Leonard Cohen also deserved Nobel?

[Will Dockery]

On Saturday, June 10, 2017 at 2:41:38 AM UTC-4, martyg...@gmail.com wrote:

https://www.rockerteeshirts.com/blogs/rockers-blog/bob-dylan-and-leonard-cohen-both-deserve-a-nobel

Leonard Cohen wrote some great poetry, prose and songs, true, and kept his integrity, focus and vision intact the entire time.

[Michael Pendragon]

Once they gave one out to Bob, *everyone* else automatically became equally entitled. I sent my 2 box tops and $0.25 in last Thursday, and am checking my mail box on a semi-regular basis.

[Michael Pendragon]

Hell, it didn't even start with Bob. They gave one to Obama just for getting elected President. That's like winning Employee of the Month just for showing up for work.

[Will Dockery]

Obama got the "Peace prize" version, while Dylan was over in the "Literature" section, though. I have a list of the other 100 or so winners, and wonder about how they rate with the readers here, I doubt very many will ring a bell with me:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_laureates_in_Literature

I see they started out with a French poet, who I am just now planning to investigate... anyone familiar with Sully Prudhomme, the 1901 winner?

"in special recognition of his poetic composition, which gives evidence of lofty idealism, artistic perfection and a rare combination of the qualities of both heart and intellect"

Or 1903 winner Bjørnstjerne Bjørnson, poet from Norway?

"as a tribute to his noble, magnificent and versatile poetry, which has always been distinguished by both the freshness of its inspiration and the rare purity of its spirit"

Frédéric Mistral, 1904 winner, another Frenchman:

"in recognition of the fresh originality and true inspiration of his poetic production, which faithfully reflects the natural scenery and native spirit of his people, and, in addition, his significant work as a Provençal philologist"

Well, that's enough to keep us in discussions for at least a week, I reckon.

:)

[Will Dockery]

Here's what they called his "most famous" poem, first Nobel Prize winning poet of 1901, Sully Prudhomme:

https://mypoeticside.com/show-classic-poem-22864

The vase where this verbena is dying
was cracked by a blow from a fan.
It must have barely brushed it,
for it made no sound.

But the slight wound,
biting into the crystal day by day,
surely, invisibly crept
slowly all around it.

The clear water leaked out drop by drop.
The flowers' sap was exhausted.
Still no one suspected anything.
Don't touch! It's broken.

Thus often does the hand we love,
barely touching the heart, wound it.
Then the heart cracks by itself
and the flower of its love dies.

Still intact in the eyes of the world,
it feels its wound, narrow and deep,
grow and softly cry.
It's broken. Don't touch!

[Michael Pendragon]

I read the above, as well as "Cradles" (same link), and am emphatically unimpressed.

The first poem is a drawn-out metaphor: cracked vase = broken heart. I doubt that a cracked vase would cause a plant to die, but ... whatever. It lacks both rhyme and meter, and reads like a passage from first grade primer: "The vase where this Verbena is dying was cracked by a blow from a fan. It must have barely brushed it, for it made no sound."

The second poem basically observes that ships take no notice of sailors' wives rocking cradles ... except on the day they set sail. Okay. It seems a bit presumptuous to assume that sailors would forget about their families as soon as they're at sea ... and hardly profound to note that familial ties have a hold on a man's spirit. Again, the actual poem, reads like a piece of second-rate prose.

[Will Dockery]

On Monday, June 12, 2017 at 1:21:33 AM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:

A lot of folks on the list, to say the least, have not stood the test of time (that I can see), including 1906 winner Giosuè Carducci.

"not only in consideration of his deep learning and critical research, but above all as a tribute to the creative energy, freshness of style, and lyrical force which characterize his poetic masterpieces..."

Finally, we come to 1907, and one of my favorite makes the list, Rudyard Kipling.

"in consideration of the power of observation, originality of imagination, virility of ideas and remarkable talent for narration that characterize the creations of this world-famous author..."

:)

[Michael Pendragon]

Agreed. Kipling's honor is well-merited.

[Will Dockery]

That's as far as I got on the list, but it is interesting that as a friend pointed out, there were no awards given during World War Two.

[George Dance]

On Sunday, June 11, 2017 at 2:58:31 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:

I'd say Cohen was eligible, but it wasn't Dylan who messed up his chances; it was Alice Munro. Canada got a Nobel Prize; no other Canadians of this generation (Atwood, Birney, Ondaatje, or whoever) are going to get one. As in, the Olympics: countries aren't supposed to count at all, but they do...

[Will Dockery]

And Dylan is the last from the USA for a while, also?

[George Dance]

I never read any Prudhomme; but that was a very bad translation. Here's the 1st first verse in the original. The poem's 3 most obvious strengths - the regular (long) meter, the perfect rhymes, and the vocabulary, a mix of 1, 2, and 3 syllable words - all missing in the translation:

Le vase où meurt cette verveine
D’un coup d’éventail fut fêlé;
Le coup dut l’effleurer à peine,
Aucun bruit ne l’a révélé.

I would need a dictionary to read the poem (and I'd probably need to do my own translation, which wouldn't be much better than the above); but even at first glance I can see the difference between the pair of lines "Don't touch! It's broken." and "It' broken. Don't touch!", and the lines in the original: "N’y touchez pas, il est brisé." and "Il est brisé, n’y touchez pas."

(I didn't bother with more than one.)

[George Dance]

I think so. U.S. and UK seem to win more than anyone, but the U.S. has won just 2 in this century, and the UK just 3.

[Michael Pendragon]

I hadn't realized they were translations. My sole comfort in living and dying in obscurity is that no one will ever bother to translate my poetry.

[Will Dockery]

Oh yeah, crappy translations... I see them for Rimbaud by the dozen, all different, mainly to suit the agenda of the translator.

[Will Dockery]

On Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 1:11:29 AM UTC-4, luisb...@aol.com wrote:
> On Monday, June 12, 2017 at 9:35:50 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> > On Monday, June 12, 2017 at 8:59:14 AM UTC-4, Grave Digger wrote:

> > > On Monday, June 12, 2017 at 8:41:07 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>
> > > > Obama got the "Peace prize" version, while Dylan was over in the "Literature" section, though. I have a list of the other 100 or so winners, and wonder about how they rate with the readers here, I doubt very many will ring a bell with me:
> > > >
> > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_laureates_in_Literature
> > > >
> > > > I see they started out with a French poet, who I am just now planning to investigate... anyone familiar with Sully Prudhomme, the 1901 winner?
> > > >
> > > > "in special recognition of his poetic composition, which gives evidence of lofty idealism, artistic perfection and a rare combination of the qualities of both heart and intellect"
> > > >
> > > > Or 1903 winner Bjørnstjerne Bjørnson, poet from Norway?
> > > >
> > > > "as a tribute to his noble, magnificent and versatile poetry, which has always been distinguished by both the freshness of its inspiration and the rare purity of its spirit"
> > > >
> > > > Frédéric Mistral, 1904 winner, another Frenchman:
> > > >
> > > > "in recognition of the fresh originality and true inspiration of his poetic production, which faithfully reflects the natural scenery and native spirit of his people, and, in addition, his significant work as a Provençal philologist"
> > > >
> > > > Well, that's enough to keep us in discussions for at least a week, I reckon.
> > > >
> > > > :)
> > >

> > > ====
> > >
> > > when I cracked forty I figured a man needs to read at least five hundred books in a lifetime....I've far past that mark and I'm not much older.
> > > I haven't been able to read since August of this year and I'm right in the middle of "The Goldfinch". I need to get back in the saddle.
> > > ==
> > > I noticed they didn't give out the Nobel during the war years.
> > >
> > > cheers
> > >
> > > ron
> >
> > At least during WWII, I see that they kept rolling through the first World War.
> >
> > I don't recognize a poet until 1907 with Rudyard Kipling.
>
> In 1924, one of the leading antisemites of all time, a novelist, got the lit award...Władysław Reymont. Very extreme writing.

I didn't know about that, or anything about this writer.

Thanks for the heads up.

[Will Dockery]

On Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 11:29:23 AM UTC-4, James Zadok wrote:

> Four years earlier, the Norwegian Knut Hamsun won the literature prize. He wanted the Jews out of Europe, strongly supported the Germans during World War II, and when Hitler died, praised him as "a warrior for mankind" and "a preacher of the gospel of justice for all nations."

Ugh, what a nest of rats Dylan has found himself stuck with... no wonder he tried to run when they came for him.

:)

[Will Dockery]

On Friday, June 16, 2017 at 12:42:00 PM UTC-4, Rachel wrote:
> On Thursday, June 15, 2017 at 11:40:02 PM UTC-7, Will Dockery wrote:
>
> > Reminds me of the trouble with Wagner, also (Anti-Semitism).
>
> My mom won't read Pound.

T.S. Eliot's not a whole lot better.

[Will Dockery]

khematite wrote:

> Nor e.e. cummings.

Jeeze, and with all these characters, we spend a week trashing Bukowski over on the poetry group?

[Michael Pendragon]

Eliot and cummings, while hardly favorites of mine, are at least readable.

[Will Dockery]

E. E. Cummings did have some moments...

Notably the scene in the Woody Allen movie voiced by Michael Caine, and here, I've just found Cummings himself reading the poem:

https://youtu.be/uWcuGo0rEFo

"...nobody, not even the rain, has such small hands."

[Will Dockery]

Bob Dylan on literary influences, including e.e. cummings:

"What I'd like to know is what do you think of your
blue eyed boy now, Mr. Death." T.S. Eliot, ee cummings.
It was sort of like that, and it kind of woke me up... it
was Jack Kerouac, Ginsberg, Corso, and Ferlinghetti-
Gasoline, Coney Island of the Mind...oh man, it was
wild-"I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed
by madness"-that said more to me than the stuff I'd been
raised on. It was outside, there was no formula...Anyway,
I got in on the tail end of it and it was magic...everyday
was like Sunday, it's like it was waiting for me, it left all
the rest of everything in the dust."
-Bob Dylan

[Peter J Ross]

In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 19 Jun 2017 19:41:26 -0700 (PDT),

They (and Pound) certainly are, but how would you know? You haven't
yet learned to read.


--
PJR :-)

τὸν οἰόμενον νόον ἔχειν ὁ νουθετέων ματαιοπονεῖ.
- Democritus

[Michael Pendragon]

True ... but I've long mastered the fine art of being-read-to.

[Peter J Ross]

In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Wed, 21 Jun 2017 17:03:26 -0700 (PDT),

Michael Pendragon wrote:

> On Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 7:05:02 PM UTC-4, Peter J Ross wrote:
>> In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 19 Jun 2017 19:41:26 -0700 (PDT),
>> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>>
>> > On Monday, June 19, 2017 at 5:27:29 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>> >> khematite wrote:
>> >> > On Friday, 16 June 2017 15:46:00 UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>> >> > > On Friday, June 16, 2017 at 12:42:00 PM UTC-4, Rachel wrote:
>> >> > > > On Thursday, June 15, 2017 at 11:40:02 PM UTC-7, Will Dockery wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > > > > Reminds me of the trouble with Wagner, also (Anti-Semitism).
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > My mom won't read Pound.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > T.S. Eliot's not a whole lot better.
>> >> >
>> >> > Nor e.e. cummings.
>> >>
>> >> Jeeze, and with all these characters, we spend a week trashing Bukowski over on the poetry group?
>> >>
>> >
>> > Eliot and cummings, while hardly favorites of mine, are at least readable.
>>
>> They (and Pound) certainly are, but how would you know? You haven't
>> yet learned to read.
>
> True ... but I've long mastered the fine art of being-read-to.

That would only work if you had any friends.

[Michael Pendragon]

I'm part of a family.

[Peter J Ross]

In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Wed, 21 Jun 2017 17:48:17 -0700 (PDT),

Mansons, eh?

[Michael Pendragon]

Addams.

[Will Dockery]

James Zadok wrote:
> On Wednesday, 14 June 2017 01:11:29 UTC-4, luisb...@aol.com wrote:
> > On Monday, June 12, 2017 at 9:35:50 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > On Monday, June 12, 2017 at 8:59:14 AM UTC-4, Grave Digger wrote:
> > > > On Monday, June 12, 2017 at 8:41:07 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>
> > > > > Obama got the "Peace prize" version, while Dylan was over in the "Literature" section, though. I have a list of the other 100 or so winners, and wonder about how they rate with the readers here, I doubt very many will ring a bell with me:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_laureates_in_Literature

> > > > > I see they started out with a French poet, who I am just now planning to investigate... anyone familiar with Sully Prudhomme, the 1901 winner?
> > > > >
> > > > > "in special recognition of his poetic composition, which gives evidence of lofty idealism, artistic perfection and a rare combination of the qualities of both heart and intellect"
> > > > >
> > > > > Or 1903 winner Bjørnstjerne Bjørnson, poet from Norway?
> > > > >
> > > > > "as a tribute to his noble, magnificent and versatile poetry, which has always been distinguished by both the freshness of its inspiration and the rare purity of its spirit"
> > > > >
> > > > > Frédéric Mistral, 1904 winner, another Frenchman:
> > > > >
> > > > > "in recognition of the fresh originality and true inspiration of his poetic production, which faithfully reflects the natural scenery and native spirit of his people, and, in addition, his significant work as a Provençal philologist"
> > > > >
> > > > > Well, that's enough to keep us in discussions for at least a week, I reckon.
>

> > > > ====
> > > >
> > > > when I cracked forty I figured a man needs to read at least five hundred books in a lifetime....I've far past that mark and I'm not much older.
> > > > I haven't been able to read since August of this year and I'm right in the middle of "The Goldfinch". I need to get back in the saddle.
> > > > ==
> > > > I noticed they didn't give out the Nobel during the war years.
> > > >
> > > > cheers
> > > >
> > > > ron
> > >
> > > At least during WWII, I see that they kept rolling through the first World War.
> > >
> > > I don't recognize a poet until 1907 with Rudyard Kipling.
> >
> > In 1924, one of the leading antisemites of all time, a novelist, got the lit award...Władysław Reymont. Very extreme writing.
>
> Four years earlier, the Norwegian Knut Hamsun won the literature prize. He wanted the Jews out of Europe, strongly supported the Germans during World War II, and when Hitler died, praised him as "a warrior for mankind" and "a preacher of the gospel of justice for all nations."

And they gave a Nobel Prize to such a fuckwit as this?

[George Dance]

He wouldn't have been supporting the Nazis in 1920.

[Will Dockery]

No, but Hamsun threw his complete support behind them 20 years later:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knut_Hamsun#World_War_II.2C_arrest_and_trial

During World War II, Hamsun put his support behind the German war effort. He courted and met with high-ranking Nazi officers, including Adolf Hitler. Nazi Minister of Propaganda Joseph Goebbels wrote a long and enthusiastic diary entry concerning a private meeting with Hamsun; according to Goebbels Hamsun's "faith in German victory is unshakable".[13] In 1940 Hamsun wrote that "the Germans are fighting for us".[14] After Hitler's death, he published a short obituary in which he described him as "a warrior for mankind" and "a preacher of the gospel of justice for all nations."

Yet, he was still honored for his writing, even by Jews:

Thomas Mann described him as a "descendant of Fyodor Dostoyevsky and Friedrich Nietzsche." Arthur Koestler was a fan of his love stories. H. G. Wells praised Markens Grøde (1917) for which Hamsun was awarded the Nobel Prize in Literature. Isaac Bashevis Singer was a fan of his modern subjectivism, use of flashbacks, his use of fragmentation, and his lyricism.[12] A character in Charles Bukowski's book Women referred to him as the greatest writer to have ever lived.

Isaac Bashevis Singer, who was Jewish, himself, called Hamsun "the father of the modern school of literature in his every aspect—his subjectiveness, his fragmentariness, his use of flashbacks, his lyricism. The whole modern school of fiction in the twentieth century stems from Hamsun"

So I reckon he gets a pass...

[Will Dockery]

On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 11:25:47 AM UTC-4, Just Walkin' wrote:
> On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 10:12:39 AM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > On Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 11:29:23 AM UTC-4, James Zadok wrote:

> > > On Wednesday, 14 June 2017 01:11:29 UTC-4, luisb... wrote:
> > > >
> > > > In 1924, one of the leading antisemites of all time, a novelist, got the lit award...Władysław Reymont. Very extreme writing.
> > >
> > > Four years earlier, the Norwegian Knut Hamsun won the literature prize. He wanted the Jews out of Europe, strongly supported the Germans during World War II, and when Hitler died, praised him as "a warrior for mankind" and "a preacher of the gospel of justice for all nations."
> >
> > And they gave a Nobel Prize to such a fuckwit as this?
>

> What did you expect, Will? This award is named after the man who made dynamite big business. It's not a peoples' award; it's an award among the elites. We've just been sold otherwise...

Yeah...

"Only a pawn in their game..."

[Will Dockery]

On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 6:15:06 PM UTC-4, George Dance wrote:

> On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 11:15:43 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> > James Zadok wrote:
>

> > > In 1920, the Norwegian Knut Hamsun won the literature prize. He wanted the Jews out of Europe, strongly supported the Germans during World War II, and when Hitler died, praised him as "a warrior for mankind" and "a preacher of the gospel of justice for all nations."

> >
> > And they gave a Nobel Prize to such a fuckwit as this?
>
> He wouldn't have been supporting the Nazis in 1920.

Hello George D... we can judge Knut Hamsun on just his poetry now, I finally managed to find one of Knut's poems:

http://johnirons.blogspot.com/2012/05/poem-by-norwegian-writer-knut-hamsun.html

Skerry

The boat’s now gliding
towards the skerry,
a sea-set island
its shores green banding.
Wild flowers grow here for
no eyes intended
stand unfamiliar
and watch me landing.

My heart becomes like
a fabled garden
with flowers the same as
the ones I’m greeting.
They talk together
and whisper strangely,
with nods and smiling
like children meeting.

Perhaps long since I
have here existed
as white spiraea
in first perfection.
I recognise now
that far-off fragrance,
and tremble slightly
in recollection.

I close my eyelids,
a distant memory
towards my shoulder
my head is drawing.
The night grows denser
about the island,
the sea alone roars –
Nirvana’s roaring.

-Knut Hamsun, 1904

[Will Dockery]

“The poet must always, in every instance, have the vibrant word... that by it's trenchancy can so wound my soul that it whimpers.... One must know and recognize not merely the direct but the secret power of the word; one must be able to give one's writing unexpected effects. It must have a hectic, anguished vehemence, so that it rushes past like a gust of air, and it must have a latent, roistering tenderness so that it creeps and steals one's mind; it must be able to ring out like a sea-shanty in a tremendous hour, in the time of the tempest, and it must be able to sigh like one who, in tearful mood, sobs in his inmost heart.” -Knut Hamsun

And... so it went.

[George Dance]

That was good. I expect the original is even better.

[Will Dockery]

Yes, I should have mentioned this is a translation, not Knut's original poem.

Looking now for something on 1924 winner Władysław Reymont, who I know zero about at this writing.

:)

[Jerry Kraus]

On Sunday, June 11, 2017 at 12:58:31 PM UTC-6, Will Dockery wrote:
> On Saturday, June 10, 2017 at 2:41:38 AM UTC-4, martyg...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> https://www.rockerteeshirts.com/blogs/rockers-blog/bob-dylan-and-leonard-cohen-both-deserve-a-nobel
>
> Leonard Cohen wrote some great poetry, prose and songs, true, and kept his integrity, focus and vision intact the entire time.

Ah, but Will, Leonard Cohen was Canadian, they'd just awarded the Nobel Prize in literature to a Canadian, Alice Munro, in 2013. Much too soon to give a Canadian another such award.

Also, you must understand the essentially political nature of ALL Nobel Prize awards. Even those in "hard science". Dylan got the award because he's a popular, well-known American, possibly also because he's Jewish, because the Swedes are absolutely terrified of Vladimir Putin these days and want to suck up to America and Israel, for protection from the Russian Bear. Same reason they set up Julian Assange in Stockholm a few years back, for the CIA.

How do I know, you ask? Well, I actually was a graduate student in experimental psychology in the laboratory of a future Nobel Prize winner -- Danny Kahneman, Nobel Prize, economics, 2002 -- for several years, before dropping out, at the University of British Columbia in the 1980's. Danny's wife Anne Triesman was my primary advisor Danny was on my committee. Danny is a "player". Most Nobel prize winners are, in all fields. Danny and his wife would train people in "fuzzifying" their research papers so no one could criticize them because they were too obscure, and would brag about how they "took care of any 'practical applications' for the research in the first sentence of their research papers". It was all a big joke to them, they knew they were useless, and didn't care, at all. Super-bureaucrats, basically, playing a game. I got sick of it. Danny's made a career of stating the obvious in elegant terms, as most psychologists do. He is now known as "The world's greatest living psychologist."

[Will Dockery]

Yes, perhaps as I quoted Dylan earlier, now more than ever, we are...

[Jerry Kraus]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Yes, perhaps as I quoted Dylan earlier, now more than ever, we are...
>

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

> "Only a pawn in their game."

Well, that's certainly the way Danny Kahneman and his ilk would like it, Will. His specialty is "Game Theory" after all!

Still, as I've indicated, I don't think there's really very much to what they're doing at all, other than pure disinformation. So, ultimately, the truth may win out. Hope so, anyway!

[Will Dockery]

Definitely see why Dylan didn't seem to be so thrilled to win the prize, also.

[Jerry Kraus]

Actually, I love Dylan's response to the Nobel award. "Uh...Gee...that's...uh, great...I guess..kind of, anyway."

He didn't need it, didn't want it, and knew he was basically being used by the Swedes, for their own political ends. Still, he didn't see any particular point to actually refusing the award, after all, why bother? He humored, and toyed with the Nobel Committee. Possibly the first one to ever actually do that, really. He played with the Swedes the way they play with world public opinion, using this particular award.

Who are the Swedes, and their committees, to judge what's best for the world, anyway?

[Jerry Kraus]

The thing you have to also understand, Will, is that the Nobel Prize is big, big business. It's instant credibility to what, otherwise, would simply be seen as silly nonsense.

By the way, here's Danny's wepage at Princeton -- the Princeton Institute of Advanced Study is largely just a retirement home for Nobel Prize Winners, largely paid for by the government, even though it's a private institution.

https://www.princeton.edu/~kahneman/

And, here's his email, if you, or anyone else wishes to contact him.


kahn...@princeton.edu

Of course, one of the big problems with the University of British Columbia, where I worked with him and his wife, is that the faculty is very heavily into illegal drug use. Danny and his wife seemed to mostly limit themselves to marijuana parties, but the biopsychology people -- the ones developing psychoactive drugs, for psychiatric use -- were into heroin, cocaine, LSD etc. I had to discourage professors from dealing drugs in my office, I refused to go to LSD parties with Danny's research assistants, and I turned down an offer from a biopsychology professor -- Dr. Jon Pinel -- to grow and sell marijuana for his friends.

Of course, drug abuse at the Princeton Institute of Advanced Study is nothing new. Carl Sagan died from it, after bragging about his use of "euphorics" in his own very well publicized books!

[Will Dockery]

Seems "Bob Dylan" is still playing /his/ game as well.

:)

[Jerry Kraus]

I've always liked Dylan, of course, everyone does, Will, but, my opinion of him shot up 1000% after his subtle, elegant dissing of the bureaucratic power brokers in Sweden. The truth will out!

[Will Dockery]

Agreed... these fellows expected, almost demanded, that he drop everything and shuffle over to there ceremony.

But he had shows booked, people who love him were waiting for him to come to their towns and sing.

As Dylan sang over 50 years ago:

"In ceremonies of the horsemen, even the pawn must hold a grudge."

:)

[Michael Pendragon]

Speak for yourself, Jerry. I'd rather listen to nails on a chalkboard.

[Brooke]

You've created a monster, Mr. Dragon. You were told he'd quote you to death. I'm sure you were charmed at first.

The Nobel was exposed to the world as the joke that it is when they awarded Obama his for doing absolutely nothing to deserve it. In the years since, he has proven to be anything but peaceful. What a sham.

[Will Dockery]

Well, supposedly Bob Dylan won the ward forhis writing, not his singing voice.

:)

[drive-by]

praise some lord.....His voice at this point is just an old rusty oil drum...but I give him a standing O just for standing........a familiar chunk will be missing, one day...

[Will Dockery]

Me and my pals just hope for one more album of new Bob Dylan thought dreams, enough covers for now.

:)

[Peter J Ross]

In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Wed, 21 Jun 2017 18:22:15 -0700 (PDT),

Do you dress up as Morticia in public, or only in the privacy of your
trailer?

Btw, "Addams" wasn't a great come-back after "Mansons". A more
experienced Usenet flame warrior would have let it pass - but you
can't let any of my posts pass, can you?

[Will Dockery]

Another first for Dylan, first rapper to win the Nobel:

There was one time in 1986 that Dylan really did do a rap song, I kid you not:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfi7ME_Y5Vs

"Bob Dylan Raps! thats right! this is from 1986 godfather of rap Kurtis Blow's album 'Kingdom Blow' It's the first song 'Street Rock' on the album and features Dylan. If you are just interested in hearing Dylan he is at the beginning and at 6:12 minutes..."

:)

[Michael Pendragon]

On Thursday, July 20, 2017 at 4:38:36 PM UTC-4, Peter J Ross wrote:
> In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Wed, 21 Jun 2017 18:22:15 -0700 (PDT),
> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>
> >> > I'm part of a family.
> >>
> >> Mansons, eh?
> >
> > Addams.
>
> Do you dress up as Morticia in public, or only in the privacy of your
> trailer?
>
> Btw, "Addams" wasn't a great come-back after "Mansons". A more
> experienced Usenet flame warrior would have let it pass - but you
> can't let any of my posts pass, can you?

It was less of a "comeback" than a correction.

As to your posts ... it's been awhile since my last Bozo bop bag session. I'm going to enjoy it while it lasts.

[Michael Pendragon]

The knitting needles are out and poised precariously above my ears.

[Will Dockery]

It /is/ pretty terrible... and that's from someone who actually is a Bob Dylan fan. The 1980s-1990s were not a good time for him.

[Peter J Ross]

In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Thu, 20 Jul 2017 13:56:10 -0700 (PDT),

Michael Pendragon wrote:

> On Thursday, July 20, 2017 at 4:38:36 PM UTC-4, Peter J Ross wrote:
>> In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Wed, 21 Jun 2017 18:22:15 -0700
>> (PDT), Michael Pendragon wrote:
>>
>> >> > I'm part of a family.
>> >>
>> >> Mansons, eh?
>> >
>> > Addams.
>>
>> Do you dress up as Morticia in public, or only in the privacy of
>> your trailer?
>>
>> Btw, "Addams" wasn't a great come-back after "Mansons". A more
>> experienced Usenet flame warrior would have let it pass - but you
>> can't let any of my posts pass, can you?
>
> It was less of a "comeback" than a correction.
>
> As to your posts ... it's been awhile since my last Bozo bop bag
> session. I'm going to enjoy it while it lasts.

Oh no! You're not going to start posting as your inner clown again,
are you, Coco?

[George Dance]

An apt metaphor, but it's very cliched; you can do far better. Bowie compared Dylan's voice to "sand and glue". Bassist Mitch Jayne earned his spot in musical history by describing it as "very much like a dog with its leg caught in barbed wire."

OTOH, a charitable guy like me would call it a voice one has to get used to. Cohen's another singer like that, as is Tom Waits. I don't mind either Dylan or Cohen, because I've listened to their stuff so long. OTOH, I can't stand Waits enough to ever have listened to a complete song of his, except for "Downtown Train" (and it was Rod Stewart who made me a fan of that one).

Fortunately, one doesn't have to listen to Dylan to appreciate his songs; they've been covered by everyone from Sinatra to Rage Against the Machine. If you wanted to get to know Dylan's songs, I'd urge you to make a 'mixtape' or Spotify of his songs covered by singers you already like.

Since Cohen's still the subject of this thread, I'll add that I'd give the same advice regarding him. In the past, I've recommended Jennifer Warnes's "Famous Blue Raincoat" as the best introductory album. Nowadays there are several good tribute albums, like "I'm your Fan", by various artists.

[Will Dockery]

Did you get a chance to check out my Cohen cover yet?

Bumping it to the top for you here... stay turned...

:)

[Will Dockery]

George Dance wrote:
> Will Dockery wrote:
>
> > I'm singing three Leonard Cohen songs in my show now... poetry. I says...
> >
> > :)
>
> Are you doing "Democracy"? I suggested that last year; now that the election's over, it may not be as big; but I think the Trump people will love it.

No just three of the early standards.

"Famous Blue Raincoat" I have online, I'll bump that one to the top for you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CymJp0QEFEU

"Famous Blue Raincoat" (Leonard Cohen Cover) Vocals - Will Dockery with the Shadowville All-Stars (full list of players coming soon). From a tribute show to Leonard Cohen.

:)

[George Dance]

Sorry, Will; I still have no sound.

[Peter J Ross]

In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Thu, 20 Jul 2017 17:03:43 -0700 (PDT),

George Dance wrote:

> Sorry, Will; I still have no sound.

One plagiarist clapping?

[Will Dockery]

Message me your snail mail address and I'll Sen you a current CD, George?

[Michael Pendragon]

My inner clowns are dark ... very, very dark ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WvKfqYMFOM&t=24s

[Will Dockery]

On Thursday, July 20, 2017 at 10:09:17 PM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
>
> My inner clowns are dark ... very, very dark ...
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WvKfqYMFOM&t=24s

You definitely live up to the "Creepy Mike" nickname, here.

:)

[Will Dockery]

George J. Dance wrote:
> Will Dockery wrote:
> > On Saturday, June 10, 2017 at 2:41:38 AM UTC-4, martyg...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > https://www.rockerteeshirts.com/blogs/rockers-blog/bob-dylan-and-leonard-cohen-both-deserve-a-nobel
> >
> > Leonard Cohen wrote some great poetry, prose and songs, true, and kept his integrity, focus and vision intact the entire time.
>

> I'd say Cohen was eligible, but it wasn't Dylan who messed up his chances; it was Alice Munro. Canada got a Nobel Prize; no other Canadians of this generation (Atwood, Birney, Ondaatje, or whoever) are going to get one. As in, the Olympics: countries aren't supposed to count at all, but they do...

Here's some Leonard Cohen news, placed here since this thread is on topic for the current state of the newsgroup:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/arts/theatre-and-performance/the-loneliness-of-the-long-distance-leonard-cohen-dancer/article37079383/

"Clara Furey, a young Montreal dancer and choreographer, is the only living artifact in the MAC's current Leonard Cohen exhibition, and one of the few artists in the show to make no use of Cohen's songs, recorded voice or image. Her points of contact are a little-known Cohen poem called When Even The and his years of silent Zen meditation.

"I've always been inspired by Leonard's precision with words, but he chose for big chunks of time not to speak," Furey said during an interview at her studio. "He knew the limits of language."

And that's the way it is...

[michaelmalef...@gmail.com]

Nice topical deflection.

Did you know that Stephan Pickering supports NAMBLA?

The following words are those of Stephan Pickering -- every last one of them:

[START QUOTE]

Shalom & Erev tov...you are predictably distorting, to enhance your inner fears.

I support NAMBLA's right to free speech; I support NAMBLA's members the right to be gay; I do not agree that, while feasible, sexuality between 'men' and 'boys' is necessarily conducive to viable relationships. It is in this area that I have longed believed caution is in order. Our culture already attempts to repress gay sexualities on several levels, arising from the equally relentless effort to repress womanists. I have never met a 'predator' who was a NAMBLA member, nor was it my position, as a talmid torah, to ask if an individual was. And, it is not my personal 'mession' to place myself as a Yehu'di in a false position of thinking I can offer 'advice' to a NAMBLA member about what is 'normal'.

Your ideas about NAMBLA are not shared by me, because you are actually exhibiting a fear of the GLBT communities.

Your # 5, from your facile list, is your karma, not mine. Just who do you propose will institute, explain, and abjudicate 'restrictions'? Are you stable enough to decide, within yourself, that you would be rational enough to be the Inquisitor Judge? Just what, in your rationality, is the 'age of consent'? Do natz'rim determine what Yehu'dim should believe re: sexuality? My grandmother was 14, my grandfather older -- was this paedophilia? And, please, don't introduce any antisemitic mantras about 'old world' paedophiles.

Your hypothesis that I discern a similarity between 'Victorian' 'morality codes', and the nationalsozialisten, is, in fact, quite valid. I do not believe an 'age of consent' is rational, nor is there any biological evidence to buttress a social construct. Your statement that I doggedly adhere to the idea 'that adults should decide which children are mature enough to enter into a sexual relationship with on a case by case basis' is inaccurate.

[END QUOTE]

Compare the above to the following passage from Wikipedia regarding NAMBLA:

[START QUOTE]

The North American Man/Boy Love Association (NAMBLA) is a pedophile and pederasty advocacy organization in the United States. It works to abolish age-of-consent laws criminalizing adult sexual involvement with minors[2][3] and campaigns for the release of men who have been jailed for sexual contacts with minors that did not involve coercion.[2][4]

[END QUOTE]

[Will Dockery]

On Tuesday, November 28, 2017 at 2:15:47 PM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 28, 2017 at 1:57:56 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
> > George J. Dance wrote:
> > > Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, June 10, 2017 at 2:41:38 AM UTC-4, martyg...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >
> > > > https://www.rockerteeshirts.com/blogs/rockers-blog/bob-dylan-and-leonard-cohen-both-deserve-a-nobel
> > > >
> > > > Leonard Cohen wrote some great poetry, prose and songs, true, and kept his integrity, focus and vision intact the entire time.
> > >
> > > I'd say Cohen was eligible, but it wasn't Dylan who messed up his chances; it was Alice Munro. Canada got a Nobel Prize; no other Canadians of this generation (Atwood, Birney, Ondaatje, or whoever) are going to get one. As in, the Olympics: countries aren't supposed to count at all, but they do...
> >
> > Here's some Leonard Cohen news, placed here since this thread is on topic for the current state of the newsgroup:
> >
> > https://www.theglobeandmail.com/arts/theatre-and-performance/the-loneliness-of-the-long-distance-leonard-cohen-dancer/article37079383/
> >
> > "Clara Furey, a young Montreal dancer and choreographer, is the only living artifact in the MAC's current Leonard Cohen exhibition, and one of the few artists in the show to make no use of Cohen's songs, recorded voice or image. Her points of contact are a little-known Cohen poem called When Even The and his years of silent Zen meditation.
> >
> > "I've always been inspired by Leonard's precision with words, but he chose for big chunks of time not to speak," Furey said during an interview at her studio. "He knew the limits of language."
> >
> > And that's the way it is...
>
> Nice

Of course it is, with poetry it doesn't get much better than Leonard Cohen.

:)

[michaelmalef...@gmail.com]

Cohen was a folk singer with pretensions.

And, as Cohen's Jewish ancestry relates to the Kabbalah Fractals Bullshit, did you know that Stephan Pickering supports NAMBLA?

[Will Dockery]

On Tuesday, November 28, 2017 at 2:24:55 PM UTC-5, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Cohen was a folk singer with pretensions.

A bit more than that:

--------------------------------------------------------------------

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Cohen#Poetry_and_novels

Poetry and novels[edit]
For six decades, Leonard Cohen revealed his soul to the world through poetry and song—his deep and timeless humanity touching our very core. Simply brilliant. His music and words will resonate forever.
Rock & Roll Hall of Fame, 2008[14]
In 1951 Cohen enrolled at McGill University, where he became president of the McGill Debating Union and won the Chester MacNaghten Literary Competition for the poems "Sparrows" and "Thoughts of a Landsman".[15] Cohen published his first poems in March 1954 in the magazine CIV/n. The issue also included poems by Cohen's poet–professors (who were also on the editorial board), Irving Layton and Louis Dudek.[15] Cohen graduated from McGill the following year with a B.A. degree.[9] His literary influences during this time included William Butler Yeats, Irving Layton (who taught political science at McGill and became both Cohen's mentor and friend),[9] Walt Whitman, Federico García Lorca, and Henry Miller.[16] His first published book of poetry, Let Us Compare Mythologies (1956), was published by Dudek as the first book in the McGill Poetry Series the year after Cohen's graduation. The book contained poems written largely when Cohen was between the ages of 15 and 20, and Cohen dedicated the book to his late father.[9] The well-known Canadian literary critic Northrop Frye wrote a review of the book in which he gave Cohen "restrained praise".[9]
After completing his undergraduate degree, Cohen spent a term in the McGill Faculty of Law and then a year (1956–57) at the Columbia University School of General Studies. Cohen described his graduate school experience as "passion without flesh, love without climax".[17] Consequently, Cohen left New York and returned to Montreal in 1957, working various odd jobs and focusing on the writing of fiction and poetry, including the poems for his next book, The Spice-Box of Earth (1961), which was the first book that Cohen published through the Canadian publishing company McClelland & Stewart. His father's will provided him with a modest trust income, sufficient to allow him to pursue his literary ambitions for the time, and The Spice-Box of Earth was successful in helping to expand the audience for Cohen's poetry, helping him reach out to the poetry scene in Canada, outside the confines of McGill University. The book also helped Cohen gain critical recognition as an important new voice in Canadian poetry. One of Cohen's biographers, Ira Nadel, stated that "reaction to the finished book was enthusiastic and admiring. . . . The critic Robert Weaver found it powerful and declared that Cohen was 'probably the best young poet in English Canada right now.'"[9]
Cohen continued to write poetry and fiction throughout much of the 1960s and preferred to live in quasi-reclusive circumstances after he bought a house on Hydra, a Greek island in the Saronic Gulf. While living and writing on Hydra, Cohen published the poetry collection Flowers for Hitler (1964), and the novels The Favourite Game (1963) and Beautiful Losers (1966). His novel The Favourite Game was an autobiographical bildungsroman about a young man who discovers his identity through writing. Beautiful Losers received a good deal of attention from the Canadian press and stirred up controversy because of a number of sexually graphic passages.[9] In 1966 Cohen also published Parasites of Heaven, a book of poems. Both Beautiful Losers and Parasites of Heaven received mixed reviews and sold few copies.[9]
In 1966 CBC TV producer Andrew Simon produced a local Montreal current affairs program, Seven on Six, and offered Cohen a position as host. "I decided I'm going to be a songwriter. I want to write songs," Simon recalled Cohen telling him.[18]
Subsequently, Cohen published less, with major gaps, concentrating more on recording songs. In 1978 he published his first book of poetry in many years, Death of a Lady's Man (not to be confused with the album he released the previous year with the similar title, Death of a Ladies' Man). It was not until 1984 that Cohen published his next book of poems, Book of Mercy, which won him the Canadian Authors Association Literary Award for Poetry. The book contains 50 prose-poems, influenced by the Hebrew Bible and Zen writings. Cohen himself referred to the pieces as "prayers".[19] In 1993 Cohen published Stranger Music: Selected Poems and Songs, and in 2006, after 10 years of delays, additions, and rewritings, Book of Longing. The Book of Longing is dedicated to the poet Irving Layton. Also, during the late 1990s and 2000s, many of Cohen's new poems and lyrics were first published on the fan website The Leonard Cohen Files, including the original version of the poem "A Thousand Kisses Deep" (which Cohen later adapted for a song).[20][21]
Cohen's writing process, as he told an interviewer in 1998, was "like a bear stumbling into a beehive or a honey cache: I'm stumbling right into it and getting stuck, and it's delicious and it's horrible and I'm in it and it's not very graceful and it's very awkward and it's very painful and yet there's something inevitable about it."[22]
In 2011 Cohen was awarded the Prince of Asturias Award for literature.

-------------------------------------------------------------

And, that's the way it is.

[Will Dockery]

On Tuesday, November 28, 2017 at 2:34:55 PM UTC-5, hierony...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Wow, that's a big cut and paste. You must really be struggling.

Struggling with what?

[Will Dockery]

On Tuesday, November 28, 2017 at 2:42:39 PM UTC-5, hierony...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> You must really be struggling with relevance,
> and having something pertinent to say.

Not really, just posted some documentation that Leonard Cohen was a poet for years before becoming a folk singer.

Try to keep up, Hi.

:)

[Rachel]

i thought that said nice topical defecation

[Will Dockery]

No, Corey... poetry is still relevant here.

😀

[Will Dockery]

The topic is Leonard Cohen's poetry.

My post could not have been more relevant.

😀

[michaelmalef...@gmail.com]

Gee, Will. You've mastered the art of Cut & Paste with your newfangled "Gizmo" thingie.

You're becoming a regular Tech Wiz!

[Stephan Pickering]

On Sunday, June 11, 2017 at 11:58:31 AM UTC-7, Will Dockery wrote:


>
> Leonard Cohen wrote some great poetry, prose and songs, true, and kept his integrity, focus and vision intact the entire time.

Shalom & Boker tov, Will...his forthcoming book, The Flame, is quite stunning, with more nuances than the various fascist disguises trolls are using here.
Kol tuv / be well...Stephan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
STEPHAN PICKERING / חפץ ח"ם בן אברהם
Torah אלילה Yehu'di Apikores / Philologia Kabbalistica Speculativa Researcher
לחיות זמן רב ולשגשג...לעולם לא עוד
THE KABBALAH FRACTALS PROJECT

[Will Dockery]

It does look like a great one, Stephan:

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/leonard-cohens-final-poetry-book-gets-release-date-w507601

Leonard Cohen's Final Poetry Book Gets Release Date

'The Flame' will include intimate, previously unpublished notebook sections, illustrations, prose pieces

The collection will include mostly new material, according to the publisher, Canongate. Cohen's former manager and the trustee of his estate, Robert Kory, said in a statement that completing The Flame was one of the artist's main objectives prior to his death. He culled material from unpublished poems, selections from his notebooks that commented on "the flame and how our culture threatened its extinction," said Kory.

Cohen pursued a career as a poet and novelist before turning to music. His first book, Let Us Compare Mythologies, came out in 1956, followed by The Spice-Box of Earth (1961) and Flowers for Hitler (1964). His first album as a singer-songwriter came out in 1967, when he was in his early thirties.

In addition to prose pieces, illustrations and intimate sections of his notebooks, The Flame will include the full lyrics of his three final albums and lyrics he wrote for Blue Art, by frequent collaborator, Anjani, Canongate said.

[Will Dockery]

You're pretty good at it yourself, Pendragon, since you've copy and pasted Pickering about 900 times today.

:)

[Will Dockery]

No, Corey, but I'll hitting the stage to sing a few originals soon, with the band.

A shame you'd lack the guts to join me if you were here, eh?

😀

[Will Dockery]

Pendragon wrote in message
news:69fc8ee2-c148-44a2...@googlegroups.com...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not really, since the topic is Leonard Cohen and it remains on that topic.

[Will Dockery]

Corey wrote in message
news:339a1c8c-ec74-4d97...@googlegroups.com...
>
> Exactly, nothing relevant.

Almost none of your posts are, true.

[Will Dockery]

George J. Dance wrote:
> > Will Dockery wrote:
> > > On Saturday, June 10, 2017 at 2:41:38 AM UTC-4, martyg...@gmail.com
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > https://www.rockerteeshirts.com/blogs/rockers-blog/bob-dylan-and-leonard-cohen-both-deserve-a-nobel
> > >
> > > Leonard Cohen wrote some great poetry, prose and songs, true, and kept
> > > his integrity, focus and vision intact the entire time.
> >
> > I'd say Cohen was eligible, but it wasn't Dylan who messed up his
> > chances; it was Alice Munro. Canada got a Nobel Prize; no other
> > Canadians of this generation (Atwood, Birney, Ondaatje, or whoever) are
> > going to get one. As in, the Olympics: countries aren't supposed to
> > count at all, but they do...
>
> Here's some Leonard Cohen news, placed here since this thread is on topic
> for the current state of the newsgroup:
>
> https://www.theglobeandmail.com/arts/theatre-and-performance/the-loneliness-of-the-long-distance-leonard-cohen-dancer/article37079383/
>
> "Clara Furey, a young Montreal dancer and choreographer, is the only
> living artifact in the MAC's current Leonard Cohen exhibition, and one of
> the few artists in the show to make no use of Cohen's songs, recorded
> voice or image. Her points of contact are a little-known Cohen poem called
> When Even The and his years of silent Zen meditation.
>
> "I've always been inspired by Leonard's precision with words, but he chose
> for big chunks of time not to speak," Furey said during an interview at
> her studio. "He knew the limits of language."

I just found LC's "Old Ideas" CD last night while in Atlanta... brilliant
stuff heard on the long ride home...

[Will Dockery]

George J. Dance wrote:
>> > Will Dockery wrote:
> > >> martyg...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > > https://www.rockerteeshirts.com/blogs/rockers-blog/bob-dylan-and-leonard-cohen-both-deserve-a-nobel
> > >
> > > Leonard Cohen wrote some great poetry, prose and songs, true, and kept
> > > his integrity, focus and vision intact the entire time.

I'm listening to one of his last collections of songs today, "Old Ideas",
and I swer his writing and singing was as good or even better sometimes at
85 years old as he was as a teenager, at the start of his poetry game.

[Will Dockery]

Corey wrote in message
news:fc770744-d6ea-4c8b...@googlegroups.com...

>
> Wow, that's a big

Urm, thanks, I guess...

[Will Dockery]

Corey wrote in message
news:000f03ba-385d-436a...@googlegroups.com...
>
> You must really be

Enjoying the Leonard Cohen CD I bought last night, "Old Ideas"?

Yes, it sounds great, I have it playing now, as I type.

[Will Dockery]

Pendragon wrote in message
news:69fc8ee2-c148-44a2...@googlegroups.com...

> Will Dockery wrote:
> > On Saturday, June 10, 2017 at 2:41:38 AM UTC-4, martyg...@gmail.com

> > wrote:
> >
> > > https://www.rockerteeshirts.com/blogs/rockers-blog/bob-dylan-and-leonard-cohen-both-deserve-a-nobel
> > >
> > > Leonard Cohen wrote some great poetry, prose and songs, true, and kept
> > > his integrity, focus and vision intact the entire time.
> >

> > I'd say Cohen was eligible, but it wasn't Dylan who messed up his
> > chances; it was Alice Munro. Canada got a Nobel Prize; no other
> > Canadians of this generation (Atwood, Birney, Ondaatje, or whoever) are
> > going to get one. As in, the Olympics: countries aren't supposed to
> > count at all, but they do...
>
> Here's some Leonard Cohen news, placed here since this thread is on topic
> for the current state of the newsgroup:
>
> https://www.theglobeandmail.com/arts/theatre-and-performance/the-loneliness-of-the-long-distance-leonard-cohen-dancer/article37079383/
>
> "Clara Furey, a young Montreal dancer and choreographer, is the only
> living artifact in the MAC's current Leonard Cohen exhibition, and one of
> the few artists in the show to make no use of Cohen's songs, recorded
> voice or image. Her points of contact are a little-known Cohen poem called
> When Even The and his years of silent Zen meditation.
>
> "I've always been inspired by Leonard's precision with words, but he chose
> for big chunks of time not to speak," Furey said during an interview at
> her studio. "He knew the limits of language."
>
>> And that's the way it is...
>

> Nice

For once we agree... heh.

[Will Dockery]

Corey wrote in message
news:fc770744-d6ea-4c8b...@googlegroups.com...
>
> Wow

Yay, even.

;)

[Rachel]

why are we talking about the world's foremost singer/songwriter/nobel prize winner/poet in this poetry group...oh, okay, never mind, i get it now.

[Will Dockery]

Right on, Rachel, right on.

:)