List of over 40 people that saw the 'large hole' in the BOH of JFK -

[mainframetech]

This is the list of 'over 40' people that I have mentioned now and then
that saw the 'large hole' in the BOH of JFK. Claviger

has accused me of getting the idea from some website somewhere, while I
have gotten the information from only the most reputable places, like
mostly from the WC, HSCA or ARRB.

As of this date the list is not finished, but I will fill it in as time
allows. In the meantime, whatever few are missing from the list, you can
consider that I will now count the people that witnessed the autopsy.
The HSCA lied about them and said that they all saw a small bullet hole in
the BOH, but that was found to be false and subsequent interviews of
many of those people showed that they mostly agreed with those that saw
the 'large hole' on the BOH. That puts the count way over 40.

There are many references to a photo that has a montage of people on it. The reason is that the people use their hand to

locate the 'gaping hole' in the BOH.

1. James Jenkins - lab assistant at Bethesda - testimony to HSCA
"Jenkins does not recall a small hole in the head as drawn on the
descriptive sheet; he said that the big hole would have
covered the area where the little hole was drawn on the sheet."
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=329&relPageId=12

&&&&&&&&

2. Dennis David 1st class petty officer - Bethesda. He was shown a film
by LCDR Pitzer that showed the back of JFK's head while on the morgue
table and before any cutting had begun. It was clearly the Bethesda
morgue. He said it showed a 'gaping wound' in the back of the
president's head and that the top of the head looked intact.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=708&relPageId=4

&&&&&&&&

3. Phillip Willis - amateur photographer. Was in Dealey Plaza watching
t he motorcade when JFK was hit. He said "It took the back of his head
off." From Montage halfway down at:

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?topic=3930.0

&&&&&&&&

4. Ed Hoffman - deaf/mute watching from overpass. He said "The rear of
his head was gone, blasted outward."

From Montage halfway down at:
http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?topic=3930.0

&&&&&&&&

5. Dr. Robert McClelland - physician in ER at Parkland hospital. Said
"It was in the right back part of his head--very large...a portion of the
cerebellum fell out on the table while we were doing the tracheotomy."

From Montage halfway down at:
http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?topic=3930.0

&&&&&&&&

6. Dr. Charles Carrico - Physician at Parkland ER. Said "There was a
large--quite a large--defect about here (pointing) on his skull. See
photo where he shows the area with his hand [BOH slightly right].

From Montage halfway down at:

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?topic=3930.0

&&&&&&&&

7. Dr. Charles Crenshaw - Physician at Parkland hospital ER. Said "The
wound was the size of a baseball." Demonstrates with hand on the right
rear of his head (see photo). From Montage halfway down at:

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?topic=3930.0

&&&&&&&&

8. Nurse Audrey Bell - Parkland OR supervisor. Said "There was a massive
wound at the back of his head." See [photo.

From Montage halfway down at:
http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?topic=3930.0

&&&&&&&&

9. Frank O'Neill - FBI agent said "...a massive wound in the right rear."
See photo:
From Montage halfway down at:
http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?topic=3930.0

&&&&&&&&

10. Jerrol Custer - Bethesda Navy X-ray technician. Said: "From the top
of his head to almost the base of the skull, you could see where that part
was gone." See photo:

From Montage halfway down at:
http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?topic=3930.0

&&&&&&&&

11. Paul O'Connor - Bethesda Navy corpsman-morgue assistant. Said
"[There was] an open areas all the way across into the rear of the brain."
See photo:

From Montage halfway down at:
http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?topic=3930.0

&&&&&&&&

12. Floyd Reibe - Bethesda photographer at morgue. Said "...a big gaping
hole in the back of the head." See photo:

From Montage halfway down at:
http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?topic=3930.0

&&&&&&&&

13. Nurse Diana Hamilton Bowron - Parkland ER nurse. WC testimony:
"Mr. SPECTER - You saw the condition of his what?
Miss BOWRON - The back of his head.
Mr. SPECTER - And what was that condition?
Miss BOWRON - Well, it was very bad---you know.
Mr. SPECTER - How many holes did you see?
Miss BOWRON - I just saw one large hole.
Mr. SPECTER - Did you see a small bullet hole beneath that one large hole?
Miss BOWRON - No, sir. "

&&&&&&&&

14. KEMP CLARK, MD: Professor and Director of Neurological Surgery at
Parkland. Said during WC testimony:

"...in the occipital region of the skull... Through the head wound, blood
and brain were extruding... There was a large wound in the right
occipitoparietal region, from which profuse bleeding was occurring...
There was considerable loss of scalp and bone tissue. Both cerebral and
cerebellar tissue were extruding f rom the wound." (WC--CE#392)

&&&&&&&&

15. Dr. RICHARD BROOKS DULANY - Parkland hospital, said: " The wound was
on the back of his head. On the back side"

They lifted up the head and "the whole back-side was gone." (Groden R.,
Livingston, H., High Treason. 1989 New York,

Berkley Books, p.460.)

&&&&&&&&

16. Nurse PAT HUTTON - Parkland ER staff. While helping with
resuscitation efforts a physician asked her to apply a pressure dressing
to the head wound, she observed, however, that, "This was no use, however,
because of the massive opening in the back of the head."

http://www.paulseaton.com/jfk/boh/parkland_boh/parkland_wound.htm

&&&&&&&&

17. Dr. MARION THOMAS JENKINS Parkland staff. WC testimony "...a great
laceration on the right side of the head (temporal and occipital) (sic),
causing a great defect in the skull plate so that there was herniation and
laceration of great areas of the brain, even to the extent that the
cerebellum had protruded from the wound." (WC--Exhibit #392)

&&&&&&&&

18. Dr. RONALD COY JONES Parkland staff. WC testimony "He had a large
wound in the right posterior side of the head...

There was a large defect in the back side of the head as the President lay
on the cart with what appeared to be some brain hanging out of this wound
with multiple pieces of skull noted next with the brain and with a
tremendous amount of clot and blood." (WC-V6:53-54)

&&&&&&&&

19. Dr. MALCOLM PERRY Parkland staff said "I looked at the head wound
briefly by leaning over the table and noticed that the parietal occipital
head wound was largely avulsive and there was visible brain tissue in the
macard and some cerebellum seen..." (HSCA-V7:302-interview with Purdy
1-11-78.

&&&&&&&&

20. Dr. PAUL PETERS Parkland staff - WC testimony - "...I noticed that
the re was a large defect in the occiput...It seemed to me that in the
right occipitalparietal area that there was a large defect." (WC-V6:71)

&&&&&&&&

21. Tom Robinson mortician with Gawler's. At Bethesda after autopsy
enumerating head wounds, he "described a large, open head wound in the
back of the president's head, centrally located right between the ears,
where the bone was gone, as well as some scalp.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=711&relPageId=3

Robinson's drawing of the wound is here:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=350&relPageId=4

&&&&&&&&

22. Clinton Hill - Secret Service presidential detail. As kill shot rang
out Hill was on the limo and covering the Kennedys.

His WC testimony said "As I lay over the top of the back seat I noticed a
portion of the President's head on the right rear side was missing and he
was bleeding profusely. Part of his brain was gone. I saw a part of his
skull with hair on it lieing in the seat."

&&&&&&&&

23. Joe O'Donnell photographer. Spoke with Knudsen about photos of autopsy and saw head wound photo. Said "The back

of the head photograph(s) showed a hole in the back of the head, about 2" above the hairline, about the size of a

grapefruit; the hole clearly penetrated the skull and was very deep. Another one of the photographs showed a hole in the

forehead above the right eye which was a round wound about 3/8" in diameter which he interptreted as a gunshot."

"The second occasion occurred a few days later, when Knudsen showed him a second set of photograph(s) once again

about 12 ea 5" by 7" B&W prints. On this second occasion, the back-of-head photograph(s) was intact, and showed no hole

in the back of the head. Instead of a hole, he remembers seeing neatly combed hair which looked slightly wet, or damp in

appearance."
From:
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=753&relPageId=2

While the nutter contingent has done all it can to discredit O'Donnell, Knudsen's family (wife and 2 of his kids) went to

the ARRB and made corroborating statements as to the faking of some autopsy photos.

&&&&&&&&

24. Dr. Charles Baxter - Professor Of Surgery; Director Of Emergency Room. - Said "The right temporal and occipital bones

were missing and the brain was lying on the table".
http://www.jfklancer.com/ParklandDrs.html

&&&&&&&&

25. Dr. John Ebersole - Acting Chief of Radiology and head of the Radiology Division - Bethesda. Said "The back of the head

was missing...".
WC testimony.

&&&&&&&&

26. Saundra Key Spencer - Navy E-6 Photographer's Mate at Naval Photographic Center at Anacostia. ARRB testimony

summary. Spencer was given a set of autopsy photos that were completely diferent than the ones we are all familiar with.

They were cleaned up and showed the correct BOH wound. Most of her work was for the White House. Said: "She

remembers a wound in the back of the president's head Which she described as a "Blown out chunk" about 2 to 2.5 inches

wide located in about the center of the back of the president's head about 3 or 5 inches above the hairline at the back of his

head.

&&&&&&&&

27. James Sibert - FBI agent stayed with bronze casket and was at the autopsy. Gave ARRB testimony. Drawing of wound is

here:
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=719

Testimony about his drawing:
"Q. ...That is the drawing you made earlier today showing the size of the wound, which, by my very rough estimate, the

wound you drew seems much smaller.
A. Much smaller, yes, it's larger than that. I should have made that larger, but I'm not much of an artist.

&&&&&&&&

28. Francis C.O'Neill - FBI agent at autopsy. Gave ARRB testimony.
He stated that some of the autopsy pivctures he was shonw from the autopsy didn't look right to him, an weren't like what

he remembered. He said 'doctored' when speaking of the BOH.
"A. ...It would appear to me that there was a-more of a massive wound...".

&&&&&&&&

29. Dr. Gene Akin - Parklland hospital. WC testimony. Said "The back of the right occipitalparietal portion of his head was

shattered, with brain substance extruding."

&&&&&&&&

30. Jacqueline Kennedy - Wife of JFK - held JFK in her arms and had very close view of head wounds. Testimony of the

head wounds was suppressed in the WC. She said ""I was trying to hold his hair on. From the front there was nothing --
I suppose there must have been. But from the back you could see,
you know, you were trying to hold his hair on, and his skull on...". If she was trying to hold his hair and skull on at the back

or his head, then it was a big wound.
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/09/jackie-kennedy-testimony.html

&&&&&&&&

31. John Stringer - Photographer at Bethesda. ARRB deposition, where there was a phone conversation repeated:
LIFTON: Yeah. In other words, the main part of his head that was blasted away was in the occipital part of the skull?
STRINGER: Yes, the back part.
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=798&relPageId=17

&&&&&&&&

32. Jan Gail Rudnicki - Assistant to Boswell at Bethesda on night of autopsy. Interviewed by Flanagan for HSCA. Said: "the

back-right quadrant of the head was missing."
http://www.paulseaton.com/jfk/boh/beth/beth.htm

&&&&&&&&

33. James Metzler - Hospital Corpsman at Bethesda, helped put body from shipping casket to table. HSCA interview

4/21/78. "Metzler recalled a wound situated in the "right side of the head behind the right ear, extending down to the

center of the back of the skull."
http://www.paulseaton.com/jfk/boh/beth/beth.htm

&&&&&&&&

34. Roy Kellerman - Secret Service agent - rode in limousine in passenger seat. Gave WC testimony as follows:
"Mr. KELLERMAN. OK. This all transpired in the morgue of the Naval Hospital in Bethesda, sir. He had a large wound this

size.
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating a circle with your finger of the diameter of 5 inches; would that be approximately correct?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, circular; yes, on this part of the head.
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the rear portion of the head.
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. More to the right side of the head?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Right. This was removed.
Mr. SPECTER. When you say, "This was removed," what do you mean by this?
Mr. KELLERMAN. The skull part was removed."

&&&&&&&&

35. Aubrey Rike - Ambulance Driver - at Parkland hospital - interviewed by Vince Palamara on 11/22/97. Described the BOH

wound with right hand circling the back of his head about the size of a baseball:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dvbuv_eLISk

&&&&&&&&

36. Chester Boyers - Chief Petty Officer Bethesda - head of pathology dept. - helped during autopsy with various functions.

Interviewed for HSCA. "Concerning the wounds of President Kennedy, Mr. Boyers stated that there was a large wound to

the right side and towards the rear of the head."
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/pdf/md62.pdf

&&&&&&&&

37. Joseph Hagan - Gawler's embalming team - did their work at Bethesda after autopsy. Hagan was in charge of the team.

His ARRB interview said: "However, he did state that "all of this was open in the back", while holding his two hands about 6

inches away from his upper posterior skull, gesturing to the area between both of his own ears on the back of his head."

&&&&&&&&

38. Thornton Boswell - Bethesda prosector at autopsy - the record said "Q. When you say the left posterior, what do you

mean?

A. The left occipital area, and that wound extends to the right frontal area." An awfully large wound!

&&&&&&&&

39. Phyllis Hall - Parkland nurse - brought in to work in the ER when JFK brought in - Said in video "There was a huge hole in

head" while using her right hand to hold over head area:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zxgYrc7-Zs

&&&&&&&&

40. John Stringer - photographer - Bethesda. Worked around the autopsy. In interview with David Lifton on 8/26/72:

Lifton: Was the main damage to the skull on the top, or in the back?
Stringer: In the back.
Lifton: ...High In the back, or lower In the back?
Stringer: Oh, the occipital part in the back there (garbled) up above the neck.
Lifton: …In other words, the main part of his head that was blasted away was in the occipital part of the skull?
Stringer: Yes. the back part. [Tape played for Stringer in 1996, p78]

From:
http://www.history-matters.com/essays/jfkmed/TracesOfWitnessTampering/TracesOfWitnessTampering.htm

&&&&&&&&

[BT George]

On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 4:46:35 PM UTC-6, mainframetech wrote:
> This is the list of 'over 40' people that I have mentioned now and then
>
> that saw the 'large hole' in the BOH of JFK. Claviger
>
>
>
> has accused me of getting the idea from some website somewhere, while I
>
> have gotten the information from only the most reputable places, like
>
> mostly from the WC, HSCA or ARRB.
>
>
>
> As of this date the list is not finished, but I will fill it in as time
>
> allows. In the meantime, whatever few are missing from the list, you can
>
> consider that I will now count the people that witnessed the autopsy.
>
> The HSCA lied about them and said that they all saw a small bullet hole in
>

> the BOH, but that was found to be = false and subsequent interviews of

>
> many of those people showed that they mostly agreed with those that saw
>
> the 'large hole' on the BOH. That puts the count way over 40.
>
>
>
> There are many references to a photo that has a montage of people on it. The reason is that the people use their hand to
>
>
>
> locate the 'gaping hole' in the BOH.
>
>
>
> 1. James Jenkins - lab assistant at Bethesda - testimony to HSCA
>
> "Jenkins does not recall a small hole in the head as drawn on the
>
> descriptive sheet; he said that the big hole would have
>
> covered the area where the little hole was drawn on the sheet."
>
> http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=329&relPageId=12
>
>
>
> &&&&&&&&
>
>
>
> 2. Dennis David 1st class petty officer - Bethesda. He was shown a film
>
> by LCDR Pitzer that showed the back of JFK's head while on the morgue
>
> table and before any cutting had begun. It was clearly the Bethesda
>
> morgue. He said it showed a 'gaping wound' in the back of the
>
> president's head and that the top of the head looked intact.
>
>
>
> http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=708&relPageId=4
>
>
>
> &&&&&&&&
>
>
>
> 3. Phillip Willis - amateur photographer. Was in Dealey Plaza watching
>

> t= he motorcade when JFK was hit. He said "It took the back of his head

> cerebellar tissue were extruding f= rom the wound." (WC--CE#392)

> the= re was a large defect in the occiput...It seemed to me that in the

Chris,

As I indicated, I do not have time to go over all this stuff at once.
However, I spotted some obvious problems in your list already:

1) You have John Stringer listed and counted twice (#31 & 40).

2) You are citing NOT *sworn* testimony by him, but rather a taped phone
conversation played back for him during his ARRB deposition of his
comments to Lifton back in '72.

At *odds* with some of what he told Lifton, he then begins to give *sworn*
testimony refuting what he told Lifton earlier and affirming facts
generally in agreement with the official findings of a smaller entrance
wound in the back (occipital area) and that most of the missing bone was
in the parietal area.

How then can you list him as a large BOH witness, when his own *sworn*
testimony seems to refute that?

3) You list Francis O'neil as #9 as a BOH witness---best as I can
tell---based purely on non-*sworn* testimony. Yet in support of your own
theory on how the top of the head was damaged, you ignore his *sworn*
testimony to the ARRB that body of Kennedy arrived in the "Bronze Casket"
wrapped in a "sheet" with another bloody one wrapped around his head.

How is it determined by you that his non-sworn testimony is to be
believed, but his *sworn* testimony can be ignored?

4) Sibert #27, also repeats the general comments about the type of casket
and how JFK was wrapped in his *sworn* testimony.

Again, how do you determine it is appropriate to give such weight to
*sworn* testimony in one case, but not another?

BT George

[mainframetech]

On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 11:53:35 PM UTC-5, BT George wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 4:46:35 PM UTC-6, mainframetech wrote:
>

> > This is the list of 'over 40' people that I have mentioned now and then
>
> >
>
> > that saw the 'large hole' in the BOH of JFK. Claviger
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > has accused me of getting the idea from some website somewhere, while I
>
> >
>
> > have gotten the information from only the most reputable places, like
>
> >
>
> > mostly from the WC, HSCA or ARRB.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > As of this date the list is not finished, but I will fill it in as time
>
> >
>
> > allows. In the meantime, whatever few are missing from the list, you can
>
> >
>
> > consider that I will now count the people that witnessed the autopsy.
>
> >
>
> > The HSCA lied about them and said that they all saw a small bullet hole in
>
> >
>

> > the BOH, but that was found to be = false and subsequent interviews of

>
> >
>
> > many of those people showed that they mostly agreed with those that saw
>
> >
>
> > the 'large hole' on the BOH. That puts the count way over 40.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > There are many references to a photo that has a montage of people on it. The reason is that the people use their hand to
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > locate the 'gaping hole' in the BOH.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > 1. James Jenkins - lab assistant at Bethesda - testimony to HSCA
>
> >
>
> > "Jenkins does not recall a small hole in the head as drawn on the
>
> >
>
> > descriptive sheet; he said that the big hole would have
>
> >
>
> > covered the area where the little hole was drawn on the sheet."
>
> >
>
> > http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=329&relPageId=12
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > &&&&&&&&
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > 2. Dennis David 1st class petty officer - Bethesda. He was shown a film
>
> >
>
> > by LCDR Pitzer that showed the back of JFK's head while on the morgue
>
> >
>
> > table and before any cutting had begun. It was clearly the Bethesda
>
> >
>
> > morgue. He said it showed a 'gaping wound' in the back of the
>
> >
>
> > president's head and that the top of the head looked intact.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=708&relPageId=4
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > &&&&&&&&
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > 3. Phillip Willis - amateur photographer. Was in Dealey Plaza watching
>
> >
>

> > t= he motorcade when JFK was hit. He said "It took the back of his head

> > cerebellar tissue were extruding f= rom the wound." (WC--CE#392)

> > the= re was a large defect in the occiput...It seemed to me that in the

> Chris,
>
>
>
> As I indicated, I do not have time to go over all this stuff at once.
>
> However, I spotted some obvious problems in your list already:
>
>
>
> 1) You have John Stringer listed and counted twice (#31 & 40).
>
>

You are right and one of them has been removed.

>
> 2) You are citing NOT *sworn* testimony by him, but rather a taped phone
>
> conversation played back for him during his ARRB deposition of his
>
> comments to Lifton back in '72.
>

There are some cases of statements and not testimony, but there was no statement at the top that all was from sworn testimony. I use it where I can, and most places I do.

>
>
> At *odds* with some of what he told Lifton, he then begins to give *sworn*
>
> testimony refuting what he told Lifton earlier and affirming facts
>
> generally in agreement with the official findings of a smaller entrance
>
> wound in the back (occipital area) and that most of the missing bone was
>
> in the parietal area.
>
>
>
> How then can you list him as a large BOH witness, when his own *sworn*
>
> testimony seems to refute that?
>

He said that he had seen the 'large hole', then was convinced to say otherwise, as with others in the case that changed statements. Seymour Weitzman, for example.

>
>
> 3) You list Francis O'neil as #9 as a BOH witness---best as I can
>
> tell---based purely on non-*sworn* testimony. Yet in support of your own
>
> theory on how the top of the head was damaged, you ignore his *sworn*
>
> testimony to the ARRB that body of Kennedy arrived in the "Bronze Casket"
>
> wrapped in a "sheet" with another bloody one wrapped around his head.
>

The 2 things don't work together. O'Neill saying something about a wound has nothing to do with what casket JFK was in, as far as I know. First, Frank O'Neill was quoted in the montage spoken of at the beginning of the article. Here it is, and note O'Neill being quoted and placing his hand at the rear of his head, not the side, which was where later they tried to make the wound appear to be.
http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/8187/witnessesrearexitwoundk.jpg

Second, while the Sibert & O'Neill report doesn't specify, it's generally calculated from it that the arrival of the bronze casket at the main entrance (front) of the Bethesda facility was at 7:17pm. Testimony says that the Kennedy party that traveled with the naval ambulance with the Bronze casket came inside and rode up to the executive suite on the 17th floor. The ambulance then drove the casket around to the back of the facility. The situation was that the Bronze casket was empty and the body of JFK had been placed in a simple shipping casket at the airport. The people that saw to it were General Wehle and his aide, Richard Lipsey. Here is a short version of Lipsey's testimony:
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/HSCA_Medical_Interviews

You can look through Lipsey's testimony in transcript too, it's also online.

The switch having been made with the caskets, the bronze casket was sent to Bethesda in an ambulance with the Kennedy party, including the FBI and SS agents. The real casket with the body was sent by helicopters (the honor guard were carried too) and got to Bethesda much sooner that the empty Bronze casket. A Marine sgt. Roger Boyajian recorded the arrival time of the simple shipping casket as 6:35pm in his after action report, which is online. This is earlier than the time for the Bronze casket.

Sibert & O'Neill may or may not have known about the casket switch, supposedly to fool the media (that was the stated reason for the switch). But at some point at the morgue, they had to find that the body was NOT in the Bronze casket, but in the shipping casket. Given the timing, the body was already on the table and being worked on by Humes and Boswell. They had been ordered not to leave the body, yet they had, knowingly or not left it and followed an empty casket. I doubt they wanted to report that. But if it was known by them that the switch was done, then they wouldn't want to report on that either. Folks wouldn't ant to know that in the middle of the night and Jackie's grief and all the rest, the FBI ands SS were playing musical caskets with JFK's body.

Make note, the casket switch is in the sworn testimony of Richard Lipsey. The testimony of others at Bethesda back that up as to the body being in the shipping casket. Those that saw it in the Bronze casket at Bethesda may have seen it after Humes and Boswell put the body back in the Bronze casket after they had damaged the top of head. If you check the Sibert & O'Neill report, you see a note on page 3 that when the body was taken out and put on the table, it was noticed that "surgery of the head area, namely, in the top of the skull" had been done. They had thought that happened as a first step, when Humes and Boswell actually had been working earlier on that area and put the body back. The only other choice there is that the FBI and other agents there knew what was going on, that the body was being altered to match the scenario of the 'lone nut' and they all covered it up, which doesn't seem probable.

>
>
> How is it determined by you that his non-sworn testimony is to be
>
> believed, but his *sworn* testimony can be ignored?
>

He said what he was quoted as saying. If he later got on to the party line, that's another story. Others were also convinced to change their stories where it needed to match the scenario of the wacky WC 'lone nut' theory.

>
>
> 4) Sibert #27, also repeats the general comments about the type of casket
>
> and how JFK was wrapped in his *sworn* testimony.
>

That's dealt with in another thread and above. He may not have wanted to admit that he left the body of JFK after being ordered to stay with it. He followed the Kennedy family and the Bronze casket, which was empty. The idea that the casket switch was to fool the media seems silly when you look back on it. The media followed the family with Jackie and Bobby anyway, and they wouldn't have let them enter the morgue if they had followed the body. The marines were stationed at all access points to keep unauthorized people out. Of course, there had to be some excuse to get the body to Bethesda early for the prosectors to do the damage before anyone else arrived. They even kicked out the assistants as they were doing the deed to have privacy.

>
>
> Again, how do you determine it is appropriate to give such weight to
>
> *sworn* testimony in one case, but not another?
>

As noted above there are only a few cases where you've found that situation. I used search engines to find the information, and sometimes they found one and not the other case, but when I looked at the ones you pointed out, they were both cases where the person has spoken of the 'large hole' first, then later came along to the party line. I usually take the earlier statement, which is common investigative procedure. That is closer to the 'event'.

I know there is a lot above to wade through, and I'm sorry about that, but there were certain basics I had to cover to answer your questions. If it has generated more questions, just ask...:)

I have repaired the problem of the duplicate entry of Stringer, and we are back to a list of 39 names, and I continue to look for others that should be listed.

Chris

[BT George]

Good.

>
>
>
>
> >
>
> > 2) You are citing NOT *sworn* testimony by him, but rather a taped phone
>
> >
>
> > conversation played back for him during his ARRB deposition of his
>
> >
>
> > comments to Lifton back in '72.
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> There are some cases of statements and not testimony, but there was no statement at the top that all was from sworn testimony. I use it where I can, and most places I do.
>
>
>

See later comments.

>
>
>
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > At *odds* with some of what he told Lifton, he then begins to give *sworn*
>
> >
>
> > testimony refuting what he told Lifton earlier and affirming facts
>
> >
>
> > generally in agreement with the official findings of a smaller entrance
>
> >
>
> > wound in the back (occipital area) and that most of the missing bone was
>
> >
>
> > in the parietal area.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > How then can you list him as a large BOH witness, when his own *sworn*
>
> >
>
> > testimony seems to refute that?
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> He said that he had seen the 'large hole', then was convinced to say otherwise, as with others in the case that changed statements. Seymour Weitzman, for example.
>
>
>

Hmmm. That attitude makes me wonder about the wisdom of trying to follow down your testimony path. In some of your recent writings, you emphasize that the people you site are giving sworn testimony. In my mind you are implying that *sworn* testimony should generally be given more weight than something said not under oath.

However, upon closer scrutiny, it seems that you are kind of trying to have your cake and eat it too. That is, you want the oath to carry some weight when the witness says something that supports a conspiracy, but feel free to reject it flatly when it goes against one.

>
>
>
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > 3) You list Francis O'neil as #9 as a BOH witness---best as I can
>
> >
>
> > tell---based purely on non-*sworn* testimony. Yet in support of your own
>
> >
>
> > theory on how the top of the head was damaged, you ignore his *sworn*
>
> >
>
> > testimony to the ARRB that body of Kennedy arrived in the "Bronze Casket"
>
> >
>
> > wrapped in a "sheet" with another bloody one wrapped around his head.
>
> >
>
>
>
> The 2 things don't work together. O'Neill saying something about a wound has nothing to do with what casket JFK was in, as far as I know.

But what I am saying *does* work together. My point is really very simple. You are implying that the sworn nature of some of your witnesses testimony makes them more likely to be telling the truth. However, when it comes down to brass tacks, it seems that you are really just picking testimony you like based *solely* on whether it bolsters your ideas.

If a witness makes non-sworn statements friendly to your ideas, you are perfectly happy to embrace it, but when that *SAME* witness gives sworn testimony that contradicts your notions, you have no issue dismissing that those statements as lies. At the end of the day, you are trying to have it both ways when it comes to sworn testimony meaning anything.

First, Frank O'Neill was quoted in the montage spoken of at the beginning of the article. Here it is, and note O'Neill being quoted and placing his hand at the rear of his head, not the side, which was where later they tried to make the wound appear to be.
>
> http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/8187/witnessesrearexitwoundk.jpg
>
>
>
> Second, while the Sibert & O'Neill report doesn't specify, it's generally calculated from it that the arrival of the bronze casket at the main entrance (front) of the Bethesda facility was at 7:17pm. Testimony says that the Kennedy party that traveled with the naval ambulance with the Bronze casket came inside and rode up to the executive suite on the 17th floor. The ambulance then drove the casket around to the back of the facility. The situation was that the Bronze casket was empty and the body of JFK had been placed in a simple shipping casket at the airport. The people that saw to it were General Wehle and his aide, Richard Lipsey. Here is a short version of Lipsey's testimony:
>
> http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/HSCA_Medical_Interviews
>
>
>
> You can look through Lipsey's testimony in transcript too, it's also online.
>
>
>
> The switch having been made with the caskets, the bronze casket was sent to Bethesda in an ambulance with the Kennedy party, including the FBI and SS agents. The real casket with the body was sent by helicopters (the honor guard were carried too) and got to Bethesda much sooner that the empty Bronze casket. A Marine sgt. Roger Boyajian recorded the arrival time of the simple shipping casket as 6:35pm in his after action report, which is online. This is earlier than the time for the Bronze casket.
>
>

Has it ever occured to you that Boyajian, who wrote the time down the time 4 days later and described the situation as "hectic" in his discussion with Horne, could have simply gotten the time off by about 30 minutes? AFAIC see, his statments to Horne do no indicate what kind of casket he saw or where he saw it arrive:

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/pdf/md236.pdf

Also, even by helicopter, the timing of the casket arriving only 20 minutes after AF1 landed seems mighty tight. Do you have any witnesses as to what time it allegedly took off with JFK's body?

>
> Sibert & O'Neill may or may not have known about the casket switch, supposedly to fool the media (that was the stated reason for the switch). But at some point at the morgue, they had to find that the body was NOT in the Bronze casket, but in the shipping casket. Given the timing, the body was already on the table and being worked on by Humes and Boswell. They had been ordered not to leave the body, yet they had, knowingly or not left it and followed an empty casket. I doubt they wanted to report that. But if it was known by them that the switch was done, then they wouldn't want to report on that either. Folks wouldn't ant to know that in the middle of the night and Jackie's grief and all the rest, the FBI ands SS were playing musical caskets with JFK's body.
>
>

Yep. More persons willing to lie uder oath that they saw the body taken out of the bronze casket, when in fact they could not have seen any such thing.

>
> Make note, the casket switch is in the sworn testimony of Richard Lipsey. The testimony of others at Bethesda back that up as to the body being in the shipping casket. Those that saw it in the Bronze casket at Bethesda may have seen it after Humes and Boswell put the body back in the Bronze casket after they had damaged the top of head. If you check the Sibert & O'Neill report, you see a note on page 3 that when the body was taken out and put on the table, it was noticed that "surgery of the head area, namely, in the top of the skull" had been done. They had thought that happened as a first step, when Humes and Boswell actually had been working earlier on that area and put the body back. The only other choice there is that the FBI and other agents there knew what was going on, that the body was being altered to match the scenario of the 'lone nut' and they all covered it up, which doesn't seem probable.
>
>
>

Yet the surgery comment has been explained by Sibert as referring to the neck wound. See about the 9:15 mark of the following:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/07/interview-with-james-sibert.html

>
>
>
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > How is it determined by you that his non-sworn testimony is to be
>
> >
>
> > believed, but his *sworn* testimony can be ignored?
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> He said what he was quoted as saying. If he later got on to the party line, that's another story. Others were also convinced to change their stories where it needed to match the scenario of the wacky WC 'lone nut' theory.
>
>
>

Yep. Sworn testimony only matter in on direction.

>
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > 4) Sibert #27, also repeats the general comments about the type of casket
>
> >
>
> > and how JFK was wrapped in his *sworn* testimony.
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> That's dealt with in another thread and above. He may not have wanted to admit that he left the body of JFK after being ordered to stay with it. He followed the Kennedy family and the Bronze casket, which was empty. The idea that the casket switch was to fool the media seems silly when you look back on it. The media followed the family with Jackie and Bobby anyway, and they wouldn't have let them enter the morgue if they had followed the body. The marines were stationed at all access points to keep unauthorized people out. Of course, there had to be some excuse to get the body to Bethesda early for the prosectors to do the damage before anyone else arrived. They even kicked out the assistants as they were doing the deed to have privacy.
>
>
>

I've seen a different explanation as to the helicopter's purpose, but will need to do more research before commenting.

However, one point you have made repeatedly is how "highly unsual" it was
for Humes or Boswell to have done some of the pre-autopsy prep-work they
would normally leave to underlings. May I take this opportunity to point
out that having the youthful and shockingly slain President of the United
States wheeled into your morgue on short notice for you to autopsy without
having a background as a *forensic* pathologist, is itself, a *HIGHLY*
unusual situation.

Given that context, is it *really* so strange that these men would get
involved in a "hands-on" way that they would never do if it were "Joe
Stiff" being wheeled in after having died from a heart attack?

>
>
>
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Again, how do you determine it is appropriate to give such weight to
>
> >
>
> > *sworn* testimony in one case, but not another?
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> As noted above there are only a few cases where you've found that situation.

Yes. But I've only looked at a few cases so far. Not a trajectory that
makes me assume that these will prove to be the last such situations.

I used search engines to find the information, and sometimes they found
one and not the other case, but when I looked at the ones you pointed out,
they were both cases where the person has spoken of the 'large hole'
first, then later came along to the party line. I usually take the
earlier statement, which is common investigative procedure. That is
closer to the 'event'.

>
>

So are you telling me that in each case among your witnesses where they
have rendered more than one version that I am going to find that it is the
*earlier* statement that are supportive of your theories? I would be
surprised if that were true, but I haven't carried this through further
yet.

>
> I know there is a lot above to wade through, and I'm sorry about that, but there were certain basics I had to cover to answer your questions. If it has generated more questions, just ask...:)
>
>

I am sure I will when I get 'round to looking at more.

>
> I have repaired the problem of the duplicate entry of Stringer, and we are back to a list of 39 names, and I continue to look for others that should be listed.
>
>

Yes I see.

BT George

[Lanny]

On Thursday, December 5, 2013 5:27:57 PM UTC-5, mainframetech wrote:

>
The situation was that the Bronze casket was empty and the body of JFK had been placed in a simple shipping casket at the airport. The people that saw to it were General Wehle and his aide, Richard Lipsey. Here is a short version of Lipsey's testimony:
>
> http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/HSCA_Medical_Interviews
>
>
>
> You can look through Lipsey's testimony in transcript too, it's also online.
>
>
>
> The switch having been made with the caskets, the bronze casket was sent to Bethesda in an ambulance with the Kennedy party, including the FBI and SS agents. The real casket with the body was sent by helicopters (the honor guard were carried too) and got to Bethesda much sooner that the empty Bronze casket. A Marine sgt. Roger Boyajian recorded the arrival time of the simple shipping casket as 6:35pm in his after action report, which is online. This is earlier than the time for the Bronze casket.
>
>
>
> Sibert & O'Neill may or may not have known about the casket switch, supposedly to fool the media (that was the stated reason for the switch). But at some point at the morgue, they had to find that the body was NOT in the Bronze casket, but in the shipping casket. Given the timing, the body was already on the table and being worked on by Humes and Boswell. They had been ordered not to leave the body, yet they had, knowingly or not left it and followed an empty casket. I doubt they wanted to report that. But if it was known by them that the switch was done, then they wouldn't want to report on that either. Folks wouldn't ant to know that in the middle of the night and Jackie's grief and all the rest, the FBI ands SS were playing musical caskets with JFK's body.
>
>
>
> Make note, the casket switch is in the sworn testimony of Richard Lipsey. The testimony of others at Bethesda back that up as to the body being in the shipping casket. Those that saw it in the Bronze casket at Bethesda may have seen it after Humes and Boswell put the body back in the Bronze casket after they had damaged the top of head. If you check the Sibert & O'Neill report, you see a note on page 3 that when the body was taken out and put on the table, it was noticed that "surgery of the head area, namely, in the top of the skull" had been done. They had thought that happened as a first step, when Humes and Boswell actually had been working earlier on that area and put the body back. The only other choice there is that the FBI and other agents there knew what was going on, that the body was being altered to match the scenario of the 'lone nut' and they all covered it up, which doesn't seem probable.
>

Nowhere in Lipsey’s HSCA interview does he state that President
Kennedy’s body was transferred from the bronze casket to a standard
shipping casket while in Air Force One at Andrews AFB or anywhere else.
To the contrary, on the very first page of the interview transcript whose
link you cited, he stated that JFK’s body was placed in a hearse and
DRIVEN to Bethesda while he (Lipsey), General Wehle and the honor guard
flew to Bethesda in a helicopter.

Q: I have a question. How did you go from when Air Force One landed? How
did you go from Andrews to Bethesda itself?

LIPSEY: We accompanied General Wehle in a helicopter.

Q: In a helicopter. While the body was being driven?

LIPSEY: Right.

Q: And then you were there when...

LIPSEY: The body was in the procession and going through Washington but
there were two hearses and one pulled right up to the front door and one
went around with the body, went around to the back of the hospital.


JFK's body was NEVER in a helicopter between Andrews and Bethesda on the
evening of 11/22/63. Richard Lipsey himself said so.

Your apparent inability to read the man's verbatim testimony and quote it
accurately sort of calls in to question your ability to accurately analyze
other evidence as well.

[mainframetech]

See below.

>
> > >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > There are some cases of statements and not testimony, but there was no statement at the top that all was from sworn testimony. I use it where I can, and most places I do.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> See later comments.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > At *odds* with some of what he told Lifton, he then begins to give *sworn*
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > testimony refuting what he told Lifton earlier and affirming facts
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > generally in agreement with the official findings of a smaller entrance
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > wound in the back (occipital area) and that most of the missing bone was
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > in the parietal area.
>
> >
>
> > >

In looking over the Stringer testimony, I found some interesting lines.
On major page 37, on minor page 197, read the text there. Stringer is
being asked about the wound in the BOH. It goes like this:

Q: You're referring to that piece of what, again, looks like matter near
the hairline?

A: Yeah, and here again, it shows where the hole - the scalp was intact
then.


While Stringer speaks the party line, he made a slip of the tongue in
answering about the BOH. He spoke of the 'HOLE' and then quickly
corrected it to 'scalp'.

In his testimony of 1972 he says what so many people said, then in 1996
he says the party line, but makes a slip. Hard for me to give credence to
his version of the 'hole' in 1996.

>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > How then can you list him as a large BOH witness, when his own *sworn*
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > testimony seems to refute that?
>
> >

See below for that answer.

>
> > >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > He said that he had seen the 'large hole', then was convinced to say otherwise, as with others in the case that changed statements. Seymour Weitzman, for example.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> Hmmm. That attitude makes me wonder about the wisdom of trying to follow down your testimony path. In some of your recent writings, you emphasize that the people you site are giving sworn testimony. In my mind you are implying that *sworn* testimony should generally be given more weight than something said not under oath.
>
>

I was told in another forum that sworn testimony was more believable, I
don't agree with that, but I've tried to use it where I can because it is
better at convincing those I'm talking to.

>
> However, upon closer scrutiny, it seems that you are kind of trying to have your cake and eat it too. That is, you want the oath to carry some weight when the witness says something that supports a conspiracy, but feel free to reject it flatly when it goes against one.
>
> >

See below for answer.

>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > 3) You list Francis O'neil as #9 as a BOH witness---best as I can
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > tell---based purely on non-*sworn* testimony. Yet in support of your own
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > theory on how the top of the head was damaged, you ignore his *sworn*
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > testimony to the ARRB that body of Kennedy arrived in the "Bronze Casket"
>
> >

I took the list of people in the montage early on because they were all
together and had said basically the same thing. I didn't then go and
check his testimony to see what he said about the casket. I looked into
the casket situation separately, and may never have looked at O'Neill's
separate statements (if any). I looked at the Sibert & O'Neill report,
and putting that together with all the other statements and facts, it came
out that they glossed some of the details. It had to be, since there was
clear testimony about the switch from more than one person. Tell me if
I'm wrong, but looking through the 5 pages of the Sibert & O'Neill report,
I find NO mention of the word 'bronze' or any similar descriptive word,
like 'metallic' or 'decorative' or some such. If you found 'bronze
mentioned somewhere in testimony, let me know.

>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > wrapped in a "sheet" with another bloody one wrapped around his head.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > The 2 things don't work together. O'Neill saying something about a wound has nothing to do with what casket JFK was in, as far as I know.
>
>
>
> But what I am saying *does* work together. My point is really very simple. You are implying that the sworn nature of some of your witnesses testimony makes them more likely to be telling the truth. However, when it comes down to brass tacks, it seems that you are really just picking testimony you like based *solely* on whether it bolsters your ideas.
>

Ah, I see. The meaning of sworn testimony was impressed on me by
someone in another forum. I used 'sworn testimony' as something more
believable for those that feel that it is more likely true because of the
possible punishment for lying. In this case I believe some would lie
under oath for their safety, if not told to.

>
>
> If a witness makes non-sworn statements friendly to your ideas, you are perfectly happy to embrace it, but when that *SAME* witness gives sworn testimony that contradicts your notions, you have no issue dismissing that those statements as lies. At the end of the day, you are trying to have it both ways when it comes to sworn testimony meaning anything.
>
>

Usually I used a search engine to find the people, and took the first
testimony or statement that I found that indicated a 'large hole' in the
BOH. I did NOT take any names that described the wound as being on top or
side of the head. The case where I said that I took the earlier statement
was correct though. I took the one I believe was true and not the party
line.

>
>
>
>
>
> First, Frank O'Neill was quoted in the montage spoken of at the beginning of the article. Here it is, and note O'Neill being quoted and placing his hand at the rear of his head, not the side, which was where later they tried to make the wound appear to be.
>
> >
>
> > http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/8187/witnessesrearexitwoundk.jpg
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Second, while the Sibert & O'Neill report doesn't specify, it's generally calculated from it that the arrival of the bronze casket at the main entrance (front) of the Bethesda facility was at 7:17pm. Testimony says that the Kennedy party that traveled with the naval ambulance with the Bronze casket came inside and rode up to the executive suite on the 17th floor. The ambulance then drove the casket around to the back of the facility. The situation was that the Bronze casket was empty and the body of JFK had been placed in a simple shipping casket at the airport. The people that saw to it were General Wehle and his aide, Richard Lipsey. Here is a short version of Lipsey's testimony:
>
> >
>
> > http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/HSCA_Medical_Interviews
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > You can look through Lipsey's testimony in transcript too, it's also online.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > The switch having been made with the caskets, the bronze casket was sent to Bethesda in an ambulance with the Kennedy party, including the FBI and SS agents. The real casket with the body was sent by helicopters (the honor guard were carried too) and got to Bethesda much sooner that the empty Bronze casket. A Marine sgt. Roger Boyajian recorded the arrival time of the simple shipping casket as 6:35pm in his after action report, which is online. This is earlier than the time for the Bronze casket.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> Has it ever occured to you that Boyajian, who wrote the time down the time 4 days later and described the situation as "hectic" in his discussion with Horne, could have simply gotten the time off by about 30 minutes? AFAIC see, his statments to Horne do no indicate what kind of casket he saw or where he saw it arrive:
>
>
>
> http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/pdf/md236.pdf
>
>

I don't think Boyajian's time was off at all. It matches with the times
used by Dennis David. Dennis David used 6:45pm as his time for the casket
arriving.

>
> Also, even by helicopter, the timing of the casket arriving only 20 minutes after AF1 landed seems mighty tight. Do you have any witnesses as to what time it allegedly took off with JFK's body?
>
>

So far, I've only found the testimony of Richard Lipsey, the guy that
helped to do the switch and arrange the helicopter ride. I imagine it was
done in as much secrecy as possible, so there wouldn't be too many
observers. My guess is that they got the bronze casket taken to a
building nearby at the airport with some pretext, and then switched the
caskets while no one was watching. There was a story that the 2 drivers
of the ambulance with the shipping casket were wearing surgeon's gowns,
and that (if true) would fit nicely with moving the body from one casket
to another. It wouldn't do to have blood all over your uniform as you
arrived at the Bethesda morgue...:) 20 minutes DOES seem short. Where
did you get the starting time for the helicopters? Is that solid?
Lipsey didn't go into detail about what and how they moved the body and
where it was done. I think they weren't that happy that they had to do
it, and thought it wouldn't go over well to be brought out to the public.



>
> >
>
> > Sibert & O'Neill may or may not have known about the casket switch, supposedly to fool the media (that was the stated reason for the switch). But at some point at the morgue, they had to find that the body was NOT in the Bronze casket, but in the shipping casket. Given the timing, the body was already on the table and being worked on by Humes and Boswell. They had been ordered not to leave the body, yet they had, knowingly or not left it and followed an empty casket. I doubt they wanted to report that. But if it was known by them that the switch was done, then they wouldn't want to report on that either. Folks wouldn't want to know that in the middle of the night and Jackie's grief and all the rest, the FBI ands SS were playing musical caskets with JFK's body.

>
> >
>
> >
>
>
>
> Yep. More persons willing to lie uder oath that they saw the body taken out of the bronze casket, when in fact they could not have seen any such thing.
>
>

Sometimes the description of what happened in reports or testimony
glosses over the body and what casket it came out of, but later after the
damage was done and the body put into the bronze casket, which was stored
in the cooler area, people saw the body come out of the bronze casket as
expected after the 8:00pm 'official' autopsy was underway.

>
> >
>
> > Make note, the casket switch is in the sworn testimony of Richard Lipsey. The testimony of others at Bethesda back that up as to the body being in the shipping casket. Those that saw it in the Bronze casket at Bethesda may have seen it after Humes and Boswell put the body back in the Bronze casket after they had damaged the top of head. If you check the Sibert & O'Neill report, you see a note on page 3 that when the body was taken out and put on the table, it was noticed that "surgery of the head area, namely, in the top of the skull" had been done. They had thought that happened as a first step, when Humes and Boswell actually had been working earlier on that area and put the body back. The only other choice there is that the FBI and other agents there knew what was going on, that the body was being altered to match the scenario of the 'lone nut' and they all covered it up, which doesn't seem probable.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> Yet the surgery comment has been explained by Sibert as referring to the neck wound. See about the 9:15 mark of the following:
>
>
>
> http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/07/interview-with-james-sibert.html
>
>

If you use DVP's site you'll find all you need to back up any LN
viewpoint, but I find I don't trust it. But I couldn't find the item you
pointed out. I don't think it would matter though, because here's the
statement from the Sibert & O'Neill report itself generated soon after the
autopsy:

"It was ascertained that the president's clothing had been removed and it
was also apparent that a tracheotomy had been performed, AS WELL AS
SURGERY OF THE HEAD AREA, NAMELY, IN THE TOP OF THE SKULL." [MY CAPS]

If Sibert said something that matched with the party line in 2005, and
it disagreed with that statement, then I'm going with the statement above
from their report so close to the action. The report was clear that
surgery of the top of the skull was done, and Humes's remark about it just
cinches it.

> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > How is it determined by you that his non-sworn testimony is to be
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > believed, but his *sworn* testimony can be ignored?
>
> >

See above.

>
> > >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > He said what he was quoted as saying. If he later got on to the party line, that's another story. Others were also convinced to change their stories where it needed to match the scenario of the wacky WC 'lone nut' theory.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> Yep. Sworn testimony only matter in on direction.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > 4) Sibert #27, also repeats the general comments about the type of casket
>
> >

I don't follow. Sibert & O'Neill were with the Kennedy party and the
bronze casket that was sent over the road to get to Bethesda later than
the helicopter that carried the shipping casket with Wehle and Lipsey. I
just noticed an odd circumstance. Gen. Wehle and Richard Lipsey, who was
supposed to stay with the JFK body through thick and thin, were NOT listed
in the Sibert & O'Neill report!! Many other military people were listed,
from high to low ranks. Were they kicked out early with the assistants
before Sibert & O'Neill got there at 7:17pm? Odd. Unless they didn't
want to mention them because it might bring out the musical caskets and
that that the military was playing with the body of a beloved president.
The family might not approve.

>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > and how JFK was wrapped in his *sworn* testimony.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > That's dealt with in another thread and above. He may not have wanted to admit that he left the body of JFK after being ordered to stay with it. He followed the Kennedy family and the Bronze casket, which was empty. The idea that the casket switch was to fool the media seems silly when you look back on it. The media followed the family with Jackie and Bobby anyway, and they wouldn't have let them enter the morgue if they had followed the body. The marines were stationed at all access points to keep unauthorized people out. Of course, there had to be some excuse to get the body to Bethesda early for the prosectors to do the damage before anyone else arrived. They even kicked out the assistants as they were doing the deed to have privacy.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> I've seen a different explanation as to the helicopter's purpose, but will need to do more research before commenting.
>
>
>
> However, one point you have made repeatedly is how "highly unsual" it was
>
> for Humes or Boswell to have done some of the pre-autopsy prep-work they
>
> would normally leave to underlings. May I take this opportunity to point
>
> out that having the youthful and shockingly slain President of the United
>
> States wheeled into your morgue on short notice for you to autopsy without
>
> having a background as a *forensic* pathologist, is itself, a *HIGHLY*
>
> unusual situation.
>
>
>
> Given that context, is it *really* so strange that these men would get
>
> involved in a "hands-on" way that they would never do if it were "Joe
>
> Stiff" being wheeled in after having died from a heart attack?
>
>

I might have gone with that explanation if it wasn't for a number of
items of information. First, they had been informed in advance that JFK
was coming, and (I assume) were told generally what to do to cover up
shots from the front. Second, when Paul O'Connor went to do his assigned
task of taking out the brain, he was nonplussed that it wasn't there, and
had to assume that it was blown out by a bullet! Mind you, as he is in
there looking to do his duty, Humes and Boswell were standing right there
next to him, and failed to tell him that they took out the brain already.
They just let him flounder around until he gave up with the belief that
the brain was blasted out of the head. That was his testimony in the Mock
Trial, it was so much after, and they STILL hadn't told him.

Third, Humes facetiously spoke of surgery earlier, yet HE was the one
that did it, and here he was playing like someone else had done it. Was
he trying to blame Parkland staff? Or was he just nervous because it was
obvious that surgery had been done, yet the autopsy was just beginning.
What would people think that they were invited to witness and the work was
done secretly in advance? It might suggest a cover up. Heavens!

>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Again, how do you determine it is appropriate to give such weight to
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > *sworn* testimony in one case, but not another?
>
> >

See above.

>
> > >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > As noted above there are only a few cases where you've found that situation.
>
>
>
> Yes. But I've only looked at a few cases so far. Not a trajectory that
>
> makes me assume that these will prove to be the last such situations.
>
>
>
> I used search engines to find the information, and sometimes they found
>
> one and not the other case, but when I looked at the ones you pointed out,
>
> they were both cases where the person has spoken of the 'large hole'
>
> first, then later came along to the party line. I usually take the
>
> earlier statement, which is common investigative procedure. That is
>

> closer to the 'event' and more believable. That's for those where I actually knew there were 2 statements, which there were few of.

>
>
>
> >
>
> >
>
>
>
> So are you telling me that in each case among your witnesses where they
>
> have rendered more than one version that I am going to find that it is the
>
> *earlier* statement that are supportive of your theories? I would be
>
> surprised if that were true, but I haven't carried this through further
>
> yet.
>
>

Nope. I won't tell you that. Most often when I found a person's name,
I googled it, or looked in testimony and when it said something that meant
a 'large hole' in the BOH, I recorded it and where it came from. I didn't
spend hours checking every word out of a witness's mouth.

>
> >
>
> > I know there is a lot above to wade through, and I'm sorry about that, but there were certain basics I had to cover to answer your questions. If it has generated more questions, just ask...:)
>
> >
>
> >
>
> I am sure I will when I get 'round to looking at more.
>
>
>
> >
>
> > I have repaired the problem of the duplicate entry of Stringer, and we are back to a list of 39 names, and I continue to look for others that should be listed.
>
> >
>
> >
>
>
>
> Yes I see.
>
>
>
> BT George

The amount of names that say 'large hole' in BOH is not that important
since there are so many names compared to those that say there was a small
hole, or a bullet hole in the BOH. I've only found the 2 prosectors.
There was a doctor at Parkland, but he was never in the ER and just used
it to make some money, write a book, and get on TV and go around and
speak. All the sort of things that most of the witnesses didn't do.

Chris

[mainframetech]

On Saturday, December 7, 2013 10:46:11 AM UTC-5, Lanny wrote:
> On Thursday, December 5, 2013 5:27:57 PM UTC-5, mainframetech wrote:
>
>
>
> >
>
> The situation was that the Bronze casket was empty and the body of JFK had been placed in a simple shipping casket at the airport. The people that saw to it were General Wehle and his aide, Richard Lipsey. Here is a short version of Lipsey's testimony:
>
> >
>
> > http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/HSCA_Medical_Interviews
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > You can look through Lipsey's testimony in transcript too, it's also online.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > The switch having been made with the caskets, the bronze casket was sent to Bethesda in an ambulance with the Kennedy party, including the FBI and SS agents. The real casket with the body was sent by helicopters (the honor guard were carried too) and got to Bethesda much sooner that the empty Bronze casket. A Marine sgt. Roger Boyajian recorded the arrival time of the simple shipping casket as 6:35pm in his after action report, which is online. This is earlier than the time for the Bronze casket.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Sibert & O'Neill may or may not have known about the casket switch, supposedly to fool the media (that was the stated reason for the switch). But at some point at the morgue, they had to find that the body was NOT in the Bronze casket, but in the shipping casket. Given the timing, the body was already on the table and being worked on by Humes and Boswell. They had been ordered not to leave the body, yet they had, knowingly or not left it and followed an empty casket. I doubt they wanted to report that. But if it was known by them that the switch was done, then they wouldn't want to report on that either. Folks wouldn't ant to know that in the middle of the night and Jackie's grief and all the rest, the FBI ands SS were playing musical caskets with JFK's body.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Make note, the casket switch is in the sworn testimony of Richard Lipsey. The testimony of others at Bethesda back that up as to the body being in the shipping casket. Those that saw it in the Bronze casket at Bethesda may have seen it after Humes and Boswell put the body back in the Bronze casket after they had damaged the top of head. If you check the Sibert & O'Neill report, you see a note on page 3 that when the body was taken out and put on the table, it was noticed that "surgery of the head area, namely, in the top of the skull" had been done. They had thought that happened as a first step, when Humes and Boswell actually had been working earlier on that area and put the body back. The only other choice there is that the FBI and other agents there knew what was going on, that the body was being altered to match the scenario of the 'lone nut' and they all covered it up, which doesn't seem probable.
>
> >
>
>
>
> Nowhere in Lipsey’s HSCA interview does he state that President
>
> Kennedy’s body was transferred from the bronze casket to a standard
>
> shipping casket while in Air Force One at Andrews AFB or anywhere else.
>
> To the contrary, on the very first page of the interview transcript whose
>
> link you cited, he stated that JFK’s body was placed in a hearse and
>
> DRIVEN to Bethesda while he (Lipsey), General Wehle and the honor guard
>
> flew to Bethesda in a helicopter.
>

Well now, let's look at that Lipsey interview... here's some of it:

"LIPSEY: I was standing there at the airplane when it was loaded into the
hearse and then I was standing right there. I helped then unload the casket
myself when we were at the hospital. Right.
Q: And then you accompanied it from that point on?
LIPSEY: Then never left it.
Q: You stayed with the body?
LIPSEY: Right."

OK, now we know that the body NEVER left the presence of Lipsey.
Except that Lipsey went with Wehle in the HELICOPTER. That means that the
casket with the body went by helicopter to Bethesda with Lipsey. The only
way they could get the body there earlier to 'avoid all the media' who
were following the Kennedy family and the bronze casket, was to use the
helicopters, otherwise why bother with them? They could easily
requisition a vehicle to carry the honor guard over the road and let them
go with the motorcade to the Bethesda facility.


But there's further proof that the body was in the shipping casket
because one of the people that helped bring in the casket from the back
door where the morgue was located, and where Lipsey says he went after his
helicopter ride was Dennis David, and he remembered that the casket he
helped bring into the morgue (where the autopsy was to be done)was a
simple shipping casket, like the many he had seen in Vietnam bringing home
the dead. As well, now that we know that Lipsey arrived with the shipping
casket, we meet Ed Reed, X-ray technician, who helped open the shipping
casket and lift out the body and place it on the table once it was inside.
He was asked to identify the body, and he knew it was JFK and said so.
So now we have testimony that JFK was in the shipping casket, and we know
that it came by helicopter with Lipsey and Wehle and went righto the back
door where the morgue was.

>
>
> Q: I have a question. How did you go from when Air Force One landed? How
>
> did you go from Andrews to Bethesda itself?
>

Andrews to Bethesda is related above. Lipsey and Wehle did it as per
Lipsey's statements. How they got the bronze casket to a concealed place
for 3 minutes I don't know, though there was one person that said the
drivers that brought the shipping casket to the morgue were dressed in
surgeon's gowns, which might suggest clothing to move the body with. It
might have even been Lipsey and Wehle. In any event it wouldn't have been
much trouble to get the casket to a quiet place...any room would do, and
life the body out of one casket and plop it down in another. Seconds
actually.

>
>
> LIPSEY: We accompanied General Wehle in a helicopter.
>
>
>
> Q: In a helicopter. While the body was being driven?
>
>
>
> LIPSEY: Right.
>
>
>
> Q: And then you were there when...
>
>
>
> LIPSEY: The body was in the procession and going through Washington but
>
> there were two hearses and one pulled right up to the front door and one
>
> went around with the body, went around to the back of the hospital.
>

True, but misleading. Remember, no one wanted the public or the family
to know there military was playing musical caskets with the body of JFK.
It wouldn't be appreciated.

>
>
>
>
> JFK's body was NEVER in a helicopter between Andrews and Bethesda on the
>
> evening of 11/22/63. Richard Lipsey himself said so.
>

However, he then proved he lied by saying the body never left his side
and he then took a helicopter with Wehle. Why bother with a helicopter if
they were just going to put the body into a hearse that would travel at
the same speed as the other decoy hearse?

>
>
> Your apparent inability to read the man's verbatim testimony and quote it
>
> accurately sort of calls in to question your ability to accurately analyze
>
> other evidence as well.

Your lack of ability to wait until you hear the answers to your
questions can make you less knowledgeable. Try and relax, breathe deeply,
and read the above again, thinking at the same time.

Chris

[OHLeeRedux]

So, Chris, when and where was the body moved from the bronze casket to the
shipping casket?

From where was the shipping casket obtained? By whom? How was it
transported to AF1 without anyone but the conspirators noticing? After
all, it's not as if caskets are just lying around everywhere waiting to be
appropriated by assassination conspirators.

"I don't know," or some similar response is not adequate. You are
propounding a complex conspiracy theory. If you cannot fill in critical
details, then your theory is untenable. As with all CTs, it is not enough
to focus on one isolated aspect of the assassination, pick apart the
evidence and ferret out microscopic inconsistencies.

Someone killed JFK. If you know who it was, share that information with
us, and present your case in total. After fifty years, it is time to put
up or shut up.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 12/7/2013 11:01 PM, mainframetech wrote:
> On Saturday, December 7, 2013 10:46:11 AM UTC-5, Lanny wrote:
>> On Thursday, December 5, 2013 5:27:57 PM UTC-5, mainframetech wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>> The situation was that the Bronze casket was empty and the body of JFK had been placed in a simple shipping casket at the airport. The people that saw to it were General Wehle and his aide, Richard Lipsey. Here is a short version of Lipsey's testimony:
>>
>>>
>>
>>> http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/HSCA_Medical_Interviews
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>> You can look through Lipsey's testimony in transcript too, it's also online.
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>> The switch having been made with the caskets, the bronze casket was sent to Bethesda in an ambulance with the Kennedy party, including the FBI and SS agents. The real casket with the body was sent by helicopters (the honor guard were carried too) and got to Bethesda much sooner that the empty Bronze casket. A Marine sgt. Roger Boyajian recorded the arrival time of the simple shipping casket as 6:35pm in his after action report, which is online. This is earlier than the time for the Bronze casket.
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Sibert & O'Neill may or may not have known about the casket switch, supposedly to fool the media (that was the stated reason for the switch). But at some point at the morgue, they had to find that the body was NOT in the Bronze casket, but in the shipping casket. Given the timing, the body was already on the table and being worked on by Humes and Boswell. They had been ordered not to leave the body, yet they had, knowingly or not left it and followed an empty casket. I doubt they wanted to report that. But if it was known by them that the switch was done, then they wouldn't want to report on that either. Folks wouldn't ant to know that in the middle of the night and Jackie's grief and all the rest, the FBI ands SS were playing musical caskets with JFK's body.
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Make note, the casket switch is in the sworn testimony of Richard Lipsey. The testimony of others at Bethesda back that up as to the body being in the shipping casket. Those that saw it in the Bronze casket at Bethesda may have seen it after Humes and Boswell put the body back in the Bronze casket after they had damaged the top of head. If you check the Sibert & O'Neill report, you see a note on page 3 that when the body was taken out and put on the table, it was noticed that "surgery of the head area, namely, in the top of the skull" had been done. They had thought that happened as a first step, when Humes and Boswell actually had been working earlier on that area and put the body back. The only other choice there is that the FBI and other agents there knew what was going on, that the body was being altered to match the scenario of the 'lone nut' and they all covered it up, which doesn't seem probable.
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>

>> Nowhere in Lipsey�s HSCA interview does he state that President
>>
>> Kennedy�s body was transferred from the bronze casket to a standard

>>
>> shipping casket while in Air Force One at Andrews AFB or anywhere else.
>>
>> To the contrary, on the very first page of the interview transcript whose
>>

>> link you cited, he stated that JFK�s body was placed in a hearse and

>>
>> DRIVEN to Bethesda while he (Lipsey), General Wehle and the honor guard
>>
>> flew to Bethesda in a helicopter.
>>
>
>
> Well now, let's look at that Lipsey interview... here's some of it:
>
> "LIPSEY: I was standing there at the airplane when it was loaded into the
> hearse and then I was standing right there. I helped then unload the casket
> myself when we were at the hospital. Right.
> Q: And then you accompanied it from that point on?
> LIPSEY: Then never left it.
> Q: You stayed with the body?
> LIPSEY: Right."
>
> OK, now we know that the body NEVER left the presence of Lipsey.
> Except that Lipsey went with Wehle in the HELICOPTER. That means that the
> casket with the body went by helicopter to Bethesda with Lipsey. The only
> way they could get the body there earlier to 'avoid all the media' who
> were following the Kennedy family and the bronze casket, was to use the
> helicopters, otherwise why bother with them? They could easily
> requisition a vehicle to carry the honor guard over the road and let them
> go with the motorcade to the Bethesda facility.
>
>

The helicopters were there for the military to get to the hospital
BEFORE the casket.

> But there's further proof that the body was in the shipping casket
> because one of the people that helped bring in the casket from the back
> door where the morgue was located, and where Lipsey says he went after his
> helicopter ride was Dennis David, and he remembered that the casket he
> helped bring into the morgue (where the autopsy was to be done)was a
> simple shipping casket, like the many he had seen in Vietnam bringing home
> the dead. As well, now that we know that Lipsey arrived with the shipping

Not JFK's casket.

> casket, we meet Ed Reed, X-ray technician, who helped open the shipping
> casket and lift out the body and place it on the table once it was inside.
> He was asked to identify the body, and he knew it was JFK and said so.
> So now we have testimony that JFK was in the shipping casket, and we know
> that it came by helicopter with Lipsey and Wehle and went righto the back
> door where the morgue was.
>

Where did the honor guard come from?

[mainframetech]

On Sunday, December 8, 2013 3:43:59 PM UTC-5, OHLeeRedux wrote:
> So, Chris, when and where was the body moved from the bronze casket to the
>
> shipping casket?
>

Based on Lipsey's testimony, it would be easy to obtain (see below).

>
>
> From where was the shipping casket obtained? By whom? How was it
>
> transported to AF1 without anyone but the conspirators noticing? After
>
> all, it's not as if caskets are just lying around everywhere waiting to be
>
> appropriated by assassination conspirators.
>

I'm not convinced of that. But Lipsey was clear in that they made their
preparations in the afternoon before the body landed. Here's his
testimony:

"We met the body at Andrews Air force Base. We had everything organized by
that afternoon".

From:
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/med_testimony/Lipsey_1-18-78/HSCA-Lipsey.htm

So if the plan needed a casket, they had arranged it already for the
meeting with the body. remember, this is the air base near Bethesda and I
think also Walter Reed hospitals. A casket could be obtained fairly
easily by a General, and a military shipping casket at AAFB wouldn't be
that out of place with the hospitals nearby.

>
>
> "I don't know," or some similar response is not adequate.

do not begin to tell me what is or isn't adequate. I'll say my piece and
you will say yours and others will make their own decisions, or ask
questions.

You are
>
> propounding a complex conspiracy theory. If you cannot fill in critical
>
> details, then your theory is untenable. As with all CTs, it is not enough
>
> to focus on one isolated aspect of the assassination, pick apart the
>
> evidence and ferret out microscopic inconsistencies.
>

When a prosector tells another who was late to the 'official' autopsy
that they had not needed to use a saw to get the brain out, and 2 other
witnesses SAW him use scalpel and saw, then it stands with all the other
inconsistencies and secrecy as to the goings on before the 'official'
autopsy. YOU may think it is a minor point, but if the scalpel and saw
had to be used then the head wasn't as damaged as they said it was upon
receipt at Bethesda, and the hole in the top and part of the side of the
head wasn't as large as said. It becomes important. Other 'microscopic
inconsistencies' have greater meaning too, and I will bring them up any
time it occurs to me, or as needed to prove a point.

Make a note...very little of what I'm saying can be called 'my theory'.
It is almost completely from sworn testimony. I know you would like to
believe it's a theory, but Lipsey has made the dual casket story true, and
other witnesses have corroborated the existence of the shipping casket.

>
>
> Someone killed JFK. If you know who it was, share that information with
>
> us, and present your case in total. After fifty years, it is time to put
>
> up or shut up.

I'm guessing you know where to put it after changing it into pennies.
You don't make such decisions here, and I don't follow your orders. If
you don't like what I have to say, then do some research with what I've
laid out and come up with alternate theories or points of your own to
contend with mine. I'll be happy to discuss them with you. If you want
to pick at my findings, that's fine by me, since it can only strengthen my
position.

In a different tone, To help you a bit in your frustration, the people
higher up the food chain that would be or were involved in the murder have
been listed by many others, and my purpose at this time is determining the
processes of the murder and how various parts of the plan were carried
out. As more and more evidence comes out, more and better results will
come from investigations, and we may have other murderers listed. At this
point, I know of some who think that LBJ was involved in the murder, since
his mistress told her story. Of course, her word alone wasn't enough, but
he had much to gain from the murder, so we have motive covered.
Opportunity and means is easy for someone with many flunkies.

But there's nothing final as to conspirators at this time in my mind,
and I'm not working on that aspect yet.

Chris

[mainframetech]

Lipsey made it clear that they wanted to get to the hospital BEFORE the
media, but if the media were following the bronze casket and the ambulance
that was carrying it, Then they would get to the main entrance of the
hospital at the same time as the body. No gain there. The body had to
get there earlier than the bronze casket, but were they just going to
throw the body of the late president in the back of an ambulance and go?
No, they needed a casket, preferably one that didn't stand out, like the
simple shipping casket used to bring home the bodies of dead soldiers.
THAT casket was received at the back door at the morgue earlier than the
bronze casket, and testimony corroborates that.

>
>
> > But there's further proof that the body was in the shipping casket
>
> > because one of the people that helped bring in the casket from the back
>
> > door where the morgue was located, and where Lipsey says he went after his
>
> > helicopter ride was Dennis David, and he remembered that the casket he
>
> > helped bring into the morgue (where the autopsy was to be done)was a
>
> > simple shipping casket, like the many he had seen in Vietnam bringing home
>
> > the dead. As well, now that we know that Lipsey arrived with the shipping
>
>
>
> Not JFK's casket.
>

Who knows what you mean by that comment? I'll assume that you mean
that the casket the body arrived in wasn't the shipping casket, that it
was the Bronze casket. Did YOU open the bronze casket and look?
Otherwise YOU have no clue what casket JFK arrived in. The testimony that
I've quoted a hundred times proves that the body of JFK arrived in the
shipping casket. Check with the testimony of Dennis David and Ed Reed
aside from Lipsey.

>
>
> > casket, we meet Ed Reed, X-ray technician, who helped open the shipping
>
> > casket and lift out the body and place it on the table once it was inside.
>
> > He was asked to identify the body, and he knew it was JFK and said so.
>
> > So now we have testimony that JFK was in the shipping casket, and we know
>
> > that it came by helicopter with Lipsey and Wehle and went righto the back
>
> > door where the morgue was.
>
> >
>
>
>
> Where did the honor guard come from?
>

You're just not paying attention. The honor guard was at the airport
and was carried to Bethesda in one of 2 helicopters that Wehle and Lipsey
commandeered. See the testimony of Lipsey.

>
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >>
>
> >> Q: I have a question. How did you go from when Air Force One landed? How
>
> >>
>
> >> did you go from Andrews to Bethesda itself?
>
> >>
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Andrews to Bethesda is related above. Lipsey and Wehle did it as per
>
> > Lipsey's statements. How they got the bronze casket to a concealed place
>
> > for 3 minutes I don't know, though there was one person that said the
>
> > drivers that brought the shipping casket to the morgue were dressed in
>
> > surgeon's gowns, which might suggest clothing to move the body with. It
>
> > might have even been Lipsey and Wehle. In any event it wouldn't have been
>
> > much trouble to get the casket to a quiet place...any room would do, and
>
> > life the body out of one casket and plop it down in another. Seconds
>
> > actually.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> LIPSEY: We accompanied General Wehle in a helicopter.
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> Q: In a helicopter. While the body was being driven?
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> LIPSEY: Right.
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> Q: And then you were there when...
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> LIPSEY: The body was in the procession and going through Washington but
>
> >>
>
> >> there were two hearses and one pulled right up to the front door and one
>
> >>
>
> >> went around with the body, went around to the back of the hospital.
>
> >>
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > True, but misleading. Remember, no one wanted the public or the family
>

> > to know their military was playing musical caskets with the body of JFK.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 12/9/2013 7:07 PM, mainframetech wrote:
> On Sunday, December 8, 2013 8:29:25 PM UTC-5, Anthony Marsh wrote:
>> On 12/7/2013 11:01 PM, mainframetech wrote:
>>
>>> On Saturday, December 7, 2013 10:46:11 AM UTC-5, Lanny wrote:
>>
>>>> On Thursday, December 5, 2013 5:27:57 PM UTC-5, mainframetech wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> The situation was that the Bronze casket was empty and the body of JFK had been placed in a simple shipping casket at the airport. The people that saw to it were General Wehle and his aide, Richard Lipsey. Here is a short version of Lipsey's testimony:
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/HSCA_Medical_Interviews
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> You can look through Lipsey's testimony in transcript too, it's also online.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> The switch having been made with the caskets, the bronze casket was sent to Bethesda in an ambulance with the Kennedy party, including the FBI and SS agents. The real casket with the body was sent by helicopters (the honor guard were carried too) and got to Bethesda much sooner that the empty Bronze casket. A Marine sgt. Roger Boyajian recorded the arrival time of the simple shipping casket as 6:35pm in his after action report, which is online. This is earlier than the time for the Bronze casket.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> Sibert & O'Neill may or may not have known about the casket switch, supposedly to fool the media (that was the stated reason for the switch). But at some point at the morgue, they had to find that the body was NOT in the Bronze casket, but in the shipping casket. Given the timing, the body was already on the table and being worked on by Humes and Boswell. They had been ordered not to leave the body, yet they had, knowingly or not left it and followed an empty casket. I doubt they wanted to report that. But if it was known by them that the switch was done, then they wouldn't want to report on that either. Folks wouldn't ant to know that in the middle of the night and Jackie's grief and all the rest, the FBI ands SS were playing musical caskets with JFK's body.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> Make note, the casket switch is in the sworn testimony of Richard Lipsey. The testimony of others at Bethesda back that up as to the body being in the shipping casket. Those that saw it in the Bronze casket at Bethesda may have seen it after Humes and Boswell put the body back in the Bronze casket after they had damaged the top of head. If you check the Sibert & O'Neill report, you see a note on page 3 that when the body was taken out and put on the table, it was noticed that "surgery of the head area, namely, in the top of the skull" had been done. They had thought that happened as a first step, when Humes and Boswell actually had been working earlier on that area and put the body back. The only other choice there is that the FBI and other agents there knew what was going on, that the body was being altered to match the scenario of the 'lone nut' and they all covered it up, which doesn't seem probable.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>

>>>> Nowhere in Lipsey�s HSCA interview does he state that President
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> Kennedy�s body was transferred from the bronze casket to a standard

>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> shipping casket while in Air Force One at Andrews AFB or anywhere else.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> To the contrary, on the very first page of the interview transcript whose
>>
>>>>
>>

>>>> link you cited, he stated that JFK�s body was placed in a hearse and

Nonsense. You are ignoring the SS and FBI. You cherrypick which
witnesses to believe.

>
>
>>
>>
>>> casket, we meet Ed Reed, X-ray technician, who helped open the shipping
>>
>>> casket and lift out the body and place it on the table once it was inside.
>>
>>> He was asked to identify the body, and he knew it was JFK and said so.
>>
>>> So now we have testimony that JFK was in the shipping casket, and we know
>>
>>> that it came by helicopter with Lipsey and Wehle and went righto the back
>>
>>> door where the morgue was.
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Where did the honor guard come from?
>>
>
>
> You're just not paying attention. The honor guard was at the airport
> and was carried to Bethesda in one of 2 helicopters that Wehle and Lipsey
> commandeered. See the testimony of Lipsey.
>

That's my point. The helicopters were used by the military to get to the
hospital before the body.

[Anthony Marsh]

As alwys you misrepresent the evidence. He said no sawing waa necessary
and no one else reported sawing.

[mainframetech]

On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 12:30:10 AM UTC-5, Anthony Marsh wrote:
> On 12/9/2013 7:07 PM, mainframetech wrote:
>
> > On Sunday, December 8, 2013 8:29:25 PM UTC-5, Anthony Marsh wrote:
>
> >> On 12/7/2013 11:01 PM, mainframetech wrote:
>
> >>
>
> >>> On Saturday, December 7, 2013 10:46:11 AM UTC-5, Lanny wrote:
>
> >>
>
> >>>> On Thursday, December 5, 2013 5:27:57 PM UTC-5, mainframetech wrote:
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>> The situation was that the Bronze casket was empty and the body of JFK had been placed in a simple shipping casket at the airport. The people that saw to it were General Wehle and his aide, Richard Lipsey. Here is a short version of Lipsey's testimony:
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>> http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/HSCA_Medical_Interviews
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>> You can look through Lipsey's testimony in transcript too, it's also online.
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>> The switch having been made with the caskets, the bronze casket was sent to Bethesda in an ambulance with the Kennedy party, including the FBI and SS agents. The real casket with the body was sent by helicopters (the honor guard were carried too) and got to Bethesda much sooner that the empty Bronze casket. A Marine sgt. Roger Boyajian recorded the arrival time of the simple shipping casket as 6:35pm in his after action report, which is online. This is earlier than the time for the Bronze casket.
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>> Sibert & O'Neill may or may not have known about the casket switch, supposedly to fool the media (that was the stated reason for the switch). But at some point at the morgue, they had to find that the body was NOT in the Bronze casket, but in the shipping casket. Given the timing, the body was already on the table and being worked on by Humes and Boswell. They had been ordered not to leave the body, yet they had, knowingly or not left it and followed an empty casket. I doubt they wanted to report that. But if it was known by them that the switch was done, then they wouldn't want to report on that either. Folks wouldn't ant to know that in the middle of the night and Jackie's grief and all the rest, the FBI ands SS were playing musical caskets with JFK's body.
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>> Make note, the casket switch is in the sworn testimony of Richard Lipsey. The testimony of others at Bethesda back that up as to the body being in the shipping casket. Those that saw it in the Bronze casket at Bethesda may have seen it after Humes and Boswell put the body back in the Bronze casket after they had damaged the top of head. If you check the Sibert & O'Neill report, you see a note on page 3 that when the body was taken out and put on the table, it was noticed that "surgery of the head area, namely, in the top of the skull" had been done. They had thought that happened as a first step, when Humes and Boswell actually had been working earlier on that area and put the body back. The only other choice there is that the FBI and other agents there knew what was going on, that the body was being altered to match the scenario of the 'lone nut' and they all covered it up, which doesn't seem probable.
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>

> >>>> Nowhere in Lipsey�s HSCA interview does he state that President
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>> Kennedy�s body was transferred from the bronze casket to a standard

>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>> shipping casket while in Air Force One at Andrews AFB or anywhere else.
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>> To the contrary, on the very first page of the interview transcript whose
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>

> >>>> link you cited, he stated that JFK�s body was placed in a hearse and

Your comment is yet again nonsense! The SS and FBI weren't present
during much of the story above. Only 2 of the prosectors and some
Bethesda personnel were present when the damage was done. I've used the
Sibert & O'Neill report for some of the info we have to look at.

>
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>> casket, we meet Ed Reed, X-ray technician, who helped open the shipping
>
> >>
>
> >>> casket and lift out the body and place it on the table once it was inside.
>
> >>
>
> >>> He was asked to identify the body, and he knew it was JFK and said so.
>
> >>
>
> >>> So now we have testimony that JFK was in the shipping casket, and we know
>
> >>
>
> >>> that it came by helicopter with Lipsey and Wehle and went righto the back
>
> >>
>
> >>> door where the morgue was.
>
> >>
>
> >>>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> Where did the honor guard come from?
>
> >>
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > You're just not paying attention. The honor guard was at the airport
>
> > and was carried to Bethesda in one of 2 helicopters that Wehle and Lipsey
>
> > commandeered. See the testimony of Lipsey.
>
> >
>
>
>
> That's my point. The helicopters were used by the military to get to the
>
> hospital before the body.
>
>

Here we go again. You spout off and don't think first. It gets you
attention, but it just slows down the whole process. You're unable to
make your comments at the end of a long post, so others have to search all
over the place for your stuff just to correct you.

Now, listen carefully. If the military wanted to get to the Bethesda
hospital first, what would they do when they got there first? Nothing.
There was nothing to do unless they got the body there first for the 2
prosectors to work on it while the SS and FBI and the family weren't
around because they were still in transit in a slower ambulance!!
Followed by media probably. The media wasn't any problem though. Marine
Sgt. Boyajian had stationed his people at access points to the autopsy
room, and they did their job successfully throughout the night. He
stationed them earlier, since they were stationed at Bethesda, it was easy
to get there in plenty of time.

Dennis David saw the ambulance and the shipping casket arrive, and
later saw the family arrive and go up to the presidential suite on the
17th floor.








>
> >
>
> >
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>>
>
> >>
>
> >>>
>
> >>
>
> >>> >
>
> >>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>

[mainframetech]

As usual, you're not listening, just inserting a comment now and then
to get attention. If you paid attention to what has been said up to now,
you'd know that Ed Reed and Tom Robinson both saw the saw being used. So
there is backup for the need for a saw. Check their ARRB testimony.

[Anthony Marsh]

You don't have any proof. You just believe whatever you hear.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 12/10/2013 1:28 PM, mainframetech wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 12:30:10 AM UTC-5, Anthony Marsh wrote:
>> On 12/9/2013 7:07 PM, mainframetech wrote:
>>
>>> On Sunday, December 8, 2013 8:29:25 PM UTC-5, Anthony Marsh wrote:
>>
>>>> On 12/7/2013 11:01 PM, mainframetech wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> On Saturday, December 7, 2013 10:46:11 AM UTC-5, Lanny wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>> On Thursday, December 5, 2013 5:27:57 PM UTC-5, mainframetech wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>> The situation was that the Bronze casket was empty and the body of JFK had been placed in a simple shipping casket at the airport. The people that saw to it were General Wehle and his aide, Richard Lipsey. Here is a short version of Lipsey's testimony:
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>> http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/HSCA_Medical_Interviews
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>> You can look through Lipsey's testimony in transcript too, it's also online.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>> The switch having been made with the caskets, the bronze casket was sent to Bethesda in an ambulance with the Kennedy party, including the FBI and SS agents. The real casket with the body was sent by helicopters (the honor guard were carried too) and got to Bethesda much sooner that the empty Bronze casket. A Marine sgt. Roger Boyajian recorded the arrival time of the simple shipping casket as 6:35pm in his after action report, which is online. This is earlier than the time for the Bronze casket.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>> Sibert & O'Neill may or may not have known about the casket switch, supposedly to fool the media (that was the stated reason for the switch). But at some point at the morgue, they had to find that the body was NOT in the Bronze casket, but in the shipping casket. Given the timing, the body was already on the table and being worked on by Humes and Boswell. They had been ordered not to leave the body, yet they had, knowingly or not left it and followed an empty casket. I doubt they wanted to report that. But if it was known by them that the switch was done, then they wouldn't want to report on that either. Folks wouldn't ant to know that in the middle of the night and Jackie's grief and all the rest, the FBI ands SS were playing musical caskets with JFK's body.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>> Make note, the casket switch is in the sworn testimony of Richard Lipsey. The testimony of others at Bethesda back that up as to the body being in the shipping casket. Those that saw it in the Bronze casket at Bethesda may have seen it after Humes and Boswell put the body back in the Bronze casket after they had damaged the top of head. If you check the Sibert & O'Neill report, you see a note on page 3 that when the body was taken out and put on the table, it was noticed that "surgery of the head area, namely, in the top of the skull" had been done. They had thought that happened as a first step, when Humes and Boswell actually had been working earlier on that area and put the body back. The only other choice there is that the FBI and other agents there knew what was going on, that the body was being altered to match the scenario of the 'lone nut' and they all covered it up, which doesn't seem probable.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>

>>>>>> Nowhere in Lipsey???s HSCA interview does he state that President
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>> Kennedy???s body was transferred from the bronze casket to a standard

>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>> shipping casket while in Air Force One at Andrews AFB or anywhere else.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>> To the contrary, on the very first page of the interview transcript whose
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>

>>>>>> link you cited, he stated that JFK???s body was placed in a hearse and

I middle post so that everyone can see the context.

> Now, listen carefully. If the military wanted to get to the Bethesda
> hospital first, what would they do when they got there first? Nothing.

They would SECURE the facility, keeping out the press and other riffraff.
They would need the honor guard there to carry the casket in. Why is it
that you never know simple things like this?

[mainframetech]

Here we go again with you attempting to get attention by saying
something wrong. You say I "have no proof" right after I supply a place
to find the proof!! I had just said "Check their ARRB testimony."
referring to statements by Ed Reed and Tom Robinson...:) I should be
charging you a nickel for each of these little lessons, I'd be a
millionaire...:)

[mainframetech]

Well it looks like you didn't think again. Sgt. Boyajian took his
marines over to the hospital and placed them around the access to the
autopsy room, without any need to 'get there first'. A phone call was all
that was needed. They were stationed at Bethesda and were there already!
So now we're back to the point that there was NO good reason for the
military to be flown to the hospital unless the body in a casket went with
them. However, we have the extra bit of information that Lipsey said he
never left the body at the air base. That means the body had to go with
him in the helicopter.