A question
Sarahh
last line.
Someone else read this poem and accused me of stealing this term, pointing
out that Pink Floyde (?) have a song entitled this.
I honestly didn't know who Pink Floyde was up until they mentioned this
(please don't flame me for not knowing who they are, I grew up in a military
household listening to military band music).
Anyway, *should* I try and change the last line of this poem even though
'comfortably numb' describes what I was feeling perfectly and I didn't
realise it had been used before?
Am I not allowed to use the term now that another person has used it? Or
can I continue to use it, but always note at the end of it that I didn't
plagarise the Pink Floyde song?
Any input would be greatly appreciated on this.
Cheers
Sarah
JAS Carter
"Sarahh" <gossam...@austarnet.com.au> warbled oh so charmingly:
>Recently I wrote a poem that included the term 'comfortably numb' in the
>last line.
Pink Floyd. That's immediately what popped into my head.
>Someone else read this poem and accused me of stealing this term, pointing
>out that Pink Floyde (?) have a song entitled this.
Yup.
>I honestly didn't know who Pink Floyde was up until they mentioned this
>(please don't flame me for not knowing who they are, I grew up in a military
>household listening to military band music).
>Anyway, *should* I try and change the last line of this poem even though
>'comfortably numb' describes what I was feeling perfectly and I didn't
>realise it had been used before?
Depends. Are you comfortable having people think of Pink Floyd when
they read your work and assuming you used the phrase deliberately?
Remember, you won't be there to explain your poem and defend the use
of the phrase.
Also remember, no one cares, really, what you were feeling. They care
only how you describe it. "But that's how it really happened" is one
of the most annoying things ever said.
>Am I not allowed to use the term now that another person has used it?
"Allowed"? Of course, you're allowed. I can use "the cow jumped over
the moon" in a poem, too, but then I have to deal with the
consequences: My readers would assume it was a deliberate reference.
You have a slight advantage in that some people might not know the
song "Comfortably Numb." You are at a grave disadvantage because of
the people who do, most are going to wonder why you're cribbing from
Pink Floyd. And once you know the reference, which you now do,
leaving the phrase in there is your choice to potentially mislead your
reader.
>Or can I continue to use it, but always note at the end of it that I didn't
>plagarise the Pink Floyde song?
I wouldn't consider two words from a song to be plagiarism even if you
knew the song. It's allusion, not plagiarism. But for those people
who connect the phrase to PF, no amount of disclaimer is going to make
it disconnect. And for those who *don't* connect it, your disclaimer
is going to forge the connection.
A disclaimer is a Bad Idea.
>Any input would be greatly appreciated on this.
Hope this helps.
Julie Carter
--
Who put the ram in the ram-a-lam-a-ding-dong?
Michael Cook
And I don't need no drugs to calm me
I have seen the writing on the wall
Don't think I need anything at all
No, don't think I need anything at all
All in all, it was all just bricks in the wall
All in all, you were all just bricks in the wall"
Pink Floyd
"*should* I try and change the last line of this poem even though
'comfortably numb' describes what I was feeling perfectly and I didn't
realise it had been used before?"
good question...
"Sarahh" <gossam...@austarnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:a6i6jd$1d0i$1...@austar-news.austarnet.com.au...
d'huit
Sarahh wrote in message
> Recently I wrote a poem that included the term 'comfortably numb' in the
> last line.
> Someone else read this poem and accused me of stealing this term, pointing
> out that Pink Floyde (?) have a song entitled this.
> Anyway, *should* I try and change the last line of this poem even though
> 'comfortably numb' describes what I was feeling perfectly and I didn't
> realise it had been used before?
>
> Am I not allowed to use the term now that another person has used it? Or
> can I continue to use it, but always note at the end of it that I didn't
> plagarise the Pink Floyde song?
>
> Sarah
***you've opened up a lovely can of worms<smile>. when you look at the
dictionary definition of plagiarize, you will note that it means to steal or
take an idea, passage, plot . . .etc. from somebody else and claim it as
one's own. (i am not a lawyer.) from a legal standpoint, this is a vague
definition, as there really are only a limited number of plot lines that can
be followed in the scope of writing any given tale, but the plot lines
become original work with the author's craftsmanship; and, in my unlearned
opinion, it is what one does with an idea in creative context that
determines if it was stolen or not; while a passage copied verbatim, speaks
for itself.
to my way of thinking and as i understand plagiarism, two "common" words do
not make a complete idea, passage, plot . . .etc. but, if those two words
or a single word were originally coined words, (as in, copyrighted trademark
"coka cola", or as in, ''numbfortable" off the top of my head) there could
be plagiarism involved, if it were contained in a published and recognizable
text or product, ie . . .copyrighted song, poem, documented speech, film,
product. . .etc . however, even coined words, that are not trademarks,
fall into a gray area, if they are not directly associated with a
copyrighted idea or product. (poems and songs are products, incidentally,
because they are marketable.) someone else has to enlighten me regarding
published and copyrighted titles used in a poem's body, which i do believe
fall into copyright law violations and that i would tend to put into
quotation marks, if i were referring to that title and the ideas that title
put forth, and capitalized it as its author did.
as i understand it, more than the two words, in a specifically usurped
context and concept, have to be used and falsely claimed as one's own
original work to be considered plagiarism, otherwise lawsuits would flood
the court systems and creativity would have to come to a standstill. my
rule of thumb is, when in doubt--turn the phrase or put quotations around
it. citing its source is often unnecessary. however, i am not a
lawyer<smile>
kate
>
>
j r sherman
no. you did not plagairized Pink Floyd. two words do not constitute theft.
having said that, there's a chance that some wouold accuse you of stealing from
Pink Floyd, because Pink Floyd did make that phrase somewhat popular a long
while back.
but legally you can use those two words in your poem, and thePink Floyd lawyers
will not come after you.
and if they do? you can sue them for harrassment, and make a nice little bundle
for yourself! so, if i were you, i'd hope that the Pink Floyd lawyers DO come
after you! :D
but they won't, so everything's cool, you just don't have any harrassment money.
good luck,
most sincerely,
j r "There is no pain you are receding
A distant ship, smoke on the horizon.
You are only coming through in waves.
Your lips move but I can't hear what you're saying.
When I was a child
I caught a fleeting glimpse
Out of the corner of my eye.
I turned to look but it was gone
I cannot put my finger on it now
The child is grown,
The dream is gone.
I have become comfortably numb."
sherman
Poopsy Charmicheal
> In article <a6i6jd$1d0i$1...@austar-news.austarnet.com.au>, "Sarahh" says...
> >
> >Recently I wrote a poem that included the term 'comfortably numb' in the
> >last line.
> >Someone else read this poem and accused me of stealing this term,
pointing
> >out that Pink Floyde (?) have a song entitled this.
> >I honestly didn't know who Pink Floyde was up until they mentioned this
> >(please don't flame me for not knowing who they are, I grew up in a
military
> >household listening to military band music).
You grew up in a military household, listening to *military band" music?
Did you not have a radio?
> >Anyway, *should* I try and change the last line of this poem even though
> >'comfortably numb' describes what I was feeling perfectly and I didn't
> >realise it had been used before?
> >
> >Am I not allowed to use the term now that another person has used it? Or
> >can I continue to use it, but always note at the end of it that I didn't
> >plagarise the Pink Floyde song?
> >
> >Any input would be greatly appreciated on this.
> >
> >Cheers
> >Sarah
>
I don't think there is any legal problem. But because very few people grew
up listening exclusively to military band music, your readers will be
distracted from your message by your use of those words. Find another way to
express the feeling.
Love,
Poopsy
Southside Steve
As you stated to me I should read more poetry maybe you should listen to
more music.
Sorry I was always under the impression that poetry is about expression.
So is music just poetry to a melody another expression. Nowdays everyone
wants proper technique, want to "imitate" instead of create. I believe
individuality of the writers are what is importiant. Who knows maybe my
dribble will attract those normally rurned off by the entitlement. then
again if we all need to write the same then read one poem - you've read them
all. Thanks
By the way Use comfortably numb just not as a title, keep it as only two
words in the end = your work not Pink Floyd - unless you're getting together
a band.
"JAS Carter" <jsgo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3c8ed253....@news.supernews.com...
sk...@nowhere.man
<gossam...@austarnet.com.au> wrote:
I find it much more interesting, amazing actually, that you would so
heavily weight some total idiot who suggested the use of two words is
'plagairizing'; That HAS to be the stoopidist thing published on this
NG today, NOT a mean feat as I'm sure all will readily concede;
WHY are YOU so given to thinking this 'person' has a significant
point? Two Words?? Not 'EVEN' a sentence?
There's an excellant chance that 2/3 if not 3/4 of the world's
population don't even know who or what a 'Pink Floyd' IS (I've seen
them, myownselfsome, in another age, so I know);
Many of your generation won't know or could care less, while perhaps
'half' of those who gained their majority in the 60's and 70's
probably DO know Pink Floyd, but of them less than 10 percent MAYBE
will immediately recognize 'comfortably numb' as something they have
or might have heard in a song; But C'MON, how can you possibly imagine
there would be a legal or ethical issue over two words that were
written in a song? If that was true, then there would be a thriving
business in copywriting and filing suit over ANYTHING that MIGHT be
used by ANYBODY, like, "Woke up, Got out of bed, Ran a comb across my
head"; the use of any two-consecutive-words of which is NOT
plagairizing;, And even if you WERE to use the whole sentence, it
would be considered quotational reference, BECAUSE it would be readily
recognizeable by many folks as a pop Beatles tune;
My suggestion would be to firmly place the 'source' of the
'plagairaize' claim/insult to you in the 'asshole/idiot' file;
Firmly;
JR's advice was spot-on, if Pink Floyd sues the resulting publicity
will make your fame, with fortune sure to follow;
In other words, 'never happen';
Beyond that, 'IF' your 'reading audience' were to judge you or your
work based 'solely' or heavily based on this two-word useage, I'd
seriously consider/suggest not-giving a fig for what they think, and
think myself well-acquitted for having provoked such small-minded
petty stoopid people in the first-place;
There *is* somebody on this NG posting regularly who wrote a poem
about a year-ago that had the same title and significant
details/POV/setting/conclusion as something I wrote about a
year-and-a-half previous, which I was inspired to write from something
somebody else wrote, although my writing was essentially new and
different and had an original conclusion; I don't think the person
deliberately borrowed heavily on mine, but the coincidence sure was
uncanny, and I can't explain it other than that sometimes ideas are
just similiar to something written because we subconsciously are
sometimes inspired by postings here or what we read; Occasionally I'll
be inspired by something posted here or on a NG, and be moved to write
something, so depending on how close it models I'll post it as an
'ob/poem' with acknowledgment, or if it's sufficiently 'different'
I'll still acknowledge a work's title and author, simply BECAUSE I
(and many other creative folks, especially writers) take their work
seriously AND issues of plagairizing seriously (which they/we SHOULD);
Which is WHY I would metaphorically kick-the-person who 'gave you' the
plagairize-complaint in the teeth; How DARE they assume the intent w/o
checking with you first, or giving you the-benefit-of-their-doubt
before discussing it with you, hearing your explanation; if this
person is a friend, I'd suggest making them past-tense, THAT's how
strong I'd feel about it;
I communicated with the person who wrote the poem that closely
mirrored mine, and accepted their explanation (I reposted my original
post to them from the archives);
No foul;
So, get real and get-back to 'work';
(heh-heh!)
skye
Chris Keelan
Hash: SHA1
Dateline: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 23:25:26 GMT: laying low until the bleeding
stops, "Southside Steve" <vze3...@verizon.net> transmits:
> Julie,
> As you stated to me I should read more poetry maybe you should listen to
> more music.
Why, did Julie start writing songs?
> Sorry I was always under the impression that poetry is about expression.
> So is music just poetry to a melody another expression.
"Expression" implies communication and *how* you are expressing is as
important as *what* you are expressing. You seem to enjoy expressing
yourself in music. Do you wail on your instrument, paying no attention
to intonation, intensity, metre or key? Why do people who spend years
mastering a musical instrument seem to think that any shit they post
to a newsgroup qualifies as poetry? I don't really expect you to
answer that.
> Nowdays everyone wants proper technique, want to "imitate" instead
> of create.
Genius, there is no art form: not visual art, not music, not dance,
not photography, not poetry, which does not demand the attainment of a
minimum level of technique. Prove me wrong. Pick up an instrument
you've never played before. Now play it; go on, express
yourself. Record this fabulous outpouring of your True
Creativity[TM]. Play the recording for others. Observe their
reactions. Now defend your "art" with the assertion that it must be
music because you were "expressing your True Creativity[TM]"
Pick up an SLR camera. Load any speed film any way you like. Start
taking pictures with no attention to exposure time, f-stops, lighting
conditions, shake, etc. Now have your pictures developed at
WalMart. Show them to people. Bask in the glow of their admiration --
not!
>I believe individuality of the writers are what is
> importiant.
If you don't read any poetry, how do you know that what you're doing
is in any way individual? To paraphrase Dostoevsky "Bad poets are all
alike, all good poets are good in their own way".
Beginners in every art, including music, tend to make identical
mistakes--they will all play a song badly in the same way. There's a
reason for this. The "mistakes" actually represent points on the
technical learning curve.
> Who knows maybe my dribble will attract those normally
> rurned off by the entitlement.
Please restate the above two sentences in common English. Concordances
with consensus reality would also be appreciated.
>then again if we all need to write the same then read one poem -
>you've read them all.
This sounds like the statement of someone who *hasn't* read any
poetry.
> Thanks By the way Use comfortably numb just not as a title, keep it
> as only two words in the end = your work not Pink Floyd - unless
> you're getting together a band.
Sarahh, if you're reading this. Steve-o has just given you the
illiterate's POV on this issue. You may be aiming at a *slightly*
different audience. Adjust your salt doseage accordingly.
~ C
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JAS Carter
<vze3...@verizon.net> spake unto the internet:
>Julie,
> As you stated to me I should read more poetry maybe you should listen to
>more music.
Funny you should mention music. I'm listening to "La Traviata" as I
type this.
Verdi is god.
--
Julie Carter
Sarahh
I just needed comeone to reassure me that I was, indeed, not plagiarising.
The person that actually said this to me is actually someone off a yahoo!
groups poetry club. He's just someone that comments on his like/dislike for
each poem submitted. Considering his long history in criticising and
tearing poems to shreds I figured his claim warranted a little further
investigation. I certainly should have known better than to take him
seriously when I don't agree with anything he says anyway. There is a huge
personality conflict between us.
Thankyou for your help.
I'll gladly claim the 'stupidist post' award for today ;) I just wanted to
clear the issue up in my own mind :)
Cheers
Sarah
"Chris Keelan" <rufm...@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:20020311192015.2...@rogers.com...
Colin Ward
<gossam...@austarnet.com.au> wrote:
>Recently I wrote a poem that included the term 'comfortably numb' in the
>last line.
>Someone else read this poem and accused me of stealing this term, pointing
>out that Pink Floyde (?) have a song entitled this.
>I honestly didn't know who Pink Floyde was up until they mentioned this
>(please don't flame me for not knowing who they are, I grew up in a military
>household listening to military band music).
Hi, Sarahh,
First, let me remark that this thread has
been very interesting, with Chris Keelan's
remarks comments being particularly cogent and
well presented. Before we leave this issue,
though, I would like to make a point which may
have gotten lost in the shuffle. Sarahh:
Break every land speed record getting to the
nearest music store. Sell your first born if you
must, but dredge up the money to buy "The Wall"
and "Wish You Were Here" by Pink Floyd (some would
add "Dark Side of the Moon" to this must-have list).
The songs on these CDs are cultural icons. I mean
no disrespect when I (who also grew up on military
bases, by the way) express my surprise that we
have actually found a human being on this planet
who has not heard "Comfortably Numb". Most Nanonaimo
have. Even some Winnipeggers have! Assuming that
you are not "having us on", Sarahh, let me understate
that life has some very pleasant musical surprises in
store for you.
Believe it or not, I ain't a big Pink Floyd fan.
However, in the unlikely event that a list of "100
Best Songs" ever appears without "Comfortably Numb",
"Wish You Were Here" or "Have a Cigar" on it the
author of said list should be drug tested and/or
drafted to judge Olympic figure skating.
Umm, you *have* heard of Bob Dylan, right, Sarahh?
Just checking.
Colin
Winnipeg, Manitoba
Michael Cook
What about the poet/singer?
First and foremost:
Leonard Cohen
"Closing Time"
"Famous Blue Raincoat"
just to name a few.
Leonard Cohen
"Closing Time"
Ah we're drinking and we're dancing
and the band is really happening
and the Johnny Walker wisdom running high
And my very sweet companion
she's the Angel of Compassion
she's rubbing half the world against her thigh
And every drinker every dancer
lifts a happy face to thank her
the fiddler fiddles something so sublime
all the women tear their blouses off
and the men they dance on the polka-dots
and it's partner found, it's partner lost
and it's hell to pay when the fiddler stops:
it's CLOSING TIME
Yeah the women tear their blouses off
and the men they dance on the polka-dots
and it's partner found, it's partner lost
and it's hell to pay when the fiddler stops:
it's CLOSING TIME
Ah we're lonely, we're romantic
and the cider's laced with acid
and the Holy Spirit's crying, "Where's the beef?"
And the moon is swimming naked
and the summer night is fragrant
with a mighty expectation of relief
So we struggle and we stagger
down the snakes and up the ladder
to the tower where the blessed hours chime
and I swear it happened just like this:
a sigh, a cry, a hungry kiss
the Gates of Love they budged an inch
I can't say much has happened since
but CLOSING TIME
I swear it happened just like this:
a sigh, a cry, a hungry kiss
the Gates of Love they budged an inch
I can't say much has happened since
CLOSING TIME
I loved you for your beauty
but that doesn't make a fool of me:
you were in it for your beauty too
and I loved you for your body
there's a voice that sounds like God to me
declaring, declaring, declaring that your body's really you
And I loved you when our love was blessed
and I love you now there's nothing left
but sorrow and a sense of overtime
and I missed you since the place got wrecked
And I just don't care what happens next
looks like freedom but it feels like death
it's something in between, I guess
it's CLOSING TIME
Yeah I missed you since the place got wrecked
By the winds of change and the weeds of sex
looks like freedom but it feels like death
it's something in between, I guess
it's CLOSING TIME
Yeah we're drinking and we're dancing
but there's nothing really happening
and the place is dead as Heaven on a Saturday night
And my very close companion
gets me fumbling gets me laughing
she's a hundred but she's wearing
something tight
and I lift my glass to the Awful Truth
which you can't reveal to the Ears of Youth
except to say it isn't worth a dime
And the whole damn place goes crazy twice
and it's once for the devil and once for Christ
but the Boss don't like these dizzy heights
we're busted in the blinding lights,
busted in the blinding lights
of CLOSING TIME
The whole damn place goes crazy twice
and it's once for the devil and once for Christ
but the Boss don't like these dizzy heights
we're busted in the blinding lights,
busted in the blinding lights
of CLOSING TIME
Oh the women tear their blouses off the men they dance on the polka-dots
It's CLOSING TIME
And it's partner found, it's partner lost
and it's hell to pay when the fiddler stops
It's CLOSING TIME
I swear it happened just like this:
a sigh, a cry, a hungry kiss
It's CLOSING TIME
The Gates of Love they budged an inch
I can't say much has happened since
But CLOSING TIME
I loved you when our love was blessed
I love you now there's nothing left
But CLOSING TIME
I miss you since the place got wrecked
By the winds of change and the weeds of sex.
Colin Ward
<coo...@ameritech.net> wrote:
>Colin,
>
>What about the poet/singer?
>First and foremost:
>Leonard Cohen
>"Closing Time"
>"Famous Blue Raincoat"
>just to name a few.
>
>Leonard Cohen
>"Closing Time"
I couldn't agree more, Michael! You
may know from some of my other posts that,
as a Cohen fan, I take a back to no one.
In fact, I would guess that many habitués
of this newsgroup are tired of me bringing
up the subjects of Leonard Cohen and the
master, John Stewart. Hence, I went with
Bob Dylan. No shame in being second best.
Are you familiar with Cohen's earlier
works? If not, or if you feel that "Famous
Blue Raincoat" and "Closing Time" rank among
his finest works, Leonard may have some
wonderful musical and lyrical surprises in
store for you. I would draw your attention
to "Avalanche", "Who by Fire", "Gypsy Wife",
"Suzanne", "If It Be Your Will", "The Partisan",
"God is Alive, Magic is Afoot" and "Priests"
for starters. Enjoy, my friend.
Colin
"Who will write love songs for you
When I am lord at last
And your body is some little highway shrine
That all my priests have passed?"
- "Priests", by Leonard Cohen
as sung by Judy Collins
Sarahh
I'm afraid I've settled for merely downloading the song off the internet.
I *would* try to sell my first born, but I honestly think I'd have to pay
someone else to take her. She has a little too much attitude for an 18
month old ;)
Anyway, I'll listen to this song and maybe download a few others.
Ummm...I have *heard* of Bob Dylan. I wouldn't actually know what he sings
though...he sings right? lol
Sarah - completely clueless :D
"Colin Ward" <c...@escape.ca> wrote in message
news:lq5r8ucccu1e0p0cq...@4ax.com...
Jim Sheard
<c...@escape.ca> wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Mar 2002 22:04:20 +1000, "Sarahh"
> <gossam...@austarnet.com.au> wrote:
>
>>Recently I wrote a poem that included the term 'comfortably numb' in the
>>last line.
>>Someone else read this poem and accused me of stealing this term,
>>pointing out that Pink Floyde (?) have a song entitled this. I honestly
>>didn't know who Pink Floyde was up until they mentioned this (please
>>don't flame me for not knowing who they are, I grew up in a military
>>household listening to military band music).
>
> Hi, Sarahh,
>
> First, let me remark that this thread has
> been very interesting, with Chris Keelan's remarks comments being
> particularly cogent and well presented. Before we leave this issue,
> though, I would like to make a point which may have gotten lost in the
> shuffle.
Coming in late on the inside rail, I don't think that Roger 'Ego the Size
of Jupiter' Waters did coin the phrase, in fact. I remember my father (a
dentist) using it as a fairly standard description of the effects of
local anaesthetic. The phrase seemed to have a colloquial-technical
meaning among his fellow practioners of the sadistic arts.
Furthermore, I also seem to remember the phrase having widespread
currency as a euphemism for 'drunk' (cf. 'feeling no pain'), and I'm
fairly sure that predated the song.
Jim
JAS Carter
Sheard" <j...@jsheard.co.uk> warbled oh so charmingly:
>Coming in late on the inside rail, I don't think that Roger 'Ego the Size
>of Jupiter' Waters did coin the phrase, in fact. I remember my father (a
>dentist) using it as a fairly standard description of the effects of
>local anaesthetic. The phrase seemed to have a colloquial-technical
>meaning among his fellow practioners of the sadistic arts.
>
>Furthermore, I also seem to remember the phrase having widespread
>currency as a euphemism for 'drunk' (cf. 'feeling no pain'), and I'm
>fairly sure that predated the song.
But just as I would notice if someone had "are you lonesome tonight"
or "oops, I did it again" in the text of a poem, I would notice
"comfortably numb" and it would make me think of Pink Floyd. That
doesn't mean Elvis invented the phrase "are you lonesome tonight." I
don't know a damned thing about Elvis, so I don't even know (though I
doubt it) if he wrote his own songs.
Your father was a dentist? This explains much.
Michael Cook
I have not heard some of songs you listed but soon will,
thanks for tip.
mdc
"Colin Ward" wrote in message > >First and foremost:
j r sherman
>
>Colin,
>
>I have not heard some of songs you listed but soon will,
>thanks for tip.
>
>mdc
michael, for lyrics, might i also suggest Phil Ochs! in my opinion the second
best lyricist of the 60s, behind the mighty Bob Dylan, of course.
but hey, ya can't go wrong with Leonard either. go out there an enjoy, there's
an ocean of good lyricists out there.
most sincerely,
j r sherman
j r sherman
jim....you're dad's a dentist? did he ever, like ya know, have you in the
dentist chair, and repeat, over and over again:
"Is it safe? Tell me, is it safe?"
in a creepy sort of German accent?
just curious.
Colin Ward
<gossam...@austarnet.com.au> wrote:
>Colin,
>I'm afraid I've settled for merely downloading the song off the internet.
>I *would* try to sell my first born, but I honestly think I'd have to pay
>someone else to take her. She has a little too much attitude for an 18
>month old ;)
>Anyway, I'll listen to this song and maybe download a few others.
>
>Ummm...I have *heard* of Bob Dylan. I wouldn't actually know what he sings
>though...he sings right? lol
Now you're scarin' me, Sarah.
Colin
j r sherman
colin, colin, it's okay...maybe it's an aussie thing, or something?
Sarahh,
go here:
http://orad.dent.kyushu-u.ac.jp/dylan/song.html
for MP3s, go here:
http://home.primus.com.au/taffyc/
this is a good place to start.
please, sarahh, both colin and i are trying to save your imortal soul, since
neither of us have a soul any more.
(i sold mine for an eightball and naked pictures of Donna Reed, i don't know
what colin got for his).
Colin Ward
wrote:
>In article <x2qj8.9463$k5.36...@newssvr28.news.prodigy.com>, "Michael says...
>>
>>Colin,
>>
>>I have not heard some of songs you listed but soon will,
>>thanks for tip.
>>
>>mdc
>
>michael, for lyrics, might i also suggest Phil Ochs! in my opinion the second
>best lyricist of the 60s, behind the mighty Bob Dylan, of course.
Phil Ochs is a reasonable choice. But if our tastes
run to the strident--as mine do--we might prefer Buffy
Ste. Marie. We may differ on which is the better lyricist
(Buffy or Phil) but, for what it's worth, I'm sure that
we agree that Buffy could sing circles around Phil, Bob
and Leonard--or anyone short of Grace Slick, for that
matter.
>but hey, ya can't go wrong with Leonard either. go out there an enjoy, there's
>an ocean of good lyricists out there.
Well, maybe not an ocean. A pond, perhaps.
Indeed, the list is alarmingly small. I think
that if any of us were to try to create a list
of 25 good English-language lyricists we might
feel that we are beginning to stretch around #20.
Nevertheless, it is an interesting exercise.
This would be mine:
1. Leonard Cohen. Of course.
Cohen is recognized as the only actual poet
on this list. Unlike others, his lyrics do
not seem "flat" on paper. Now we have a
percipitous drop down to:
2. Bob Dylan. Of course.
As singers, Cohen and Dylan seem to exist
only to make us appreciate the other's voice.
3. John Stewart. Of course.
4. Stan Rogers. Of course.
5. Buffy Ste. Marie
6. Simon & Garfunkle
7. Bruce Cockburn
8. Neil Young
9. Ferron
10. John Prine (especially EARLY John Prine).
11. Peter Gabriel
12. Pink Floyd
13. The Joans: Mitchell and Baez.
14. Lennie Gallant
15. Gordon Lightfoot
16. Al Stewart (notably "Road to Moscow")
17. Phil Ochs
18. Harry Chapin (more allegorist than lyricist)
19. Sinead O'Connor
20. Alan Price
21. Tony Bird
22. Chris de Burgh
23. Steve Goodman (for "Souvenirs" & "The Dutchman")
24. Kansas (but ONLY for "Dust in the Wind")
25. Cat Stevens (excruciating when bad, though)
I may be missing one or two. At my age, the
mind is the first to go. Clearly, though, any list
that includes Kansas and Cat Stevens (easily the
best music writer on this list) is already showing
stretch marks bigger than Mrs. Dionne's after her
quintuplets.
Some might add the Beatles, Led Zeppelin,
Michel Legrand, James Keelaghan, The Who, The Eagles,
The Rolling Stones and/or a few others to this list.
You may wish to try doing a web search of some
of these names in the hopes of drumming up some MP3's.
Good hunting!
Anyone tempted to add Barry Manilow, David Essex,
Rod McKuen, Dion or the Bee Gees to this august list
has crossed the Cat Stevens threshold and is excused
from further participation in this discussion of
lyricists. :)
Colin Ward
wrote:
>In article <l4js8u8d35etobhpo...@4ax.com>, Colin says...
>>
>>On Tue, 12 Mar 2002 20:03:51 +1000, "Sarahh"
>><gossam...@austarnet.com.au> wrote:
>>
>>>Colin,
>>>I'm afraid I've settled for merely downloading the song off the internet.
>>>I *would* try to sell my first born, but I honestly think I'd have to pay
>>>someone else to take her. She has a little too much attitude for an 18
>>>month old ;)
>>>Anyway, I'll listen to this song and maybe download a few others.
>>>
>>>Ummm...I have *heard* of Bob Dylan. I wouldn't actually know what he sings
>>>though...he sings right? lol
>>
>> Now you're scarin' me, Sarah.
>>
>>Colin
>
>colin, colin, it's okay...maybe it's an aussie thing, or something?
>
>Sarahh,
<SNIP>
>please, sarahh, both colin and i are trying to save your imortal soul, since
>neither of us have a soul any more.
True. And remember, Sarahh, they don't call J.R.
the "Value Added Saviour" for nothing.
>(i sold mine for an eightball and naked pictures of Donna Reed, i don't know
>what colin got for his).
You got an EIGHTBALL, too? Damn. I wuz ROBBED!
JAS Carter
unto the internet:
Cole Porter
Harold Arlen
Ira Gershwin
Lorenz Hart
Dorothy Fields
Freedy Johnston
--
Julie Carter
Jim Sheard
<jsgo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
True, of course. Interesting, though, that a cultural artefact can so
hijack a piece of language. Getting 'oops I did it again' into a serious poem
might be an interesting challenge.
> Your father was a dentist? This explains much.
My sensitivity and kindness to helpless creatures, I take it?
Jim
--
AAPC FAQ & Resources
http://www.aapcsite.plus.com/
Jim Sheard
<jr...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> jim....you're dad's a dentist? did he ever, like ya know, have you in
> the dentist chair, and repeat, over and over again:
>
> "Is it safe? Tell me, is it safe?"
>
> in a creepy sort of German accent?
Heh. Great scene. I have to say no, although he did:
1. remove most of my mother's teeth for clinical practice, shortly after
qualifying
2. have a disturbing slide collection of oral deformities to show at
parties
3. remove most of my baby teeth a little earlier than required - and then
made a set of dentures for me
...and a number of other normal dentist behaviours. The Olivier scene was
just another day at the surgery for me - young Jim playing with the gas in
the corner, Dad doing something unspeakable to the grown-up in the chair.
Peter J Ross
> 1. Leonard Cohen. Of course.
> 2. Bob Dylan. Of course.
Indisputable.
Also:
Country Joe McDonald ("Tricky Dicky", "Feel Like I'm Fixin' to Die
Rag" etc)
Viv Stanshall (ye olde bonzoe dogge).
Frank. ("Frank who?" you ask. There's only one Frank, you ignorant
plastic people, and it ain't Sinatra.)
PJR :-)
--
"Oh baby, now you're such a drag."
j r sherman
p...@britishlibrary.net says...
>
>Colin Ward <c...@escape.ca> wrote in message
>news:<69ks8ugj2l8ef3a2g...@4ax.com>...
>
>> 1. Leonard Cohen. Of course.
>> 2. Bob Dylan. Of course.
>
>Indisputable.
>
>Also:
>
>Country Joe McDonald ("Tricky Dicky", "Feel Like I'm Fixin' to Die
>Rag" etc)
>
>Viv Stanshall (ye olde bonzoe dogge).
>
>Frank. ("Frank who?" you ask. There's only one Frank, you ignorant
>plastic people, and it ain't Sinatra.)
Zappa, of course. give me a break! :)
j r
Peter J Ross
alt.arts.poetry.comments tavern, downed a triple Pernod-and-water, and
stammered:
> In article <ced5746f.02031...@posting.google.com>,
> p...@britishlibrary.net says...
>
> >Frank. ("Frank who?" you ask. There's only one Frank, you ignorant
> >plastic people, and it ain't Sinatra.)
>
> Zappa, of course. give me a break! :)
I know /you/ know. I was expecting somebody like the idiot Charlotte
to guess "Frank Drebbin".
I notice you're being nice to the Charlotte troll, by the way. Your
claim that you're more evil than I am grows ever less convincing.
PJR ;-)
d'huit
carol king
cosby, stills, nash & young
jefferson airplane
jim croce
blood, sweat & tears
james taylor
carly simon
and yoko ono, who wrote "imagine"(and not, john lennon who took the credit
for it, until years later).
kate
>
>
>
> --
> Julie Carter
>
>
>
david
a lyricst -- his standard lyricists partners are/were Alan and Marilyn
Bergman.
David
"d'huit" <jus...@nospam.com> wrote in message news:<hQXj8.8286$tP2.7...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
d'huit
but, you are correct about legrand and the bergmans.
kate
"david" <davidtra...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f7edb3bc.02031...@posting.google.com...
Will Dockery
And, indeed, can't go wrong with Leonard Cohen, can we?
:)
Michael Pendragon
You're familiar with some of the better known folk artists of the 60s and 70s, and are desperately attempting to justify your poetic ignorance by digging up 16-year old posts about them.
I strongly suggest your investing in a copy of "The Norton Anthology of Poetry," and reading it from cover to cover as an introduction to the subject. In the meantime, you might want to consider limiting your folk singer posts to the Dylan group, where you they won't make you appear like an illiterate fucktard in denial.
HtH and you're welcome.
drive-by
NancyGene
https://the-eye.eu/public/Books/Poetry/The%20Norton%20Anthology%20of%20Poetry.pdf
2182 pages
Michael Pendragon
drive-by
Will Dockery
> I strongly suggest your investing in a copy of "The Norton Anthology of Poetry," and reading it from cover to cover as an introduction to the subject. In the meantime, you might want to consider limiting your folk singer posts to the Dylan group, where you they won't make you appear like an illiterate fucktard in denial.
>
> HtH and you're welcome.
Hope that helps you... read, comment... or ignore.
Michael Pendragon
>
by one of the major poets of the group of that time... your opinion is fine for you to present, as far as quality poetry, but it remains just your opinion, Pendragon.
>
An occasional music post in a poetry group is acceptable. But when you flood the group with music posts, you shift the focus from poetry.
This is more of the same shit you tried to pull last year when you, Rachel and Pick were trying to turn a.a.p.c. into a subsidiary of rec.arts.bob.dylan.fans.
You continually claim that you're here for the poetry, so try sticking to poetry-related topics. One folkie post per day is more than enough.
Will Dockery
If the threads about these poets don't interest you, do what I do when something doesn't interest me... ignore the post, skip over that post.
Seems simple, really.
Michael Pendragon
Will Dockery
>
> The fact is that they are folk singer-songwriters. If you wish to consider them "poets," that's fine. But please limit yourself to one music post a day, or move it on over to the Dylan group (preferably with Pick and Rachel in tow).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Cohen
"Leonard Norman Cohen CC GOQ (September 21, 1934 – November 7, 2016) was a Canadian singer-songwriter, poet and novelist. His work explored religion, politics, isolation, sexuality, and personal relationships.[2] Cohen was inducted into the Canadian Music Hall of Fame, the Canadian Songwriters Hall of Fame, and the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. He was a Companion of the Order of Canada, the nation's highest civilian honour. In 2011, Cohen received one of the Prince of Asturias Awards for literature and the ninth Glenn Gould Prize.
Cohen pursued a career as a poet and novelist during the 1950s and early 1960s; he did not launch a music career until 1967, at the age of 33..."
Leonard Cohen is/was a poet, that is an established fact.
drive-by
Will Dockery
drive-by
Brooke
> No shit, Will. They were made 16 years ago. Why are you bumping them now?
> You continually claim that you're here for the poetry
Richard Oakley
NancyGene
ME
Will Dockery
>
> You're making it painfully obvious that you don't read poetry, don't know anything about poetry, and have no interest in poetry.
>
> You're familiar with some of the better known folk artists of the 60s and 70s
While you know little or nothing about any modern poetry from that era, or you don't want to know about it.
A good place for you to start learning about these poets is the basic "Portable Beat Reader":
https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/323820/the-portable-beat-reader-by-various/9780142437537/
"ABOUT THE PORTABLE BEAT READER
Beginning in the late 1940’s, American literature discovered a four-letter word, and the word was “beat.” Beat as in poverty and beatitude, ecstasy and exile. Beat was Jack Kerouac touring the American road in prose as fast and reckless as a V-8 Chevy. It was the junk-sick surrealism of William Burroughs; the wild, Whitmanesque poetry of Allen Ginsberg; and the lumberjack Zen of Gary Snyder.
The Portable Beat Reader collects the most significant writing of these and fellow members (and spiritual descendants) of the Beat Generation, including Neal Cassady, Gregory Corso, Diane di Prima, Bob Dylan, Leroi Jones, and Michael McClure. In poetry, fiction, essays, song lyrics, letters, and memoirs, it captures the triumphant rudeness, energy, and exhilaration of a movement that swept through American letters with hurricane force..."
HthatH & HANevening.
Michael Pendragon
Will Dockery
I saw that but haven't gotten back to it yet.
Michael Pendragon
> Didn't you add Harlan Ellison to your book burning list?
>
> I saw that but haven't gotten back to it yet.
I've never read anything by Ellison, except for the "letter" he sent me scribbled on a series of Post-Its.
George J. Dance
Will Dockery
> On Wednesday, May 16, 2018 at 8:34:13 AM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
>
> > > > >I have not heard some of songs you listed but soon will,
> > > > >thanks for tip.
>
George J. Dance
Will Dockery
> On Friday, May 18, 2018 at 7:35:44 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>
> > > > > > michael, for lyrics, might i also suggest Phil Ochs! in my opinion the second
>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> I couldn't agree more, Michael! You
> > > > > > >> may know from some of my other posts that,
> > > > > > >> of this newsgroup are tired of me bringing
> > > > > > >> up the subjects of Leonard Cohen and the
> > > > > > >> master, John Stewart. Hence, I went with
> > > > > > >> Bob Dylan. No shame in being second best.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Blue Raincoat" and "Closing Time" rank among
> > > > > > >> his finest works, Leonard may have some
> > > > > > >> wonderful musical and lyrical surprises in
> > > > > > >> store for you. I would draw your attention
> > > > > > >> to "Avalanche", "Who by Fire", "Gypsy Wife",
> > > > > > >> "Suzanne", "If It Be Your Will", "The Partisan",
> > > > > > >> "God is Alive, Magic is Afoot" and "Priests"
> > > > > > >> for starters. Enjoy, my friend.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Colin
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> "Who will write love songs for you
> > > > > > >> When I am lord at last
> > > > > > >> And your body is some little highway shrine
> > > > > > >> That all my priests have passed?"
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> - "Priests", by Leonard Cohen
> > > > > > >> as sung by Judy Collins
> > > > >
> > > > > Again, with the Phil Ochs... and the "mighty" Bob Dylan.
> > > > >
> > > > > And, indeed, can't go wrong with Leonard Cohen, can we?
>
> > >
> > > Yeah, Will! And pay special attention to page 1854.
> >
> > Pendragon can use that page to light his bonfire of poets with.
>
> I'm surprised he missed it when he read the Norton Anthology "cover to cover." I mean, he has to have done that, right? He wouldn't suggest, as an "introduction" to the subject he's pontificating on, reading something he hasn't read himself, would he? No one in their right mind would do that.
https://library.villanova.edu/Find/Record/1261920/TOC
There's going to be a lot of missing pages in the 2019 Norton Anthology if Michael Pendragon gets his way.
:)
Michael Pendragon
It is nevertheless enlightening to read a cross-sampling of poetry from the various movements in what is the rough approximation of an historical timeline. The evolution-devolution of poetry can be clearly seen to peak artistically in the 19th Century, and to be steadily declining throughout that of the 20th.
General Zod
ME
These are almost as bad as y’all’s slurpies.
But nothing says friendship like looking in ‘mugshots’ to see where your good friend is.
Got it?
Will Dockery™
😊
Michael Pendragon
I'd rather clean up the environment than contribute to pollution.
ME
> Same flame war, different day.
>
> 😊
Will Dockery™
Michael Pendragon
> Bum burning?
Panhandler pyre... hobo holocaust... indigent inferno... what's not to get?
Ingredients: 12 feet of rope, 1 can of gasoline, 1 Zippo lighter.
Step one: firmly secure bum with rope, and hang from tree branch.
Step two: soak bum's clothing with gasoline.
Step three: set bum on fire. Cook until crispy and charred.
George J. Dance
Michael Pendragon
Will Dockery
news:3d7b6447-c1b6-4eea...@googlegroups.com...
Will Dockery
news:558bd753-10a0-4c8e...@googlegroups.com...
mydemon...@gmail.com
I wouldn't burn a book due to "obscene" or political content. I'd simply burn the garbage churned out by no-talent phonies like Bukowski, Kerouac and Ginsberg.
A "book burning censorship type" is either a self-proclaimed moral reformer of a fascistic leader attempting to silence political opposition. I am neither.
Unlike your pissbum self and pissbum buddies, I don't believe in dumpster diving -- either literally or, as in this instance, metaphorically.
General Zod
General Zod
Michael Pendragon
Rats, mice and other vermin spread disease and, for our own safety, we exterminate them.
Will Dockery
;)
Michael Pendragon
> Spoken like a true Nazi, Pendragon.
Most cultures have always attempted to exterminate vermin.
Will Dockery
> On Tuesday, December 24, 2019 at 12:17:25 AM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
>
> > Spoken like a true Nazi, Pendragon.
>
> We kill mice and rats in America, too
Michael Pendragon
I had a pet rat when I was in college, and would rate her above the majority of humans I have known.
As to Stink... he isn't worthy to kiss a rat's patoot.
General Zod
So you can continue with your foolish and childish fantasy of my death....
It merely shows you as the scumbag we already know you to be, Pendragon....
Michael Pendragon
We're currently discussing a quote by William Blake. Any thoughts on it?
General Zod
Michael Pendragon
> I am a fan of William Blake, so so continue.....
How do you interpret his statement?
Will Dockery
Zod-The...@none.i2p
Testing connection.....
Rocky
Will Dockery
>
> > > > While you know little or nothing about any modern poetry from that era,
> > > > or you don't want to know about it.
> > > >
> > > > A good place for you to start learning about these poets is the basic
> > > > "Portable Beat Reader":
> > > >
> > > > https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/323820/the-portable-beat-reader-by-various/9780142437537/
> > > >
> > > > "ABOUT THE PORTABLE BEAT READER
> > > > Beginning in the late 1940’s, American literature discovered a
> > > > four-letter word, and the word was “beat.” Beat as in poverty and
> > > > beatitude, ecstasy and exile. Beat was Jack Kerouac touring the American
> > > > road in prose as fast and reckless as a V-8 Chevy. It was the junk-sick
> > > > surrealism of William Burroughs; the wild, Whitmanesque poetry of Allen
> > > > Ginsberg; and the lumberjack Zen of Gary Snyder.
> > > >
> > > > The Portable Beat Reader collects the most significant writing of these
> > > > and fellow members (and spiritual descendants) of the Beat Generation,
> > > > including Neal Cassady, Gregory Corso, Diane di Prima, Bob Dylan, Leroi
> > > > Jones, and Michael McClure. In poetry, fiction, essays, song lyrics,
> > > > letters, and memoirs, it captures the triumphant rudeness, energy, and
> > > > exhilaration of a movement that swept through American letters with
> > > > hurricane force..."
>
> > > Ginsberg's garbage to Whitman has earned this book the top spot on my
> > > official burn list.
> >
> > > So you are a book burning censorship type are you?
> >
>
;)
Michael Pendragon
Speaking more realistically, I'd shred their works and place them in the recycle bin.
W.Dockery
:)
Michael Pendragon
NancyGene
Will Dockery
> We predict that as the 1950s/1960s recede into history, the literary reputations of those such as Bukowski, Kerouac and Ginsberg will shrink proportionately.
Michael Pendragon
Will Dockery
NancyGene
Will Dockery
While Ginsberg has had a steady high profile over the last 40-50 years, I've seen both Bukowski and Kerouac rise fro relative obscurity to superstar status over the last 40-50 years.
I've seen this happen, I'd have to Google any statistics.