Question For Anthony Marsh
David Von Pein
If there was no hole in the back of JFK's at all (either entry or
exit), then what causes the forward movement of Kennedy's head between
frames 312 and 313 of the Zapruder Film?
If a bullet (entering the head from behind) didn't cause this forward
movement of JFK's head...what did cause it?:
jblubaugh
> If there was no hole in the back of JFK's at all (either entry or
> exit), then what causes the forward movement of Kennedy's head between
> frames 312 and 313 of the Zapruder Film?
>
> If a bullet (entering the head from behind) didn't cause this forward
> movement of JFK's head...what did cause it?:
>
This question has been answered many times. Everyone in the limo was
moving slightly forward because the car was braking. Simple, end of
story.
JB
Anthony Marsh
>
> If there was no hole in the back of JFK's at all (either entry or
> exit), then what causes the forward movement of Kennedy's head between
> frames 312 and 313 of the Zapruder Film?
>
The limo suddenly slowing down as Alvarez found. We've been over this
hundreds of times, but you never pay attention.
So, what do you think caused all the other passengers to move forward
between frames Z-312 and Z-313? Do you think they were all
simultaneously shot from behind?
WhiskyJoe
Question:
Why does JFK move forward relative not just to the limousine, but to
Jackie?
Check out the following webpage.
http://users.skynet.be/mar/Eng/Headshot/back&left-eng.htm#Sommet
About 40% of the way down the page, it shows the motion picture of
frames 311 through 315.
The motion of Jackie and Connally is insignificant compared to the
sudden motion of JFK's head forward from frames 312 to 313.
Why is this webpage not referred to when anyone claims that everyone
moved forward at frame 313? If this claim was true, would not this
video illustrate the claim?
David Von Pein
>>> "Everyone in the limo was moving slightly forward because the car was
braking. Simple, end of story." <<<
LOL.
Oh, brother!
Accept anything but the obvious truth.
LOL reprise!
David Von Pein
>>> "The limo suddenly slowing down as Alvarez found." <<<
Oh, sure.....that massive and violent "slow down" from 11.2 MPH
(approx.) to 8 MPH (approx.) was enough to practically throw every
limo occupant through the windshield, I'm sure!
It's a wonder everybody in the car wasn't killed as a result of Bill
Greer's sudden 11 MPH to 8 MPH braking action!
I ask -- Can CTers GET much sillier than this with respect to their
incredibly-inane attempts to avoid the obvious?
~El-Oh-El~
Anthony Marsh
You can't even believe your own eyes. You must think the Zapruder film
is fake then.
Anthony Marsh
Not everyone moved forward at exactly the same speed. It depends on
variables such as partial bracing against the sudden slowdown.
Why haven't you looked at David Wimp's animated GIFs which show the
forward movements of everyone?
Anthony Marsh
>
>
>>>> "The limo suddenly slowing down as Alvarez found."<<<
>
> Oh, sure.....that massive and violent "slow down" from 11.2 MPH
> (approx.) to 8 MPH (approx.) was enough to practically throw every
> limo occupant through the windshield, I'm sure!
>
King of the straw man arguments. We are talking about conservation of
momentum. Only about 4 MPH.
> It's a wonder everybody in the car wasn't killed as a result of Bill
> Greer's sudden 11 MPH to 8 MPH braking action!
>
I never said braking.
> I ask -- Can CTers GET much sillier than this with respect to their
> incredibly-inane attempts to avoid the obvious?
>
So, how do YOU explain the fact that everyone in the limo was moving
forward? You can't see the obvious?
> ~El-Oh-El~
>
David Von Pein
>>> "So, how do YOU explain the fact that everyone in the limo was moving
forward? You can't see the obvious?" <<<
Yeah, right...it just so happens that President Kennedy's head is
exploding and moving rapidly forward at the exact INSTANT he was hit in
the head with the assassin's bullet....but some CTers want to think that
the BULLET striking Kennedy WASN'T the cause of the rapid forward movement
of Kennedy's head between Z312 and Z313.
Now THAT'S true-blue denial, kids. And a really bad case of it, too.
Can you just hear the defense attorney trying to get a jury to swallow
this nonsense? It'd be a scream. Let's listen in to a sample of it......
"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury....we all know that President
Kennedy was shot in the head at Zapruder frame #313...and we can easily
see his head moving very rapidly FORWARD between frames 312 and 313 (i.e.,
the exact INSTANT that JFK is hit in the head with a bullet)...we all know
this...but we here on the defense side of the courtroom want you 12 good
men and women of the jury to believe that something ELSE caused John
Kennedy's head to snap forward very rapidly at the EXACT SAME
ONE-EIGHTEENTH OF A SECOND when he was ALSO being hit in the head with a
rifle bullet....and we think you jurors should seriously consider this
'strawman' argument I'm going to introduce to you now....
"And that strawman is this -- It wasn't the assassin's bullet that
caused the forward movement of John Kennedy's head. It was, instead, the
automobile's SLOWING DOWN from 11 or so MPH to about 8 MPH that caused
JFK's head to pitch forward very quickly between Z312 and Z313! That's
obvious, isn't it?!
"Forget about that bullet hitting him at that EXACT SAME 1/18th of a
second! That's unimportant here! The important thing to remember, ladies
and gentlemen, is this -- We MUST find ways (any way will do!) to AVOID
THE OBVIOUSNESS OF WHAT WE SEE IN THE ZAPRUDER FILM! And we also must (at
all costs!) avoid soiling the skirts of the defendant, Lee H. Oswald!
"Because ANY evidence that leads toward the notion that the
defendant in this case could have possibly fired the shots that killed
John F. Kennedy MUST be automatically turned on its head, and such
evidence MUST always be considered faulty in some manner -- just like this
"head going forward" business.
"Sure, his head moves forward at the EXACT INSTANT he's being killed
with a rifle bullet! But that doesn't have to mean that the BULLET caused
that forward head snap AT THAT EXACT SAME INSTANT, does it? Of course it
doesn't!
"Rule 1A applies in this courtroom of silliness, ladies and
gentlemen....and that rule is this --- "THERE'S NO ROOM FOR OCCAM'S RAZOR
WHEN IT COMES TO THE INVESTIGATION OF THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN
F. KENNEDY"!
"Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. .... We'll now need a 5-minute
bathroom break, Your Honorable Judge Ito....because I can see that jurors
#3 and #10 are about to split a gut with laughter, and their bladders are
also notoriously weak ones." -- JOHNNIE COCHRAN, ESQ.
Anthony Marsh
>
>
>>>> "So, how do YOU explain the fact that everyone in the limo was moving
> forward? You can't see the obvious?"<<<
>
>
> Yeah, right...it just so happens that President Kennedy's head is
> exploding and moving rapidly forward at the exact INSTANT he was hit in
> the head with the assassin's bullet....but some CTers want to think that
> the BULLET striking Kennedy WASN'T the cause of the rapid forward movement
> of Kennedy's head between Z312 and Z313.
>
I forget what they call it in classical logic, but what you are doing is
ONLY looking at a small slice. You ignore the fact that Kennedy and
everyone else was moving forward BEFORE the head shot.
> Now THAT'S true-blue denial, kids. And a really bad case of it, too.
>
> Can you just hear the defense attorney trying to get a jury to swallow
> this nonsense? It'd be a scream. Let's listen in to a sample of it......
>
> "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury....we all know that President
> Kennedy was shot in the head at Zapruder frame #313...and we can easily
> see his head moving very rapidly FORWARD between frames 312 and 313 (i.e.,
> the exact INSTANT that JFK is hit in the head with a bullet)...we all know
> this...but we here on the defense side of the courtroom want you 12 good
> men and women of the jury to believe that something ELSE caused John
> Kennedy's head to snap forward very rapidly at the EXACT SAME
> ONE-EIGHTEENTH OF A SECOND when he was ALSO being hit in the head with a
> rifle bullet....and we think you jurors should seriously consider this
> 'strawman' argument I'm going to introduce to you now....
>
And he would be lying. The forward movement was not just at the same
exact 1/18th of a second. It started several frame before the head shot.
David Von Pein
The denial exhibited by CTers is staggering.
It's to be expected, of course...but it's still "staggering"
nonetheless.
jblubaugh
How about the denial shown by LNs, is that also "staggering"?
As you point out, I suppose it is to be expected too.
JB
David Von Pein
>>> "How about the denial shown by LNs, is that also "staggering"?" <<<
You mean when LNers "deny" the notion that a multi-shooter conspiracy
ended the life of John Kennedy (seeing as how there's no proof of such
a multi-gun plot whatsoever)?
Is that the kind of "denial" you mean?
If it is, then yes...I'm in denial.
Robert Harris
David, I love how you guys are so eager to take on the Marsh's and
Rossley's of the world.
But why don't you want to "challenge" me?
Robert Harris
In article
<e3bbc163-2f78-4709...@y13g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
Robert Harris
<38fd0095-e8f6-47e0...@k2g2000yql.googlegroups.com>,
David Von Pein <davev...@aol.com> wrote:
The slowdown was actually from about 14mph to 8.
Greer testified that he was turned around when he heard the second shot,
and its "concussion", apparently on his face.
I wonder if that had anything to do with his head spinning back and
forth so fast and him slowing the limo at about Z300.
What do you think David?
What could have caused that?
Robert Harris
David Von Pein
Robert,
You actually think that a car slowing from an already-incredibly-slow
14 MPH to 8 MPH would actually have the effect that you CTers want to
invent in this case for JFK's moving sharply forward between Z312 &
Z313?
Get real.
And after getting "real", then try to calculate the odds of JFK
getting hit by a bullet in the head at the exact same instant when
SOMETHING ELSE UNRELATED TO THE BULLET THAT HAS JUST HIT HIM is
causing Kennedy's head to rock noticeably forward 2 to 3 inches.
Those must by "O.J." odds, in favor of "virtually impossible".
Anthony Marsh
> In article
> <38fd0095-e8f6-47e0...@k2g2000yql.googlegroups.com>,
> David Von Pein<davev...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>>>> "The limo suddenly slowing down as Alvarez found."<<<
>>
>> Oh, sure.....that massive and violent "slow down" from 11.2 MPH
>> (approx.) to 8 MPH (approx.) was enough to practically throw every
>> limo occupant through the windshield, I'm sure!
>>
>> It's a wonder everybody in the car wasn't killed as a result of Bill
>> Greer's sudden 11 MPH to 8 MPH braking action!
>>
>> I ask -- Can CTers GET much sillier than this with respect to their
>> incredibly-inane attempts to avoid the obvious?
>>
>> ~El-Oh-El~
>
> The slowdown was actually from about 14mph to 8.
>
Show me your math to refuse Alvarez. Just your saying something does not
make it a fact.
> Greer testified that he was turned around when he heard the second shot,
> and its "concussion", apparently on his face.
>
Yeah, maybe second shot he HEARD. Apparently he heard the last shot from
the TSBD hitting the chrome topping.
> I wonder if that had anything to do with his head spinning back and
> forth so fast and him slowing the limo at about Z300.
>
No spinning and no fast.
> What do you think David?
>
> What could have caused that?
>
>
Caused what? Illusions in your mind?
>
>
>
> Robert Harris
>
Anthony Marsh
>
> Robert,
>
> You actually think that a car slowing from an already-incredibly-slow
> 14 MPH to 8 MPH would actually have the effect that you CTers want to
> invent in this case for JFK's moving sharply forward between Z312&
> Z313?
>
> Get real.
>
> And after getting "real", then try to calculate the odds of JFK
> getting hit by a bullet in the head at the exact same instant when
> SOMETHING ELSE UNRELATED TO THE BULLET THAT HAS JUST HIT HIM is
> causing Kennedy's head to rock noticeably forward 2 to 3 inches.
>
Try to calculate the odds that everyone else in the limo would be moving
forward at about the same time and at the same rate? Were they all shot in
the back of the head? If not, then another underlying cause is at work.
Robert Harris
<2324aaab-b608-4ba4...@a7g2000yqk.googlegroups.com>,
David Von Pein <davev...@aol.com> wrote:
> Robert,
>
> You actually think that a car slowing from an already-incredibly-slow
> 14 MPH to 8 MPH would actually have the effect that you CTers want to
> invent in this case for JFK's moving sharply forward between Z312 &
> Z313?
I said nothing of the kind.
Did you mean to reply to a different post?
There is one and only one reason I said what I did - because it is true.
The limo did slow down from about 14 to 8 mph.
You need to lose this adversarial mindset, David.
>
> Get real.
>
> And after getting "real", then try to calculate the odds of JFK
> getting hit by a bullet in the head at the exact same instant when
> SOMETHING ELSE UNRELATED TO THE BULLET THAT HAS JUST HIT HIM is
> causing Kennedy's head to rock noticeably forward 2 to 3 inches.
David, I have been saying for 14 years, that JFK was hit from the rear,
at 312. Are you sharing your usenet account with someone?
Like Zapruder, Clint Hill, and every nonvictim in the limo, Greer was
reacting to a shot fired a fraction of a second early, at frame 285. You
NEED to watch the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ql6VqZDiC6s
This is NOT a theory David. It is precisely what happened.
Robert Harris
Robert Harris
In article <49eb...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu>,
Anthony Marsh <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote:
> On 4/19/2009 10:08 AM, Robert Harris wrote:
> > In article
> > <38fd0095-e8f6-47e0...@k2g2000yql.googlegroups.com>,
> > David Von Pein<davev...@aol.com> wrote:
> >
> >>>>> "The limo suddenly slowing down as Alvarez found."<<<
> >>
> >> Oh, sure.....that massive and violent "slow down" from 11.2 MPH
> >> (approx.) to 8 MPH (approx.) was enough to practically throw every
> >> limo occupant through the windshield, I'm sure!
> >>
> >> It's a wonder everybody in the car wasn't killed as a result of Bill
> >> Greer's sudden 11 MPH to 8 MPH braking action!
> >>
> >> I ask -- Can CTers GET much sillier than this with respect to their
> >> incredibly-inane attempts to avoid the obvious?
> >>
> >> ~El-Oh-El~
> >
> > The slowdown was actually from about 14mph to 8.
> >
>
> Show me your math to refuse Alvarez. Just your saying something does not
> make it a fact.
Tony, you are wrong again.
Alvarez said the limo travelled at an "average" speed of 12mph between
260 and 299.
But if you look at his chart, you will see the same thing that more
meticulous researchers see in the film - that there was a slight
acceleration during that time, during which the limo accelerated to
faster than 12mph.
Of course, none of that had anything to do with JFK's head motion. If it
had, he would have been thrown forward, prior to 313.
>
> > Greer testified that he was turned around when he heard the second shot,
> > and its "concussion", apparently on his face.
> >
>
> Yeah, maybe second shot he HEARD. Apparently he heard the last shot from
> the TSBD hitting the chrome topping.
Nonsense - he said nothing even remotely like that.
>
> > I wonder if that had anything to do with his head spinning back and
> > forth so fast and him slowing the limo at about Z300.
> >
>
> No spinning and no fast.
Tony, you need to find a decent copy of the Zapruder film and look at
it:-)
There are several excellent copies at my website at jfkhistory.com
Robert Harris
Anthony Marsh
> In article<49eb...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu>,
> Anthony Marsh<anthon...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> On 4/19/2009 10:08 AM, Robert Harris wrote:
>>> In article
>>> <38fd0095-e8f6-47e0...@k2g2000yql.googlegroups.com>,
>>> David Von Pein<davev...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>> "The limo suddenly slowing down as Alvarez found."<<<
>>>>
>>>> Oh, sure.....that massive and violent "slow down" from 11.2 MPH
>>>> (approx.) to 8 MPH (approx.) was enough to practically throw every
>>>> limo occupant through the windshield, I'm sure!
>>>>
>>>> It's a wonder everybody in the car wasn't killed as a result of Bill
>>>> Greer's sudden 11 MPH to 8 MPH braking action!
>>>>
>>>> I ask -- Can CTers GET much sillier than this with respect to their
>>>> incredibly-inane attempts to avoid the obvious?
>>>>
>>>> ~El-Oh-El~
>>>
>>> The slowdown was actually from about 14mph to 8.
>>>
>>
>> Show me your math to refuse Alvarez. Just your saying something does not
>> make it a fact.
>
> Tony, you are wrong again.
>
> Alvarez said the limo travelled at an "average" speed of 12mph between
> 260 and 299.
>
That is not at all what Alvarez said. He said the limo speed was about
12 MPH just before Z-300 and then about 8 MPH just after Z-300.
> But if you look at his chart, you will see the same thing that more
> meticulous researchers see in the film - that there was a slight
> acceleration during that time, during which the limo accelerated to
> faster than 12mph.
>
Oh yeah, look at the chart Mark Lane produced in Citizen's Dissent. The
actual speed varied down Elm and was as slow as 2.5 MPH and as high as
16 MPH at a later point.
> Of course, none of that had anything to do with JFK's head motion. If it
> had, he would have been thrown forward, prior to 313.
>
>>
>>> Greer testified that he was turned around when he heard the second shot,
>>> and its "concussion", apparently on his face.
>>>
>>
>> Yeah, maybe second shot he HEARD. Apparently he heard the last shot from
>> the TSBD hitting the chrome topping.
>
> Nonsense - he said nothing even remotely like that.
>
He doesn't have to say it. I am saying that most like is the case.
>>
>>> I wonder if that had anything to do with his head spinning back and
>>> forth so fast and him slowing the limo at about Z300.
>>>
>>
>> No spinning and no fast.
>
> Tony, you need to find a decent copy of the Zapruder film and look at
> it:-)
>
> There are several excellent copies at my website at jfkhistory.com
>
>
You mean you don't have the MPI film?
Ritchie Linton
"David Von Pein" <davev...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:e3bbc163-2f78-4709...@y13g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
If there was no hole in the back of JFK's at all (either entry or exit),
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Whereas there was,so the predicate"if" has no meaning
rendering the rest invalid.Now if U want to talk about why the "opening in
the back" was "probed to no exit",pray do continue. Ritchie
Anthony Marsh
> Another invalid question,asking:
> "David Von Pein"<davev...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:e3bbc163-2f78-4709...@y13g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
>
> If there was no hole in the back of JFK's at all (either entry or exit),
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Whereas there was,so the predicate"if" has no meaning
> rendering the rest invalid.Now if U want to talk about why the "opening in
> the back" was "probed to no exit",pray do continue. Ritchie
>
No, there was no hole on the back of Kennedy's head. Only a dab of
tissue which they mistook for an entrance wound.
>
> ard movement of Kennedy's head between
> frames 312 and 313 of the Zapruder Film?
>
> If a bullet (entering the head from behind) didn't cause this forward
> movement of JFK's head...what did cause it?:
>
The limo suddenly slowing down, throwing all the occupants forward.