Questions re Palamara book Survivors' Guilt

[Dean Abramson]

I just read Vince Palamara's book. I found a lot of the evidence
compelling re Secret Service involvement in the assassination and coverup.

But this is one of the most poorly-written, worst-organized, and
atrociously-edited books I have read about the JFK murder. So in many
cases it is very hard to understand the point Vince is trying to make.
This is unfortunate, because his research is very impressive.

Palamara makes many references to the "security test(s)." He suggests that
many agents were duped into being unwitting enablers to the murder. (In
addition to suggesting that some agents were probably part of the actual
conspiracy to kill JFK.) But he does not really explain exactly what
scenario he is suggesting happened. My questions are these: What did the
duped agents think was going to happen that day? How could experienced
(non-conspiratorial) agents think there could be any rationale for
disregarding many standard protection procedures, when they were in an
actual motorcade, with the actual president, in an uncovered car, on a
route surrounded by countless buildings?

If anyone out there can explain to me exactly what Palamara thinks
happened, I'd love to hear it. What's the deal with the "security
test(s)?"

I personally believe there was witting and unwitting USCC involvement in
the murder and coverup. But even after reading his lengthy book, it is
unclear to me what V.P. actually thinks happened.

????

[John McAdams]

On 31 Jan 2016 19:21:22 -0500, Dean Abramson <deanab...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>I just read Vince Palamara's book. I found a lot of the evidence
>compelling re Secret Service involvement in the assassination and coverup.
>
>But this is one of the most poorly-written, worst-organized, and
>atrociously-edited books I have read about the JFK murder. So in many
>cases it is very hard to understand the point Vince is trying to make.
>This is unfortunate, because his research is very impressive.
>
>Palamara makes many references to the "security test(s)." He suggests that
>many agents were duped into being unwitting enablers to the murder. (In
>addition to suggesting that some agents were probably part of the actual
>conspiracy to kill JFK.) But he does not really explain exactly what
>scenario he is suggesting happened. My questions are these: What did the
>duped agents think was going to happen that day? How could experienced
>(non-conspiratorial) agents think there could be any rationale for
>disregarding many standard protection procedures,

I don't know much about exactly what Palamara thinks, but the
"standard protection procedures" thing is a factoid.

The "standard procedure" was to subordinate security to politics.

And the Secret Service has never told people what "standard
procedures" are, for obvious reasons.

It is possible to compare security in Dallas to other motorcades, and
nothing about Dallas was "out of line."

.John
-----------------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

[slats]

he really is a malicious human being. the SS admitted they failed. the
individual agents admitted they failed. many have been racked with guilt
for 50+ years. Clint Hill was forced into early retirement because of said
guilt. yet for Palamara, this isn't enough. he has to twist the knife and
question their honor. despicable.

[Ace Kefford]

Great post, John!

So many of these "critics" act as though all agencies operate perfectly by
some ideal standard and so any deviance from that state of perfection is
suspicious. That ain't the real world, folks.

I would advice all the amateur detectives to read a bit about the
assassination attempts on Ford to get some idea of how in real life
security is less than what they imagine it is based on the movies and
"24".

[Anthony Marsh]

On 1/31/2016 10:54 PM, John McAdams wrote:
> On 31 Jan 2016 19:21:22 -0500, Dean Abramson <deanab...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I just read Vince Palamara's book. I found a lot of the evidence
>> compelling re Secret Service involvement in the assassination and coverup.
>>
>> But this is one of the most poorly-written, worst-organized, and
>> atrociously-edited books I have read about the JFK murder. So in many
>> cases it is very hard to understand the point Vince is trying to make.
>> This is unfortunate, because his research is very impressive.
>>
>> Palamara makes many references to the "security test(s)." He suggests that
>> many agents were duped into being unwitting enablers to the murder. (In
>> addition to suggesting that some agents were probably part of the actual
>> conspiracy to kill JFK.) But he does not really explain exactly what
>> scenario he is suggesting happened. My questions are these: What did the
>> duped agents think was going to happen that day? How could experienced
>> (non-conspiratorial) agents think there could be any rationale for
>> disregarding many standard protection procedures,
>
> I don't know much about exactly what Palamara thinks, but the
> "standard protection procedures" thing is a factoid.
>

Exactly. It comes only from Prouty. And Prouty did not witness all
motorcades. He was thinking about the foreign trips.

> The "standard procedure" was to subordinate security to politics.
>

Not exactly. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. JFK got fed up with the SS
agents on the rear bumper. The side bumpers were too dangerous to use so
they used the rear bumper. He ordered them off. The SS bit its lip and
said, "Yes, boss."

> And the Secret Service has never told people what "standard
> procedures" are, for obvious reasons.
>

Yes, you have to keep secrets for 10,000 years. Like invisible ink. Forget
that it was revealed in a kid's magazine, the public must not know about
it. TOP SECRET NODIS. Like all other TOP SECRETS our enemies knew about it
before the public did.

> It is possible to compare security in Dallas to other motorcades, and
> nothing about Dallas was "out of line."
>

So you personally know and can confirm that the night before every
motorcade the SS went out drinking til 5AM. Bet you knew about the
prostitutes too.

> .John
> -----------------------
> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
>

[mainframetech]

One of the things that happened around that time was that Floyd Boring
told others that JFK wanted no one around the limousine, later others
stated that JFK never interfered with the protocols the SS set. Floyd
Boring was also odd when the ARRB wanted to inteview him.

"The interview begins with Boring exclaiming "I didn't have anything to do
with it, and I don't know anything." A surprising way to start an
interview, and one that might generate some suspicion.

Another of the SS that might have been part of the conspiracy were Roy
Kellerman who almost came to a shooting war in Parkland hospital to steal
the body of JFK from the Medical Examiner Earl Rose. Rose was in the
right in wanting the body to stay and be autopsied there by him, and he
had plenty of experience to do it. Kellerman led the rebellion of the SS
agents and opposed Rose until with a show of guns, they got away with the
body. If the body had been autopsied at that time by Rose, many things
would have been proven about the conspiracy and the direction of the
bullets that hit JFK.

Another SS agent that acted suspiciously was Greer, the drigver of the
limo during the shooting. After the first 2 shot rang out, Greer brought
the limousine almost to a stop. That made the final shot much more
acccurate. The sensible thing would be to hit the gas and get out of the
'trap' area at high speed. This video shows the brake lights come on on
the limousine, and Bobby Hargis a motorcop that paced the limousine from
the rear and to the left, speaks too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0Ta8PsYJfU

Chris

[mainframetech]

On Sunday, January 31, 2016 at 7:21:22 PM UTC-5, Dean Abramson wrote:

Sorry, here's another item that might have a bearing on the SS being
part of the conspiracy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XY02Qkuc_f8

Many will argue about this video, but make your own decisions when you
see it.

Chris

[Anthony Marsh]

On 1/31/2016 7:21 PM, Dean Abramson wrote:
> I just read Vince Palamara's book. I found a lot of the evidence
> compelling re Secret Service involvement in the assassination and coverup.
>
> But this is one of the most poorly-written, worst-organized, and
> atrociously-edited books I have read about the JFK murder. So in many
> cases it is very hard to understand the point Vince is trying to make.
> This is unfortunate, because his research is very impressive.
>

Do you know Vince? NO. I do. I have talked to him many times and
explained why he is wrong.

> Palamara makes many references to the "security test(s)." He suggests that
> many agents were duped into being unwitting enablers to the murder. (In
> addition to suggesting that some agents were probably part of the actual
> conspiracy to kill JFK.) But he does not really explain exactly what
> scenario he is suggesting happened. My questions are these: What did the
> duped agents think was going to happen that day? How could experienced
> (non-conspiratorial) agents think there could be any rationale for
> disregarding many standard protection procedures, when they were in an
> actual motorcade, with the actual president, in an uncovered car, on a
> route surrounded by countless buildings?
>

Well, in fact the SS agents were ordered to stop riding on the back
bumper as they had in Tampa. Hill violated that order and kept hopping
onto the back bumper. Maybe some agents took that order as a loosening
of security. Certainly many agents were disturbed by Kennedy walking
around a the airport and stopping to shake hands with the public.
Even stopping the limo in the middle of the street to talk to the kids.
And certainly the motorcade went at a much slower speed than some past
motorcades had gone. But some motorcades had gone so slowly that agents
WALKED along with the limo. Not every motorcade is the same.
Some agents thought that there would be an assassination attempt or at
least someone trying to attack the President. His life had been
threatened. The Chief of Police went on TV the night before to warn the
public to be on their best behavior.

> If anyone out there can explain to me exactly what Palamara thinks
> happened, I'd love to hear it. What's the deal with the "security
> test(s)?"
>

Yes, I can, because I've discussed this with him for hours.
At minimum have 2 SS agents standing up on the rear bumper. He actually
thinks they would have reacted instantly and blocked the shots.
Have the limo surrounded by motorcycles. That would prevent some nut
from shooting from the sidewalk or running up to the limo as some
spectators have done before.

> I personally believe there was witting and unwitting USCC involvement in
> the murder and coverup. But even after reading his lengthy book, it is
> unclear to me what V.P. actually thinks happened.
>

What about Greer slowing down instead of speeding up? The SS practices
ever day and they are taught to speed away. One thing Vince missed was
Clint Hill running to catch up with the limo. Maybe Greer was waiting
for Hill to get onto the limo, then he sped off.
How about if they didn't go out drinking the night before, but instead
got a good night's sleep? Is that too much to ask?
I know there was no SS involvement in the conspiracy.
When in doubt, incompetence explains mistakes more than conspiracy.

> ????
>

[Anthony Marsh]

The proper word is not malicious. Misguided. He really believes the SS
failures were conspiracy rather than incompetence.

[mainframetech]

And yet many of the SS agents consider him a good friend, while knowing
what he has said on his website and in print. Maybe they know something
we don't.

Chris

[OHLeeRedux]

Anthony Marsh

On 1/31/2016 7:21 PM, Dean Abramson wrote:

> I just read Vince Palamara's book. I found a lot of the evidence
> compelling re Secret Service involvement in the assassination and coverup.
>
> But this is one of the most poorly-written, worst-organized, and
> atrociously-edited books I have read about the JFK murder. So in many
> cases it is very hard to understand the point Vince is trying to make.
> This is unfortunate, because his research is very impressive.
>

Do you know Vince? NO. I do. I have talked to him many times and
explained why he is wrong.

No, you haven't. Why can't you just state your opinion without making
things up?

[Anthony Marsh]

Garbage. You have no bullshit filter. You believe everything you see on
the Internet. This is very old news. We debunked that video on this very
newsgroup many years ago. There was no standdown order. There were too
many men in the SS car. But do you know why? Because 2 regular passengers
were kicked out to make room for Kennedy's aides shooting some home movies
to be use in the next campaign.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 2/2/2016 12:03 AM, mainframetech wrote:

This is one of the mistakes that Vince makes.
JFK did not go around to each and every SS agent explaining what he
wanted done. He gave orders through his aides to be passed along to the
head of the WH detail who when would pass it on to the head of the team
that went out and he told the rest of the agents under him. No one had
to explain the reason for the order. JFK made it clear over the two-way
radio that he didn't want the agents on the limo.

> Boring was also odd when the ARRB wanted to inteview him.
>
> "The interview begins with Boring exclaiming "I didn't have anything to do
> with it, and I don't know anything." A surprising way to start an
> interview, and one that might generate some suspicion.
>
> Another of the SS that might have been part of the conspiracy were Roy
> Kellerman who almost came to a shooting war in Parkland hospital to steal
> the body of JFK from the Medical Examiner Earl Rose. Rose was in the
> right in wanting the body to stay and be autopsied there by him, and he
> had plenty of experience to do it. Kellerman led the rebellion of the SS

There was no "rebellion" of SS agents. They were just following orders
from LBJ who was acting as President.
You always misuse words to put your own spin on events.
That is dishonest. Stop it.

> agents and opposed Rose until with a show of guns, they got away with the
> body. If the body had been autopsied at that time by Rose, many things
> would have been proven about the conspiracy and the direction of the
> bullets that hit JFK.
>

Yes, and Jackie would have stayed with the body, so LBJ would have to
stay, and when the bombs started falling there would be no President to
order a counter-attack and the US would have been destroyed in 2 hours.
Does that sound like fun to you?

> Another SS agent that acted suspiciously was Greer, the drigver of the
> limo during the shooting. After the first 2 shot rang out, Greer brought
> the limousine almost to a stop. That made the final shot much more
> acccurate. The sensible thing would be to hit the gas and get out of the

The Hell with sensible. It's what they're taught to do.

> 'trap' area at high speed. This video shows the brake lights come on on
> the limousine, and Bobby Hargis a motorcop that paced the limousine from

No, it doesn't. The tail lights never come on.
Stop spreading disinformation.

> the rear and to the left, speaks too:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0Ta8PsYJfU
>

Watching YouTube is rotting your brain. Try watching the cat playing the
piano videos or Harris beating his guitar videos.

> Chris
>
>
>

[Anthony Marsh]

Yes, and I told Vince exactly that in person. Lord only knows how many
assassination attempts failed due to incompetence.

> I would advice all the amateur detectives to read a bit about the
> assassination attempts on Ford to get some idea of how in real life
> security is less than what they imagine it is based on the movies and
> "24".
>

Yes, it's always good to compare it to other assassinations and
attempts, but make sure to pay attention to little details.

[OHLeeRedux]

mainframetech
- show quoted text -

And yet many of the SS agents consider him a good friend, while knowing
what he has said on his website and in print.

You have no idea what SS agents think about anything.

Don't be like Marsh, just throwing things out there without knowing what
you're talking about.

[Anthony Marsh]

Maybe he didn't tell them beforehand what his article/book would say.

> Chris
>

[slats]

mainframetech <mainfr...@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:64b9a900-c485-446a...@googlegroups.com:

you make three bad assumptions:

1. his website existed before he wrote his book
2. that old SS agents were Internet savvy and saw said website
3. that he was up front with them about his "Secret Service stand down"
conspiracy theory

[David Von Pein]

ANTHONY MARSH SAID:

2 regular passengers were kicked out [of the Queen Mary SS follow-up car
in Dallas on 11/22/63] to make room for Kennedy's aides shooting some home

movies to be use in the next campaign.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

It's interesting to note that it wasn't uncommon at all for both Dave
Powers and Kenneth O'Donnell to ride in the Secret Service car during
motorcades. It would seem as if Powers and O'Donnell were "regular
passengers" in the SS car. More examples:

Berlin (6/26/63):
http://www.jfklibrary.org/Asset-Viewer/Archives/JFKWHP-KN-C29293.aspx

Naples, Italy (7/2/63):
http://www.jfklibrary.org/Asset-Viewer/Archives/JFKWHP-KN-C29317.aspx

[Anthony Marsh]

It's not my opinion. It's what Vince and I talked about.
I have talked to him at several conferences. He was very interested in
my research and lecture on the limousine.
I don't make things up. And I post the proof for all to see. Those who
have a conscience.

[mainframetech]

It would help avoid diminishing your reputation if you asked about it
before firing off. I know that Palamara's recent book "Survivor's Guilt"
tells a lot of 'inside' information:

http://www.amazon.com/Survivors-Guilt-Service-Failure-President/dp/1937584607

The information in this book, "Survivor's Guilt" by Palamara had to be
compiled from speaking to SS agents himself. And if they didn't like him,
they never would have revealed the 'dirty details' that they told him. I
have also seen other comments from SS agents speaking of Palamara in good
terms.

So can the crap and think it through.

Chris

[mainframetech]

1. Palamara's website pre-dated his book "Survivor's Guilt" because I
saw it myself a good while before the publish date of the book (2013).

2. A numbr of agents are sure to have lived past the start date of
Palamara's website, and have knowledge of the internet and how to look up
information.

3. The 'stand down' reason has been passed around for many years, so
they surely had heard it by now.

Chris

[Anthony Marsh]

On 2/3/2016 8:06 PM, David Von Pein wrote:
> ANTHONY MARSH SAID:
>
> 2 regular passengers were kicked out [of the Queen Mary SS follow-up car
> in Dallas on 11/22/63] to make room for Kennedy's aides shooting some home
> movies to be use in the next campaign.
>
>
> DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
>
> It's interesting to note that it wasn't uncommon at all for both Dave
> Powers and Kenneth O'Donnell to ride in the Secret Service car during
> motorcades. It would seem as if Powers and O'Donnell were "regular
> passengers" in the SS car. More examples:
>
> Berlin (6/26/63):
> http://www.jfklibrary.org/Asset-Viewer/Archives/JFKWHP-KN-C29293.aspx
>

Great find. But if Knudsen was taking the photo what photographer was in
the SS car? As Stoughton was for San Antonio and was SUPPOSED to be for
Dallas? He was kicked out to make room for Powers and O'Donnell. That's MY
point.

But thanks for the photo. Did you notice the blue streak? Light leakage.
That's the same type of streak that I saw on one of the autopsy photos
that none of you WC defenders have ever seen. But I didn't have any
example to show what I mean. Now I do. Serendipity.

Also, can you figure out that he was in the flatbed truck from the high
angle and the back of someone's head in the foreground? This is why some
kooks claim that they did not use the flatbed truck right in front of the
limo as they had done in other motorcades.

> Naples, Italy (7/2/63):
> http://www.jfklibrary.org/Asset-Viewer/Archives/JFKWHP-KN-C29317.aspx
>

Is that the same SS car? Not as many SS agents as Dallas and none on the
running boards. Looks like a highway.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 2/3/2016 7:56 PM, slats wrote:
> mainframetech <mainfr...@yahoo.com> wrote in
> news:64b9a900-c485-446a...@googlegroups.com:
>
>> On Monday, February 1, 2016 at 5:45:18 PM UTC-5, slats wrote:
>>> he really is a malicious human being. the SS admitted they failed.
>>> the individual agents admitted they failed. many have been racked
>>> with guilt for 50+ years. Clint Hill was forced into early retirement
>>> because of said guilt. yet for Palamara, this isn't enough. he has to
>>> twist the knife and question their honor. despicable.
>>
>>
>>
>> And yet many of the SS agents consider him a good friend, while
>> knowing
>> what he has said on his website and in print. Maybe they know
>> something we don't.
>>
>> Chris
>>
>
> you make three bad assumptions:
>

He always does. Nothing new there.

> 1. his website existed before he wrote his book
> 2. that old SS agents were Internet savvy and saw said website
> 3. that he was up front with them about his "Secret Service stand down"
> conspiracy theory
>

Do you know Vince? No. Does Chris know Vince? No. But I do.
And I got the impression from talking to him that he buttered them up
and sandbagged them, all the while believing they were part of the
conspiracy.

[Anthony Marsh]

Well, as it happens one of my father's friends was a Secret Service agent.

[Ralph Cinque]

"he really is a malicious human being"

Wow! John McAdams allowed that to be published about Vince Palamara? That
is amazing!

What if Ralph Cinque had written that Vince Bugliosi really was a
malicious human being? Would that have been allowed? I don't think so.

You can see plain as day in the Altgens photo that Emory Roberts, the head
SS agent in the Queen Mary was talking on the car phone during the
shooting.

http://tinypic.com/r/2n8pq0x/9

[David Von Pein]

http://www.jfklibrary.org/Asset-Viewer/Archives/JFKWHP-1963-07-02-E.aspx

[slats]

Anthony Marsh <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote in
news:56b3aec5$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu:

It's the same car, and agents didn't always ride the boards during a
motorcade.

http://s22.postimg.org/h9kep6a3l/JFKWHP_KN_C20636.jpg

http://s7.postimg.org/9v2hc4b1n/472146592.jpg

[Anthony Marsh]

Jeez, I was hoping you's say CELL phone! ;])

[Anthony Marsh]

Sure, one maybe.

>
> 3. The 'stand down' reason has been passed around for many years, so
> they surely had heard it by now.
>

Oh, they HEARD about. And wanted to sue.

> Chris
>

[Anthony Marsh]

On 2/4/2016 11:13 PM, mainframetech wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 3, 2016 at 2:56:41 PM UTC-5, OHLeeRedux wrote:
>> mainframetech
>> - show quoted text -
>> And yet many of the SS agents consider him a good friend, while knowing
>> what he has said on his website and in print.
>>
>>
>>
>> You have no idea what SS agents think about anything.
>>
>> Don't be like Marsh, just throwing things out there without knowing what
>> you're talking about.
>
>
> It would help avoid diminishing your reputation if you asked about it
> before firing off. I know that Palamara's recent book "Survivor's Guilt"
> tells a lot of 'inside' information:
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Survivors-Guilt-Service-Failure-President/dp/1937584607
>
> The information in this book, "Survivor's Guilt" by Palamara had to be
> compiled from speaking to SS agents himself. And if they didn't like him,

Who said they had to like him?

> they never would have revealed the 'dirty details' that they told him. I
> have also seen other comments from SS agents speaking of Palamara in good
> terms.
>

They did not reveal the dirty details. Vince made them up.

> So can the crap and think it through.
>

Don't think it through. Do some actual research.

> Chris
>

[Dean Abramson]

I appreciate all the input, folks.

[Anthony Marsh]

Yeah, we said that already. You're not playing along.