Lee Harvey Oswald feasibly had no consistent Rifle Practice

[Carmine Savastano]

(A rebuttal of portions of the President's (Warren) Commission findings)

Despite supporting suppressed evidence and a feasibly small conspiracy, I do not support that most official evidence is tainted. However, key moments and official assertions are deficient in my view. Namely, the assertion by the Commission that Lee Harvey Oswald regularly practiced with his Carcano rifle. i. This idea while supported by many critics of conspiracy is not as reliable as some imagine.

In 1956, Lee Harvey Oswald achieved the rank of Sharpshooter once; officials consider this "a rather poor shot". Yet in 1959, Oswald once qualified for the rank of Marksman, and this is considered "a fairly good shot". ii. This would infer with increased practice and Marine instruction Oswald was able to hone his abilities. Yet it also reveals that without the regular practice or instruction, Oswald feasibly would revert to his prior "poor shot" status. Years pass with little evidence Oswald ever attempted to regain his former proficiency. Officials note Oswald hunting with his brother only three times before he leaves for Russia. iii.

After his arriving in Russia Oswald did join a hunting club according to Marina, but never went the practice meetings. iv. During his stay in Russia, Oswald hunts "about six times." v. Oswald went on a single hunting trip with Marina; he did not want to take the rifle along. Mariana asserts he took the rifle because "...one of my friends was laughing at him and said," You have a gun hanging here and you never use it. Why don't you bring it along and see if you can use it." vi.{cke_protected_1}

Marina later asserts he sold the hunting rifle upon his return to America. Oswald goes hunting a final time with his brother Robert using a borrowed rifle. During his years since leaving the Marines, he has actually fired a rifle on less than a dozen occasions. This does not resemble the highly proficient status critics attribute to Oswald.

The Commission states distributor Crescent Firearms shipped the Carcano to Klein's Sporting Goods to have a scope mounted. It was a surplus military rifle, yet it did undergo a refurbishment and was test fired and found to be in working order and priced at 19.95. According to the Commission, the Carcano is shipped to A. Hidell. The rifle is sent to Texas on March 20, 1963. vii. Additionally, considering 2-7 days for delivery, Oswald received the weapon no earlier than March 22. On September 24, the Carcano was stored in Paine's garage wrapped in a blanket. viii. Thus, Oswald only had 6 months in which to practice.

Officials state Oswald fired at General Walker on April 10, 1963. This would imply Oswald had less than 18 days to prepare. He according to the Commission made the attempt and failed. He allegedly made a single missed shot upon the stationary Walker with time to aim. Marina further states Oswald buried and left the rifle multiple times before and after the Walker attack. These burials remove additional time.

Marina stated during testimony to the Commission that Oswald and she had a domestic incident about "10 to 12 days" after the Walker shooting. It occurs three days before they left for New Orleans. ix. Marina does not observe him with the weapon again until the summer of 1963. x. The Oswald family moves to New Orleans. Excluding the move time, Oswald now has just about 5 months left.

In New Orleans, many of his well-documented activities include, handing out fliers for the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, yet Oswald never attended a meeting. Federal Bureau of Investigations files reveal the group held all meetings in New York, no chapter existed in New Orleans, and Oswald was not a member. xi. He allegedly went to political meetings, possibly staged a public brawl, and faces arrest. Oswald requests and subsequently was interviewed by an agent of the FBI. No witness observes him firing a rifle in New Orleans.

The Commission states, "It appears from Mariana's testimony that Oswald may have sat on a screened in porch at night practicing with a telescopic sight and operating the bolt." xii. However, the infrequent dry firing that "may have" occurred is not practice. If Oswald dry fired on a consistent basis weekly it would offer advantages. Yet according to the only witness and the Commission's evidence, he did not. According to Marina Oswald when Bureau agents originally ask her in December if she observed Lee "practice" anywhere beyond the porch, Marina answered "in the negative". xiii
Oswald and his family then return to Dallas, it is now September; Oswald has less than 24 days left to consistently practice. Marina states "Lee didn't tell me when he was going out to practice. I only remember one time distinctly that he went out because he took the bus." xiv. Subsequently Marina testifies, "I don't know where he practiced. I just think the bus goes to, went to Love Field." Commission Lead Counsel Rankin states "So the record will be clear on this...investigation has shown there is one place in the immediate neighborhood where there is gun practice carried on." However, if this is the case, it is merely a single occasion, not regular practice. xv.

Indeed Marina did testify that Oswald stated he was practicing with the rifle. Yet the evidence for this is not present. Consider that Oswald denied his guilt and ownership of the Carcano. Oswald also claimed to be a patsy, thus his many contending statements do infer he is not a credible witness in my view. Reasonably, we cannot value his word over the consistent evidence.

The statement of George De Mohrenschildt similar to Marina relies on Oswald's credibility. xvi We largely have Oswald's word he practiced, and that is not sufficient evidence. The Carcano is stored within a blanket according to Mr. Paine and Marina Oswald. Oswald travels to and from Mexico City and is out of time for practice.

An FBI interview claimed Oswald was "observed" practicing at a local Dallas rifle range repeatedly in November. However the Commission would later dispel these claims, "...there was other evidence which prevented the Commission from reaching the conclusion that Lee Harvey Oswald the person these witnesses saw." xvii Oswald takes the concealed rifle and the morning of the assassination feasibly opens the blanket. Fibers noted on the Carcano found by investigators match the shirt Oswald is wearing on November 22, 1963. These fibers are clean and infer recent material transfer. xviii This forensic evidence supports the rifle has remained covered.

Despite the prior refurbishment Commission officials questioned, "Was the firing pin of the rifle replaced? Does the FBI know the availability of spare parts?" J. Edgar Hoover advises, "The assassination rifle has been examined and nothing was found to indicate that the firing pin had been replaced." Hoover also noted "the firing pin has been used extensively as shown by wear on the nose...further, the presence of rust...this rust would have been disturbed had the firing pin been changed subsequent to the formation of rust...the firing pin and spring are well oiled and the rust present necessarily must have formed prior to the oiling of these parts." xix

The residue and use the Commission attributes to Oswald was also from prior use. Evidence and testimony agree Oswald cleaned the weapon far more than he used it. Commission evidence demonstrates Oswald did not regularly use or practice with the Carcano. This inconsistency supports Oswald is a deficient sniper.

Sincerely,

C. A. A. Savastano

i. Report of the President's Commission, Chapter IV, the Assassin, Oswald's Rifle Capability, p. 195

ii. Report of the President's Commission, Chapter IV, the Assassin, Oswald's Marine Training, p. 191

iii. Report of the Pres. Com., Chapter IV, Oswald's Rifle Practice Outside the Marines, p. 192

iv. Hearings of the President's Commission, Volume V, Testimony of Mrs. Lee Oswald, p. 405

v. Report of the Pres. Com, Chapter IV, p.192

vi. Hearings of the Pres. Com., Vol. V, p. 406

vii. Report of the Pres. Com., Chapter IV, p.121

viii. Ibid, p. 128

ix. Hearings of the Pres. Com., Volume V, p.392

x. Report of the Pres. Com., Chapter IV, p.128

xi. Department of the Treasury Document, Secret Service Phone Report of ASAIC George Jukes, November 25, 1963, p. 0369

xii. Hearings of the President's Commission, Volume XXIII, Commission Exhibit No. 1789, 1790, pp. 402,403

xiii. Hearings of the President's Commission, Volume XXIII, Commission Ex. No. 1789, 1790, pp. 402,403

xiv. Hearings of the Pres. Com., Volume V, p. 397

xv. Ibid, p. 398

xvi. Report of the Pres. Com., Chapter IV, p. 192

xvii. Report of the Pres. Com., Chapter VI, Investigation of Other Activities, pp. 318-320

xviii. Report of the Pres. Com., IV, p.124-125

xix. Hearings of the President's Commission, Volume XXVI, Commission Exhibit 2974, p. 455

[Carmine Savastano]

Correction: The article should state Lee Harvey Oswald was a Marksman
first then a Sharpshooter afterward.

[mainframetech]

Carmine, Regardless of what the WC might say, in the military the
'sharpshooter' award is higher than the 'marksman' award, and requires
better shooting. It suggests a lack of interest or that the
'sharpshooter' level was a fluke that one time.

My own experience in the service with the M-1 rifle, was that our
company was split into 2 groups. One group would go to the firing line
and ready their rifles, the other group would march off to the butts and
be assigned to targets to pull them up and down and place markers on them,
and also mark the scores for the shooter on their target. My experience
was that some guys 'helped' a failing buddy to pass the testing by marking
the score better than the person shot. Given the history of Oswald's lack
of ability with a rifle told by Sgt. Delgado, Oswald's buddy from the
marines, it's easy to surmise that Oswald had the same kind of help that I
saw.

Here's the statement of Sgt. Delgado, and if you go to 3:50 you'll also
see where the FBI wanted him to change his statement and say that Oswald
was a good shot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nS9Zi0B60lw

Chris

[stevemg...@yahoo.com]

On Friday, July 18, 2014 9:18:08 AM UTC-5, Carmine Savastano wrote:
> Correction: The article should state Lee Harvey Oswald was a Marksman
>
> first then a Sharpshooter afterward.

No, he qualified as a Sharpshooter first (a 212) and in his second test
qualified as a Marksman (a 191).

It's a secondary argument, in my view, because the question is whether he
showed in his life the ability to do what was done. The record shows he
did.

Only two people had knowledge of the location of the rifle that was used
to kill JFK: Marina Oswald and Lee Oswald. No one else.

Marina was in Ft. Worth at the time of the shooting. Oswald was in Dallas.
In the building where someone fired shots. With his gun.

[bigdog]

On Friday, July 18, 2014 12:14:04 AM UTC-4, Carmine Savastano wrote:

> (A rebuttal of portions of the President's (Warren) Commission findings)
>
> Despite supporting suppressed evidence and a feasibly small conspiracy, I do not support that most official evidence is tainted. However, key moments and official assertions are deficient in my view. Namely, the assertion by the Commission that Lee Harvey Oswald regularly practiced with his Carcano rifle. i. This idea while supported by many critics of conspiracy is not as reliable as some imagine.
>
> In 1956, Lee Harvey Oswald achieved the rank of Sharpshooter once; officials consider this "a rather poor shot". Yet in 1959, Oswald once qualified for the rank of Marksman, and this is considered "a fairly good shot". ii. This would infer with increased practice and Marine instruction Oswald was able to hone his abilities. Yet it also reveals that without the regular practice or instruction, Oswald feasibly would revert to his prior "poor shot" status. Years pass with little evidence Oswald ever attempted to regain his former proficiency. Officials note Oswald hunting with his brother only three times before he leaves for Russia. iii.

Actually, you have this backward. Sharpshooter is the higher ranking and required considerable skill. Marksman is the USMC's lowest QUALIFYING ranking which means he was "a rather poor shot" as compared to fellow Marines, but still good enough to qualify.

>
> After his arriving in Russia Oswald did join a hunting club according to Marina, but never went the practice meetings. iv. During his stay in Russia, Oswald hunts "about six times." v. Oswald went on a single hunting trip with Marina; he did not want to take the rifle along. Mariana asserts he took the rifle because "...one of my friends was laughing at him and said," You have a gun hanging here and you never use it. Why don't you bring it along and see if you can use it." vi.{cke_protected_1}
>
> Marina later asserts he sold the hunting rifle upon his return to America. Oswald goes hunting a final time with his brother Robert using a borrowed rifle. During his years since leaving the Marines, he has actually fired a rifle on less than a dozen occasions. This does not resemble the highly proficient status critics attribute to Oswald.
>

We don't know how many times Oswald fired a rifle because to know that, there would have to be documentation of every time he did that which of course there wouldn't be. The anecdotal evidence tells us about specific times he fired a rifle but can't tell us whether or not there were other times. If he went off on his own to practice with his Carcano or some other rifle, there would be no record of it.

> The Commission states distributor Crescent Firearms shipped the Carcano to Klein's Sporting Goods to have a scope mounted. It was a surplus military rifle, yet it did undergo a refurbishment and was test fired and found to be in working order and priced at 19.95. According to the Commission, the Carcano is shipped to A. Hidell. The rifle is sent to Texas on March 20, 1963. vii. Additionally, considering 2-7 days for delivery, Oswald received the weapon no earlier than March 22. On September 24, the Carcano was stored in Paine's garage wrapped in a blanket. viii. Thus, Oswald only had 6 months in which to practice.
>

Plenty of time to hone skills previously learned.

>
> Officials state Oswald fired at General Walker on April 10, 1963. This would imply Oswald had less than 18 days to prepare. He according to the Commission made the attempt and failed. He allegedly made a single missed shot upon the stationary Walker with time to aim. Marina further states Oswald buried and left the rifle multiple times before and after the Walker attack. These burials remove additional time.
>

But we don't know how much time.

>
> Marina stated during testimony to the Commission that Oswald and she had a domestic incident about "10 to 12 days" after the Walker shooting. It occurs three days before they left for New Orleans. ix. Marina does not observe him with the weapon again until the summer of 1963. x. The Oswald family moves to New Orleans. Excluding the move time, Oswald now has just about 5 months left.
>

The fact that Marina didn't observe him with the rifle does not mean he didn't practice with the rifle that went unobserved by Marina. The amount of time Oswald practiced is an unknown. Even if his practice time was limited, that is no reason to believe he could not have pulled off the shots. Being a little rusty doesn't mean his skills had completely deteriorated or that he forgot what he had been trained to do by the USMC.

As a golfer in a northern state, the golf season is roughly 6 months long. That means we go at least 6 months without playing at all, yet the first time we go out to play at the beginning of a new season, we often play reasonably well. Usually the round is a mixture of poor shots, fair shots, good shots and a few great ones. And having done both, I can tell you firing a rifle is much easier then trying to send a little white ball toward a target.

>
>
> In New Orleans, many of his well-documented activities include, handing out fliers for the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, yet Oswald never attended a meeting. Federal Bureau of Investigations files reveal the group held all meetings in New York, no chapter existed in New Orleans, and Oswald was not a member. xi. He allegedly went to political meetings, possibly staged a public brawl, and faces arrest. Oswald requests and subsequently was interviewed by an agent of the FBI. No witness observes him firing a rifle in New Orleans.
>

Which again doesn't prove whether he did or did not fire his rifle.

>
> The Commission states, "It appears from Mariana's testimony that Oswald may have sat on a screened in porch at night practicing with a telescopic sight and operating the bolt." xii. However, the infrequent dry firing that "may have" occurred is not practice. If Oswald dry fired on a consistent basis weekly it would offer advantages. Yet according to the only witness and the Commission's evidence, he did not. According to Marina Oswald when Bureau agents originally ask her in December if she observed Lee "practice" anywhere beyond the porch, Marina answered "in the negative". xiii
>
> Oswald and his family then return to Dallas, it is now September; Oswald has less than 24 days left to consistently practice. Marina states "Lee didn't tell me when he was going out to practice. I only remember one time distinctly that he went out because he took the bus." xiv. Subsequently Marina testifies, "I don't know where he practiced. I just think the bus goes to, went to Love Field." Commission Lead Counsel Rankin states "So the record will be clear on this...investigation has shown there is one place in the immediate neighborhood where there is gun practice carried on." However, if this is the case, it is merely a single occasion, not regular practice. xv.
>
> Indeed Marina did testify that Oswald stated he was practicing with the rifle. Yet the evidence for this is not present. Consider that Oswald denied his guilt and ownership of the Carcano. Oswald also claimed to be a patsy, thus his many contending statements do infer he is not a credible witness in my view. Reasonably, we cannot value his word over the consistent evidence.
>
> The statement of George De Mohrenschildt similar to Marina relies on Oswald's credibility. xvi We largely have Oswald's word he practiced, and that is not sufficient evidence. The Carcano is stored within a blanket according to Mr. Paine and Marina Oswald. Oswald travels to and from Mexico City and is out of time for practice.
>
> An FBI interview claimed Oswald was "observed" practicing at a local Dallas rifle range repeatedly in November. However the Commission would later dispel these claims, "...there was other evidence which prevented the Commission from reaching the conclusion that Lee Harvey Oswald the person these witnesses saw." xvii Oswald takes the concealed rifle and the morning of the assassination feasibly opens the blanket. Fibers noted on the Carcano found by investigators match the shirt Oswald is wearing on November 22, 1963. These fibers are clean and infer recent material transfer. xviii This forensic evidence supports the rifle has remained covered.
>
>
>
> Despite the prior refurbishment Commission officials questioned, "Was the firing pin of the rifle replaced? Does the FBI know the availability of spare parts?" J. Edgar Hoover advises, "The assassination rifle has been examined and nothing was found to indicate that the firing pin had been replaced." Hoover also noted "the firing pin has been used extensively as shown by wear on the nose...further, the presence of rust...this rust would have been disturbed had the firing pin been changed subsequent to the formation of rust...the firing pin and spring are well oiled and the rust present necessarily must have formed prior to the oiling of these parts." xix
>
>
>
> The residue and use the Commission attributes to Oswald was also from prior use. Evidence and testimony agree Oswald cleaned the weapon far more than he used it. Commission evidence demonstrates Oswald did not regularly use or practice with the Carcano. This inconsistency supports Oswald is a deficient sniper.
>
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
>
>
> C. A. A. Savastano
>

We can account for five 6.5mm rounds. The one Oswald fired at Walker, the
three he fired at JFK, and the one found in the chamber. I've never
purchased Carcano ammo but I have for other rifles and generally they are
sold in boxes of 20 or 25. We don't know where Oswald bought his ammo or
how much he bought, but the fact that only five are accounted for is a
strong indication he fired his rifle at other times. We don't know who
many boxes of ammo he may have purchased, so he may have practiced a
little or lot, we will never know. But he probably did practice some.

[Carmine Savastano]

Chris,

I just wanted to clarify what they said and correct my mistaken
listing. I definitely agree some evidence was suppressed and there is
evidence to support that. Thank you for the additional information to
consider.

[OHLeeRedux]

Lee Oswald was a good enough shot to assassinate JFK. There is your proof.

[Carmine Savastano]

Big Dog and Steve,

I thought I corrected myself on the transposing of the terms,
however I was incorrect about that.

However, we do know the relative time line from the evidence. If you have
contending evidence to support your views I would be happy to review it. I
use evidence because our contentions alone are not enough to be feasible.

[mainframetech]

On Friday, July 18, 2014 10:18:08 AM UTC-4, Carmine Savastano wrote:
> Correction: The article should state Lee Harvey Oswald was a Marksman
>
> first then a Sharpshooter afterward.

Actually, he was a sharpshooter first and then a marksman. He lost
ability over time. That's why I think the first 'sharpshooter' rating was
a fluke or he was helped by a buddy in the butts with the targets and
doing the scoring.

Chris

[mainframetech]

The amount that Oswald practiced is not known, though the evidence
suggests he rarely or never did. Certainly not with the MC rifle.

In Russia we have no idea if the 'hunting parties' were like some
fishing trips where the real purpose is to drink beer and tell stories.
Did he ever bring home anything he shot? We don't hear that.

Oswald had an opportunity to buy ammunition for the MC rifle when he
bought the rifle itself. It was a good deal with the rifle advertisement.
He chose not to buy ammunition at that time, and yet that was his best
time, since he was buying under an assumed name. And the efforts of the
authorities did not turn up ANY place in Dallas where Oswald bought any
ammunition for the odd rifle. The MC rifle type was not that popular and
buying ammunition for it would stand out, yet Oswald didn't buy any.

It may be that the purpose in buying the MC rifle was to impress some
Cubans or others he was trying to get in with, by convincing them he was
the real deal revolutionary with his own rifle. He even had his picture
taken with it, which wasn't his habit.

Since it was doubtful that Oswald bought any ammo for the rifle, and
doubtful that he practiced, which was his general habit, and the rifle was
not in good condition when the FBI got a hold of it, and then when the
army tested it, there is not much chance anyone would try to shoot anyone
with that rifle. If Oswald had done any practicing, he would have
immediately found out that the rifle scope was not working properly, and
the bolt action was sticky and couldn't be worked quickly. He would have
had the rifle repaired before trying to use it to kill someone.

The army had to send the MC rifle to their gunsmith for repairs before
they could shoot it. The scope had to be shimmed to be in proper position
to work. The testers also had to work the bolt for a few minutes to
loosen it up, and it still caused trouble by sticking when they tried to
shoot the rifle rapid-fire.

It's a joke the efforts that are being made to make that rifle the
murder weapon. No bullet from that rifle ever hit anyone or hurt anyone.

Chris

[mainframetech]

On Saturday, July 19, 2014 12:03:26 AM UTC-4, OHLeeRedux wrote:
> Lee Oswald was a good enough shot to assassinate JFK. There is your proof.

Actually, he wasn't. Since he wasn't even on the 6th floor and didn't
buy any ammunition for the MC rifle. Though the FBI had plenty of it...:)

Chris

[mainframetech]

On Friday, July 18, 2014 8:06:56 PM UTC-4, stevemg...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Friday, July 18, 2014 9:18:08 AM UTC-5, Carmine Savastano wrote:
>
> > Correction: The article should state Lee Harvey Oswald was a Marksman
>
> >
>
> > first then a Sharpshooter afterward.
>
>
>
> No, he qualified as a Sharpshooter first (a 212) and in his second test
>
> qualified as a Marksman (a 191).
>
>
>
> It's a secondary argument, in my view, because the question is whether he
>
> showed in his life the ability to do what was done. The record shows he
>
> did.
>

Actually, the record didn't show that. The record actually gets him off
the charges of murder, since he wasn't anywhere near the 6th floor when
the shots rang out.

>
>
> Only two people had knowledge of the location of the rifle that was used
>
> to kill JFK: Marina Oswald and Lee Oswald. No one else.
>

Knowing where a rifle is doesn't make a person guilty of murder.
Oswald was probably the person that took the rifle to work, but not the
one that pointed any rifle out the window.

>
>
> Marina was in Ft. Worth at the time of the shooting. Oswald was in Dallas.
>
> In the building where someone fired shots. With his gun.

Good thing Oswald wasn't also in Ft. Worth or you'd have no theory...:)
But being in Dallas doesn't make a person guilty of murder.

Chris

[Bud]

<snicker> Once you take skill out of the equation and say his results
could have been the result of luck you lose any ground to say Oswald
couldn`t have made the shots on 11-22 due to ability.

>
>
> My own experience in the service with the M-1 rifle, was that our
>
> company was split into 2 groups. One group would go to the firing line
>
> and ready their rifles, the other group would march off to the butts and
>
> be assigned to targets to pull them up and down and place markers on them,
>
> and also mark the scores for the shooter on their target. My experience
>
> was that some guys 'helped' a failing buddy to pass the testing by marking
>
> the score better than the person shot. Given the history of Oswald's lack
>
> of ability with a rifle told by Sgt. Delgado, Oswald's buddy from the
>
> marines, it's easy to surmise that Oswald had the same kind of help that I
>
> saw.

Delgado explained why this wasn`t possible to do when shooting for
record, why don`t you believe a witness you rely on so heavily?

>
>
> Here's the statement of Sgt. Delgado, and if you go to 3:50 you'll also
>
> see where the FBI wanted him to change his statement and say that Oswald
>
> was a good shot.
>
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nS9Zi0B60lw

Edited so much it is impossible to tell what he actually said in context.

[stevemg...@yahoo.com]

Carmine: What is the evidence - based on statements by experts - that one
"loses" his or her ability to fire a rifle that one is familiar with over
time?

I think we all agree - to varying degree - that he didn't "consistently"
practice firing the rifle. Of course, what is consistent? In any case, the
rifle was placed in the Paine garage around late September or early
October (I don't have the exact date handy) when the Oswalds moved from
New Orleans to Dallas/Ft. Worth.

Oswald could have practiced on weekends when he visited Marina. But there
is no evidence he did. So from roughly late Sept./early Oct. to late
November he had no practice, consistent or otherwise. At least that's what
the evidence shows.

So, how much does one lose his shooting ability in two months?

And I'll note again: the rifle was in the Paine's garage. Only Marina and
Lee knew about its location. How, then, did it get from the garage to the
sixth floor of the TSBD on November 22, 1963? Either Marina or Lee brought
it there since the evidence shows no one else knew about it being in the
garage.

[bigdog]

On Saturday, July 19, 2014 10:57:00 AM UTC-4, Carmine Savastano wrote:
> Big Dog and Steve,
>

> However, we do know the relative time line from the evidence. If you have
> contending evidence to support your views I would be happy to review it. I
> use evidence because our contentions alone are not enough to be feasible.

My main point is that there is very little evidence to indicate how much
or how little Oswald practiced with his rifle. That is simply an unknown
factor so is not an argument for or against whether or not he could have
shot JFK. Fortunately, there is a wealth of evidence that indicates that
he did so the question of how much he practiced becomes moot.

[bigdog]

On Saturday, July 19, 2014 12:20:00 PM UTC-4, mainframetech wrote:

> The amount that Oswald practiced is not known, though the evidence
> suggests he rarely or never did. Certainly not with the MC rifle.
>

Really. What evidence would that be?

[bigdog]

On Saturday, July 19, 2014 12:20:22 PM UTC-4, mainframetech wrote:
>
> Actually, he wasn't. Since he wasn't even on the 6th floor and didn't
> buy any ammunition for the MC rifle. Though the FBI had plenty of it...:)
>

How could you possibly know how much Carcano ammo Oswald bought. Gun shops
are not required to keep records of ammo purchases, only gun purchases.
Oswald could have purchased 10,000 rounds and there would be no record of
it.

[BT George]

I agree BD. Common sense would dictate that however he got his ammo. Oz
did not get an odd lot of 5 or 6 when typically sold in batches of 20+.
Also, it is naive to believe we really have so accounted for LHO's every
waking moment that he would not have had at least a few opportunities to
consume those other 15-20 shells a purchased lot would have contained in
some kind of *live* fire practice.

Also, Steve's point is well taken. What *evidence* exists anywhere that
anyone besides Marina or Oz knew the location of that rifle? And since
she was in FW and he in the TSBD, the most logical conclusion is that
nobody "framed" LHO for the shooting, except LHO himself.

...Then of course there's the whole series of lies, incriminating, and/or
"guilty" actions he took before and after the assassination in order to
make sure he was well "patsified"!

BT George

[Bill Clarke]

In article <a2bf013b-8aea-4913...@googlegroups.com>, Carmine
Savastano says...

Top post. Every year after filling their freezers with game hundreds of
thousands of hunters clean their rifles and put them away. Often the
rifles are not touched until the next hunting season when the hunter again
fills his freezer with game. Practice would be nice but it isn't a
absolute requirement.

It is kinda like riding a bike.

Bill Clarke

>(A rebuttal of portions of the President's (Warren) Commission findings)
>

> Despite supporting suppressed evidence and a feasibly small con=
>spiracy, I do not support that most official evidence is tainted. However, =
>key moments and official assertions are deficient in my view. Namely, the a=
>ssertion by the Commission that Lee Harvey Oswald regularly practiced with =
>his Carcano rifle. i. This idea while supported by many critics of conspira=

>cy is not as reliable as some imagine.
>

>In 1956, Lee Harvey Oswald achieved the rank of Sharpshooter once; official=
>s consider this "a rather poor shot". Yet in 1959, Oswald once qualified fo=
>r the rank of Marksman, and this is considered "a fairly good shot". ii. Th=
>is would infer with increased practice and Marine instruction Oswald was ab=
>le to hone his abilities. Yet it also reveals that without the regular prac=
>tice or instruction, Oswald feasibly would revert to his prior "poor shot" =
>status. Years pass with little evidence Oswald ever attempted to regain his=
> former proficiency. Officials note Oswald hunting with his brother only th=
>ree times before he leaves for Russia. iii. =20
>
>After his arriving in Russia Oswald did join a hunting club according to Ma=
>rina, but never went the practice meetings. iv. During his stay in Russia, =
>Oswald hunts "about six times." v. Oswald went on a single hunting trip wit=
>h Marina; he did not want to take the rifle along. Mariana asserts he took =
>the rifle because "...one of my friends was laughing at him and said," You =
>have a gun hanging here and you never use it. Why don't you bring it along =

>and see if you can use it." vi.{cke_protected_1}
>

>Marina later asserts he sold the hunting rifle upon his return to America. =
>Oswald goes hunting a final time with his brother Robert using a borrowed r=
>ifle. During his years since leaving the Marines, he has actually fired a r=
>ifle on less than a dozen occasions. This does not resemble the highly prof=
>icient status critics attribute to Oswald. =20
>
>The Commission states distributor Crescent Firearms shipped the Carcano to =
>Klein's Sporting Goods to have a scope mounted. It was a surplus military r=
>ifle, yet it did undergo a refurbishment and was test fired and found to be=
> in working order and priced at 19.95. According to the Commission, the Car=
>cano is shipped to A. Hidell. The rifle is sent to Texas on March 20, 1963.=
> vii. Additionally, considering 2-7 days for delivery, Oswald received the =
>weapon no earlier than March 22. On September 24, the Carcano was stored in=
> Paine's garage wrapped in a blanket. viii. Thus, Oswald only had 6 months =
>in which to practice.
>
>Officials state Oswald fired at General Walker on April 10, 1963. This woul=
>d imply Oswald had less than 18 days to prepare. He according to the Commis=
>sion made the attempt and failed. He allegedly made a single missed shot up=
>on the stationary Walker with time to aim. Marina further states Oswald bur=
>ied and left the rifle multiple times before and after the Walker attack. T=

>hese burials remove additional time.
>

>Marina stated during testimony to the Commission that Oswald and she had a =
>domestic incident about "10 to 12 days" after the Walker shooting. It occur=
>s three days before they left for New Orleans. ix. Marina does not observe =
>him with the weapon again until the summer of 1963. x. The Oswald family mo=
>ves to New Orleans. Excluding the move time, Oswald now has just about 5 mo=
>nths left.
>
>In New Orleans, many of his well-documented activities include, handing out=
> fliers for the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, yet Oswald never attended a m=
>eeting. Federal Bureau of Investigations files reveal the group held all me=
>etings in New York, no chapter existed in New Orleans, and Oswald was not a=
> member. xi. He allegedly went to political meetings, possibly staged a pub=
>lic brawl, and faces arrest. Oswald requests and subsequently was interview=
>ed by an agent of the FBI. No witness observes him firing a rifle in New Or=
>leans.
>
>The Commission states, "It appears from Mariana's testimony that Oswald may=
> have sat on a screened in porch at night practicing with a telescopic sigh=
>t and operating the bolt." xii. However, the infrequent dry firing that "ma=
>y have" occurred is not practice. If Oswald dry fired on a consistent basis=
> weekly it would offer advantages. Yet according to the only witness and th=
>e Commission's evidence, he did not. According to Marina Oswald when Bureau=
> agents originally ask her in December if she observed Lee "practice" anywh=

>ere beyond the porch, Marina answered "in the negative". xiii

>Oswald and his family then return to Dallas, it is now September; Oswald ha=
>s less than 24 days left to consistently practice. Marina states "Lee didn'=
>t tell me when he was going out to practice. I only remember one time disti=
>nctly that he went out because he took the bus." xiv. Subsequently Marina t=
>estifies, "I don't know where he practiced. I just think the bus goes to, w=
>ent to Love Field." Commission Lead Counsel Rankin states "So the record wi=
>ll be clear on this...investigation has shown there is one place in the imm=
>ediate neighborhood where there is gun practice carried on." However, if th=

>is is the case, it is merely a single occasion, not regular practice. xv.
>

>Indeed Marina did testify that Oswald stated he was practicing with the rif=
>le. Yet the evidence for this is not present. Consider that Oswald denied h=
>is guilt and ownership of the Carcano. Oswald also claimed to be a patsy, t=
>hus his many contending statements do infer he is not a credible witness in=
> my view. Reasonably, we cannot value his word over the consistent evidence=
>.
>
>The statement of George De Mohrenschildt similar to Marina relies on Oswald=
>'s credibility. xvi We largely have Oswald's word he practiced, and that is=
> not sufficient evidence. The Carcano is stored within a blanket according =
>to Mr. Paine and Marina Oswald. Oswald travels to and from Mexico City and =
>is out of time for practice.=20
>
>An FBI interview claimed Oswald was "observed" practicing at a local Dallas=
> rifle range repeatedly in November. However the Commission would later dis=
>pel these claims, "...there was other evidence which prevented the Commissi=
>on from reaching the conclusion that Lee Harvey Oswald the person these wit=
>nesses saw." xvii Oswald takes the concealed rifle and the morning of the a=
>ssassination feasibly opens the blanket. Fibers noted on the Carcano found =
>by investigators match the shirt Oswald is wearing on November 22, 1963. Th=
>ese fibers are clean and infer recent material transfer. xviii This forensi=

>c evidence supports the rifle has remained covered.
>

>Despite the prior refurbishment Commission officials questioned, "Was the f=
>iring pin of the rifle replaced? Does the FBI know the availability of spar=
>e parts?" J. Edgar Hoover advises, "The assassination rifle has been examin=
>ed and nothing was found to indicate that the firing pin had been replaced.=
>" Hoover also noted "the firing pin has been used extensively as shown by w=
>ear on the nose...further, the presence of rust...this rust would have been=
> disturbed had the firing pin been changed subsequent to the formation of r=
>ust...the firing pin and spring are well oiled and the rust present necessa=

>rily must have formed prior to the oiling of these parts." xix
>

>The residue and use the Commission attributes to Oswald was also from prior=
> use. Evidence and testimony agree Oswald cleaned the weapon far more than =
>he used it. Commission evidence demonstrates Oswald did not regularly use o=
>r practice with the Carcano. This inconsistency supports Oswald is a defici=
>ent sniper. =20

>
> Sincerely,
>
>C. A. A. Savastano
>

>i. Report of the President's Commission, Chapter IV, the Assassin, Oswald's=
> Rifle Capability, p. 195
>
>ii. Report of the President's Commission, Chapter IV, the Assassin, Oswald'=

>s Marine Training, p. 191
>

>iii. Report of the Pres. Com., Chapter IV, Oswald's Rifle Practice Outside =
>the Marines, p. 192
>
>iv. Hearings of the President's Commission, Volume V, Testimony of Mrs. Lee=

> Oswald, p. 405
>
>v. Report of the Pres. Com, Chapter IV, p.192
>
>vi. Hearings of the Pres. Com., Vol. V, p. 406
>
>vii. Report of the Pres. Com., Chapter IV, p.121
>
>viii. Ibid, p. 128
>
>ix. Hearings of the Pres. Com., Volume V, p.392
>
>x. Report of the Pres. Com., Chapter IV, p.128
>

>xi. Department of the Treasury Document, Secret Service Phone Report of ASA=
>IC George Jukes, November 25, 1963, p. 0369=20
>
>xii. Hearings of the President's Commission, Volume XXIII, Commission Exhib=

>it No. 1789, 1790, pp. 402,403
>

>xiii. Hearings of the President's Commission, Volume XXIII, Commission Ex. =

>No. 1789, 1790, pp. 402,403
>
>xiv. Hearings of the Pres. Com., Volume V, p. 397
>
>xv. Ibid, p. 398
>
>xvi. Report of the Pres. Com., Chapter IV, p. 192
>

>xvii. Report of the Pres. Com., Chapter VI, Investigation of Other Activiti=
>es, pp. 318-320=20

>
>xviii. Report of the Pres. Com., IV, p.124-125
>

>xix. Hearings of the President's Commission, Volume XXVI, Commission Exhibi=
>t 2974, p. 455
>

[Anthony Marsh]

We don't know when the scope was damaged. It could have been after the
Walker shooting or after the JFK shooting.

> The army had to send the MC rifle to their gunsmith for repairs before
> they could shoot it. The scope had to be shimmed to be in proper position
> to work. The testers also had to work the bolt for a few minutes to
> loosen it up, and it still caused trouble by sticking when they tried to
> shoot the rifle rapid-fire.
>
> It's a joke the efforts that are being made to make that rifle the
> murder weapon. No bullet from that rifle ever hit anyone or hurt anyone.
>

So you think it was only used to damage the limo? To plant evidence by
hitting the limo?

> Chris
>

[Anthony Marsh]

Exactly. Thanks for admitting that you don't know the evidence in this
case. The WCC ammo was sold by boxes of 20. No one could prove where
Oswald bought it.

> how much he bought, but the fact that only five are accounted for is a
> strong indication he fired his rifle at other times. We don't know who
> many boxes of ammo he may have purchased, so he may have practiced a
> little or lot, we will never know. But he probably did practice some.
>

So just for fun why don't you claim that he bought 100 boxes at $5.00
per box. On his unemployment check.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 7/18/2014 8:06 PM, stevemg...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Friday, July 18, 2014 9:18:08 AM UTC-5, Carmine Savastano wrote:
>> Correction: The article should state Lee Harvey Oswald was a Marksman
>>
>> first then a Sharpshooter afterward.
>
> No, he qualified as a Sharpshooter first (a 212) and in his second test
> qualified as a Marksman (a 191).
>
> It's a secondary argument, in my view, because the question is whether he
> showed in his life the ability to do what was done. The record shows he
> did.
>

But he couldn't hit a stationary target at 120 feet?

> Only two people had knowledge of the location of the rifle that was used
> to kill JFK: Marina Oswald and Lee Oswald. No one else.
>

Demohrenschildt.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 7/19/2014 7:22 PM, BT George wrote:
> I agree BD. Common sense would dictate that however he got his ammo. Oz
> did not get an odd lot of 5 or 6 when typically sold in batches of 20+.
> Also, it is naive to believe we really have so accounted for LHO's every
> waking moment that he would not have had at least a few opportunities to
> consume those other 15-20 shells a purchased lot would have contained in
> some kind of *live* fire practice.
>

I don't think he ate the other 15 so unless you have other unsolved
assassinations Oswald used the other 15 for practice.

[Anthony Marsh]

For $100?

[Carmine Savastano]

Steve,

The evidence I offered from the Commission states that in 1956
Oswald's rifle ability was Sharpshooter, in 1959 he was a Marksman, a
lower qualification. Thus in Oswald's case he did become worse in time.
That in my view does not suggest he practiced and received instruction as
he had prior.

Once he had left the Marines, his time was often used for many things but
practice is not one of them. The proficiency officials contend is not
magical, it require consistent practice to maintain, practice the evidence
thus far has not revealed. However, it is possible, yet I do not contend
it is impossible just improbable based on evidence.

Your imply it was only 2 months, but Oswald dry firing on occasion in New
Orleans is not practice. It was months before he returned to Dallas and 24
days before he stored the weapon, thus he had no recent practice in my
view.

I agree the Carcano was in the Paine garage and that is part of Oswald's
problem.

Bill,

While some may think practice is not required, I disagree based upon
the evidence. Consider that the practiced rifle experts from the Army
could only recreate his shots once in many attempts. These were not simple
shots and unpracticed sniper could make with ease.

[mainframetech]

The odds are that Oswald took the rifle to the TSBD, but the reason he
was given to do it might have been anything, like to trade it, to sell it,
or to show it.

How many gun shops or stores that sold ammunition existed in Dallas of
1963? They checked for them and couldn't find one that sold anything to
anyone that looked like Oswald. This ammunition was not your standard
stuff either. As the whole story hit the papers and TV, don't you think
that the seller of ammunition would come forth and report the sale to
Oswald? If only for the advertising?

No seller turned up, and so Oswald didn't practice with the MC rifle.
The scope was also a problem, and if Oswald had practiced, he would have
found out that the scope needed fixing and had it done. Another reason
that we know that he didn't practice. Can't kill a president with a rifle
that can't be aimed.

No ammunition box was ever found either,. and the rifle was only loaded
with 4-5 cartridges, when it could hold 6. And no one wonders!

Chris

[mainframetech]

To find where he bought the ammunition would be important to a criminal
case, but they couldn't find any place in Dallas where they sold that odd
type ammo to anyone like Oswald. And you can be sure they looked. Given
his low resources, he wouldn't be able to afford much ammo anyway.
Remember that the advertisement that he bought his rifle from offered
ammunition for the MC rifle, but he turned it down.

http://www.milsurps.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=42647&d=1366926484

The ad offered a free clip and 108 rounds of ammo at about .07 cents
per cartridge! And yet Oswald didn't take the deal, even though he was
buying it under an assumed name! He just didn't need ammo, since the gun
was only for show to impress Cubans or whoever that he was a serious
rebel...:)

Chris

[mainframetech]

See the previous post, the answer is there. He didn't practice.

Chris

[mainframetech]

Baloney! There is plenty of evidence but you don't want to talk about
it. The rifle had a badly mounted scope and you couldn't aim it until the
scope was fixed, which it wasn't until the army got a hold of it and sent
it to the gunsmith, who shimmed up one of the mounting points.

The FBI also found that the scope was incorrect. If Oswald had
practiced with the MC rifle, he would have seen the scope problem and had
it fixed, but that wasn't the case, so he must not have practiced with the
MC rifle at all.

When they found the MC rifle they looked all over Dallas for where the
ammunition might have been bought, and couldn't find any place. And the
MC rifle ammunition wasn't a standard kind of ammo, it would have stood
out if sold. So where did he get practice ammo?

Face it. Oswald didn't do any practicing with the MC rifle. The
evidence shows it.

Chris

[mainframetech]

The odds are that Oswald took the rifle to the TSBD, but his reason may
have been many things. To trade it, to sell it, or to show it. They
could easily give him an excuse for bringing it in. Meaning his
government connection could. The rifle was not in any condition to aim
and hit anything, since the scope was incorrectly applied to the rifle and
later needed 2 shims put in on one of the screws to correct it so that the
army could test it. As well, the army also found that the bolt was sticky
and couldn't be used for any rapid firing. The trigger was a
'double-pull' type too. The FBI found the rifle to be "worn and
corroded".

There was NO ammunition for the MC rifle found anywhere where Oswald
might have hid it. They could not find any place in Dallas that sold him
ammunition for the MC rifle, and Oswald turned down the offer of
ammunition that was with the advertisement for the rifle when he bought
it. Ammunition is not sold in lots of 5 cartridges, so there had to be a
cartridge box somewhere with remaining bullets, but the only place that
seemed to have ammunition for the MC rifle was the FBI when they tested
it.

When the rifle was used in the TSBD, the clip could carry 6
cartridges...why didn't it have that many loaded, to be sure? Why was the
clip not recorded for a long time, suggesting there was no clip, although
one turned up later?

Why did Oswald not test or practice with the rifle? If he had, he
would have learned of the faulty scope mounting and have it fixed, but he
never did, showing that he never practiced with the rifle. It is my
belief that he bought the MC rifle to impress others as to how committed a
rebel he really was, and the same for the revolver he bought. They were
never intended to shoot anything, only to impress. That's why no
ammunition was bought by Oswald, and why the rifle was in bad condition.
From his marine days they said he never took care of his rifle, and was
bad at shooting. Habits that he carried forward.

Chris

[stevemg...@yahoo.com]

Carmine: Please cite me "officials" or experts who say that consistent
practice - as they define it - is necessary to maintain one's shooting
skills?

I find it difficult to believe, not impossible but difficult, that he
would be practicing dry-firing the rifle on numerous occasions but not
actually practice firing it live. Does that make sense to anyone? Why do
you think he was practicing dry-firing a rifle? Why would any person do
that? Why did he continue to own the rifle? To what end?

The problem in evaluating Oswald's shooting skills - and many other
factors about him - was he lived an isolated life those last few months.
The only sources we have, for the most part, are Marina and Ruth Paine and
to a lesser extent Michael Paine.

The evidence is clear: Oswald showed in the Marines that he was capable of
being a quite accurate shooter. He was also capable of being a poor one.

But the question is: Did Oswald show at any time the ability to pull of
what is alleged he did on November 22, 1963?

Answer: Yes.

Whether he had "consistently" practiced shooting is a secondary matter.

[Jason Burke]

Can you translate that last sentence into something coherent?

Have you LOOKED out the 6th floor window. It's a fairly easy shot. I
could *probably* make it now (well, one outta three,) and I haven't
fired a gun since my college days, some 35 years ago.

[Sandy McCroskey]

On 7/20/14 8:32 PM, mainframetech wrote:
> On Saturday, July 19, 2014 7:20:11 PM UTC-4, bigdog wrote:
>> On Saturday, July 19, 2014 12:20:22 PM UTC-4, mainframetech wrote:
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Actually, he wasn't. Since he wasn't even on the 6th floor and didn't
>>
>>> buy any ammunition for the MC rifle. Though the FBI had plenty of it...:)
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> How could you possibly know how much Carcano ammo Oswald bought. Gun shops
>>
>> are not required to keep records of ammo purchases, only gun purchases.
>>
>> Oswald could have purchased 10,000 rounds and there would be no record of
>>
>> it.
>
>
> To find where he bought the ammunition would be important to a criminal
> case,

Not at all.

/sandy

[mainframetech]

Carmine,
You might find the WC testimony of Robert Frazier of the FBI
interesting as to the condition of the MC rifle when they got it and
tested it the next day after the murder. But even more interesting is the
WC testimony of one Ronald Simmons, army firearms expert. He said that
the scope was so far out of alignment that they sent it to their gunsmith
to apply 2 shims to correct the problem. The rifle couldn't be aimed
properly while in the condition it was in when it was grabbed by the FBI.
As well, the bolt was very sticky and could not have been used for rapid
firing, and the trigger had a double pull, making it more difficult to
also use rapidly.

My suggestion is that Oswald continued his habit of not bothering to
take care of his weapon, and oil it and do the other maintenance task
necessary, so that the original cosmoline or other storage medium was
still slowing down the moving parts from the rifle's past history as war
surplus. Oswald was known in the marines for not taking care of his
weapon, and for getting many 'Maggie's Drawers', which is a red flag waved
in front of a target that was missed altogether, which Oswald was know
for.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nS9Zi0B60lw

Good Luck,
Chris

[mainframetech]

Two experienced snipers said that it was no easy shot, and that it was
not do-able...they were Craig Roberts and Carlos Hathcock. See "Kill
Zone" by Craig Roberts, page 89. Many shooters missed JFK that day.
Bullets were raining down on Dealey Plaza all over the place.

Chris

[Anthony Marsh]

Let me rephrase that.
To find out where he got the ammunition. It was made for the CIA.
If only the CIA had it, that would prove a conspiracy by the CIA.
Remember the fireworks used in the Boston Marathon bomb?
What if they found out that it wasn't bought by the 2 brothers, but
given to them by a friend?
What if some famous bombing used ordinary explosives but the timer was
given to them by an intelligence agency?

> /sandy

[bigdog]

On Saturday, July 19, 2014 7:54:48 PM UTC-4, Anthony Marsh wrote:
>
> We don't know when the scope was damaged. It could have been after the
> Walker shooting or after the JFK shooting.
>

Tony, I wish you would quit saying things I agree with. I find it very
unsettling.

>
> > The army had to send the MC rifle to their gunsmith for repairs before
> > they could shoot it. The scope had to be shimmed to be in proper position
> > to work. The testers also had to work the bolt for a few minutes to
> > loosen it up, and it still caused trouble by sticking when they tried to
> > shoot the rifle rapid-fire.
>
> > It's a joke the efforts that are being made to make that rifle the
> > murder weapon. No bullet from that rifle ever hit anyone or hurt anyone.
>

> So you think it was only used to damage the limo? To plant evidence by
> hitting the limo?
>

Apparently so. Chris believes that for some reason, the conspirators duped
Oswald into bringing a rifle into the TSBD that wasn't capable of hitting
a target. I wonder who he things the limo shooter was?

[bigdog]

>
> > We can account for five 6.5mm rounds. The one Oswald fired at Walker, the
> > three he fired at JFK, and the one found in the chamber. I've never
> > purchased Carcano ammo but I have for other rifles and generally they are
> > sold in boxes of 20 or 25. We don't know where Oswald bought his ammo or
>
> Exactly. Thanks for admitting that you don't know the evidence in this
> case. The WCC ammo was sold by boxes of 20. No one could prove where
> Oswald bought it.
>

Right. As if it is terribly important to know that. I never ceased to be
amazed that you seem to know every bit of minutia of this case and yet
with all that knowledge of the facts, you can't figure out something so
simple as Oswald was the sole shooter. I guess maybe we can blame it on
information overload. You're like the golfer who reads every instruction
book he can get his hands on and knows all of the important fundamentals
of the golf swing, but is unable to make a decent golf swing.

[BT George]

Doubtlessly many were from the 3 story tower that was in the middle of Elm
street, but is no longer visible in the extant Z film and the witness
testimony to it---sadly---has since been successfully repressed.

But have no fear! ...Once ARRB 2050 rolls around the old children of the
original witnesses + 2 remaining centenarians will provide sworn testimony
that at last "blows the lid off" all that stale hard evidence!

BT George

[mainframetech]

Really Sandy M. When are you going to read a post carefully, so that
you can join the discussion rather than throwing out insults?

UIt was explained that they looked through all the gun shops and places
where you can get ammunition, and found none that served Oswald, and the
ammunition he needed was not your standard type for the MC rifle. But
after the murder, there were many TV pics of Oswald and the weapon, and
news of the murder, and yet NO ONE turned up to say they sold that kind of
ammo. I pointed that out, and wondered why Oswald didn't buy ammo WITH
the rifle, since the ad for the rifle offered a good price for 108
cartridges and a free clip, as if the rifle didn't come with a clip.

Try and keep up with the discussion, and spend les time insulting
people.

Chris

[cmikes]

Even for you, that's remarkably silly. You actually believe that a sniper
that routinely made shots out to a thousand yards and more said that an
eighty eight yard shot was difficult? You really will believe anything as
long as supposedly points to the innocence of Saint Oswald, won't you?

And it's a good thing for "them" none of those other bullets hit and
nobody found any of them. Were they special "magic" bullets that
dissolved after 5 minutes?

[bigdog]

On Monday, July 21, 2014 3:17:38 PM UTC-4, mainframetech wrote:

Craig Roberts is the only source for that ridiculous claim.

[bigdog]

On Monday, July 21, 2014 3:17:05 PM UTC-4, mainframetech wrote:
>
> My suggestion is that Oswald continued his habit of not bothering to
> take care of his weapon, and oil it and do the other maintenance task
> necessary, so that the original cosmoline or other storage medium was
> still slowing down the moving parts from the rifle's past history as war
> surplus. Oswald was known in the marines for not taking care of his
> weapon, and for getting many 'Maggie's Drawers', which is a red flag waved
> in front of a target that was missed altogether, which Oswald was know
> for.
>

Yup. Oswald would sometimes completely miss his target. Like he did with
the shot he fired at Walker and the first shot he fired at JFK. However,
he did hit his target enough times to get the job done. Like he did with
the second and third shots he fired at JFK.

[Anthony Marsh]

With that Carcano you couldn't hit the broad side of a barn unless you
were inside the barn shooting out.


>
>

[Anthony Marsh]

So, how well did Oswald do on a stationary target at only 120 feet?
You don't know what you are talking about.
Which is why you are posting here.

[Anthony Marsh]

Well, it WAS Take Your Rifle to Work Week.

> could easily give him an excuse for bringing it in. Meaning his
> government connection could. The rifle was not in any condition to aim
> and hit anything, since the scope was incorrectly applied to the rifle and
> later needed 2 shims put in on one of the screws to correct it so that the
> army could test it. As well, the army also found that the bolt was sticky
> and couldn't be used for any rapid firing. The trigger was a
> 'double-pull' type too. The FBI found the rifle to be "worn and
> corroded".

We don't know for sure what condition the scope was in at the time of
the shooting. You've been corrected on this hundreds of time yet you
keep repeating the same factoid. Which makes you unreliable.

>
> There was NO ammunition for the MC rifle found anywhere where Oswald
> might have hid it. They could not find any place in Dallas that sold him
> ammunition for the MC rifle, and Oswald turned down the offer of

Again, not true. Mason sold that type of ammo.

> ammunition that was with the advertisement for the rifle when he bought
> it. Ammunition is not sold in lots of 5 cartridges, so there had to be a
> cartridge box somewhere with remaining bullets, but the only place that
> seemed to have ammunition for the MC rifle was the FBI when they tested
> it.

Unless he had already fired 15 test shots.

[Anthony Marsh]

Why would he need 108 rounds just to shoot Walker?

> Chris
>

[Anthony Marsh]

We wonder about you all the time.

[Sandy McCroskey]

On 7/21/14 7:39 PM, Anthony Marsh wrote:
> On 7/21/2014 9:38 AM, Sandy McCroskey wrote:
>> On 7/20/14 8:32 PM, mainframetech wrote:
>>> On Saturday, July 19, 2014 7:20:11 PM UTC-4, bigdog wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, July 19, 2014 12:20:22 PM UTC-4, mainframetech wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Actually, he wasn't. Since he wasn't even on the 6th floor and
>>>>> didn't
>>>>
>>>>> buy any ammunition for the MC rifle. Though the FBI had plenty of
>>>>> it...:)
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> How could you possibly know how much Carcano ammo Oswald bought. Gun
>>>> shops
>>>>
>>>> are not required to keep records of ammo purchases, only gun purchases.
>>>>
>>>> Oswald could have purchased 10,000 rounds and there would be no
>>>> record of
>>>>
>>>> it.
>>>
>>>
>>> To find where he bought the ammunition would be important to a
>>> criminal
>>> case,
>>
>> Not at all.
>>
>
> Let me rephrase that.
> To find out where he got the ammunition. It was made for the CIA.

This reeks of CT factoid.
Source?

> If only the CIA had it, that would prove a conspiracy by the CIA.

Big IF.

[Sandy McCroskey]

On 7/21/14 8:17 PM, mainframetech wrote:
> On Monday, July 21, 2014 9:38:50 AM UTC-4, Sandy McCroskey wrote:
>> On 7/20/14 8:32 PM, mainframetech wrote:
>>
>>> On Saturday, July 19, 2014 7:20:11 PM UTC-4, bigdog wrote:
>>
>>>> On Saturday, July 19, 2014 12:20:22 PM UTC-4, mainframetech wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> Actually, he wasn't. Since he wasn't even on the 6th floor and didn't
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> buy any ammunition for the MC rifle. Though the FBI had plenty of it...:)
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> How could you possibly know how much Carcano ammo Oswald bought. Gun shops
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> are not required to keep records of ammo purchases, only gun purchases.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> Oswald could have purchased 10,000 rounds and there would be no record of
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> it.
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>> To find where he bought the ammunition would be important to a criminal
>>
>>> case,
>>
>>
>>
>> Not at all.
>>
>>
>>
>> /sandy
>
>
>
> Really Sandy M. When are you going to read a post carefully, so that
> you can join the discussion rather than throwing out insults?
>
> UIt was explained that they looked through all the gun shops and places
> where you can get ammunition, and found none that served Oswald, and the
> ammunition he needed was not your standard type for the MC rifle. But
> after the murder, there were many TV pics of Oswald and the weapon, and
> news of the murder, and yet NO ONE turned up to say they sold that kind of
> ammo.

Why would anyone remember that?

> I pointed that out, and wondered why Oswald didn't buy ammo WITH
> the rifle, since the ad for the rifle offered a good price for 108
> cartridges and a free clip, as if the rifle didn't come with a clip.
>

We don't *know* that he didn't.
It's as simple as that.

> Try and keep up with the discussion, and spend les time insulting
> people.

Really, take your own advice.


>
> Chris
>

[Sandy McCroskey]

On 7/21/14 9:17 PM, Anthony Marsh wrote:
>
>>
>> There was NO ammunition for the MC rifle found anywhere where Oswald
>> might have hid it. They could not find any place in Dallas that sold him
>> ammunition for the MC rifle, and Oswald turned down the offer of
>
> Again, not true. Mason sold that type of ammo.

So what were you on about a little while ago, defending Chris's
statement that where Oswald bought the ammo would be "important" in a
criminal trial?

[Anthony Marsh]

No. He lied. You believe kooks.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 7/21/2014 3:17 PM, mainframetech wrote:

The Cosmoline was not original and it was cleaned off the rifles at
Crescent Arms.

[Bud]

On Sunday, July 20, 2014 8:31:26 PM UTC-4, mainframetech wrote:
> On Saturday, July 19, 2014 7:22:09 PM UTC-4, BT George wrote:
>
> > I agree BD. Common sense would dictate that however he got his ammo. Oz
>
> >
>
> > did not get an odd lot of 5 or 6 when typically sold in batches of 20+.
>
> >
>
> > Also, it is naive to believe we really have so accounted for LHO's every
>
> >
>
> > waking moment that he would not have had at least a few opportunities to
>
> >
>
> > consume those other 15-20 shells a purchased lot would have contained in
>
> >
>
> > some kind of *live* fire practice.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Also, Steve's point is well taken. What *evidence* exists anywhere that
>
> >
>
> > anyone besides Marina or Oz knew the location of that rifle? And since
>
> >
>
> > she was in FW and he in the TSBD, the most logical conclusion is that
>
> >
>
> > nobody "framed" LHO for the shooting, except LHO himself.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > ...Then of course there's the whole series of lies, incriminating, and/or
>
> >
>
> > "guilty" actions he took before and after the assassination in order to
>
> >
>
> > make sure he was well "patsified"!
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > BT George
>
>
>
>
>
> The odds are that Oswald took the rifle to the TSBD, but the reason he
>
> was given to do it might have been anything, like to trade it, to sell it,
>
> or to show it.

And them doesn`t mention this to anyone.

>
>
> How many gun shops or stores that sold ammunition existed in Dallas of
>
> 1963? They checked for them and couldn't find one that sold anything to
>
> anyone that looked like Oswald. This ammunition was not your standard
>
> stuff either. As the whole story hit the papers and TV, don't you think
>
> that the seller of ammunition would come forth and report the sale to
>
> Oswald? If only for the advertising?

He likely bought the ammo months previously for his first assassination
attempt.

>
>
> No seller turned up, and so Oswald didn't practice with the MC rifle.

Doesn`t follow. Of course nothing you say follows.

>
> The scope was also a problem, and if Oswald had practiced, he would have
>
> found out that the scope needed fixing and had it done.

You assume the problems with the scope didn`t occur during or after tyhe
assassination.

> Another reason
>
> that we know that he didn't practice. Can't kill a president with a rifle
>
> that can't be aimed.

Worked fine.

>
>
> No ammunition box was ever found either,. and the rifle was only loaded
>
> with 4-5 cartridges, when it could hold 6. And no one wonders!

He had plenty of bullets to do what he set out to do.

>
>
> Chris

[OHLeeRedux]

mainframetech needs to make a few dozen more posts spouting his nonsense.
When we get to a thousand, we'll have a party.

[bigdog]

On Tuesday, July 22, 2014 2:33:08 PM UTC-4, Sandy McCroskey wrote:
>
> > I pointed that out, and wondered why Oswald didn't buy ammo WITH
> > the rifle, since the ad for the rifle offered a good price for 108
> > cartridges and a free clip, as if the rifle didn't come with a clip.
>
> We don't *know* that he didn't.
> It's as simple as that.
>

It would be good at this time to state what the applicable laws are were.
The federal government does not maintain a registry of firearms sales. In
fact the law prohibits that. All commercial gun dealers are required to
have a Federal Firearms License (FFL). They are required to maintain a
permanent record of all firearms sales made. When a firearm is recovered
that is suspected of being used in a crime, it can be traced from the
manufacturer, to the distributor, to the retailer (FFL) to find out who
the original purchaser was. That's how the FBI was able to quickly trace
the Carcano from the importer, to Klein's to A. Hidell. There is no such
requirement for anyone to keep a record of ammunition purchases or any
other accessories such as scopes. Only a record of the gun must be kept.
Oswald might very well have purchased his ammo from Klein's and there
would be no requirement for them to keep a record of such sale. However,
the amount of the money order covered the cost of the rifle and the scope
so if he bought his ammo from Klein's it would have and could have been in
a seperate purchase.

Tracing the point of sale would have been a largely futile effort since no
records of such sales are kept and I doubt they would have spent much time
on what probably would have been a dead end. I doubt we will ever know
where Oswald bought his ammo and it isn't terribly important that we do. I
would bet there are few if any murder cases in which the point of sale for
the ammo was introduced into evidence because rarely would such evidence
be available. It might have been nice if some ammo dealer said he
remembered selling 6.5mm ammo to a guy who looked like Oswald, but we
should have no expectation that would happen.

[Anthony Marsh]

More underhanded arguments. I don't defend anything that Chris has ever
said. I add my own insights.

[Anthony Marsh]

Because it was rather rare and not many people knew to ask for it.

[mainframetech]

As noted before, when ridicule comes out, there's nothing intelligent to
say...:)

Chris

[Anthony Marsh]

Source for what? You know so little about this case you don't know that
the Western Winchester Carcano ammo was produced in 1954 for a one-time
contract? It was made for the USMC which didn't have any rifles which
could fired it which lead the FBI to think it was a cover for the CIA.

>
>> If only the CIA had it, that would prove a conspiracy by the CIA.
>
> Big IF.

They might not know that at the time. Follow all leads.

[mainframetech]

Naah. You're not thinking. You've been given all the evidence you need
to figure out that Oswald was set up, and that the MC rifle had little to
do with the murder. Why not work with what you were given, and not with
the stuff that was shoved down your throat from the WC?

Chris

[mainframetech]

So you're calling the experienced sniper a liar? Do you have the
experience to do that with clear knowledge of the subject? :)


Oh, I don't believe that Oswald was innocent, just that he was innocent
of shooting JFK or anyone with that lousy rifle that couldn't be aimed.

I've listed the bullet strikes in Dealey Plaza that I know about...have
you any proof they didn't hit the Plaza?

Chris

[mainframetech]

On Monday, July 21, 2014 7:49:03 PM UTC-4, bigdog wrote:
> >
>
> > > We can account for five 6.5mm rounds. The one Oswald fired at Walker, the
>
> > > three he fired at JFK, and the one found in the chamber. I've never
>
> > > purchased Carcano ammo but I have for other rifles and generally they are
>
> > > sold in boxes of 20 or 25. We don't know where Oswald bought his ammo or
>
> >
>
> > Exactly. Thanks for admitting that you don't know the evidence in this
>
> > case. The WCC ammo was sold by boxes of 20. No one could prove where
>
> > Oswald bought it.
>
> >

Don't be ridiculous. You're not thinking again. No one can prove that
Oswald bought ammunition AT ALL. He didn't take the great deal that
Klein's offered with the rifle for 108 cartridges and a FREE clip! And
Oswald took neither. Why not? Because he had no intention of shooting
the rifle at anything, so why spend the money?

Remember that they tried to find a dealer that sold to Oswald, and the
rifle was a special case, and not standard. But after the murder, it
would have stood out to anyone that sold the ammo, that it was Oswald
buying from them.

>
>
>
> Right. As if it is terribly important to know that. I never ceased to be
>
> amazed that you seem to know every bit of minutia of this case and yet
>
> with all that knowledge of the facts, you can't figure out something so
>
> simple as Oswald was the sole shooter. I guess maybe we can blame it on
>
> information overload. You're like the golfer who reads every instruction
>
> book he can get his hands on and knows all of the important fundamentals
>
> of the golf swing, but is unable to make a decent golf swing.

Keep trying...:) Ridicule means that you've run out of intelligent
things to offer us. Your frustration is expected. As your little efforts
keep being overturned by proofs, logic, and evidence, you are getting
nowhere...:)

Chris

[mainframetech]

On Monday, July 21, 2014 7:48:20 PM UTC-4, bigdog wrote:
> On Saturday, July 19, 2014 7:54:48 PM UTC-4, Anthony Marsh wrote:
>
> >
>
> > We don't know when the scope was damaged. It could have been after the
>
> > Walker shooting or after the JFK shooting.
>
> >
>

You're not thinking again. If it happened during the Walker shooting,
then the scope wouldn't be able to aim the rifle during the JFK shooting.
And trying to use the iron sights with the scope in place would be
miserable, since it pokes the shooter in the head while trying to aim.
And of course, as you now know, the bolt was very sticky and couldn't be
used for rapid firing. Here's what the gunsmith for Klein's said. He's
the guy that put the scope on the rifle. Klein's was his first job with
guns:

""It was a piece of junk," Sharp said. Knowing that the warehouse on West
Madison in Chicago sold much higher quality guns, Sharp was shocked at
Oswald's choice and at his success. "If you want good optics, you don't
buy them for three dollars [an estimate]."

Sharp had a very low opinion of these rifles. The effort to mount the
scope on one of them was such that 3 screws had to be taped, but he only
made 2 screw tapped holes, meaning the scope wasn't seated properly to
start with. With a low opinion of the rifle, he wouldn't go for
perfection in mounting a scope either. The shims needed to make the scope
act properly was because the mounting had flaws. Certainly the FBI and
the DPD would take good care of a weapon they thought was a killer weapon.
If a scope is damage (bent) from mishandling, it is doubtful that shimming
will make right.



>
>
> Tony, I wish you would quit saying things I agree with. I find it very
>
> unsettling.
>
>
>
> >
>
> > > The army had to send the MC rifle to their gunsmith for repairs before
>
> > > they could shoot it. The scope had to be shimmed to be in proper position
>
> > > to work. The testers also had to work the bolt for a few minutes to
>
> > > loosen it up, and it still caused trouble by sticking when they tried to
>
> > > shoot the rifle rapid-fire.
>
> >
>
> > > It's a joke the efforts that are being made to make that rifle the
>
> > > murder weapon. No bullet from that rifle ever hit anyone or hurt anyone.
>
> >
>
>
>
> > So you think it was only used to damage the limo? To plant evidence by
>
> > hitting the limo?
>
> >
>
>
>
> Apparently so. Chris believes that for some reason, the conspirators duped
>
> Oswald into bringing a rifle into the TSBD that wasn't capable of hitting
>
> a target. I wonder who he things the limo shooter was?



You're not thinking again. I haven't said anything like that, so don't
speak for me. The conspirators would not know the condition of the rifle
and that it couldn't aim properly. And Oswald didn't know either, since
he didn't buy it to shoot it. But it didn't matter to the conspirators.
Their many shooters wouldn't use a piece of junk like that old war surplus
rifle anyway. The real shooter from the TSBD only had to fire one or more
shots into Dealey Plaza to make sure that Oswald would be set up properly.
It didn't matter if he hit anything or not, since the real shooters would
be elsewhere and would hit the target.

[bigdog]

On Tuesday, July 22, 2014 9:07:58 PM UTC-4, mainframetech wrote:
>
> As noted before, when ridicule comes out, there's nothing intelligent to
> say...:)
>

You have the cart before the horse. The ridicule comes after nothing
intelligent has been said.

[bigdog]

On Tuesday, July 22, 2014 9:08:57 PM UTC-4, mainframetech wrote:
>
> Naah. You're not thinking. You've been given all the evidence you need
>
> to figure out that Oswald was set up, and that the MC rifle had little to
>
> do with the murder. Why not work with what you were given, and not with
>
> the stuff that was shoved down your throat from the WC?
>

Does your baloney have a first name?

[cmikes]

That's not the way it works, Chris. It's not mine or anyone else's
responsibility to prove you wrong, although I often do just because it's a
fun hobby. If you believe that there were 50 or 60 bullets fired at JFK,
it's your responsibility to offer some evidence of that. I understand
that will be difficult for you since you don't believe in the scientific
method or physical evidence, but it will be amusing to watch you try.

[Sandy McCroskey]

"proofs, logic, and evidence"

Those words, in your mouth, mean nothing.

[Sandy McCroskey]

Nyah, I've heard that before.
You're making too much of it.

[bigdog]

On Tuesday, July 22, 2014 9:28:31 PM UTC-4, mainframetech wrote:
>

> So you're calling the experienced sniper a liar?

If you are talking about Roberts, absolutely. Being able to blow somebody
away from hundreds of yards away and being an honest person are two
different things. If you are talking about Hathcock, the only source we
have that Hathcock said it was impossible is Roberts, and we know he is a
liar.

> Do you have the
> experience to do that with clear knowledge of the subject?

I know snipers have been blowing people away for a long time at ranges far
greater than 88 yards so anyone saying it is impossible is a fool or a
liar. Anyone believing it was impossible is just a fool.

> Oh, I don't believe that Oswald was innocent, just that he was innocent
> of shooting JFK or anyone with that lousy rifle that couldn't be aimed.
>

Conspiracy hobbyists believe lots of silly things.

>
> I've listed the bullet strikes in Dealey Plaza that I know about...have
> you any proof they didn't hit the Plaza?
>

Typical conspiracy hobbyist approach. Postulate something silly and then
claim it must be true if nobody can disprove it.

[bigdog]

On Tuesday, July 22, 2014 9:29:22 PM UTC-4, mainframetech wrote:
> On Monday, July 21, 2014 7:49:03 PM UTC-4, bigdog wrote:
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > We can account for five 6.5mm rounds. The one Oswald fired at Walker, the
>
> >
>
> > > > three he fired at JFK, and the one found in the chamber. I've never
>
> >
>
> > > > purchased Carcano ammo but I have for other rifles and generally they are
>
> >
>
> > > > sold in boxes of 20 or 25. We don't know where Oswald bought his ammo or
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Exactly. Thanks for admitting that you don't know the evidence in this
>
> >
>
> > > case. The WCC ammo was sold by boxes of 20. No one could prove where
>
> >
>
> > > Oswald bought it.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
>
>
>
>
> Don't be ridiculous. You're not thinking again. No one can prove that
> Oswald bought ammunition AT ALL.

I suppose he could have stolen it. Whether he bought, stole, or begged for it, he obtained it.

> He didn't take the great deal that
> Klein's offered with the rifle for 108 cartridges and a FREE clip!

Why would Oswald need 108 rounds? One box would have been plenty.

> And
> Oswald took neither. Why not? Because he had no intention of shooting
> the rifle at anything, so why spend the money?
>

So somebody who doesn't buy their ammo from the same retailer that sold them a gun has no intention of shooting it. No sillier a claim than most of your shit.

>
> Remember that they tried to find a dealer that sold to Oswald, and the
> rifle was a special case, and not standard.

I suppose you think Klein's was the only place one could buy ammo for the Carcano.

> But after the murder, it
> would have stood out to anyone that sold the ammo, that it was Oswald
> buying from them.
>

Oswald made his first ammo purchase prior to the Walker shooting. Why would you think that 8 months later someone would remember having sold a box of ammo to Oswald?

>
>
> > Right. As if it is terribly important to know that. I never ceased to be
> > amazed that you seem to know every bit of minutia of this case and yet
> > with all that knowledge of the facts, you can't figure out something so
> > simple as Oswald was the sole shooter. I guess maybe we can blame it on
> > information overload. You're like the golfer who reads every instruction
> > book he can get his hands on and knows all of the important fundamentals
> > of the golf swing, but is unable to make a decent golf swing.
>
>
> Keep trying...:) Ridicule means that you've run out of intelligent
> things to offer us.

The things I ridicule aren't intelligent.

> Your frustration is expected. As your little efforts
> keep being overturned by proofs, logic, and evidence, you are getting
> nowhere...:)
>

As I was saying, I ridicule things that are not intelligent.

[Sandy McCroskey]

OK, so get back to me on whether you think undetectable post-mortem body
alteration is possible, as Chris insists it is. Then tell me what
forensic pathologist agrees with you. This is what you're arguing with
me about in another thread.

[mainframetech]

I see your trying to hoax folks again, but I'll correct the problem.
First, all the documents are online for Oswald's purchase of the MC rifle
(the revolver too). The rifle had NOTHING else purchased with it, like
ammunition. The mail order for $21.45 can be seen, and that covers the
rifle, scope and tax, no extras:
http://www.milsurps.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=42647&d=1366926484

Why would Oswald make a different order, when he would have to go and
get another mail order and go through the whole process all over again?
He wouldn't. The ammunition was advertised right there under the
advertisement for the rifle, and it was a good deal at .07 cents a
cartridge, and we know Oswald was cheap, having bought the rifle for
$21.45. Having fired a rifle in the past, he would know that he needed
ammunition if he was going to kill someone. They searched all over and
couldn't find who had sold ammunition to Oswald, and after the murder, a
seller would surely recognize him and report it. It was big news in
Dallas, and the world.

Another thing is that Klein's wasn't a small operation, and if they got
in an order, they would record that no matter what had been bought.
Shoes, hat, bullets. All would be on a document, same as rifles. They
could do inventory stocking from the orders and use them for other things.
Proof that they sent out the order for the IRS, for instance:
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc151/David_Von_Pein/MISCELLANEOUS%20JFK
-RELATED%20PHOTOS/WaldmanExhibitNo7.jpg?t=1278630998

Saying that no records are kept on ammunition sales is facetious.
Actually, sales don't HAVE to be recorded, but department stores and other
larger businesses record all their sales regardless of what the product
is. It's true that guns are followed through documents for buying and
selling, right down to the serial number on each rifle. However, there
was a problem in trying to track back the trail of proof for the MC rifle
that Oswald had, and a careful researcher tried to track it back:

http://www.giljesus.com/jfk/rifle.htm

Since the authorities couldn't find anyone that sold ammunition to
Oswald, we must consider the possibility that Oswald didn't buy any, and
didn't intend to shoot anyone with the MC rifle. He took pictures with it
to impress someone, then rolled it in a blanket and put it away.

Chris

[mainframetech]

On Tuesday, July 22, 2014 8:06:25 PM UTC-4, OHLeeRedux wrote:
> mainframetech needs to make a few dozen more posts spouting his nonsense.
>
> When we get to a thousand, we'll have a party.

Aww...that's mean! Considering that spouting is something you do daily
and under an assumed name on top of it...:)

Insults and ridicule are used when folks have run out of intelligent
arguments to make.

Chris

[stevemg...@yahoo.com]

There were 62 bullets fired.

All of the evidence was destroyed or altered or removed. And the fact (!)
that it was all destroyed is evidence that it existed.

It's easy being a conspiracist: you can just take all of the evidence of
Oswald's guilt and say it's both evidence of his innocence and proof of
the conspiracy. Since the evidence was all planted.

Isn't that how every discussion ends? Every piece of evidence of Oswald's
culpability that is brought up is viewed by the Oswald defenders as
evidence of the conspiracy against him.

We're all Phil the Weatherman and it's "Assassination Day".

[Anthony Marsh]

Is there any WC defender anywhere who can debate honestly without all
the underhanded tricks. No one said 50 to 60 bullets.

[Anthony Marsh]

Do you have a real name?

[Anthony Marsh]

On 7/22/2014 9:31 PM, mainframetech wrote:
> On Monday, July 21, 2014 7:48:20 PM UTC-4, bigdog wrote:
>> On Saturday, July 19, 2014 7:54:48 PM UTC-4, Anthony Marsh wrote:
>>
>>>
>>
>>> We don't know when the scope was damaged. It could have been after the
>>
>>> Walker shooting or after the JFK shooting.
>>
>>>
>>
>
> You're not thinking again. If it happened during the Walker shooting,
> then the scope wouldn't be able to aim the rifle during the JFK shooting.

You are ASSuMING what you need to prove.
Frazier was able to shoot Oswald's Carcano even though the scope was
damaged.
The scope being damage does not prevent the rifle from working. It just
contributes to inaccuracy.

> And trying to use the iron sights with the scope in place would be
> miserable, since it pokes the shooter in the head while trying to aim.

Again, that is not true. Watch the CBS shooting tests. No one is poked
in the head.

> And of course, as you now know, the bolt was very sticky and couldn't be
> used for rapid firing. Here's what the gunsmith for Klein's said. He's

Not really rapid fire unless you accept the acoustical evidence.

> the guy that put the scope on the rifle. Klein's was his first job with
> guns:
>
> ""It was a piece of junk," Sharp said. Knowing that the warehouse on West
> Madison in Chicago sold much higher quality guns, Sharp was shocked at
> Oswald's choice and at his success. "If you want good optics, you don't
> buy them for three dollars [an estimate]."
>
> Sharp had a very low opinion of these rifles. The effort to mount the
> scope on one of them was such that 3 screws had to be taped, but he only
> made 2 screw tapped holes, meaning the scope wasn't seated properly to
> start with. With a low opinion of the rifle, he wouldn't go for
> perfection in mounting a scope either. The shims needed to make the scope
> act properly was because the mounting had flaws. Certainly the FBI and
> the DPD would take good care of a weapon they thought was a killer weapon.
> If a scope is damage (bent) from mishandling, it is doubtful that shimming
> will make right.
>

The crosshairs were also defective.

>
>
>>
>>
>> Tony, I wish you would quit saying things I agree with. I find it very
>>
>> unsettling.
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>> The army had to send the MC rifle to their gunsmith for repairs before
>>
>>>> they could shoot it. The scope had to be shimmed to be in proper position
>>
>>>> to work. The testers also had to work the bolt for a few minutes to
>>
>>>> loosen it up, and it still caused trouble by sticking when they tried to
>>
>>>> shoot the rifle rapid-fire.
>>
>>>
>>
>>>> It's a joke the efforts that are being made to make that rifle the
>>
>>>> murder weapon. No bullet from that rifle ever hit anyone or hurt anyone.
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> So you think it was only used to damage the limo? To plant evidence by
>>
>>> hitting the limo?
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Apparently so. Chris believes that for some reason, the conspirators duped
>>
>> Oswald into bringing a rifle into the TSBD that wasn't capable of hitting
>>
>> a target. I wonder who he things the limo shooter was?
>
>
>
> You're not thinking again. I haven't said anything like that, so don't

Someone else said that. Learn how Usenet quoting works.

> speak for me. The conspirators would not know the condition of the rifle
> and that it couldn't aim properly. And Oswald didn't know either, since
> he didn't buy it to shoot it. But it didn't matter to the conspirators.
> Their many shooters wouldn't use a piece of junk like that old war surplus
> rifle anyway. The real shooter from the TSBD only had to fire one or more
> shots into Dealey Plaza to make sure that Oswald would be set up properly.

Why bother to shoot at anything? Just shoot into the air if all you want
to do is plant CE 399. Or shoot at little Ronnie Fuller.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 7/22/2014 9:29 PM, mainframetech wrote:
> On Monday, July 21, 2014 7:49:03 PM UTC-4, bigdog wrote:
>>>
>>
>>>> We can account for five 6.5mm rounds. The one Oswald fired at Walker, the
>>
>>>> three he fired at JFK, and the one found in the chamber. I've never
>>
>>>> purchased Carcano ammo but I have for other rifles and generally they are
>>
>>>> sold in boxes of 20 or 25. We don't know where Oswald bought his ammo or
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Exactly. Thanks for admitting that you don't know the evidence in this
>>
>>> case. The WCC ammo was sold by boxes of 20. No one could prove where
>>
>>> Oswald bought it.
>>
>>>
>
>
> Don't be ridiculous. You're not thinking again. No one can prove that
> Oswald bought ammunition AT ALL. He didn't take the great deal that

OK, so maybe he stole it. Or the CIA gave it to him.

> Klein's offered with the rifle for 108 cartridges and a FREE clip! And

More than he wanted to spend and he didn't need that many bullets just
to kill Walker.

> Oswald took neither. Why not? Because he had no intention of shooting
> the rifle at anything, so why spend the money?
>
> Remember that they tried to find a dealer that sold to Oswald, and the
> rifle was a special case, and not standard. But after the murder, it
> would have stood out to anyone that sold the ammo, that it was Oswald
> buying from them.
>

There were various brands that Oswald could have bought. His model was
not that different from the other 6.5 mm Carcanos.
Masen was questioned and denied selling it to Oswald. He said it was
rare enough that he would remember if he sold any.

http://the-puzzle-palace.com/ammo%20Masen%20CE2694.jpg

[Sandy McCroskey]

On 7/23/14, 4:23 PM, mainframetech wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 22, 2014 8:06:25 PM UTC-4, OHLeeRedux wrote:
>> mainframetech needs to make a few dozen more posts spouting his nonsense.
>>
>> When we get to a thousand, we'll have a party.
>
>
> Aww...that's mean! Considering that spouting is something you do daily
> and under an assumed name on top of it...:)
>

Mr. and Mrs. Mainframetech are very proud of their son Chris.

[BT George]

Exactly right! And I might add the ridicule usually comes out of me when
someone's ideas are so far-fetched and/or unsupported that ridicule is the
best tool to highlight the *absurdity* of their operating notions.

BT George

[Anthony Marsh]

Which experienced sniper? All you have is hearsay. No direct quote.
You only peddle stories from kooks.

>
> Oh, I don't believe that Oswald was innocent, just that he was innocent
> of shooting JFK or anyone with that lousy rifle that couldn't be aimed.
>
> I've listed the bullet strikes in Dealey Plaza that I know about...have
> you any proof they didn't hit the Plaza?
>

How about the damage done to the limo? Carcano bullet fragments from
Oswald's rifle were found in the limo. Which shot(s) caused those?

> Chris
>

[Anthony Marsh]

On 7/22/2014 9:08 PM, mainframetech wrote:
> On Monday, July 21, 2014 9:07:12 PM UTC-4, bigdog wrote:
>> On Monday, July 21, 2014 3:17:05 PM UTC-4, mainframetech wrote:
>>
>>>
>>
>>> My suggestion is that Oswald continued his habit of not bothering to
>>
>>> take care of his weapon, and oil it and do the other maintenance task
>>
>>> necessary, so that the original cosmoline or other storage medium was
>>
>>> still slowing down the moving parts from the rifle's past history as war
>>
>>> surplus. Oswald was known in the marines for not taking care of his
>>
>>> weapon, and for getting many 'Maggie's Drawers', which is a red flag waved
>>
>>> in front of a target that was missed altogether, which Oswald was know
>>
>>> for.
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Yup. Oswald would sometimes completely miss his target. Like he did with
>>
>> the shot he fired at Walker and the first shot he fired at JFK. However,
>>
>> he did hit his target enough times to get the job done. Like he did with
>>
>> the second and third shots he fired at JFK.
>
>
>
> Naah. You're not thinking. You've been given all the evidence you need

No matter what anyone else says you have that stock attack ready on a
hot key.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 7/22/2014 9:05 PM, bigdog wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 22, 2014 2:33:08 PM UTC-4, Sandy McCroskey wrote:
>>
>>> I pointed that out, and wondered why Oswald didn't buy ammo WITH
>>> the rifle, since the ad for the rifle offered a good price for 108
>>> cartridges and a free clip, as if the rifle didn't come with a clip.
>>
>> We don't *know* that he didn't.
>> It's as simple as that.
>>
>
> It would be good at this time to state what the applicable laws are were.
> The federal government does not maintain a registry of firearms sales. In
> fact the law prohibits that. All commercial gun dealers are required to
> have a Federal Firearms License (FFL). They are required to maintain a
> permanent record of all firearms sales made. When a firearm is recovered
> that is suspected of being used in a crime, it can be traced from the
> manufacturer, to the distributor, to the retailer (FFL) to find out who
> the original purchaser was. That's how the FBI was able to quickly trace
> the Carcano from the importer, to Klein's to A. Hidell. There is no such
> requirement for anyone to keep a record of ammunition purchases or any
> other accessories such as scopes. Only a record of the gun must be kept.

But if Oswald had bought the SMI ammo from Klein's then they could trace
the records back to his purchase. The Carcano rifle was unusual enough
that it was pretty easy to track down the mail order purchase. Not that
many stores in Texas sold that model.

> Oswald might very well have purchased his ammo from Klein's and there
> would be no requirement for them to keep a record of such sale. However,

As a matter of course they keep the order forms which would list the
ammo as an additional item.

> the amount of the money order covered the cost of the rifle and the scope
> so if he bought his ammo from Klein's it would have and could have been in
> a seperate purchase.
>

Klein's did not sell the WCC ammo, only the SMI ammo.

> Tracing the point of sale would have been a largely futile effort since no
> records of such sales are kept and I doubt they would have spent much time
> on what probably would have been a dead end. I doubt we will ever know

They tried to track it down and Masen denied selling it to Oswald.

http://the-puzzle-palace.com/ammo%20Masen%20CE2694.jpg

> where Oswald bought his ammo and it isn't terribly important that we do. I
> would bet there are few if any murder cases in which the point of sale for
> the ammo was introduced into evidence because rarely would such evidence
> be available. It might have been nice if some ammo dealer said he

Anachronism. You are comparing regulations in 2014 to regulations in 1963.

> remembered selling 6.5mm ammo to a guy who looked like Oswald, but we
> should have no expectation that would happen.
>

How about finding even one person who sold WCC ammo to anyone? Then that
anyone could have given it to Oswald.

[mainframetech]

So you actually have told yourself that you have won some debate with
me? Not a chance. I've answered all questions, and asked so that were
never responded to. How do you explain the 42 minutes time that Humes and
Boswell had to damage the body BEFORE the 'official' autopsy? You were
unable to answer that quite a while ago. Wanna try again? :)

I believe in the scientific method, and in physical evidence, but as we
both know, those can be messed with and change the results. For example,
when the CE399 bullet is no longer the same bullet that 4 men handled
early on, then there's been someone messing with the evidence. No
scientific method there.

Try and appreciate that I didn't ask you to oppose my presenting of
sworn testimony, and yes, you have NO responsibility to do that. You did
it completely on your own. But don't complain if you don't like the
answers you get when you decide to take it on...:)

Chris

[Anthony Marsh]

No matter what I say you are determined to not understand it. If I tell
you that the Sun could go SuperNova you'll claim that I said the Sun went
SuperNova. There have been a few other cases of forging or altering
wounds. And one of the easiest to do is to make a murder look like an
accident.

I told you that Coe and Peterson as well as Fisher found external beveling
on skull wound entrances. Don't ask me to defend anyone else's theory.

[Anthony Marsh]

Masen says that he would have remembered Oswald and would have remembered
selling the WCC ammo. If you only sold one box in the entire year you
might be more likely to remember it.

[Anthony Marsh]

Then you were just pretending that you had never heard of it before.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 7/22/2014 9:05 PM, bigdog wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 22, 2014 2:33:08 PM UTC-4, Sandy McCroskey wrote:
>>
>>> I pointed that out, and wondered why Oswald didn't buy ammo WITH
>>> the rifle, since the ad for the rifle offered a good price for 108
>>> cartridges and a free clip, as if the rifle didn't come with a clip.
>>
>> We don't *know* that he didn't.
>> It's as simple as that.
>>
>
> It would be good at this time to state what the applicable laws are were.
> The federal government does not maintain a registry of firearms sales. In
> fact the law prohibits that. All commercial gun dealers are required to
> have a Federal Firearms License (FFL). They are required to maintain a
> permanent record of all firearms sales made. When a firearm is recovered
> that is suspected of being used in a crime, it can be traced from the
> manufacturer, to the distributor, to the retailer (FFL) to find out who
> the original purchaser was. That's how the FBI was able to quickly trace
> the Carcano from the importer, to Klein's to A. Hidell. There is no such
> requirement for anyone to keep a record of ammunition purchases or any
> other accessories such as scopes. Only a record of the gun must be kept.

> Oswald might very well have purchased his ammo from Klein's and there
> would be no requirement for them to keep a record of such sale. However,

> the amount of the money order covered the cost of the rifle and the scope
> so if he bought his ammo from Klein's it would have and could have been in
> a seperate purchase.
>

> Tracing the point of sale would have been a largely futile effort since no

Many stores kept track of inventory.
Klein's kept track of what it's customers bought.

> records of such sales are kept and I doubt they would have spent much time

> on what probably would have been a dead end. I doubt we will ever know

> where Oswald bought his ammo and it isn't terribly important that we do. I
> would bet there are few if any murder cases in which the point of sale for
> the ammo was introduced into evidence because rarely would such evidence
> be available. It might have been nice if some ammo dealer said he

> remembered selling 6.5mm ammo to a guy who looked like Oswald, but we
> should have no expectation that would happen.
>

Nope. You can never cite for any of your silly ideas.

[bigdog]

On Wednesday, July 23, 2014 4:23:28 PM UTC-4, mainframetech wrote:
>
> I see your trying to hoax folks again, but I'll correct the problem.
> First, all the documents are online for Oswald's purchase of the MC rifle
> (the revolver too). The rifle had NOTHING else purchased with it, like
> ammunition. The mail order for $21.45 can be seen, and that covers the
> rifle, scope and tax, no extras:
>
> http://www.milsurps.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=42647&d=1366926484
>

So all that means is he didn't buy the ammo when he ordered the rifle.
There could be any number of reasons he didn't and no way to prove any of
them. He might have felt he didn't need the 108 rounds Klein's was
offering so why buy more than you need. He might have known a place he
could purchase the ammo cheaper.

Conspiracy hobbyists make this same mistake over and over. They assume
Oswald would think like they would and act like they would if they had
been in Oswald's shoes. The reality is that Oswald was making his own
judgements for his own reasons and those may very well differ from what
one of us would do under those circumstances.

It is pure folly to try to get into the mind of Oswald because we have no
idea how his mind worked and why he did the things he did. All we can do
is let the evidence tell us WHAT he did. The WHY is for those who want to
play guessing games.

>
> Why would Oswald make a different order, when he would have to go and
> get another mail order and go through the whole process all over again?

Why ask why?


> He wouldn't.

You don't know that. You are guessing.

> The ammunition was advertised right there under the
> advertisement for the rifle, and it was a good deal at .07 cents a
> cartridge, and we know Oswald was cheap, having bought the rifle for
> $21.45.

And you can't think of any reason Oswald would have decided to buy his
ammo from someplace other than Klein's. In typical conspiracy hobbyist
fashion you assume and explaination that fits with your cockamamie theory,
ignoring all other possibilities.

> Having fired a rifle in the past, he would know that he needed
> ammunition if he was going to kill someone.

Really? One has to fire a rifle to know that?

> They searched all over and
> couldn't find who had sold ammunition to Oswald, and after the murder, a
> seller would surely recognize him and report it. It was big news in
> Dallas, and the world.
>

Who is "they". Cite your source that they couldn't find another dealer
that sold that caliber of ammo.

>
> Another thing is that Klein's wasn't a small operation, and if they got
> in an order, they would record that no matter what had been bought.

More guessing.

>
> Shoes, hat, bullets. All would be on a document, same as rifles. They
> could do inventory stocking from the orders and use them for other things.
>
> Proof that they sent out the order for the IRS, for instance:
>
> http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc151/David_Von_Pein/MISCELLANEOUS%20JFK
>
> -RELATED%20PHOTOS/WaldmanExhibitNo7.jpg?t=1278630998
>

> Saying that no records are kept on ammunition sales is facetious.

Records are not kept of who buys ammo. I can walk into any gun shop in my
area, buy a box of ammo, pay cash for it and they will have no idea who
they sold that box of ammo to. It isn't required or important. They would
only need to know how much of each type of ammo they sold so they could
replenish their stock.

>
> Actually, sales don't HAVE to be recorded, but department stores and other
> larger businesses record all their sales regardless of what the product
> is.

Not who they sell to. That is the reason there would be no record of
Oswald buying ammo. We should have no expectation that there would be. It
is just another red herring floated by people desperate to believe an
obviously guilty man is innocent.

> It's true that guns are followed through documents for buying and
> selling, right down to the serial number on each rifle. However, there
> was a problem in trying to track back the trail of proof for the MC rifle
> that Oswald had, and a careful researcher tried to track it back:
>

Obviously the FBI had no problem tracking it. They quickly traced it to
Klein's who in turn was able to document that they had sold it to A.
Hiddell at a PO box. Oswald's PO box. More desperation.

>
>
> http://www.giljesus.com/jfk/rifle.htm
>

You've sunk to quoting Gil Jesus??? Now that's funny. If you would believe
him, you would believe just about anything. But we already knew that.

>
> Since the authorities couldn't find anyone that sold ammunition to
> Oswald, we must consider the possibility that Oswald didn't buy any,

We must do nothing of the kind. The evidence is clear an overwhelming that
he shot his rifle at two different guys and two different times. To do
that, he had to obtain ammo somehow and sometime.

> and
> didn't intend to shoot anyone with the MC rifle. He took pictures with it
> to impress someone, then rolled it in a blanket and put it away.
>

Until he needed it again.

[bigdog]

On Wednesday, July 23, 2014 6:10:40 PM UTC-4, Anthony Marsh wrote:
> > where Oswald bought his ammo and it isn't terribly important that we do. I
> > would bet there are few if any murder cases in which the point of sale for
> > the ammo was introduced into evidence because rarely would such evidence
> > be available. It might have been nice if some ammo dealer said he
>
> Anachronism. You are comparing regulations in 2014 to regulations in 1963.
>

Records of ammo purchases are not required now and were not required then.
What has changed is you can no longer purchase mail order firearms. You
can purchase a rifle through a catalog or website, but it must be
delivered to an FFL, you must pick it up in person, and you must pass a
background check. The assassination of JFK was the driving force behind
the discontinuation of mail order gun sales.

>
> > remembered selling 6.5mm ammo to a guy who looked like Oswald, but we
> > should have no expectation that would happen.
>
> How about finding even one person who sold WCC ammo to anyone? Then that
> anyone could have given it to Oswald.

Are you really going to claim no one was selling WCC ammo? Of course you
aren't. You are just being disagreeable for the sake of being
disagreeable.

[Sandy McCroskey]

No, I honestly didn't remember then.
Happens.

[Sandy McCroskey]

On 7/23/14 9:36 PM, mainframetech wrote:
> I believe in the scientific method, and in physical evidence,

You don't know what those terms mean.

[claviger]

A telephone canvas was made of hundreds of shops in the Dallas area
trying to locate who sold Western ammunition. Only two places were
located:
John T. Masen-Masen's Gun Shop on Harry Hines Blvd. and
John Brinegar, The Gun Shop, also on Harry Hines Blvd.

On March 26, 1964 Masen told the FBI that he had bought about ten boxes
of 6.5 Western ammo from Brinegar in early 1963 and sold them to
individuals. He then bought another ten boxes from Brinegar. Since this
ammo was being used for deer hunting, Masen pulled the bullets and
reloaded with soft point (lead nose) ammo. Masen also told the FBI that he
had visited Mexico City during the summer of 63 and while there visited
the "Mendoza Brothers", who owned an arms manufacturing plant.
Brinegar told the FBI that he had purchased one case of 6.5 Western
from the CENTURY ARMS COMPANY in St Albans, Vermont. In 1962, after seeing
it advertised for $45 per 1000 rounds he verified the 20 box sale to Masen
and said that he had about six boxes left. He also had put soft nose ammo
in some of the Western ammo. Brinegar said that many shops in the Dallas
area sold 6.5 Western ammo. He had seen it advertised.
Masen told the FBI that target practice was common in the Trinity River
bottom near his shop, which was near Love Field. He also used the river
bottom to test fire weapons. Brinegar had his own firing range, but said
that because of the levee on both sides of the river, about 35 feet high,
it was ideal.
Both said they did not remember selling ammo to LHO.
On March 26, 1964, two boxes of this ammo were given to the FBI for lab
testing. One box from Brinegar (military load) and one box from Masen
(soft nose load).
Remember that Marina said that Lee test fired his rifle at "LOP" Field.
Perhaps it was in the Trinity River bottom near Brinegar's shop. It is
possible that LHO did buy his ammo there and Brinegar just didn't remember
him.

[claviger]

"On November 1, an Oswald purchased ammunition at Morgan's Gun Shop. On
November 4th, an Oswald visited Dial Ryders gun shop to have a scope
mounted on his rifle even though Mr. Davis had sighted in Oswald's rifle,
with scope, at the Sports Drome Rifle Range a month earlier."

http://harveyandlee.net/NID97.htm

[bigdog]

On Wednesday, July 23, 2014 9:36:06 PM UTC-4, mainframetech wrote:
>
> So you actually have told yourself that you have won some debate with
> me?

Some things are so obvious they don't even need to be stated.

> Not a chance. I've answered all questions,

And got them all wrong.

> and asked so that were
> never responded to. How do you explain the 42 minutes time that Humes and
> Boswell had to damage the body BEFORE the 'official' autopsy?

So because they had time to do something illegal, you assume they did.
Brilliant, Sherlock. Just brilliant.

> You were
> unable to answer that quite a while ago. Wanna try again? :)
>

Silly questions refute themselves.

>
> I believe in the scientific method,

<Stifling a belly laugh>

> and in physical evidence,

Which you completely dismiss.

> but as we
> both know, those can be messed with and change the results.

As I was saying...

> For example,
> when the CE399 bullet is no longer the same bullet that 4 men handled
> early on, then there's been someone messing with the evidence. No
> scientific method there.

No, you certainly haven't used any here.

[bigdog]

On Wednesday, July 23, 2014 9:39:04 PM UTC-4, Anthony Marsh wrote:
> On 7/23/2014 2:52 PM, bigdog wrote:
>
>
> > Oswald made his first ammo purchase prior to the Walker shooting. Why would you think that 8 months later someone would remember having sold a box of ammo to Oswald?
>
> Masen says that he would have remembered Oswald and would have remembered
> selling the WCC ammo. If you only sold one box in the entire year you
> might be more likely to remember it.
>

I'd love to see that quote. It is absurd on the face of it. I mentioned
earlier that I have worked in retail. One of the jobs I had was working
the camera counter back in the days when people used film. We had all
kinds of film. 35mm print film and cartridges were the most popular. Once
in a while somebody would ask for something that wasn't common. I'd fill
the order, take their money or fill out the credit card form and five
minutes later I wouldn't even remember their face.

Of course we don't know whether Oswald bought the ammo there or not. We
don't know where he bought the ammo. We do know he obtained the ammo
somewhere.

[mainframetech]

In another post, you have been shown the letters and documents proving
that only 2 places in the Dallas-Ft. Worth area sold that ammunition that
stopped being made in the USA in 1944. All sales were of old war surplus
ammo. The FBI could find no one that sold that ammo to Oswald.

http://www.giljesus.com/jfk/rifle_ammo.htm

Chris

[mainframetech]

LOL! I just knew it was going to be my fault you acted that way...:)

Chris

[mainframetech]

On Wednesday, July 23, 2014 10:17:50 PM UTC-4, bigdog wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 23, 2014 4:23:28 PM UTC-4, mainframetech wrote:
>
> >
>
> > I see your trying to hoax folks again, but I'll correct the problem.
>
> > First, all the documents are online for Oswald's purchase of the MC rifle
>
> > (the revolver too). The rifle had NOTHING else purchased with it, like
>
> > ammunition. The mail order for $21.45 can be seen, and that covers the
>
> > rifle, scope and tax, no extras:
>
> >
>
> > http://www.milsurps.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=42647&d=1366926484
>
> >
>
>
>
> So all that means is he didn't buy the ammo when he ordered the rifle.
>
> There could be any number of reasons he didn't and no way to prove any of
>
> them. He might have felt he didn't need the 108 rounds Klein's was
>
> offering so why buy more than you need. He might have known a place he
>
> could purchase the ammo cheaper.
>

Suddenly the case that is all proven has parts that are unproven and
can never be proven? Are you slipping? Think it through. There is not a
single reason worth a cent that Oswald would miss the chance to buy
ammunition for the rifle at the low price, and get a free clip too. Did
the rifle come with a clip? It doesn't look like it. It would be
impossible for Oswald to miss the mention of the ammunition and clip with
the rifle ad:

http://www.milsurps.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=42647&d=1366926484

Why would Oswald want to go to the trouble of having to find a store
that sold the right kind of ammunition, which was a special type? If he
wanted to kill someone with the rifle, he would have gotten the offered
ammunition. As well, after the murder, he was on TV and in the papers and
anyone that sold this special ammunition to him would report it.

>
>
> Conspiracy hobbyists make this same mistake over and over. They assume
>
> Oswald would think like they would and act like they would if they had
>
> been in Oswald's shoes. The reality is that Oswald was making his own
>
> judgements for his own reasons and those may very well differ from what
>
> one of us would do under those circumstances.
>

Of course Oswald may have had different thoughts than we would guess.
But many people can make general decisions about someone's thoughts based
on their previous actions and words. Oswald wasn't a dummy, and he was a
loner, these things we can agree on. And that means he would tend to do
and think certain things that fit his style.

>
>
> It is pure folly to try to get into the mind of Oswald because we have no
>
> idea how his mind worked and why he did the things he did. All we can do
>
> is let the evidence tell us WHAT he did. The WHY is for those who want to
>
> play guessing games.
>

The evidence is that he didn't buy any ammunition. That says he had no
intention of killing anyone with the rifle, but since he took photos with
the rifle, he wanted to show the photos to someone. Obvious, simple.
Think it through. Who did he know to show the photos to? de
Mohrenschildt? Cubans? His wife had already seen the rifle.

>
>
> >
>
> > Why would Oswald make a different order, when he would have to go and
>
> > get another mail order and go through the whole process all over again?
>
>
>
> Why ask why?
>

I don't need to know the answer, it's obvious to me that he didn't
bother with buying ammo, because he didn't plan on killing anyone. He may
not have even had a clip for the rifle. I ask it for you to learn, by
considering the question and trying to think up an answer. As your words
imply, you didn't know.

>
>
>
>
> > He wouldn't.
>
>
>
> You don't know that. You are guessing.
>

Of course I know that. He wasn't a dummy. If he planned on killing
someone, he knew he needed ammo, and he couldn't miss the ad offering it
to him. Yet he passed it up.

>
>
> > The ammunition was advertised right there under the
>
> > advertisement for the rifle, and it was a good deal at .07 cents a
>
> > cartridge, and we know Oswald was cheap, having bought the rifle for
>
> > $21.45.
>
>
>
> And you can't think of any reason Oswald would have decided to buy his
>
> ammo from someplace other than Klein's. In typical conspiracy hobbyist
>
> fashion you assume and explaination that fits with your cockamamie theory,
>
> ignoring all other possibilities.
>

Cockamamie fits the theories that came from the WC lawyers. Tell me
why you think the obvious reason for Oswald to not buy ammo for the rifle
was that he only wanted it to make an impression on someone, and not kill
anyone.

>
>
> > Having fired a rifle in the past, he would know that he needed
>
> > ammunition if he was going to kill someone.
>
>
>
> Really? One has to fire a rifle to know that?
>

Just stating the obvious for you. And the obvious is that he knew he
needed ammunition, and he knew that the ad offered it. One mail order
would cover the whole thing, and a free clip to boot!

>
>
> > They searched all over and
>
> > couldn't find who had sold ammunition to Oswald, and after the murder, a
>
> > seller would surely recognize him and report it. It was big news in
>
> > Dallas, and the world.
>
> >
>
>
>
> Who is "they". Cite your source that they couldn't find another dealer
>
> that sold that caliber of ammo.
>

Get off it! No one said there was no other dealer that had that ammo!
However, it wasn't everywhere, as per the reply letter I showed you:

http://www.giljesus.com/jfk/lane411.jpg
http://www.giljesus.com/jfk/ammo5.jpg

And here's the result of a check of the Dallas-Ft. Worth gun shops by
the FBI:

http://www.giljesus.com/jfk/ammo4.JPG

Note there were only 2 places to check and question about whether Oswald
had bought anything.

>
>
> >
>
> > Another thing is that Klein's wasn't a small operation, and if they got
>
> > in an order, they would record that no matter what had been bought.
>
>
>
> More guessing.
>

Nope. Won't do. Companies need the information for restocking. The
documents were very important too for tax purposes. Companies saved all
sales information. It often also had addresses for later advertising
through the mail. Customers that had already bought things, may be better
opportunities to buy more.



>
>
> >
>
> > Shoes, hats, bullets. All would be on a document, same as rifles. They

>
> > could do inventory stocking from the orders and use them for other things.
>
> >
>
> > Proof that they sent out the order for the IRS, for instance:
>
> >
>
> > http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc151/David_Von_Pein/MISCELLANEOUS%20JFK
>
> >
>
> > -RELATED%20PHOTOS/WaldmanExhibitNo7.jpg?t=1278630998
>
> >
>
>
>
> > Saying that no records are kept on ammunition sales is facetious.
>
>
>
> Records are not kept of who buys ammo. I can walk into any gun shop in my
>
> area, buy a box of ammo, pay cash for it and they will have no idea who
>
> they sold that box of ammo to. It isn't required or important. They would
>
> only need to know how much of each type of ammo they sold so they could
>
> replenish their stock.
>

That's a phony argument. They didn't need a name on a document.
There were 2 places the FBI found in the Dallas -Ft. Worth area that sold
the special ammunition for the MC rifle. They both denied selling to
Oswald, but if they had sold to him, he was on TV and in the papers, and
it would be easy to identify the only guy that bought that ammo recently.
It was not made in the USA anymore after 1944.

>
>
> >
>
> > Actually, sales don't HAVE to be recorded, but department stores and other
>
> > larger businesses record all their sales regardless of what the product
>
> > is.
>
>
>
> Not who they sell to. That is the reason there would be no record of
>
> Oswald buying ammo. We should have no expectation that there would be. It
>
> is just another red herring floated by people desperate to believe an
>
> obviously guilty man is innocent.
>

the desperation is coming from you based on the kind of excuses you keep
coming up with...:) Oswald would have bought the ammunition offered if he
had wanted to shoot anything with the rifle instead of just taking photos.
Se above, only 2 places in the area sold that ammo, and it wasn't made in
the USA anymore since 1944. Not hard to remember if someone bought
it...:)

>
>
> > It's true that guns are followed through documents for buying and
>
> > selling, right down to the serial number on each rifle. However, there
>
> > was a problem in trying to track back the trail of proof for the MC rifle
>
> > that Oswald had, and a careful researcher tried to track it back:
>
> >
>
>
>
> Obviously the FBI had no problem tracking it. They quickly traced it to
>
> Klein's who in turn was able to document that they had sold it to A.
>
> Hiddell at a PO box. Oswald's PO box. More desperation.
>

Nope. The FBI faked it. Here's the documentation and the story, proven
with the documents:

http://www.giljesus.com/jfk/rifle.htm




>
> You've sunk to quoting Gil Jesus??? Now that's funny. If you would believe
>
> him, you would believe just about anything. But we already knew that.
>

The reason Gil Jesus got bashed by you and some others was that he was
an excellent researcher and has proved many things that the LNs didn't
like to have to face. The evidence I'm showing you was compiled by Gil
Jesus and consists of many documents. Are you now going to attempt to
argue with what the documents say? Anything to cover up the crime of the
century...:)

>
>
> >
>
> > Since the authorities couldn't find anyone that sold ammunition to
>
> > Oswald, we must consider the possibility that Oswald didn't buy any,
>
>
>
> We must do nothing of the kind. The evidence is clear an overwhelming that
>
> he shot his rifle at two different guys and two different times. To do
>
> that, he had to obtain ammo somehow and sometime.
>

Give it up! There is NO evidence that Oswald shot at anyone, and you
have had it proved to you. You're getting desperate now. I'm not going
to repeat everything I've taught you about this case up to now. Go back
and find the info if you have failed to pay attention.

Try proving that Oswald bought any ammunition for the M rifle from the
only 2 places in the area that sold it!

>
>
> > and
>
> > didn't intend to shoot anyone with the MC rifle. He took pictures with it
>
> > to impress someone, then rolled it in a blanket and put it away.
>
> >
>
>
>
> Until he needed it again.

Probably true. He needed to bring it in to the TSBD to either show it,
sell it, or trade it. And you have NO proof of him doing anything with it
other than those possibilities.

Chris