Officer Baker
quid
regarding Officer Baker. 1: He ran into Lee coming down the stairs and 2: He
ran into Lee in the lunch room on the 2nd floor. Did both happen or what? I
am confused on that issue.
quid
Ron Judge
***Officer Baker said that he came up the stairs to the second floor and
saw someone through the window in the vestibule door leading into the
lunch room. He walked into the lunch room and confonted Lee Oswald. Roy
Truly followed Baker in and identified Oswald as one of his employees.
***Ron Judge
Martin Shackelford
Oswald was simply approaching the pop machine, or whether he had already
purchased a pop and was drinking it when Baker arrived, which would have
required additional time. The detail that Oswald had the bottle in his
hand was deleted from a Baker written statement.
Martin
tomnln
oswald.
NONE of which were Possible.
PLUS, It means that Baker LIED a Minimumof THREE (3) Times.
"Martin Shackelford" <msh...@concentric.net> wrote in message
news:bt85ma$c...@dispatch.concentric.net...
Glenn Sarlitto
That's a good point on Oswald and the "pop". (Is that what they called it in
Texas? I know they call it differently around the country, like "soda pop")
I always was under the impression he had the bottle in his hand
>"... the detail that Oswald had the bottle in his hand was deleted from a
Baker written statement."
When was that deleted? Or was it not mentioned in the first place.
Glenn
Barb Junkkarinen
wrote:
Hi Glenn,
Baker mentioned neither the coke NOR the lunchroom in his original
statement. In that statement he said he encountered a guy in a tan
coat on the 3rd or 4th floor.
It was not until September '64, as the WC was wrapping up, that a
handwritten Baker statement was signed .... it's in the handwriting of
an FBI agent, but Baker signed it. He also crossed out and initialed
the mention of Oswald having a coke when he encountered him.
Baker's affidavits have been posted before and there was long
discussion on this a few years ago ... you might do an advanced google
groups search ... if you put in me as author and search words like
Baker statement ... or some such thing, you should come up with
several long threads. There was some more recent discussion as well.
Bests,
Barb :-)
Martin Shackelford
Martin
Martin Shackelford
Fall of 1964--his fourth statement on the subject. There is a reference
to Oswald having the bottle in his hand. That is crossed out, and Baker
initialed the deletion.
Martin
DRoberdeau
....Good Day.... One important consideration, that Ron may have forgotten to
mention, is that when BAKER first placed his feet on the second-floor landing,
the actual FIRST thing he visually noticed (and testified to), is that Mr.
TRULY had ALREADY covered the distance, MANY feet in front of BAKER, leading
from the second-floor stairwell, to the steps leading up to the third-floor.
AFTER visually noticing that TRULY was well ahead of him, BAKER, his eyes still
scanning, THEN was attracted to movement in the lunchroom vestibule....
....yet, Mr. TRULY, approximately the same distance away from BAKER, as BAKER
was to OSWALD in the instant that BAKER was attracted to see the vestibule
movement, SAW NO ONE, and was NOT attracted to a closing vestibule door when
Mr. TRULY MOVED TOWARDS, then PASSED, the SAME VESTIBULE DOOR, SEVERAL SECONDS
AHEAD OF BAKER. There are several implications and important considerations
related to this fact.
On the following scaled floor plan of the TSBD second-floor available for all,
I have diagrammed the TRULY, BAKER, OSWALD relative positions to each other,
when each was at the same timestamped instant:
http://members.aol.com/DRoberdeau/JFK/TRULYtrap.gif
Don
CV-67, "Big John," USS John F. Kennedy Plank Walker
Sooner, or later, the Truth emerges Clearly
http://members.aol.com/DRoberdeau/JFK/DP.jpg
http://members.aol.com/DRoberdeau/JFK/ROSEwillisANNOUNCEMENT.html
http://members.aol.com/DRoberdeau/JFK/BONDphotosTIMESTAMPINGarnold.html
T ogether
E veryone
A chieves
M ore
"Well, to me, it sounded high, and I immediately kind of looked up, and I had a
feeling that it came from the building, either right in front of me (TSBD), or,
of the one across to the right of it (DAL-TEX)." (my INSERTIONS)
----MARRION L. BAKER, DPD motorcycleman & President KENNEDY escortman,
describing for the very first time in his warrenatti-testimony where he thought
the audible muzzle blasts and/or mechanically suppress fired bullet bow
shockwave that he remembered hearing had originated from
quid
quid
>
> Baker mentioned neither the coke NOR the lunchroom in his original
> statement. In that statement he said he encountered a guy in a tan
> coat on the 3rd or 4th floor.
What was Truly's FIRST statement on the location?
Barb Junkkarinen
>Can you tell me what his FIRST statement was?
Here it is:
BEGIN:
AFFIDAVIT IN ANY FACT
THE STATE OF TEXAS
COUNTY OF DALLAS
BEFORE ME, Mary Rattan, a Notary Public in and for
said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared M. L.
Baker, Patrolman Dallas Police Department who, after being by me duly
sworn, on oath deposes and says:
Friday November 22, 1963 I was riding motorcycle
escort for the President of the United States. At approximately
12:30 pm I was on Houston Street and the President's car had made a
left turn from Houston onto Elm Street. Just as I approached Elm
Street and Houston I heard three shots. I realized those shots
were rifle shots and I began to try to figure out where they came
from. I decided the shots had come from the building on the
northwest corner of Elm and Houston. This building is used by the
Board of Education for book storage. I jumped off my motor and ran
inside the building. As I entered the door I saw
several people standing around. I asked these people
where the stairs were. A man stepped forward and stated he was the
building manager and that he would show me where the stairs were. I
followed the man to the rear of the building and he said, "Let's take
the elevator." The elevator was hung several floors up so we used the
stairs instead. As we reached the third or fourth floor I
saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called
to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager
said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose
and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man
approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair
and wearing a light brown jacket.
/s/ M. L. Baker
SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN BEFORE ME THIS 22 DAY OF
November A.D. 1963
s/ Mary Rattan
Notary Public, Dallas County, Texas
END
Barb :-)
---"Our intention, is not to establish the point with
complete accuracy, but merely to substantiate the
hypothesis which underlies the conclusion that
Oswald was the sole assassin."
(Redlich memo to Rankin, 4/64)
Glenn Sarlitto
> What was Truly's FIRST statement on the location?
Can't remember the exact. Will get back to you with it, unless somebody
else is able to before I do.
But Truly did state something to the effect that Oswald was an employee
and Baker took it as that and immediately proceeded up the stairs to the
rooftop as quickly as possible. Baker didn't give it a second thought. No
need to at that point in questioning Oswald. I for one would have done the
same thing. You have to realize that when he heard the shots he saw
pigeons flying away from the rooftop and that was his primary goal. To
reach the rooftop. Don't quote me on that yet or rely on my history
knowledge. I'll get back to you with more exact. Although you will
definitely find it in the WC report.
Regards,
Glenn
John Hill
Here's something I wrote a few years ago, with a few revisions.
Truly on Second Floor Landing
Based on statements, Truly was stepping off the 2nd floor landing onto the
stairs going to the 3rd floor when Baker was stepping off the stairs from
the 1st floor onto the 2nd floor landing. Given that the distance across
the landing (stairs to stairs) is approx. 17 feet that means that Truly
was about 17 feet ahead of Baker. That suggests a few things. 1) That
Oswald had 17 fewer feet to get into the lunchroom before Truly would have
seen him, as opposed to Baker. 2) That if Baker saw Oswald just inside the
lunchroom door, walking away, and if we take the LNT position that Oswald
had just passed through that door on his way down from the 6th floor, it
seems rather odd that Truly, who was 17 feet ahead of Baker, didn't see or
hear Oswald coming down the stairs, or walking across the landing, or
opening the vestibule door, or stepping through the vestibule door, or the
vestibule door closing, or Oswald walking the few feet between the
vestibule and lunchroom doors, or Oswald opening the lunchroom door, or
Oswald stepping through the lunchroom door. The distance between the 2
doors was less than the 17 feet Truly was ahead of Baker. If Baker saw him
not very far inside the lunchroom door (the distance between that point
and the vestibule door being fewer than or equal to 17 feet) Oswald would
have been stepping through the vestibule door when Truly arrived on the
landing 17 feet ahead of Baker.
The shortest distance from the lunchroom door, through the vestibule door,
to the bottom most step leading from the second floor landing to the third
floor, is 26 feet. This means for Oswald to have been JUST entirely inside
the lunchroom door he had to have covered approx. 26 feet immediately
before Baker saw him. Truly was 17 feet ahead of Baker. This means Oswald
would have first stepped off the stairs onto the landing about 9 feet
before Truly, placing him smack dab in the middle of the landing when
Truly reaches that landing. Yet Truly didn't see or hear Oswald.
Of course, there's the argument that Oswald was moving significantly
faster than Truly so that he could have covered the 26 feet fast enough to
be past the vestibule door before Truly arrived at the landing. But then I
think we run into the noise problem. The stairs were wooden. A man running
down such stairs would make a fair amount of noise. Yet Truly, ahead of
Baker, heard no movement at all. Opening and closing doors might well make
some noise, yet Truly heard no such sounds. Moving across the landing
and/or between the vestibule and lunchroom doors might well make some
noise, especially if traveling at a relatively high rate of speed, yet
Truly heard nothing.
And if Oswald had hurried down the stairs so quickly that he was in the
lunchroom before Truly ever reached the landing, we need then to think
about how he was calm and not breathing even a little bit hard when
encountered by Baker a few seconds later. This also gives him less time to
make the trip down to the lunchroom.
There’s also the issue of where Baker first saw Oswald. If he saw Oswald
just inside the lunchroom door, walking away from it, yet Truly, 17 feet
ahead, didn’t see or hear Oswald going through either door, then we’re
left with Oswald making it through the 2 doors before Truly got close
enough to see or hear him yet then stopping just inside the inner door and
waiting for Baker to catch up.
The timing, the distances, the silence and Truly's statements don't seem
to fit for Oswald to have just come down from floors above.
--
John Hill (joisa)
John Hill
news:3ff7...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
> Baker gave FOUR (4) Different accounts of the lunchroom encounter with
> oswald.
Was it 4 different statements with relatively minor discrepencies, or 4
different statements with discrepencies great enough that they precluded
the other 3 statements being true?
> NONE of which were Possible.
>
> PLUS, It means that Baker LIED a Minimumof THREE (3) Times.
Can you direct me to a location where I can read all 4 Baker statements?
--
John Hill (joisa)
John Hill
> Yes--the crossed out line was in the fourth statement.
Was there, in any of the 1st 3 statements, anything about Oswald having a
Coke or some such?
--
John Hill (joisa)
John Hill
news:3ff7...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
> Martin,
>
> That's a good point on Oswald and the "pop". (Is that what they called it in
> Texas?
We've always referred to ALL soft drinks as "cokes." The conversation goes
like this:
"Do you want a coke?"
"Yeah."
"What kind, Dr. Pepper, 7-Up, RC?"
--
John Hill (joisa)
John Hill
news:qsofvv4agatnvsrct...@4ax.com...
> On 4 Jan 2004 02:43:01 -0500, "Glenn Sarlitto" <gsar...@wi.rr.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Martin,
> >
> >That's a good point on Oswald and the "pop". (Is that what they called it in
> >Texas? I know they call it differently around the country, like "soda pop")
> >
> >I always was under the impression he had the bottle in his hand
> >
> >>"... the detail that Oswald had the bottle in his hand was deleted from a
> >Baker written statement."
> >
> >When was that deleted? Or was it not mentioned in the first place.
> >
> >Glenn
>
> Hi Glenn,
>
> Baker mentioned neither the coke NOR the lunchroom in his original
> statement. In that statement he said he encountered a guy in a tan
> coat on the 3rd or 4th floor.
Well, doesn't this kind of blow the whole Baker and Oswald in the
lunchroom story? And, if he didn't mention a coke or the lunchroom but DID
mention a man in a tan coat, does that also mean he did NOT mention Oswald
in his original statement?
> It was not until September '64, as the WC was wrapping up, that a
> handwritten Baker statement was signed .... it's in the handwriting of
> an FBI agent, but Baker signed it. He also crossed out and initialed
> the mention of Oswald having a coke when he encountered him.
>
> Baker's affidavits have been posted before and there was long
> discussion on this a few years ago ... you might do an advanced google
> groups search ... if you put in me as author and search words like
> Baker statement ... or some such thing, you should come up with
> several long threads.
Thanks for the direction.
--
John Hill (joisa)
Barb Junkkarinen
wrote:
>Quid,
Hi Glenn,
I posted the whole thing for him. You remember pretty well except that
the difference between the 11-22 statement and by the time of the last
statement in September '64, Oswald had lost a tan coat and fallen one
to two stories into the lunchroom.<g>
Bests,
Barb :-)
Barb Junkkarinen
Hi John,
The 11-22 statement is at:
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/baker_m3.htm
The 8-11-64 statement is at:
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/baker_m2.htm
His testimony is at:
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/baker_m1.htm
It's been several years since I read it, but I don't think they
brought up his statements ... 11-22 vs 9/24/64.
CE3076, the handwritten statement from 9-23-64 is at:
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh26/html/WH_Vol26_0358a.htm
A pretty poor copy -- but thar it is.
You can also go to the Dallas city archives JFK collection at:
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/index.html
Scroll down and click on the index .... there'll be a whole list of
references to Baker. Note the three numbers ... first one indicates
the box, second one indicates the folder, third one indicates the item
in that folder.
Then start checking the boxes!
I'm not about the fourth statement, maybe somebody else can clue us
both in.
Barb Junkkarinen
>"Barb Junkkarinen" <bar...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
>news:qsofvv4agatnvsrct...@4ax.com...
>> On 4 Jan 2004 02:43:01 -0500, "Glenn Sarlitto" <gsar...@wi.rr.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Martin,
>> >
>> >That's a good point on Oswald and the "pop". (Is that what they called it in
>> >Texas? I know they call it differently around the country, like "soda pop")
>> >
>> >I always was under the impression he had the bottle in his hand
>> >
>> >>"... the detail that Oswald had the bottle in his hand was deleted from a
>> >Baker written statement."
>> >
>> >When was that deleted? Or was it not mentioned in the first place.
>> >
>> >Glenn
>>
>> Hi Glenn,
>>
>> Baker mentioned neither the coke NOR the lunchroom in his original
>> statement. In that statement he said he encountered a guy in a tan
>> coat on the 3rd or 4th floor.
>
>Well, doesn't this kind of blow the whole Baker and Oswald in the
>lunchroom story? And, if he didn't mention a coke or the lunchroom but DID
>mention a man in a tan coat, does that also mean he did NOT mention Oswald
>in his original statement?
One would wonder .... though in his WC testiimony he says it looked
like a tan jacket to him over some sort of white shirt. I just replied
to your other post in this thread and gave directions to the Baker
statements and testimony so you can see them for yourself ... I don't
know about the fourth one though ... maybe somebody else can point us
both to that.
Bests,
Barb :-)
Ken West
What do you (all) in Texas call that drink made by the Coca Cola
corporation?
Ken West
John Hill
> statement. In that statement he said he encountered a guy in a tan
> coat on the 3rd or 4th floor.
>
> It was not until September '64, as the WC was wrapping up, that a
> handwritten Baker statement was signed .... it's in the handwriting of
> an FBI agent, but Baker signed it. He also crossed out and initialed
> the mention of Oswald having a coke when he encountered him.
>
> Baker's affidavits have been posted before and there was long
> discussion on this a few years ago ... you might do an advanced google
> groups search ... if you put in me as author and search words like
> Baker statement ... or some such thing, you should come up with
> several long threads. There was some more recent discussion as well.
>
> Bests,
> Barb :-)
Hi Barb,
I found Baker's 11/22 affidavit. Here it is:
<QUOTE>
AFFIDAVIT IN ANY FACT
THE STATE OF TEXAS
COUNTY OF DALLAS
BEFORE ME, Mary Rattan
a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day
personally appeared
M. L. Baker, Patrolman Dallas Police Department
Who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says:
Friday November 22, 1963 I was riding motorcycle escort for the President
of the United States. At approximately 12:30 pm I was on Houston Street
and the President's car had made a left turn from Houston onto Elm Street.
Just as I approached Elm and Houston I heard three shots. I realized these
shots were rifle shots and I began to try to figure out where they came
from. I decided the shots had come from the building on the northwest
corner of Elm and Houston. This building is used by the Board of Education
for book storage. I jumped off my motor and ran inside the building. As I
entered the door I saw several people standing around. I asked these
people where the stairs were. A man stepped forward and stated he was the
building manager and that he would show me where the stairs were. I
followed the man to the rear of the building and he said, "Let's take the
elevator." The elevator was hung several floors up so we used the stairs
instead. As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away
from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back
toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then
turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a
white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and
wearing a light brown jacket. M. L. Baker (signature)
SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN TO BEFORE ME THIS 22 DAY OF November A.D. 1963
Mary Rattan (signature) Mary Rattan (typed)
Notary Public, Dallas County, Texas
CPS-GF-413 (form number)
<UNQUOTE>
Points to discuss [my initial comments in brackets]:
1) Baker says he encountered the man on the 3rd or 4th floor, not the 2nd.
[On 11/22 he could have easily been confused about which floor.]
2) Baker says the man was walking away from the stairway, not away from
any door. [I guess walking away from the lunchroom door is "walking away
from the stairway," but it sounds more like the man was walking away from
the stairs with no doors involved.]
3) Baker says nothing about seeing the man through any window. [It seems
to me a fairly important point that he later said he saw the man through
two windows in two doors, but didn't mention it here.]
4) Baker says nothing about any lunchroom. [I think this is a VERY
important point. A man walking away from the stairs and a man having
walked through two doors across a vestibule and into a lunchroom strikes
me as two rather distinctly different things - a difference worth
mentioning.]
5) Oswald was significantly fewer than 165 pounds. [A loose jacket could
leave the impression of more weight.]
6) What color was the jacket Oswald wore to work that morning? [I have no
idea.]
Thanks,
--
John Hill (joisa)
Barb Junkkarinen
Agreed.
>
>2) Baker says the man was walking away from the stairway, not away from
>any door. [I guess walking away from the lunchroom door is "walking away
>from the stairway," but it sounds more like the man was walking away from
>the stairs with no doors involved.]
He didn't mention any at least.
>
>3) Baker says nothing about seeing the man through any window. [It seems
>to me a fairly important point that he later said he saw the man through
>two windows in two doors, but didn't mention it here.]
Agreed.
>
>4) Baker says nothing about any lunchroom. [I think this is a VERY
>important point. A man walking away from the stairs and a man having
>walked through two doors across a vestibule and into a lunchroom strikes
>me as two rather distinctly different things - a difference worth
>mentioning.]
Agreed.
>
>5) Oswald was significantly fewer than 165 pounds. [A loose jacket could
>leave the impression of more weight.]
Agreed.
>
>6) What color was the jacket Oswald wore to work that morning? [I have no
>idea.]
From Frazier's WC testimony....
QUOTE
Mr. BALL - Can I have this marked as Commission Exhibit 368, the
diagram just drawn by the witness to illustrate his work on the sixth
floor?
The CHAIRMAN - It may be marked.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 368, for
identification.)
Mr. BALL - I have here Commission's 163, a gray blue jacket. Do you
recognize this jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I don't.
Mr. BALL - Did you ever see Lee Oswald wear this jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I don't believe I have.
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I don't believe I have because most time I
noticed when Lee had it, I say he put off his shirt and just wear a
T-shirt the biggest part of the time so really what shirt he wore that
day I really didn't see it or didn't pay enough attention to it
whether he did have a shirt on.
Mr. BALL - On that day you did notice one article of clothing, that
is, he had a jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - What color was the jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER - It was a gray, more or less flannel, wool-looking type
of jacket that I had seen him wear and that is the type of jacket he
had on that morning.
Mr. BALL - Did it have a zipper on it?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; it was one of the zipper types.
Mr. BALL - It isn't one of these two zipper jackets we have shown?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir.
Mr. BALL - Do you know what kind of trousers he had on, what color?
Mr. FRAZIER - Not that day, I don't remember.
Mr. BALL - You wouldn't remember that day?
Mr. FRAZIER - I had seen him wear some gray ones before.
Mr. BALL - Here is Commission's Exhibit No. 157 which are gray
trousers. Had you ever seen him wear these?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes; to be frank with you, I had seen something more or
less of that order, that type of material, but so far as that, being
sure that, was his pants or some of his clothes, I couldn't be sure.
Mr. BALL - Here is Commission No. 156 which is a pair of gray
trousers. Did you ever see him wear trousers of that type?
Mr. FRAZIER - Not that I know of.
Mr. BALL - You are not able to tell us then anything or are you able
to tell us, describe any of the clothing he had on that day, except
this gray jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - That is the only thing you can remember?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - I have here a paper sack which is Commission's Exhibit 364.
That gray jacket you mentioned, did it have any design in it?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir.
Mr. BALL - Was it light or dark gray?
Mr. FRAZIER - It was light gray.
Mr. BALL - You mentioned it was woolen.
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Long sleeves?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Buttoned sleeves at the wrist, or do you remember?
Mr. FRAZIER - To be frank with you, I didn't notice that much about
the jacket, but I had seen him wear that gray woolen jacket before.
Mr. BALL - You say it had a zipper on it?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
END QUOTE
>
>Thanks,
No prob. ;-)
Glenn Sarlitto
near the stateline would called it soda-pop
Glenn
"John Hill" <jo...@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:3ff8...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
quid
what that is worth :)
quid
So Baker changed his testimony from the date of the killing and the final
statement for WC - but Mr. Truly's first statement was about the lunch
room....?
Barb Junkkarinen
Maybe somebody can point to where Truly's original statement can be
found online .....
greg
> Quid,
>
> > What was Truly's FIRST statement on the location?
>
> Can't remember the exact. Will get back to you with it, unless somebody
> else is able to before I do.
>
> But Truly did state something to the effect that Oswald was an employee
> and Baker took it as that and immediately proceeded up the stairs to the
> rooftop as quickly as possible. Baker didn't give it a second thought. No
> need to at that point in questioning Oswald. I for one would have done the
> same thing. You have to realize that when he heard the shots he saw
> pigeons flying away from the rooftop
How many others noticed those pigeons, Glenn, any idea?
greg
greg
He wrote the original affidavit with Oswald sitting in front of him, yet still
gave a description which did not match very closely.
Marvin Johnson was the man who took Baker's original affidavit. He confirms in
his memo regarding his duties that day that Baker had said "4th floor": "When
Patrolman ML Baker identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the man that he stopped in
the Texas School Book Depository Building, Patrolman Baker was in the Homicide
Bureau giving an affidavit and Oswald was brought into the room to talk to
some Secret Service men. When Baker saw Oswald he stated, 'that is the man I
stopped on the 4th floor of the School Book Depository.'"
Note how Johnson states Baker IDd Oswald verbally... but also note that that
ID is remarkably missing from the affidavit.
Oswald himself said under interrogation that he was spoken to by officerS
(plural) when the encounter happened. Oswald interrogation commencing 9:30am
Sunday: "After all this commotion started, I just went downstairs and started
to see what it was all about. A police officer and my superintendent of the
place stepped up and told officers that I am one of the employees in the
building. . . ."
So Oswald himself said it happened, but the difference being when Truly gave
LHO the thumbs up, it was not for Baker's benefit (though Baker was with him),
it was to the officerS who were by then taking names of employees.
So where did Oswald descend from, and where to? From the 2nd floor lunch room
to the 1st floor... where Truly had told reporters the meeting with Oswald had
occured.
And as for Truly's original affidavit saying 2nd floor lunch room... you need
to know the date of that... it was taken on the Saturday (Baker's on the
Friday)... seems by then, it was known a few changes were needed.
Recommend looking also at few archived posts from Donald Willis on this.
My own conclusion is that Baker and Truly did encounter someone on the 4th
floor. That someone was not Oswald. The encounter with Oswald happened after
they (Baker and Truly had descended) as per Oswald and Truly above -on the 1st
floor.
greg
"John Hill" <jo...@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:3ff8...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
John Hill
You're the best.
--
John Hill (joisa)
Barb Junkkarinen <bar...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:ffahvv43umbu3on1u...@4ax.com...
John Hill
news:3ffa...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
> John,
>
> He wrote the original affidavit with Oswald sitting in front of him, yet
still
> gave a description which did not match very closely.
Say WHAT?????
> Marvin Johnson was the man who took Baker's original affidavit. He
confirms in
> his memo regarding his duties that day that Baker had said "4th floor":
"When
> Patrolman ML Baker identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the man that he stopped
in
> the Texas School Book Depository Building, Patrolman Baker was in the
Homicide
> Bureau giving an affidavit and Oswald was brought into the room to talk to
> some Secret Service men. When Baker saw Oswald he stated, 'that is the man
I
> stopped on the 4th floor of the School Book Depository.'"
Hmmmm.
> Note how Johnson states Baker IDd Oswald verbally... but also note that
that
> ID is remarkably missing from the affidavit.
Yep.
> Oswald himself said under interrogation that he was spoken to by officerS
> (plural) when the encounter happened. Oswald interrogation commencing
9:30am
> Sunday: "After all this commotion started, I just went downstairs and
started
> to see what it was all about. A police officer and my superintendent of
the
> place stepped up and told officers that I am one of the employees in the
> building. . . ."
So, the picture painted is Oswald with two or more officers when Baker and
Truly arrive... where ever it was???
> So Oswald himself said it happened,
But he didn't say on which floor or anything about the lunchroom???
> but the difference being when Truly gave
> LHO the thumbs up, it was not for Baker's benefit (though Baker was with
him),
> it was to the officerS who were by then taking names of employees.
That **seems** to fit what he's saying.
> So where did Oswald descend from, and where to? From the 2nd floor lunch
room
> to the 1st floor... where Truly had told reporters the meeting with Oswald
had
> occured.
That's always been of considerable interest to me - Truly saying the
encounter took place on the first floor.
> And as for Truly's original affidavit saying 2nd floor lunch room... you
need
> to know the date of that... it was taken on the Saturday (Baker's on the
> Friday)... seems by then, it was known a few changes were needed.
It's not like that sort of thing has NEVER happened before or since. The
timing is interesting, though not conclusive of anything.
> Recommend looking also at few archived posts from Donald Willis on this.
>
> My own conclusion is that Baker and Truly did encounter someone on the 4th
> floor. That someone was not Oswald. The encounter with Oswald happened
after
> they (Baker and Truly had descended)
Or BEFORE they Ascended???
> as per Oswald and Truly above -on the 1st
> floor.
Very interesting stuff. Thanks, Greg.
--
John Hill (joisa)
John Hill
Well then, the man Baker encountered on the 3rd or 4th floor was NOT
Oswald. Wrong jacket color. Wrong floor.
????????????????????? I'm confused.
> >Thanks,
>
> No prob. ;-)
Hey, I don't know what I'd do without you.
--
John Hill (joisa)
John Hill
news:3FF8A9D0...@hotmail.com...
1) We NEVER say "you all." That's the expression used by Yankee actors in
Yankee movies and tv shows about the south. Texans always say "y'all."
"You all" sounds so pretentious. :-)
2) Now days we call them "Coke." But in the 50's and 60's they were
"Coca-Cola."
The conversation sometimes went like this:
"Do you want a coke?"
"Yeah."
"What kind, Dr. Pepper, 7-Up, RC?"
"Coca-Cola."
Seriously.
--
John Hill (joisa)
John Hill
> called it 'pop' in Chicago; called it 'soda' in Milwaukee
>
> near the stateline would called it soda-pop
A VERY reasonable compromise. :-)
--
John Hill (joisa)
John Hill
news:3ff9...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
> One of the workers at TSBD called it "soda pop" in his testimony.... for
> what that is worth :)
Damn Yankee. :-)
Yes, I occasionally heard just about every term used for cokes in Texas
(damn Yankee influence through TV corrupting our sacred Texas ways of
speaking of carbonated beverages <BG>), but "coke" was easily the dominate
term.
--
John Hill (joisa)
dc
good ole boy ROY went out of his way to tell capt fritz oswald was
missing...
wonder why he didn't tell about the other person he knew was missing, and
that he hadn't seen just minutes before.....
hmm....
took him a couple of months to come forward with his tidbit about what else
he knew. No problem, case closed.
John Hill
> Hi Glenn,
>
> I posted the whole thing for him. You remember pretty well except that
> the difference between the 11-22 statement and by the time of the last
> statement in September '64, Oswald had lost a tan coat and fallen one
> to two stories into the lunchroom.<g>
<VVVBG>
--
John Hill (joisa)
John Hill
DPD officer Baker was the first person known to have encountered Oswald
after the assassination. In his first affidavit, on 11/22/63, he said he
encountered the man on the "3rd or 4th floor" and that the man was wearing
a "light brown jacket." Oswald wore a light gray jacket that day. Later,
at the police station, Baker encountered Oswald again and said he was the
man he saw on the "4th floor." Truly (?) first reported the encounter with
Oswald took place on the 1st floor (was there something about a storeroom
mention also?). In none of these was there any mention of a connection
between Oswald, the 2nd floor and/or the lunchroom.
Can someone please flesh this out (and correct any mistakes) for me?
greg
> greg <magicbul...@octa4.net.au> wrote in message
> news:3ffa...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
> > John,
> >
> > He wrote the original affidavit with Oswald sitting in front of him, yet
> still
> > gave a description which did not match very closely.
>
> Say WHAT?????
John, he even admitted Oswald was there to the WC.
Yes... if Oswald was being quoted correctly.
> > So Oswald himself said it happened,
>
> But he didn't say on which floor or anything about the lunchroom???
Fritz's notes for the morning of 11/23 state: "says 11-21-63 [sic] two
negr came in one Jr - short negro - ask? for lunch says cheese sandwich +
apple". Fritz's notes for 22/11 however, contain this cryptic,
unpunctuated passage: "Claims 2nd floor Coke when off[icer] came in to1st
floor had lunch out with Bill Shelley in front".
You could take the 22/11 notation probably two or more different ways -
one being that when Baker came in, LHO was on the first floor drinking a
coke he'd obtained on the second floor, had lunch, then went outside with
Bill Shelley.
I do believe something like that is the most likely scenario - ie had
lunch, saw Norman and Jarman in the Domino Room, went upstairs for a coke,
and came back down when he heard all hell break loose.
Having lunch in the Domino Room and then going up for a coke was hardly
out of the norm for the workers:
Mr. BALL. What did you do after you went down and washed up; what did you
do?
Mr. LOVELADY. Well, I went over and got my lunch and went upstairs and got
a coke and come on back down.
Mr. BALL Upstairs on what floor?
Mr. LOVELADY. That's on the second floor...
Mr. JARMAN. Went and got my sandwich and went up in the lounge and got me a
soda pop.
Mr. BALL. Where is the lounge?
Mr. JARMAN. On the second floor.
> > but the difference being when Truly gave
> > LHO the thumbs up, it was not for Baker's benefit (though Baker was with
> him),
> > it was to the officerS who were by then taking names of employees.
>
> That **seems** to fit what he's saying.
>
> > So where did Oswald descend from, and where to? From the 2nd floor lunch
> room
> > to the 1st floor... where Truly had told reporters the meeting with Oswald
> had
> > occured.
>
> That's always been of considerable interest to me - Truly saying the
> encounter took place on the first floor.
It almost certainly did, imho.
> > And as for Truly's original affidavit saying 2nd floor lunch room... you
> need
> > to know the date of that... it was taken on the Saturday (Baker's on the
> > Friday)... seems by then, it was known a few changes were needed.
>
> It's not like that sort of thing has NEVER happened before or since. The
> timing is interesting, though not conclusive of anything.
No. But it's incredible the number of 1st day statements that morphed, or
totally changed by the time of the WC.
> > Recommend looking also at few archived posts from Donald Willis on this.
> >
> > My own conclusion is that Baker and Truly did encounter someone on the 4th
> > floor. That someone was not Oswald. The encounter with Oswald happened
> after
> > they (Baker and Truly had descended)
>
> Or BEFORE they Ascended???
Possible. I think that is what Don believes. However, I favour it being
after they descended. I do not think other cops were in there so quickly
taking names etc.
> > as per Oswald and Truly above -on the 1st
> > floor.
>
> Very interesting stuff. Thanks, Greg.
You quite often post in areas I've poked around in. Your input is greatly
appreciated.
greg
greg
> I'm trying to do this from memory, so please bear with me.
>
> DPD officer Baker was the first person known to have encountered Oswald
> after the assassination. In his first affidavit, on 11/22/63, he said he
> encountered the man on the "3rd or 4th floor" and that the man was wearing
> a "light brown jacket." Oswald wore a light gray jacket that day.
A flannel or woolen type with a zipper according to Frazier, and not the grey
jacket they showed him.
Later,
> at the police station, Baker encountered Oswald again and said he was the
> man he saw on the "4th floor."
According to the Marvin Johnson, the officer taking Baker's affidavit, that is
what he (Baker) said, yes. But that vital piece of info didn't go into the
affidavit.
Truly (?) first reported the encounter with
> Oswald took place on the 1st floor (was there something about a storeroom
> mention also?).
This encounter was reported in the DNM by Kent Biffle on 11/23/64 (based on
previous day interviews). The source for the story was not named at the time,
but the JFK section of the DMN online has Biffle saying the source was Truly.
In none of these was there any mention of a connection
> between Oswald, the 2nd floor and/or the lunchroom.
Nary a crumb about any of that.
> Can someone please flesh this out (and correct any mistakes) for me?
I think you have it pretty well nailed, John.
greg
greg
>
> "John Hill" <jo...@ev1.net> wrote in message
> news:3fff...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
> > I'm trying to do this from memory, so please bear with me.
> >
> > DPD officer Baker was the first person known to have encountered Oswald
> > after the assassination. In his first affidavit, on 11/22/63, he said he
> > encountered the man on the "3rd or 4th floor" and that the man was wearing
> > a "light brown jacket." Oswald wore a light gray jacket that day.
>
> A flannel or woolen type with a zipper according to Frazier, and not the
grey
> jacket they showed him.
>
> Later,
> > at the police station, Baker encountered Oswald again and said he was the
> > man he saw on the "4th floor."
>
> According to the Marvin Johnson, the officer taking Baker's affidavit, that
is
> what he (Baker) said, yes. But that vital piece of info didn't go into the
> affidavit.
>
> Truly (?) first reported the encounter with
> > Oswald took place on the 1st floor (was there something about a storeroom
> > mention also?).
>
> This encounter was reported in the DNM by Kent Biffle on 11/23/64
oops! 11/23/63
gp
quid
the original paper trail said. I wonder how and why the story changed?
John Hill
>
> DPD officer Baker was the first person known to have encountered Oswald
> after the assassination. In his first affidavit, on 11/22/63, he said he
> encountered the man on the "3rd or 4th floor" and that the man was wearing
> a "light brown jacket." Oswald wore a light gray jacket that day.
Oswald got the light gray jacket when he went back to his rooming house
after the assassination.
Oswald's blue jacket was found in the TSBD after the assassination.
Neither jacket is a match for the light brown jacket Baker saw.
--
John Hill (joisa)
Peter Fokes
Too bad the witnesses were not given a full colour chart and then asked to
point to the colour of the jacket.
Of course, we all realize witness testimony is very unreliable unless
corroborated independently by other sources.
Peter Fokes
Donald Willis
John, Peter -- Two witnesses, independently, stated that LHO typically
worked without sleeves, without jacket, in only a T shirt--Mrs Reid &
James Jarman. In fact, Mrs R said she saw LHO that hour on the 2nd floor
in a T shirt, no jacket. Jarman stated, further, that LHO kept his
overshirt or jacket downstairs on the first floor, where he left it when
arriving at the TSBD. If, then, Baker saw LHO in a jacket, it had to have
been on the 1st floor, as LHO was leaving the building... dw (Further
implication of course is that Baker & Reid saw LHO at two different times
that noon hour....)