DiEugenio Denying The Obvious (Yet Again)
David Von Pein
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=16168&view=findpost&p=197093
JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:
You know, we have more people defending John McAdams here.
This deliberate planting of disinformation has all of his hallmarks.
And I doubt Fernandez knows the source material and the problem well
enough to do a trick like this.
Even the FBI knew that the name on the order not matching the name on
the box was going to be a problem. They wrote about it very soon, on
11/25. The Commission tried to say the application was lost, which it
was not. They then tried to find someone, anyone who gave a five foot
package to Oswald. No one did.
This was the problem: the post office violated two regulations in
allegedly giving the rifle to Oswald. Section 846.53a which says that
a form 2162 must be filled out whenever a firearms transaction takes
place. And since the mailer was Klein's, the post office had to know
what the box contained. Second, the regulation 355.111 reads as
follows: "Mail addressed to a person at a P. O. box who is not
authorized to recieve mail shall be endorsed addressee unknown and
returned to sender where possible."
Hidell's name is not on the form. Knowing it was from Klein's, the
rifle should have been returned.
How did the Commission get around this? Through ace BS artist Harry
Holmes. The guy who rigged his BS story about Oswald saying he was on
an upper floor to tie it in with Givens BS story. Holmes, the guy who
actually said Oswald revealed he had been in Mexico CIty while being
interrogated. Which not even David Belin bought when Holmes told him.
Holmes came up with more BS. He said that packages are treated
different than letters and the notice is placed in the box no matter
what. Which makes no sense. Since in a package you are now actually
potentially turning over not someone's correspondence, or bills, but
an item of merchandise they ordered.
Further, no 2162 form was found.
This was a serious problem for the Commission. To get around it, they
lied about is as they usually did.
Because the weight of the evidence says Oswald never picked up the
rifle.
McAdams can distort or plant wrong application forms all he wants. It
won't dilute the facts.
--------------------
DVP SAID:
But the rifle WASN'T returned to Klein's by the Dallas Post Office,
was it? No, it wasn't. Therefore, SOMEBODY must have picked it up at
the Dallas Post Office.
Let do some simple math here:
1.) We know for a fact that Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago shipped
Rifle #C2766 to "A. Hidell" at P.O. Box 2915 in Dallas, Texas, on
March 20, 1963. Waldman Exhibit No. 7, linked below, proves this fact
for all eternity. And I've yet to hear any conspiracy theorist make
the allegation that Waldman #7 is a fake. Maybe James DiEugenio will
be the first.
2.) Klein's NEVER GOT THAT RIFLE BACK after shipping it to P.O. Box
2915.
3.) There's no indication that the "Hidell" rifle package got lost in
transit between Chicago and Dallas.
4.) The "Hidell" package isn't still sitting in a "dead letter" bin
somewhere at the Dallas Post Office.
5.) Lee Harvey Oswald IS "A. Hidell". We know that. It's a proven
fact. Oswald used the alias "Hidell" many times throughout his adult
life.
6.) Lee Harvey Oswald is the person who rented P.O. Box 2915 in
Dallas. We know that. It's a proven fact. Therefore, Oswald had full
and easy access to that P.O. Box anytime he needed it.
7.) A Mannlicher-Carcano rifle with the serial number C2766 on it (and
with a palmprint of Lee Harvey Oswald's on it) was found on the sixth
floor of the TSBD on 11/22/63 and was connected via other ballistics
evidence to the assassination of President Kennedy.
-------------------
So, given the above list of things to consider (and item #7 is really
just a bonus when it comes to this particular discussion), is it more
reasonable to come to the conclusion that Jim DiEugenio and other
conspiracy theorists have come to -- i.e., Oswald never took
possession of Carcano Rifle #C2766 at all?
Or is it more reasonable to conclude that Lee Harvey Oswald, in late
March 1963, took a piece of paper that he found in P.O. Box 2915 to
the front desk at the Post Office and was given a package that
contained Mannlicher-Carcano Rifle #C2766?
Even if some postal regulations regarding the sale of firearms weren't
followed to the letter by either the Dallas Post Office or Klein's
Sporting Goods of Chicago (or both), the above list of items certainly
suggests that Lee H. Oswald did, indeed, take possession of Rifle
C2766 by picking up that gun at the Dallas Post Office. In fact, the
above list pretty much PROVES that Oswald took possession of that
rifle.
As far as I see it, the only avenue that people like Jim DiEugenio can
travel down in their constant and fruitless efforts to try and take
that rifle out of the hands of Lee Oswald is by pretending that
SOMEBODY ELSE gained access to Oswald's P.O. Box in Dallas, and that
this SOMEBODY ELSE was really the person who took possession of the
rifle that was shipped by Klein's to Hidell.
What other REALISTIC choice does DiEugenio have here (when taking my
above list into consideration)?
Does Jim want to pretend that every person involved in this Hidell
rifle transaction at Klein's Sporting Goods was a liar?
Or does Jim want to pretend that the rifle was really NEVER SHIPPED AT
ALL from Klein's in Chicago?
DiEugenio must want to pretend that Klein's never shipped it at all.
Because since we know that the Klein's package sent to Hidell was NOT
returned to Klein's in Chicago, it must mean that SOMEBODY picked up
that gun at the Dallas Post Office.
And who is more likely to have picked up something at OSWALD'S P.O.
Box -- some stranger who didn't have a key to the box, or Lee Harvey
Oswald himself?
Or, as an alternative theory that kooks like Mr. DiEugenio could
always utilize in their zeal to take the gun out of the hands of JFK's
murderer, I suppose DiEugenio could pretend that the rifle really WAS
sent back to Klein's (due to a lack of the proper firearms forms being
attached to the package), but that Klein's lied by never admitting to
the authorities that the rifle was sent back to them.
In the final analysis, no matter which alternative theory Jim
DiEugenio chooses to endorse, that theory is going to be much sillier
and highly improbable than the truth -- with that truth being:
Lee Harvey Oswald, using his alias A. Hidell, took possession of
Mannlicher-Carcano Rifle #C2766 by picking it up at the Dallas Post
Office in late March of 1963.
Conspiracy theorists like James DiEugenio, of course, always have a
hard time figuring out the simplest of truths. Heck, Jim can't even
figure out that Lee Oswald shot and killed JFK and J.D. Tippit.
DiEugenio, instead, prefers to pretend that Oswald didn't shoot
anybody on November 22, 1963.
Silly, isn't it?
David Von Pein
July 11, 2010
John McAdams
wrote:
What a kook.
As far as I know, he has never even tried to refute the fact that
Oswald's handwriting was on order coupon, and return address section
of the envelope, and the money order.
So if the rifle was ordered by Oswald and ended up in Oswald's hands,
I supposed DiEugenio could claim that some co-conspirator picked up
the rifle and then gave it to Oswald.
But why posit an utterly unnecessary co-conspirator of whom there is
no evidence, and for whom there is no need.
.John
--------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
Bill Kelly
> http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=16168&view=find...
>
> JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:
>
> You know, we have more people defending John McAdams here.
>
BK: Hi DVP, how ya doin'? Why bring Jimmy D's thread here and respond
to it where he won't see it? Why don't you just join the Ed Forum and
correct him directly? Are you afraid of him, or like John McAdams, are
you afraid CTs will insult, ridicule and attack you?
> This deliberate planting of disinformation has all of his hallmarks.
> And I doubt Fernandez knows the source material and the problem well
> enough to do a trick like this.
BK: I disagree with Jimmy D here, that McAdams is a disinformation
agent, as that is defined as someone who advances false information on
behalf of an intelligence agency or department, and I don't think
McAdams intentionally advances such disinformation intentionally, like
Gus Russo does. Now that's disinformation, as it can be shown to
originate from an intelligence agency source. McAdams is just a 20%
who doesn't recognize that the other 80% of the people who understand
that what happened at Dealey Plaza was a conspiracy are the normal
ones, as he puts it.
BK: Agreed. Somebody picked up the rifle in the package at the Post
Office where it was delivered to PO box 2915, but it wasn't Oswald,
who was working that day at Jaggers/Chiles/Stoval.
>
> Let do some simple math here:
>
> 1.) We know for a fact that Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago shipped
> Rifle #C2766 to "A. Hidell" at P.O. Box 2915 in Dallas, Texas, on
> March 20, 1963. Waldman Exhibit No. 7, linked below, proves this fact
> for all eternity. And I've yet to hear any conspiracy theorist make
> the allegation that Waldman #7 is a fake. Maybe James DiEugenio will
> be the first.
BK: Who cares what CTs think or say, their opinions don't have to be
involved in the detection of the true evidence, you're the one who
brings them in and muddies the waters. Just leave the CTs and what
they think out of it and stick to what is known. But no, I understand,
you can't think for yoruself and can only consider the evidence in
light of what CT idiots have to say about it. That's your problem, not
Jimmy Ds.
>
> http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc151/David_Von_Pein/MISCELLANEOUS...
>
> 2.) Klein's NEVER GOT THAT RIFLE BACK after shipping it to P.O. Box
> 2915.
>
> 3.) There's no indication that the "Hidell" rifle package got lost in
> transit between Chicago and Dallas.
>
> 4.) The "Hidell" package isn't still sitting in a "dead letter" bin
> somewhere at the Dallas Post Office
BK: But there was a package that WAS sent to the dead letter bin, a
package with brown wrapping paper in it similar to the wrapping paper
that the alledged assassin stole from the TSBD paper wrapping station
and took to the Paines residence in Irving on the night before the
assassination, which is used by LNs as an indication of motive and
intent to move the rifle to TSBD and kill the President. What was that
dead letter bin package all about? I could never figure that one out.
>
> 5.) Lee Harvey Oswald IS "A. Hidell". We know that. It's a proven
> fact. Oswald used the alias "Hidell" many times throughout his adult
> life.
>
BK: Many times? Let's see, he used it on the order for the rifle, (and
pistol), and he used it on the fake vacanation forum he made up in New
Orleans and used to get a visa to Mexico City, and he used it on the
Selective Service ID he made up. When else did he use it if it was
"many times throughout his adult life" ? He was only 24 years old so
what do you mean his whole adult life?
His other, popular alias was O.H. Lee, which he used to register at
the hotel in Mexico City, to register at the YMCA in October 63 and at
his rooming house in Oak Cliff. So he only uses Hidel to order
firearms, and O. H. Lee to register as a temporary residence?
> 6.) Lee Harvey Oswald is the person who rented P.O. Box 2915 in
> Dallas. We know that. It's a proven fact. Therefore, Oswald had full
> and easy access to that P.O. Box anytime he needed it.
>
BK: Yes, he used it first to get his last check from Leslie Welding in
October 1962, and he used it again in March 1963 to obtain the pistol
and the rifle, but there's no evidence he used the name "Hidel" as a
possible recipent of any mail or packages to the box, as he did later
in a PO box in New Orleans. And nobody at the Post Office recalls
handing him the rifle or pistol pacages to him over the counter and
getting his recipt for them, or what happened to the recipt? And since
he was working at J/C/S that day, maybe somebody else did pick up
those packages for him. There are reports of two keys being handed
over for the box, and Oswald did use the address of Gary and Alexandra
DeMohrenchildt on the application for the box, so did either of them
have the other key or have access to the box, since they had the same
address Oswald put on the application? I don't know, I'm just asking.
But if the PO employee is going to give a package with a rifle and a
pistol sent to someone named A.J. Hidel but sent to a PO Box owned by
LHO, why won't they give the same package to somone who has the same
address as that listed on the application?
> 7.) A Mannlicher-Carcano rifle with the serial number C2766 on it (and
> with a palmprint of Lee Harvey Oswald's on it) was found on the sixth
> floor of the TSBD on 11/22/63 and was connected via other ballistics
> evidence to the assassination of President Kennedy.
>
BK: Yea, and its a shame you can't get the rifle from the Paines
garage to the TSBD, put it together, hide it for four hours, obtain a
sling, bullets and a clip for it without any records or witnesses, and
put it in the hands of Lee Harvey Oswald, and put LHO at the Sixth
Floor Sniper's Nest window at 12:30 pm on 11/22/63, or you might have
case against him.
> So, given the above list of things to consider (and item #7 is really
> just a bonus when it comes to this particular discussion), is it more
> reasonable to come to the conclusion that Jim DiEugenio and other
> conspiracy theorists have come to -- i.e., Oswald never took
> possession of Carcano Rifle #C2766 at all?
>
BK: Well, the only people known to have actually seen the rifle were
Marina, George DeMohrenschildt and Michael Paine, who only saw the
backyard photo, if that counts. Those incidents at rifle ranges seem
to be either a case of mistaken identify or someone impersonating
Oswald.
> Or is it more reasonable to conclude that Lee Harvey Oswald, in late
> March 1963, took a piece of paper that he found in P.O. Box 2915 to
> the front desk at the Post Office and was given a package that
> contained Mannlicher-Carcano Rifle #C2766?
>
BK: Yea, that would be easy to conclude if you could account for the
fact that he was supposed to be at work at J/C/S that day, and that no
one at the Post Office actually recalls handing the accused assassin
of the President the packages.
> Even if some postal regulations regarding the sale of firearms weren't
> followed to the letter by either the Dallas Post Office or Klein's
> Sporting Goods of Chicago (or both), the above list of items certainly
> suggests that Lee H. Oswald did, indeed, take possession of Rifle
> C2766 by picking up that gun at the Dallas Post Office. In fact, the
> above list pretty much PROVES that Oswald took possession of that
> rifle.
BK: It might PROVE it in your mind, but then again, your opinion is
not forensic evidence that can be admitted into a court of law, and
other more open minded people would like to know exactly how the
accused assassin of the President obtained the rifle he ordered from
the Post Office, and where he got the sling, the clip and ammo he is
accused of using the kill the President, and actually putting the
rifle in his hands at the time of the assassination, which hasn't yet
been done.
> As far as I see it, the only avenue that people like Jim DiEugenio can
> travel down in their constant and fruitless efforts to try and take
> that rifle out of the hands of Lee Oswald is by pretending that
> SOMEBODY ELSE gained access to Oswald's P.O. Box in Dallas, and that
> this SOMEBODY ELSE was really the person who took possession of the
> rifle that was shipped by Klein's to Hidell.
>
BK: Well you haven't yet put the rifle in the hands of Oswald at the
Post Office, since he's at work that day, and nobodys pretending
anything, just determining what the possibilities are, and one of the
possibilities is that someone other than Oswald picked up the rifle
and pistol at the Post Office.
> What other REALISTIC choice does DiEugenio have here (when taking my
> above list into consideration)?
BK: REgardless of what Jimmy D and other CTs believe, the REALISTIC
choice is that someone other than Oswald picked up the rifle and
pistol at the Post Office.
>
> Does Jim want to pretend that every person involved in this Hidell
> rifle transaction at Klein's Sporting Goods was a liar?
>
BK: Other than Postal Inspector Holmes, who most certainly perjured
himself if he said that the recipts for the PO box application and
recipt for pick up of the packages were "routinely destroyed" when
such records are routinely kept for at least two years, who else is
accused of lying? Everyone is working on the same records, evidence
and witnesses that you are, just coming to different conclusions.
> Or does Jim want to pretend that the rifle was really NEVER SHIPPED AT
> ALL from Klein's in Chicago?
>
> DiEugenio must want to pretend that Klein's never shipped it at all.
> Because since we know that the Klein's package sent to Hidell was NOT
> returned to Klein's in Chicago, it must mean that SOMEBODY picked up
> that gun at the Dallas Post Office.
>
> And who is more likely to have picked up something at OSWALD'S P.O.
> Box -- some stranger who didn't have a key to the box, or Lee Harvey
> Oswald himself?
>
BK: I've already suggested that Gary Taylor or his wife,
DeMohrenschildt's daughter, whose legal address is on the PO box
application, could have picked up the packages as easy as someone else
NOT named Hidell.
> Or, as an alternative theory that kooks like Mr. DiEugenio
BK; DVP, I resent your calling Jimmy D a Kook, as he might be a
conspiracy theorists, or misguided, or a progressive liberal, but he's
not a Kook. And neither was Oswald.
could
> always utilize in their zeal to take the gun out of the hands of JFK's
> murderer,
BK: The gun was in the hands of JFK's murderer, it just wasn't
Oswald.
I suppose DiEugenio could pretend that the rifle really WAS
> sent back to Klein's (due to a lack of the proper firearms forms being
> attached to the package), but that Klein's lied by never admitting to
> the authorities that the rifle was sent back to them.
>
BK: Jimmy D doesn't accuse anyone other than PO Inspector Holmes of
lying, as far as I know, and the fact that the packages sent to Hidel
at Oswald's PO box were not sent back is evidence that PO regulations
were not followed and someone other than Oswald picked them up.
> In the final analysis, no matter which alternative theory Jim
> DiEugenio chooses to endorse, that theory is going to be much sillier
> and highly improbable than the truth -- with that truth being:
>
> Lee Harvey Oswald, using his alias A. Hidell, took possession of
> Mannlicher-Carcano Rifle #C2766 by picking it up at the Dallas Post
> Office in late March of 1963.
BK: You seem to have this vision of Oswald doing that, but it's only
in your mind, and not recorded on any document or seen by any
witness.
> Conspiracy theorists like James DiEugenio, of course, always have a
> hard time figuring out the simplest of truths.
BK: The simple truth is that LHO was set up as the Patsy in the
assassination of the President and the mail order rifle and PO records
were wrongfully used to that affect.
Heck, Jim can't even
> figure out that Lee Oswald shot and killed JFK and J.D. Tippit.
> DiEugenio, instead, prefers to pretend that Oswald didn't shoot
> anybody on November 22, 1963.
>
> Silly, isn't it?
>
> David Von Pein
> July 11, 2010
BK: David, you're the only one being silly here.
Bill Kelly
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
COME ON DAVID, DON'T GIVE UP SO EASY. SHOW ME WHERE I'M WRONG. YOU HIJACK
A THREAD FROM THE ED FORUM, AS REITZE HAS DONE WITH SOME OF MY POSTS, AND
A HALF DOZEN OTHERS HAVE DONE, AND NOW YOU DON'T WANT TO CONTINUE THE
DISCUSSION.
YOU'RE WORSE THAN A LIBERAL WHO LIVES THE ROOM WHEN THE REAL FIGHT BEGINS.
BILL KELLY
David Von Pein
>>> "Hi DVP, how ya doin'? Why bring Jimmy D's thread here and respond to it where he won't see it? Why don't you just join the Ed Forum and correct him directly?" <<<
You should know the answer to that question, Bill. You've been a
member of Simkin's conspiracy house since October 20, 2005. I joined
the Education Forum in July 2006, and was booted out the door after a
whopping four days. Ask John Simkin why that happened.
>>> "Agreed. Somebody picked up the rifle in the package at the Post Office where it was delivered to PO box 2915, but it wasn't Oswald, who was working that day at Jaggers/Chiles/Stoval [sic]." <<<
We have no idea exactly what day Oswald picked up his rifle at the
post office. Why are you pretending to know this type of unknowable
information, Bill?
We know that Klein's shipped the rifle to Hidell/(Oswald) on March 20,
1963. And we know that Oswald had the rifle in his possession by at
least Sunday, March 31, 1963 (for the backyard photo session).
But that's all we know about the precise dates (and even the March
31st date is a little bit up in the air; Marina was able to pin it
down somewhat during her Warren Commission testimony, and the
Commission thought that the pictures were most likely taken on
3/31/63).
So, please inform the masses, William Kelly, as to how you are privy
to such detailed information about the pick-up date at the post office
for Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano rifle. And, for that matter, that goes
for Oswald's Smith & Wesson revolver too. We don't have any idea when
exactly Oswald picked up that revolver at the post office. Nor do we
know if Oswald picked up both weapons on the same day.
But, somehow, Bill Kelly's crystal ball is telling him things that
nobody else on Planet Earth has been privy to in 46+ years. Amazing
indeed.
>>> "Regardless of what Jimmy D and other CTs believe, the REALISTIC choice is that someone other than Oswald picked up the rifle and pistol at the Post Office." <<<
Oh, sure Bill. Sure. Even though both of those weapons were positively
ORDERED BY LEE OSWALD, which means (obviously) that LEE OSWALD HIMSELF
would have been expecting them to arrive at the P.O. Box that HE HAD
THEM MAILED TO....you still think that it's more "realistic" to
believe that "someone other than Oswald picked up the rifle and pistol
at the Post Office".
Brilliant deductive reasoning there, William. Just brilliant!
So, if I order a gun from a mail-order house, and have it shipped to a
P.O. Box at my local post office here in Indiana (a P.O. Box that I AM
RENTING AT THE TIME and a P.O. Box that I SPECIFIED FOR THE GUN TO BE
MAILED TO), according to William Kelly's logic and reasoning, it's
much more likely that SOMEBODY ELSE went to the post office and picked
up that gun instead of the person who ordered it and would have been
expecting it to arrive at his P.O. Box within just a few days.
Gotta love CTer reasoning. It's always weird. And dead wrong. But it
sure provides the humor.
>>> "DVP, I resent your calling Jimmy D a Kook, as he might be a conspiracy theorist, or misguided, or a progressive liberal, but he's not a Kook." <<<
Yes, he is a kook. And I don't care whether you "resent" my opinion
about Jimmy or not. A kook is a kook. And when it comes to the JFK
assassination, Jim DiEugenio is certainly a kook.
My definition of a "JFK Conspiracy Kook" hasn't changed over the
years, It's still the same. The definition I almost always go by is
this one:
JFK CONSPIRACY KOOK (noun) -- A person who believes that Lee Harvey
Oswald was innocent of shooting BOTH President John F. Kennedy AND
Dallas Police Officer J.D. Tippit on November 22, 1963.
Anyone who falls into the above category, given the evidence in the
JFK case, is most definitely worthy of being labelled a "kook" in my
book. (Particularly someone with James DiEugenio's encyclopedic
knowledge concerning the evidence in the JFK case.)
BTW, the Merriam-Webster definition of "kook" applies to all of the
"JFK Conspiracy Kooks" of the world too:
KOOK (noun) -- "One whose ideas or actions are eccentric, fantastic,
or insane: screwball."