you read the fourth volume of Horne's ARRB tome, it will explain IN DETAIL what was done to the Z-film, naming the technology and if you look into the writings of David Mantik, PhD, you'll learn the methods used for the photos and the X-rays. Not only are the 3 X-rays copies, but there are many missing. Amazing how many pieces of critical evidence are missing in this case.

I disagree that there is a difference in testimony given at the evening of the murder and the 30 year testimony. Remember that there was a order of silence applied to all navy personnel, and the ARRB was the first time many of the witnesses were allowed by the military to speak and tell the truth. That wasn't MY decision, talk to the military that wanted to hiked pertinent facts and information about the murder.

Since you've given me very little detail to discuss with you, I assume that you don't want to discuss it or you might be swayed by facts and logic away from what you've been taught about the murder. If that changes, tell me the items that you disbelieve and what you think is the truth, and I'll be happy to help you understand my knowledge.


I can tell you won't agree, but the answers here (as far as I can make them) are realistic, I just haven't been given any information on what you're speaking about in many instances.

Chris

[mainframetech]

Yep. It's 3-4 pages of Robinson's statements. If you want other
statements, go to his word for word testimony instead of the ARRB summary.

>
>
> > He specifically listed the
>
> >
>
> > wounds he saw that were from the murder, and then said he had left out the
>
> >
>
> > damage that the prosectors had done. Of the wounds he saw from the
>
> >
>

> > murder, the most interesting one was the 'large hole' in the BOH of JFK.

>
> >
>
> > Here's the drawing of it that Robinson did:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=350&relPageId=4
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Next, check out the testimony of Ed Reed,
>
>
>
> No, I was only bored enough to look at one witness.
>

Then make no complaints about what you're reading. If you're a hobbyist
that has only a mild interest In the topic, then don't expect your
comments and questions to be answered.

Because later in the process he witnessed, the gallery was full and many people were talking to each other and commenting on anything that happened, and sending in messages of what to do and so on.

>
>
> > The body arrived at 6:35pm
>
> >
>
> > and Humes and Boswell were on the loading dock waiting. They went in with
>
> >
>
> > the body and when they got it out of the shipping casket, they put it on
>
> >
>
> > the table and Humes and Boswell wasted no time getting at the head. They
>
> >
>
> > had 2 jobs, first make it look like all shots came from above and behind,
>
> >
>
> > and second, find and remove any bullets that could be used to show that a
>
> >
>
> > different rifle was used than the MC.
>
>
>
> Hobbyist figuring.
>

Hobbyist comments. Show where the logic says otherwise. The suggestion that they were also looking for bullets was mine, but during their testimony they mentioned that they were looking for bullets or fragments as they went about 'removing the brain'.

>
>
> > They kicked out all navy personnel
>
> >
>
> > from the autopsy room when they noticed Ed Reed watching what they were
>
> >
>
> > doing. Only Tom Robinson was left. The crowd that later would populate
>
> >
>
> > the gallery hadn't arrived, since the 'official' time for the autopsy was
>
> >
>
> > set at 8:00pm, and 6:35pm was too early. So no one was around while they
>
> >
>
> > did their job, except Robinson, who thought they were doing the real
>
> >
>
> > autopsy when they damaged the head and removed the brain through the hole
>
> >
>

> > they made. There were no complications to what they did. Just make a hole

>
> >
>
> > that extended to the top of the head, yank out the brain (they were in
>
> >
>

> > such a hurry that they forgot to weigh the brain, a standard step in an

[Bud]

I didn`t. I made observations. I compared what you represented the
witness to have said and what the source you gave for that witness
differed, and commented on those differences. I pointed out some things
the witness said that seem to be problematic for you ideas, and commented
on those. Up to speed on the process?

> If you're a hobbyist
>
> that has only a mild interest In the topic,

I do only have a mild interest in what people did after Oswald killed
Kennedy.

> then don't expect your
>
> comments and questions to be answered.

How soon you forget that you were thanking me for the opportunity.

Quote him saying this was "later".

> the gallery was full and many people were talking to each other and commenting on anything that happened, and sending in messages of what to do and so on.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > > The body arrived at 6:35pm
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > and Humes and Boswell were on the loading dock waiting. They went in with
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > the body and when they got it out of the shipping casket, they put it on
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > the table and Humes and Boswell wasted no time getting at the head. They
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > had 2 jobs, first make it look like all shots came from above and behind,
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > and second, find and remove any bullets that could be used to show that a
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > different rifle was used than the MC.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Hobbyist figuring.
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> Hobbyist comments. Show where the logic says otherwise.

You aren`t employing any logic, you are playing silly games with the
evidence.

> The suggestion that they were also looking for bullets was mine,

You also invented motivations. Hobbyist figuring, which doesn`t count
for anything.

> but during their testimony they mentioned that they were looking for bullets or fragments as they went about 'removing the brain'.

Standard autopsy procedure to look for bullet fragments in a shooting
victim.