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The Zapruder Film Probably WAS Available To The Public In 1964
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David Von Pein
Jun 12, 2017, 4:48:04 PM6/12/17
to
I had a very interesting comment posted by someone at YouTube on June 12,
2017, concerning my "1964 Secret Service Film" video. And it's something I
had never once thought about prior to today. So I thought I would share
the conversation here....
C.B. McCARTY SAID:
I'm a bit confused about the Z film in this video from 1964. Was it just
for the Warren Commission and the government? I thought the Z film was not
seen by the public until years later...correct?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
CB,
You bring up a very good point about the Zapruder Film that I had never
thought about before today. This Secret Service film must, indeed, have
only been available to certain "Government" people for many years.
Although, as I understand it, "Government" films are in the public domain
from Day 1 and can be obtained and used by any ordinary American citizen.
I got my copy of this SS film by just scouring the Internet and
downloading it. But I have no idea when the public first had access to
this film.
But since it's a "Secret Service" film, it is also a "Government"
production and should have been readily available and in the public domain
for anyone to see back in '64 (I would assume). Good question, though, CB.
It now makes me wonder why many more regular citizens hadn't seen (and
reacted to) the Z-Film being shown (in full motion) in this film well
prior to the ABC-TV showing of the film in 1975.
My guess would be that since this Secret Service film wasn't shown on TV
or any other place where the public would have easy access to it, it
simply was never seen by the average American until the "Internet" came
into existence. But now almost everything (including Government films like
this one) are readily available with the click of a mouse. If this film
had been produced in the Internet era, then everyone would have been able
to see Mr. Zapruder's film (in motion) immediately, instead of having to
wait 12 years for a bootleg copy to be shown on Geraldo Rivera's TV show.
Thanks for your good comments, CB.
DAVID VON PEIN LATER SAID:
A follow-up to my comments above....
Since we can see that the Zapruder Film is being displayed in full motion
(and in real time) in this 1964 Secret Service film, such an occurrence
(within a U.S. Government filmed production) would certainly tend to
debunk the notion that many conspiracy theorists continue to endorse to
this day—i.e., the notion that Abraham Zapruder's motion picture
film of JFK's assassination was being deliberately suppressed or hidden
from the general public until 1975 (or at least until 1969, when the
Zapruder Film was shown in open court at the Clay Shaw trial in New
Orleans).
Although I am not positive, I would assume that this Secret Service
reconstruction film *was* available to the public shortly after it was
completed sometime in late 1964. It possibly was made available at certain
libraries, schools, and universities around the country. And if that was
the case, then the conspiracists who think the U.S. Government was
attempting to hide the film from public view for many years are just
simply dead wrong. Because this Secret Service film, although probably not
seen by very many people prior to the age of the Internet, would have
still been *out there* and available to view by anyone who had an interest
in doing so many years prior to 1975 (or 1969).
Further comments, concerns, observations...?
2017, concerning my "1964 Secret Service Film" video. And it's something I
had never once thought about prior to today. So I thought I would share
the conversation here....
C.B. McCARTY SAID:
I'm a bit confused about the Z film in this video from 1964. Was it just
for the Warren Commission and the government? I thought the Z film was not
seen by the public until years later...correct?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
CB,
You bring up a very good point about the Zapruder Film that I had never
thought about before today. This Secret Service film must, indeed, have
only been available to certain "Government" people for many years.
Although, as I understand it, "Government" films are in the public domain
from Day 1 and can be obtained and used by any ordinary American citizen.
I got my copy of this SS film by just scouring the Internet and
downloading it. But I have no idea when the public first had access to
this film.
But since it's a "Secret Service" film, it is also a "Government"
production and should have been readily available and in the public domain
for anyone to see back in '64 (I would assume). Good question, though, CB.
It now makes me wonder why many more regular citizens hadn't seen (and
reacted to) the Z-Film being shown (in full motion) in this film well
prior to the ABC-TV showing of the film in 1975.
My guess would be that since this Secret Service film wasn't shown on TV
or any other place where the public would have easy access to it, it
simply was never seen by the average American until the "Internet" came
into existence. But now almost everything (including Government films like
this one) are readily available with the click of a mouse. If this film
had been produced in the Internet era, then everyone would have been able
to see Mr. Zapruder's film (in motion) immediately, instead of having to
wait 12 years for a bootleg copy to be shown on Geraldo Rivera's TV show.
Thanks for your good comments, CB.
DAVID VON PEIN LATER SAID:
A follow-up to my comments above....
Since we can see that the Zapruder Film is being displayed in full motion
(and in real time) in this 1964 Secret Service film, such an occurrence
(within a U.S. Government filmed production) would certainly tend to
debunk the notion that many conspiracy theorists continue to endorse to
this day—i.e., the notion that Abraham Zapruder's motion picture
film of JFK's assassination was being deliberately suppressed or hidden
from the general public until 1975 (or at least until 1969, when the
Zapruder Film was shown in open court at the Clay Shaw trial in New
Orleans).
Although I am not positive, I would assume that this Secret Service
reconstruction film *was* available to the public shortly after it was
completed sometime in late 1964. It possibly was made available at certain
libraries, schools, and universities around the country. And if that was
the case, then the conspiracists who think the U.S. Government was
attempting to hide the film from public view for many years are just
simply dead wrong. Because this Secret Service film, although probably not
seen by very many people prior to the age of the Internet, would have
still been *out there* and available to view by anyone who had an interest
in doing so many years prior to 1975 (or 1969).
Further comments, concerns, observations...?
David Von Pein
Jun 13, 2017, 9:54:12 AM6/13/17
to
mainframetech
Jun 13, 2017, 9:58:19 AM6/13/17
to
on. Here's some of the story:
http://time.com/3491195/jfks-assassination-how-life-brought-the-zapruder-film-to-light/
But there is contention between WCR supporters and CTs that the film
was altered to give wrong impressions that the kill shot was from above
and behind (implicating Oswald in the TSBD), when it really was from the
front and struck the forehead of JFK suggesting a conspiracy with multiple
shooters.
The Z-film was said to have been taken early on to a secret CIA film
lab in Rochester, NY called the 'Hawkeye Works'. There were witnesses
from the CIA that were involved and one of the ARRB specialists named
Douglas Horne wrote up the doings of the ARRB and in his 4th volume of 5,
spent hundreds of pages telling the story with witnesses that knew the
Z-film (as it came to be known) had been waylaid to Rochester to be
altered to seem more like a shot from above and behind.
The Horne story included all the equipment used in 1963 to perform the
alteration. And an interesting event was that though Life Magazine had
gotten rights to the film early on, they NEVER showed it as a movie ever
to the public. They simply used frames to show in their magazine, but
never the full film.
Horne interviews one of the CIA Film Analysts online who aid he had
seen the ORIGINAL film and was shocked at the changes in it:
https://vimeo.com/102327635
There are also independent analyses that were done as to the validity
of the Z-film:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAtEdEaXBtQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCigDMyHisE
Chris
Anthony Marsh
Jun 13, 2017, 10:01:43 AM6/13/17
to
On 6/12/2017 4:48 PM, David Von Pein wrote:
> I had a very interesting comment posted by someone at YouTube on June 12,
> 2017, concerning my "1964 Secret Service Film" video. And it's something I
> had never once thought about prior to today. So I thought I would share
> the conversation here....
>
> C.B. McCARTY SAID:
>
> I'm a bit confused about the Z film in this video from 1964. Was it just
> for the Warren Commission and the government? I thought the Z film was not
> seen by the public until years later...correct????
> I had a very interesting comment posted by someone at YouTube on June 12,
> 2017, concerning my "1964 Secret Service Film" video. And it's something I
> had never once thought about prior to today. So I thought I would share
> the conversation here....
>
> C.B. McCARTY SAID:
>
> I'm a bit confused about the Z film in this video from 1964. Was it just
> for the Warren Commission and the government? I thought the Z film was not
>
>
> DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
>
> CB,
>
> You bring up a very good point about the Zapruder Film that I had never
> thought about before today. This Secret Service film must, indeed, have
> only been available to certain "Government" people for many years.
> Although, as I understand it, "Government" films are in the public domain
> from Day 1 and can be obtained and used by any ordinary American citizen.
> I got my copy of this SS film by just scouring the Internet and
> downloading it. But I have no idea when the public first had access to
> this film.
>
> But since it's a "Secret Service" film, it is also a "Government"
> production and should have been readily available and in the public domain
> for anyone to see back in '64 (I would assume). Good question, though, CB.
> It now makes me wonder why many more regular citizens hadn't seen (and
> reacted to) the Z-Film being shown (in full motion) in this film well
> prior to the ABC-TV showing of the film in 1975.
>
> My guess would be that since this Secret Service film wasn't shown on TV
> or any other place where the public would have easy access to it, it
> simply was never seen by the average American until the "Internet" came
> into existence. But now almost everything (including Government films like
> this one) are readily available with the click of a mouse. If this film
Doesn't mean they are public domain. Anyone with a mouse can see most of
>
> DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
>
> CB,
>
> You bring up a very good point about the Zapruder Film that I had never
> thought about before today. This Secret Service film must, indeed, have
> only been available to certain "Government" people for many years.
> Although, as I understand it, "Government" films are in the public domain
> from Day 1 and can be obtained and used by any ordinary American citizen.
> I got my copy of this SS film by just scouring the Internet and
> downloading it. But I have no idea when the public first had access to
> this film.
>
> But since it's a "Secret Service" film, it is also a "Government"
> production and should have been readily available and in the public domain
> for anyone to see back in '64 (I would assume). Good question, though, CB.
> It now makes me wonder why many more regular citizens hadn't seen (and
> reacted to) the Z-Film being shown (in full motion) in this film well
> prior to the ABC-TV showing of the film in 1975.
>
> My guess would be that since this Secret Service film wasn't shown on TV
> or any other place where the public would have easy access to it, it
> simply was never seen by the average American until the "Internet" came
> into existence. But now almost everything (including Government films like
> this one) are readily available with the click of a mouse. If this film
the autopsy photos, but they have never been officially released to the
public. Do you know what a leak is?
> had been produced in the Internet era, then everyone would have been able
> to see Mr. Zapruder's film (in motion) immediately, instead of having to
> wait 12 years for a bootleg copy to be shown on Geraldo Rivera's TV show.
the film?
+
>
> Thanks for your good comments, CB.
>
>
> DAVID VON PEIN LATER SAID:
>
> A follow-up to my comments above....
>
> Since we can see that the Zapruder Film is being displayed in full motion
> (and in real time) in this 1964 Secret Service film, such an occurrence
> (within a U.S. Government filmed production) would certainly tend to
> debunk the notion that many conspiracy theorists continue to endorse to
> this day???i.e., the notion that Abraham Zapruder's motion picture
> Thanks for your good comments, CB.
>
>
> DAVID VON PEIN LATER SAID:
>
> A follow-up to my comments above....
>
> Since we can see that the Zapruder Film is being displayed in full motion
> (and in real time) in this 1964 Secret Service film, such an occurrence
> (within a U.S. Government filmed production) would certainly tend to
> debunk the notion that many conspiracy theorists continue to endorse to
> film of JFK's assassination was being deliberately suppressed or hidden
> from the general public until 1975 (or at least until 1969, when the
> Zapruder Film was shown in open court at the Clay Shaw trial in New
> Orleans).
Is this a joke? You want to try to seriously clam that the Zapruder film
> from the general public until 1975 (or at least until 1969, when the
> Zapruder Film was shown in open court at the Clay Shaw trial in New
> Orleans).
wasn't suppressed by the government?
This is the most incompetent cover-up I've ever seen.
Did Nixon play the tapes live on TV just after the Watergate break-in?
>
> Although I am not positive, I would assume that this Secret Service
> reconstruction film *was* available to the public shortly after it was
> completed sometime in late 1964. It possibly was made available at certain
> libraries, schools, and universities around the country. And if that was
> the case, then the conspiracists who think the U.S. Government was
> attempting to hide the film from public view for many years are just
> simply dead wrong. Because this Secret Service film, although probably not
> seen by very many people prior to the age of the Internet, would have
> still been *out there* and available to view by anyone who had an interest
> in doing so many years prior to 1975 (or 1969).
>
> Further comments, concerns, observations...?
>
cgsc...@googlemail.com
Jun 13, 2017, 2:47:16 PM6/13/17
to
film was not being altered/tampered with for years after the
assassination, as so many seem to think.
otu...@gmail.com
Jun 13, 2017, 2:49:05 PM6/13/17
to
I believe the SS reenactment film was produced primarily for the benefit
of Intel moles to report to Moscow & Havana that the SS was standing
firmly beside the WC in feeding the public the BS that LHO had pulled this
crime off solo. It wasn't done for the educational system because talking
about Mark Lane's best seller in book reports would get a student a
lecture on promoting communist propaganda.
Like it's older brother (the WC), the film diverts attention away from
train activity before, during & after the ambush of JFK as well as police
responders being ordered into the railyards following the shootings on Elm
Street. It also gives the impression JFK's limo had no car full of
bodyguards tailgating it during the attack.
Today, pushing the 'Oswald did it' baloney sends folks over to the 'CIA
did it' camp. Such preachers are suspected of being pail Agency shills,
when in fact they are pocketing rubles.
Putin likes the 'CIA did it' angle. Look at his 2 year interview love
affair with Oliver Stone & Alex Jones climbing aboard the same soundstage.
Sorry Alex, you need a lot of work to get to Megyn Kelly's level to
interest Putin (lol).
In short, the more people believe the CIA did it, the more Russia smells
like a rose.
I just wonder where Von Pein gets his rubles exchanged for dollars?
Otus
of Intel moles to report to Moscow & Havana that the SS was standing
firmly beside the WC in feeding the public the BS that LHO had pulled this
crime off solo. It wasn't done for the educational system because talking
about Mark Lane's best seller in book reports would get a student a
lecture on promoting communist propaganda.
Like it's older brother (the WC), the film diverts attention away from
train activity before, during & after the ambush of JFK as well as police
responders being ordered into the railyards following the shootings on Elm
Street. It also gives the impression JFK's limo had no car full of
bodyguards tailgating it during the attack.
Today, pushing the 'Oswald did it' baloney sends folks over to the 'CIA
did it' camp. Such preachers are suspected of being pail Agency shills,
when in fact they are pocketing rubles.
Putin likes the 'CIA did it' angle. Look at his 2 year interview love
affair with Oliver Stone & Alex Jones climbing aboard the same soundstage.
Sorry Alex, you need a lot of work to get to Megyn Kelly's level to
interest Putin (lol).
In short, the more people believe the CIA did it, the more Russia smells
like a rose.
I just wonder where Von Pein gets his rubles exchanged for dollars?
Otus
David Von Pein
Jun 13, 2017, 8:09:56 PM6/13/17
to
from Day 1 of its existence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_status_of_work_by_the_U.S._government
And, of course, the "U.S. Secret Service" IS a "Government" entity.
So, Tony's wrong. Again.
> Anyone with a mouse can see most of
> the autopsy photos, but they have never been officially released to the
> public. Do you know what a leak is?
>
> > had been produced in the Internet era, then everyone would have been able
> > to see Mr. Zapruder's film (in motion) immediately, instead of having to
> > wait 12 years for a bootleg copy to be shown on Geraldo Rivera's TV show.
>
> Some of us did not have to wait 12 years. Where do you think Geraldo got
> the film?
> +
> >
> > Thanks for your good comments, CB.
> >
> >
> > DAVID VON PEIN LATER SAID:
> >
> > A follow-up to my comments above....
> >
> > Since we can see that the Zapruder Film is being displayed in full motion
> > (and in real time) in this 1964 Secret Service film, such an occurrence
> > (within a U.S. Government filmed production) would certainly tend to
> > debunk the notion that many conspiracy theorists continue to endorse to
> > this day???i.e., the notion that Abraham Zapruder's motion picture
> > film of JFK's assassination was being deliberately suppressed or hidden
> > from the general public until 1975 (or at least until 1969, when the
> > Zapruder Film was shown in open court at the Clay Shaw trial in New
> > Orleans).
>
> Is this a joke? You want to try to seriously clam that the Zapruder film
> wasn't suppressed by the government?
>
bunch of still frames from the film in its own volumes. (Some suppression
there, huh?)
> This is the most incompetent cover-up I've ever seen.
> Did Nixon play the tapes live on TV just after the Watergate break-in?
>
> >
> > Although I am not positive, I would assume that this Secret Service
> > reconstruction film *was* available to the public shortly after it was
> > completed sometime in late 1964. It possibly was made available at certain
>
> Sure, sure, like you could ever prove anything. What a joke.
>
> > libraries, schools, and universities around the country. And if that was
> > the case, then the conspiracists who think the U.S. Government was
> > attempting to hide the film from public view for many years are just
> > simply dead wrong. Because this Secret Service film, although probably not
> > seen by very many people prior to the age of the Internet, would have
> > still been *out there* and available to view by anyone who had an interest
> > in doing so many years prior to 1975 (or 1969).
> >
>
> Ridiculous.
>
Thanks for yet another batch of worthless/useless comments, Tony. You're a
peach.
> > Further comments, concerns, observations...?
> >
David Von Pein
Jun 13, 2017, 8:11:04 PM6/13/17
to
On Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 10:01:43 AM UTC-4, Anthony Marsh wrote:
> wasn't suppressed by the government?
>
I guess Tony Marsh thinks that when the Warren Commission published more
>
than 150 B&W still images from the Z-Film (in CE885), this means the
Government "suppressed" the Zapruder Film from the American public. (Yeah,
right.)
Commission Exhibit No. 885:
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh18/html/WH_Vol18_0008a.htm
David Von Pein
Jun 13, 2017, 8:13:58 PM6/13/17
to
FOLLOW-UP COMMENTS.....
MY E-MAIL REPLIES TO A PERSON WHO PREFERS TO REMAIN ANONYMOUS.....
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Hi [xxx],
Thanks for your comments and observations. I think your knowledge of this
"Zapruder Film" subject is likely far greater than my meager knowledge.
But this topic of "Was The Z-Film Available For Public Viewing Back In
1964?" is, indeed, an interesting one, especially since many conspiracy
believers seem to think the Z-Film was being hidden away from the public
for many years just after the assassination.
I just now looked at the date that is attached to my raw file for my
digital copy of the 1964 Secret Service film, and it shows that I
downloaded that video file to my computer on June 27, 2011. So it's been
on my system for 6 years now, and yet (prior to yesterday) I never once
slapped myself on my forehead and said, "Gee, the Zapruder Film is
actually being shown in real time within this Secret Service film! And
this SS film was produced way back in '64! That seems strange!"
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9E6ed_4-hx6clV0SHhkN1dESHM/view
As for the history of the Secret Service film and its potential audience,
I haven't the foggiest idea. I was just guessing in my previous post
regarding this matter when I speculated that the SS film probably was
available to the general public right after it was made by the Secret
Service. And I labelled the film with a "1964" date on my websites (and at
YouTube) mainly due to the "post-Warren Commission" information that is
being revealed in the film by narrator Jim Underwood of KRLD. But I now
see, after probing into this matter a little bit more today, that my
"1964" caption for the SS film is, indeed, entirely accurate. I confirmed
that fact by way of information posted on the "Zapruder Film Timeline"
page at the Sixth Floor Museum's website....
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-WNy4Vez24sQ/WT_CVf8ncAI/AAAAAAABL_8/emUQDfXjJm4mMrUzWeAOJXizKxs1EFaBACLcB/s1600/History-Of-1964-SS-Film.png
See the entire Z-Film Timeline at the link below:
http://www.jfk.org/the-collections/abraham-zapruder-film/abraham-zapruder-film-timeline/
The above-linked information doesn't say exactly WHO had access to the '64
SS film, but further down in that "Z-Film Timeline" it does state that
when the Zapruder Film was shown in a New Orleans courtroom at the Clay
Shaw trial on February 13, 1969, it marked the "film's first public
showing".
An intriguing word is used, IMO, in the Sixth Floor's Z-Film Timeline
concerning the description of the '64 SS film when it is referred to as an
"educational" film. That is, btw, exactly the same
word—"Educational"—that has been floating around in my
head for the last two days as well, which prompted me to write this in my
post yesterday --- "It possibly was made available at certain libraries,
WHO was it intending to educate? Just people inside the U.S. Government?
Or the American people in general? My guess would be the latter. ~shrug~
BTW, the date of "March 1964" shown on that "Timeline" page at the Sixth
Floor website has to be incorrect. There's no way the film was made that
early in the Warren Commission's investigation, because the SS film
contains details and images from the Commission's May 24, 1964,
re-enactment in Dealey Plaza. So it must have been produced after at least
May of '64, and probably was made after the Warren Commission closed up
shop completely in September of '64.
EDIT --- Just a few minutes after I wrote the paragraph above, I dug up an
older version of the Sixth Floor's Z-Film Timeline (which I saved about a
year ago via Archive.org's handy "Wayback Machine"), and this older
version confirms what I said above---that the SS film was not produced
until AFTER the Warren Report was released in late 1964 (click the second
link below to see the older "Timeline" with the different—and more
accurate—description of the Secret Service film)....
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-m9xg6lTd-5M/WT_LOCKrmHI/AAAAAAABMAM/01pGa1QR9-0XBJonVDwMpFlXCfMkrgiywCLcB/s1600/Z-Film-Timeline-02.png
http://web.archive.org/web/20150702014536/http://www.jfk.org/go/collections/about/zapruder-film-chronology
DAVID VON PEIN LATER SAID:
Well, this question that I asked just a little while ago....
"So, if the Secret Service film was produced as an "Educational film",
then WHO was it intending to educate?"
....is a question that perhaps can be answered by simply watching the
first minute of the '64 SS film, where these words appear on the screen:
"For the United States Secret Service" (screen capture below)....
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-SkfBdYGEU0I/WT_WzntQ3rI/AAAAAAABMAc/PsoBjF6oRAIdj8j7opZerwWcS5zph_QIACLcB/s1600/1964-SS-Film-Screen-Capture.png
Now, perhaps the words "For the Secret Service" could also be interpreted
as "On behalf of the Secret Service", as [Mr. Anonymous] noted [in my
e-mail conversation with him], rather than meaning the film is being made
exclusively "For" the SS. I guess that could be possible. I just do not
know, but I'm still wondering if perhaps the SS film was available to
ordinary citizens who weren't part of the Secret Service. Obviously, it is
available to everybody now. But the question is, was it commonly available
to the public back in 1964 or 1965, via possibly a FOIA request? Or was it
shown in classrooms around the country as an "Educational film"? I have no
idea. But it's interesting to ponder the possibilities.
David Von Pein
June 13, 2017
MY E-MAIL REPLIES TO A PERSON WHO PREFERS TO REMAIN ANONYMOUS.....
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Hi [xxx],
Thanks for your comments and observations. I think your knowledge of this
"Zapruder Film" subject is likely far greater than my meager knowledge.
But this topic of "Was The Z-Film Available For Public Viewing Back In
1964?" is, indeed, an interesting one, especially since many conspiracy
believers seem to think the Z-Film was being hidden away from the public
for many years just after the assassination.
I just now looked at the date that is attached to my raw file for my
digital copy of the 1964 Secret Service film, and it shows that I
downloaded that video file to my computer on June 27, 2011. So it's been
on my system for 6 years now, and yet (prior to yesterday) I never once
slapped myself on my forehead and said, "Gee, the Zapruder Film is
actually being shown in real time within this Secret Service film! And
this SS film was produced way back in '64! That seems strange!"
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9E6ed_4-hx6clV0SHhkN1dESHM/view
As for the history of the Secret Service film and its potential audience,
I haven't the foggiest idea. I was just guessing in my previous post
regarding this matter when I speculated that the SS film probably was
available to the general public right after it was made by the Secret
Service. And I labelled the film with a "1964" date on my websites (and at
YouTube) mainly due to the "post-Warren Commission" information that is
being revealed in the film by narrator Jim Underwood of KRLD. But I now
see, after probing into this matter a little bit more today, that my
"1964" caption for the SS film is, indeed, entirely accurate. I confirmed
that fact by way of information posted on the "Zapruder Film Timeline"
page at the Sixth Floor Museum's website....
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-WNy4Vez24sQ/WT_CVf8ncAI/AAAAAAABL_8/emUQDfXjJm4mMrUzWeAOJXizKxs1EFaBACLcB/s1600/History-Of-1964-SS-Film.png
See the entire Z-Film Timeline at the link below:
http://www.jfk.org/the-collections/abraham-zapruder-film/abraham-zapruder-film-timeline/
The above-linked information doesn't say exactly WHO had access to the '64
SS film, but further down in that "Z-Film Timeline" it does state that
when the Zapruder Film was shown in a New Orleans courtroom at the Clay
Shaw trial on February 13, 1969, it marked the "film's first public
showing".
An intriguing word is used, IMO, in the Sixth Floor's Z-Film Timeline
concerning the description of the '64 SS film when it is referred to as an
"educational" film. That is, btw, exactly the same
word—"Educational"—that has been floating around in my
head for the last two days as well, which prompted me to write this in my
post yesterday --- "It possibly was made available at certain libraries,
schools, and universities around the country."
So, if the Secret Service film was produced as an "Educational film", then
WHO was it intending to educate? Just people inside the U.S. Government?
Or the American people in general? My guess would be the latter. ~shrug~
BTW, the date of "March 1964" shown on that "Timeline" page at the Sixth
Floor website has to be incorrect. There's no way the film was made that
early in the Warren Commission's investigation, because the SS film
contains details and images from the Commission's May 24, 1964,
re-enactment in Dealey Plaza. So it must have been produced after at least
May of '64, and probably was made after the Warren Commission closed up
shop completely in September of '64.
EDIT --- Just a few minutes after I wrote the paragraph above, I dug up an
older version of the Sixth Floor's Z-Film Timeline (which I saved about a
year ago via Archive.org's handy "Wayback Machine"), and this older
version confirms what I said above---that the SS film was not produced
until AFTER the Warren Report was released in late 1964 (click the second
link below to see the older "Timeline" with the different—and more
accurate—description of the Secret Service film)....
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-m9xg6lTd-5M/WT_LOCKrmHI/AAAAAAABMAM/01pGa1QR9-0XBJonVDwMpFlXCfMkrgiywCLcB/s1600/Z-Film-Timeline-02.png
http://web.archive.org/web/20150702014536/http://www.jfk.org/go/collections/about/zapruder-film-chronology
DAVID VON PEIN LATER SAID:
"So, if the Secret Service film was produced as an "Educational film",
then WHO was it intending to educate?"
....is a question that perhaps can be answered by simply watching the
first minute of the '64 SS film, where these words appear on the screen:
"For the United States Secret Service" (screen capture below)....
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-SkfBdYGEU0I/WT_WzntQ3rI/AAAAAAABMAc/PsoBjF6oRAIdj8j7opZerwWcS5zph_QIACLcB/s1600/1964-SS-Film-Screen-Capture.png
Now, perhaps the words "For the Secret Service" could also be interpreted
as "On behalf of the Secret Service", as [Mr. Anonymous] noted [in my
e-mail conversation with him], rather than meaning the film is being made
exclusively "For" the SS. I guess that could be possible. I just do not
know, but I'm still wondering if perhaps the SS film was available to
ordinary citizens who weren't part of the Secret Service. Obviously, it is
available to everybody now. But the question is, was it commonly available
to the public back in 1964 or 1965, via possibly a FOIA request? Or was it
shown in classrooms around the country as an "Educational film"? I have no
idea. But it's interesting to ponder the possibilities.
David Von Pein
June 13, 2017
Anthony Marsh
Jun 13, 2017, 8:19:55 PM6/13/17
to
On 6/13/2017 9:54 AM, David Von Pein wrote:
> http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2013/02/1964-secret-service-film.html
>
As usual you are totally dishonest. You blandly state that any film
taken by the US government is automatically public domain. Then show me
the films of the Top Secret SCI tests of aircraft like the U-2. You are
a joke. You are conflating the Zapruder film with the SS reenactment
film. The Zapruder film was not taken by the US government.
It was taken by a private individual who sold the rights to LIFE
magazine. LIFE would decide how and when it got released to the public.
The National Archives locked the camera original in a vault and would
not let the public see it.
Life was very selective about publishing it.
The SS film was not made public. How can the SS make it up public?
Dozens of requests were denied even before and then after the FOIA.
You want to pretend that there was no cover-up when YOU are part of the
cover-up.
> http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2013/02/1964-secret-service-film.html
>
As usual you are totally dishonest. You blandly state that any film
taken by the US government is automatically public domain. Then show me
the films of the Top Secret SCI tests of aircraft like the U-2. You are
a joke. You are conflating the Zapruder film with the SS reenactment
film. The Zapruder film was not taken by the US government.
It was taken by a private individual who sold the rights to LIFE
magazine. LIFE would decide how and when it got released to the public.
The National Archives locked the camera original in a vault and would
not let the public see it.
Life was very selective about publishing it.
The SS film was not made public. How can the SS make it up public?
Dozens of requests were denied even before and then after the FOIA.
You want to pretend that there was no cover-up when YOU are part of the
cover-up.
Mark OBLAZNEY
Jun 13, 2017, 8:20:14 PM6/13/17
to
GKnoll
Jun 13, 2017, 10:42:45 PM6/13/17
to
altered. We know that because Robert Groden told us he altered it. Here is
what he tells us he did the film "First, I rephotographed the film, frame
by frame, repositioning the President in each frame so the motions were
fluid. I zoomed in, making the images larger within the frame, then used a
technique called step framing to slow it down. "
That is what he told us he did to the film, is that all he did? So, the
film that Geraldo showed to the public was indeed altered.
jfk...@gmail.com
Jun 13, 2017, 10:48:52 PM6/13/17
to
briefly at the Charles Theater in November, 1964. I talk about that in my
2013 NID presentation "Midnight Blue to Black". Here's a link:
https://ss100x.wordpress.com/2013/12/05/midnight-blue-to-black-the-vanishing-act-of-the-jfk-presidential-limousine-ss100x-in-broad-daylight/
Pamela Brown
David Von Pein
Jun 13, 2017, 11:04:13 PM6/13/17
to
David Von Pein
Jun 14, 2017, 12:04:48 AM6/14/17
to
On Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 8:19:55 PM UTC-4, Anthony Marsh wrote:
> On 6/13/2017 9:54 AM, David Von Pein wrote:
> > http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2013/02/1964-secret-service-film.html
> >
>
>
> As usual you are totally dishonest. You blandly state that any film
> taken by the US government is automatically public domain. Then show me
> the films of the Top Secret SCI tests of aircraft like the U-2. You are
> a joke. You are conflating the Zapruder film with the SS reenactment
> film. The Zapruder film was not taken by the US government.
I'm not "conflating" anything. I never said the Z-Film was public domain, for Christ sake! I said that the SS film is public domain. And it just so happens that the Z-Film is contained *within* that SS film.
> On 6/13/2017 9:54 AM, David Von Pein wrote:
> > http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2013/02/1964-secret-service-film.html
> >
>
>
> As usual you are totally dishonest. You blandly state that any film
> taken by the US government is automatically public domain. Then show me
> the films of the Top Secret SCI tests of aircraft like the U-2. You are
> a joke. You are conflating the Zapruder film with the SS reenactment
> film. The Zapruder film was not taken by the US government.
The real joke is a man named Marsh.
> It was taken by a private individual who sold the rights to LIFE
> magazine. LIFE would decide how and when it got released to the public.
> The National Archives locked the camera original in a vault and would
> not let the public see it.
> Life was very selective about publishing it.
> The SS film was not made public. How can the SS make it up public?
> Dozens of requests were denied even before and then after the FOIA.
> You want to pretend that there was no cover-up when YOU are part of the
> cover-up.
Anthony Marsh
Jun 14, 2017, 9:49:19 AM6/14/17
to
Anthony Marsh
Jun 14, 2017, 9:49:33 AM6/14/17
to
the Zapruder film is authentic no matter how it may have been abused
through the years. I assume you read my essay and agree with it.
r2bz...@sbcglobal.net
Jun 14, 2017, 9:51:01 AM6/14/17
to
have not been altered.
Zapruder himself, pointed at the right side of his head, as to being where
JFK's head exploded out. His film confirmed what he saw through the lens
of his camera.
OHLeeRedux
Jun 14, 2017, 10:34:01 AM6/14/17
to
On Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 5:19:55 PM UTC-7, Anthony Marsh wrote:
> On 6/13/2017 9:54 AM, David Von Pein wrote:
> > http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2013/02/1964-secret-service-film.html
> >
>
>
> As usual you are totally dishonest.
Says the Internet's primary purveyor of alternative facts.
> On 6/13/2017 9:54 AM, David Von Pein wrote:
> > http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2013/02/1964-secret-service-film.html
> >
>
>
> As usual you are totally dishonest.
Anthony Marsh
Jun 14, 2017, 10:34:56 AM6/14/17
to
Zapruder film. It is a book, not a film. I also have the original LIFE
magazines which printed some Zapruder frames. Again those are magazines
not the film. I also had a black and white bootleg copy of the Zapruder
film. Again, that is not the original Zapruder film. Maybe you aren't
aware of the fact that I am the guy who proved that the Zapruder film is
authentic. Why didn't I do that on 11/22/63 and cut off decades of
spectulation and wild conspiracy theories? Because the US government would
not let the public have access to the Zapruder film. I had to wait until
1998 for MPI to make its digitized copy and Zavada to examine the original
film stock. No thanks to people like you and the other WC defenders who
always opposed ANY research.
Here's an analogy that maybe even you are smart enough to understand. Many
years ago someone leaked some autopsy photos. But the government has still
not released the autopsy photos to the public. Do you understand the
difference?
Anthony Marsh
Jun 14, 2017, 10:36:09 AM6/14/17
to
All the way to jail.
>
>
>
>>> Further comments, concerns, observations...?
>>>
>
>
otu...@gmail.com
Jun 14, 2017, 8:48:30 PM6/14/17
to
Response to David Von Pein to the garbage he posted above^^^
Show us in your WC Bible where after publishing DPD Officer J.C. White's
testimony (volume 6 of hearings)that a noisy freight train passing across
the triple underpass railroad bridge obscured his view of the ambush of
JFK, as well as hearing the gunfire, the WC followed up that testimony
either as its own fact-finding body or assisted by Hoover's FBI.
Show us where witnesses that also testified to the WC (S.M. Holland, Lee
Bowers, James Eric 'Bill' Decker particularly)were asked about a train
crossing the triple underpass bridge at the time of the JFK ambush. While
you're at it, show us where these & other witnesses were asked when train
activity was stopped at & around the triple underpass. How many trains
moved across the bridge the day of the assassination, David. Who ordered
the 8 railroad companies that ran their trains both directions across the
triple underpass to stop train movement (or continue it) 22 Nov, 1963.
Where can we read the interviews & statements of senior railroad officials
for the Union Terminal Company & its 8 participating railroad companies in
the WC?
Remember, the WC was a fact finding body for not only LBJ, but also the
entire US Government & global peoples. Show us where Bill Decker was asked
why he ordered his men into the railroad yards in the WC.
The load of crap is what you sell, David Von Pein.
Otus Chambers
Show us in your WC Bible where after publishing DPD Officer J.C. White's
testimony (volume 6 of hearings)that a noisy freight train passing across
the triple underpass railroad bridge obscured his view of the ambush of
JFK, as well as hearing the gunfire, the WC followed up that testimony
either as its own fact-finding body or assisted by Hoover's FBI.
Show us where witnesses that also testified to the WC (S.M. Holland, Lee
Bowers, James Eric 'Bill' Decker particularly)were asked about a train
crossing the triple underpass bridge at the time of the JFK ambush. While
you're at it, show us where these & other witnesses were asked when train
activity was stopped at & around the triple underpass. How many trains
moved across the bridge the day of the assassination, David. Who ordered
the 8 railroad companies that ran their trains both directions across the
triple underpass to stop train movement (or continue it) 22 Nov, 1963.
Where can we read the interviews & statements of senior railroad officials
for the Union Terminal Company & its 8 participating railroad companies in
the WC?
Remember, the WC was a fact finding body for not only LBJ, but also the
entire US Government & global peoples. Show us where Bill Decker was asked
why he ordered his men into the railroad yards in the WC.
The load of crap is what you sell, David Von Pein.
Otus Chambers
Anthony Marsh
Jun 15, 2017, 12:48:37 PM6/15/17
to
work for the Russians?
otu...@gmail.com
Jun 15, 2017, 6:54:35 PM6/15/17
to
Some additional questions for David Von Pein:
Show is in the SS re-enactment film where the train DPD Officer J.C. White
testified to the WC in April, 1964 was travelling across the triple
underpass when the attack on JFK & JBC occurred? Keep in mind, the
evidence that such a train movement occurred is published in Volume 6 of
the WC Hearings. That's official Government evidence. Where is it in the
SS re-enactment film & why is it missing?
How many educators have you found that will attest to the SS Re-enactment
film being shown to them (as educators) or to their class students at
middle, high school or college level at any time during the 1960's?
Getting back to J.C. White's train: how many trains travelled in either
direction across the triple underpass the day JFK was ambushed & killed.
What company did those trains belong to? What company did the J.C. White
train belong to? When did train movement stop on Nov 22, 1963? Who stopped
it & how?
The missing Queen Mary & the bodyguards from the SS re-enactment film has
been covered before. Actor stand-ins would not have been needed in 1964
because all guards present during the attack on JFK & JBC were still
alive. The missing 'Queen Mary' was still assigned to the SS in 1964; its
absence is ludicrous.
Show is in the SS re-enactment film where the train DPD Officer J.C. White
testified to the WC in April, 1964 was travelling across the triple
underpass when the attack on JFK & JBC occurred? Keep in mind, the
evidence that such a train movement occurred is published in Volume 6 of
the WC Hearings. That's official Government evidence. Where is it in the
SS re-enactment film & why is it missing?
How many educators have you found that will attest to the SS Re-enactment
film being shown to them (as educators) or to their class students at
middle, high school or college level at any time during the 1960's?
Getting back to J.C. White's train: how many trains travelled in either
direction across the triple underpass the day JFK was ambushed & killed.
What company did those trains belong to? What company did the J.C. White
train belong to? When did train movement stop on Nov 22, 1963? Who stopped
it & how?
The missing Queen Mary & the bodyguards from the SS re-enactment film has
been covered before. Actor stand-ins would not have been needed in 1964
because all guards present during the attack on JFK & JBC were still
alive. The missing 'Queen Mary' was still assigned to the SS in 1964; its
absence is ludicrous.
mainframetech
Jun 15, 2017, 6:54:53 PM6/15/17
to
Chris
quan...@yahoo.com
Jun 15, 2017, 6:57:01 PM6/15/17
to
On Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:24:12 PM UTC+9:30, David Von Pein wrote:
> http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2013/02/1964-secret-service-film.html
The Secret Service Zapruder film does not appear to be full frame.
Compare the "head shot" framing in the Secret Service film with this
version. In the Secret Service black and white version, i can't even see
Kennedy's right arm flip up, the bottom of the frames appears to be cut
off.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bw9AtJI63A6uZVBZbTA1MnJCRFU/view?usp=sharing
> http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2013/02/1964-secret-service-film.html
The Secret Service Zapruder film does not appear to be full frame.
Compare the "head shot" framing in the Secret Service film with this
version. In the Secret Service black and white version, i can't even see
Kennedy's right arm flip up, the bottom of the frames appears to be cut
off.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bw9AtJI63A6uZVBZbTA1MnJCRFU/view?usp=sharing
quan...@yahoo.com
Jun 15, 2017, 8:58:30 PM6/15/17
to
On Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:24:12 PM UTC+9:30, David Von Pein wrote:
> http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2013/02/1964-secret-service-film.html
The Secret Service film is a cropped version of the Zapruder film.
> http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2013/02/1964-secret-service-film.html
http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/a585/quaneeri2/Zapruder.jpg
Anthony Marsh
Jun 15, 2017, 10:15:01 PM6/15/17
to
On 6/14/2017 8:48 PM, otu...@gmail.com wrote:
> Response to David Von Pein to the garbage he posted above^^^
>
> Show us in your WC Bible where after publishing DPD Officer J.C. White's
> testimony (volume 6 of hearings)that a noisy freight train passing across
> the triple underpass railroad bridge obscured his view of the ambush of
> JFK, as well as hearing the gunfire, the WC followed up that testimony
> either as its own fact-finding body or assisted by Hoover's FBI.
>
Why are you asking the cover-up? That was debunked a long time ago. You
> Response to David Von Pein to the garbage he posted above^^^
>
> Show us in your WC Bible where after publishing DPD Officer J.C. White's
> testimony (volume 6 of hearings)that a noisy freight train passing across
> the triple underpass railroad bridge obscured his view of the ambush of
> JFK, as well as hearing the gunfire, the WC followed up that testimony
> either as its own fact-finding body or assisted by Hoover's FBI.
>
can read through the old messages. They may not even be familiar with
those witnesses. The Altgens 7 shows no train, as well as the Paschall
film. Maybe only one or two trains passed about noon.
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=QaFCgPpt&id=502EED2E7BEA860438D5E39515274E8485CA2C60&thid=OIP.QaFCgPptwMml5FMZlFlOaQE_DD&q=altgens+7+overpass&simid=608027466381725132&selectedIndex=1&ajaxhist=0
http://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Alt7crop.jpg
http://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/Paschall_Life_1967.JPG
> Show us where witnesses that also testified to the WC (S.M. Holland, Lee
> Bowers, James Eric 'Bill' Decker particularly)were asked about a train
> crossing the triple underpass bridge at the time of the JFK ambush. While
> you're at it, show us where these & other witnesses were asked when train
> activity was stopped at & around the triple underpass. How many trains
> moved across the bridge the day of the assassination, David. Who ordered
> the 8 railroad companies that ran their trains both directions across the
> triple underpass to stop train movement (or continue it) 22 Nov, 1963.
> Where can we read the interviews & statements of senior railroad officials
> for the Union Terminal Company & its 8 participating railroad companies in
> the WC?
>
> Remember, the WC was a fact finding body for not only LBJ, but also the
The WC was not a fact finding body. It was a cover-up. They didn't want
to find facts.
> entire US Government & global peoples. Show us where Bill Decker was asked
> why he ordered his men into the railroad yards in the WC.
>
David Von Pein
Jun 16, 2017, 10:14:24 AM6/16/17
to
You like to just make stuff up out of whole cloth, don't you Marsh?
David Von Pein
Jun 16, 2017, 10:22:24 AM6/16/17
to
On Thursday, June 15, 2017 at 6:54:35 PM UTC-4, otu...@gmail.com wrote:
> Some additional questions for David Von Pein:
>
> Show is in the SS re-enactment film where the train DPD Officer J.C. White
> testified to the WC in April, 1964 was travelling across the triple
> underpass when the attack on JFK & JBC occurred? Keep in mind, the
> evidence that such a train movement occurred is published in Volume 6 of
> the WC Hearings. That's official Government evidence. Where is it in the
> SS re-enactment film & why is it missing?
>
I have no idea why Officer J.C. White said there a "big noisy freight
> Some additional questions for David Von Pein:
>
> Show is in the SS re-enactment film where the train DPD Officer J.C. White
> testified to the WC in April, 1964 was travelling across the triple
> underpass when the attack on JFK & JBC occurred? Keep in mind, the
> evidence that such a train movement occurred is published in Volume 6 of
> the WC Hearings. That's official Government evidence. Where is it in the
> SS re-enactment film & why is it missing?
>
train" on the Overpass at the time of the shooting. I've always wondered
why in the world White testified there was. But one of Jim Altgens' photos
and the Mark Bell film prove that White was wrong---there was no train on
the bridge at the time of the assassination....
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_6kYzhJGqq2M/TJa_33_avoI/AAAAAAAAFYE/Rg2fofVn0nU/s2000/AltgensUnderpassPhotoFull.jpg
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8UwZ588YcqISl9wLUpfQjFuQ00/view
FWIW, I'll also point out some narration by Richard Basehart in the film
"Four Days In November" (6:20 into the film)....
"...and trains re-scheduled to keep tracks clear."
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2-OhzkwjAf0NTZTMmkxZ1pmR0k/view
I've never confirmed exactly where producer David L. Wolper got that info
about "keeping tracks clear" on 11/22/63, but such a policy and practice
among law enforcement agencies seems entirely reasonable to me. (Or do you
think Wolper & Company just *made up* the part about keeping the railroad
tracks free of trains?)
otu...@gmail.com
Jun 16, 2017, 7:36:32 PM6/16/17
to
Anthony is correct; the WC was not interested in finding the facts around
the shooting death of JFK & wounding of John Connally & James Tague. Using
DPD officer J.C. White's testimony about a train passing over the triple
underpass during the JFK ambush that blocked his view & hearing of the
event, one need look as far as the testimony of Bill Decker, Jesse Curry,
Forest Sorrels & Winston Lawson & note what those people were NOT asked
about train movements & stoppage before, during & after the ambush to
clearly see that the facts were not of interest to the WC & reporting the
truth of the event to the public was not their priority.
Take Decker's testimony, nothing about the shooting, why he ordered his
men to the railyards, why he didn't go into the railyards himself & lead
his police responders, etc. Instead of asking Decker questions about the
ambush, the WC let him off the hook by meekly accepting a Decker prepared
'report' of what he had to say about the matter (CE 5321-CE 5323).
The J.C. White train is a big deal. At the very least, it indicates JFK's
motorcade security was violated immediately before & during the ambush
that killed him. It also raises the possibility that shooters entered &
left Dealey Plaza via the 'phantom train'.
And where was Hoover investigating all of this? Hoover's boys need only
walk over to the Union Terminal Railroad (now out of business)to obtain a
schedule of all trains that moved across the triple underpass Nov 22,
1963, who the trains belonged to, who stopped train movement (deviated
from the railroad schedule)for the Presidential motorcade & how. Not hard
at all to get that info in 1964.To top it off, The WC had both Lee Bowers
& S.M. Holland testify under oath & failed to ask them one question about
the J.C. White 'phantom train', even though Bowers & Holland has testified
days after J.C. White did.
As I said previously, the WC & its baby brother, the SS re-enactment
(along with the FBI re-enactment) were all tools to deviate from train
activity in Dealey Plaza before, during & after the ambush of JFK. David
Von Pein took all that NY Times & Walter Cronkite TV hype to heart with
their glorious praise of his WC bible (the oldest testament). David
actually believes that garbage.
Before I forget, a small amount of info about train movements can be found
in the WC testimony of either Winston Lawson or Forrest Sorrels. It's not
much, but it's more than the WC gave us in 1964.
By publishing J.C. White's 'phantom train' testimony, the WC (oldest
testament) gave license to schoolkids to report the train as fact in their
JFK assassination reports without delivering the facts the public yearns
for over a half-century later.
the shooting death of JFK & wounding of John Connally & James Tague. Using
DPD officer J.C. White's testimony about a train passing over the triple
underpass during the JFK ambush that blocked his view & hearing of the
event, one need look as far as the testimony of Bill Decker, Jesse Curry,
Forest Sorrels & Winston Lawson & note what those people were NOT asked
about train movements & stoppage before, during & after the ambush to
clearly see that the facts were not of interest to the WC & reporting the
truth of the event to the public was not their priority.
Take Decker's testimony, nothing about the shooting, why he ordered his
men to the railyards, why he didn't go into the railyards himself & lead
his police responders, etc. Instead of asking Decker questions about the
ambush, the WC let him off the hook by meekly accepting a Decker prepared
'report' of what he had to say about the matter (CE 5321-CE 5323).
The J.C. White train is a big deal. At the very least, it indicates JFK's
motorcade security was violated immediately before & during the ambush
that killed him. It also raises the possibility that shooters entered &
left Dealey Plaza via the 'phantom train'.
And where was Hoover investigating all of this? Hoover's boys need only
walk over to the Union Terminal Railroad (now out of business)to obtain a
schedule of all trains that moved across the triple underpass Nov 22,
1963, who the trains belonged to, who stopped train movement (deviated
from the railroad schedule)for the Presidential motorcade & how. Not hard
at all to get that info in 1964.To top it off, The WC had both Lee Bowers
& S.M. Holland testify under oath & failed to ask them one question about
the J.C. White 'phantom train', even though Bowers & Holland has testified
days after J.C. White did.
As I said previously, the WC & its baby brother, the SS re-enactment
(along with the FBI re-enactment) were all tools to deviate from train
activity in Dealey Plaza before, during & after the ambush of JFK. David
Von Pein took all that NY Times & Walter Cronkite TV hype to heart with
their glorious praise of his WC bible (the oldest testament). David
actually believes that garbage.
Before I forget, a small amount of info about train movements can be found
in the WC testimony of either Winston Lawson or Forrest Sorrels. It's not
much, but it's more than the WC gave us in 1964.
By publishing J.C. White's 'phantom train' testimony, the WC (oldest
testament) gave license to schoolkids to report the train as fact in their
JFK assassination reports without delivering the facts the public yearns
for over a half-century later.
Anthony Marsh
Jun 16, 2017, 7:37:55 PM6/16/17
to
He still thinks in his limited mind that he had refuted me.
I never asked that they show the public the ENTIRE Zapruder film.
I really don't think there are any clues for us to glean from seeing his
grandson playing. Although it does help us understand the ghost images.
Anthony Marsh
Jun 16, 2017, 11:06:53 PM6/16/17
to
film is just as good for investigative research as the camera original in
color? Not even the kookiest of our conspiracy researchers ever said that.
Again, he doesn't even understand the difference between a black and white
copy and the color camera original. And he expects to be respected and
feared?
John McAdams
Jun 16, 2017, 11:09:48 PM6/16/17
to
On 16 Jun 2017 23:06:52 -0400, Anthony Marsh
>Again, he doesn't even understand the difference between a black and white
>copy and the color camera original. And he expects to be respected and
>feared?
>
Tony, the fellow with a perpetual bug up his ass, is somehow mad
because Von Pein made a very interesting discovery.
.John
-----------------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
<anthon...@comcast.net> wrote:
>On 6/15/2017 6:57 PM, quan...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:24:12 PM UTC+9:30, David Von Pein wrote:
>>> http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2013/02/1964-secret-service-film.html
>>
>> The Secret Service Zapruder film does not appear to be full frame.
>>
>> Compare the "head shot" framing in the Secret Service film with this
>> version. In the Secret Service black and white version, i can't even see
>> Kennedy's right arm flip up, the bottom of the frames appears to be cut
>> off.
>>
>> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bw9AtJI63A6uZVBZbTA1MnJCRFU/view?usp=sharing
>>
>
>DVP wants to claim that the crappy black and white COPY of the Zapruder
>film is just as good for investigative research as the camera original in
>color? Not even the kookiest of our conspiracy researchers ever said that.
>
You simply should not pull stuff that isn't true out of your ass.
>On 6/15/2017 6:57 PM, quan...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 11:24:12 PM UTC+9:30, David Von Pein wrote:
>>> http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2013/02/1964-secret-service-film.html
>>
>> The Secret Service Zapruder film does not appear to be full frame.
>>
>> Compare the "head shot" framing in the Secret Service film with this
>> version. In the Secret Service black and white version, i can't even see
>> Kennedy's right arm flip up, the bottom of the frames appears to be cut
>> off.
>>
>> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bw9AtJI63A6uZVBZbTA1MnJCRFU/view?usp=sharing
>>
>
>DVP wants to claim that the crappy black and white COPY of the Zapruder
>film is just as good for investigative research as the camera original in
>color? Not even the kookiest of our conspiracy researchers ever said that.
>
>Again, he doesn't even understand the difference between a black and white
>copy and the color camera original. And he expects to be respected and
>feared?
>
because Von Pein made a very interesting discovery.
.John
-----------------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
Anthony Marsh
Jun 16, 2017, 11:15:08 PM6/16/17
to
On 6/15/2017 6:54 PM, otu...@gmail.com wrote:
> Some additional questions for David Von Pein:
>
> Show is in the SS re-enactment film where the train DPD Officer J.C. White
> testified to the WC in April, 1964 was travelling across the triple
> underpass when the attack on JFK & JBC occurred? Keep in mind, the
> evidence that such a train movement occurred is published in Volume 6 of
> the WC Hearings. That's official Government evidence. Where is it in the
> SS re-enactment film & why is it missing?
>
I'm still not sure what you are babbling about. There was no train going
> Some additional questions for David Von Pein:
>
> Show is in the SS re-enactment film where the train DPD Officer J.C. White
> testified to the WC in April, 1964 was travelling across the triple
> underpass when the attack on JFK & JBC occurred? Keep in mind, the
> evidence that such a train movement occurred is published in Volume 6 of
> the WC Hearings. That's official Government evidence. Where is it in the
> SS re-enactment film & why is it missing?
>
over the triple overpass during the shooting. I don't know where you are
getting this crap from. Tell us the book. It was debunked many years
ago, even in this newsgroup.
Look at he damn photos.
> How many educators have you found that will attest to the SS Re-enactment
> film being shown to them (as educators) or to their class students at
> middle, high school or college level at any time during the 1960's?
>
bootleg black and white copy and how could they prove it? The original
film was never shown to the public.
> Getting back to J.C. White's train: how many trains travelled in either
> direction across the triple underpass the day JFK was ambushed & killed.
> What company did those trains belong to? What company did the J.C. White
not. I am sure someone wrote an article about it, but YOU don't have the
skills to find it. Maybe in The Third Decade. Maybe Duke Lane. But you
can't even figure out how to use Google. Use Bing instead, it's easier.
> train belong to? When did train movement stop on Nov 22, 1963? Who stopped
> it & how?
>
> The missing Queen Mary & the bodyguards from the SS re-enactment film has
> been covered before. Actor stand-ins would not have been needed in 1964
> because all guards present during the attack on JFK & JBC were still
> alive. The missing 'Queen Mary' was still assigned to the SS in 1964; its
> absence is ludicrous.
>
Kennedy and Connally perfectly?
And did you know that they couldn't use the original limousine because
it had been sent out to be bullet proofed?
otu...@gmail.com
Jun 16, 2017, 11:36:53 PM6/16/17
to
To: David Von Pein:
The mysterious drama of the J.C. White triple underpass train at the time
of the JFK ambush doesn't end with that officer's testimony to the WC in
April, 1964. The Dallas police audio tapes (that the WC read portions from
a transcript to some called to testify)indicates a train was stopped on
the overpass bridge that JFK's limo was driven under on its way to
Parkland hospital via the Stemmons freeway. The transcript describes
police looking for an individual hiding in one of the boxcars.
This little bit of info opens a Pandora's box of questions. Was this
stopped train also on top of the railroad bridge when JFK (now dead) was
driven under it following the ambush? Who stopped the train & how? Did Lee
Bowers play a part in stopping this train with his tower's signal lights?
Did the Union Terminal Company's signal supervisor (S.M. Holland) play a
part in stopping this train? How about the unknown railroad detective that
is mentioned in portions of testimony in the WC and the Mark Lane 1966
filmed interview of three of the railroad workers on top of the triple
underpass during the ambush of JFK (S.M. Holland, Richard Simmons, Richard
Dodd, was the detective involved in stopping the train?
The transcript does not give a clear picture of who was communicating with
police or the dispatcher concerning this stopped train.
Again, where in the SS re-enactment are viewers told about this stopped
train discussed in the DPD audio tapes? Where is it discussed in the FBI
re-enactment of the shooting conducted in 1964?
The point I'm trying to make is that after more than a half century, we
still don't know everything that occurred when JFK & entourage were
ambushed. As Anthony pointed out, this is due primarily because the
Government body that the global public depended on to tell them all the
facts that occurred Nov 22, 1963 when JFK & JBC were attacked (the WC)
failed to properly & completely investigate the circumstances of the
crimes against JFK, John Connally & James Tague that occurred in Dealey
Plaza.
Keeping in mind that the WC had the support of Hoover's FBI (supposedly) &
the report & 26 volumes was assembled by lawyers, the questions the global
public has today is a travesty to history & the WC is a monument to
incompetence & blundering in many minds.
That's what makes what you sell so tough, David Von Pein. More people
around the globe don't buy the official story as told by the WC (Old
Testament) & its big sister the HSCA (New Testament). Much of what slipped
past the WC unresolved also slipped past the HSCA in the same state.
Pitiful handling of a national tragedy by people entrusted to tell the
public the truth involved in two Government investigations is not easy to
sell, no matter how it's buffed & shined.
The mysterious drama of the J.C. White triple underpass train at the time
of the JFK ambush doesn't end with that officer's testimony to the WC in
April, 1964. The Dallas police audio tapes (that the WC read portions from
a transcript to some called to testify)indicates a train was stopped on
the overpass bridge that JFK's limo was driven under on its way to
Parkland hospital via the Stemmons freeway. The transcript describes
police looking for an individual hiding in one of the boxcars.
This little bit of info opens a Pandora's box of questions. Was this
stopped train also on top of the railroad bridge when JFK (now dead) was
driven under it following the ambush? Who stopped the train & how? Did Lee
Bowers play a part in stopping this train with his tower's signal lights?
Did the Union Terminal Company's signal supervisor (S.M. Holland) play a
part in stopping this train? How about the unknown railroad detective that
is mentioned in portions of testimony in the WC and the Mark Lane 1966
filmed interview of three of the railroad workers on top of the triple
underpass during the ambush of JFK (S.M. Holland, Richard Simmons, Richard
Dodd, was the detective involved in stopping the train?
The transcript does not give a clear picture of who was communicating with
police or the dispatcher concerning this stopped train.
Again, where in the SS re-enactment are viewers told about this stopped
train discussed in the DPD audio tapes? Where is it discussed in the FBI
re-enactment of the shooting conducted in 1964?
The point I'm trying to make is that after more than a half century, we
still don't know everything that occurred when JFK & entourage were
ambushed. As Anthony pointed out, this is due primarily because the
Government body that the global public depended on to tell them all the
facts that occurred Nov 22, 1963 when JFK & JBC were attacked (the WC)
failed to properly & completely investigate the circumstances of the
crimes against JFK, John Connally & James Tague that occurred in Dealey
Plaza.
Keeping in mind that the WC had the support of Hoover's FBI (supposedly) &
the report & 26 volumes was assembled by lawyers, the questions the global
public has today is a travesty to history & the WC is a monument to
incompetence & blundering in many minds.
That's what makes what you sell so tough, David Von Pein. More people
around the globe don't buy the official story as told by the WC (Old
Testament) & its big sister the HSCA (New Testament). Much of what slipped
past the WC unresolved also slipped past the HSCA in the same state.
Pitiful handling of a national tragedy by people entrusted to tell the
public the truth involved in two Government investigations is not easy to
sell, no matter how it's buffed & shined.
Anthony Marsh
Jun 17, 2017, 9:33:39 AM6/17/17
to
wan the public on the overpasses for security reasons.
Anthony Marsh
Jun 17, 2017, 1:47:29 PM6/17/17
to
On 6/16/2017 7:36 PM, otu...@gmail.com wrote:
> Anthony is correct; the WC was not interested in finding the facts around
> the shooting death of JFK & wounding of John Connally & James Tague. Using
> DPD officer J.C. White's testimony about a train passing over the triple
> underpass during the JFK ambush that blocked his view & hearing of the
> event, one need look as far as the testimony of Bill Decker, Jesse Curry,
> Forest Sorrels & Winston Lawson & note what those people were NOT asked
> about train movements & stoppage before, during & after the ambush to
> clearly see that the facts were not of interest to the WC & reporting the
> truth of the event to the public was not their priority.
>
> Take Decker's testimony, nothing about the shooting, why he ordered his
> men to the railyards, why he didn't go into the railyards himself & lead
> his police responders, etc. Instead of asking Decker questions about the
> ambush, the WC let him off the hook by meekly accepting a Decker prepared
> 'report' of what he had to say about the matter (CE 5321-CE 5323).
>
> The J.C. White train is a big deal. At the very least, it indicates JFK's
> motorcade security was violated immediately before & during the ambush
> that killed him. It also raises the possibility that shooters entered &
> left Dealey Plaza via the 'phantom train'.
>
No, there was no train. Just after the shooting a train was searched and
> Anthony is correct; the WC was not interested in finding the facts around
> the shooting death of JFK & wounding of John Connally & James Tague. Using
> DPD officer J.C. White's testimony about a train passing over the triple
> underpass during the JFK ambush that blocked his view & hearing of the
> event, one need look as far as the testimony of Bill Decker, Jesse Curry,
> Forest Sorrels & Winston Lawson & note what those people were NOT asked
> about train movements & stoppage before, during & after the ambush to
> clearly see that the facts were not of interest to the WC & reporting the
> truth of the event to the public was not their priority.
>
> Take Decker's testimony, nothing about the shooting, why he ordered his
> men to the railyards, why he didn't go into the railyards himself & lead
> his police responders, etc. Instead of asking Decker questions about the
> ambush, the WC let him off the hook by meekly accepting a Decker prepared
> 'report' of what he had to say about the matter (CE 5321-CE 5323).
>
> The J.C. White train is a big deal. At the very least, it indicates JFK's
> motorcade security was violated immediately before & during the ambush
> that killed him. It also raises the possibility that shooters entered &
> left Dealey Plaza via the 'phantom train'.
>
they found 3 men. Why don't you claim they were the real shooters? Think a
hobo can't be an assassin? Homeless guy in Alexandria sleeps on the park
bench and has an AR-15 with TWO 30-round magazines?
> And where was Hoover investigating all of this? Hoover's boys need only
> walk over to the Union Terminal Railroad (now out of business)to obtain a
> schedule of all trains that moved across the triple underpass Nov 22,
can't the Sheriff's department do that?
> 1963, who the trains belonged to, who stopped train movement (deviated
> from the railroad schedule)for the Presidential motorcade & how. Not hard
overpasses.
> at all to get that info in 1964.To top it off, The WC had both Lee Bowers
> & S.M. Holland testify under oath & failed to ask them one question about
> the J.C. White 'phantom train', even though Bowers & Holland has testified
> days after J.C. White did.
>
sequence?
> As I said previously, the WC & its baby brother, the SS re-enactment
> (along with the FBI re-enactment) were all tools to deviate from train
> activity in Dealey Plaza before, during & after the ambush of JFK. David
> Von Pein took all that NY Times & Walter Cronkite TV hype to heart with
> their glorious praise of his WC bible (the oldest testament). David
> actually believes that garbage.
>
> Before I forget, a small amount of info about train movements can be found
> in the WC testimony of either Winston Lawson or Forrest Sorrels. It's not
> much, but it's more than the WC gave us in 1964.
>
> By publishing J.C. White's 'phantom train' testimony, the WC (oldest
> testament) gave license to schoolkids to report the train as fact in their
> JFK assassination reports without delivering the facts the public yearns
> for over a half-century later.
>
quan...@yahoo.com
Jun 17, 2017, 1:52:08 PM6/17/17
to
On Friday, June 16, 2017 at 11:45:01 AM UTC+9:30, Anthony Marsh wrote:
> On 6/14/2017 8:48 PM, otu...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Response to David Von Pein to the garbage he posted above^^^
> >
> > Show us in your WC Bible where after publishing DPD Officer J.C. White's
> > testimony (volume 6 of hearings)that a noisy freight train passing across
> > the triple underpass railroad bridge obscured his view of the ambush of
> > JFK, as well as hearing the gunfire, the WC followed up that testimony
> > either as its own fact-finding body or assisted by Hoover's FBI.
> >
>
> Why are you asking the cover-up? That was debunked a long time ago. You
> can read through the old messages. They may not even be familiar with
> those witnesses. The Altgens 7 shows no train, as well as the Paschall
> film. Maybe only one or two trains passed about noon.
>
Correct,there was NO train on the overpass during the assassination
> On 6/14/2017 8:48 PM, otu...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Response to David Von Pein to the garbage he posted above^^^
> >
> > Show us in your WC Bible where after publishing DPD Officer J.C. White's
> > testimony (volume 6 of hearings)that a noisy freight train passing across
> > the triple underpass railroad bridge obscured his view of the ambush of
> > JFK, as well as hearing the gunfire, the WC followed up that testimony
> > either as its own fact-finding body or assisted by Hoover's FBI.
> >
>
> Why are you asking the cover-up? That was debunked a long time ago. You
> can read through the old messages. They may not even be familiar with
> those witnesses. The Altgens 7 shows no train, as well as the Paschall
> film. Maybe only one or two trains passed about noon.
>
Timeline.
Stabilized Bell GIF
http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/a585/quaneeri2/49fc14b8-5fb0-49ac-9f63-739c058dde9f.gif
Had there been a train on the overpass during the assassination Timeline
it would have been very obvious to everyone standing in Dealey Plaza.
This is how a train looks when crossing the overpass.
http://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/dec27%5E01b_underpass.jpg
David Von Pein
Jun 17, 2017, 1:53:04 PM6/17/17
to
On Friday, June 16, 2017 at 11:15:08 PM UTC-4, Anthony Marsh wrote:
> On 6/15/2017 6:54 PM, otu...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Some additional questions for David Von Pein:
> >
> > Show is in the SS re-enactment film where the train DPD Officer J.C. White
> > testified to the WC in April, 1964 was travelling across the triple
> > underpass when the attack on JFK & JBC occurred? Keep in mind, the
> > evidence that such a train movement occurred is published in Volume 6 of
> > the WC Hearings. That's official Government evidence. Where is it in the
> > SS re-enactment film & why is it missing?
> >
>
> I'm still not sure what you are babbling about.
I have to agree with Tony (for once). I don't have any idea what Otus'
> On 6/15/2017 6:54 PM, otu...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Some additional questions for David Von Pein:
> >
> > Show is in the SS re-enactment film where the train DPD Officer J.C. White
> > testified to the WC in April, 1964 was travelling across the triple
> > underpass when the attack on JFK & JBC occurred? Keep in mind, the
> > evidence that such a train movement occurred is published in Volume 6 of
> > the WC Hearings. That's official Government evidence. Where is it in the
> > SS re-enactment film & why is it missing?
> >
>
> I'm still not sure what you are babbling about.
point is either. It's clear as can be that Officer White was dead wrong
about the "noisy train". There was no train on the bridge at 12:30 PM when
JFK was passing underneath that bridge.
So (I guess) Otus must think the Bell film AND the Paschall film AND the
Altgens photo are all fake (somehow). Crazy.
otu...@gmail.com
Jun 17, 2017, 7:45:36 PM6/17/17
to
The question that hangs in the air about J.C. White's triple underpass
train movement testimony of April 1964 is why did the WC publish it? Why
did the WC publish the questions asked of some called to testimony from
the DPD audio tape transcript about a stopped train on one of the
overpasses & police searching for someone reportedly hiding in a boxcar.
Why was that published? Clearly, something was happening with at least one
train during or in the aftermath of the assassination.
Here's my opinion: The friction between Hoover & some of the WC
commissioners & staff is well documented in several books. The
commissioners complaining about Hoover leaking info to the press &
thwarting the WC's investigation efforts is well documented.
I believe J.C. White's testimony was purposely published in the WC
Hearings volume for Hoover to deal with after the WC closed shop. Possibly
after LBJ was no longer President. Of the 3 entities (WC, LBJ & Hoover),
Hoover had the longest apparent shelf life. I believe it is a small clue
left in the report to alert the public that the WC was diverted away from
some areas they were attempting to investigate by Hoover. leaving J.C.
White's testimony in the report was the WC's way of shooting Hoover the
bird IMHO.
For those with a CT mind, it doesn't take much to suspect train
involvement in the assassination of JFK, either in Dealey Plaza or a
backup plan for the train trestle bridge JFK was driven under immediately
after his limo departed the triple underpass tunnel. The seeds for such a
scenario were published in the WC & have been there for over a half
century. It surprised me that Oliver Stone didn't pick up on it in his
1991 movie. I expect some resourceful author will publish another CT
theory book sometime in the future about the Union Terminal Company
trains.
David Von Pein & others like him will have new partners to dance with on
the Internet.
Otus Chambers
train movement testimony of April 1964 is why did the WC publish it? Why
did the WC publish the questions asked of some called to testimony from
the DPD audio tape transcript about a stopped train on one of the
overpasses & police searching for someone reportedly hiding in a boxcar.
Why was that published? Clearly, something was happening with at least one
train during or in the aftermath of the assassination.
Here's my opinion: The friction between Hoover & some of the WC
commissioners & staff is well documented in several books. The
commissioners complaining about Hoover leaking info to the press &
thwarting the WC's investigation efforts is well documented.
I believe J.C. White's testimony was purposely published in the WC
Hearings volume for Hoover to deal with after the WC closed shop. Possibly
after LBJ was no longer President. Of the 3 entities (WC, LBJ & Hoover),
Hoover had the longest apparent shelf life. I believe it is a small clue
left in the report to alert the public that the WC was diverted away from
some areas they were attempting to investigate by Hoover. leaving J.C.
White's testimony in the report was the WC's way of shooting Hoover the
bird IMHO.
For those with a CT mind, it doesn't take much to suspect train
involvement in the assassination of JFK, either in Dealey Plaza or a
backup plan for the train trestle bridge JFK was driven under immediately
after his limo departed the triple underpass tunnel. The seeds for such a
scenario were published in the WC & have been there for over a half
century. It surprised me that Oliver Stone didn't pick up on it in his
1991 movie. I expect some resourceful author will publish another CT
theory book sometime in the future about the Union Terminal Company
trains.
David Von Pein & others like him will have new partners to dance with on
the Internet.
Otus Chambers
David Von Pein
Jun 17, 2017, 7:45:59 PM6/17/17
to
>
Whether or not the PUBLIC (i.e., PEDESTRIANS) would be allowed on the
overpasses or not has got *nothing* to do with whether TRAINS could be on
the bridges during the motorcade. Once more, Marsh leaps to his keyboard
before thinking.
Anthony Marsh
Jun 18, 2017, 2:50:04 PM6/18/17
to
my web site the way you let him keep claiming that I downloaded all my
files from other web sites? You need to train your minions better.
> .John
> -----------------------
> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
>
Anthony Marsh
Jun 18, 2017, 2:51:22 PM6/18/17
to
On 6/17/2017 1:53 PM, David Von Pein wrote:
> On Friday, June 16, 2017 at 11:15:08 PM UTC-4, Anthony Marsh wrote:
>> On 6/15/2017 6:54 PM, otu...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> Some additional questions for David Von Pein:
>>>
>>> Show is in the SS re-enactment film where the train DPD Officer J.C. White
>>> testified to the WC in April, 1964 was travelling across the triple
>>> underpass when the attack on JFK & JBC occurred? Keep in mind, the
>>> evidence that such a train movement occurred is published in Volume 6 of
>>> the WC Hearings. That's official Government evidence. Where is it in the
>>> SS re-enactment film & why is it missing?
>>>
>>
>> I'm still not sure what you are babbling about.
>
> I have to agree with Tony (for once). I don't have any idea what Otus'
> point is either. It's clear as can be that Officer White was dead wrong
> about the "noisy train". There was no train on the bridge at 12:30 PM when
> JFK was passing underneath that bridge.
>
> So (I guess) Otus must think the Bell film AND the Paschall film AND the
> Altgens photo are all fake (somehow). Crazy.
>
Well, he is not man enough (or woman enough) to tell us where he is
> On Friday, June 16, 2017 at 11:15:08 PM UTC-4, Anthony Marsh wrote:
>> On 6/15/2017 6:54 PM, otu...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> Some additional questions for David Von Pein:
>>>
>>> Show is in the SS re-enactment film where the train DPD Officer J.C. White
>>> testified to the WC in April, 1964 was travelling across the triple
>>> underpass when the attack on JFK & JBC occurred? Keep in mind, the
>>> evidence that such a train movement occurred is published in Volume 6 of
>>> the WC Hearings. That's official Government evidence. Where is it in the
>>> SS re-enactment film & why is it missing?
>>>
>>
>> I'm still not sure what you are babbling about.
>
> I have to agree with Tony (for once). I don't have any idea what Otus'
> point is either. It's clear as can be that Officer White was dead wrong
> about the "noisy train". There was no train on the bridge at 12:30 PM when
> JFK was passing underneath that bridge.
>
> So (I guess) Otus must think the Bell film AND the Paschall film AND the
> Altgens photo are all fake (somehow). Crazy.
>
getting this crap from, but I suspect it comes from some kook web site
written by a kook who is indeed an alterationist.
Anthony Marsh
Jun 18, 2017, 2:51:43 PM6/18/17
to
On 6/17/2017 1:52 PM, quan...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Friday, June 16, 2017 at 11:45:01 AM UTC+9:30, Anthony Marsh wrote:
>> On 6/14/2017 8:48 PM, otu...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> Response to David Von Pein to the garbage he posted above^^^
>>>
>>> Show us in your WC Bible where after publishing DPD Officer J.C. White's
>>> testimony (volume 6 of hearings)that a noisy freight train passing across
>>> the triple underpass railroad bridge obscured his view of the ambush of
>>> JFK, as well as hearing the gunfire, the WC followed up that testimony
>>> either as its own fact-finding body or assisted by Hoover's FBI.
>>>
>>
>> Why are you asking the cover-up? That was debunked a long time ago. You
>> can read through the old messages. They may not even be familiar with
>> those witnesses. The Altgens 7 shows no train, as well as the Paschall
>> film. Maybe only one or two trains passed about noon.
>>
>
> Correct,there was NO train on the overpass during the assassination
> Timeline.
>
> Stabilized Bell GIF
>
> http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/a585/quaneeri2/49fc14b8-5fb0-49ac-9f63-739c058dde9f.gif
>
> Had there been a train on the overpass during the assassination Timeline
> it would have been very obvious to everyone standing in Dealey Plaza.
>
> This is how a train looks when crossing the overpass.
>
> http://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/dec27%5E01b_underpass.jpg
>
Thanks. Is that from about 4:30 on 11.22.63?
> On Friday, June 16, 2017 at 11:45:01 AM UTC+9:30, Anthony Marsh wrote:
>> On 6/14/2017 8:48 PM, otu...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> Response to David Von Pein to the garbage he posted above^^^
>>>
>>> Show us in your WC Bible where after publishing DPD Officer J.C. White's
>>> testimony (volume 6 of hearings)that a noisy freight train passing across
>>> the triple underpass railroad bridge obscured his view of the ambush of
>>> JFK, as well as hearing the gunfire, the WC followed up that testimony
>>> either as its own fact-finding body or assisted by Hoover's FBI.
>>>
>>
>> Why are you asking the cover-up? That was debunked a long time ago. You
>> can read through the old messages. They may not even be familiar with
>> those witnesses. The Altgens 7 shows no train, as well as the Paschall
>> film. Maybe only one or two trains passed about noon.
>>
>
> Correct,there was NO train on the overpass during the assassination
> Timeline.
>
> Stabilized Bell GIF
>
> http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/a585/quaneeri2/49fc14b8-5fb0-49ac-9f63-739c058dde9f.gif
>
> Had there been a train on the overpass during the assassination Timeline
> it would have been very obvious to everyone standing in Dealey Plaza.
>
> This is how a train looks when crossing the overpass.
>
> http://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/dec27%5E01b_underpass.jpg
>
Or from 11.27.63?
Do you know what the M K T stands for? I think he even wanted to know
who owned the trains.
stevemg...@yahoo.com
Jun 19, 2017, 8:17:21 AM6/19/17
to
http://www.railpictures.net/images/d2/2/4/0/1240.1421033186.jpg
otu...@gmail.com
Jun 21, 2017, 10:51:57 AM6/21/17
to
Stevemg is correct. There were 7 more railroad companies that also ran
their trains across the triple underpass moving passengers, cargo,
supplies, raw materials, explosives, chemicals, food, cars & trucks for
sale, hazardous toxins, etc.
The comments I made to the group are addressed to everyone, not just David
Von Pein. Those just starting their interest in the JFK ambush & those
that think they know everything there is to know. I made them in the
spirit of little Johnny in 2017 giving his class a speech on the ambush of
JFK over a half century ago.
In his presentation, Johnny tells his class that JFK was driven under a
railroad bridge that a police officer testified to the WC had a noisy
freight train traveling across it when JFK & JBC were shot. It was so
noisy, the officer didn't hear any gunshots. Johnny shows the class Vol 6
of the WC Hearings & lets them read the officer's testimony.
The class responds with a flood of questions. Some of them, I presented
here. Questions like:
-How many trains moved across the triple underpass the morning & afternoon
of the JFK ambush?
-Who owned the trains?
-What were they transporting?
-Why wasn't the train the officer testified to the WC was passing him on
the triple underpass bridge stopped before JFK's motorcade arrived?
-What kind of schedule did the triple overpass trains adhere to on a daily
basis & also on Nov 22, 1963?
-What did the newspapers, TV, FBI & WC determine the witnesses (including
police responders) had experienced before, during & after the ambush in
regards to train activity in Dealey Plaza?
Time is money to a railroad company. Like it's younger brother, the
airline industry, the company loses money when it's equipment sits idle
(be it a train or a jet airliner).
Answers to those simple questions (and more) should be easily found in the
vast vault of material David Von Pein has provided the global public.
Besides that, there's been a multitude of government investigations that
provide answers to some questions. Do those report provide answers to
these simple train questions?
I saw a YouTube video several weeks ago where someone named over a dozen
still living Dealey Plaza witnesses that have been interviewed numerous
times (particularly the 6th Floor Museum)that have never been asked on
camera if they saw or heard a train crossing the triple underpass before,
during or after the ambush of JFK. Not once were these people asked that
very basic, simple question. Their names include: Mary Moorman Krahmer,
Linda & Rosemary Willis, Buell Frazier, Eugene Boone, Winston Lawson, Dan
Rather, Hugh Aynesworth, Pierce Allman, Tony Foster.
Each day these witnesses are not competently asked about their experiences
when JFK was murdered, the farther away the truth of the history of the
Dealey Plaza slips away from the global public (alive now & soon to be
born). Those striving to see that history distorted are as despicable as
it gets IMHO.
Otus Chambers
their trains across the triple underpass moving passengers, cargo,
supplies, raw materials, explosives, chemicals, food, cars & trucks for
sale, hazardous toxins, etc.
The comments I made to the group are addressed to everyone, not just David
Von Pein. Those just starting their interest in the JFK ambush & those
that think they know everything there is to know. I made them in the
spirit of little Johnny in 2017 giving his class a speech on the ambush of
JFK over a half century ago.
In his presentation, Johnny tells his class that JFK was driven under a
railroad bridge that a police officer testified to the WC had a noisy
freight train traveling across it when JFK & JBC were shot. It was so
noisy, the officer didn't hear any gunshots. Johnny shows the class Vol 6
of the WC Hearings & lets them read the officer's testimony.
The class responds with a flood of questions. Some of them, I presented
here. Questions like:
-How many trains moved across the triple underpass the morning & afternoon
of the JFK ambush?
-Who owned the trains?
-What were they transporting?
-Why wasn't the train the officer testified to the WC was passing him on
the triple underpass bridge stopped before JFK's motorcade arrived?
-What kind of schedule did the triple overpass trains adhere to on a daily
basis & also on Nov 22, 1963?
-What did the newspapers, TV, FBI & WC determine the witnesses (including
police responders) had experienced before, during & after the ambush in
regards to train activity in Dealey Plaza?
Time is money to a railroad company. Like it's younger brother, the
airline industry, the company loses money when it's equipment sits idle
(be it a train or a jet airliner).
Answers to those simple questions (and more) should be easily found in the
vast vault of material David Von Pein has provided the global public.
Besides that, there's been a multitude of government investigations that
provide answers to some questions. Do those report provide answers to
these simple train questions?
I saw a YouTube video several weeks ago where someone named over a dozen
still living Dealey Plaza witnesses that have been interviewed numerous
times (particularly the 6th Floor Museum)that have never been asked on
camera if they saw or heard a train crossing the triple underpass before,
during or after the ambush of JFK. Not once were these people asked that
very basic, simple question. Their names include: Mary Moorman Krahmer,
Linda & Rosemary Willis, Buell Frazier, Eugene Boone, Winston Lawson, Dan
Rather, Hugh Aynesworth, Pierce Allman, Tony Foster.
Each day these witnesses are not competently asked about their experiences
when JFK was murdered, the farther away the truth of the history of the
Dealey Plaza slips away from the global public (alive now & soon to be
born). Those striving to see that history distorted are as despicable as
it gets IMHO.
Otus Chambers
otu...@gmail.com
Jun 21, 2017, 10:52:35 AM6/21/17
to
Here's a couple more names of living Dealey Plaza witnesses that have
never been asked on camera if they saw or heard a train passing over the
triple underpass when JFK & JBC were shot:
Bill & Gayle Newman
Amos Euins
Jeff Franzen
?? (the girl filmed standing on the reflecting pool block in the Hughes
& Bell films)
Patsy Paschall (not sure if she's still alive)
That simple question slipped by Walter Cronkite, Dan Rather, Josiah
Thompson & Mark Lane. Lane & Thompson both interviewee S.M. Holland
without asking his that question; Lane failed to ask Lee Bowers that
question.
S.M. Holland gave us the names of around a dozen railroad workers in his
WC testimony. The WC failed to call any of them to testify.
Otus Chambers
never been asked on camera if they saw or heard a train passing over the
triple underpass when JFK & JBC were shot:
Bill & Gayle Newman
Amos Euins
Jeff Franzen
?? (the girl filmed standing on the reflecting pool block in the Hughes
& Bell films)
Patsy Paschall (not sure if she's still alive)
That simple question slipped by Walter Cronkite, Dan Rather, Josiah
Thompson & Mark Lane. Lane & Thompson both interviewee S.M. Holland
without asking his that question; Lane failed to ask Lee Bowers that
question.
S.M. Holland gave us the names of around a dozen railroad workers in his
WC testimony. The WC failed to call any of them to testify.
Otus Chambers
Anthony Marsh
Jun 21, 2017, 6:00:42 PM6/21/17
to
Never rely on witnesses. This is not a he said, she said.
The Truth is not a popularity poll.
We don't vote on whether JFK was killed or not.
Rely on physical evidence. All films and photos show that there was no
train on the overpass during the assassination.
I don't care about the day before or the day after.
Stick to the facts.
Anthony Marsh
Jun 21, 2017, 6:05:58 PM6/21/17
to
On 6/21/2017 10:51 AM, otu...@gmail.com wrote:
> Stevemg is correct. There were 7 more railroad companies that also ran
> their trains across the triple underpass moving passengers, cargo,
> supplies, raw materials, explosives, chemicals, food, cars & trucks for
> sale, hazardous toxins, etc.
>
> The comments I made to the group are addressed to everyone, not just David
> Von Pein. Those just starting their interest in the JFK ambush & those
Yes, that's the way a thread is supposed to work.
> Stevemg is correct. There were 7 more railroad companies that also ran
> their trains across the triple underpass moving passengers, cargo,
> supplies, raw materials, explosives, chemicals, food, cars & trucks for
> sale, hazardous toxins, etc.
>
> The comments I made to the group are addressed to everyone, not just David
> Von Pein. Those just starting their interest in the JFK ambush & those
Just be aware of the fact that DVP will snip out and repost bits from
this newsgroup and put them on his own website to misrepresent the debate.
> that think they know everything there is to know. I made them in the
> spirit of little Johnny in 2017 giving his class a speech on the ambush of
> JFK over a half century ago.
>
> In his presentation, Johnny tells his class that JFK was driven under a
> railroad bridge that a police officer testified to the WC had a noisy
> freight train traveling across it when JFK & JBC were shot. It was so
> noisy, the officer didn't hear any gunshots. Johnny shows the class Vol 6
> of the WC Hearings & lets them read the officer's testimony.
>
When I gave my lecture to Ken Rahn's class I SHOWED them the evidence. I
also drew things on the chalkboard to explain things they didn't
understand. In one case I had to draw a chalk line on the board to show
them the difference between ABOVE and BELOW. 22 out os 23 students
correctly identified the dot which was ABOVE the line. Only one student
did not understand the difference bewteen ABOVE and BELOW. She was the
WC defender who kept reminding me that the WC was 100% correct.
When I gave my lecture to the MIT professors I SHOWED them all the
Moorman photo from Four Days. I asked them to look at the fence and tell
me if they could see ANYTHING above the top of the fence.
13 said they could, but they didn't know what it was. Maybe a bush or
something. One refused to look and she said there was nothing above the
fence and no shooter there. She was the CIA agent and she had been
instructed to deny everything I said.
> The class responds with a flood of questions. Some of them, I presented
> here. Questions like:
>
> -How many trains moved across the triple underpass the morning & afternoon
> of the JFK ambush?
> -Who owned the trains?
> -What were they transporting?
> -Why wasn't the train the officer testified to the WC was passing him on
> the triple underpass bridge stopped before JFK's motorcade arrived?
> -What kind of schedule did the triple overpass trains adhere to on a daily
> basis & also on Nov 22, 1963?
> -What did the newspapers, TV, FBI & WC determine the witnesses (including
> police responders) had experienced before, during & after the ambush in
> regards to train activity in Dealey Plaza?
>
ask them. How many asked if aliens were there?
> Time is money to a railroad company. Like it's younger brother, the
> airline industry, the company loses money when it's equipment sits idle
> (be it a train or a jet airliner).
>
or unload.
> Answers to those simple questions (and more) should be easily found in the
> vast vault of material David Von Pein has provided the global public.
> Besides that, there's been a multitude of government investigations that
> provide answers to some questions. Do those report provide answers to
> these simple train questions?
>
knew to look for.
> I saw a YouTube video several weeks ago where someone named over a dozen
> still living Dealey Plaza witnesses that have been interviewed numerous
> times (particularly the 6th Floor Museum)that have never been asked on
> camera if they saw or heard a train crossing the triple underpass before,
> during or after the ambush of JFK. Not once were these people asked that
> very basic, simple question. Their names include: Mary Moorman Krahmer,
> Linda & Rosemary Willis, Buell Frazier, Eugene Boone, Winston Lawson, Dan
> Rather, Hugh Aynesworth, Pierce Allman, Tony Foster.
>
> Each day these witnesses are not competently asked about their experiences
> when JFK was murdered, the farther away the truth of the history of the
are not allowed to talk.
> Dealey Plaza slips away from the global public (alive now & soon to be
> born). Those striving to see that history distorted are as despicable as
> it gets IMHO.
>
ancient history so that no one cares.
> Otus Chambers
>
>
David Von Pein
Jun 21, 2017, 8:52:33 PM6/21/17
to
On Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 10:52:35 AM UTC-4, otu...@gmail.com wrote:
> Here's a couple more names of living Dealey Plaza witnesses that have
> never been asked on camera if they saw or heard a train passing over the
> triple underpass when JFK & JBC were shot:
>
Why in the world would any interviewer feel the need to ask *any* witness
> Here's a couple more names of living Dealey Plaza witnesses that have
> never been asked on camera if they saw or heard a train passing over the
> triple underpass when JFK & JBC were shot:
>
such a question? And the reason nobody would feel the need to ask any
witness such a question is because the photographs below prove---for all
time!---that regardless of what the witnesses' answers would be to such a
"Was There A Train On The Overpass?" question (and regardless of Officer
J.C. White's very strange testimony), there definitely WAS NO TRAIN atop
the Triple Underpass in Dallas' Dealey Plaza when President Kennedy's car
was on Elm Street on 11/22/63....
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_6kYzhJGqq2M/TJa_33_avoI/AAAAAAAAFYE/Rg2fofVn0nU/s2500/AltgensUnderpassPhoto.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-X26OpAHBGAU/UBmWjgKwMwI/AAAAAAAAGJY/AacrpAHdjFE/s2500/November-22-1963-JFKs-Car-Is-Seen-West-Of-The-Triple-Underpass-Just-After-Assassination.jpg
Do you think there was an INVISIBLE noisy train on the bridge at 12:30 PM,
Otus? If not, then *what exactly is your point?*
I still can't figure out why you think this "train" subject is the
slightest bit important (given the photographic and film proof that shows
there was no train on the overpass at the time of the JFK shooting).
Getting back to the topic of this thread now....
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2013/02/1964-secret-service-film.html
Anthony Marsh
Jun 22, 2017, 7:07:15 PM6/22/17
to
On 6/21/2017 8:52 PM, David Von Pein wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 10:52:35 AM UTC-4, otu...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Here's a couple more names of living Dealey Plaza witnesses that have
>> never been asked on camera if they saw or heard a train passing over the
>> triple underpass when JFK & JBC were shot:
>>
>
> Why in the world would any interviewer feel the need to ask *any* witness
> such a question? And the reason nobody would feel the need to ask any
> witness such a question is because the photographs below prove---for all
> time!---that regardless of what the witnesses' answers would be to such a
> "Was There A Train On The Overpass?" question (and regardless of Officer
> J.C. White's very strange testimony), there definitely WAS NO TRAIN atop
> the Triple Underpass in Dallas' Dealey Plaza when President Kennedy's car
> was on Elm Street on 11/22/63....
>
> http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_6kYzhJGqq2M/TJa_33_avoI/AAAAAAAAFYE/Rg2fofVn0nU/s2500/AltgensUnderpassPhoto.jpg
>
> http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-X26OpAHBGAU/UBmWjgKwMwI/AAAAAAAAGJY/AacrpAHdjFE/s2500/November-22-1963-JFKs-Car-Is-Seen-West-Of-The-Triple-Underpass-Just-After-Assassination.jpg
>
> Do you think there was an INVISIBLE noisy train on the bridge at 12:30 PM,
> Otus? If not, then *what exactly is your point?*
>
Oh, goody. You're so jealous that now you're going to try to outkook the
> On Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 10:52:35 AM UTC-4, otu...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Here's a couple more names of living Dealey Plaza witnesses that have
>> never been asked on camera if they saw or heard a train passing over the
>> triple underpass when JFK & JBC were shot:
>>
>
> Why in the world would any interviewer feel the need to ask *any* witness
> such a question? And the reason nobody would feel the need to ask any
> witness such a question is because the photographs below prove---for all
> time!---that regardless of what the witnesses' answers would be to such a
> "Was There A Train On The Overpass?" question (and regardless of Officer
> J.C. White's very strange testimony), there definitely WAS NO TRAIN atop
> the Triple Underpass in Dallas' Dealey Plaza when President Kennedy's car
> was on Elm Street on 11/22/63....
>
> http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_6kYzhJGqq2M/TJa_33_avoI/AAAAAAAAFYE/Rg2fofVn0nU/s2500/AltgensUnderpassPhoto.jpg
>
> http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-X26OpAHBGAU/UBmWjgKwMwI/AAAAAAAAGJY/AacrpAHdjFE/s2500/November-22-1963-JFKs-Car-Is-Seen-West-Of-The-Triple-Underpass-Just-After-Assassination.jpg
>
> Do you think there was an INVISIBLE noisy train on the bridge at 12:30 PM,
> Otus? If not, then *what exactly is your point?*
>
kooks. Is this a contest? Can anyone play or is it just for the cover-up?
> I still can't figure out why you think this "train" subject is the
> slightest bit important (given the photographic and film proof that shows
> there was no train on the overpass at the time of the JFK shooting).
>
David Von Pein
Jun 22, 2017, 7:36:20 PM6/22/17
to
up again and again in the various programs and documentaries I have
archived at my site....
http://dvp-video-audio-archive.blogspot.com/2012/03/index.html
Won't you, Tony?
Anthony Marsh
Jun 23, 2017, 11:06:52 PM6/23/17
to
day. You just can't answer my questions because you are not honest and I
catch you being dishonest.
OHLeeRedux
Jun 24, 2017, 7:39:52 PM6/24/17
to
Anthony Marsh
- show quoted text -
- show quoted text -
Ignore them? How could I possible ignore them? I have to attack them every
day. You just can't answer my questions because you are not honest and I
catch you being dishonest.
Irony alert!
day. You just can't answer my questions because you are not honest and I
catch you being dishonest.
David Von Pein
Jun 24, 2017, 7:41:24 PM6/24/17
to
Anthony Marsh
Jun 26, 2017, 2:49:30 PM6/26/17
to
Oh wait, maybe you are McAdams. Never mind.
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