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Photographic proof: Rifle not found on sixth floor
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donald willis
Nov 26, 2018, 3:37:12 PM11/26/18
to
Photographic proof: Rifle not found on sixth floor
Everyone knows that the fifth and sixth floors of the TSBD looked very
much alike. From the outside, from the inside--not much difference
between fifth and sixth. But, as it turns out, there are a few
differences. As demonstrated in the new JFK documentary, "Mysteries at
the Museum -- JFK Assassination".
As host Don Wildman is about to walk from the sixth floor up to the
seventh--at about the 55-minute mark--we see what at first looks like a
familiar pillar behind him. You know the one--the one with the stenciled
"5" emblazoned on it.
Compare CE 515, a shot of the area where the rifle was found. This pillar
marks the right edge of that area. (CE 515 appears in "JFK First Day
Evidence", on page 174, as Dallas Police photo #12, "showing an overview
of the rifle location".) And an apparent William Allen photo [found by
19e] taken on 11/22/63 shows Patrolman James M. Valentine at the back of
the pillar "5" area.
As InsideSparta has written:
"In large warehouses, especially older ones with a large number
of internal pillars, it is common to number the pillars in order to locate
goods quicker. For a building like the TSBD, it would be common practice
to have the pillars numbered. That way, in the register, the location of
books would be designated by the closest pillar number. So, if the
register said the books were located at location 6-5, it would mean pillar
number 5 on the 6th floor. " (6/27/18, "Questions for Donald Willis",
alt.assassination.jfk)
Take a closer look at the sixth floor's pillar #5 in the film. Notice
that the electrical tube affixed directly to the pillar extends from the
ceiling right down through the "5". And it ends in a small switch box
below the "5". A single rectangular box.
Now, look again at CE 515 (aka DPD #12). First, the tube does NOT pass
through the "5". It goes straight down, about two or three inches to the
LEFT of the "5". And it ends, below the "5", in not just one, but TWO
electrical boxes. This pillar does not seem to be the same one we see in
the TV documentary, the one on the sixth floor. There are clear
differences in the electrical tubing and boxes.
And while the differences can't tell us on WHICH floor the DPD and Allen
photos were taken, the Allen photo provides a clue, in the presence of
Officer Valentine. In a report dated May 28, 1964, Valentine stated that
he "entered the Texas School Book Depository building, and was assigned to
the FIFTH FLOOR." (CE 2645 p6) The other floor, on which the rifle was
actually found--as seen in the 1963 photos--would then seem to have been
the fifth. At any rate, it's not the sixth floor.
Any number of interesting possible scenarios now present themselves. Was
the rifle simply left there just to frame its owner? Or was it actually
used on the fifth floor? Or did a sixth-floor shooter stow it there on
his way down? At the very least, we can reasonably conclude that not all
the evidence was found on the sixth floor. Homicide Captain Fritz's
reported handling of the spent shells now seems more problematic. Were
they, too, "imported" from the fifth floor?
When Insp. Sawyer radioed that the shells were found on the "third floor",
did he mean "third floor from the top"--i.e., fifth floor? Again, at any
rate, we can reasonably conclude that the defeaning silence on the sixth
floor, at about 1:20pm--according to Det. Marvin Johnson ("Report on the
President's Murder" p210; 11/26/63?), who was there --the silence was an
early indication that the famously noisy* discovery of the rifle (at
1:22pm, according to Deputy Eugene Boone) was not made on that floor.
"At approximately 1:20", Det. Johnson heard the sounds of the DPD-radio call
re Tippit wafting up from "the police radio below", on the outside of the
building, but he made no mention of the somewhat-more-relevant discovery
of the weapon, supposedly on that very floor. (He was on the sixth floor
until about 2:30.)
*"Boone yelled that he had found the rifle" (Deputy A.D. McCurley,
v.19p514) "I heard Boone holler out that he had found the rifle" (Deputy
Luke Mooney)
dcw
(If you don't have access to the Travel Channel documentary, I can e-mail
you a photo of the pillar in question.)
Everyone knows that the fifth and sixth floors of the TSBD looked very
much alike. From the outside, from the inside--not much difference
between fifth and sixth. But, as it turns out, there are a few
differences. As demonstrated in the new JFK documentary, "Mysteries at
the Museum -- JFK Assassination".
As host Don Wildman is about to walk from the sixth floor up to the
seventh--at about the 55-minute mark--we see what at first looks like a
familiar pillar behind him. You know the one--the one with the stenciled
"5" emblazoned on it.
Compare CE 515, a shot of the area where the rifle was found. This pillar
marks the right edge of that area. (CE 515 appears in "JFK First Day
Evidence", on page 174, as Dallas Police photo #12, "showing an overview
of the rifle location".) And an apparent William Allen photo [found by
19e] taken on 11/22/63 shows Patrolman James M. Valentine at the back of
the pillar "5" area.
As InsideSparta has written:
"In large warehouses, especially older ones with a large number
of internal pillars, it is common to number the pillars in order to locate
goods quicker. For a building like the TSBD, it would be common practice
to have the pillars numbered. That way, in the register, the location of
books would be designated by the closest pillar number. So, if the
register said the books were located at location 6-5, it would mean pillar
number 5 on the 6th floor. " (6/27/18, "Questions for Donald Willis",
alt.assassination.jfk)
Take a closer look at the sixth floor's pillar #5 in the film. Notice
that the electrical tube affixed directly to the pillar extends from the
ceiling right down through the "5". And it ends in a small switch box
below the "5". A single rectangular box.
Now, look again at CE 515 (aka DPD #12). First, the tube does NOT pass
through the "5". It goes straight down, about two or three inches to the
LEFT of the "5". And it ends, below the "5", in not just one, but TWO
electrical boxes. This pillar does not seem to be the same one we see in
the TV documentary, the one on the sixth floor. There are clear
differences in the electrical tubing and boxes.
And while the differences can't tell us on WHICH floor the DPD and Allen
photos were taken, the Allen photo provides a clue, in the presence of
Officer Valentine. In a report dated May 28, 1964, Valentine stated that
he "entered the Texas School Book Depository building, and was assigned to
the FIFTH FLOOR." (CE 2645 p6) The other floor, on which the rifle was
actually found--as seen in the 1963 photos--would then seem to have been
the fifth. At any rate, it's not the sixth floor.
Any number of interesting possible scenarios now present themselves. Was
the rifle simply left there just to frame its owner? Or was it actually
used on the fifth floor? Or did a sixth-floor shooter stow it there on
his way down? At the very least, we can reasonably conclude that not all
the evidence was found on the sixth floor. Homicide Captain Fritz's
reported handling of the spent shells now seems more problematic. Were
they, too, "imported" from the fifth floor?
When Insp. Sawyer radioed that the shells were found on the "third floor",
did he mean "third floor from the top"--i.e., fifth floor? Again, at any
rate, we can reasonably conclude that the defeaning silence on the sixth
floor, at about 1:20pm--according to Det. Marvin Johnson ("Report on the
President's Murder" p210; 11/26/63?), who was there --the silence was an
early indication that the famously noisy* discovery of the rifle (at
1:22pm, according to Deputy Eugene Boone) was not made on that floor.
"At approximately 1:20", Det. Johnson heard the sounds of the DPD-radio call
re Tippit wafting up from "the police radio below", on the outside of the
building, but he made no mention of the somewhat-more-relevant discovery
of the weapon, supposedly on that very floor. (He was on the sixth floor
until about 2:30.)
*"Boone yelled that he had found the rifle" (Deputy A.D. McCurley,
v.19p514) "I heard Boone holler out that he had found the rifle" (Deputy
Luke Mooney)
dcw
(If you don't have access to the Travel Channel documentary, I can e-mail
you a photo of the pillar in question.)
bpete1969
Dec 1, 2018, 11:01:16 AM12/1/18
to
No "mystery" at all in the museum. The lights were rewired and new conduit
run. If you'll notice, the no smoking sign in CE 515 has been removed and
the post was cleaned up. Some of the gunk below the 5 is gone and in the
video footage, a new protective corner runs down the edge of the column.
run. If you'll notice, the no smoking sign in CE 515 has been removed and
the post was cleaned up. Some of the gunk below the 5 is gone and in the
video footage, a new protective corner runs down the edge of the column.
donald willis
Dec 2, 2018, 5:54:22 PM12/2/18
to
1963-4 photos of the "5" area posts on the respective floors. I say we
have no image of the SIXTH-floor post; others might just say we have no
image of the FIFTH-floor post....
But OFficer Valentine stated that he was left to watch the FIFTH floor.
And there he is, in the same pic with the infamous post....
dcw
Bud
Dec 3, 2018, 10:54:48 AM12/3/18
to
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49662/m1/1/zoom/?resolution=0.5&lat=1842.0826684405422&lon=1149.6783424848231
You should be able to zoom out or move around the photo. You can see a
checkered box at the base.
Here is another...
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49665/m1/1/zoom/?resolution=0.5&lat=1870.5&lon=871.5
This photo shows the other side of that same column...
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49659/m1/1/zoom/?resolution=1&lat=1706&lon=786
Note the checkered box at the base. Also note the other side of the "No
Smoking" sign that sticks out more on one side than the other. Also note
what appears to be a "7" on the post. I suspect a lot of the marking on
the posts are just people cleaning off brushes on them.
Another photo with the column in it...
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49521/m1/1/zoom/?resolution=0.5&lat=1761.5&lon=572.5
Notice the dolly with the plywood to the left that the flooring crew was
putting down on the 6th floor.
Another photo showing the stairway going down to the fifth from the
sixth. This is the same "STAIR WAY" sign seen in the other photos...
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49671/m1/1/zoom/?resolution=1&lat=1788.5487469249724&lon=672.6678227411836
This photo shows where Oswald`s clipboard was found, just to the right
of the stairs...
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-fEQM9H25J_A/WRkmLnXfD8I/AAAAAAABLzM/-3F2-P2y7PcQCcCP7Q2w0nkPK6gTgbT5gCLcB/s1600/TSBD-22.png
Notice the "STAIR WAY" sign in the back, and the "ing" of the "No
Smoking" sign on the column to the left. It is the same area. It is the
same column. It is the 6th floor.
donald willis
Dec 4, 2018, 7:01:34 PM12/4/18
to
showed the plywood on the left. I too knew that the crew was laying
plywood on the 6th floor on 11/22. But I had forgotten that Williams &
co. were brought over to lay plywood on TWO floors:
Williams: "They called me up to help lay a floor on the FIFTH FLOOR. They
wanted more boards over it."
Ball: "You were laying a wood floor over the old floor?"
Williams: "Yes, sir."
Ball: "On the FIFTH FLOOR?"
Williams: "Yes, sir.... After we finished on the fifth floor, we started
to move up to the sixth floor." (v3p163)
"Started".... Only natural that some plywood would have been left behind,
to be taken upstairs only when needed.
Thank you. Patrolman Valentine's statement that he was left to watch the
FIFTH FLOOR was NOT in error....
Williams: "At the time we didn't complete the sixth floor. We only
completed just a little portion of it." (p163)
dcw
Bud
Dec 6, 2018, 8:30:03 AM12/6/18
to
elevator to the floor they were working on rather than take it up a sheet
at a time.
This is where they were making their cuts on the 6th floor, you can see
how many cut-off are there, and likely many of the sheets would have been
put down as full sheets.
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49517/m1/1/zoom/?resolution=0.5&lat=1502.7057060171437&lon=454.5295293219042
I believe another indicator that it is the 6th floor is the number of
rows of bricks in the arches above the windows. Photos of the 5th floor
show 3 rows of bricks in the arches...
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49731/m1/1/zoom/?resolution=1&lat=1900.5&lon=1191
The photo also shows the flooring done on the fifth, with many full
sheets.
Photos of the sixth floor show 4 rows of bricks in the arches above the
windows (like this photo with the "5" column)...
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49662/m1/1/zoom/?resolution=1&lat=1876&lon=1051
And down by the SN...
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49641/m1/1/zoom/?resolution=0.5&lat=1957&lon=819
The reason for the different arches inside is like due to the difference
in the facade between the windows of the fifth and sixth floors...
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339841/m1/1/zoom/?resolution=0.5&lat=3076.5&lon=761.5
But I think it best that you cling to your idea. But I wonder, is Kaiser
lying when he says he found Oswald`s clipboard on the 6th floor? Where he
indicated he found it is right near the "5" column.
donald willis
Dec 7, 2018, 9:31:29 PM12/7/18
to
their are only THREE rows of bricks above the second window from the end
on the east wall. The configuration of bricks on the side and back walls
seemed to vary from that of the bricks on the front wall, and from window
to window in the same row.
dcw
Mark
Dec 8, 2018, 11:16:45 AM12/8/18
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Bud
Dec 8, 2018, 8:33:15 PM12/8/18
to
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49500/m1/1/zoom/?resolution=0.5&lat=1999&lon=445.5
You need to show 4 brick arches on the 5th floor. People move, bricks
don`t.
donald willis
Dec 10, 2018, 11:16:19 AM12/10/18
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donald willis
Dec 10, 2018, 11:22:30 AM12/10/18
to
On Saturday, December 8, 2018 at 5:33:15 PM UTC-8, Bud wrote:
floors there are about 7 windows; on the west side, only three windows,
and fifth & sixth are identical from the outside. Perhaps they (and the
back windows) are also identical on the inside. We don't seem to have
enough to compare.
dcw
Bud
Dec 11, 2018, 11:26:42 AM12/11/18
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floor? Where he indicated he found it was near the "5" column.
donald willis
Dec 11, 2018, 7:24:13 PM12/11/18
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Hard to believe that with all those city and county cops scouring the
upper floors on 11/22 they didn't find it! Do you really believe THAT?
Bud
Dec 12, 2018, 4:58:01 PM12/12/18
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indicated is near the "5" column. Was he lying?
> Hard to believe that with all those city and county cops scouring the
> upper floors on 11/22 they didn't find it! Do you really believe THAT?
clipboard?
donald willis
Dec 13, 2018, 11:06:23 AM12/13/18
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soda bottles.
Mark
Dec 14, 2018, 10:54:16 AM12/14/18
to
Dr. Pepper on the 6th and when no one else joined him (except Oswald, who
must have struggled to control his breathing behind the boxes while hoping
Williams would get the hell out), went down to the 5th and found fellow
workers to watch the motorcade with. Golly, there's even pictures of them
there.
It ain't that hard.
Unless of course you think a national conspiracy/cover-up would count on
three TSBD workers to go along with the murder of the POTUS like robots.
I've always wondered...when do you think the conspirators got in touch
with Jarman, Norman and Williams? What day or week prior to 11/22? Just
give us your best guess.
But wait, you don't think all three were involved in the murder, that
two of them were just unknowing participants in the cover-up. Do I have
that right?
Your plot thickens.
You are a loyal hobbyist.
Mark
Bud
Dec 14, 2018, 10:55:19 AM12/14/18
to
you merely flit away to some other non issue. There were at least two
other empty bottles on the 6th floor, a Dr Pepper here...
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49517/m1/1/zoom/?resolution=0.5&lat=1444.7057060171437&lon=629.0295293219042
An empty bottle on the window sill next to the window the cop is looking
out at the 12 second mark...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHyuApXqja0
Someone made the assumption that the bottle found near where Oswald shot
from was connected to the shooter, no mention was made of these other
bottles likely because they weren`t seen as significant. Also likely is
that during the search for the murder weapon, an ordinary warehouse item
like a clipboard, far from the where the shots were fired from, would not
be seen as significant. If you can`t figure out simple things like this,
why do you credit yourself with the ability to figure out complex ones?
And devoid of the ability to make distinctions or reason, perhaps you
aren`t cut out for this second guessing of actual criminal investigators
at all.
donald willis
Dec 14, 2018, 9:45:28 PM12/14/18
to
clipboard, a soda bottle, or chicken. It was just there. And as Bud
noted, the clipboard was "found" near where the rifle was found.
>
> Unless of course you think a national conspiracy/cover-up would count on
> three TSBD workers to go along with the murder of the POTUS like robots.
>
> I've always wondered...when do you think the conspirators got in touch
> with Jarman, Norman and Williams? What day or week prior to 11/22? Just
> give us your best guess.
>
> But wait, you don't think all three were involved in the murder, that
> two of them were just unknowing participants in the cover-up. Do I have
> that right?
>
> Your plot thickens.
>
> You are a loyal hobbyist.
>
And Williams, Oswald, and Arce were probably enlisted about the same time,
whatever month that was--they all came to the depository about the same
time....
dcw
donald willis
Dec 15, 2018, 10:33:18 AM12/15/18
to
On Friday, December 14, 2018 at 7:55:19 AM UTC-8, Bud wrote:
> On Thursday, December 13, 2018 at 11:06:23 AM UTC-5, donald willis wrote:
> > On Wednesday, December 12, 2018 at 1:58:01 PM UTC-8, Bud wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, December 11, 2018 at 7:24:13 PM UTC-5, donald willi
> > > > > >
> On Thursday, December 13, 2018 at 11:06:23 AM UTC-5, donald willis wrote:
> > On Wednesday, December 12, 2018 at 1:58:01 PM UTC-8, Bud wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, December 11, 2018 at 7:24:13 PM UTC-5, donald willi
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The side windows are not uniform. On the east side of the fifth & sixth
> > > > > > floors there are about 7 windows; on the west side, only three windows,
> > > > > > and fifth & sixth are identical from the outside. Perhaps they (and the
> > > > > > back windows) are also identical on the inside. We don't seem to have
> > > > > > enough to compare.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > dcw
> > > > >
> > > > > Was Kaiser lying when he said he found Oswald clipboard on the 6th
> > > > > floor? Where he indicated he found it was near the "5" column.
> > > >
> > > > Oh, the FIFTH floor!
> > >
> > > Kaiser said he found the clipboard on the sixth floor. Where he
> > > indicated is near the "5" column. Was he lying?
> > >
> > > > Hard to believe that with all those city and county cops scouring the
> > > > upper floors on 11/22 they didn't find it! Do you really believe THAT?
> > >
> > > Do you really believe they were scouring the 5th floor looking for a
> > > clipboard?
> >
> > No, you're right--they were scouring both floors for pieces of chicken and
> > soda bottles.
>
> And this is why you are a waste of time, Don
I thought that this newsgroup didn't allow ad hominem attacks.
> > > > > > floors there are about 7 windows; on the west side, only three windows,
> > > > > > and fifth & sixth are identical from the outside. Perhaps they (and the
> > > > > > back windows) are also identical on the inside. We don't seem to have
> > > > > > enough to compare.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > dcw
> > > > >
> > > > > Was Kaiser lying when he said he found Oswald clipboard on the 6th
> > > > > floor? Where he indicated he found it was near the "5" column.
> > > >
> > > > Oh, the FIFTH floor!
> > >
> > > Kaiser said he found the clipboard on the sixth floor. Where he
> > > indicated is near the "5" column. Was he lying?
> > >
> > > > Hard to believe that with all those city and county cops scouring the
> > > > upper floors on 11/22 they didn't find it! Do you really believe THAT?
> > >
> > > Do you really believe they were scouring the 5th floor looking for a
> > > clipboard?
> >
> > No, you're right--they were scouring both floors for pieces of chicken and
> > soda bottles.
>
> And this is why you are a waste of time, Don
, confronted on one thing
> you merely flit away to some other non issue. There were at least two
> other empty bottles on the 6th floor
, a Dr Pepper here...
>
> https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth49517/m1/1/zoom/?resolution=0.5&lat=1444.7057060171437&lon=629.0295293219042
>
> An empty bottle on the window sill next to the window the cop is looking
> out at the 12 second mark...
pic in Pictures of the Pain, page 449: The SW corner window is not quite
all the way open on the fifth floor--as reflected in the film you happily
discovered. The SW corner window on the SIXTH floor--as seen in the
Powell--IS all the way open.
A fabulous find, Bud! There seems to have been more activity than is
generally credited on the FIFTH floor. That particular bottle was
probably forgotten when the (empty) "nest" was discovered on the floor
above. After or as Fritz picked up the hulls on the FIFTH floor....
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHyuApXqja0
>
> Someone made the assumption that the bottle found near where Oswald shot
> from was connected to the shooter, no mention was made of these other
> bottles likely because they weren`t seen as significant. Also likely is
> that during the search for the murder weapon, an ordinary warehouse item
> like a clipboard, far from the where the shots were fired from
was "found" NOT FAR from where the rifle was found. All those people
gaggled around the rifle area, and they didn't see the clipboard, or saw
it and were not curious about it? Unlikely....
, would not
> be seen as significant. If you can`t figure out simple things like this
floor!
,
> why do you credit yourself with the ability to figure out complex ones?
>
> And devoid of the ability to make distinctions or reason, perhaps you
> aren`t cut out for this second guessing of actual criminal investigators
> at all.
false assumption about the "sixth" floor!
dcw
InsideSparta
Dec 15, 2018, 9:28:20 PM12/15/18
to
at the TSBD as part of a conspiracy to assassinate the president is
totally idiotic because the decision to hold the presidential luncheon at
the Trade Mart, and to route the motorcade in front of the TSBD, was made
AFTER those three individuals became employed at the book depository.
Never mind that there isn't one single piece of evidence that Oswald knew
either Arce or Williams before he began working at the TSBD. Nor is there
any evidence whatsoever that Arce or Williams had any contacts with
organizations that would have plotted to have the president killed. You're
in the same camp as Cinque and Saintly Oswald. You make wild accusations
against innocent people without having any evidence to back it up. What
the hell is wrong with you people.
Bud
Dec 15, 2018, 9:46:38 PM12/15/18
to
actions of the officer prior to being caught on film are not available.
Ignore how long it was between Powell`s photo and Alyeas filming. Ignore
that just because a person is photographed on one floor doesn`t rule out
him being on another. Forget that some officers were mistaken about the
floors.
> A fabulous find, Bud! There seems to have been more activity than is
> generally credited on the FIFTH floor. That particular bottle was
> probably forgotten when the (empty) "nest" was discovered on the floor
> above. After or as Fritz picked up the hulls on the FIFTH floor....
on nothing,
dw.
Anthony Marsh
Dec 16, 2018, 9:11:35 AM12/16/18
to
BTW calling the sniper's nest empty sounds a little rude.
Maybe there was just nothing important in it when Alyea filmed it.
David Von Pein
Dec 16, 2018, 2:02:59 PM12/16/18
to
Tom Alyea's film (culled from multiple sources, including WFAA-TV's
original 11/22/63 coverage)....
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8UwZ588YcqIdkFIY1dPclZjUjA/view
Alyea talks about the assassination in 1993:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGON3R3WFJoWDktX2s/view
original 11/22/63 coverage)....
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8UwZ588YcqIdkFIY1dPclZjUjA/view
Alyea talks about the assassination in 1993:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGON3R3WFJoWDktX2s/view
donald willis
Dec 16, 2018, 2:03:12 PM12/16/18
to
donald willis
Dec 16, 2018, 5:11:02 PM12/16/18
to
pulled the sixth-floor corner window down just a few inches in order to...
WHAT? Picture Bud very desperate! Someone throw him a lifeline. He just
can't admit he jumped to the wrong conclusion....
The window in the film reflects EXACTLY the corner fifth-floor as seen in
the Powell. Pretty simple, but Bud has to complicate matters to get what
he wants. All you have to do is go down one floor, not imagine the routes
of officers or reasons for moving a window down a few inches....
Ignore
> that just because a person is photographed on one floor doesn`t rule out
> him being on another.
Forget that some officers were mistaken about the
> floors.
dcw
donald willis
Dec 16, 2018, 5:14:59 PM12/16/18
to
sixth floor, and filming them, but does not mention... shells.
dcw
Bud
Dec 16, 2018, 11:46:31 PM12/16/18
to
On Sunday, December 16, 2018 at 2:02:59 PM UTC-5, David Von Pein wrote:
> Tom Alyea's film (culled from multiple sources, including WFAA-TV's
> original 11/22/63 coverage)....
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8UwZ588YcqIdkFIY1dPclZjUjA/view
Seems this is the clearest, although it doesn`t have everything...
> Tom Alyea's film (culled from multiple sources, including WFAA-TV's
> original 11/22/63 coverage)....
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8UwZ588YcqIdkFIY1dPclZjUjA/view
https://youtu.be/dHyuApXqja0
> Alyea talks about the assassination in 1993:
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGON3R3WFJoWDktX2s/view
Mark
Dec 16, 2018, 11:48:26 PM12/16/18
to
Tom Alyea: It all came down to the 6th floor.
Mark
Jason Burke
Dec 16, 2018, 11:52:07 PM12/16/18
to
years on, even though there's been nothing even resembling evidence of
such.
Bud
Dec 16, 2018, 11:53:25 PM12/16/18
to
billion times more likely than your fantastic ideas?
> The window in the film reflects EXACTLY the corner fifth-floor as seen in
> the Powell.
in the Alyea film didn`t open it up as it is seen?
> Pretty simple, but Bud has to complicate matters to get what
> he wants.
evidence around, some cops in on it, some not and the media filming during
all these shenanigans. Fritz going to Parkland but then return to plant
bullets, A bunch of nonsense that you can`t begin to support with reports
of chicken bones and window openings.
> All you have to do is go down one floor, not imagine the routes
> of officers or reasons for moving a window down a few inches....
> Ignore
> > that just because a person is photographed on one floor doesn`t rule out
> > him being on another.
>
> Now he's not even making sense.
time and been photographed there?
> Forget that some officers were mistaken about the
> > floors.
>
> What on earth does that have to do with the matter at hand?
on? I know, too fantastic to consider, there must have been a massively
complex conspiracy at work, cops rushed into the TSBD and started messing
with everything, and left the media around to document it.
>
> dcw
Bud
Dec 16, 2018, 11:53:50 PM12/16/18
to
were. He was pushing his luck being there at all, he had to try to stay on
the fringes, he couldn`t bust into the nest and film anything he wanted.
Anthony Marsh
Dec 17, 2018, 12:51:42 PM12/17/18
to
They could have picked the airport or any other location. Did the grassy
knoll shooterr have to work in the TSBD to get access to the fence? Stop
being childish.
Mark
Dec 17, 2018, 4:59:41 PM12/17/18
to
News Group typed your name below an accusation that Danny Arce and Bonnie
Ray Williams conspired to murder President Kennedy.
Without one piece of evidence. Only your imagination.
Some of us take that sort of thing seriously.
What a evidence-less, silly and ultimately cruel hobby you have chosen
for your life.
If they read your posts, I'm sure Arce and Williams or their living
families would have something to say to you.
Mark
David Von Pein
Dec 17, 2018, 5:02:06 PM12/17/18
to
filming on the 6th floor. Two of the three shells were wedged up against
the baseboard, and the third one would have been out of Alyea's view from
the angle he filmed the SN.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-JbkbBN6KJKE/TZEOJYRVCNI/AAAAAAAATcc/D0i89sUs91Y/s1600/CE510--Three-Bullet-Shells-On-The-Floor.jpg
donald willis
Dec 17, 2018, 5:03:24 PM12/17/18
to
On Sunday, December 16, 2018 at 8:46:31 PM UTC-8, Bud wrote:
> On Sunday, December 16, 2018 at 2:02:59 PM UTC-5, David Von Pein wrote:
> > Tom Alyea's film (culled from multiple sources, including WFAA-TV's
> > original 11/22/63 coverage)....
> >
> > https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8UwZ588YcqIdkFIY1dPclZjUjA/view
>
> Seems this is the clearest, although it doesn`t have everything...
>
> https://youtu.be/dHyuApXqja0
Thank you. Give yourself enough rope & you'll hang yourself, Bud, is the
> On Sunday, December 16, 2018 at 2:02:59 PM UTC-5, David Von Pein wrote:
> > Tom Alyea's film (culled from multiple sources, including WFAA-TV's
> > original 11/22/63 coverage)....
> >
> > https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8UwZ588YcqIdkFIY1dPclZjUjA/view
>
> Seems this is the clearest, although it doesn`t have everything...
>
> https://youtu.be/dHyuApXqja0
apt old expression for you here. Already established: The corner
fifth-floor window in the Powell matches the corner window in the film.
Now, notice that the SECOND window from the west end on the fifth floor in
the Powell ALSO matches the second window from the west end in the
film--both are CLOSED.
So now you have to perform some more speculative contortions in order to
put our cop at the window on the sixth floor, where the 2nd window from
the west end is OPEN.
And actually you don't have to resort to the Powell. I can see this
configuration of the fifth and sixth-floor windows at the beginning of
your little filmstrip! And the film was apparently taken closer to the
time of the cop's actions than was the Powell.
The cop is at a fifth-floor window, thank you.
>
> > Alyea talks about the assassination in 1993:
> >
> > https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGON3R3WFJoWDktX2s/view
>
> Lots of talk about chicken bones for Don there.
the 6th floor. Just boxes.
dcw
donald willis
Dec 17, 2018, 5:03:50 PM12/17/18
to
and you'll see such evidence....
donald willis
Dec 17, 2018, 5:04:19 PM12/17/18
to
this fine distinction, Bud?
donald willis
Dec 17, 2018, 5:06:05 PM12/17/18
to
On Sunday, December 16, 2018 at 8:53:25 PM UTC-8, Bud wrote:
> On Sunday, December 16, 2018 at 5:11:02 PM UTC-5, donald willis wrote:
> > On Saturday, December 15, 2018 at 6:46: cut
> On Sunday, December 16, 2018 at 5:11:02 PM UTC-5, donald willis wrote:
> > > Yes, ignore that windows can be moved up and down. Ignore that the
> > > actions of the officer prior to being caught on film are not available.
> > > Ignore how long it was between Powell`s photo and Alyeas filming.
> >
> > Thus does the brilliant mind of Bud suggest that SOMEONE for SOME REASON
> > pulled the sixth-floor corner window down just a few inches in order to...
> > WHAT? Picture Bud very desperate! Someone throw him a lifeline. He just
> > can't admit he jumped to the wrong conclusion....
>
> That wasn`t my idea at all, but isn`t that possibility still about a
> billion times more likely than your fantastic ideas?
Gee, good use of "loaded" words: "billion" "fantastic". And WHAT wasn't
> > > actions of the officer prior to being caught on film are not available.
> > > Ignore how long it was between Powell`s photo and Alyeas filming.
> >
> > Thus does the brilliant mind of Bud suggest that SOMEONE for SOME REASON
> > pulled the sixth-floor corner window down just a few inches in order to...
> > WHAT? Picture Bud very desperate! Someone throw him a lifeline. He just
> > can't admit he jumped to the wrong conclusion....
>
> That wasn`t my idea at all, but isn`t that possibility still about a
> billion times more likely than your fantastic ideas?
your idea? I thought your idea was that the cop was on the sixth
floor....
>
>
> > The window in the film reflects EXACTLY the corner fifth-floor as seen in
> > the Powell.
>
> How do you know that the cop seen looking out that 6th floor west window
> in the Alyea film didn`t open it up as it is seen?
also have to have pulled the window next to it all the way up, too!
'cause that window is CLOSED in the filmstrip.... And in that same
filmstrip we see him walking past that window, and it is still CLOSED as
he passes it.
The comparable SIXTH-floor window is wide open--at the beginning of the
filmstrip....
>
> > Pretty simple, but Bud has to complicate matters to get what
> > he wants.
>
> *I* complicate things? Put all your ideas out there, cops moving
> evidence around, some cops in on it, some not and the media filming during
> all these shenanigans. Fritz going to Parkland but then return to plant
> bullets, A bunch of nonsense that you can`t begin to support with reports
> of chicken bones and window openings.
>
"ideas". It's just a fact which you don't want to accept. It just takes
a grain or two of sand off the sixth-floor side of the scale and puts it
on the fifth floor. Apparently not conclusive of anything further....
> > All you have to do is go down one floor, not imagine the routes
> > of officers or reasons for moving a window down a few inches....
>
> Easy peasy, and long as you totally disregard reality.
>
> > Ignore
> > > that just because a person is photographed on one floor doesn`t rule out
> > > him being on another.
> >
> > Now he's not even making sense.
>
> Officer Valentine couldn`t have been on the 6th floor at some point in
> time and been photographed there?
>
seeing the fifth floor, not the sixth. No hard and fast conclusions based
simply on that....
> > Forget that some officers were mistaken about the
> > > floors.
> >
> > What on earth does that have to do with the matter at hand?
> Your cop Valentine couldn`t have been mistaken about what floor he was
> on?
some windows....
dcw
Anthony Marsh
Dec 17, 2018, 8:33:44 PM12/17/18
to
Oswald was shooting from behind?
Does this help?
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/Langley29.jpg
Do you still claim that Watergate never happened or can you grow up
enough to admit that was a conspiracy?
Bud
Dec 17, 2018, 8:41:03 PM12/17/18
to
On Monday, December 17, 2018 at 5:06:05 PM UTC-5, donald willis wrote:
> On Sunday, December 16, 2018 at 8:53:25 PM UTC-8, Bud wrote:
> > On Sunday, December 16, 2018 at 5:11:02 PM UTC-5, donald willis wrote:
> > > On Saturday, December 15, 2018 at 6:46: cut
> > > > Yes, ignore that windows can be moved up and down. Ignore that the
> > > > actions of the officer prior to being caught on film are not available.
> > > > Ignore how long it was between Powell`s photo and Alyeas filming.
> > >
> > > Thus does the brilliant mind of Bud suggest that SOMEONE for SOME REASON
> > > pulled the sixth-floor corner window down just a few inches in order to...
> > > WHAT? Picture Bud very desperate! Someone throw him a lifeline. He just
> > > can't admit he jumped to the wrong conclusion....
> >
> > That wasn`t my idea at all, but isn`t that possibility still about a
> > billion times more likely than your fantastic ideas?
>
> Gee, good use of "loaded" words: "billion" "fantastic".
Spell them all out so people can see how fantastic they are, so people
> On Sunday, December 16, 2018 at 8:53:25 PM UTC-8, Bud wrote:
> > On Sunday, December 16, 2018 at 5:11:02 PM UTC-5, donald willis wrote:
> > > On Saturday, December 15, 2018 at 6:46: cut
> > > > Yes, ignore that windows can be moved up and down. Ignore that the
> > > > actions of the officer prior to being caught on film are not available.
> > > > Ignore how long it was between Powell`s photo and Alyeas filming.
> > >
> > > Thus does the brilliant mind of Bud suggest that SOMEONE for SOME REASON
> > > pulled the sixth-floor corner window down just a few inches in order to...
> > > WHAT? Picture Bud very desperate! Someone throw him a lifeline. He just
> > > can't admit he jumped to the wrong conclusion....
> >
> > That wasn`t my idea at all, but isn`t that possibility still about a
> > billion times more likely than your fantastic ideas?
>
> Gee, good use of "loaded" words: "billion" "fantastic".
can compare the possibilities of the mundane things I suggest against the
fantastic events you read into them.
> And WHAT wasn't
> your idea? I thought your idea was that the cop was on the sixth
> floor....
these movements giving insight into the assassination.
> >
> >
> > > The window in the film reflects EXACTLY the corner fifth-floor as seen in
> > > the Powell.
> >
> > How do you know that the cop seen looking out that 6th floor west window
> > in the Alyea film didn`t open it up as it is seen?
>
> As I just noted to you in response to another post, this same cop would
> also have to have pulled the window next to it all the way up, too!
> 'cause that window is CLOSED in the filmstrip.... And in that same
> filmstrip we see him walking past that window, and it is still CLOSED as
> he passes it.
https://youtu.be/3tM7lY_z9t0
Either poltergeists are at work or people in the building are moving
windows. You might see both as equal possibilities.
> The comparable SIXTH-floor window is wide open--at the beginning of the
> filmstrip....
> >
> > > Pretty simple, but Bud has to complicate matters to get what
> > > he wants.
> >
> > *I* complicate things? Put all your ideas out there, cops moving
> > evidence around, some cops in on it, some not and the media filming during
> > all these shenanigans. Fritz going to Parkland but then return to plant
> > bullets, A bunch of nonsense that you can`t begin to support with reports
> > of chicken bones and window openings.
> >
>
> I don't think that this window-opening business here is germane to my
> "ideas". It's just a fact which you don't want to accept. It just takes
> a grain or two of sand off the sixth-floor side of the scale and puts it
> on the fifth floor. Apparently not conclusive of anything further....
> > > All you have to do is go down one floor, not imagine the routes
> > > of officers or reasons for moving a window down a few inches....
> >
> > Easy peasy, and long as you totally disregard reality.
> >
>
> Your reality seems to have nothing to do with facts here!
Your figuring has a popular President killed and many people rushing
into the TSBD to immediately start moving evidence around with the media
filming. None of it makes any real-world sense, it is all a bunch of
imagination and nonsense.
> > > Ignore
> > > > that just because a person is photographed on one floor doesn`t rule out
> > > > him being on another.
> > >
> > > Now he's not even making sense.
> >
> > Officer Valentine couldn`t have been on the 6th floor at some point in
> > time and been photographed there?
> >
>
> He could have. I just said that his presence there suggests that we're
> seeing the fifth floor, not the sixth. No hard and fast conclusions based
> simply on that....
>
> > > Forget that some officers were mistaken about the
> > > > floors.
> > >
> > > What on earth does that have to do with the matter at hand?
>
>
> > Your cop Valentine couldn`t have been mistaken about what floor he was
> > on?
>
> Valentine was not part of this discussion.
name.
> We were only talking about
> some windows....
> dcw
Mark
Dec 18, 2018, 9:20:20 AM12/18/18
to
people--which includes Bonnie Ray Williams and Daniel Arce--who conspired
to murder the President of the United States.
Mark
donald willis
Dec 18, 2018, 9:22:31 AM12/18/18
to
donald willis
Dec 18, 2018, 9:23:00 AM12/18/18
to
Alyea is renown for saying not only that he saw the shells, but that Fritz
picked one up to show him. (Although, in later years, he has said that
Fritz actually pocketed the shells.) He said that he had film of this,
but it either disappeared or did not happen.
dcw
Anthony Marsh
Dec 18, 2018, 3:48:35 PM12/18/18
to
Alyea was filming. They were in Fritz's pocket. He didn't plant them
until after Alyea moved on.
donald willis
Dec 18, 2018, 4:02:54 PM12/18/18
to
On Monday, December 17, 2018 at 5:41:03 PM UTC-8, Bud wrote:
> On Monday, December 17, 2018 at 5:06:05 PM UTC-5, donald willis wrote:
> > On Sunday, December 16, 2018 at 8:53:25 PM UTC-8, Bud wrote:
> > > On Sunday, December 16, 2018 at 5:11:02 PM UTC-5, donald willis wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, December 15, 2018 at 6:46: cut
> > > > > Yes, ignore that windows can be moved up and down. Ignore that the
> > > > > actions of the officer prior to being caught on film are not available.
> > > > > Ignore how long it was between Powell`s photo and Alyeas filming.
> > > >
> > > > Thus does the brilliant mind of Bud suggest that SOMEONE for SOME REASON
> > > > pulled the sixth-floor corner window down just a few inches in order to...
> > > > WHAT? Picture Bud very desperate! Someone throw him a lifeline. He just
> > > > can't admit he jumped to the wrong conclusion....
> > >
> > > That wasn`t my idea at all, but isn`t that possibility still about a
> > > billion times more likely than your fantastic ideas?
> >
> > Gee, good use of "loaded" words: "billion" "fantastic".
>
> Spell them all out so people can see how fantastic they are, so people
> can compare the possibilities of the mundane things I suggest against the
> fantastic events you read into them.
>
> > And WHAT wasn't
> > your idea? I thought your idea was that the cop was on the sixth
> > floor....
>
> Don`t know, don`t care. People were moving around. Don`t see any of
> these movements giving insight into the assassination.
>
Well, if YOU don't care what you say, then certainly no one else does!
> On Monday, December 17, 2018 at 5:06:05 PM UTC-5, donald willis wrote:
> > On Sunday, December 16, 2018 at 8:53:25 PM UTC-8, Bud wrote:
> > > On Sunday, December 16, 2018 at 5:11:02 PM UTC-5, donald willis wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, December 15, 2018 at 6:46: cut
> > > > > Yes, ignore that windows can be moved up and down. Ignore that the
> > > > > actions of the officer prior to being caught on film are not available.
> > > > > Ignore how long it was between Powell`s photo and Alyeas filming.
> > > >
> > > > Thus does the brilliant mind of Bud suggest that SOMEONE for SOME REASON
> > > > pulled the sixth-floor corner window down just a few inches in order to...
> > > > WHAT? Picture Bud very desperate! Someone throw him a lifeline. He just
> > > > can't admit he jumped to the wrong conclusion....
> > >
> > > That wasn`t my idea at all, but isn`t that possibility still about a
> > > billion times more likely than your fantastic ideas?
> >
> > Gee, good use of "loaded" words: "billion" "fantastic".
>
> Spell them all out so people can see how fantastic they are, so people
> can compare the possibilities of the mundane things I suggest against the
> fantastic events you read into them.
>
> > And WHAT wasn't
> > your idea? I thought your idea was that the cop was on the sixth
> > floor....
>
> Don`t know, don`t care. People were moving around. Don`t see any of
> these movements giving insight into the assassination.
>
> > >
> > >
> > > > The window in the film reflects EXACTLY the corner fifth-floor as seen in
> > > > the Powell.
> > >
> > > How do you know that the cop seen looking out that 6th floor west window
> > > in the Alyea film didn`t open it up as it is seen?
> >
> > As I just noted to you in response to another post, this same cop would
> > also have to have pulled the window next to it all the way up, too!
> > 'cause that window is CLOSED in the filmstrip.... And in that same
> > filmstrip we see him walking past that window, and it is still CLOSED as
> > he passes it.
>
> And both windows are open in this clip (0:15 mark)...
>
> https://youtu.be/3tM7lY_z9t0
off on this fruitless rant. This clip, however, actually seems like it
might have been taken on the sixth floor--it matches the sixth-floor
window configuration in the Powell and your original clip. The latter
matches the FIFTH-floor configuration in the Powell....
>
> Either poltergeists are at work or people in the building are moving
> windows.
is a sight to see....
You might see both as equal possibilities.
>
> > The comparable SIXTH-floor window is wide open--at the beginning of the
> > filmstrip....
>
> <snicker> Clues, Don, clues!
>
> > >
> > > > Pretty simple, but Bud has to complicate matters to get what
> > > > he wants.
> > >
> > > *I* complicate things? Put all your ideas out there, cops moving
> > > evidence around, some cops in on it, some not and the media filming during
> > > all these shenanigans. Fritz going to Parkland but then return to plant
> > > bullets, A bunch of nonsense that you can`t begin to support with reports
> > > of chicken bones and window openings.
> > >
> >
> > I don't think that this window-opening business here is germane to my
> > "ideas". It's just a fact which you don't want to accept. It just takes
> > a grain or two of sand off the sixth-floor side of the scale and puts it
> > on the fifth floor. Apparently not conclusive of anything further....
>
> Move all the sand around you like, dw, it is a silly hobby.
>
run from facts.
> > > > All you have to do is go down one floor, not imagine the routes
> > > > of officers or reasons for moving a window down a few inches....
> > >
> > > Easy peasy, and long as you totally disregard reality.
> > >
> >
> > Your reality seems to have nothing to do with facts here!
>
> Facts are facts and silly figuring is silly figuring.
>
> Your figuring has a popular President killed and many people rushing
> into the TSBD to immediately start moving evidence around with the media
> filming. None of it makes any real-world sense, it is all a bunch of
> imagination and nonsense.
the one moving things around in your mind.... And my "figuring" had
nothing to do with a President's death, which I guess you didn't mean to
imply, but....
dcw
Bud
Dec 18, 2018, 9:08:32 PM12/18/18
to
is wearing a bowler hat, that means he is an alien", I might offer that he
might just like bowler hats, or that there is no known connection between
bowler hats and aliens. When I offer something like this I`m not advancing
an idea, I`m merely pointing out all the mundane things *you* must rule
out before your fantastic ideas can get any traction.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > The window in the film reflects EXACTLY the corner fifth-floor as seen in
> > > > > the Powell.
> > > >
> > > > How do you know that the cop seen looking out that 6th floor west window
> > > > in the Alyea film didn`t open it up as it is seen?
> > >
> > > As I just noted to you in response to another post, this same cop would
> > > also have to have pulled the window next to it all the way up, too!
> > > 'cause that window is CLOSED in the filmstrip.... And in that same
> > > filmstrip we see him walking past that window, and it is still CLOSED as
> > > he passes it.
> >
> > And both windows are open in this clip (0:15 mark)...
> >
> > https://youtu.be/3tM7lY_z9t0
>
> Different cop, different time,
changed position?
> no bottle in sight, which latter set you
> off on this fruitless rant. This clip, however, actually seems like it
> might have been taken on the sixth floor--it matches the sixth-floor
> window configuration in the Powell and your original clip. The latter
> matches the FIFTH-floor configuration in the Powell....
>
> >
> > Either poltergeists are at work or people in the building are moving
> > windows.
>
> OR... the cop in your original clip was on the FIFTH floor.
who needs to establish these things. The building still stands, go there
and take pictures showing the physical configurations that show your ideas
to be correct. Stop with the "show I am wrong or I get to believe silly
things" approach.
> Bud in denial
> is a sight to see....
>
> You might see both as equal possibilities.
>
> >
> > > The comparable SIXTH-floor window is wide open--at the beginning of the
> > > filmstrip....
> >
> > <snicker> Clues, Don, clues!
>
> aka facts!
that doesn`t establish that he didn`t shoot and kill JFK.
Focusing on all the wrong "facts" is what is preventing you from
figuring out a pretty simple crime.
> > > >
> > > > > Pretty simple, but Bud has to complicate matters to get what
> > > > > he wants.
> > > >
> > > > *I* complicate things? Put all your ideas out there, cops moving
> > > > evidence around, some cops in on it, some not and the media filming during
> > > > all these shenanigans. Fritz going to Parkland but then return to plant
> > > > bullets, A bunch of nonsense that you can`t begin to support with reports
> > > > of chicken bones and window openings.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I don't think that this window-opening business here is germane to my
> > > "ideas". It's just a fact which you don't want to accept. It just takes
> > > a grain or two of sand off the sixth-floor side of the scale and puts it
> > > on the fifth floor. Apparently not conclusive of anything further....
> >
> > Move all the sand around you like, dw, it is a silly hobby.
> >
>
> Cornered, Bud resorts to generalities.
substance? My challenge, which you ignored, was for you to spell out your
ideas so they can be seen for what they really are, and be dismissed out
of hand. Tell us about "The Plan", what was it? Fritz had bullets on his
person, but went to Parkland first then returned to plant them? How were
these police enlisted, did someone approach them and say "Look, we are
going to shoot a popular President, and we would like to enlist you help.
Even though there is no discernible upside for you to do this, and you are
risking your freedom, your life and you risk your family shamed and your
children tormented, we expect you will jump at the opportunity. And have
no fear of the intense scrutiny this crime will receive."
> I guess Ben H is right--you simply
> run from facts.
And using Ben Holmes as a source of wisdom is a bad sign.
I noticed this, see what you make of it. A voiceover on these excepts of
the Alyea film (at 0:22), apparently from the time of the assassination
says...
"Gerry Hill, of the Dallas Police Department just leaned out a window,
and apparently they found some shells, they`re in that room..."
https://youtu.be/3tM7lY_z9t0
Gerry Hill, out the window of the 6th floor...
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth184839/m1/1/
And this one, where he is more clearly indicating the SN window...
http://i1.wp.com/altereddimensions.net/main/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Gerald-Hill-Leaning-Out-TSBD-Window.jpg
Gerald Hill has the shells being found before Fritz got there (12:15 on)....
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGON3R3WFJoWDktX2s/view
> > > > > All you have to do is go down one floor, not imagine the routes
> > > > > of officers or reasons for moving a window down a few inches....
> > > >
> > > > Easy peasy, and long as you totally disregard reality.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Your reality seems to have nothing to do with facts here!
> >
> > Facts are facts and silly figuring is silly figuring.
> >
> > Your figuring has a popular President killed and many people rushing
> > into the TSBD to immediately start moving evidence around with the media
> > filming. None of it makes any real-world sense, it is all a bunch of
> > imagination and nonsense.
>
> No, just clear examination of that clip you originally presented. YOU'RE
> the one moving things around in your mind....
the TSBD and immediately started moving evidence around? These are not
your silly ideas?
David Von Pein
Dec 19, 2018, 3:09:05 PM12/19/18
to
by CTers. Sorry for being so blunt, but I have a hard time accepting
anything uttered by a JFK conspiracy theorist these days, since they are
almost always 100% wrong about everything that escapes their lips.
And since there's nothing in the current version of Tom Alyea's film to
indicate that Captain Fritz picked up (or pocketed) any bullet shells, and
since we *KNOW* that the film shot by Alyea was put on the air LIVE at
WFAA-TV in Dallas within just an hour or two of the film having been
shot---well, do the math.
Do you really think somebody who was part of a "plot" to conceal evidence
got ahold of the film when it was "wet" (right out of the "soup", as they
say) and snipped out portions of the film *before* it was shown live on
the air on WFAA? I guess you, Donald C. Willis, must think something like
that DID happen on 11/22/63. Otherwise, we would see Fritz handling the
shells in the WFAA footage shown in my second video linked below,
right?
Well, I say---Hogwash!
There never was any film footage of Fritz picking up the shells. If Mr.
Alyea ever said that such footage existed, he was most certainly mistaken.
Because if it did exist in his film, it would have most certainly been
shown on live WFAA-TV within hours (maybe less) of the assassination.
Anyway, DCW, as you yourself pointed out, Tom Alyea doesn't mention
"shells" at all in his 1993 public appearance. (But, I will admit, Hugh
Aynesworth's annoying interruptions in that '93 program don't enhance
Alyea's chances of being able to provide a complete account of his
11/22/63 actions.)
Alyea in 1993:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGON3R3WFJoWDktX2s/view
Alyea in Nov. 1964:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8UwZ588YcqIdkFIY1dPclZjUjA/view
donald willis
Dec 19, 2018, 3:09:25 PM12/19/18
to
apparently part company--that Fritz picked them up on another floor....
dcw
donald willis
Dec 19, 2018, 3:11:54 PM12/19/18
to
filmstrip was on the sixth floor. I proved that you were dead wrong--he
was on the fifth floor, as shown by the state of the windows, as seen in
both the Powell and IN THAT VERY FILMSTRIP, AT THE BEGINNING! Your post
contained its own correction! I'm not sure why you can't admit such a
simple fact, except out of sheer cussedness....
If you say "This guy
> is wearing a bowler hat, that means he is an alien", I might offer that he
> might just like bowler hats, or that there is no known connection between
> bowler hats and aliens. When I offer something like this I`m not advancing
> an idea, I`m merely pointing out all the mundane things *you* must rule
> out before your fantastic ideas can get any traction.
>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > The window in the film reflects EXACTLY the corner fifth-floor as seen in
> > > > > > the Powell.
> > > > >
> > > > > How do you know that the cop seen looking out that 6th floor west window
> > > > > in the Alyea film didn`t open it up as it is seen?
> > > >
> > > > As I just noted to you in response to another post, this same cop would
> > > > also have to have pulled the window next to it all the way up, too!
> > > > 'cause that window is CLOSED in the filmstrip.... And in that same
> > > > filmstrip we see him walking past that window, and it is still CLOSED as
> > > > he passes it.
> > >
> > > And both windows are open in this clip (0:15 mark)...
> > >
> > > https://youtu.be/3tM7lY_z9t0
> >
> > Different cop, different time,
>
> And different window configuration. How do you suppose they got to this
> changed position?
in the Powell; the fifth-floor windows " " " " " " " "
" ".
>
> > no bottle in sight, which latter set you
> > off on this fruitless rant. This clip, however, actually seems like it
> > might have been taken on the sixth floor--it matches the sixth-floor
> > window configuration in the Powell and your original clip. The latter
> > matches the FIFTH-floor configuration in the Powell....
> >
> > >
> > > Either poltergeists are at work or people in the building are moving
> > > windows.
> >
> > OR... the cop in your original clip was on the FIFTH floor.
>
> OR... he was in the northeast window of the 6th.
you just speculating?
Again, you are the one
> who needs to establish these things. The building still stands, go there
> and take pictures showing the physical configurations that show your ideas
> to be correct. Stop with the "show I am wrong or I get to believe silly
> things" approach.
>
> > Bud in denial
> > is a sight to see....
> >
> > You might see both as equal possibilities.
> >
> > >
> > > > The comparable SIXTH-floor window is wide open--at the beginning of the
> > > > filmstrip....
> > >
> > > <snicker> Clues, Don, clues!
> >
> > aka facts!
>
> It is a fact that Oswald said he was a patsy. It is also a fact that
> that doesn`t establish that he didn`t shoot and kill JFK.
>
of that--that he was a patsy--then you're admitting there was a
conspiracy....
> Focusing on all the wrong "facts" is what is preventing you from
> figuring out a pretty simple crime.
>
> > > > >
> > > > > > Pretty simple, but Bud has to complicate matters to get what
> > > > > > he wants.
> > > > >
> > > > > *I* complicate things? Put all your ideas out there, cops moving
> > > > > evidence around, some cops in on it, some not and the media filming during
> > > > > all these shenanigans. Fritz going to Parkland but then return to plant
> > > > > bullets, A bunch of nonsense that you can`t begin to support with reports
> > > > > of chicken bones and window openings.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > I don't think that this window-opening business here is germane to my
> > > > "ideas". It's just a fact which you don't want to accept. It just takes
> > > > a grain or two of sand off the sixth-floor side of the scale and puts it
> > > > on the fifth floor. Apparently not conclusive of anything further....
> > >
> > > Move all the sand around you like, dw, it is a silly hobby.
> > >
> >
> > Cornered, Bud resorts to generalities.
>
> How can I be "cornered", when you haven`t produced anything of
> substance? My challenge, which you ignored, was for you to spell out your
> ideas so they can be seen for what they really are, and be dismissed out
> of hand. Tell us about "The Plan", what was it? Fritz had bullets on his
> person, but went to Parkland first then returned to plant them?
They were found about 12:55; he got there about 1:00.
How were
> these police enlisted, did someone approach them and say "Look, we are
> going to shoot a popular President
per the newspaper ads that month.
, and we would like to enlist you help.
> Even though there is no discernible upside for you to do this, and you are
> risking your freedom, your life and you risk your family shamed and your
> children tormented, we expect you will jump at the opportunity. And have
> no fear of the intense scrutiny this crime will receive."
>
THE EVIDENCE....
>
> > I guess Ben H is right--you simply
> > run from facts.
>
> What facts have I been running from?
>
> And using Ben Holmes as a source of wisdom is a bad sign.
>
> I noticed this, see what you make of it. A voiceover on these excepts of
> the Alyea film (at 0:22), apparently from the time of the assassination
> says...
>
> "Gerry Hill, of the Dallas Police Department just leaned out a window,
> and apparently they found some shells, they`re in that room..."
>
NOT in that room, and so they don't know WHAT was found.
And it's curious that there are photos of Hill at a window, but NONE of
Deputy Mooney's famous shout out a window.... Somehow the photogs missed
that, although Sgt. Harkness and Deputy Sweatt, below, heard Mooney!
> https://youtu.be/3tM7lY_z9t0
>
> Gerry Hill, out the window of the 6th floor...
>
> https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth184839/m1/1/
>
> And this one, where he is more clearly indicating the SN window...
>
> http://i1.wp.com/altereddimensions.net/main/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Gerald-Hill-Leaning-Out-TSBD-Window.jpg
>
> Gerald Hill has the shells being found before Fritz got there (12:15 on)....
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGON3R3WFJoWDktX2s/view
>
shells about 12:55, very quickly, because--as Sawyer testified--officers
had told Sawyer that they saw a rifle on the fifth floor, "second window
from the end". (Patrolman Hill, Sgt. Harkness).
> > > > > > All you have to do is go down one floor, not imagine the routes
> > > > > > of officers or reasons for moving a window down a few inches....
> > > > >
> > > > > Easy peasy, and long as you totally disregard reality.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your reality seems to have nothing to do with facts here!
> > >
> > > Facts are facts and silly figuring is silly figuring.
> > >
> > > Your figuring has a popular President killed and many people rushing
> > > into the TSBD to immediately start moving evidence around with the media
> > > filming. None of it makes any real-world sense, it is all a bunch of
> > > imagination and nonsense.
> >
> > No, just clear examination of that clip you originally presented. YOU'RE
> > the one moving things around in your mind....
>
> Are you denying that your idea is that members of the DPD rushed into
> the TSBD and immediately started moving evidence around? These are not
> your silly ideas?
>
dcw
Anthony Marsh
Dec 19, 2018, 11:23:08 PM12/19/18
to
home improvement shows where they keep moving the couch.
Bud
Dec 20, 2018, 10:21:54 AM12/20/18
to
> Again, you are the one
> > who needs to establish these things. The building still stands, go there
> > and take pictures showing the physical configurations that show your ideas
> > to be correct. Stop with the "show I am wrong or I get to believe silly
> > things" approach.
> >
> > > Bud in denial
> > > is a sight to see....
> > >
> > > You might see both as equal possibilities.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > The comparable SIXTH-floor window is wide open--at the beginning of the
> > > > > filmstrip....
> > > >
> > > > <snicker> Clues, Don, clues!
> > >
> > > aka facts!
> >
> > It is a fact that Oswald said he was a patsy. It is also a fact that
> > that doesn`t establish that he didn`t shoot and kill JFK.
> >
>
> True. I'm 50-50 on that.... Of course, if you're admitting the first half
> of that--that he was a patsy--then you're admitting there was a
> conspiracy....
and it being true.
> > Focusing on all the wrong "facts" is what is preventing you from
> > figuring out a pretty simple crime.
> >
>
> You have trouble with the "right" facts!
the 5th floor? Is it a fact that Valentine is on the fifth floor in the
photo you referenced?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Pretty simple, but Bud has to complicate matters to get what
> > > > > > > he wants.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > *I* complicate things? Put all your ideas out there, cops moving
> > > > > > evidence around, some cops in on it, some not and the media filming during
> > > > > > all these shenanigans. Fritz going to Parkland but then return to plant
> > > > > > bullets, A bunch of nonsense that you can`t begin to support with reports
> > > > > > of chicken bones and window openings.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't think that this window-opening business here is germane to my
> > > > > "ideas". It's just a fact which you don't want to accept. It just takes
> > > > > a grain or two of sand off the sixth-floor side of the scale and puts it
> > > > > on the fifth floor. Apparently not conclusive of anything further....
> > > >
> > > > Move all the sand around you like, dw, it is a silly hobby.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Cornered, Bud resorts to generalities.
> >
> > How can I be "cornered", when you haven`t produced anything of
> > substance? My challenge, which you ignored, was for you to spell out your
> > ideas so they can be seen for what they really are, and be dismissed out
> > of hand. Tell us about "The Plan", what was it? Fritz had bullets on his
> > person, but went to Parkland first then returned to plant them?
>
> No. He picked them up on the fifth floor almost as soon as he came back.
> They were found about 12:55; he got there about 1:00.
how many people saw them, ect? There was a shooter on the 5th floor with
other witnesses and they somehow missed this? Spell it all out, dw, how do
your ideas possibly work?
> How were
> > these police enlisted, did someone approach them and say "Look, we are
> > going to shoot a popular President
>
> You keep using "popular". Don't forget that many hated him in Texas, as
> per the newspaper ads that month.
you can`t say that Dallas doesn`t love you".
It is a grand canyon jump between disliking a President and the things
you suggest. And it wouldn`t even take a Kennedy lover to get wind of the
things you suggest to blow the whistle, it could easily be someone who
didn`t like him.
And have you shown the least bit of animosity towards Kennedy by any of
these people you have "in on it"?
> , and we would like to enlist you help.
> > Even though there is no discernible upside for you to do this, and you are
> > risking your freedom, your life and you risk your family shamed and your
> > children tormented, we expect you will jump at the opportunity. And have
> > no fear of the intense scrutiny this crime will receive."
> >
>
> Actually, they'd probably start with, You know, we'll be the ones HANDLING
> THE EVIDENCE....
what you suggest could be a viable plan beforehand. You have dozens and
dozens of people involved, each a variable. The cops went up to the
seventh, in the attic with flashlights, but there were other cops just
moving around. And what if Brennan says "Look, Shooter!" (or anyone else
for that matter) and 50 or a hundred people instantly charge into the TSBD
and charge up every flight of steps and take every elevator? Or hundreds
of variations of this. Remember, these people involved are looking at the
death penalty, assuming that only people "in on it" will get control of
all the evidence before any media can film it would be just foolhardy,
you`d need a death wish to get involved in such an undertaking. And the
people you have most heavily involved aren`t even there at the most
critical time, immediately after the shooting. And what is the upside, can
you show anyone benefiting from this enormous risk? From a reality
oriented perspective it is silly from start to finish, so what is the
point of looking at window openings when they can`t possibly bear the
weight of the things you are suggesting?
> > > I guess Ben H is right--you simply
> > > run from facts.
> >
> > What facts have I been running from?
>
> See above.
> >
> > And using Ben Holmes as a source of wisdom is a bad sign.
> >
>
> Figured you'd say something like that. So predictable.
things you accept as fact.
> > I noticed this, see what you make of it. A voiceover on these excepts of
> > the Alyea film (at 0:22), apparently from the time of the assassination
> > says...
> >
> > "Gerry Hill, of the Dallas Police Department just leaned out a window,
> > and apparently they found some shells, they`re in that room..."
> >
>
> By saying "that room", they indicate that they, the speaker that is, was
> NOT in that room, and so they don't know WHAT was found.
indicating where shells were said to be found and the voiceover mentions
shells, and cops and deputies say shells were found there but all this is
trumped by chicken bones.
> And it's curious that there are photos of Hill at a window, but NONE of
> Deputy Mooney's famous shout out a window....
because it goes against you ideas and focus on something you don`t have.
> Somehow the photogs missed
> that, although Sgt. Harkness and Deputy Sweatt, below, heard Mooney!
>
> > https://youtu.be/3tM7lY_z9t0
> >
> > Gerry Hill, out the window of the 6th floor...
> >
> > https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth184839/m1/1/
> >
> > And this one, where he is more clearly indicating the SN window...
> >
> > http://i1.wp.com/altereddimensions.net/main/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Gerald-Hill-Leaning-Out-TSBD-Window.jpg
> >
>
> Yes, he's indicating the "sniper's nest", not shells.
"Gerry Hill, of the Dallas Police Department just leaned out a window,
and apparently they found some shells, they`re in that room..."
and apparently they found some shells, they`re in that room..."
> > Gerald Hill has the shells being found before Fritz got there (12:15 on)....
> >
> > https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGON3R3WFJoWDktX2s/view
> >
>
> Yes, Hill, Sawyer, and Valentine went upstairs about 12:50, found the
> shells about 12:55, very quickly, because--as Sawyer testified--officers
> had told Sawyer that they saw a rifle on the fifth floor, "second window
> from the end". (Patrolman Hill, Sgt. Harkness).
So you don`t dispute that the shells were found before Fritz arrived.
> >
> > https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGON3R3WFJoWDktX2s/view
> >
>
> Yes, Hill, Sawyer, and Valentine went upstairs about 12:50, found the
> shells about 12:55, very quickly, because--as Sawyer testified--officers
> had told Sawyer that they saw a rifle on the fifth floor, "second window
> from the end". (Patrolman Hill, Sgt. Harkness).
> > > > > > > All you have to do is go down one floor, not imagine the routes
> > > > > > > of officers or reasons for moving a window down a few inches....
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Easy peasy, and long as you totally disregard reality.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Your reality seems to have nothing to do with facts here!
> > > >
> > > > Facts are facts and silly figuring is silly figuring.
> > > >
> > > > Your figuring has a popular President killed and many people rushing
> > > > into the TSBD to immediately start moving evidence around with the media
> > > > filming. None of it makes any real-world sense, it is all a bunch of
> > > > imagination and nonsense.
> > >
> > > No, just clear examination of that clip you originally presented. YOU'RE
> > > the one moving things around in your mind....
> >
> > Are you denying that your idea is that members of the DPD rushed into
> > the TSBD and immediately started moving evidence around? These are not
> > your silly ideas?
> >
>
> Fritz went in and picked up the shells. He never denied that.
And you never denied that I accurately described your position as one
where members of the DPD rushed into the TSBD and started moving evidence
around.
donald willis
Dec 20, 2018, 2:04:43 PM12/20/18
to
doubted Alyea's Fritz-held-up-shell-for-me story. That would kind of go
against the grain of Fritz's '64 affidavit in which he did not deny nor
did he confirm that he picked up the shells. Certainly, the person who
wrote that would not have allowed filmed confirmation of the anecdote....
>
> Well, I say---Hogwash!
>
> There never was any film footage of Fritz picking up the shells. If Mr.
> Alyea ever said that such footage existed, he was most certainly mistaken.
> Because if it did exist in his film, it would have most certainly been
> shown on live WFAA-TV within hours (maybe less) of the assassination.
>
> Anyway, DCW, as you yourself pointed out, Tom Alyea doesn't mention
> "shells" at all in his 1993 public appearance. (But, I will admit, Hugh
> Aynesworth's annoying interruptions in that '93 program don't enhance
> Alyea's chances of being able to provide a complete account of his
> 11/22/63 actions.)
>
the rifle-discovery story...
dcw
donald willis
Dec 20, 2018, 10:14:53 PM12/20/18
to
On Thursday, December 20, 2018 at 7:21:54 AM UTC-8, Bud wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 19, 2018 at 3:11:54 PM UTC-5, donald willis wrote:
> > On Tuesday, December 18, 2018 at 6:08:32 PM UTC-8, Bud wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, December 18, 2018 at 4:02:54 PM UTC-5, donald willis wrote: CUT
> On Wednesday, December 19, 2018 at 3:11:54 PM UTC-5, donald willis wrote:
> > On Tuesday, December 18, 2018 at 6:08:32 PM UTC-8, Bud wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Either poltergeists are at work or people in the building are moving
> > > > > windows.
> > > >
> > > > OR... the cop in your original clip was on the FIFTH floor.
> > >
> > > OR... he was in the northeast window of the 6th.
> >
> > You have photos showing the same configuration of windows there??? Are or
> > you just speculating?
>
>
> These are your ideas. You are the one who needs to establish them.
>
So, yes, you're just speculating, based on nothing....
> > > > > Either poltergeists are at work or people in the building are moving
> > > > > windows.
> > > >
> > > > OR... the cop in your original clip was on the FIFTH floor.
> > >
> > > OR... he was in the northeast window of the 6th.
> >
> > You have photos showing the same configuration of windows there??? Are or
> > you just speculating?
>
>
> These are your ideas. You are the one who needs to establish them.
>
> > Again, you are the one
> > > who needs to establish these things. The building still stands, go there
> > > and take pictures showing the physical configurations that show your ideas
> > > to be correct.
11/22/63, so your ask is patently ridiculous.
Stop with the "show I am wrong or I get to believe silly
> > > things" approach.
> > >
> > > > Bud in denial
> > > > is a sight to see....
> > > >
> > > > You might see both as equal possibilities.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > The comparable SIXTH-floor window is wide open--at the beginning of the
> > > > > > filmstrip....
> > > > >
> > > > > <snicker> Clues, Don, clues!
> > > >
> > > > aka facts!
> > >
> > > It is a fact that Oswald said he was a patsy. It is also a fact that
> > > that doesn`t establish that he didn`t shoot and kill JFK.
> > >
> >
> > True. I'm 50-50 on that.... Of course, if you're admitting the first half
> > of that--that he was a patsy--then you're admitting there was a
> > conspiracy....
>
> Only if one is unable to make the distinction between Oswald saying it
> and it being true.
>
> > > Focusing on all the wrong "facts" is what is preventing you from
> > > figuring out a pretty simple crime.
> > >
> >
> > You have trouble with the "right" facts!
>
> What "facts" have you presented? Is it a fact that the "5" column is on
> the 5th floor? Is it a fact that Valentine is on the fifth floor in the
> photo you referenced?
>
filmstrip--is looking out the SIXTH-floor window. He is not.
And remember, I conceded that neither of us has enough photographic data
to establish WHAT floor Valentine is on.
>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Pretty simple, but Bud has to complicate matters to get what
> > > > > > > > he wants.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > *I* complicate things? Put all your ideas out there, cops moving
> > > > > > > evidence around, some cops in on it, some not and the media filming during
> > > > > > > all these shenanigans. Fritz going to Parkland but then return to plant
> > > > > > > bullets, A bunch of nonsense that you can`t begin to support with reports
> > > > > > > of chicken bones and window openings.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I don't think that this window-opening business here is germane to my
> > > > > > "ideas". It's just a fact which you don't want to accept. It just takes
> > > > > > a grain or two of sand off the sixth-floor side of the scale and puts it
> > > > > > on the fifth floor. Apparently not conclusive of anything further....
> > > > >
> > > > > Move all the sand around you like, dw, it is a silly hobby.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Cornered, Bud resorts to generalities.
> > >
> > > How can I be "cornered", when you haven`t produced anything of
> > > substance? My challenge, which you ignored, was for you to spell out your
> > > ideas so they can be seen for what they really are, and be dismissed out
> > > of hand. Tell us about "The Plan", what was it? Fritz had bullets on his
> > > person, but went to Parkland first then returned to plant them?
> >
> > No. He picked them up on the fifth floor almost as soon as he came back.
> > They were found about 12:55; he got there about 1:00.
>
> And he would know that Alyea didn`t film them, nobody photographed them,
> how many people saw them, ect? There was a shooter on the 5th floor with
> other witnesses and they somehow missed this?
were found on the FIFTH floor. They didn't miss it.
Alyea photographed the processing of the rifle by Day, but not that of the
shells. I'm wondering now if Alyea was even there for the discovery of
the shells. He doesn't mention shells in his statement near the end of
'64.
there at all to film the discovery.
photographers around taking pix of everything....
> And you never denied that I accurately described your position as one
> where members of the DPD rushed into the TSBD and started moving evidence
> around.
dcw
Bud
Dec 21, 2018, 10:46:08 AM12/21/18
to
On Thursday, December 20, 2018 at 10:14:53 PM UTC-5, donald willis wrote:
> On Thursday, December 20, 2018 at 7:21:54 AM UTC-8, Bud wrote:
> > On Wednesday, December 19, 2018 at 3:11:54 PM UTC-5, donald willis wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, December 18, 2018 at 6:08:32 PM UTC-8, Bud wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, December 18, 2018 at 4:02:54 PM UTC-5, donald willis wrote: CUT
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Either poltergeists are at work or people in the building are moving
> > > > > > windows.
> > > > >
> > > > > OR... the cop in your original clip was on the FIFTH floor.
> > > >
> > > > OR... he was in the northeast window of the 6th.
> > >
> > > You have photos showing the same configuration of windows there??? Are or
> > > you just speculating?
> >
> >
> > These are your ideas. You are the one who needs to establish them.
> >
>
> So, yes, you're just speculating, based on nothing....
These are your ideas we are examining, Don.
> On Thursday, December 20, 2018 at 7:21:54 AM UTC-8, Bud wrote:
> > On Wednesday, December 19, 2018 at 3:11:54 PM UTC-5, donald willis wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, December 18, 2018 at 6:08:32 PM UTC-8, Bud wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, December 18, 2018 at 4:02:54 PM UTC-5, donald willis wrote: CUT
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Either poltergeists are at work or people in the building are moving
> > > > > > windows.
> > > > >
> > > > > OR... the cop in your original clip was on the FIFTH floor.
> > > >
> > > > OR... he was in the northeast window of the 6th.
> > >
> > > You have photos showing the same configuration of windows there??? Are or
> > > you just speculating?
> >
> >
> > These are your ideas. You are the one who needs to establish them.
> >
>
> So, yes, you're just speculating, based on nothing....
> > > Again, you are the one
> > > > who needs to establish these things. The building still stands, go there
> > > > and take pictures showing the physical configurations that show your ideas
> > > > to be correct.
>
> I can't take pictures of the "physical configurations" of the windows on
> 11/22/63, so your ask is patently ridiculous.
>
> Stop with the "show I am wrong or I get to believe silly
>
> > > > things" approach.
> > > >
> > > > > Bud in denial
> > > > > is a sight to see....
> > > > >
> > > > > You might see both as equal possibilities.
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > The comparable SIXTH-floor window is wide open--at the beginning of the
> > > > > > > filmstrip....
> > > > > >
> > > > > > <snicker> Clues, Don, clues!
> > > > >
> > > > > aka facts!
> > > >
> > > > It is a fact that Oswald said he was a patsy. It is also a fact that
> > > > that doesn`t establish that he didn`t shoot and kill JFK.
> > > >
> > >
> > > True. I'm 50-50 on that.... Of course, if you're admitting the first half
> > > of that--that he was a patsy--then you're admitting there was a
> > > conspiracy....
> >
> > Only if one is unable to make the distinction between Oswald saying it
> > and it being true.
> >
> > > > Focusing on all the wrong "facts" is what is preventing you from
> > > > figuring out a pretty simple crime.
> > > >
> > >
> > > You have trouble with the "right" facts!
> >
> > What "facts" have you presented? Is it a fact that the "5" column is on
> > the 5th floor? Is it a fact that Valentine is on the fifth floor in the
> > photo you referenced?
> >
>
> I'm speaking of your erroneous guess that the cop--in your original
> filmstrip--is looking out the SIXTH-floor window. He is not.
avoiding.
> And remember, I conceded that neither of us has enough photographic data
> to establish WHAT floor Valentine is on.
> Alyea photographed the processing of the rifle by Day, but not that of the
> shells. I'm wondering now if Alyea was even there for the discovery of
> the shells. He doesn't mention shells in his statement near the end of
> '64.
>
>
> Spell it all out, dw, how do
> > your ideas possibly work?
> >
> > > How were
> > > > these police enlisted, did someone approach them and say "Look, we are
> > > > going to shoot a popular President
> > >
> > > You keep using "popular". Don't forget that many hated him in Texas, as
> > > per the newspaper ads that month.
> >
> > What did Nellie say to JFK right before Oswald shot him? "Mr President,
> > you can`t say that Dallas doesn`t love you".
> >
> > It is a grand canyon jump between disliking a President and the things
> > you suggest. And it wouldn`t even take a Kennedy lover to get wind of the
> > things you suggest to blow the whistle, it could easily be someone who
> > didn`t like him.
> >
> > And have you shown the least bit of animosity towards Kennedy by any of
> > these people you have "in on it"?
> > > , and we would like to enlist you help.
> > > > Even though there is no discernible upside for you to do this, and you are
> > > > risking your freedom, your life and you risk your family shamed and your
> > > > children tormented, we expect you will jump at the opportunity. And have
> > > > no fear of the intense scrutiny this crime will receive."
> > > >
> > >
> > > Actually, they'd probably start with, You know, we'll be the ones HANDLING
> > > THE EVIDENCE....
> >
> > The games you play can only be done retrospectively, you can`t show how
> > what you suggest could be a viable plan beforehand. You have dozens and
> > dozens of people involved, each a variable. The cops went up to the
> > seventh, in the attic with flashlights, but there were other cops just
> > moving around. And what if Brennan says "Look, Shooter!" (or anyone else
> > for that matter) and 50 or a hundred people instantly charge into the TSBD
> > and charge up every flight of steps and take every elevator? Or hundreds
> > of variations of this. Remember, these people involved are looking at the
> > death penalty, assuming that only people "in on it" will get control of
> > all the evidence before any media can film
>
> Worked in Oak Cliff,
in support of the silly things you imagine happening in the TSBD.
> and I'd say the TSBD too--as I say, I doubt Alyea was
> there at all to film the discovery.
filming things. Who would know what Alyea captured on film?
> it would be just foolhardy,
> > you`d need a death wish to get involved in such an undertaking. And the
> > people you have most heavily involved aren`t even there at the most
> > critical time, immediately after the shooting. And what is the upside, can
> > you show anyone benefiting from this enormous risk? From a reality
> > oriented perspective it is silly from start to finish, so what is the
> > point of looking at window openings when they can`t possibly bear the
> > weight of the things you are suggesting?
should be entertained either. I guess we are done.
being found on the 6th floor.
> > And you never denied that I accurately described your position as one
> > where members of the DPD rushed into the TSBD and started moving evidence
> > around.
>
> Nor did I mention the price of tea in China.
case?
> dcw
donald willis
Dec 21, 2018, 9:59:55 PM12/21/18
to
On Friday, December 21, 2018 at 7:46:08 AM UTC-8, Bud wrote:
> On Thursday, December 20, 2018 at 10:14:53 PM UTC-5, donald willis wrote:
> > On Thursday, December 20, 2018 at 7:21:54 AM UTC-8, Bud wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, December 19, 2018 at 3:11:54 PM UTC-5, donald willis wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, December 18, 2018 at 6:08:32 PM UTC-8, Bud wrote:
> > > > > On Tuesday, December 18, 2018 at 4:02:54 PM UTC-5, donald willis wrote: CUT
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Either poltergeists are at work or people in the building are moving
> > > > > > > windows.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > OR... the cop in your original clip was on the FIFTH floor.
> > > > >
> > > > > OR... he was in the northeast window of the 6th.
> > > >
> > > > You have photos showing the same configuration of windows there??? Are or
> > > > you just speculating?
> > >
> > >
> > > These are your ideas. You are the one who needs to establish them.
> > >
> >
> > So, yes, you're just speculating, based on nothing....
>
> These are your ideas we are examining, Don.
>
Bud is just speculating about windows he has never seen, lurkers.
> On Thursday, December 20, 2018 at 10:14:53 PM UTC-5, donald willis wrote:
> > On Thursday, December 20, 2018 at 7:21:54 AM UTC-8, Bud wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, December 19, 2018 at 3:11:54 PM UTC-5, donald willis wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, December 18, 2018 at 6:08:32 PM UTC-8, Bud wrote:
> > > > > On Tuesday, December 18, 2018 at 4:02:54 PM UTC-5, donald willis wrote: CUT
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Either poltergeists are at work or people in the building are moving
> > > > > > > windows.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > OR... the cop in your original clip was on the FIFTH floor.
> > > > >
> > > > > OR... he was in the northeast window of the 6th.
> > > >
> > > > You have photos showing the same configuration of windows there??? Are or
> > > > you just speculating?
> > >
> > >
> > > These are your ideas. You are the one who needs to establish them.
> > >
> >
> > So, yes, you're just speculating, based on nothing....
>
> These are your ideas we are examining, Don.
>
> > > > Again, you are the one
> > > > > who needs to establish these things. The building still stands, go there
> > > > > and take pictures showing the physical configurations that show your ideas
> > > > > to be correct.
> >
> > I can't take pictures of the "physical configurations" of the windows on
> > 11/22/63, so your ask is patently ridiculous.
>
> The structure remains the same.
>
> > And remember, I conceded that neither of us has enough photographic data
> > to establish WHAT floor Valentine is on.
>
> But I`m not using it is support of silly, fantastic ideas.
>
Jarman were even there, and believe that Williams was an accomplice.
before Benavides & the Davises supposedly picked them up.
>
> > and I'd say the TSBD too--as I say, I doubt Alyea was
> > there at all to film the discovery.
>
> Not really the point. The point is the media being in the building
> filming things. Who would know what Alyea captured on film?
>
Floor Window" for one example.)
> > > And you never denied that I accurately described your position as one
> > > where members of the DPD rushed into the TSBD and started moving evidence
> > > around.
> >
> > Nor did I mention the price of tea in China.
>
> Your positions in this case aren`t relevant to the discussions about the
> case?
>
conclusion (re the cop at the FIFTH-floor window)--that's the main
takeaway here....
dcw
Anthony Marsh
Dec 23, 2018, 1:06:01 PM12/23/18
to
> >
> > Well, I say---Hogwash!
> >
> > There never was any film footage of Fritz picking up the shells. If Mr.
> > Alyea ever said that such footage existed, he was most certainly mistaken.
> > Because if it did exist in his film, it would have most certainly been
> > shown on live WFAA-TV within hours (maybe less) of the assassination.
> >
as a fire hazard.
> > Anyway, DCW, as you yourself pointed out, Tom Alyea doesn't mention
> > "shells" at all in his 1993 public appearance. (But, I will admit, Hugh
> > Aynesworth's annoying interruptions in that '93 program don't enhance
> > Alyea's chances of being able to provide a complete account of his
> > 11/22/63 actions.)
> >
>
> Yes, I noticed that they didn't leave Alyea enough time even to recount
> the rifle-discovery story...
>
cut ouf of Rush to Judgment.
> dcw
donald willis
Dec 23, 2018, 5:09:54 PM12/23/18
to
scene a plainclothes detective, shotgun in hand, bends out of a half-open
FIFTH FLOOR southwest window...." That's the scene we see, and you deny
"fifth". And Trask is hardly a CT....
dcw
donald willis
Dec 23, 2018, 5:53:25 PM12/23/18
to
Kids and the Bowery Boys) with Our Gang. They WERE contemporaneous, if
that's a word.... But, yes, Leo Gorcey was the gang leader, when Huntz
Hall wasn't.
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