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Posner discredits Odio Sisters' story
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Humphrey Maltravers
Mar 10, 2012, 4:46:10 PM3/10/12
to
In the PBS Frontline documentary "Who Was Lee Harvey Oswald?" Gerald
Posner discredits the Odio sisters' story. He says they were mistaken
in their chronology as to when they actually met Oswald--if it was
Oswald. Yet, they seem so sure. I guess I'm a sentimental sap for a
"crying woman," but when Syliva Odio breaks down and cries about
having met the would-be-assassin of a president.
Are the Odio sisters still living?
Posner discredits the Odio sisters' story. He says they were mistaken
in their chronology as to when they actually met Oswald--if it was
Oswald. Yet, they seem so sure. I guess I'm a sentimental sap for a
"crying woman," but when Syliva Odio breaks down and cries about
having met the would-be-assassin of a president.
Are the Odio sisters still living?
John McAdams
Mar 10, 2012, 9:21:02 PM3/10/12
to
On 10 Mar 2012 16:46:10 -0500, Humphrey Maltravers
Yes, so far as I know.
Women have long manipulated men by crying. But in fact, I don't think
they were lying in any way.
I think this is just another Oswald sighting.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/odio.htm
Lots of perfectly sincere and honest witnesses believed they had seen
Oswald. The vast majority had to be mistaken.
.John
--------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
Women have long manipulated men by crying. But in fact, I don't think
they were lying in any way.
I think this is just another Oswald sighting.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/odio.htm
Lots of perfectly sincere and honest witnesses believed they had seen
Oswald. The vast majority had to be mistaken.
.John
--------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
claviger
Mar 12, 2012, 12:28:11 PM3/12/12
to
.John,
Who wrote this article?
Who wrote this article?
John McAdams
Mar 12, 2012, 12:30:16 PM3/12/12
to
On 12 Mar 2012 12:28:11 -0400, claviger <histori...@gmail.com>
wrote:
I did.
Articles on my site without a byline are like articles in TIME or the
NEW YORK TIMES without a byline. They are the responsibility of the
editors. In this case, I'm the editor and publisher.
.John
--
The Kennedy Assassination Home Page
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
wrote:
Articles on my site without a byline are like articles in TIME or the
NEW YORK TIMES without a byline. They are the responsibility of the
editors. In this case, I'm the editor and publisher.
.John
--
The Kennedy Assassination Home Page
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
claviger
Mar 12, 2012, 3:35:45 PM3/12/12
to
On Mar 12, 11:30 am, john.mcad...@marquette.edu (John McAdams) wrote:
> On 12 Mar 2012 12:28:11 -0400, claviger <historiae.fi...@gmail.com>
Didn't someone claim Loran Hall was the crazy American? Could it be
Odio confused "Leon" for Loran?
Also, William Seymour looks a bit like LHO.
William Seymour : Biography
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKseymourW.htm - 73k - similar
pagesLoran Hall, Lawrence Howard, and William Seymour, the three anti-
Castro activists who, according to Hall in an FBI interview, were the
ones who paid the visit to ...
Another exMarine could be Steve Wilson.
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKwilsonS.htm
> On 12 Mar 2012 12:28:11 -0400, claviger <historiae.fi...@gmail.com>
Odio confused "Leon" for Loran?
Also, William Seymour looks a bit like LHO.
William Seymour : Biography
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKseymourW.htm - 73k - similar
pagesLoran Hall, Lawrence Howard, and William Seymour, the three anti-
Castro activists who, according to Hall in an FBI interview, were the
ones who paid the visit to ...
Another exMarine could be Steve Wilson.
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKwilsonS.htm
Jean Davison
Mar 13, 2012, 12:59:19 PM3/13/12
to jjdavi...@yahoo.com
On Mar 12, 11:30 am, john.mcad...@marquette.edu (John McAdams) wrote:
> On 12 Mar 2012 12:28:11 -0400, claviger <historiae.fi...@gmail.com>
that the argument that Oswald was in New Orleans until September 25th
hinges entirely on this statement about what time of day his
unemployment check was mailed from Austin:
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/html/WH_Vol24_0367a.htm
If the check actually went out on the noon train to N.O.,
Oswald would have received it on the 24th (which would mean that he
could've been at Odio's, after all).
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh26/html/WH_Vol26_0388a.htm
Is there anything other than Burcham's statement that
places Oswald in N.O. on the 25th? IMO, the rest of the evidence
strongly suggests that he left N.O. on the 24th. (Unless I've
forgotten something.)
Jean
John McAdams
Mar 17, 2012, 6:16:06 PM3/17/12
to
On 13 Mar 2012 12:59:19 -0400, Jean Davison <jean.d...@gmail.com>
wrote:
So you are saying that if the check made the earlier dispatch, it
could have gotten to Oswald on the 24th. I think that's true.
I'm not aware of anything other than Burcham's statement supporting
that the dispatch was on the later train. But Burcham seems pretty
sure, as though he has precise records. Which it's reasonable to
believe he does.
I understand that Oswald's whereabouts on the evening of the 24th is
unknown.
Eric Rogers saw him leave his apartment on the "night" of the 24th
(although it was "kind of light").
I think the Twiford evidence is iron-clad.
Thus to get him at Odio's, we need a "Twiford plus Odio" scenario.
What would you propose?
.John
--------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
wrote:
could have gotten to Oswald on the 24th. I think that's true.
I'm not aware of anything other than Burcham's statement supporting
that the dispatch was on the later train. But Burcham seems pretty
sure, as though he has precise records. Which it's reasonable to
believe he does.
I understand that Oswald's whereabouts on the evening of the 24th is
unknown.
Eric Rogers saw him leave his apartment on the "night" of the 24th
(although it was "kind of light").
I think the Twiford evidence is iron-clad.
Thus to get him at Odio's, we need a "Twiford plus Odio" scenario.
What would you propose?
.John
--------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
John McAdams
Mar 17, 2012, 6:18:30 PM3/17/12
to
On 12 Mar 2012 15:35:45 -0400, claviger <histori...@gmail.com>
wrote:
I've seen claims in secondary sources that Seymour was accounted for,
and could not have been there.
I'll admit I haven't run them down, since I think this is a "sighting"
regardless of who the visitors were.
.John
--------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
wrote:
and could not have been there.
I'll admit I haven't run them down, since I think this is a "sighting"
regardless of who the visitors were.
.John
--------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
Jean Davison
Mar 18, 2012, 6:04:41 PM3/18/12
to jjdavi...@yahoo.com
On Mar 17, 5:16 pm, John McAdams <john.mcad...@marquette.edu> wrote:
> On 13 Mar 2012 12:59:19 -0400, Jean Davison <jean.davis...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Mar 12, 11:30 am, john.mcad...@marquette.edu (John McAdams) wrote:
> >> On 12 Mar 2012 12:28:11 -0400, claviger <historiae.fi...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
>
> >> >.John,
>
> >> >> I think this is just another Oswald sighting.
>
> >> >>http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/odio.htm
>
> >> >Who wrote this article?
>
> >> I did.
>
> >> Articles on my site without a byline are like articles in TIME or the
> >> NEW YORK TIMES without a byline. They are the responsibility of the
> >> editors. In this case, I'm the editor and publisher.
>
> >> .John
>
> >> --
> >> The Kennedy Assassination Home Pagehttp://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
>
> > I've been looking at this again, John, and it occurs to me
> >that the argument that Oswald was in New Orleans until September 25th
> >hinges entirely on this statement about what time of day his
> >unemployment check was mailed from Austin:
>
> >http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/html/WH_Vol...
produced them. Also, he was asked about this six months after it
happened.
>
> I understand that Oswald's whereabouts on the evening of the 24th is
> unknown.
>
> Eric Rogers saw him leave his apartment on the "night" of the 24th
> (although it was "kind of light").
True, but he also said that when Oswald left he had "goggles" on
(suggesting he might've been wearing sunglasses), so maybe he was wrong
about the time.
Marina said that Oswald always got his Texas unemployment checks
on Tuesdays. According to the WR, he'd cashed his check the previous week
on Tuesday the 17th (no footnote, unfortunately). Marina also said that
he'd told her he planned to leave town the very next day after she left
with Ruth on the 23rd.
After he left his apartment, Oswald wasn't seen again until
around 6AM on the 26th, on a bus near the Mexican border. That's about a
day and a half that's unaccounted for. The FBI couldn't find anyone who'd
seen him on a bus from New Orleans to Houston, even though it found
witnesses who'd seen him on every other leg of his trip to Mexico City and
back to Dallas.
>
> I think the Twiford evidence is iron-clad.
>
> Thus to get him at Odio's, we need a "Twiford plus Odio" scenario.
>
> What would you propose?
I'm thinking that Oswald may've phoned the Twifords on the 24th.
The Continental bus Oswald was supposedly on didn't arrive in Houston
until 10:50 PM on the 25th, and Mrs. Twiford seemed sure that the call had
been earlier than that, between 7 and 9 or 10. Besides, she said that
Oswald told her he "had hoped to discuss ideas" with her husband (a fellow
leftist) "for a few hours" before he left for Mexico. Why try to start a
lengthy conversation with a stranger at that time of night? It seems more
likely to me that he called earlier the night before. (The Twifords
couldn't recall the exact date.)
WC staff lawyer Liebeler pointed out that there was a bus from
Dallas to Alice, Texas, that connected with the bus that left Houston in
the wee hours of the 26th, which might explain why no one recalled seeing
LHO on the Houston bus until a few hours later.
I may be wrong, but I think it's certainly possible that
Oswald *could* have been at Odio's on the 25th. All these pieces seem to
fit together fairly well.
Jean
>
> .John
> --------------http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
> On 13 Mar 2012 12:59:19 -0400, Jean Davison <jean.davis...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Mar 12, 11:30 am, john.mcad...@marquette.edu (John McAdams) wrote:
> >> On 12 Mar 2012 12:28:11 -0400, claviger <historiae.fi...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
>
> >> >.John,
>
> >> >> I think this is just another Oswald sighting.
>
> >> >>http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/odio.htm
>
> >> >Who wrote this article?
>
> >> I did.
>
> >> Articles on my site without a byline are like articles in TIME or the
> >> NEW YORK TIMES without a byline. They are the responsibility of the
> >> editors. In this case, I'm the editor and publisher.
>
> >> .John
>
> >> --
> >> The Kennedy Assassination Home Pagehttp://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
>
> > I've been looking at this again, John, and it occurs to me
> >that the argument that Oswald was in New Orleans until September 25th
> >hinges entirely on this statement about what time of day his
> >unemployment check was mailed from Austin:
>
>
> > If the check actually went out on the noon train to N.O.,
> >Oswald would have received it on the 24th (which would mean that he
> >could've been at Odio's, after all).
>
> >http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh26/html/WH_Vol...
> > If the check actually went out on the noon train to N.O.,
> >Oswald would have received it on the 24th (which would mean that he
> >could've been at Odio's, after all).
>
>
> > Is there anything other than Burcham's statement that
> >places Oswald in N.O. on the 25th? IMO, the rest of the evidence
> >strongly suggests that he left N.O. on the 24th. (Unless I've
> >forgotten something.)
>
> So you are saying that if the check made the earlier dispatch, it
> could have gotten to Oswald on the 24th. I think that's true.
>
> I'm not aware of anything other than Burcham's statement supporting
> that the dispatch was on the later train. But Burcham seems pretty
> sure, as though he has precise records. Which it's reasonable to
> believe he does.
Seems to me that if Burcham had any records, he should've
> > Is there anything other than Burcham's statement that
> >places Oswald in N.O. on the 25th? IMO, the rest of the evidence
> >strongly suggests that he left N.O. on the 24th. (Unless I've
> >forgotten something.)
>
> So you are saying that if the check made the earlier dispatch, it
> could have gotten to Oswald on the 24th. I think that's true.
>
> I'm not aware of anything other than Burcham's statement supporting
> that the dispatch was on the later train. But Burcham seems pretty
> sure, as though he has precise records. Which it's reasonable to
> believe he does.
produced them. Also, he was asked about this six months after it
happened.
>
> I understand that Oswald's whereabouts on the evening of the 24th is
> unknown.
>
> Eric Rogers saw him leave his apartment on the "night" of the 24th
> (although it was "kind of light").
(suggesting he might've been wearing sunglasses), so maybe he was wrong
about the time.
Marina said that Oswald always got his Texas unemployment checks
on Tuesdays. According to the WR, he'd cashed his check the previous week
on Tuesday the 17th (no footnote, unfortunately). Marina also said that
he'd told her he planned to leave town the very next day after she left
with Ruth on the 23rd.
After he left his apartment, Oswald wasn't seen again until
around 6AM on the 26th, on a bus near the Mexican border. That's about a
day and a half that's unaccounted for. The FBI couldn't find anyone who'd
seen him on a bus from New Orleans to Houston, even though it found
witnesses who'd seen him on every other leg of his trip to Mexico City and
back to Dallas.
>
> I think the Twiford evidence is iron-clad.
>
> Thus to get him at Odio's, we need a "Twiford plus Odio" scenario.
>
> What would you propose?
The Continental bus Oswald was supposedly on didn't arrive in Houston
until 10:50 PM on the 25th, and Mrs. Twiford seemed sure that the call had
been earlier than that, between 7 and 9 or 10. Besides, she said that
Oswald told her he "had hoped to discuss ideas" with her husband (a fellow
leftist) "for a few hours" before he left for Mexico. Why try to start a
lengthy conversation with a stranger at that time of night? It seems more
likely to me that he called earlier the night before. (The Twifords
couldn't recall the exact date.)
WC staff lawyer Liebeler pointed out that there was a bus from
Dallas to Alice, Texas, that connected with the bus that left Houston in
the wee hours of the 26th, which might explain why no one recalled seeing
LHO on the Houston bus until a few hours later.
I may be wrong, but I think it's certainly possible that
Oswald *could* have been at Odio's on the 25th. All these pieces seem to
fit together fairly well.
Jean
>
> .John
> --------------http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
John McAdams
Mar 18, 2012, 6:42:57 PM3/18/12
to
On 18 Mar 2012 18:04:41 -0400, Jean Davison <jean.d...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>On Mar 17, 5:16=A0pm, John McAdams <john.mcad...@marquette.edu> wrote:
>> On 13 Mar 2012 12:59:19 -0400, Jean Davison <jean.davis...@gmail.com>
>
>>
>> sure, as though he has precise records. =A0Which it's reasonable to
always made the late afternoon pickup, he would know that.
But I'm not convinced that the FBI would have asked for the records,
as opposed to writing down as authoritative what he told them. The
language implies a high degree of certainty, while FBI reports often
say a witness "thought" it happened this way, or "believed" it
happened that way.
>>
>> I understand that Oswald's whereabouts on the evening of the 24th is
>> unknown.
>>
>> Eric Rogers saw him leave his apartment on the "night" of the 24th
>> (although it was "kind of light").
>
> True, but he also said that when Oswald left he had "goggles" on
>(suggesting he might've been wearing sunglasses), so maybe he was wrong
>about the time.
>
OK, but the theory I see you proposing below suggests that it doesn't
matter.
> Marina said that Oswald always got his Texas unemployment checks
>on Tuesdays. According to the WR, he'd cashed his check the previous week
>on Tuesday the 17th (no footnote, unfortunately). Marina also said that
>he'd told her he planned to leave town the very next day after she left
>with Ruth on the 23rd.
>
Good point about Ruth Paine.
> After he left his apartment, Oswald wasn't seen again until
>around 6AM on the 26th, on a bus near the Mexican border. That's about a
>day and a half that's unaccounted for. The FBI couldn't find anyone who'd
>seen him on a bus from New Orleans to Houston, even though it found
>witnesses who'd seen him on every other leg of his trip to Mexico City and
>back to Dallas.
>
>>
>> I think the Twiford evidence is iron-clad.
>>
>> Thus to get him at Odio's, we need a "Twiford plus Odio" scenario.
>>
>> What would you propose?
>
> I'm thinking that Oswald may've phoned the Twifords on the 24th.
OK, so your scenario is "call to the Twifords on the 24th, visit with
Odio on the 25th." Do I understand that correctly?
>The Continental bus Oswald was supposedly on didn't arrive in Houston
>until 10:50 PM on the 25th, and Mrs. Twiford seemed sure that the call had
>been earlier than that, between 7 and 9 or 10. Besides, she said that
>Oswald told her he "had hoped to discuss ideas" with her husband (a fellow
>leftist) "for a few hours" before he left for Mexico. Why try to start a
>lengthy conversation with a stranger at that time of night? It seems more
>likely to me that he called earlier the night before. (The Twifords
>couldn't recall the exact date.)
>
But was Oswald in New Orleans wanting to converse for "a few hours"
over the phone? Did the Oswald's even have a phone at their Magazine
Street apartment? He ran out on the rent, so he might have been
planning to run out on the phone bill. But that would be relevant
only if he had a phone.
Making extended long distance calls simply wasn't Oswald's habit.
> WC staff lawyer Liebeler pointed out that there was a bus from
>Dallas to Alice, Texas, that connected with the bus that left Houston in
>the wee hours of the 26th, which might explain why no one recalled seeing
>LHO on the Houston bus until a few hours later.
>
> I may be wrong, but I think it's certainly possible that
>Oswald *could* have been at Odio's on the 25th. All these pieces seem to
>fit together fairly well.
>
OK, but if I understand your theory correctly, most of this is moot.
If he called from New Orleans to the Twifords on the 24th, he could
have picked up the check on the 25th.
Also, if he was palling around with two other guys in Dallas, they
could have driven him to Houston to get on the bus.
I read the Twiford testimony is being pretty clear that Oswald was in
Houston and wanted to come over -- even at a late hour.
I think the key thing about judging this issue is how one views Oswald
"sightings." There are a huge number of them. Some even in
Wisconsin!
Not only were there a huge number of sightings, there was a large
element of suggestion in the mind of Odio. *Before* she blacked out
-- and before she had seen any pictures of Oswald -- she had it in her
mind that the "loco" guy at the door shot Kennedy.
Which is why I think this was merely another sighting.
.John
wrote:
>On Mar 17, 5:16=A0pm, John McAdams <john.mcad...@marquette.edu> wrote:
>> On 13 Mar 2012 12:59:19 -0400, Jean Davison <jean.davis...@gmail.com>
>
>>
>> So you are saying that if the check made the earlier dispatch, it
>> could have gotten to Oswald on the 24th. =A0I think that's true.
>>
>> I'm not aware of anything other than Burcham's statement supporting
>> that the dispatch was on the later train. =A0But Burcham seems pretty
>> I'm not aware of anything other than Burcham's statement supporting
>> sure, as though he has precise records. =A0Which it's reasonable to
>> believe he does.
>
> Seems to me that if Burcham had any records, he should've
>produced them. Also, he was asked about this six months after it
>happened.
>
OK, but bureaucratic routines tend to be pretty set. If the checks
>
> Seems to me that if Burcham had any records, he should've
>produced them. Also, he was asked about this six months after it
>happened.
>
always made the late afternoon pickup, he would know that.
But I'm not convinced that the FBI would have asked for the records,
as opposed to writing down as authoritative what he told them. The
language implies a high degree of certainty, while FBI reports often
say a witness "thought" it happened this way, or "believed" it
happened that way.
>>
>> I understand that Oswald's whereabouts on the evening of the 24th is
>> unknown.
>>
>> Eric Rogers saw him leave his apartment on the "night" of the 24th
>> (although it was "kind of light").
>
> True, but he also said that when Oswald left he had "goggles" on
>(suggesting he might've been wearing sunglasses), so maybe he was wrong
>about the time.
>
matter.
> Marina said that Oswald always got his Texas unemployment checks
>on Tuesdays. According to the WR, he'd cashed his check the previous week
>on Tuesday the 17th (no footnote, unfortunately). Marina also said that
>he'd told her he planned to leave town the very next day after she left
>with Ruth on the 23rd.
>
> After he left his apartment, Oswald wasn't seen again until
>around 6AM on the 26th, on a bus near the Mexican border. That's about a
>day and a half that's unaccounted for. The FBI couldn't find anyone who'd
>seen him on a bus from New Orleans to Houston, even though it found
>witnesses who'd seen him on every other leg of his trip to Mexico City and
>back to Dallas.
>
>>
>> I think the Twiford evidence is iron-clad.
>>
>> Thus to get him at Odio's, we need a "Twiford plus Odio" scenario.
>>
>> What would you propose?
>
> I'm thinking that Oswald may've phoned the Twifords on the 24th.
Odio on the 25th." Do I understand that correctly?
>The Continental bus Oswald was supposedly on didn't arrive in Houston
>until 10:50 PM on the 25th, and Mrs. Twiford seemed sure that the call had
>been earlier than that, between 7 and 9 or 10. Besides, she said that
>Oswald told her he "had hoped to discuss ideas" with her husband (a fellow
>leftist) "for a few hours" before he left for Mexico. Why try to start a
>lengthy conversation with a stranger at that time of night? It seems more
>likely to me that he called earlier the night before. (The Twifords
>couldn't recall the exact date.)
>
over the phone? Did the Oswald's even have a phone at their Magazine
Street apartment? He ran out on the rent, so he might have been
planning to run out on the phone bill. But that would be relevant
only if he had a phone.
Making extended long distance calls simply wasn't Oswald's habit.
> WC staff lawyer Liebeler pointed out that there was a bus from
>Dallas to Alice, Texas, that connected with the bus that left Houston in
>the wee hours of the 26th, which might explain why no one recalled seeing
>LHO on the Houston bus until a few hours later.
>
> I may be wrong, but I think it's certainly possible that
>Oswald *could* have been at Odio's on the 25th. All these pieces seem to
>fit together fairly well.
>
If he called from New Orleans to the Twifords on the 24th, he could
have picked up the check on the 25th.
Also, if he was palling around with two other guys in Dallas, they
could have driven him to Houston to get on the bus.
I read the Twiford testimony is being pretty clear that Oswald was in
Houston and wanted to come over -- even at a late hour.
I think the key thing about judging this issue is how one views Oswald
"sightings." There are a huge number of them. Some even in
Wisconsin!
Not only were there a huge number of sightings, there was a large
element of suggestion in the mind of Odio. *Before* she blacked out
-- and before she had seen any pictures of Oswald -- she had it in her
mind that the "loco" guy at the door shot Kennedy.
Which is why I think this was merely another sighting.
.John
David Von Pein
Mar 19, 2012, 8:59:27 AM3/19/12
to
To Jean Davison and John McAdams:
Hi Jean and John,
I've been thoroughly enjoying your Internet exchange regarding the
Sylvia Odio situation. You both have made some excellent points, and
it's obvious from your posts concerning this matter that a pretty good
case can be made for both of your positions -- with Jean Davison
favoring the likelihood that Lee Harvey Oswald was (or at least could
have been) at Odio's door in late September of 1963; while John
McAdams thinks it's likely that the Odio incident was just another one
of the many false Oswald "sightings".
I want to thank both of you for your input. I, for one, appreciate it.
ODIO-RELATED ADDENDUM:
I've extracted an interesting section of audio from a 1966 KCBS radio
program that features former Warren Commission counsel members Wesley
Liebeler, Joseph Ball, and Albert Jenner.
The topic of the audio excerpt linked below is "Did Lee Harvey Oswald
Really Visit Sylvia Odio In September 1963?":
http://www.box.com/s/89acbf1f44f75e60fa2e
To listen to the complete 107-minute radio program with Liebeler,
Ball, and Jenner, go here:
http://DVP-Video-Audio-Archive.blogspot.com/2012/03/defending-warren-commission-report.html
===========================
OTHER ODIO LINKS:
http://JFK-Archives.blogspot.com/2010/07/oswald-odio-and-mexico-city.html
http://JFK-Archives.blogspot.com/2012/03/sylvia-odio-part-2.html
===========================
Anthony Marsh
Mar 19, 2012, 6:34:36 PM3/19/12
to
On 3/19/2012 8:59 AM, David Von Pein wrote:
>
> To Jean Davison and John McAdams:
>
> Hi Jean and John,
>
> I've been thoroughly enjoying your Internet exchange regarding the
> Sylvia Odio situation. You both have made some excellent points, and
> it's obvious from your posts concerning this matter that a pretty good
> case can be made for both of your positions -- with Jean Davison
> favoring the likelihood that Lee Harvey Oswald was (or at least could
> have been) at Odio's door in late September of 1963; while John
But wouldn't that make Jean just another conspiracy theorist?
>
> To Jean Davison and John McAdams:
>
> Hi Jean and John,
>
> I've been thoroughly enjoying your Internet exchange regarding the
> Sylvia Odio situation. You both have made some excellent points, and
> it's obvious from your posts concerning this matter that a pretty good
> case can be made for both of your positions -- with Jean Davison
> favoring the likelihood that Lee Harvey Oswald was (or at least could
> have been) at Odio's door in late September of 1963; while John
> McAdams thinks it's likely that the Odio incident was just another one
> of the many false Oswald "sightings".
>
any and all allegations.
Bud
Mar 19, 2012, 9:32:34 PM3/19/12
to
On Mar 19, 6:34 pm, Anthony Marsh <anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
> On 3/19/2012 8:59 AM, David Von Pein wrote:
>
>
>
> > To Jean Davison and John McAdams:
>
> > Hi Jean and John,
>
> > I've been thoroughly enjoying your Internet exchange regarding the
> > Sylvia Odio situation. You both have made some excellent points, and
> > it's obvious from your posts concerning this matter that a pretty good
> > case can be made for both of your positions -- with Jean Davison
> > favoring the likelihood that Lee Harvey Oswald was (or at least could
> > have been) at Odio's door in late September of 1963; while John
>
> But wouldn't that make Jean just another conspiracy theorist?
Imagine the credibility your side would gain if she was.
> On 3/19/2012 8:59 AM, David Von Pein wrote:
>
>
>
> > To Jean Davison and John McAdams:
>
> > Hi Jean and John,
>
> > I've been thoroughly enjoying your Internet exchange regarding the
> > Sylvia Odio situation. You both have made some excellent points, and
> > it's obvious from your posts concerning this matter that a pretty good
> > case can be made for both of your positions -- with Jean Davison
> > favoring the likelihood that Lee Harvey Oswald was (or at least could
> > have been) at Odio's door in late September of 1963; while John
>
> But wouldn't that make Jean just another conspiracy theorist?
> > McAdams thinks it's likely that the Odio incident was just another one
> > of the many false Oswald "sightings".
>
> Nice to see him stay true to form for a WC defender and instantly deny
> any and all allegations.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > I want to thank both of you for your input. I, for one, appreciate it.
>
> > ODIO-RELATED ADDENDUM:
>
> > I've extracted an interesting section of audio from a 1966 KCBS radio
> > program that features former Warren Commission counsel members Wesley
> > Liebeler, Joseph Ball, and Albert Jenner.
>
> > The topic of the audio excerpt linked below is "Did Lee Harvey Oswald
> > Really Visit Sylvia Odio In September 1963?":
>
> >http://www.box.com/s/89acbf1f44f75e60fa2e
>
> > To listen to the complete 107-minute radio program with Liebeler,
> > Ball, and Jenner, go here:
>
>
> > ===========================
>
> > OTHER ODIO LINKS:
>
> >http://JFK-Archives.blogspot.com/2010/07/oswald-odio-and-mexico-city....
>
> >http://JFK-Archives.blogspot.com/2012/03/sylvia-odio-part-2.html
>
> > ===========================
David Von Pein
Mar 19, 2012, 9:34:42 PM3/19/12
to
>>> "But wouldn't that make Jean just another conspiracy theorist?" <<<
Jean Davison
Mar 19, 2012, 9:35:28 PM3/19/12
to jjdavi...@yahoo.com
On Mar 19, 7:59 am, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:
> To Jean Davison and John McAdams:
>
> Hi Jean and John,
>
> I've been thoroughly enjoying your Internet exchange regarding the
> Sylvia Odio situation. You both have made some excellent points, and
> it's obvious from your posts concerning this matter that a pretty good
> case can be made for both of your positions -- with Jean Davison
> favoring the likelihood that Lee Harvey Oswald was (or at least could
> have been) at Odio's door in late September of 1963; while John
> McAdams thinks it's likely that the Odio incident was just another one
> of the many false Oswald "sightings".
>
> I want to thank both of you for your input. I, for one, appreciate it.
>
> ODIO-RELATED ADDENDUM:
>
> I've extracted an interesting section of audio from a 1966 KCBS radio
> program that features former Warren Commission counsel members Wesley
> Liebeler, Joseph Ball, and Albert Jenner.
>
> The topic of the audio excerpt linked below is "Did Lee Harvey Oswald
> Really Visit Sylvia Odio In September 1963?":
>
> http://www.box.com/s/89acbf1f44f75e60fa2e
Thanks very much, David, for that very interesting audio.
> To Jean Davison and John McAdams:
>
> Hi Jean and John,
>
> I've been thoroughly enjoying your Internet exchange regarding the
> Sylvia Odio situation. You both have made some excellent points, and
> it's obvious from your posts concerning this matter that a pretty good
> case can be made for both of your positions -- with Jean Davison
> favoring the likelihood that Lee Harvey Oswald was (or at least could
> have been) at Odio's door in late September of 1963; while John
> McAdams thinks it's likely that the Odio incident was just another one
> of the many false Oswald "sightings".
>
> I want to thank both of you for your input. I, for one, appreciate it.
>
> ODIO-RELATED ADDENDUM:
>
> I've extracted an interesting section of audio from a 1966 KCBS radio
> program that features former Warren Commission counsel members Wesley
> Liebeler, Joseph Ball, and Albert Jenner.
>
> The topic of the audio excerpt linked below is "Did Lee Harvey Oswald
> Really Visit Sylvia Odio In September 1963?":
>
> http://www.box.com/s/89acbf1f44f75e60fa2e
Liebeler presented good arguments *against* Oswald's being at Odio's, and
he may very well be right. I just wish it were possible to pin this down
with certainty.
Thanks for putting all this information online.
Jean
Jean Davison
Mar 19, 2012, 11:37:53 PM3/19/12
to jjdavi...@yahoo.com
On Mar 18, 5:42 pm, john.mcad...@marquette.edu (John McAdams) wrote:
> On 18 Mar 2012 18:04:41 -0400, Jean Davison <jean.davis...@gmail.com>
not anything about the time of day the check went out (Burcham
exhibits, v. XIX).
Yes, but a *local* call to the Twifords.
>
> >The Continental bus Oswald was supposedly on didn't arrive in Houston
> >until 10:50 PM on the 25th, and Mrs. Twiford seemed sure that the call had
> >been earlier than that, between 7 and 9 or 10. Besides, she said that
> >Oswald told her he "had hoped to discuss ideas" with her husband (a fellow
> >leftist) "for a few hours" before he left for Mexico. Why try to start a
> >lengthy conversation with a stranger at that time of night? It seems more
> >likely to me that he called earlier the night before. (The Twifords
> >couldn't recall the exact date.)
>
> But was Oswald in New Orleans wanting to converse for "a few hours"
> over the phone? Did the Oswald's even have a phone at their Magazine
> Street apartment? He ran out on the rent, so he might have been
> planning to run out on the phone bill. But that would be relevant
> only if he had a phone.
>
> Making extended long distance calls simply wasn't Oswald's habit.
Certainly, I agree He had no phone and Mrs. Twiford believed it
was a local call. I was suggesting that if he cashed his check on the
24th and left N.O. early enough, he might've been in Houston that evening.
If someone can rule that out, I'd love to hear it.
>
> > WC staff lawyer Liebeler pointed out that there was a bus from
> >Dallas to Alice, Texas, that connected with the bus that left Houston in
> >the wee hours of the 26th, which might explain why no one recalled seeing
> >LHO on the Houston bus until a few hours later.
>
> > I may be wrong, but I think it's certainly possible that
> >Oswald *could* have been at Odio's on the 25th. All these pieces seem to
> >fit together fairly well.
>
> OK, but if I understand your theory correctly, most of this is moot.
> If he called from New Orleans to the Twifords on the 24th, he could
> have picked up the check on the 25th.
>
> Also, if he was palling around with two other guys in Dallas, they
> could have driven him to Houston to get on the bus.
>
> I read the Twiford testimony is being pretty clear that Oswald was in
> Houston and wanted to come over -- even at a late hour.
In Houston, yes, but Mrs. Twiford made the reasonable point that
if he'd called around 11 PM, as the official story has it, she would've
remembered that as being unusual.
>
> I think the key thing about judging this issue is how one views Oswald
> "sightings." There are a huge number of them. Some even in
> Wisconsin!
But John, I view other Oswald "sightings" the same way you do!
Most can be easily dismissed because Oswald was elsewhere, or for other
good reasons.
>
> Not only were there a huge number of sightings, there was a large
> element of suggestion in the mind of Odio. *Before* she blacked out
> -- and before she had seen any pictures of Oswald -- she had it in her
> mind that the "loco" guy at the door shot Kennedy.
True, she had problems. On the other hand, she claimed one of
her visitors in Dallas had talked about killing JFK and two months later
he was killed in Dallas. Anybody might've been spooked by that, imo.
>
> Which is why I think this was merely another sighting.
You may well be right. However, I don't know of any other
sighting that coincided with just a long gap in Oswald's known
whereabouts.
Jean
>
> .John
>
> The Kennedy Assassination Home Pagehttp://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm- Hide quoted text -
> On 18 Mar 2012 18:04:41 -0400, Jean Davison <jean.davis...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Mar 17, 5:16=A0pm, John McAdams <john.mcad...@marquette.edu> wrote:
> >> On 13 Mar 2012 12:59:19 -0400, Jean Davison <jean.davis...@gmail.com>
>
> >> So you are saying that if the check made the earlier dispatch, it
> >> could have gotten to Oswald on the 24th. =A0I think that's true.
>
> >> I'm not aware of anything other than Burcham's statement supporting
> >> that the dispatch was on the later train. =A0But Burcham seems pretty
> >> sure, as though he has precise records. =A0Which it's reasonable to
> >> believe he does.
>
> > Seems to me that if Burcham had any records, he should've
> >produced them. Also, he was asked about this six months after it
> >happened.
>
> OK, but bureaucratic routines tend to be pretty set. If the checks
> always made the late afternoon pickup, he would know that.
>
> But I'm not convinced that the FBI would have asked for the records,
> as opposed to writing down as authoritative what he told them. The
> language implies a high degree of certainty, while FBI reports often
> say a witness "thought" it happened this way, or "believed" it
> happened that way.
It turns out that Burcham did provide Oswald's records, but
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Mar 17, 5:16=A0pm, John McAdams <john.mcad...@marquette.edu> wrote:
> >> On 13 Mar 2012 12:59:19 -0400, Jean Davison <jean.davis...@gmail.com>
>
> >> So you are saying that if the check made the earlier dispatch, it
> >> could have gotten to Oswald on the 24th. =A0I think that's true.
>
> >> I'm not aware of anything other than Burcham's statement supporting
> >> that the dispatch was on the later train. =A0But Burcham seems pretty
> >> sure, as though he has precise records. =A0Which it's reasonable to
> >> believe he does.
>
> > Seems to me that if Burcham had any records, he should've
> >produced them. Also, he was asked about this six months after it
> >happened.
>
> OK, but bureaucratic routines tend to be pretty set. If the checks
> always made the late afternoon pickup, he would know that.
>
> But I'm not convinced that the FBI would have asked for the records,
> as opposed to writing down as authoritative what he told them. The
> language implies a high degree of certainty, while FBI reports often
> say a witness "thought" it happened this way, or "believed" it
> happened that way.
not anything about the time of day the check went out (Burcham
exhibits, v. XIX).
>
> >The Continental bus Oswald was supposedly on didn't arrive in Houston
> >until 10:50 PM on the 25th, and Mrs. Twiford seemed sure that the call had
> >been earlier than that, between 7 and 9 or 10. Besides, she said that
> >Oswald told her he "had hoped to discuss ideas" with her husband (a fellow
> >leftist) "for a few hours" before he left for Mexico. Why try to start a
> >lengthy conversation with a stranger at that time of night? It seems more
> >likely to me that he called earlier the night before. (The Twifords
> >couldn't recall the exact date.)
>
> But was Oswald in New Orleans wanting to converse for "a few hours"
> over the phone? Did the Oswald's even have a phone at their Magazine
> Street apartment? He ran out on the rent, so he might have been
> planning to run out on the phone bill. But that would be relevant
> only if he had a phone.
>
> Making extended long distance calls simply wasn't Oswald's habit.
was a local call. I was suggesting that if he cashed his check on the
24th and left N.O. early enough, he might've been in Houston that evening.
If someone can rule that out, I'd love to hear it.
>
> > WC staff lawyer Liebeler pointed out that there was a bus from
> >Dallas to Alice, Texas, that connected with the bus that left Houston in
> >the wee hours of the 26th, which might explain why no one recalled seeing
> >LHO on the Houston bus until a few hours later.
>
> > I may be wrong, but I think it's certainly possible that
> >Oswald *could* have been at Odio's on the 25th. All these pieces seem to
> >fit together fairly well.
>
> OK, but if I understand your theory correctly, most of this is moot.
> If he called from New Orleans to the Twifords on the 24th, he could
> have picked up the check on the 25th.
>
> Also, if he was palling around with two other guys in Dallas, they
> could have driven him to Houston to get on the bus.
>
> I read the Twiford testimony is being pretty clear that Oswald was in
> Houston and wanted to come over -- even at a late hour.
if he'd called around 11 PM, as the official story has it, she would've
remembered that as being unusual.
>
> I think the key thing about judging this issue is how one views Oswald
> "sightings." There are a huge number of them. Some even in
> Wisconsin!
Most can be easily dismissed because Oswald was elsewhere, or for other
good reasons.
>
> Not only were there a huge number of sightings, there was a large
> element of suggestion in the mind of Odio. *Before* she blacked out
> -- and before she had seen any pictures of Oswald -- she had it in her
> mind that the "loco" guy at the door shot Kennedy.
her visitors in Dallas had talked about killing JFK and two months later
he was killed in Dallas. Anybody might've been spooked by that, imo.
>
> Which is why I think this was merely another sighting.
sighting that coincided with just a long gap in Oswald's known
whereabouts.
Jean
>
> .John
>
> The Kennedy Assassination Home Pagehttp://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm- Hide quoted text -
David Von Pein
Mar 20, 2012, 8:59:54 AM3/20/12
to
>>> "Thanks for putting all this information online." <<<
In case you're interested, I've added a few new items to my A/V
archive, as well as adding over 120 new webpages to my audio/video
site (a separate page for each video series):
http://DVP-Video-Audio-Archive.blogspot.com
John McAdams
Mar 20, 2012, 12:03:41 PM3/20/12
to
On 19 Mar 2012 23:37:53 -0400, Jean Davison <jean.d...@gmail.com>
wrote:
OK, I agree. The tone of the conversation recounted clearly implies
Oswald was in town.
>>
>> >The Continental bus Oswald was supposedly on didn't arrive in Houston
>> >until 10:50 PM on the 25th, and Mrs. Twiford seemed sure that the call had
>> >been earlier than that, between 7 and 9 or 10. Besides, she said that
>> >Oswald told her he "had hoped to discuss ideas" with her husband (a fellow
>> >leftist) "for a few hours" before he left for Mexico. Why try to start a
>> >lengthy conversation with a stranger at that time of night? It seems more
>> >likely to me that he called earlier the night before. (The Twifords
>> >couldn't recall the exact date.)
>>
>> But was Oswald in New Orleans wanting to converse for "a few hours"
>> over the phone? Did the Oswald's even have a phone at their Magazine
>> Street apartment? He ran out on the rent, so he might have been
>> planning to run out on the phone bill. But that would be relevant
>> only if he had a phone.
>>
>> Making extended long distance calls simply wasn't Oswald's habit.
>
> Certainly, I agree He had no phone and Mrs. Twiford believed it
>was a local call. I was suggesting that if he cashed his check on the
>24th and left N.O. early enough, he might've been in Houston that evening.
>If someone can rule that out, I'd love to hear it.
>
I think to get to this you have to dismiss Eric Rogers testimony. He
said it was "night" but "kind of light," which would imply dusk.
Of course, you could posit a plane ride, presumably from the two
Cubans.
>>
>> > WC staff lawyer Liebeler pointed out that there was a bus from
>> >Dallas to Alice, Texas, that connected with the bus that left Houston in
>> >the wee hours of the 26th, which might explain why no one recalled seeing
>> >LHO on the Houston bus until a few hours later.
>>
>> > I may be wrong, but I think it's certainly possible that
>> >Oswald *could* have been at Odio's on the 25th. All these pieces seem to
>> >fit together fairly well.
>>
>> OK, but if I understand your theory correctly, most of this is moot.
>> If he called from New Orleans to the Twifords on the 24th, he could
>> have picked up the check on the 25th.
>>
>> Also, if he was palling around with two other guys in Dallas, they
>> could have driven him to Houston to get on the bus.
>>
>> I read the Twiford testimony is being pretty clear that Oswald was in
>> Houston and wanted to come over -- even at a late hour.
>
> In Houston, yes, but Mrs. Twiford made the reasonable point that
>if he'd called around 11 PM, as the official story has it, she would've
>remembered that as being unusual.
>
Fair enough.
>>
>> I think the key thing about judging this issue is how one views Oswald
>> "sightings." There are a huge number of them. Some even in
>> Wisconsin!
>
> But John, I view other Oswald "sightings" the same way you do!
>Most can be easily dismissed because Oswald was elsewhere, or for other
>good reasons.
>
But the point is that if there are Oswald sightings that we can
dismiss on the basis of very strong evidence, there are probably some
that are equally erroneous where there does not *happen* to be
iron-clad evidence putting Oswald elsewhere.
In other words, if there were a lot of bogus sightings, there is no
reason to believe they would be *clustered* at times when Oswald was
in plain sight of Marina, Mrs. Paine, etc.
>>
>> Not only were there a huge number of sightings, there was a large
>> element of suggestion in the mind of Odio. *Before* she blacked out
>> -- and before she had seen any pictures of Oswald -- she had it in her
>> mind that the "loco" guy at the door shot Kennedy.
>
> True, she had problems. On the other hand, she claimed one of
>her visitors in Dallas had talked about killing JFK and two months later
>he was killed in Dallas. Anybody might've been spooked by that, imo.
>
True, but that doesn't make her testimony accurate.
I'm inclined to agree with Einspruch, that she was a bit histrionic,
while being quite honest.
You yourself, Jean, have posted citations to psychological literature
showing that people can come to "remember" things they did not see,
but just inferred.
>>
>> Which is why I think this was merely another sighting.
>
> You may well be right. However, I don't know of any other
>sighting that coincided with just a long gap in Oswald's known
>whereabouts.
>
>
Let's see, inconvenient for my interpretation are the following:
1. An implausibly late call to Twiford in Houston
2. Not believing Sylvia Odio
3. Not believing Annie Odio
Inconvenient for your theory are:
1. Dismissing Burcham.
2. Dismissing Eric Rogers (or positing a plane right to get around
that).
3. Dismissing the fact that having Annie at Sylvia's apartment
implies Thursday or Friday night.
Wouldn't it be nice if history were neater!
.John
--------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
wrote:
Oswald was in town.
>>
>> >The Continental bus Oswald was supposedly on didn't arrive in Houston
>> >until 10:50 PM on the 25th, and Mrs. Twiford seemed sure that the call had
>> >been earlier than that, between 7 and 9 or 10. Besides, she said that
>> >Oswald told her he "had hoped to discuss ideas" with her husband (a fellow
>> >leftist) "for a few hours" before he left for Mexico. Why try to start a
>> >lengthy conversation with a stranger at that time of night? It seems more
>> >likely to me that he called earlier the night before. (The Twifords
>> >couldn't recall the exact date.)
>>
>> But was Oswald in New Orleans wanting to converse for "a few hours"
>> over the phone? Did the Oswald's even have a phone at their Magazine
>> Street apartment? He ran out on the rent, so he might have been
>> planning to run out on the phone bill. But that would be relevant
>> only if he had a phone.
>>
>> Making extended long distance calls simply wasn't Oswald's habit.
>
> Certainly, I agree He had no phone and Mrs. Twiford believed it
>was a local call. I was suggesting that if he cashed his check on the
>24th and left N.O. early enough, he might've been in Houston that evening.
>If someone can rule that out, I'd love to hear it.
>
said it was "night" but "kind of light," which would imply dusk.
Of course, you could posit a plane ride, presumably from the two
Cubans.
>>
>> > WC staff lawyer Liebeler pointed out that there was a bus from
>> >Dallas to Alice, Texas, that connected with the bus that left Houston in
>> >the wee hours of the 26th, which might explain why no one recalled seeing
>> >LHO on the Houston bus until a few hours later.
>>
>> > I may be wrong, but I think it's certainly possible that
>> >Oswald *could* have been at Odio's on the 25th. All these pieces seem to
>> >fit together fairly well.
>>
>> OK, but if I understand your theory correctly, most of this is moot.
>> If he called from New Orleans to the Twifords on the 24th, he could
>> have picked up the check on the 25th.
>>
>> Also, if he was palling around with two other guys in Dallas, they
>> could have driven him to Houston to get on the bus.
>>
>> I read the Twiford testimony is being pretty clear that Oswald was in
>> Houston and wanted to come over -- even at a late hour.
>
> In Houston, yes, but Mrs. Twiford made the reasonable point that
>if he'd called around 11 PM, as the official story has it, she would've
>remembered that as being unusual.
>
>>
>> I think the key thing about judging this issue is how one views Oswald
>> "sightings." There are a huge number of them. Some even in
>> Wisconsin!
>
> But John, I view other Oswald "sightings" the same way you do!
>Most can be easily dismissed because Oswald was elsewhere, or for other
>good reasons.
>
dismiss on the basis of very strong evidence, there are probably some
that are equally erroneous where there does not *happen* to be
iron-clad evidence putting Oswald elsewhere.
In other words, if there were a lot of bogus sightings, there is no
reason to believe they would be *clustered* at times when Oswald was
in plain sight of Marina, Mrs. Paine, etc.
>>
>> Not only were there a huge number of sightings, there was a large
>> element of suggestion in the mind of Odio. *Before* she blacked out
>> -- and before she had seen any pictures of Oswald -- she had it in her
>> mind that the "loco" guy at the door shot Kennedy.
>
> True, she had problems. On the other hand, she claimed one of
>her visitors in Dallas had talked about killing JFK and two months later
>he was killed in Dallas. Anybody might've been spooked by that, imo.
>
I'm inclined to agree with Einspruch, that she was a bit histrionic,
while being quite honest.
You yourself, Jean, have posted citations to psychological literature
showing that people can come to "remember" things they did not see,
but just inferred.
>>
>> Which is why I think this was merely another sighting.
>
> You may well be right. However, I don't know of any other
>sighting that coincided with just a long gap in Oswald's known
>whereabouts.
>
>
1. An implausibly late call to Twiford in Houston
2. Not believing Sylvia Odio
3. Not believing Annie Odio
Inconvenient for your theory are:
1. Dismissing Burcham.
2. Dismissing Eric Rogers (or positing a plane right to get around
that).
3. Dismissing the fact that having Annie at Sylvia's apartment
implies Thursday or Friday night.
Wouldn't it be nice if history were neater!
.John
--------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
Jean Davison
Mar 21, 2012, 6:46:16 PM3/21/12
to jjdavi...@yahoo.com
On Mar 20, 11:03 am, John McAdams <john.mcad...@marquette.edu> wrote:
> On 19 Mar 2012 23:37:53 -0400, Jean Davison <jean.davis...@gmail.com>
No planes, and if Liebeler is right (in that tape David posted),
the bus from Dallas to Alice is out, too, so that apparently leaves only
travel by private car.
By the same token, if every other sighting were bogus, it wouldn't
mean that hers must be, too. I think almost all these claims ARE bogus,
so I wouldn't say they are clustered.
>
>
>
> >> Not only were there a huge number of sightings, there was a large
> >> element of suggestion in the mind of Odio. *Before* she blacked out
> >> -- and before she had seen any pictures of Oswald -- she had it in her
> >> mind that the "loco" guy at the door shot Kennedy.
>
> > True, she had problems. On the other hand, she claimed one of
> >her visitors in Dallas had talked about killing JFK and two months later
> >he was killed in Dallas. Anybody might've been spooked by that, imo.
>
> True, but that doesn't make her testimony accurate.
>
> I'm inclined to agree with Einspruch, that she was a bit histrionic,
> while being quite honest.
I agree. She may've seen someone she later thought was
Oswald.
>
> You yourself, Jean, have posted citations to psychological literature
> showing that people can come to "remember" things they did not see,
> but just inferred.
Absolutely. False memories are common.
>
>
>
> >> Which is why I think this was merely another sighting.
>
> > You may well be right. However, I don't know of any other
> >sighting that coincided with just a long gap in Oswald's known
> >whereabouts.
>
> Let's see, inconvenient for my interpretation are the following:
>
> 1. An implausibly late call to Twiford in Houston
>
> 2. Not believing Sylvia Odio
>
> 3. Not believing Annie Odio
I have no problem with anyone not believing the Odios. But there
are other things you have to dismiss, such as:
4. Marina's testimony that he cashed his checks, and planned to
leave town, on a Tuesday.
5. The WC's claim that he cashed another check on a Tuesday.
6. No witness to his being on the N.O.-to-Houston bus, unlike
all other legs of his trip.
> Inconvenient for your theory are:
>
> 1. Dismissing Burcham.
Agreed.
>
> 2. Dismissing Eric Rogers (or positing a plane right to get around
> that).
True, but the Garners shared a duplex with him, and said they
didn't see or hear him after Monday night (23rd).
Whether you accept Rogers or the Garners, both say he didn't
spend Tuesday night in his apartment. Any idea where he went? <g> Of
course, they could ALL be wrong about when he left.
>
> 3. Dismissing the fact that having Annie at Sylvia's apartment
> implies Thursday or Friday night.
Unless they were off by one day.
>
> Wouldn't it be nice if history were neater!
But then it would be dull! Still, I wish Odio's story
could be disproved, if it's untrue.
Jean
> On 19 Mar 2012 23:37:53 -0400, Jean Davison <jean.davis...@gmail.com>
the bus from Dallas to Alice is out, too, so that apparently leaves only
travel by private car.
mean that hers must be, too. I think almost all these claims ARE bogus,
so I wouldn't say they are clustered.
>
>
>
> >> Not only were there a huge number of sightings, there was a large
> >> element of suggestion in the mind of Odio. *Before* she blacked out
> >> -- and before she had seen any pictures of Oswald -- she had it in her
> >> mind that the "loco" guy at the door shot Kennedy.
>
> > True, she had problems. On the other hand, she claimed one of
> >her visitors in Dallas had talked about killing JFK and two months later
> >he was killed in Dallas. Anybody might've been spooked by that, imo.
>
> True, but that doesn't make her testimony accurate.
>
> I'm inclined to agree with Einspruch, that she was a bit histrionic,
> while being quite honest.
Oswald.
>
> You yourself, Jean, have posted citations to psychological literature
> showing that people can come to "remember" things they did not see,
> but just inferred.
>
>
>
> >> Which is why I think this was merely another sighting.
>
> > You may well be right. However, I don't know of any other
> >sighting that coincided with just a long gap in Oswald's known
> >whereabouts.
>
> Let's see, inconvenient for my interpretation are the following:
>
> 1. An implausibly late call to Twiford in Houston
>
> 2. Not believing Sylvia Odio
>
> 3. Not believing Annie Odio
are other things you have to dismiss, such as:
4. Marina's testimony that he cashed his checks, and planned to
leave town, on a Tuesday.
5. The WC's claim that he cashed another check on a Tuesday.
6. No witness to his being on the N.O.-to-Houston bus, unlike
all other legs of his trip.
> Inconvenient for your theory are:
>
> 1. Dismissing Burcham.
>
> 2. Dismissing Eric Rogers (or positing a plane right to get around
> that).
didn't see or hear him after Monday night (23rd).
Whether you accept Rogers or the Garners, both say he didn't
spend Tuesday night in his apartment. Any idea where he went? <g> Of
course, they could ALL be wrong about when he left.
>
> 3. Dismissing the fact that having Annie at Sylvia's apartment
> implies Thursday or Friday night.
>
> Wouldn't it be nice if history were neater!
could be disproved, if it's untrue.
Jean
John McAdams
Mar 22, 2012, 12:14:52 PM3/22/12
to
On 21 Mar 2012 18:46:16 -0400, Jean Davison <jean.d...@gmail.com>
wrote:
But if Eric Rogers is right, Oswald was seen leaving the Magazine
Street apartment at dusk. So I don't see how he could have gotten to
Houston by car in time to call Mrs. Twiford at a reasonable time.
>>
>> >> I read the Twiford testimony is being pretty clear that Oswald was in
>> >> Houston and wanted to come over -- even at a late hour.
>>
>> > In Houston, yes, but Mrs. Twiford made the reasonable point that
>> >if he'd called around 11 PM, as the official story has it, she would've
>> >remembered that as being unusual.
>>
>> Fair enough.
>>
>>
>>
>> >> I think the key thing about judging this issue is how one views Oswald
>> >> "sightings." There are a huge number of them. Some even in
>> >> Wisconsin!
>>
>> > But John, I view other Oswald "sightings" the same way you do!
>> >Most can be easily dismissed because Oswald was elsewhere, or for other
>> >good reasons.
>>
>> But the point is that if there are Oswald sightings that we can
>> dismiss on the basis of very strong evidence, there are probably some
>> that are equally erroneous where there does not *happen* to be
>> iron-clad evidence putting Oswald elsewhere.
>>
>> In other words, if there were a lot of bogus sightings, there is no
>> reason to believe they would be *clustered* at times when Oswald was
>> in plain sight of Marina, Mrs. Paine, etc.
>
> By the same token, if every other sighting were bogus, it wouldn't
>mean that hers must be, too. I think almost all these claims ARE bogus,
>so I wouldn't say they are clustered.
>
Maybe I didn't express my point very well.
A bunch of sightings can be dismissed either because of their utter
implausibility, or because good witness testimony (Mrs. Paine and
Marina) put Oswald elsewhere.
But there is no reason to doubt that there would be equally bogus
sightings at a time when it *happened* Oswald's whereabouts could not
be absolutely established.
I discuss this in my chapter "Too Much Evidence of Conspiracy."
Of course known bogus sightings don't *prove* that the Odio incident
didn't happen. But since we know that bogus sightings are a dime a
dozen, that badly degrades the value of any single sighting.
OK, although Oswald lied quite a lot.
> 5. The WC's claim that he cashed another check on a Tuesday.
>
Which lacks a citation. Also, the WC documents I have seen that
established Oswald's check cashing don't show the date. (If you know
of any that do, by all means say so.)
Thus the lack of precision that leaves open the possibility that he
cashed the check on Tuesday also throws into doubt that the WC really
knew that he cashed the previous check on Tuesday.
Could the WC simply have taken Marina's word on this?
> 6. No witness to his being on the N.O.-to-Houston bus, unlike
>all other legs of his trip.
>
>> Inconvenient for your theory are:
>>
>> 1. Dismissing Burcham.
>
> Agreed.
>
>>
>> 2. Dismissing Eric Rogers (or positing a plane right to get around
>> that).
>
> True, but the Garners shared a duplex with him, and said they
>didn't see or hear him after Monday night (23rd).
>
Sure, but that could be happenstance.
> Whether you accept Rogers or the Garners, both say he didn't
>spend Tuesday night in his apartment. Any idea where he went? <g> Of
>course, they could ALL be wrong about when he left.
>
Sure, although I'm inclined to take Roger's testimony that he saw him
a dusk pretty seriously.
>>
>> 3. Dismissing the fact that having Annie at Sylvia's apartment
>> implies Thursday or Friday night.
>
> Unless they were off by one day.
>
Sure. But would this not be like my saying I saw Joe Blow at church
one week, and it turned out that it would have to have been on Monday?
But I never go to church on Monday. So if I saw him at church, it
pretty much would have had to be on Sunday.
Of course, maybe Annie came over one Wednesday. But the testimony was
that it had to be Thursday or Friday.
>>
>> Wouldn't it be nice if history were neater!
>
> But then it would be dull! Still, I wish Odio's story
>could be disproved, if it's untrue.
>
I think we can agree that it wouldn't prove a conspiracy if it was
actually him. It would be insane for some conspiracy to have an
Oswald double (or an Oswald taking orders from conspirators) palling
around with *anti-Castro* types.
Your theory, that this was another "infiltration," is the only one
that could plausibly account for Oswald being there.
.John
--------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
wrote:
Street apartment at dusk. So I don't see how he could have gotten to
Houston by car in time to call Mrs. Twiford at a reasonable time.
>>
>> >> I read the Twiford testimony is being pretty clear that Oswald was in
>> >> Houston and wanted to come over -- even at a late hour.
>>
>> > In Houston, yes, but Mrs. Twiford made the reasonable point that
>> >if he'd called around 11 PM, as the official story has it, she would've
>> >remembered that as being unusual.
>>
>> Fair enough.
>>
>>
>>
>> >> I think the key thing about judging this issue is how one views Oswald
>> >> "sightings." There are a huge number of them. Some even in
>> >> Wisconsin!
>>
>> > But John, I view other Oswald "sightings" the same way you do!
>> >Most can be easily dismissed because Oswald was elsewhere, or for other
>> >good reasons.
>>
>> But the point is that if there are Oswald sightings that we can
>> dismiss on the basis of very strong evidence, there are probably some
>> that are equally erroneous where there does not *happen* to be
>> iron-clad evidence putting Oswald elsewhere.
>>
>> In other words, if there were a lot of bogus sightings, there is no
>> reason to believe they would be *clustered* at times when Oswald was
>> in plain sight of Marina, Mrs. Paine, etc.
>
> By the same token, if every other sighting were bogus, it wouldn't
>mean that hers must be, too. I think almost all these claims ARE bogus,
>so I wouldn't say they are clustered.
>
A bunch of sightings can be dismissed either because of their utter
implausibility, or because good witness testimony (Mrs. Paine and
Marina) put Oswald elsewhere.
But there is no reason to doubt that there would be equally bogus
sightings at a time when it *happened* Oswald's whereabouts could not
be absolutely established.
I discuss this in my chapter "Too Much Evidence of Conspiracy."
Of course known bogus sightings don't *prove* that the Odio incident
didn't happen. But since we know that bogus sightings are a dime a
dozen, that badly degrades the value of any single sighting.
> 5. The WC's claim that he cashed another check on a Tuesday.
>
established Oswald's check cashing don't show the date. (If you know
of any that do, by all means say so.)
Thus the lack of precision that leaves open the possibility that he
cashed the check on Tuesday also throws into doubt that the WC really
knew that he cashed the previous check on Tuesday.
Could the WC simply have taken Marina's word on this?
> 6. No witness to his being on the N.O.-to-Houston bus, unlike
>all other legs of his trip.
>
>> Inconvenient for your theory are:
>>
>> 1. Dismissing Burcham.
>
> Agreed.
>
>>
>> 2. Dismissing Eric Rogers (or positing a plane right to get around
>> that).
>
> True, but the Garners shared a duplex with him, and said they
>didn't see or hear him after Monday night (23rd).
>
> Whether you accept Rogers or the Garners, both say he didn't
>spend Tuesday night in his apartment. Any idea where he went? <g> Of
>course, they could ALL be wrong about when he left.
>
a dusk pretty seriously.
>>
>> 3. Dismissing the fact that having Annie at Sylvia's apartment
>> implies Thursday or Friday night.
>
> Unless they were off by one day.
>
one week, and it turned out that it would have to have been on Monday?
But I never go to church on Monday. So if I saw him at church, it
pretty much would have had to be on Sunday.
Of course, maybe Annie came over one Wednesday. But the testimony was
that it had to be Thursday or Friday.
>>
>> Wouldn't it be nice if history were neater!
>
> But then it would be dull! Still, I wish Odio's story
>could be disproved, if it's untrue.
>
actually him. It would be insane for some conspiracy to have an
Oswald double (or an Oswald taking orders from conspirators) palling
around with *anti-Castro* types.
Your theory, that this was another "infiltration," is the only one
that could plausibly account for Oswald being there.
.John
--------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
Jean Davison
Mar 23, 2012, 7:42:29 PM3/23/12
to
On Mar 22, 11:14 am, John McAdams <john.mcad...@marquette.edu> wrote:
> On 21 Mar 2012 18:46:16 -0400, Jean Davison <jean.davis...@gmail.com>
I understand that, but I don't see how "dusk" helps *anybody's*
theory. Oswald supposedly had to stay in N.O. until the next day and left
on a bus in mid-afternoon. If Oswald left his apartment on the 24th as
Rogers said, why would he abandon his apartment a day early, and where did
he spend the night? Nobody has explained that.
Certainly the Odio incident *may* be a bogus sighting, but imo
it's not utterly implausible and it's not just that his whereabout can't
be absolutely established -- I'd argue that his whereabouts during that
day or a half are not *at all* established.
>
> I discuss this in my chapter "Too Much Evidence of Conspiracy."
>
> Of course known bogus sightings don't *prove* that the Odio incident
> didn't happen. But since we know that bogus sightings are a dime a
> dozen, that badly degrades the value of any single sighting.
>
It's cause for great skepticism, I'd agree. But each
episode should be judged on its own, imo.
Sure, but I see no reason for him to lie about when he
planned to leave, and I think Marina would've known when he cashed his
checks.
>
> > 5. The WC's claim that he cashed another check on a Tuesday.
>
> Which lacks a citation. Also, the WC documents I have seen that
> established Oswald's check cashing don't show the date. (If you know
> of any that do, by all means say so.)
>
> Thus the lack of precision that leaves open the possibility that he
> cashed the check on Tuesday also throws into doubt that the WC really
> knew that he cashed the previous check on Tuesday.
>
> Could the WC simply have taken Marina's word on this?
>
No, the WR claims that on September 17 Oswald cashed a Texas
unemployment check "at the Winn-Dixie Store No. 1425 in New Orleans." (WR,
308) That's the same store on Magazine St. where he cashed his next check
"sometime between 4 p.m. on September 24 and 1 p.m. on September 25." (p.
323) This finding was based on the work schedules of the manager and
cashier who initialed the check. I've tried to find a similar FBI
document that refers to the 9/17 check cashing, but so far no luck. I
suspect that the WR's claim was based on *something*, though.
>
> > 6. No witness to his being on the N.O.-to-Houston bus, unlike
> >all other legs of his trip.
>
> >> Inconvenient for your theory are:
>
> >> 1. Dismissing Burcham.
>
> > Agreed.
>
> >> 2. Dismissing Eric Rogers (or positing a plane right to get around
> >> that).
>
> > True, but the Garners shared a duplex with him, and said they
> >didn't see or hear him after Monday night (23rd).
>
> Sure, but that could be happenstance.
Yes, it could.
>
> > Whether you accept Rogers or the Garners, both say he didn't
> >spend Tuesday night in his apartment. Any idea where he went? <g> Of
> >course, they could ALL be wrong about when he left.
>
> Sure, although I'm inclined to take Roger's testimony that he saw him
> a dusk pretty seriously.
Why? <g>
>
>
>
> >> 3. Dismissing the fact that having Annie at Sylvia's apartment
> >> implies Thursday or Friday night.
>
> > Unless they were off by one day.
>
> Sure. But would this not be like my saying I saw Joe Blow at church
> one week, and it turned out that it would have to have been on Monday?
> But I never go to church on Monday. So if I saw him at church, it
> pretty much would have had to be on Sunday.
>
> Of course, maybe Annie came over one Wednesday. But the testimony was
> that it had to be Thursday or Friday.
>
I don't see how the church analogy applies here. Sylvia
told the FBI that it might have been on Wednesday the 25th:
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=727531
>
> >> Wouldn't it be nice if history were neater!
>
> > But then it would be dull! Still, I wish Odio's story
> >could be disproved, if it's untrue.
>
> I think we can agree that it wouldn't prove a conspiracy if it was
> actually him. It would be insane for some conspiracy to have an
> Oswald double (or an Oswald taking orders from conspirators) palling
> around with *anti-Castro* types.
>
> Your theory, that this was another "infiltration," is the only one
> that could plausibly account for Oswald being there.
Thanks, John, and I definitely agree that the Odio incident
isn't evidence of a conspiracy on 11/22. For one thing, in September,
Oswald couldn't have known he'd end up overlooking a motorcade route.
Again, I'm not at all sure that Oswald was there, I just wish
it could be proved one way or the other.
Jean
> On 21 Mar 2012 18:46:16 -0400, Jean Davison <jean.davis...@gmail.com>
theory. Oswald supposedly had to stay in N.O. until the next day and left
on a bus in mid-afternoon. If Oswald left his apartment on the 24th as
Rogers said, why would he abandon his apartment a day early, and where did
he spend the night? Nobody has explained that.
it's not utterly implausible and it's not just that his whereabout can't
be absolutely established -- I'd argue that his whereabouts during that
day or a half are not *at all* established.
>
> I discuss this in my chapter "Too Much Evidence of Conspiracy."
>
> Of course known bogus sightings don't *prove* that the Odio incident
> didn't happen. But since we know that bogus sightings are a dime a
> dozen, that badly degrades the value of any single sighting.
>
episode should be judged on its own, imo.
planned to leave, and I think Marina would've known when he cashed his
checks.
>
> > 5. The WC's claim that he cashed another check on a Tuesday.
>
> Which lacks a citation. Also, the WC documents I have seen that
> established Oswald's check cashing don't show the date. (If you know
> of any that do, by all means say so.)
>
> Thus the lack of precision that leaves open the possibility that he
> cashed the check on Tuesday also throws into doubt that the WC really
> knew that he cashed the previous check on Tuesday.
>
> Could the WC simply have taken Marina's word on this?
>
unemployment check "at the Winn-Dixie Store No. 1425 in New Orleans." (WR,
308) That's the same store on Magazine St. where he cashed his next check
"sometime between 4 p.m. on September 24 and 1 p.m. on September 25." (p.
323) This finding was based on the work schedules of the manager and
cashier who initialed the check. I've tried to find a similar FBI
document that refers to the 9/17 check cashing, but so far no luck. I
suspect that the WR's claim was based on *something*, though.
>
> > 6. No witness to his being on the N.O.-to-Houston bus, unlike
> >all other legs of his trip.
>
> >> Inconvenient for your theory are:
>
> >> 1. Dismissing Burcham.
>
> > Agreed.
>
> >> 2. Dismissing Eric Rogers (or positing a plane right to get around
> >> that).
>
> > True, but the Garners shared a duplex with him, and said they
> >didn't see or hear him after Monday night (23rd).
>
> Sure, but that could be happenstance.
>
> > Whether you accept Rogers or the Garners, both say he didn't
> >spend Tuesday night in his apartment. Any idea where he went? <g> Of
> >course, they could ALL be wrong about when he left.
>
> Sure, although I'm inclined to take Roger's testimony that he saw him
> a dusk pretty seriously.
>
>
>
> >> 3. Dismissing the fact that having Annie at Sylvia's apartment
> >> implies Thursday or Friday night.
>
> > Unless they were off by one day.
>
> Sure. But would this not be like my saying I saw Joe Blow at church
> one week, and it turned out that it would have to have been on Monday?
> But I never go to church on Monday. So if I saw him at church, it
> pretty much would have had to be on Sunday.
>
> Of course, maybe Annie came over one Wednesday. But the testimony was
> that it had to be Thursday or Friday.
>
told the FBI that it might have been on Wednesday the 25th:
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=727531
>
> >> Wouldn't it be nice if history were neater!
>
> > But then it would be dull! Still, I wish Odio's story
> >could be disproved, if it's untrue.
>
> I think we can agree that it wouldn't prove a conspiracy if it was
> actually him. It would be insane for some conspiracy to have an
> Oswald double (or an Oswald taking orders from conspirators) palling
> around with *anti-Castro* types.
>
> Your theory, that this was another "infiltration," is the only one
> that could plausibly account for Oswald being there.
isn't evidence of a conspiracy on 11/22. For one thing, in September,
Oswald couldn't have known he'd end up overlooking a motorcade route.
Again, I'm not at all sure that Oswald was there, I just wish
it could be proved one way or the other.
Jean
Robert Harris
Mar 25, 2012, 6:07:31 PM3/25/12
to
In article
<c79fcd12-cc08-448d...@q12g2000yqg.googlegroups.com>,
Annie died a long time ago. To the best of my knowledge, the other two are
still alive.
To understand the "hallway visit", find a copy of *Oswald Talked*. In it,
you will find that Silvia told a much different story about seeing Oswald,
to her psychiatrist, her best friend Lucile Connell, and her lover, Father
Machann. Their statements were all corroborated by the Secret Service, and
prove that Silvia claimed to have seen Oswald more than once, including
one meeting inside her home.
There is a great deal of important information in the facts surrounding
all this. Anyone with even a passing interest in this issue should learn
about it.
Robert Harris
<c79fcd12-cc08-448d...@q12g2000yqg.googlegroups.com>,
still alive.
To understand the "hallway visit", find a copy of *Oswald Talked*. In it,
you will find that Silvia told a much different story about seeing Oswald,
to her psychiatrist, her best friend Lucile Connell, and her lover, Father
Machann. Their statements were all corroborated by the Secret Service, and
prove that Silvia claimed to have seen Oswald more than once, including
one meeting inside her home.
There is a great deal of important information in the facts surrounding
all this. Anyone with even a passing interest in this issue should learn
about it.
Robert Harris
ThePuttKing
Apr 2, 2012, 10:11:12 AM4/2/12
to
On Mar 25, 11:07 pm, Robert Harris <bobharri...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> In article
> <c79fcd12-cc08-448d-ab8e-da19c7b7d...@q12g2000yqg.googlegroups.com>,
Should listen to posner Case Closed !
> In article
> <c79fcd12-cc08-448d-ab8e-da19c7b7d...@q12g2000yqg.googlegroups.com>,
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