Marina Oswald

[David Von Pein]

Look at all of the times that the conspiracy theorists once again get to
call Marina Oswald a liar (via CE993 and CE994, featured at the link
below, which is Marina's very intriguing narrative of events that she
prepared at the request of the Warren Commission in 1964).

In her own words (and in her own Russian handwriting), she talks about how
her husband, Lee Harvey Oswald, took a shot at General Walker....and she
talks about the rifle that she saw with her own eyes in Ruth Paine's
garage....and she talks about how "Lee had even hit me at times, for
absolute trifles" (which is yet another thing that many CTers try to deny,
as they insist that there's no evidence at all that Lee ever laid a hand
on Marina in a violent manner). But Marina tells a much different
story....

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2019/08/narrative-prepared-by-marina-oswald.html

[BOZ]

Did Marina mention that she had sex with Robert? That's in Mrs. Paine's
Garage.

[Steve M. Galbraith]

One of the more interesting aspects of her story was how Oswald changed
dramatically upon their return to the US. His anger increased, the
beatings became more prevalent and harsher (no more open handed
slaps).....

If you look at his behavior in the USSR where he was mostly apolitical (he
mocked the mandatory attendance of the Komsomol meetings of his
co-workers) and satisfied with his life to that in the US it's almost as
if it's two different people (there's one for the Lee/Harvey crowd).

Priscilla McMillan mentioned this in her review of the Savodnik book:
"[T]he anger and violence that were to characterize Oswald’s
behavior after his return to the United States were barely visible during
his time in Minsk."

In all of the accounts of his life I've read I've never found a real
explanation on this change. At least one that satisfied me.

[bpete1969]

On Friday, August 2, 2019 at 1:26:20 PM UTC-4, David Von Pein wrote:

David, you didn't hear? Judyth Very Faker HEEEEaled Ozzy of beating his
wife. Picture Judyth smacking Ozzy on the forehead Ernest Angley style.

[David Von Pein]

Ridiculous.

[BOZ]

Marina cheated on Oswald in Russia. Marina was a promiscuous slut.

[Anthony Marsh]

All irrelevant to 11/22/63. She did not SEE Oswald take the rifle out of
thre garage and take it to work. Stop making up crap.
You never talked to her, did you? No, that would be almost like
research. Stick to you old baseball games.

>
> http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2019/08/narrative-prepared-by-marina-oswald.html
>

[Anthony Marsh]

WTF? Marina had sex with Robert in the Paine's garage?

[Anthony Marsh]

On 8/2/2019 11:00 PM, Steve M. Galbraith wrote:
> On Friday, August 2, 2019 at 1:26:20 PM UTC-4, David Von Pein wrote:
>> Look at all of the times that the conspiracy theorists once again get to
>> call Marina Oswald a liar (via CE993 and CE994, featured at the link
>> below, which is Marina's very intriguing narrative of events that she
>> prepared at the request of the Warren Commission in 1964).
>>
>> In her own words (and in her own Russian handwriting), she talks about how
>> her husband, Lee Harvey Oswald, took a shot at General Walker....and she
>> talks about the rifle that she saw with her own eyes in Ruth Paine's
>> garage....and she talks about how "Lee had even hit me at times, for
>> absolute trifles" (which is yet another thing that many CTers try to deny,
>> as they insist that there's no evidence at all that Lee ever laid a hand
>> on Marina in a violent manner). But Marina tells a much different
>> story....
>>
>> http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2019/08/narrative-prepared-by-marina-oswald.html
>
> One of the more interesting aspects of her story was how Oswald changed
> dramatically upon their return to the US. His anger increased, the
> beatings became more prevalent and harsher (no more open handed
> slaps).....
>
> If you look at his behavior in the USSR where he was mostly apolitical (he
> mocked the mandatory attendance of the Komsomol meetings of his
> co-workers) and satisfied with his life to that in the US it's almost as
> if it's two different people (there's one for the Lee/Harvey crowd).
>

Now wait a second! You are lending credence to Hoover's theory that the
Russians sent back an imposter.

> Priscilla McMillan mentioned this in her review of the Savodnik book:

> "[T]he anger and violence that were to characterize Oswald???s

> behavior after his return to the United States were barely visible during
> his time in Minsk."
>

Gee, I wonder why? Maybe the level of frustration was not as high in
Russia. If you don't like it here, why don't you go back to your own county.

> In all of the accounts of his life I've read I've never found a real
> explanation on this change. At least one that satisfied me.
>

MK/ULTRA?
FBI harassment?

[19efppp]

Maybe this explains why she adjusted so well to the capitalist system.

[BOZ]

True story. Marina had an affair with Robert after Lee was murdered. It's
in a book called Mrs. Paines Garage

[Steve M. Galbraith]

Apparently so. And it probably contributed to the estrangement between
Marina and Ruth since Robert viewed the Paines, certainly Ruth if not
Michael, with disdain.

From the book (Thomas Mallon): "In the period after the assassination,
Marina had a brief affair with Robert Oswald. Their involvement may have
provided the chance for almost mythic mutual revenge against a brother and
husband; surely it made the new gap between Marina and Ruth even less
bridgeable. Marina was now subject to Robert's viewpoint and her own
shame; the two conditions conspired to lock out her old friend." pg. 87.

[BOZ]

Communist women tend to be the biggest sluts.

[David Von Pein]

On Sunday, August 4, 2019 at 8:09:56 AM UTC-4, Anthony Marsh wrote:
> On 8/2/2019 1:26 PM, David Von Pein wrote:
> > Look at all of the times that the conspiracy theorists once again get to
> > call Marina Oswald a liar (via CE993 and CE994, featured at the link
> > below, which is Marina's very intriguing narrative of events that she
> > prepared at the request of the Warren Commission in 1964).
> >
> > In her own words (and in her own Russian handwriting), she talks about how
> > her husband, Lee Harvey Oswald, took a shot at General Walker....and she
> > talks about the rifle that she saw with her own eyes in Ruth Paine's
> > garage....and she talks about how "Lee had even hit me at times, for
> > absolute trifles" (which is yet another thing that many CTers try to deny,
> > as they insist that there's no evidence at all that Lee ever laid a hand
> > on Marina in a violent manner). But Marina tells a much different
> > story....
>
> All irrelevant to 11/22/63.

Only a CTer with very thick blinders on could possibly say that the Walker
shooting incident is totally "irrelevant" to Oswald's action on 11/22/63.

Marsh is such a CTer.



> She did not SEE Oswald take the rifle out of the garage and take it to work.

And I never said she did. Why not try focusing on what I *did* say
instead.



> Stop making up crap.

Pot collides head-on with Kettle (once again). The irony never stops
flowing when conversing with JFK conspiracy theorists.

[Anthony Marsh]

And here I thought you had run out of things to hate!

[Anthony Marsh]

On 8/5/2019 10:03 AM, David Von Pein wrote:
> On Sunday, August 4, 2019 at 8:09:56 AM UTC-4, Anthony Marsh wrote:
>> On 8/2/2019 1:26 PM, David Von Pein wrote:
>>> Look at all of the times that the conspiracy theorists once again get to
>>> call Marina Oswald a liar (via CE993 and CE994, featured at the link
>>> below, which is Marina's very intriguing narrative of events that she
>>> prepared at the request of the Warren Commission in 1964).
>>>
>>> In her own words (and in her own Russian handwriting), she talks about how
>>> her husband, Lee Harvey Oswald, took a shot at General Walker....and she
>>> talks about the rifle that she saw with her own eyes in Ruth Paine's
>>> garage....and she talks about how "Lee had even hit me at times, for
>>> absolute trifles" (which is yet another thing that many CTers try to deny,
>>> as they insist that there's no evidence at all that Lee ever laid a hand
>>> on Marina in a violent manner). But Marina tells a much different
>>> story....
>>
>> All irrelevant to 11/22/63.
>
> Only a CTer with very thick blinders on could possibly say that the Walker
> shooting incident is totally "irrelevant" to Oswald's action on 11/22/63.
>
> Marsh is such a CTer.
>

No. I just reject your jumping to conclusions.
If anything I would point out that the CARCANO missed its target in both
cases due to the same defect.

>
>
>> She did not SEE Oswald take the rifle out of the garage and take it to work.
>
> And I never said she did. Why not try focusing on what I *did* say
> instead.
>

You did not come up with anything convincing.

>
>
>> Stop making up crap.
>
> Pot collides head-on with Kettle (once again). The irony never stops
> flowing when conversing with JFK conspiracy theorists.
>
>

Just stop doing it.

[Mark]

Been some time since I read that. Very interesting. Thanks for posting
it. Mark

[David Emerling]

I Russia, Oswald was of interest to many people. He was different. He like
the attention. In fact, that was Marina's initial fascination with him. He
spoke Russian with an accent that Marina mistook as Oswald being from some
exotic area of the Soviet Union. She was not familiar with what an English
accent would sound like.

Once Oswald returned to the United States, it was a harsh reminder to him
that he was not special in any way. He was poor by most standards. He
couldn't drive a car. He couldn't get quality employment. Soon, Marina
realized that she an American who was from a low economic spectrum and
that he could never afford her what she envisioned as a luxurious life in
the United States. She would denigrate him on this issue. Oswald grew
increasingly jealous of how the more well-to-do Russian immigrants in the
Dallas area, who embraced Marina, could provide more for her than he
could.

Consequently, I think Oswald grew more angry and cynical upon his return
to the United States, much more so than before he left for Russia.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[Anthony Marsh]

Then why did he return to the US if he was so happy in Russia? What if
Marina mrried him only to get to the US?

> David Emerling
> Memphis, TN
>

[Pamela Brown]

On Friday, August 2, 2019 at 12:26:20 PM UTC-5, David Von Pein wrote:

Not all CT's walk past Lee's treatment of Marina. I have no trouble
believing that Lee hit Marina and was very cruel to her...

Pamela
marinaenigma.blogspot.com

[Pamela Brown]

Just my two cents -- I think Lee felt increasingly trapped by Marina.
Whatever he thought he was going to accomplish by marrying her (and no, I
don't think it was simply love, was not happening. She did not know where
he was a lot of the time, and, of course, he tried to send her back to the
USSR.

When I spoke with Agent Hosty I wanted to hear him talk about the limo and
Lee, but he insisted on talking about Marina. He said he thought she was
a sleeper agent. If there is any possibility this was the case, Lee could
have become increasingly wary and suspicious of her, perhaps sensing a
hidden agenda that he could not figure out until he realized he was the
patsy of the JFK assassination.

Pamela
marinaenigma.blogspot.com

[BOZ]

Sleeper agent or slept with agents?

[Anthony Marsh]

I've heard that too, but I really doubt that she was.
It usually takes a lot more training and usually at an Ameritown to
learn how to blend in and appear to be an American.

[Steve M. Galbraith]

David: Yes, I think that, i.e., his failure to make a life for himself in
the US (Marina says she found him openly weeping in their kitchen after he
was fired from the photographic company; he told her he didn't know what
they were going to do), explains the violence against Marina but where did
the political "violence" - the attempt on Walker, the agitation for Castro
and then finally the assassination - come from?

Was the political part of the personal? That is, he blamed the US
capitalist and political systems for his own failures? Of course he
expressed hatred of those systems before he went to the USSR.

[Pamela Brown]

Both.

[Anthony Marsh]

Certain people in the FBI and CIA suspected that Marina was either a
sleeper agent or Oswald's GRU handler.

[Anthony Marsh]

People often do that when they can't admit their failures.
Blame it on the blacks, or the Muslims, or the Mexicans, or the Jews.

>

[Steve M. Galbraith]

Or the CIA.

Of course, nobody here falls into that category.

[chucksch...@gmail.com]

Or Trump.

[Anthony Marsh]

The FBI had no proof that Marina was a sleeper agent.

[Mitch Todd]

And who said there were no fringe benefits to espionage?

[Anthony Marsh]

The CIA never had anything to do with any of MY failures, but they did
cause my family harm by experimenting on my father. He had to resign
from the NSA.

[Anthony Marsh]

Yes, Trump is A perfect example. He blames everything on someone else.

[Anthony Marsh]

Now wait a minute. Do you think that Sleeper Agent means you get to
sleep with her?

[Pamela Brown]

That sounds like something McAdams would say.

Certainly the FBI had no evidence that they followed up on. This was SA
Hosty's personal belief.

I think there might be a case to be made for Marina to have been used to
inform someone, such as George deM, of Lee's whereabouts so that he could
be successfully set up as the Dallas patsy. If so, that might have
worked, as that is what Lee called himself -- a patsy.

Pamela
marinaenigma.blogspot.com

[Pamela Brown]

He was not happy in Russia. He wanted to be treated as a privileged
person. He wanted them to send him to college. He did not like ending up
in a dead-end job in Minsk.

What if
> Marina mrried him only to get to the US?

I see it the other way -- Lee married Marina in order to return to the US
as a privileged person who would be treated with respect and not sent to
prison for at least threatening to commit treason. That, of course, did
not happen either.

Pamela Brown
marinaenigma.blogspot.com

[Pamela Brown]

Lee was an agitator. It could be said that he was attempting to create a
Hegelian tragedy where both sides would destroy each other, but I don't
think he was that smart. He just kept turning on everyone.

>
> Was the political part of the personal? That is, he blamed the US
> capitalist and political systems for his own failures? Of course he
> expressed hatred of those systems before he went to the USSR.

I think Lee came to blame both systems for his failures. He also came to
b disillusioned by the USSR and the fact that they did not give him
special treatment.

Pamela
marinaenigma.blogspot.com

[Anthony Marsh]

Not sure it was Treason just to defect. They did give him a less than
honorable discharge for offering secrets, but he never went through with
it because the Soviets would not grant him citizenship.

>
> Pamela Brown
> marinaenigma.blogspot.com
>

[Anthony Marsh]

On 8/15/2019 4:00 PM, Pamela Brown wrote:

Well, sure, you could say that, but no one here would be smart enough to
know what you mean.

>>
>> Was the political part of the personal? That is, he blamed the US
>> capitalist and political systems for his own failures? Of course he
>> expressed hatred of those systems before he went to the USSR.
>
> I think Lee came to blame both systems for his failures. He also came to
> b disillusioned by the USSR and the fact that they did not give him
> special treatment.
>

Well, they would not grant him citizenship.

> Pamela
> marinaenigma.blogspot.com
>

[Anthony Marsh]

Marsh Rule in efffect.

> Certainly the FBI had no evidence that they followed up on. This was SA
> Hosty's personal belief.
>

I saw no evidence of it.

> I think there might be a case to be made for Marina to have been used to
> inform someone, such as George deM, of Lee's whereabouts so that he could
> be successfully set up as the Dallas patsy. If so, that might have
> worked, as that is what Lee called himself -- a patsy.
>

Not sure she always knew and to inform anyone.
Was she expecting Lee to come out on Thursday?

> Pamela
> marinaenigma.blogspot.com
>

[Steve M. Galbraith]

His brother Robert said that if he had stayed in the Soviet Union and
wasn't allowed to return to the US that he would have ended up trying to
shoot Khrushchev.

I don't think he meant that literally; just that that was how Lee saw the
world.

Perhaps US intelligence manipulated or used him for intelligence purposes.
But I don't see how he was a willing "agent" or "asset" in any of those
actions. When he said - repeatedly - that he hated the US economic and
political systems I think he meant it. He wasn't going to willingly help a
system he despised.

[Anthony Marsh]

Silly.

> I don't think he meant that literally; just that that was how Lee saw the
> world.
>

He wanted to distance himself as much as possible from his brother.

> Perhaps US intelligence manipulated or used him for intelligence purposes.

Well, it can be done artfully so that no one knows.

> But I don't see how he was a willing "agent" or "asset" in any of those
> actions. When he said - repeatedly - that he hated the US economic and
> political systems I think he meant it. He wasn't going to willingly help a
> system he despised.
>

You mean by getting a JOB?

[Pamela Brown]

If that were the case, and LHO sensed he was being drawing into a net,
that could account for some of his growing antagonism to her. (No, I am
not making excuses for his awful treatment of Marina).

>
> > I think there might be a case to be made for Marina to have been used to
> > inform someone, such as George deM, of Lee's whereabouts so that he could
> > be successfully set up as the Dallas patsy. If so, that might have
> > worked, as that is what Lee called himself -- a patsy.
> >
>
> Not sure she always knew and to inform anyone.
> Was she expecting Lee to come out on Thursday?

If she was a sleeper agent tasked with making sure LHO was in a good
position to be a patsy for the assassination, she would have wanted him to
come out on Thursday. That way he had a direct connection to the M/C
which was in the Paynes' garage. Marina knew this because she and Ruth
brought it to Irving while LHO went to Mexico City.

Pamela
marinaenigma.blogspot.com

[Anthony Marsh]

I can't see the Russians planning to assassinate JFK for 10 years.

> Pamela
> marinaenigma.blogspot.com
>

[David Emerling]

The reason Oswald never "went through with" giving the Russian secrets is
twofold: 1) The Russians never gave him an audience to do so - because
they understood he was a lowly enlisted Marine who probably didn't know
anything the Russians didn't already know and 2) Oswald never pushed the
issue. He never insisted by saying, "Listen, I want to tell you some
secrets. Do you want to hear them or not?" The Russians weren't
interested. They were never 100% convinced that Oswald wasn't an American
plant to deceive them with false information.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[Steven M. Galbraith]

Nosenko said (I don't know if this was later verified) that the day Oswald
arrived in Moscow that there was some sort US/Soviet meeting/exchange with
US citizens visiting the USSR. The KGB assigned most of their people, he
said, to follow/monitor the people attending it. Oswald sort of "fell
through the cracks" and wasn't paid too much attention to.

As to viewing him as a plant: Yes, that's why they sent him to an isolated
part of the country - Minsk - so they could control him. The dozen or so
agents assigned to him were interviewed by Mailer (and his team) in
"Oswald's Tale" and they told Mailer et al. that after a period of time
where he was very closely watched that they concluded that he was no
threat and he became a nuisance.

Several of the agents said that when Oswald defected they were relieved;
they wanted nothing to do with him but were afraid he might cause some
incident that would draw attention to them. And they learned growing up
under the Stalinist system that the worst thing to do was draw attention
to yourself.

Mailer pointed out that people on the left viewed the CIA as some sort of
all-powerful agency and people on the right viewed the KGB similarly. In
reality they were both bureaucracies filled with ordinary people; some
were very smart and talented but some were just average people with a
9-to-5 job.

[John Deagle]

Not true Mr. Emerling. The Russians did give Oswald an audience, but his
secrets were not secret.

According to VLADIMIR SEMICHASTNY: [through interpreter] There were
conversations, but this was such outdated information, the kind we say the
sparrows have already chirped to the entire world, and now Oswald tells us
about it. Not the kind of information that would interest such a
high-level organization like ours.

FRONTLINE'S WHO WAS LEE HARVEY OSWALD.

[Pamela Brown]

Well, when was it that Kruschev declared that 'we will bury you?' 1960?
Was that something new? I don't think so.

I think overturning the US govt has been an objective of the USSR since
its inception. Marina was programmed to be used. It just happened to be
the assassination of JFK.

BTW, what do you think of the book Operation Mind Control by Walter
Bowart?

Pamela

[Mark]

What evidence do you have for such a fantastic statement?

Norman Mailer, who researched the Oswalds in the Soviet Union deeper than
anyone, found no such evidence.

And please no cites or quotes from conspiracy theory books. Mark

[Anthony Marsh]

>>>>>>>>>> "[T]he anger and violence that were to characterize Oswald???s

So you think Khrushchev knew in 1953 that JFK would be President in 1963?

> I think overturning the US govt has been an objective of the USSR since

Not sure about that. I seem to remember that we used to be allies. Ever
hear of WWII?

> its inception. Marina was programmed to be used. It just happened to be

Could be, but I doubt it.

> the assassination of JFK.
>
> BTW, what do you think of the book Operation Mind Control by Walter
> Bowart?
>

I don't remember if I have that. BTW, my father was the victim of one of
those tests and resigned in protest.

> Pamela


I am pretty sure you will never see his name mentioned in any of the
files. Helms had them destroyed.

>

[Anthony Marsh]

>>>>>>>>>>> "[T]he anger and violence that were to characterize Oswald???s

Then don't you cite or quote CIA cover-up books!

[Pamela Brown]

Well, let's see. First, my talk with Agent Hosty. Then, my research on
Marina, who was deceptive to both the WC and Jim Garrison. Then there is
the behavior of LHO, who wanted to send her back to the USSR and acted as
though he felt trapped -- or that he had walked into a trap. And then
there was his statement after his arrest that he was just a 'patsy'.

>
> Norman Mailer, who researched the Oswalds in the Soviet Union deeper than
> anyone, found no such evidence.

What evidence do you have for such a fantastic claim? Mailer was a
novelist and WC appeaser.

>
> And please no cites or quotes from conspiracy theory books. Mark

And no quotes from any of the lone-nutters either.

Pamela

[Steven M. Galbraith]

In his book on Oswald ("Oswald's Tale"), Mailer directly quotes a number
of KGB agents (he said he interviewed about 18-20) who were assigned to
monitor Oswald as well as the actual KGB reports on the surveillance. And
we have Nosenko's account.

All of it indicates that the Soviets originally suspected Oswald was an
American agent but after watching him closely for over a year concluded he
didn't have the aptitude for it.

This is not Mailer saying it; this is the agents themselves and KGB
documents.

[InsideSparta]

So, in other words, you don't actually have any evidence that Marina
Oswald was "programmed" to be used for nefarious purposes by the Soviet
Union. It's purely a hunch and opinion on your part. You actually believe
that the Soviets would program young, promiscuous, Marina Prusakova, who
couldn't speak a lick of english, to marry an American defector that would
just so happen to later decide to return to the United States, and they
would then figure out a way to use her? So, the Soviets were responsible
for her being in the situation of living in abject poverty with an abusive
husband that couldn't keep himself employed and couldn't even provide
access to proper dental care, to the point where her teeth were having to
be removed? Was she programmed to allow herself to become pregnant and
give birth to two children while having to live off the the handouts of
sympathetic Americans? Your theory of Marina being "programmed" is pure
science fiction hogwash which cannot stand up to logical scrutiny when
compared to the facts of her pre-assassination life in the United States.

[Anthony Marsh]

>>>>>>>>>>>> "[T]he anger and violence that were to characterize Oswald???s

Hosty's supicions are not facts and he was not an expert on Soviet spying.

> Marina, who was deceptive to both the WC and Jim Garrison. Then there is

About what?

> the behavior of LHO, who wanted to send her back to the USSR and acted as
> though he felt trapped -- or that he had walked into a trap. And then
> there was his statement after his arrest that he was just a 'patsy'.
>

I don't see any indication of that.
Oswald felt that others had set him up.

>>
>> Norman Mailer, who researched the Oswalds in the Soviet Union deeper than
>> anyone, found no such evidence.
>
> What evidence do you have for such a fantastic claim? Mailer was a
> novelist and WC appeaser.
>

Also a CIA asset.

[Mark]

Hosty's opinion is just that and not proof of anthing. Same is true of
your opinion of LHO's behavior and his "patsy" comment. Marina certainly
was deceptive at times, but that doesn't prove she was "programmed." I
think a person would have to research the elements you cite to see if a
case can be made. Right now they are simply a collection of opinions and
thoughts, yet you cite them as evidence to run Marina through the
conspiracy mud.

BTW, your belief that the USSR would have murdered (using a "programmed"
Marina to set it up) a POTUS, is something a right-wing anti-communist
cold warrior would have believed.

> > Norman Mailer, who researched the Oswalds in the Soviet Union deeper than
> > anyone, found no such evidence.
>
> What evidence do you have for such a fantastic claim? Mailer was a
> novelist and WC appeaser.

That's weak. Mailer was a WRITER, and he was one of numerous novelists who
wrote and published non-fiction during their careers. Have you read his
Oswald book? (And I'm so sorry you disagree with the WC, that's a real
shame.)

I also agree with what InsideSparta and Steven Galbraith wrote in response
to your reply to me. Mark

[Mark]

Imagine that: Another person who disagrees with Tony Marsh is a "CIA
asset."

What is your cite for that statement? Mark

[Pamela Brown]

So is your opinion just that. You are entitled. So am I.

>
> BTW, your belief that the USSR would have murdered (using a "programmed"
> Marina to set it up) a POTUS, is something a right-wing anti-communist
> cold warrior would have believed.

With all due respect, I may have a different perspective from yours
because of my personal experience.

Do you by any chance happen to know anything about Wehrner von Braun?

>
> > > Norman Mailer, who researched the Oswalds in the Soviet Union deeper than
> > > anyone, found no such evidence.
> >
> > What evidence do you have for such a fantastic claim? Mailer was a
> > novelist and WC appeaser.
>
> That's weak. Mailer was a WRITER, and he was one of numerous novelists who
> wrote and published non-fiction during their careers. Have you read his
> Oswald book? (And I'm so sorry you disagree with the WC, that's a real
> shame.)

I have a copy somewhere. It's a novel.

>
> I also agree with what InsideSparta and Steven Galbraith wrote in response
> to your reply to me. Mark

Pamela Brown
marinaenigma.blogspot.com

[Pamela Brown]

On Sunday, November 10, 2019 at 12:46:41 PM UTC-6, Anthony Marsh wrote:

About what she knew. Garrison wanted to treat Marina as a hostile
witness.

>
> > the behavior of LHO, who wanted to send her back to the USSR and acted as
> > though he felt trapped -- or that he had walked into a trap. And then
> > there was his statement after his arrest that he was just a 'patsy'.
> >
>
> I don't see any indication of that.
> Oswald felt that others had set him up.

And that she was one of them. That's why he didn't tell her things.

[Anthony Marsh]

The fact that the CIA told him which people to contact in the Soviet
Union.

[Anthony Marsh]

He told her that he shot at Walker. Do you think SHE told him to shoot
at Walker?

I seriously doubt that Marina fired any whotw ever.

[Anthony Marsh]

Only what I've seen on TV and read in books. No TS files.

[Mark]

Where in the book does he say that? If he or someone else said that
outside of the book, where can I find that?

Or are you making CIA stuff up again, like with your statement that Helms
told Russo to spread the idea that the brain was put in casket during the
reinterment? Mark

[Mark]

And I would never argue you're not entitled to your opinion. But that's
beside the point.

You and I have been over this ground before.

I tried to get you to explain your belief that Jean Hill was a solid
witness, that you apparently believe she did not change --inflate -- her
story as the years went by.

You never did stand up and reply.

I am again just asking you to explain your belief that Marina was
programmed to murder JFK.

It's called debate. That's kind of what we do on here. Mark

[Steven M. Galbraith]

You have presented no evidence whatsoever for this claim. You make these
statements all of the time about people being "CIA assets" and then when
asked - respectfully - for evidence for them you wave your hands and try
to distract the question. Johnson, Russo, Holland, posters here......all,
according to you, "CIA assets". Of course, a "CIA asset" to you is anyone
who talks to the CIA and doesn't believe in a conspiracy.

Even if, for the sake of the argument, it was true, how does that make him
a CIA asset? Did he only interview the people the CIA "told him" to
interview?

Do you know?

[Anthony Marsh]

Maybe I know things from my CIA contacts that you can't know.

[Anthony Marsh]

Not including YOU. YOU are afraid to debate.

[Anthony Marsh]

You don't just wander into Russia and stumble upon sources. Someone has
to tell you where to go and to whom you should speak.

> asked - respectfully - for evidence for them you wave your hands and try
> to distract the question. Johnson, Russo, Holland, posters here......all,
> according to you, "CIA assets". Of course, a "CIA asset" to you is anyone
> who talks to the CIA and doesn't believe in a conspiracy.
>

You smear with a broader brush. Cite where I clled those others CIA
assets. Or are YOU naming them because you KNOW they were CIA assets. I
know some people are CIA assets because I actually read the declassified
files. YOU do not. You only smear.

> Even if, for the sake of the argument, it was true, how does that make him
> a CIA asset? Did he only interview the people the CIA "told him" to

Being told by the CIA whicch people to interview.
Do you know ANYTHING about the CIA? No.

Would you even admit that CLay Shaw was a CIA aset even when we had the
documents? No.

For the record, I never said that there is anything wrong with being a
CIA asset. So why are you so worked up about this?

> interview?
>
> Do you know?
>

[Steven M. Galbraith]

By your definition then that would make you a "CIA asset".

[Mark]

I see. Translation: You can't provide a cite because you made it up.
Again. Mark

[Steven M. Galbraith]

Again: give us the evidence that the CIA directed Mailer on who to
interview.

You said it again: he was "told" by the CIA who to talk to. Did you read
his book? Did you see how he got his sources? Of course not.

This is typical hand waving from you. You are asked "A" and you talk about
anything but "A".

[Steven M. Galbraith]

Yep, more hand waving and "Look over there!" from him.

We ask him "A" and he talks about everything except "A".

Mailer explained in his book and in interviews how he got his sources. And
he didn't conduct most of the interviews since he didn't speak Russian and
some of his sources didn't speak English (he said he taught himself some
crude Russian to get by). He had researchers and others conduct the
interviews.

It's a deeply flawed book; the first part is about Oswald in the Soviet
Union and is crudely put together from interviews, transcripts and other
material. The second part is almost pure Priscilla McMillan. He reportedly
paid her a rather large sum (if I recall over $50,000) to use her work in
his book.

[Mark]

You don't know where Mailer got his information from. But for the sake of
argument, let's say he did ask the CIA about who to contact in Russia.

That doesn't make him a CIA asset.

Damn. Get over your anal, paranoid self. Mark

[Anthony Marsh]

No. As I explained to McAdams, just association by family does not make
someone a CIA asset. The person has to make an agrrement to work for the
CIA.

[Pamela Brown]

Thank you. My hypothesis is based on my personal experiences with things
that I believe have a tangential connection to the assassination. It is
part of research I have not yet presented but will in the near future.

>
> You and I have been over this ground before.

I doubt it.

>
> I tried to get you to explain your belief that Jean Hill was a solid
> witness, that you apparently believe she did not change --inflate -- her
> story as the years went by.
>
> You never did stand up and reply.

Excuse me? I don't recall that discussion. I met Jean Hill and asked her
about the limo. I was impressed with her response. I think she has done
her best. Again, my opinion. But then, I have met her -- have you?

>
> I am again just asking you to explain your belief that Marina was
> programmed to murder JFK.
>

It's called research, and I am in the middle of it. I gave you a clue
though -- I asked if you know anything about Wernher von Braun.

Pamela Brown
in-broad-daylight.com

[Pamela Brown]

I don't like to see anybody making an assumption that LHO was a part of a
false defector program either. It's fine to present info for either side.
I personally think LHO was tracked by CIA but not recruited by them.

Pamela

[Steven M. Galbraith]

You've backtracked from claiming that the CIA told Mailer who to interview
and that made him a "CIA asset" to now claiming that there has to be an
agreement between the two parties.

What is your evidence now that: (1) the CIA told Mailer who to interview;
and (2) He had an "agreement" with them?

And where is your evidence that Russo and McMillan and Holland had
"agreements" with the CIA? You've stated that they were/are "CIA assets".

You've also claimed all sorts of journalists were "CIA assets" simply
because they got information from or had sources in the CIA. Now you're
saying there has to be some sort of "agreement" as well.

[Mark]

Okay.

> >
> > You and I have been over this ground before.
>
> I doubt it.
> >
> > I tried to get you to explain your belief that Jean Hill was a solid
> > witness, that you apparently believe she did not change --inflate -- her
> > story as the years went by.
> >
> > You never did stand up and reply.
>
> Excuse me? I don't recall that discussion. I met Jean Hill and asked her
> about the limo. I was impressed with her response. I think she has done
> her best. Again, my opinion. But then, I have met her -- have you?

It was pretty much a one-sided "discussion." Part of it is here:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.assassination.jfk/RzQJOBPdKLc%5B1-25%5D

And no, Tony, I mean Pamela, I did not meet Hill. I didn't have to in
order to learn she changed her 11/22 story a number times. These were
self-inflicted wounds. IMO, she did it to renew her 15 minutes of fame
with the CT community:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/jhill.htm

>
> >
> > I am again just asking you to explain your belief that Marina was
> > programmed to murder JFK.
> >
>
> It's called research, and I am in the middle of it. I gave you a clue
> though -- I asked if you know anything about Wernher von Braun.
>
> Pamela Brown
> in-broad-daylight.com

I am familiar with von Braun. I recall you mentioning him, but I don't
remember what the context was. Mark

[Anthony Marsh]

No. Each case is different.

> What is your evidence now that: (1) the CIA told Mailer who to interview;
> and (2) He had an "agreement" with them?
>

The fact that he knew where to go and whom to interview.

> And where is your evidence that Russo and McMillan and Holland had
> "agreements" with the CIA? You've stated that they were/are "CIA assets".
>

I didn't say agreements in all cases. Russo was used by Helms.

> You've also claimed all sorts of journalists were "CIA assets" simply
> because they got information from or had sources in the CIA. Now you're
> saying there has to be some sort of "agreement" as well.
>

Most of those are historical facts released by the Church committee.
There is nothing inherently evil in working for the CIA.

>
>

[Anthony Marsh]

Not everyone is a CIA asset, but many people have been. Just admit facts.

>> You don't just wander into Russia and stumble upon sources. Someone has
>> to tell you where to go and to whom you should speak.
>
> You don't know where Mailer got his information from. But for the sake of
> argument, let's say he did ask the CIA about who to contact in Russia.
>
> That doesn't make him a CIA asset.
>

Yes, it does.

[Anthony Marsh]

Well, it could be that the CIA knew about his defection and wanted to
see how the KGB would evaluate him.

> Pamela
>

[Anthony Marsh]

Only what has been publicly released.

> Pamela Brown
> in-broad-daylight.com
>
>

[Mark]

I want to return to this answer of yours. You say it's research you are
"in the middle of."

To me, that means your allegation that Marina was programmed to kill JFK
is based on incomplete research, research you are "in the middle of."

Do you think you "jumped the gun" with your allegation? Mark

[Mark]

Not for the first time he has painted himself into a corner, and is using
mental gymnastics to try to get himself out of it. Mark

[Steven M. Galbraith]

Once again, and not surprisingly, you're revising your statement.

You said this: "As I explained to McAdams, just association by family

does not make someone a CIA asset. The person has to make an agrrement to
work for the CIA."

That's an exact quote. "The person has to make an agrrement (sic) to work
for the CIA" to make them an asset.

Now you're saying: "I didn't say agreements in all cases. Russo was used
by Helms."

You said earlier that Russo was a "CIA asset." So was/is, you said,
Holland. So was/is, you said, McMillan.

You've presented no evidence here for these claims. None at all.

When you figure out what you mean to say and when you have evidence for
what you say get back to us. Until then your allegations are without any
basis.

[Mark]

I guess Pamela has retreated to her leftist "Safe Space" where free speech
ad debate are not among the priorities.

And where God knows what would happen to me, a conservative white male, if
I should try to intrude. Mark

[Pamela Brown]

A possible motive for the assassination.

>
> I guess Pamela has retreated to her leftist "Safe Space" where free speech
> ad debate are not among the priorities.

Just what is that supposed to mean?

>
> And where God knows what would happen to me, a conservative white male, if
> I should try to intrude. Mark

???

Pamela

[Pamela Brown]

I knew a family who came to the US with him.

>
> > Pamela Brown
> > in-broad-daylight.com
> >
> >

[Pamela Brown]

I agree. He was tracked by intelligence on both sides, I think.

Pamela