The "Domino Room Alibi"

[David Von Pein]

At The Education Forum, Lance Payette has made several excellent points
concerning Lee Harvey Oswald's so-called "Domino Room Alibi". If you'd
like to take a gander, here's the link....

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/26009-who-was-mrs-robert-reid/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-406382

As an addendum to Lance's comments on this matter, I'd like to also point
out the following fact....

For the sake of argument, even if all three of the individuals being
discussed in the "Domino Room Alibi" discussion (Jarman, Norman, and
Oswald) were, in fact, together at the same time in or near the Domino
Room on the first floor of the Book Depository Building shortly before JFK
was killed on 11/22/63, that fact most certainly **does not** exonerate
Lee Harvey Oswald as President Kennedy's assassin.

Why?

Because we know that two of those three people--James Jarman Jr. and
Harold Norman--were present on the south side of the fifth floor of the
TSBD at the time of the assassination. They were photographed by Tom
Dillard just seconds after the last shot was fired.

Therefore, since we know that Jarman and Norman had the capability of
getting from the first-floor Domino Room to an upper floor of the
Depository prior to the time when President Kennedy arrived at the corner
of Elm and Houston Streets, then why wouldn't Lee Harvey Oswald have
possessed that same capability?

Conspiracy theorists would no doubt argue that the above scenario is not
very realistic, in that it would be hard to believe that a person who was
planning on killing the President would have been located on the first
floor (and at the back of the building) at a time when he should have been
in his sniper's perch on the sixth floor waiting for the President to
arrive in Dealey Plaza.

But there are several "unknown" factors associated with Lee Oswald's
pre-assassination actions and mindset that have never been proven or
firmly established—such as the "unknown" answers to these three
questions:

Where and when did Oswald assemble his rifle (and how long did it take him
to do so)?

and...

How long did it take Oswald to construct his "Sniper's Nest" of boxes?

and...

What exactly was Oswald thinking in the hours and minutes leading up to
JFK's arrival?

I'm not saying that I think that Oswald was in the Domino Room with Jarman
and Norman just a few minutes before the assassination. I don't believe he
was. But I am saying that the so-called "Domino Room Alibi", which many
conspiracy theorists think is some sort of rock-solid proof of Lee Harvey
Oswald's innocence, is really nothing of the kind--even if Oswald had been
located in that Domino Room a few minutes before 12:30 PM on November 22,
1963.

---------

Discussion archived at my site here:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2019/09/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1332.html

[BT George]

Never heard of Lance before, but he sure did a good job with the nonsense.

[Steven M. Galbraith]

Yes, Oswald could have gone from the Domino Room to the sniper's nest in a
short time, short enough to have the time to kill JFK; but if he WAS in
the Domino Room shortly before the assassination then who was the person
seen in the sniper's nest at roughly that time? E.g., 12:25 or so?

Would those witnesses who saw him - or someone - notice that person
disappearing for few minutes? I.e., going to the DR and then returning?
Perhaps not.

Moreover, Oswald didn't know when JFK would pass by. Would he risk leaving
the nest and going down and then returning? Wouldn't it be possible that
JFK passed by while he was in the Domino Room?

I think if it could be proven that Oswald was in the DR at ~12:25 that
greatly weakens the case against him. It doesn't destroy it but it raises
a lot of issues that favors his innocence.

[David Von Pein]

FYI....

Here's a continuation of the discussion at Duncan MacRae's forum....

ROYELL STORING SAID:

Your saying Oswald had time to get into the sniper's [nest] is a double
edged sword. This time variable would also apply to Oswald claiming to
have gone outside to watch the "Pr Parade" per the alleged Hosty Notes of
Oswald's very 1st interrogation.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I don't think your example is analogous to mine at all. Please elaborate
further.


ROYELL STORING SAID:

If you are buying into Oswald being down in the Domino Room on the 1st
floor and having time to reach the 6th floor, he certainly has that same
amount of time to eventually amble out of the TSBD to watch the "Pr
Parade".

Why would anyone planning on firing a rifle out of the 6th Floor of the
TSBD horse around on the 1st Floor mere minutes prior to the JFK Limo
passing by?

Putting Oswald inside that 1st Floor Domino Room makes it FAR more likely
for him to go out the front door and watch the "Pr Parade", vs his
hustling up to the 6th floor and climbing into the sniper's nest. Anybody
at any point during that journey could have seen him heading for/climbing
into the 6th Floor sniper's nest.

If you believe Oswald fired the Carcano, you need to stay away from even
considering his being inside the Domino Room.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I was merely pointing out a verified FACT---i.e., that even if LHO had
been in or near the Domino Room at approximately 12:25 PM CST on 11/22/63,
it would NOT give Oswald an alibi for 12:30 PM when the President was
shot.

A related thought....

At another forum a few years ago, an LNer named Bud put a theory on the
table that I thought was kind of interesting. It can never be proven, of
course, but I thought it was intriguing nevertheless....

Bud's speculation was that Oswald might have gone back downstairs to the
first-floor Domino Room shortly before he assassinated the President in
order to retrieve the rifle bullets that he had forgotten to take up to
the sixth floor earlier in the day. (I think Bud was theorizing that
Oswald probably had the bullets in the pocket of his blue coat which was
later found in the Domino Room.)*

Such a quick bullet-retrieving trip could have afforded Oswald the
opportunity to see James Jarman and Harold Norman as they entered the
building via the loading dock door at the rear of the TSBD. Oswald would
have then hustled right back up to the sixth floor after grabbing the
bullets. Time elapsed for such an excursion would likely have been less
than 3 minutes.

* EDIT/FWIW -- Shortly after I posted the above comments, I looked up
Bud's original 2011 Internet message regarding this topic of Oswald's
rifle bullets. Here is that message:

"He [Oswald] doesn't need to see them [Jarman & Norman] on the first
[floor], he only needs to have seen them outside, and heard them come in
down below him. And it doesn't matter if he did see them on the first
floor, I've always felt it was possible for a smart guy like Oswald to
keep the bullets apart from the rifle, to allow for deniability if the
rifle was discovered. If he left the bullets in his jacket pocket in the
Domino room and went down to retrieve them, he might have seen them
(although you [Donald Willis] are nowhere near establishing that he did
with the weak out-of-context nonsense you are trying to use for support).
You see, it doesn't matter if Oswald was on the first floor then, it
doesn't afford him an alibi, nobody was killed then. It doesn't matter
when the motorcade was due to arrive, if circumstances prevented Oswald
from getting to where he hid the rifle, or he had trouble assembling it,
these things would dictate more than the clock." -- Bud; July 1, 2011

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.conspiracy.jfk/v2oisNe4bhI/LETkhjjNFY0J


ROYELL STORING SAID:

The malarkey above is hilarious. So Oswald is smart enough to hide the
bullets to HIS rifle, yet he leaves HIS rifle at the scene of the crime
after killing a POTUS?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Yeah, you're right, he probably should have just walked out the front (or
back) door of the TSBD carrying the 40-inch Carcano in his hands. Who's
gonna notice, right?

Is that what you think a Presidential assassin should have done with his
rifle after having just shot the POTUS?

---eyeroll---


ROYELL STORING SAID:

And then parks himself inside a theater with absolutely no avenue of
escape?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Yeah, instead of ducking into a nice dark theater, Oswald should have just
stayed right out there on sunny Jefferson Boulevard, in full view of the
passing police cars who were searching for Officer Tippit's
killer....right?

Replay: ---eyeroll---


ROYELL STORING SAID:

Regarding possible forgotten bullets, where does the Carcano Clip come
into this? It would be far easier to already have the bullets in the "now
you see it, now you don't" Carcano Clip.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Yes, I agree with you there. It would make sense for the bullets to
already be contained within the rifle clip.

But how about this for yet another (admittedly) wholly speculative LN
theory concerning this topic? ....

It's Thursday night (Nov. 21st) in Ruth Paine's garage....

Lee Oswald is busy in the garage preparing his rifle package (aka: the
"curtain rod" package) for the next day's trip into work with Buell
Frazier....

Oswald seals up the brown paper bag with disassembled Carcano Rifle No.
C2766 inside....

After taping down the top end of the package, Oswald then remembers
something....

He has forgotten to put the rifle's clip (which contains the four 6.5 mm.
bullets) inside the now-sealed brown paper package....

What should he do now? Should he unwrap and unseal the taped package in
order to place the clip and bullets inside it (perhaps running the risk of
ripping the bag and/or possibly not being able to re-tape the end of the
bag adequately enough to ensure that it stays sealed during the entire
ride to the TSBD the next morning in Frazier's car)? Or should he not
disturb the already-sealed bag and just carry the clip (w/bullets) in the
pocket of the jacket that he will wear to work the following morning?

Possibly....just possibly....perhaps Oswald decided on the latter option.

Food for (bullet) thought anyway.


COLIN CROW SAID:

So for this theory to have traction Oswald has to take the NW staircase or
the west elevator. Jarman and Norman took the west elevator to the 5th and
shut the gates, allowing it to be "called" down. For Oswald to have used
this method he would have had to wait for it to go to the 5th, then down
again, and back up to the 6th. He then shuts the gates so that it can be
used by Dougherty just a few minutes before the shots.......seems doubtful
time wise.

This leaves the back stairs and a race across to the SN on the 6th floor.
Not anywhere a convincing theory I am afraid.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

As I said earlier, the total time to do all that would have probably been
less than three minutes. Maybe even less than that if Oswald moved at a
good rapid pace. But, just like with LHO's trip from the 6th floor to the
lunchroom after the shooting, to hear a CTer tell it, such a simple
journey from the sixth floor to the first floor and back was Mission
Impossible.


MARTIN WEIDMANN SAID:

I agree that when Norman and Jarman could make it to the 5th floor, Oswald
could indeed have made it to the 6th. But IMO there are two flaws in this
reasoning.

First of all, we now know that the motorcade was running late. At the time
it happened, the shooter wouldn't and couldn't have known that. So, for
the shooter to show up on the 6th floor just prior to 12:30 pm seems an
unlikely scenario. Even more so as witnesses said [they] saw movement in
the window from 12:15 pm, which would make a lot more sense as it computes
far better with the scheduled time the motorcade was due to pass by the
TSBD. It obviously doesn't compute well with a scenario in which Oswald
stays in the Domino room until just prior to 12:30 pm.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I agree with everything you just said, Martin.

My earlier point was not that I believe Oswald was down on the first floor
at about 12:25. (As I said previously, I definitely do not believe such a
thing.) I merely was pointing out the fact that a 12:25 alibi is not the
same thing as a 12:30 alibi. And 12:30, as we all know, is the key time
here.


MICHAEL WALTON SAID:

To David Von Pein - the problem with your "All Oswald All of the Time" is
you simply cannot accept the fact that from the get-go, the whole
"investigation" was a whitewash. Yes, it's true, David. It's as simple as
that. It was written for lawyers by lawyers to fudge the record and sweep
it under the rug.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Oh, spare me the "whitewash" refrain. It's as old as dirt. And it's just
another cop-out excuse utilized by conspiracy theorists who want to
continue to pretend that Oswald was some sort of patsy/pawn.

When you dig up the very first piece of physical evidence that doesn't
point directly at the feet of Lee Harvey Oswald, let me know. I've been
waiting 30+ years to see it.

David Von Pein
September 12-13, 2019

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2187.0.html

[Bud]

Notice this guy didn`t touch a word of it.

> So Oswald is smart enough to hide the
> bullets to HIS rifle, yet he leaves HIS rifle at the scene of the crime
> after killing a POTUS?

These are two different concepts. One of the hallmarks of a good
conspiracy theorist is the inability to make distinctions. One is actions
taken before achieving the goal he set out to reach, and the other is
actions after the goal was achieved.

Let me elaborate on little on those old ideas. A couple days before the
assassination Warren Castor brought two rifles into the TSBD, and showed
it to Bill Shelley outside of Truly`s office...

Mr. BALL. Do you recall seeing a couple of guns in the Texas School Book
Depository Building on the 20th of November 1963?
Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. SHELLEY. Just outside Mr. Truly's office on the will-call counter.
Mr. BALL. And how did they get there?
Mr. SHELLEY. Mr. Warren Caster had just purchased them and brought them in
and stopped by to see us.
Mr. BALL. Did you handle the guns?
Mr. SHELLEY. I held the .22.

Now it seems Oswald either heard about this, or witnessed this, because
the event is mentioned in Fritz`s notes.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=29103#relPageId=3&tab=page

Looks to be...

"don`t own rifle. Saw one at Bldg. M True and two others"

So it isn`t unheard of for rifles to be in the building, and Oswald is
aware of this. So, if he gets caught with a rifle without a clip he has
certain deniability. Hard to imagine getting a conviction for planning
assassination if they don`t find the clip with bullets, the rifle is a
doorstop without them. Oswald, being in my estimation a cunning commie
might keep the rifle and the bullets separated thinking along these lines.

The other aspect of this is what I mentioned recently, it seems the
flooring crew broke for lunch about 10 of 12. At that time Oswald was in
the upper floors of the TSBD. But Piper said he saw Oswald around 12 on
the first floor. If Oswald`s rifle, bullets and shooting location were all
on the upper floors, why would he go down to the first? The only reason I
can think of for Oswald to visit the first floor would be that one of the
things he needed was on the first, whether it was the rifle, bullets or it
was his first choice as a shooting location.

[Anthony Marsh]

Something like that. The motorcade was running 15 minutes late.
Do you remember any other assassination attempts where the conspirators
arrived too late and missd the chance to kill their victim?

[Anthony Marsh]

That makes no sense. He can't leave loose bullets out on a table in the
Domino Room. They wer already in a magazine which was already in the
rifle. There is no need to go back down.

> Such a quick bullet-retrieving trip could have afforded Oswald the
> opportunity to see James Jarman and Harold Norman as they entered the
> building via the loading dock door at the rear of the TSBD. Oswald would

Now, wait a damn minute. You are admitting that Oswald did see Jarman
and Norman walk through the Domino Room. YOu are a disgrace to all WC
defenders. Never concede anything, ever.

> have then hustled right back up to the sixth floor after grabbing the
> bullets. Time elapsed for such an excursion would likely have been less
> than 3 minutes.
>

At what time? EXACTLY what time? Wuickly enough to be waiting at the
window at 12:15, which is when the limo should be driving by? Isn't that
cutting it a little too close?
Again, please name the other assassin who screwed up and got to the
assassination site too late and the victim got away unharmed.

> * EDIT/FWIW -- Shortly after I posted the above comments, I looked up
> Bud's original 2011 Internet message regarding this topic of Oswald's
> rifle bullets. Here is that message:
>
> "He [Oswald] doesn't need to see them [Jarman & Norman] on the first
> [floor], he only needs to have seen them outside, and heard them come in
> down below him. And it doesn't matter if he did see them on the first

Oh, so now you have Oswald on the sixth floor just HEARING them walk
into the Domino Room? And he KNEW exactly who they were, how? He knew by
the sound of their shoes or something.

> floor, I've always felt it was possible for a smart guy like Oswald to
> keep the bullets apart from the rifle, to allow for deniability if the
> rifle was discovered. If he left the bullets in his jacket pocket in the
> Domino room and went down to retrieve them, he might have seen them
> (although you [Donald Willis] are nowhere near establishing that he did
> with the weak out-of-context nonsense you are trying to use for support).
> You see, it doesn't matter if Oswald was on the first floor then, it

Oh, you mean like Oswald being on the sixth floor and psychically
sensing people walking into the Domino Room 5 floors below? That's your
theory?

> doesn't afford him an alibi, nobody was killed then. It doesn't matter
> when the motorcade was due to arrive, if circumstances prevented Oswald

YOU don't know then the motorcade was due to arrive. YOU don't know why
it was running 15 minutes late.

> from getting to where he hid the rifle, or he had trouble assembling it,
> these things would dictate more than the clock." -- Bud; July 1, 2011
>

I like how you make up Oswald having trouble assembling it. Is that
because there was no screwdriver found? You wouldn't know because you've
never owned a Carcano.

> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.conspiracy.jfk/v2oisNe4bhI/LETkhjjNFY0J
>
>
> ROYELL STORING SAID:
>
> The malarkey above is hilarious. So Oswald is smart enough to hide the
> bullets to HIS rifle, yet he leaves HIS rifle at the scene of the crime
> after killing a POTUS?
>

There is no need to hide the bullets. They stay in the rifle until shot.

>
> DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
>
> Yeah, you're right, he probably should have just walked out the front (or
> back) door of the TSBD carrying the 40-inch Carcano in his hands. Who's
> gonna notice, right?
>

Well, you claim that no one noticed Oswald walking INTO the TSBD
carrrying a 40-inch Carcano in his hands, so you are hypocritical.
Or was it the 38-inch Carcano?

> Is that what you think a Presidential assassin should have done with his
> rifle after having just shot the POTUS?
>

How cruel that you keep wasting all that straw. Think of the poor
farmers in the Midwest.

> ---eyeroll---
>
>
> ROYELL STORING SAID:
>
> And then parks himself inside a theater with absolutely no avenue of
> escape?
>
>
> DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
>
> Yeah, instead of ducking into a nice dark theater, Oswald should have just
> stayed right out there on sunny Jefferson Boulevard, in full view of the
> passing police cars who were searching for Officer Tippit's
> killer....right?
>
> Replay: ---eyeroll---
>
>
> ROYELL STORING SAID:
>
> Regarding possible forgotten bullets, where does the Carcano Clip come
> into this? It would be far easier to already have the bullets in the "now
> you see it, now you don't" Carcano Clip.
>

Well, why don't we rehash why the clip didn't fall out after the last
shot or if some clumsy cop accidentally ejected the last live round in
the clip?

We only wasted about 5,000 messages on it last time. Let's try for a new
record!

The bullet hole in the forehead. Even McAdams is honest to admit that HE
can see it. But oh, not you.

[Anthony Marsh]

Well, you may not know too many other assassinations. Can you remember
another case where an assassin left behind his rifle so that the police
could trace it back to him? James Earl Ray?
Does the KGB do that?
Do you realize that it took authorities several hours to trace the
Carcano back to Oswald. IF Oswald were the shooter he could have been in
Mexico by then.

Well, it WAS Bring Your Rifle to Work Week!



Forget the clip. That is irrelevant.

> assassination if they don`t find the clip with bullets, the rifle is a
> doorstop without them. Oswald, being in my estimation a cunning commie
> might keep the rifle and the bullets separated thinking along these lines.
>
> The other aspect of this is what I mentioned recently, it seems the
> flooring crew broke for lunch about 10 of 12. At that time Oswald was in
> the upper floors of the TSBD. But Piper said he saw Oswald around 12 on
> the first floor. If Oswald`s rifle, bullets and shooting location were all
> on the upper floors, why would he go down to the first? The only reason I
> can think of for Oswald to visit the first floor would be that one of the
> things he needed was on the first, whether it was the rifle, bullets or it
> was his first choice as a shooting location.
>
>
>> DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
>>
>> Yeah, you're right, he probably should have just walked out the front (or
>> back) door of the TSBD carrying the 40-inch Carcano in his hands. Who's
>> gonna notice, right?
>>

No one noticed Oswald walking in with a Carcano.

[Bud]

Has what to do with what?

Had Oswald forgotten the clip Kennedy might have given a speech at the
Trade Mart.

[John Deagle]

Marsh, why don't you explain how George D took Oswald's rifle out of the
garage when he was in Haiti?

[Anthony Marsh]

You make a biased and false assumption that if you find the murder
weapon the owner MUST be the killer. Because never researched other cases.

[Bud]

Had Oswald fled to Mexico you still wouldn`t see that as an indication
of his guilt.

[Steven M. Galbraith]

You think the discovery of Oswald's rifle proves it was the CIA that
killed JFK because the discovery is proof that it was planted.

So here we have evidence of Oswald's involvement and you turn it upside
down and say it's evidence of someone else's involvement.

That make no sense at all and it's why you've spent decades of your life
chasing a non-existent white whale.

[Anthony Marsh]

I didn't say he did. We don't know when Oswald's rifle was taken out of
the garage or by whom. I merely pointed out that DeM KNEW about the
rifle and had connections to the CIA.

[Steven M. Galbraith]

Did DeM know it was in the Paine's garage? DeM knew he had a rifle in
April when Oswald lived elsewhere. How is that evidence of any knowledge
about it seven months later? Adrian Alba said Oswald told him he owned a
rifle. Is that evidence of Alba's involvement?

The evidence we have - not imaginary stuff, not suppositions, not
possibilities but evidence - is that only two people knew the rifle was in
that garage. Marina and Lee.

Marina was never seen at the TSBD. Never.

Lee worked there.

This is called circumstantial evidence. What do you call it?

[Anthony Marsh]

Silly. So if you think Oswald was guilty then why didn't he flee to
Mexico? So by your logic the fact that Oswald DIDN'T flee to Mexico
proves his innocence.

[Anthony Marsh]

No, not directly. The fact that the rifle was used by someone other than
Oswald means someone was framing him. You could claim that it was the
Mafia if you want. But it is more likely the CIA.

> So here we have evidence of Oswald's involvement and you turn it upside
> down and say it's evidence of someone else's involvement.
>

I think that is the way a frame-up works. You plant evidence to make it
point to someone else.

> That make no sense at all and it's why you've spent decades of your life
> chasing a non-existent white whale.
>

So you claim that no one has ever been framed for a crime?
Obviously because you have never studied history. You never heard of the
Dreyfus affair of the 5 Boston bookies.

>



And who said it was WHITE? That's discrimination, man!

[Anthony Marsh]

I never said she was. Stop making up crap.

> Lee worked there.
>
> This is called circumstantial evidence. What do you call it?
>

WEAK.

>
>
>
>

[donald willis]

In his book "Plausible Denial" didn't Lane determine that the CIA provided
the shooter(s)?

[InsideSparta]

On Friday, September 20, 2019 at 8:00:52 PM UTC-7, Anthony Marsh wrote:

Stop lying Tony. Since when has it ever been established as "a fact" that
someone other than Oswald fired his MC rifle from the 6th floor window of
the TSBD? Were the finger and palm prints of someone other than Oswald
found on the rifle? No. Did any person employed at the TSBD ever see a
stranger (or anyone else) carry a rifle or a long package into the TSBD on
11/22/63 other than seeing Oswald do so? No. Can you provide a single
"fact" that proves someone other than Oswald fired that rifle? No.

[Anthony Marsh]

That's one way of putting it. But you did not know Mark Lane and you never
talked to him. I did. We can't make a blanket statement and blame everyone
in the CIA. There are different factions and sections in the CIA. I think
we agreed that it was the Helms section, the Assassination Bureau. He did
not disagree with me that Emilio Satanta was probably the shooter in the
TSBD. I think of it more like them giving up on their hundreds of failed
attempts to assassinate Castro and shifting to an easier target, JFK.

[John Deagle]

We know that Oswald's rifle was planted by Lee, Mrs Paine, Marina, or
Junie? They were the only ones near the garage. Oswald went into the
garage took his rifle Frank Bender did not enter Paine's garage. I want
you to listen to me. I'm going to say this again: Frank Bender did not
have sexual relations with that woman, Mrs. Oswald. He never told anybody
to lie, not a single time; never. These allegations are false.

[bigdog]

That explains a lot.

> We can't make a blanket statement and blame everyone
> in the CIA. There are different factions and sections in the CIA. I think
> we agreed that it was the Helms section,

We?

[Anthony Marsh]

Yes, English. Mark Lane and I.
I was talking aout what Mark Lane and I agreed on.