Response to David Von Pein on what Oswald said

[Ralph Cinque]

http://oswaldinthedoorway.blogspot.com/2015/10/david-von-pein-said-nobody-who-was.html

[Mark OBLAZNEY]

On Thursday, October 15, 2015 at 8:47:09 PM UTC+2, Ralph Cinque wrote:
> http://oswaldinthedoorway.blogspot.com/2015/10/david-von-pein-said-nobody-who-was.html

Have you ever been in Plato's Cave, Ralph ? I'm sure he'd like you, in
the biblical sense, uh......

[David Von Pein]

The steps are OUTSIDE THE FRONT DOOR, Ralph! OUTSIDE! Not inside.

If you stepped out onto your front porch, which is OUTSIDE the front door,
would you say you were "INSIDE" the house?

[BOZ]

On Thursday, October 15, 2015 at 3:47:09 PM UTC-3, Ralph Cinque wrote:
> http://oswaldinthedoorway.blogspot.com/2015/10/david-von-pein-said-nobody-who-was.html

You remind me of Billy Bibbit from One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.

[mainframetech]

Is it an 'enclosed porch'?

Chris

[David Von Pein]

You think the steps in front of the Book Depository Building are
"enclosed", eh? Better look again. The steps are in the OPEN AIR and are
not "inside" the building. Only a desperate CTer could possibly think
these steps and the TSBD landing could be classified as being located
"inside" the building....

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-xMASHuENDuQ/T07-Ortw7TI/AAAAAAAAF4Q/Y63uJHUInzo/s1600/Texas-School-Book-Depository-Building.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-wEbsJXXiHR4/UocDPk_WlFI/AAAAAAAAwzY/SB3XuMQErJY/s1600/Will-Fritz-And-Elmer-Boyd-Exiting-TSBD-11-22-63.jpg

[Ralph Cinque]

That's not a good comparison, David. If I step outside my front porch, I
am completely outside in every sense of the word. If it's raining, I'm
going to feel it. If the wind is gusting, I'm going to feel it.

What if there was another glass partition at street level and everything
else was the same? Then, we wouldn't be having this discussion. What I'm
saying is that the absence of that other glass partition really isn't that
important. Your whole argument is more of a technical one than a real
one. Oswald was very much within the confines of the building. He was NOT
on the street.

[Jason Burke]

What post are you responding to, Ralph?

[Bud]

On Monday, October 19, 2015 at 3:00:54 PM UTC-4, Ralph Cinque wrote:
> That's not a good comparison, David. If I step outside my front porch, I
> am completely outside in every sense of the word. If it's raining, I'm
> going to feel it. If the wind is gusting, I'm going to feel it.

How about this, if Batman was in the Batcave would you say he was in Wayne Manor?

> What if there was another glass partition at street level and everything
> else was the same? Then, we wouldn't be having this discussion. What I'm
> saying is that the absence of that other glass partition really isn't that
> important. Your whole argument is more of a technical one than a real
> one. Oswald was very much within the confines of the building. He was NOT
> on the street.

Ok, heres the exchange...

Lee Harvey Oswald: I work in that building.

Reporter: Were you in the building at the time?

Lee Harvey Oswald: Naturally, if I work in that building, yes sir.

I looked at some of the other people on the steps (Frazier, Lovelady,
Shelly) and they seem to all use "out" or "outside" to describe their
orientation. Is your defense that Oswald was too stupid to know when he
was in a building and when he was outside of it?

[David Von Pein]

On Monday, October 19, 2015 at 3:00:54 PM UTC-4, Ralph Cinque wrote:

I never said anyone on the steps would be "on the street". (Where did that
silliness come from?)

But somebody who is standing on the TSBD's front steps is standing OUTSIDE
THE FRONT DOOR of the Depository Building. And that is OUTSIDE the
building---not INSIDE the building. And Oswald said this....

LEE HARVEY OSWALD -- "I work in that building."

REPORTER -- "Were you in the building at the time?"

LEE HARVEY OSWALD -- "Naturally, if I work in that building, yes, sir."

=======================

If Oswald had truly been on the front steps with many of his co-workers
watching the parade, does any reasonable person *really* think he would
have answered the question "WERE YOU IN THE BUILDING AT THE TIME?" the way
he did answer it on 11/22/63?

[Mitch Todd]

It always tickles me that Ralph, who would like everyone to believe in his
mastery of the technical subjects involved in the assassination, can't
figure out how to properly reply to a post...

:-D

[Ralph Cinque]

No rational person would have trouble grasping the meaning of: "I was out
with Bill Shelley in front."

Oswald named someone who was out there, which he could only do if he was
there himself.

Also, by naming someone who was out there, he was declaring his
expectation that this person would vouch for him. It's as though he said:

"Just ask Bill Shelley. He'll tell you that I was out there."

I realize that Shelley did NOT, in fact, confirm it, but still, it's clear
as a bell that Oswald expected that he would; he thought that he would.

And there's this thing that people do; it's called LYING. And I'm not
talking about Oswald but Shelley. I am saying, directly and decidedly,
that Shelley lied, that he knew damn-well that Oswald was out there. He
lied; he bold-faced lied.

Why are you giving more weight to a remark that Oswald made to a reporter
in the hall, and one that was framed and phrased by the reporter, than to
what Oswald told police?

[Anthony Marsh]

Yes, why not? You don't know what he said and what he meant. What does
"at the time" mean? Maybe the questioner would mean when the motorcade
arrived. The questioner would not be smart enough to specify if he means
when the shooting started or when Kennedy was shot in the head.
Maybe Oswald would say that he heard the shooting and opened the door
and went into the TSBD to seek cover. Would you agree that opening the
door and going into the doorway would satisfy you conditions for being
"in the building"? Right, I didn't think you'd give me an honest answer.
I'm not sure, but suspect that his view of the limo at Z-313 would be
blocked from that position. Did Lovelady see the President being struck
in the head?

Mr. Lovelady.
That's on the second floor; so, I started going to the domino room
where I generally went in to set down and eat and nobody was there and I
happened to look on the outside and Mr. Shelley was standing outside
with Miss Sarah Stanton, I believe her name is, and I said, "Well, I'll
go out there and talk with them, sit down and eat my lunch out there,
set on the steps," so I went out there.
Mr. Ball.
You ate your lunch on the steps?
Mr. Lovelady.
Yes, sir.
Mr. Ball.
Who was with you?
Mr. Lovelady.
Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton, and right behind me
Mr. Ball.
What was that last name?
Mr. Lovelady.
Stanton.
Mr. Ball.
What is the first name?
Mr. Lovelady.
Bill Shelley.
Mr. Ball.
And Stanton's first name?
Mr. Lovelady.
Miss Sarah Stanton.
Mr. Ball.
Did you stay on the steps
Mr. Lovelady.
Yes.
Mr. Ball.
Were you there when the President's motorcade went by
Mr. Lovelady.
Right.
Mr. Ball.
Did you hear anything?
Mr. Lovelady.
Yes, sir; sure did.
Mr. Ball.
What did you hear?
Mr. Lovelady.
I thought it was firecrackers or somebody celebrating the arrival
of the President. It didn't occur to me at first what had happened until
this Gloria came running up to us and told us the President had been shot.
Mr. Ball.
Who was this girl?
Mr. Lovelady.
Gloria Calvary.
Mr. Ball.
Gloria Calvary?
Mr. Lovelady.
Yes.
Mr. Ball.
Where does she work?
Mr. Lovelady.
Southwestern Publishing Co.
Mr. Ball.
Where was the direction of the sound?
Mr. Lovelady.
Right there around that concrete little deal on that knoll.
Mr. Ball.
That's where it sounded to you?
Mr. Lovelady.
Yes, sir; to my right. I was standing as you are going down the
steps, I was standing on the right, sounded like it was in that area.
Mr. Ball.
From the underpass area?
Mr. Lovelady.
Between the underpass and the building right on that knoll.

[Anthony Marsh]

When?
And here's a technical question for you. If someone is standing in the
doorway is he inside or out? Too tough for you?

[Anthony Marsh]

Are you sure you're posting in the right newsgroup?
Sounds as though this should be in alt.building.construction.codes

[Anthony Marsh]

If you open the door and stand in the doorway are you inside the house
or outside?

[Anthony Marsh]

Did you ever see an atrium? The kind without a roof, not with a roof.
Is that inside the building or outside?
This whole discussion is silly and just meant to appease Cinque.
Oswald was not on the steps whether the steps were inside the building
or outside. Not on any steps.

[mainframetech]

What a shame. There are no researchers around to answer this silly
problem for these people. They'll argue until the cows come home and
won't get anywhere. For those that pretend they're researchers, go look
up Carolyn Arnold and her REAL statement about Oswald and his location
during the shooting. She saw him at 12:15pm in the 2nd floor lunchroom
eating. The FBI had questioned her and then completely lied about her
statements and changed them all around. She found out about it in 1978
and was able to get the story straightened out, but by then folks had the
wrong idea and the suckers passed it on until it became believed. At
about the same time folks outside were seeing one or two men in the 6th
floor window with a gun. So it wasn't Oswald that was seen there. And a
number of people at the TSBD saw Oswald just before the shooting started,
and he was inside on th esecond and first floors.

Chris

[Anthony Marsh]

On 10/20/2015 6:18 PM, Ralph Cinque wrote:
> No rational person would have trouble grasping the meaning of: "I was out
> with Bill Shelley in front."
>

He didn't say that.

> Oswald named someone who was out there, which he could only do if he was
> there himself.
>

Not logically true. He could SEE him out there from inside.

> Also, by naming someone who was out there, he was declaring his
> expectation that this person would vouch for him. It's as though he said:
>
> "Just ask Bill Shelley. He'll tell you that I was out there."
>
> I realize that Shelley did NOT, in fact, confirm it, but still, it's clear
> as a bell that Oswald expected that he would; he thought that he would.
>
> And there's this thing that people do; it's called LYING. And I'm not
> talking about Oswald but Shelley. I am saying, directly and decidedly,
> that Shelley lied, that he knew damn-well that Oswald was out there. He
> lied; he bold-faced lied.
>

How would he know if Oswald was BEHIND him and he's watching the motorcade?
Zapruder didn't see the shooter because the shooter was BEHIND him.

> Why are you giving more weight to a remark that Oswald made to a reporter
> in the hall, and one that was framed and phrased by the reporter, than to
> what Oswald told police?
>

You don't know what Oswald told the police.

[Anthony Marsh]

He's not the only one. Some Nazis also.