Science, Secrecy, and Ufology//Long-Term Intelligence Community Ties Exposed!!
Sir Arthur C. B. Wholeflaffers A.S.A.
Secrecy permeates the UFO field. What does this mean for Ufology as a science?
Answer: the field cannot really be handled scientifically within the public
domain. The great model is the Manhattan Project. When a project is undertaken
at highly classified levels, you will find nothing of value about it within the
mainstream. This was true during the development of the atomic bomb in the
1940s; it is true regarding the UFO.
Missing the Obvious
Some thing are so obvious that they are invisible.
Segments of the intelligence community have been intensely interested in UFOs
since the problem emerged after World War Two. Moreover, they have monitored and
infiltrated the UFO field. Conversely, the "mainstream" (as opposed to
"classified") scientific community has ignored UFOs altogether. Ask yourself a
simple question: why this discrepancy?
What passes for Ufology has spun its wheels for fifty years. Not only have even
its most important researchers been unable to force recognition of the problem
by official powers (not very surprising, after all), but some of these same
researchers have not even taken a definite stand on what UFOs might represent.
That is, they have been working without a hypothesis (!) and so in many cases
have merely piled up sighting after sighting for years and years, and then
expected this pile of "evidence" to do the trick. But in any intellectual
endeavor, piling up evidence is never enough. The researcher has to organize and
analyze the evidence through hypothesis or supposition. Without this effort,
there is no research, only what Gore Vidal calls "scholarly squirreling" of data
in a hole in a hollow tree. What can we say about such researchers, some of whom
having been in the field for decades, or even in some cases, generations? What
have they been doing?
A young innocent who wants to learn more about this topic - a subject of the
utmost seriousness and importance - can easily become bewildered by the
confusion. Should one side with Klass, Shaeffer, and Korff, or Hynek, Ruppelt,
and Keyhoe, or Friedman, or Randall? Does one follow the line of the
conservative J. Allen Hynek Center of UFO Studies (CUFOS), the paranormal
leanings of MUFON, or the coverup themes of UFO Magazine? On the Internet,
should one haunt the tepid world of listserves like Project 1947 or UFO Updates,
or dive right into John Greenwald's Black Vault?
Four centuries ago, Rene Descartes established a very simple principle of
knowledge: one must create a strong skeleton -that is, a foundation of
unquestionable facts - and build an edifice upon it.
So let us be Cartesian, and review the obvious.
Secrecy and the National Security Crowd
In 1946, a year before the great deluge of reports here in the states, Americans
monitored "ghost rockets" over Europe. Two prominent American generals conferred
with the Swedes, and censorship over the Swedish press followed. The Greek Army
also investigated, according to Dr. Paul Santorini, a key scientist in the
development of the atomic bomb. The Greeks concluded the objects were not
Soviet, nor were they missiles. The American military then pressured them into
silence.
In 1947, UFOs appeared over American skies in large numbers. Some incidents were
quite serious, such as the repeated violation of air space over the Oak Ridge
Nuclear Facility. Oak Ridge housed some of the most sophisticated technology in
the world and was highly classified: one did not simply fly over there. Yet Army
Intelligence and the FBI monitored dozens of intrusions over Oak Ridge well into
the 1950s. Similar violations occurred over sensitive places in LosAlamos,
Hanford, and many military bases. All of this was classified, of course.
Americans knew nothing about them at the time.
In a classified memo, General Nathan Twining wrote of the possibility - based on
the careful evaluation of military personnel - that "some of the objects are
controlled." Controlled by whom was the $64,000 question, and America's national
security establishment set out to answer it, far removed from the prying eyes of
the public. In 1949, an FBI memo stated that: "Army intelligence has recently
said that the matter of 'unidentified aircraft' or 'unidentified aerial
phenomena' ... is considered top secret by intelligence officers of both the
Army and the Air Forces."
In 1950, Robert Sarbacher, a physicist with the DOD Research & Development
Board, privately told Canadian official Wilbert Smith that UFOs were "the most
highly classified subject in the U.S. government."
After an extraordinary UFO encounter near Fort Monmouth, New Jersey in 1951, Air
Force officer Edward Ruppelt attended a two-hour meeting chaired by General
Charles Cabell, the Director of Air Force Intelligence (and later Deputy CIA
Director). The meeting was recorded, but the tape "was so hot that it was later
destroyed. . . . to be conservative, it didn't exactly follow the tone of the
official Air Force releases." The CIA, meanwhile, had monitored the problem
since at least 1948. After the UFO wave of 1952, the Agency sponsored the
Robertson Panel, which convened in January 1953 - the final weekend of the
Truman presidency. The panel debunked UFOs, and its recommendations resulted in
the gutting of Project Blue Book (already a public relations burden) and
heightened surveillance of civilian UFO organizations.
Clearly, this was an issue considered to be of the utmost seriousness. As a
result, it was not a topic ordinary citizens could simply waltz into and get
easy answers. Observe what happened to the most dangerous of all civilian
organizations: the National Investigative Committee on Aerial Phenomena (NICAP).
Founded in 1956 with the goal of ending UFO secrecy, it was quickly and secretly
infiltrated by "ex-CIA" officers involved in CIA psychological warfare
operations. The most important of them, Colonel Joseph Bryan, was the key player
in the ouster of Director Donald Keyhoe in 1969. A succession of CIA men then
ran NICAP into the ground. Needless to say, no one outside the Agency knew of
their CIA connections.
One might complain this was all a long time ago. Does the military still take
UFOs seriously? Does the intelligence community still infiltrate UFO
organizations? After all, if UFOs are still important, then intelligence
operatives would presumably still need to monitor and influence the key
organizations. Is there any reason to believe this is so? In a word, yes. The
military still encounters UFOs, as many reports continue to prove. Moreover,
secrecy orders about UFOs remain in effect. In 1975, the late Senator Barry
Goldwater stated that UFOs were still classified "above Top Secret." As one of
my Navy acquaintances recently said to me: "If I were to tell you what I knew
about that subject, I would probably go to prison."
In the mid-1980s, UFO researcher William Moore admitted to working covertly with
the intelligence world, to the shock and dismay of his colleagues. But stuff
like this is surely the tip of a large iceberg. Ufology is dominated by men and
women connected to the world of intelligence, usually through prior experience
in the military or CIA. Why is this so? What does it mean to Ufology that this
is the case? It is a question I will return to - more than once, I suspect - in
future articles.
Science
Throughout history, people have used outdated concepts to think about the world,
especially during periods of rapid change. It's unavoidable. We remain wedded to
the concepts we learned in our youth, while reality races ahead. Observe our
cultural attitudes toward science. Science, we were taught, is a bastion, indeed
the foundation, of intellectual freedom in the world. It is an independent
search for truth, and the destroyer of social and religious myths.
How independent is science? In whose interest is it practiced today? This is no
idle question, for gone are the days of scientists following their intellectual
passions in a search for truth. Earlier this year, James Lovelock, a pioneer in
environmental science now in his eighties, had this to say: Nearly all
scientists are employed by some large organization, such as a governmental
department, a university, or a multinational company. Only rarely are they free
to express their science as a personal view. They may think that they are free,
but in reality they are, nearly all of them, employees; they have traded freedom
of thought for good working conditions, a steady income, tenure, and a pension.
Science is an expensive business, and you need sponsorship. I laughed out loud
when a sincere and interested reader of my book asked me who sponsored my
research. But, he is a scientist, for whom such a thing is absolutely necessary.
Reflect on the following:
1. Since the Second World War, the military has been by far the biggest sponsor
of scientific work.
2. The military and intelligence community has exhibited extreme levels of
interest in the UFO phenomenon, and high levels of classification have enveloped
the subject.
3. It would seem logical that the military has sponsored classified - that is,
secret - scientific work on this problem for many years.
4. In public, however, mainstream scientists offer nothing more than ridicule or
scorn upon the topic of UFOs.
Like any other segment of our civilization, scientists follow the money. If the
cash is there, so are they; if not, forget about it. If, as I believe, the vast
sponsorship of UFO research is classified, we will not hear positive statements
about the subject from the mainstream. Moreover, the extreme specialization of
science ensures that mavericks do not stray into the uncharted seas of UFO
research. The result is widespread ignorance by scientists of even the basics of
the UFO phenomenon. At least, this is so within the non-classified, mainstream
areas of research. In the classified world, we can only surmise, but we can do
so based on some facts.
We know without question that within the first few years of the appearance of
UFOs, many top-flight scientists became involved in some way with this
phenomenon - in every case at the classified level. By no means exhaustive, here
are some of the more noteworthies: Lloyd Berkner, Edward Teller, Detlev Bronk,
Vannevar Bush, David Sarnoff, Thornton Page, H. P. Robertson, Allen Hynek, and
Lincoln La Paz. In the case of Bush and Bronk, the connection has not been
proven to the satisfaction of some skeptics, but even in their case, the
evidence remains strong. For the rest, the case is open-and-shut. These men were
some of the elite power scientists in the world, and intimately connected with
the American defense establishment. And yet, we find them looking at UFO
reports. Of course, let us not forget Harvard astronomer and UFO debunker
extraordinaire, Donald Menzel, who, unbeknownst to the world, was deeply
involved with the American intelligence community, in particular the
super-secret National Security Agency.
One supposes that we shall have to wait another few decades to learn about our
contemporaries - in other words, long after the issue becomes moot. Such
secrecy, we realize, is not unique to UFOs. It is standard operating procedure.
We learn the truth after it becomes irrelevant.
The Great Secrecy Model
As was stated above, when a project is undertaken at highly classified levels,
you will find nothing of value about it within the mainstream. The primordial
example is the Manhattan Project. Here was an undertaking of such magnitude that
secrecy was of paramount importance. How to design and build an atomic bomb
without the enemy knowing? It is, of course, a multifarious question. One of the
answers, however, was to hide the knowledge from Congress itself - despite the
fact that it involved unprecedented outlays of money. Amazingly, the plan
succeeded.
In fact, when scientists detonated a nuclear bomb at Los Alamos on July 16,
1945, the most spectacular and ominous event in the history of science, no one
outside that small classified circle knew a thing. Consider the implications.
The work was done in a secrecy so profound that the mainstream scientific
literature had nothing of import to say about nuclear technology. The
information was too sensitive to discuss openly.
Significantly, though the Manhattan Project remained secret from the public, it
was not secret from the Soviets, who had penetrated the American defense and
scientific establishment, and used data from the project to build an atomic bomb
years ahead of schedule. This pattern, in fact, recurred throughout the Cold
War: more often than not, the American public was kept in the dark about black
projects more successfully than were the Soviet authorities. Many times, it was
they and not the Soviets who were the true target of secrecy - for instance, in
such cases as the U-2 flyovers or mind control experiments.
Thus, the Manhattan Project possesses staggering historical importance for so
many reasons, not the least of which is that it has served as a model ever since
for conducting expensive and covert operations. Hiding the money, keeping the
real talk classified, and steering the public discussion- all of these were
successfully tackled by the national security world of the 1940s. If it's
important, it's probably secret. This was true during the development of the
atomic bomb in the 1940s; it is almost certainly true regarding the UFO.
Implications
Those of us without a "need to know" about UFOs can still learn a few things.
Enough information exists within the public realm that we can put many of the
pieces together. It is, frankly, what I have tried to do in my recent study.
Do the math. For more than fifty years, millions of people have experienced a
global phenomenon from agencies unknown, possessing what appears to be fantastic
technology. We have on record hundreds of military UFO encounters and reports,
with undoubted interest and infiltration by the intelligence world. Compound
this with disturbingly strong claims of abduction (and even worse) on the part
of these others, and you have powerful reasons for abject silence on the part of
our erstwhile leaders. The math is not higher calculus. No, it is simple
addition, and when you add it up the conclusion is forced: this is a
fundamentally covert event of awesome magnitude.
But we should not fool ourselves into thinking that we can "get to the bottom"
of this. That is, as mere citizens of what some would call an oligarchic empire
that masquerades as a democracy, we are unlikely to get official confirmation
regarding something as important as an alien presence. And even if we did get
such "confirmation," could we truly depend on the accuracy and completeness of
the information? I think you know the answer.
Knowledge may give us an edge in some way. Or, our situation may more closely
match the American natives of 500 years ago. Either way, we on the outside are
on our own where this phenomenon is concerned, and it behooves us to become as
educated about it as we can. Otherwise, we experience our fate - for good or ill
- in the dark.
---------------------
Mark Shippey
> Science, Secrecy, and Ufology By Richard M. Dolan
> Secrecy permeates the UFO field. What does this mean for Ufology as a science?
> Answer: the field cannot really be handled scientifically within the public
> domain. The great model is the Manhattan Project. When a project is undertaken
> at highly classified levels, you will find nothing of value about it within
> the mainstream.
Here we go again! The Real Truth about UFOlogy is out there, but
it is hidden by The Coverup, and this is why of course you don't have
even ONE piece of verifiable evidence after all these decades! And
Wholeflaffer, if there is "nothing of value" in the mainstream, does
this make your posts worthless crap?
------------------------------------
Bumper sticker seen on an alien UFO -
"My hybrid son is an Honor Student at Area 51"
The Wholeflaffer Happening
>
>The Wholeflaffer Thing posted:
>> Science, Secrecy, and Ufology By Richard M. Dolan
>
>> Secrecy permeates the UFO field. What does this mean for Ufology as a science?
>> Answer: the field cannot really be handled scientifically within the public
>> domain. The great model is the Manhattan Project. When a project is undertaken
>> at highly classified levels, you will find nothing of value about it within
>> the mainstream.
>
>
> Here we go again! The Real Truth about UFOlogy is out there, but
>it is hidden by The Coverup, and this is why of course you don't have
MAYNARD: One might ask, with a career that includes a background in
counterintelligence for both military purposes and drug trafficking, 'how did
you become involved in UFOs?'
My involvement was probably more happenstance than anything else. I became
involved while overseas in Germany, Turkey and Korea. These areas were not noted
for a lot of UFO activity. I was primarily afforded the opportunity to
investigate peripherally a few incidents and implement disinformation or
misinformation programs to divert attention away from the military and toward
the paranormal and/or UFO [followers] in those areas. However, a point I never
revealed to the military, was that my grandmother brought me up believing that
UFOs existed.
Regardless of that point, I was still a staunch conservative (politically) and
placed my military duties ahead of my beliefs. I had a 'country, duty, and
honor'-type attitude. I believed that because of my dedication, and what
appeared to be naivety on my part, my military superiors did not question my
actions when it came to debunking UFO sightings. However, I became very
intrigued as to why UFOs were not to become public knowledge and, that they
(the government) preferred that any UFO information for public consumption stay
in the realm of the paranormal and/or the unreliable UFO resources.
It took me several years to figure out that this blatant disregard for public
opinion was a plan designed to keep and maintain the pressure of proof on
certain elements of our society.
The plan was basically to place the burden of proof on the UFO researchers and
to steer the public away from the military organizations that were directly
involved in UFO research. In this plan I deduced that the military was using the
media to keep these UFO researchers from making too much of the issue by having
the media brand them as kooks, weird, paranoid and unbelievable; better yet, by
having people who go around chasing after shadows in a belief that UFOs are real
and the government is hiding something.
To date, this plan has worked well above average, and the general public still
has an opinion that follows what ever the media tells them.
David Patrick
So, can I take it from this new thread that you've started that you've
abandoned the one with the air-traffic controller story in it?
Why won't you tell us who this air-traffic controller was? Why won't you
explain how you got his story?
David Patrick
Mark Shippey
(more worthless crap)
But you forgot to answer the question......
If there is "nothing of value" in the mainstream about UFOs,
as your post stated: Then is the stuff you post worthless
crap and of no value at all?
Except for some good laughs of course.
David Patrick
On Fri, 12 Apr 2002, The Wholeflaffer Happening wrote:
> The plan was basically to place the burden of proof on the UFO researchers and
> to steer the public away from the military organizations that were directly
> involved in UFO research.
Why would he even have to bother doing that? The burden of proof is
_always_ on the person making the claim.
> In this plan I deduced that the military was using the
> media to keep these UFO researchers from making too much of the issue
> by having the media brand them as kooks, weird, paranoid and
> unbelievable; better yet, by having people who go around chasing after
> shadows in a belief that UFOs are real and the government is hiding
> something.
Is he sugesting that UFOs aren't alien spacecraft, but just a way of
distracting the public from the things the government is doing?
> To date, this plan has worked well above average, and the general
> public still has an opinion that follows what ever the media tells them.
Of course, for a conspiracy like this to work it would have to be global
and have the co-operation of every major country on Earth. And this
co-operation would have to have started at the height of the cold war when
the two superpowers were at one point just an inch from global armageddon.
And they have to been able to maintain it for half a century.
Seems rather unlikely doesn't it?
David Patrick
The Wholeflaffer Happening!!
says...
>
>
>So, can I take it from this new thread that you've started that you've
>abandoned the one with the air-traffic controller story in it?
I've already called your bluff, Patrick, you've already admitted
that you are (1) a troll; (2) have no knowledge of the
alien presence; (3) get your information from TeeVee;
(4) have interviewed "Zero" witnesses. Shouldn't
you be watching your TeeVee? Ha-ha, another
debunker exposed!!!
- - - -
Sir Arthur C. B. Wholeflaffers A.S.A.
>
> But you forgot to answer the question......
The debunker/troll never asks a worthwhile
question:
GEORGE LAZAR (LIVE): So the next time you go to a
parade and see Shriner's riding around in those
little cars with the funny hats keep this in mind.
The really cool thing to say in ufological circles
these days is that the whole Area 51-Bob Lazar
story is disinformation. Lazar is an agent of
disinformation. The story is pure theatre. A show,
a farce, put on for some nefarious, but not so
clear purpose, by the bad guys. I don't know
exactly how this conclusion was reached. I
certainly don't remember getting a vote on it. I
don't remember hearing anything about the
government breaking down to admit that it made the
whole thing up. So it would seem that this
conclusion that it's all disinformation is based
more on supposition and conjecture and gut feeling
and personal suspicions than on anything else.
The story about alien technology in Nevada did not
begin with Bob Lazar. Nor does it end with him.
Similar information was floating around in Nevada
before Bob Lazar was even born. The Area 51 story,
I think, shares a common ancestry with one of the
best documented and most widely accepted premises
in all of ufology, namely the premise that alien
hardware has been recovered or otherwise acquired
by the U.S. government and/or military. Friedman
and Berliner, Bill Moore, Schmidt and Randall, and
others have impressively documented the story of a
recovered saucer in New Mexico. Len Stringfield and
others have accumulated considerable information
about other alleged crash sites. You heard earlier
from Dennis Stacey about some of that information.
UFO files buldge with testimony from former
military men who say they've seen disks and/or
other alien material, perhaps even alien bodies at
various military facilities around the country. At
a minimum we have volumes of testimonial or
circumstantial evidence to suggest that someone
somewhere has acquired alien hardware. So where is
it?
The Area 51 investigation seeks to answer that
question. I submit to you that if the government or
military really did get their hands on alien
vehicles or technology or even bodies, that
Nevada's Area 51 would be at, or near the top, of
any list as a storage and testing location. For 38
years Area 51/Groom Lake has been the location of
choice for all manner of Black Projects: the U2,
the SR-71, the Stealth Fighter, the Stealth Bomber,
Starwars, NASA training, special commando training
and a host of other secret stuff that the public
has never heard about.
By now the various nicknames for the base are
familiar to many of us: Groom Lake, Dreamland,
Watertown Strip, The Ranch, The Funny Farm, and
Area 51. I'm told the place now goes by a new
still-classified name these days because too many
people knew about the old one. Nellis pilots who
fly near the area refer to it simply as "The Box,"
named for its highly restricted airspace around
that facility. It is an isolated, sparsely
populated region, ringed by mountains and desert
and a radioactive hellhole known as the Nevada Test
Site. It's a good spot for secret stuff, or at
least it was.
In 1984 the Air Force illegally ceased 89,000 acres
of land around Groom Lake to use as a further
buffer between the public and black projects. It
has since resorted to all manner of security
measures there including audio and video
surveillance gear, motion detectors, ammonia
detectors, choppers, fighters, missiles, and at
least three separate and distinct security forces
to keep people out. Signs around the facility now
warn that the use of deadly force there is
authorized and the newest version of these signs,
which keep getting further and further out,
extended onto public land, declare it is not only
illegal to photograph the base, it is illegal to
photograph anything that flies over the base.
Stories about encounters with security forces near
the area are now the stuff of legend. People say
they have been roughed up, buzzed, shot-up, gassed,
harassed and threatened with death. Unfortunately
for the military there was a slight oversight in
their security plans. They overlooked what you are
about to see here, which is called Whitesides
Mountain, just happens to afford a pretty good,
although still distant view of the Groom Lake
facility. Over the past few years, a couple of
hundred people have made the tough climb up the
mountain to get a glimpse of the base that
officially doesn't exist. This is footage obtained
during a trip that I took up Whitesides. We are
still a couple of miles away, but it's clear the
base has grown tremendously in the past few years.
Now the people at Groom Lake say they know when
anyone is on the mountain and that these intrusions
force them to shut down all of their operations.
According to people I know who've been on the base,
these interruptions really drive them crazy.
Dallas TV station captured this footage, which is
some of the best that I've ever seen. They got
buzzed by a helicopter while they were there and
they also got hassled by Lincoln County cops once
they came down from the mountain. Interestingly,
that new hangar that you are looking at in this
footage has been nicknamed "Hangar 18" by the
people at the base. It's a little joke that they
aim at the so-called ufobiacs who cause them so
much grief.
I've been told by congressional personnel that
another land-grab is in the works. That they are
going to grab this mountain so that in the future
people won't be able to look down on this base.
Since 1989, when our news reports were first
broadcast about alleged aliens operations at this
base, thousands of people have trekked into the
desert armed with cameras and video gear in hopes
of seeing whatever it is that's been buzzing around
out there. For the most part, very few of these
visitors go away unsatisfied. Most are able to see
whatever it is they came to see. The saucer
enthusiasts see things that they deem to be UFOs,
or more accurately they call them HPACs, "Human
Piloted Alien Craft." The aviation buffs that go
out there think they see advanced planes, like the
TR-3A Black Manta or diamond-shaped drones. A few
even think they've seen, or at least heard, the
legendary Aurora. And the folks who think it's all
disinformation consider what the other two groups
are seeing is merely a show or some sort of
diversion put on by the military for their benefit.
In my opinion there are problems with all three of
these viewpoints. With so many people looking for
alien craft it doesn' t seem likely that anyone
would still be flying them at Groom Lake or S-4, as
it's also known. As for advanced airplanes, the Air
Force and other entities have sworn to key
Congressional personnel - sworn - in high-level
meetings, that no such planes exist. Highly
informed sources of mine, who are familiar with the
black budgets, say absolutely there have been no
appropriations for such projects. No Aurora. No
Black Manta. As for the disinformation theory, if
this had all been a sneaky plan, designed to drawn
attention away from other projects at the base, it
was a miserable failure. People are up there every
night of the week looking for whatever it is that
might be underway at Area 51. And if it's all a
show, it has to rank as the longest running show in
history. Longer than Cats and Phantom and My Fair
Lady combined. Because it had to begin before the
base at Groom Lake was even built, before Bob Lazar
was born, before anyone had heard of John Lear or
Falcon and Condor or aliens who eat strawberry ice
cream.
Residents of Lincoln and Nye Counties report seeing
flying disks and other UFOs in and around military
facilities in Nevada since the early 50's. A highly
credible source that I have developed, and about
whom you'll hear much more later, states alien
technology was brought to Nevada from Ohio in '52
or '53. And was stored and studied at a base called
Indian Springs, which is near Area 51. A journalist
named Robert Door, quoted in Tim Good's book,
"Alien Contact," sites an Air Force intelligence
officer who says that alien craft were tested in
Nevada from '53 to '55 and that attempts were made
to fly this craft by attaching conventional
aircraft engines.
Another man named Michael Hunt surfaced in 1980. He
says he worked for The Atomic Energy Commission at
Groom Lake in the 1960's and claimed he saw an
alien disk in flight along with a lot of other
detailed information. He also said this was part of
something called Project Redlight. I tracked down
Mr. Hunt, but he refuses to answer any other
questions.
Project Redlight also pops up in the research of
former Air Force Col., Wendell Stevens. Who says
he's been contacted by several former military men
who worked in Nevada in the 50's and who claimed
knowledge of alien hardware being tested under the
auspices of something called Project Redlight. We
also know that the documents known as the Snowbird
and Aquarius documents mention Nevada as the place
where alien craft were being tested. Although there
certainly has not been any definitive determination
about the legitimacy of these documents. Journalist
Linda Howe and Bill Moore both say they were shown
documents very similar to Snowbird and Aquarius
alleging government possession of alien technology.
And those shadowy sources, Falcon and Condor, said
on national TV back in 1988, that alien stuff could
be found in the Nevada desert. Allow me to
emphasize again, though, I am not endorsing the
claims of Bill Moore, Wendell Stevens, Falcon or
Condor, or anyone. I'm merely pointing out that
information similar to Lazar's has been around for
awhile.
Many other people I've been able to locate have
been able to add bits and pieces of information
that would indicate that craft very similar to UFOs
have been active in the Groom Lake area for
decades. A Nellis radar technician says he tracked
something that traveled at 7,000 miles an hour, but
which could stop on a dime above Groom Lake. When
he reported this to a superior officer, he was
ordered to ignore it. An FAA radar supervisor, his
long range radar station just outside of Las Vegas
has often detected odd aerial activity over Groom,
including something that is capable of really great
speed, but which would often just hover over the
base.
An electrical engineer I met in the television
business used to work at Groom Lake for a period
and says he saw a disk-shaped craft there under a
tarp in a hangar.
A former Wackenhutt security guard with a "Q"
clearance who worked at the test site from 1984-88,
while pulling a shift for the internal entrance for
Area 51, says he and others were buzzed by a small
glowing sphere which came from the direction of the
base.
A Las Vegas attorney who served in the military in
the '70's, says he witnessed a disk-shaped craft
land outside of Area 51, where it was quickly
surrounded by security personnel. The lawyer says
he was subjected to several days of tough
interrogation and was ordered to forget what he had
seen.
Radar readings and disk sightings don't necessarily
prove that this is alien technology, of course. But
when you combine this sort of information with the
testimony of several sources that I've cultivated,
who claim more knowledge of the origin of this
technology, a distinct pattern begins to emerge.
Here's a summary of some of these sources. The
first is a golf pro. What's he got to do with it?
Well, this golf pro happened to be the pro at
Nellis AFB. He became close friends with several
high-ranking military officers, two of whom, during
an out of town trip, confided in him after seeing a
television program about Roswell, that the Roswell
incident was real. And that some of that material
had been taken to Area 51. It seems unlikely that a
golf pro would be targeted for a disinformation
campaign.
Second source, a tax preparer named Lloyd Byron.
His clients included several people who worked at
Groom Lake. Byron says he learned a great deal
about Groom from his clients and was told in no
uncertain terms that alien technology was stored
there. This information was given to him as far
back as 1976.
Third source, an employee of the Clark County court
system in Las Vegas says she previously worked for
a company called Holmes and Narbour, a defense
contractor, and that she had sat in on meetings in
which alien technology at Groom had been discussed
in the company of military personnel. After giving
me some of this information, this woman says that
she and her family were physically threatened by
her former employer. Roy Byron, the tax preparer,
says he was also leaned on by men who identified
themselves as government agents.
An electrical engineer, who spent 15 months at
Groom Lake, working for the US Army in the 1970's,
says he developed friendships with two technicians
who told him they had seen alien disks at the base.
A flight engineer, whom I met through an elected
official in Nevada, says that while stationed at
Groom he had seen not only alien craft but alien
bodies. He confided this to the elected official,
confirmed it to me, but now refuses to answer any
other questions about it.
A photographer who worked on the above ground
nuclear testing in Nevada, says he and others who
were there in the early 60's says they would often
see flying disks at Groom Lake. And they were told
by their supervisor, a physicist named Otto Kraus,
about an alien crash in New Mexico - and remember,
this is years before anything had been written
about Roswell. He says that Kraus also told him
that the program in Nevada was aimed at duplicating
the alien propulsion system.
Doug Schroeder is an EG&G technician. EG&G is a
major defense contractor in Nevada and is also
involved in NASA programs. This guy was put in
charge of his company's video unit in Nevada. In
essence it was his job to travel around and
document on video all of EG&G's various programs in
Nevada. He said that as part of that he saw alien
disks. According to Schroeder, he saw test flights,
we weren't doing so well with the propulsion
studies, but we'd learned a great deal about metals
fabrication from this alien hardware. Schroeder
died unfortunately, two years ago, but I've
interviewed his former co-worker, a man named Doug
Smith, who says Schroeder also told him about
seeing the disks.
John Harbor is the name of a former Air Force
security officer who worked at Groom Lake in the
late 80's. He says that alien technology was being
stored and tested in Nevada and the story was being
withheld from the public because it was felt that
it would cause disintegration of our social
institutions if it ever came out. In particular
they were worried that people would stop paying
their taxes.
Mr. Harbor has disappeared, by the way, and I've
been unable to locate him.
Jim Taglione is name of a computer troubleshooter,
who formerly worked attached to the stealth fighter
program in Tonopah Nevada. He is also, by the way,
known Bob Lazar since the 70's and we'll talk more
about that in a moment. Taglione said he had
several conversations with both civilian and
military personnel about alien technology and
concluded that knowledge of this program was fairly
common among persons with high security clearances
in Nevada. And, as a side note, to tell you about
his association with Lazar, Taglione was grilled by
Air Force OSI agents following the broadcast of my
1989 report.
A couple of other sources. Dr. Dan Crane is the
name of a well-known biologist in Las Vegas. He
said he has been involved in research on alien
tissue samples. He came to my attention when
various people started sending me bits and pieces
of information about him, completely unsolicited.
I'd get a letter from his next door neighbor,
"Check this guy out. I think he's involved in
something." I'd get letters from his old
girlfriend, "Hey, this guy is really weird, check
him out." All unsolicited. Dr. Crane agreed to turn
over to me some documents to prove his involvement,
but he suddenly dropped out of sight, quit all his
professional and community activities, and is now
working as a security guard at a Las Vegas hotel,
which is kind of a strange career twist for a
biologist.
Marion Williams is the name of 30-year veteran of
the CIA. His story first appeared in the MUFON
Journal in 1992. In 1981, again years before Bob
Lazar, Williams confided to members of his family
that alien technology and alien bodies were being
studied at Groom Lake.
This video was captured in December of 1992 by a
television crew from Las Vegas. That's a pretty
weird little craft there. They were actually
looking in another direction and this came from the
other side. You can see it appears to have windows.
And with a little bit of enhancement you can see
what appears to be a disk-shaped craft.
It appeared twice. There were about 12 witnesses.
They had no idea if it was one of ours or one of
theirs.
This was captured by NBC News. They went out into
the desert in search of Aurora and found something
else instead. A large glowing ball of light that
just floated around in the desert. In the words of
the reporter, "it seems to defy the laws of physics
like a flying saucer."
Although the stories about flying saucers at Groom
Lake did not begin with Bob Lazar, they certainly
were boosted into the public consciousness by his
1989 revelations in our KLAS reports. In a
nutshell, here is what Lazar said, if you don't
know.
He claimed to have degrees from Caltech and MIT.
Claimed to have worked on classified projects at
Los Alamos National Labs. And says he was hired by
the United States Navy to work at a facility that
he called S-4, a few miles south of Groom Lake on
the Nellis Range. There he says he worked on
back-engineering alien technology. He says he saw
one alien disk in a test flight. He saw 8 others
that were stored in these hangars built into the
side of a mountain at S-4, which is located on
Papoose Dry Lake.
The craft, he said, were powered by an anti-matter
reactor, which was linked to gravity generators. In
essence these craft can create their own
gravitational fields. He also says he was allowed
to read a series of briefing papers, papers which
included alien autopsy reports, reports on how
aliens had been involved in human evolution, and
how they viewed humans as "containers for souls."
Now Lazar concedes that he underwent some kind of
mind control operations while he was out there,
including the use of hypnosis, drugs and certainly
intimidation. After he became disenchanted with the
program he told a few friends about it and on three
consecutive weeks he took people, as we saw on that
video, with him to see scheduled flights of what he
said were alien disks. He was caught eventually,
threats were made and he didn't go back and that's
about the time I met him.
Criticisms of Lazar's story are many and I think
many are deserved. He's lacksidasical about
documentation, indifferent as to whether anyone
believes him or not, especially anyone associated
with Ufology as I think you heard, and seemingly
has little interest in helping anyone prove his
story. There are a lot of gaps, periods in his life
that can't be accounted for or documented. Parts of
his story that simply do not make any sense.
However, much of his story, too much of his story
does make sense to simply dismiss it or
categorically label it as disinformation. Lazar has
said all along that someone is trying to wipe out
his background, to make him a non-person, possibly
in an effort to discredit him. While I suspect that
some of the gaps in his personal documentation are
his own fault, it now seems more than apparent that
someone really has been messing with his records.
My own efforts to verify his employment and
education have been met with road blocks at every
single step of the way. A U.S. Congressman, whom I
know well and who has tried to help me in trying to
obtain Lazar's paperwork, says that he too has
never seen anything like it.
The main questions concerning Lazar. First, did he
ever work at Los Alamos National Lab? Now, for me,
this was a central question. Because if he had
worked at Los Alamos, it suggests he had to go to
school somewhere. They don't just hire people off
the street for jobs there. And if he worked in
classified programs, it's at least conceivable that
he could have been hired to work on other
classified programs, for example in Nevada.
At first Los Alamos Labs denied having any records
whatsoever on Lazar. They later admitted they found
an employee ID number for him but that was it. Then
they said he worked there, but he didn't work for
the Lab, he worked for a contractor at the lab.
Kirkmeyer is the contractor, it's a kind of
headhunter technical firm. Over the years they've
been even less cooperative than the lab itself. At
first they told me, "Yeah, we're got records on
Lazar. We'll dig them up and send them to you."
Then they clammed up, wouldn't answer any phone
calls, wouldn't return any letters at all. The next
time I did talk to them they said, "No, we don't
have any records. Sorry."
We know Lazar worked at Los Alamos. We know he
worked for Kirkmeyer for at least a time. Lazar is
listed in the laboratory's own phone book. An
article in the Los Alamos newspaper mentions him as
a lab physicist. I have interviewed three lab
employees who remember him working on classified
projects. One of those is a guy, Joe Vananedi, a
technician who is listed in the same phone book
with Lazar.
During the past two months, I decided to again try
to contact Los Alamos and see if they'd changed
their tune. A public information officer was very
helpful, to my surprise. She said that she'd found
two of her own lab employees who remembered Lazar.
She conceded that classified projects had been
undertaken at the facility where he worked and she
said that in her estimation "it appears that what
Lazar is saying is true."
I called Kirkmeyer again, figuring that I'm on a
roll here. They still have no records on Lazar, but
they did tell me that in the early 1980's the
company was a technical headhunter for the lab.
They went out and found people to fill jobs at the
lab. That's the contract it had with Los Alamos. As
part of that work, it conducted background checks
to make sure that the people it hired were actually
qualified. To that extent then, it only makes sense
and seems likely that they went out and recruited
Lazar, as he said, checked his background and then
hired him. At least at that point in his life, he
had a background to check. Not anymore. It suggests
also that he had to go to school somewhere.
Did he go to college, and if so, where? Caltech and
MIT both deny having any records that he went to
either school. The only confirmed college course
that Lazar ever took was an electronics class at a
California junior college. I ask you if that is
enough to get hired at Los Alamos National
Laboratories? Or to be recruited by Kirkmeyer. I
don't think so. And yet I've had no luck in proving
otherwise.
This is probably the weakest part of the Lazar
story. Bob has been unable or unwilling to come up
with any diplomas or grades or check stubs or names
of classmates or teachers that can be verified.
However, those who think this automatically
disqualifies him as being a liar, should keep in
mind that this is where the investigation began. It
was the first information that I obtained from him
was that he had no background to speak of. So it
hardly ranks as some kind of new revelation that
tosses his story out. And secondly ask yourself
this: If someone wanted to screw around with your
college records, could they do it? MIT and Caltech
get millions and millions of dollars in defense
contracts every year. You think the DoD has any
juice at those schools?
You probably, however, still have copies of your
own records. Bob does not. That's fine, but just
think about it this way. If your schools didn't
have copies, what good would your copies be? I
mean, if the school says you were never there, what
good would it do? Even if Lazar had a copy of his
diplomas, it would not convince anyone of anything
except maybe that he's a forger as well as a liar,
as long as the schools still deny that he went
there.
There's another reason why he doesn't have any
records. In 1986, his first wife died. And Lazar in
essence left everything behind. His house, his
books, his records, all his photographic equipment.
What's more, I'll tell you this, gives you a little
insight into what his mindset was at the time. She
didn't just die, she committed suicide. There was a
lot of guilt involved there and he basically walked
away from his former life, and everything involved
with it.
I have however found one person who says he
remembers Bob Lazar going to Caltech in 1980. His
name is Jim Taglione, he's the stealth technician.
He worked with Lazar at a place called Fairchild
Industries. It was their job to test computer chips
for bubble memories. Taglione says that Lazar was
always juggling his work schedule so he could make
the long drive to Pasadena to take classes at
Caltech. Here again, we see that Lazar was working
for a reputable employer in a technician job, but
there are no records to prove that he went to
school.
None of this, of course, proves that he worked on
flying saucers, either. But I submit that there are
a lot of things that Lazar knew about the program
in Nevada that he couldn't have known otherwise.
For instance, he knew there was a place called S-4.
There are some people in UFO circles who say that
they knew there was a place called S-4, but if they
knew it, they didn't print it anywhere because I
haven't found any record of it previous to Bob.
A Nellis spokesperson confirmed for me, there
really is a place called S-4, but he wouldn't tell
me where it was or what was done there. So I filed
a Freedom of Information Request in Washington
earlier this year, actually it was late last year,
and the request was denied. I just said "You don't
have to tell me there are flying saucers there, I
just want to know the place is real. Put it in
writing." No, can't do that. I appealed it, they
denied it, I appealed it, they denied it and that's
where it stands. However, I did recently find a
written reference to S-4 in an old document
relating to a nuclear testing program. It's real
it's there and nobody before Bob Lazar has said
anything about it that I can find out.
Something else Lazar knew, he knew when and where
test flights of these disks were going to take
place. He took people out to see the flights, three
weeks in a row, videotape the test flight. How did
he know?
He also knew a great deal about the internal
operations of Area 51 itself. He knew that EG&G,
the company, handles employment interviews. That
employees are flown into the base. That they are
transferred to these buses with blacked-out
windows. All true. The electrical engineer that I
cited earlier as one of my sources on Area 51, he
met with Lazar on my request, spent a couple of
hours going back and forth. Not on the big
questions about flying saucers, on the picky little
questions. Where do you eat at Groom Lake? How do
you pay for your meals? That sort of thing.
Something that would make it abundantly clear if
you were lying, that you were lying. Lazar passed.
Lazar also should not have known the name Mike
Thigpen. Thigpen works for something called the
Office of Federal Investigations (OFI). They do
background checks for all the test site employees
in Nevada and a lot of Nellis personnel as well.
But they aren't even listed in the phone book. I
had never heard of them, as a journalist. And few
people know that this OFI even exists. Lazar knew.
He knew the name of the agent who came to his house
to check him out. Mike Thigpen. He really does work
for OFI.
And something else Lazar knew. He knew how to pass
a polygraph exam on his truthfulness. Polygrapher,
Terry Tabernetti, a former police officer who I
contacted to conduct the test, he says he has no
doubt whatsoever that Lazar is telling the truth or
at least thinks he's telling the truth about S-4,
the saucers, and the anti-matter reactors.
The final big Lazar question. Was he really
involved with illegal prostitution? The answer is
yes. Now, imagine you're me, and the main witness
in the highest profile story you've ever done in
your professional career comes to you and says he's
involved with an illegal brothel, and oh by the
way, this same brothel is on the same street where
I lived at the time. Well, after my professional
life flashed before my eyes, I told Lazar that he
had to get out of the operation and we had to do a
story on it before someone else did. I won't go
into every detail about this, because much has been
written about the incident, suffice to say that he
did go public at my insistence, probably should
have talked to a lawyer before he did it. The cops
ended up busting him. He was sentenced to
probation. There's a lot about this whole affair
that really stinks.
The madame who was running the operation, has
basically been a hooker since Bob Lazar was 12
years old. It's hard to figure out how he could
corrupt her. Yet, she was was charged with a
misdemeanor and he was charged with 6 felonies.
Guess what this woman is doing these days? If you
get these sleazy tabloids they hand out on the
street corners in Las Vegas on the strip, there she
is back to her old tricks, and I use that term
loosely. She goes under the name of Mistress
Victoria Cats, sells S&M services these days. Lazar
corrupted her, I guess.
For many people this seals it, though, Lazar could
never be a scientist, he could never have been
allowed into a saucer program if he had a penchant
for hookers. And to that I say, we all know smart
people who have done really dumb things. If
Einstein had been busted for DUI, it wouldn't mean
the Theory of Relativity was bogus.
Lazar's disgust for conventional mores is more than
obvious to anyone who knows this guy. He races jet
cars on city streets, he loves machineguns, he
loves fireworks and stages his own outlaw fireworks
shows out in the desert. He flies a pirate skull
and crossbones flag above his house. He has "MJ-12"
as the personalized license plate on his car. On
the first resume I ever saw of his, he listed his
previous interest in a legal brothel in Nevada, as
if that's a real selling point for getting a job.
Why would the Navy hire a guy like this for its
most secret program? Well, one possible answer, and
one answer only comes to mind. He may have been
just what they were looking for. Someone who was
technically qualified, but who could be discredited
if it became necessary. On that score Lazar may
have been the most qualified person in the country.
I'll return to that thought in a moment.
Bottom line on this prostitution mess came to me
while I was reading court documents from his trial.
Lazar was facing up to 60 years in prison for this
prostitution thing. The parole and probation
department in Clark County had actually recommended
that he do some hard time. And the reason they
wanted him to do hard time was they couldn't verify
his background. Welcome to the club, is what I
wanted to say to them, you know. It hit me though,
here he was facing prison time. If he lied to the
court and they caught him lying about his
background, he was going to do time. He was going
to do a lot of time. But the story he told them was
the same story he told me. And the same story he
has told to you, if you've seen the programs. Right
down the line. If he was a UFO conman or scam
artist that was the time to come clean. Lazar,
however, stuck to his story. Los Alamos, Caltech,
MIT, S-4 - all the way down the line.
As part of the court record, Nevada Congressman Jim
Billbray's office sent a letter to the court
explaining how they had also tried to get Lazar's
records from various agencies. Agencies which had
to conduct background checks if he did the things
he was supposed to have done. Even if he only
worked at Los Alamos. The Congressman's office
noted that they had never had a case like this,
ever. And that every agency it had contacted had
dragged its feet every step of the way. They
wouldn't say they didn't have the records, they
just said they were merely looking. And they are
still looking to this day.
David Patrick
On Fri, 12 Apr 2002, The Wholeflaffer Happening!! wrote:
> In article <Pine.GSO.3.96.1020412161847.14916D-100000@suma3>, David Patrick
> says...
> >
> >
> >So, can I take it from this new thread that you've started that you've
> >abandoned the one with the air-traffic controller story in it?
>
> I've already called your bluff, Patrick, you've already admitted
> that you are (1) a troll; (2) have no knowledge of the
> alien presence; (3) get your information from TeeVee;
> (4) have interviewed "Zero" witnesses. Shouldn't
> you be watching your TeeVee? Ha-ha, another
> debunker exposed!!!
And you dodge the questions a fourth time!
It's amazing how you think you should be allowed to post an anonymous
testimony and then not answer one question about it.
You're the one who brought it up in the first place, Flaffer.
Who is he and how did you get his story?
Is this too complicated for you?
David Patrick
George Black
"Sir Arthur C. B. Wholeflaffers A.S.A." <nos...@newsranger.com> wrote in
message news:jUBt8.11731$15....@www.newsranger.com...
> Science, Secrecy, and Ufology By Richard M. Dolan
There's no science.
they keep it a secret that there's no 'alien' activity.
and cover it all with the title ufology.
and they buy it .
wow
Sir Arthur C. B. Wholeflaffers A.S.A.
says...
>
>
And this from somebody who has interviewed zero
witnesses and has obtained all his knowledge about
ETs from TeeVee. It would be pathetic if it wasn't
so typical of debunkers!!! I dare you to name
"one" UFO incident you have investigated.
Don't bother Patrick, I'll answer it: "Zero"!!!
Now go watch your little TeeVee!!
Other distinguishing features of the spOOks-KooKs-Trolls:
* Pretend you are reseaching an incident, when in fact you aren't!!
*Make comments unrelated to do with the subject matter.
*Have closed minds and can't be bothered by facts.
*Refuse to do a stitch of research on this topic.
*Never get within 50 feet of a witness or researcher.
*Attack any book on the topic (except those by the CIA propriety press:
Prometheus).
*Supply gobs and gobs of mis- and dis-information.
*Claim there isn't a credible photo when there has been hundreds if not
thousands of them, as well as thousands of hours of videos.
*Straw man attack.-they will fashion a dummy position held by a UFO researcher.
Then proceed to rip it apart. Many will discredit the researcher on this false
premise.
*Invoke authority.
*Dismiss the charges as "old news."
*Set the criteria for "proof" incredibly high so that it could never be reached.
*Always ignore the first-hand testimony of witnesses to the unexpected credible
sightings.
*Practice scientific research by proclamation not investigation.
George Black
> In article <Pine.GSO.3.96.1020412161847.14916D-100000@suma3>, David
Patrick
> says...
> >
> >
> >So, can I take it from this new thread that you've started that you've
> >abandoned the one with the air-traffic controller story in it?
> >
> >Why won't you tell us who this air-traffic controller was? Why won't you
> >explain how you got his story?
> >
> >David Patrick
>
> And this from somebody who has interviewed zero
> witnesses and has obtained all his knowledge about
> ETs from TeeVee. It would be pathetic if it wasn't
> so typical of debunkers!!! I dare you to name
> "one" UFO incident you have investigated.
> Don't bother Patrick, I'll answer it: "Zero"!!!
> Now go watch your little TeeVee!!
answer the question!!!!
who was the air traffic controller????
and where did the story come from??
jeff george
> >Why won't you tell us who this air-traffic controller was? Why won't you
> >explain how you got his story?
> >
> >David Patrick
>
> And this from somebody who has interviewed zero
> witnesses and has obtained all his knowledge about
> ETs from TeeVee.
You always claimed to have interviewed witnesses, but that's a bunch of crap. You
also used to claim to be a medical doctor, and that was crap. You also say you have
inside knowledge of stuff. You have zippo.
> It would be pathetic if it wasn't
> so typical of debunkers!!! I dare you to name
> "one" UFO incident you have investigated.
I dare you, Holeflapper, to name a single incident where you've interviewed
witnesses, done any research, or talked to anybody who can actually verify all this
nonsense you spout about different alien species, alien hybrid programs, reverse
engineered alien craft, or any of the other garbage that you've taken directly from
X-Files scripts.
Whizbang's Unholy Empire of Correct Opinions
----------------------------------------------------
http://yin.interaccess.com/~whizbang
Sir Arthur C.B. Wholeflaffers A.S.A.
Leave these groups, Troll!!!!
MAYNARD: One might ask, with a career that includes a background in
counterintelligence for both military purposes and drug trafficking, 'how did
you become involved in UFOs?'
My involvement was probably more happenstance than anything else. I became
involved while overseas in Germany, Turkey and Korea. These areas were not noted
for a lot of UFO activity. I was primarily afforded the opportunity to
investigate peripherally a few incidents and implement disinformation or
misinformation programs to divert attention away from the military and toward
the paranormal and/or UFO [followers] in those areas. However, a point I never
revealed to the military, was that my grandmother brought me up believing that
UFOs existed.
Regardless of that point, I was still a staunch conservative (politically) and
placed my military duties ahead of my beliefs. I had a 'country, duty, and
honor'-type attitude. I believed that because of my dedication, and what
appeared to be naivety on my part, my military superiors did not question my
actions when it came to debunking UFO sightings. However, I became very
intrigued as to why UFOs were not to become public knowledge and, that they
(the government) preferred that any UFO information for public consumption stay
in the realm of the paranormal and/or the unreliable UFO resources.
It took me several years to figure out that this blatant disregard for public
opinion was a plan designed to keep and maintain the pressure of proof on
certain elements of our society.
The plan was basically to place the burden of proof on the UFO researchers and
to steer the public away from the military organizations that were directly
involved in UFO research. In this plan I deduced that the military was using the
media to keep these UFO researchers from making too much of the issue by having
the media brand them as kooks, weird, paranoid and unbelievable; better yet, by
having people who go around chasing after shadows in a belief that UFOs are real
and the government is hiding something.
To date, this plan has worked well above average, and the general public still
Sir Arthur C. B. Wholeflaffers A.S.A.
>
>"Sir Arthur C. B. Wholeflaffers A.S.A." wrote:
>
>> >Why won't you tell us who this air-traffic controller was? Why won't you
>> >explain how you got his story?
>> >
>> >David Patrick
>>
>> And this from somebody who has interviewed zero
>> witnesses and has obtained all his knowledge about
>> ETs from TeeVee.
>
>> It would be pathetic if it wasn't
>> so typical of debunkers!!! I dare you to name
>> "one" UFO incident you have investigated.
>
>I dare you, Holeflapper, to name a single incident where you've interviewed
>witnesses....
This debunker trick is not new, by the way!! I have exposed
Patrick, Hugh/Arts Twin, Twit, Sludge, Wilson, Griffin.,
Shitley, O-BORG, Borsch and Echelon to be either
spOOks, KooKs, and trolls. Your are in the later
category. Your cults knowledge of the extraterrestrials
is zero, but your cults knowledge of disrupting newsgroups
is great. Try to reverse that, Troll, before you post again!!
Again, I did predict this would happen, when
the majority of our citizens accepted the
alien presence, the debunkers would
become even more desperate and illogical
as ever. Yes, I have been proved right once again!!!
- Avoid the evidence. The more abstract and theoretical
you keep your arguments, the less easily people will notice
that you haven't examined the actual evidence. Not examining
the evidence allows you to say with impunity, "I have seen
absolutely no evidence to support such a claim." If examining
the evidence becomes unavoidable, report back that "there is
nothing new here." If confronted by a watertight body of
evidence that has survived the most rigorous tests' simply
dismiss it as being "too pat!"
- Call the kettle black. While maintaining absolute faith
in the ability of the current scientific paradigm to explain
everything, accuse your opponents of being "true believers."
State categorically that the unconventional arises exclusively
from the "will to believe" and may be dismissed as, at best, an
honest misinterpretation of the conventional. In this way you
can camouflage your evangelical hellfire and brimstone under a
facade of cool impartiality.
jeff george
> >> It would be pathetic if it wasn't
> >> so typical of debunkers!!! I dare you to name
> >> "one" UFO incident you have investigated.
> >
> >I dare you, Holeflapper, to name a single incident where you've interviewed
> >witnesses....
>
> This debunker trick is not new, by the way!! I have exposed
> Patrick, Hugh/Arts Twin, Twit, Sludge, Wilson, Griffin.,
> Shitley, O-BORG, Borsch and Echelon to be either
> spOOks, KooKs, and trolls.
You've exposed no one. Did you post their NSA security badge pictures? No.
> Your are in the later
> category. Your cults knowledge of the extraterrestrials
> is zero,
You have no knowledge of anything except bad sci-fi scripts. Every time you
post about greys, preying mantis types, reptilians, I'm thinking of all the
movies you took these from ..... X-Files, The Mantis, V, etc.
> Again, I did predict this would happen, when
> the majority of our citizens accepted the
> alien presence,
You always claim you've predicted stuff, but you've never actually accurately
predicted anything.
Much like your claim to have "exposed" people, you also cite non-existent polls
which claim that most Americans accept this vague thing you call the "alien
presence." Please provide the name of one of these polls, just one, that
actually says this is true. Newsweek, Wall St. Journal, MSNBC, whoever.
> - Avoid the evidence.
Your favorite tactic. You always claim inside info, but never specify where
it's from, and never indicate how this info corroborates anything you say. When
asked for proof, you always claim you've already posted it, but google searches
show otherwise.
> - Call the kettle black.
No one insults their detractors with baseless charges more than you do. This
makes you a detestable hypocrite and a KOOK.
The Wholeflaffer Happening!!
>
>"Sir Arthur C. B. Wholeflaffers A.S.A." kooked:
>
>> >> It would be pathetic if it wasn't
>> >> so typical of debunkers!!! I dare you to name
>> >> "one" UFO incident you have investigated.
>> >
>> >I dare you, Holeflapper, to name a single incident where you've interviewed
>> >witnesses....
>>
>> This debunker trick is not new, by the way!! I have exposed
>> Patrick, Hugh/Arts Twin, Twit, Sludge, Wilson, Griffin.,
>> Shitley, O-BORG, Borsch and Echelon to be either
>> spOOks, KooKs, and trolls.
>
I exposed you a long time ago of being
a nitwit, a clown and a terrible debunker.
Yes, many moons ago the Debunker
had status, some class and integrity,
but those days are long gone. Most debunkers
have called it a day, moved on or passed away.
Now all we are left with are the bottom-of-the-barrel
debunkers, and it's not a pretty sight!!
Listen, I understand your sense of defeat,
all debunkers go through it. But it's time
to move on and perhaps in you case, time to grow up!!
- - - - - -
- Practice debunkery-by-association. Lump together all
phenomena popularly deemed paranormal and suggest that their
proponents and researchers speak with a single voice. In this
way you can indiscriminately drag material across disciplinary
lines or from one case to another to support your views as
needed.
Sir Arthur C. B. Wholeflaffers A.S.A.
>and where did the story come from??
debunkers to poop in their collective pants!!
- - - - - - - - - - -
You know, in the midst of the debunkers screaming,
and making complete fools of themselves (again!), the story
got lost in the mix. So here it is again, and now it's time for the
debunkers to poop in their collective pants!!
- - - - - - - - - - -
AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLER TELLS OF UFO INCIDENTS
An air traffic controller working at Los Angeles International Airport (LAX)
says that in the six years he has worked there, he has personally witnessed
four unexplained UFO incidents.
"My area of jurisdiction [covers] northeast of LAX, out over the Mohave
desert (including the Edwards test ranges), and up around the LAS area
(including 'Dreamland')," he says. This area includes a large part of the
most restricted airspace in the western United States, an area known to host
a large amount of top-secret aircraft activity and also rich in UFO reports.
The writer says he is kept completely apprised of even the most secret air
traffic. "We work closely with the military, and when I am at a sector, there
is NOTHING that goes in my sky (military or civilian) without my knowledge.
Even the most classified military projects have proper protocol for
reservation of airspace, and numerous flight restrictions (they're not about
to let their multi-billion dollar projects be sighted or harmed by some
dentist's Cessna 172 chugging along for a weekend trip to Vegas)," he says.
Codenames or nicknames are assigned to the most secret aircraft. "They'll
just call them something else to keep with procedures and restrictions (the
Stealth fighter went around as an "A6" fighter when it was classified)," he
explains.
That being the case, when he sees something that is truly unidentified, he's
pretty sure it's not a super-secret military project. And he has seen some
unusual things.
"In my (only) six years at the Center, I have personally been part of three
bizarre encounters, non-military and non-civilian. I'm just one of 15,000
controllers, too, so there have to be many more that go unreported.
"We used to have a specific number to report 'UFO' sightings," he says, "but
in the late 80's the directive was replaced by an official 'advisory' to tell
pilots, if requested, that they should contact a university or research
institution, and no further paperwork was required (unless it was a near
mid-air [collision])."
On one occasion, he saw another controller discuss a UFO incident with his
supervisor. "The controller told the supe about the encounter, and after both
determined there was nothing on radar, they just kind of shook their heads
and rubbed their chins, and that was that.
"This I believe is what typically happens," he says. "Nobody knows what to
do, really. There is no government 'coverup,' no mirror-sunglassed agents
'debriefing' us in the back room, no military specialists to take reports.
But 'UFO' encounters happen.
"I've directly been involved in three incidents -- DIRECT involvement. I was
there, plugged into the sector, my own eyes were watching the radar, it
actually happened! I've been puzzled on all three."
The writer describes his three UFO incidents as follows:
1) (Date uncertain, probably 1992) Northeast of LAX, a UAL 747 on climbout,
about 24,000 feet (Flight level 240), suddenly said, "Do you show something
went right under us?" We didn't; there was absolutely nothing on the radar.
The pilot said it "went right under us, opposite direction, about 3 times the
normal closure rate," which normally is 900 knots (head-on jets at 450 knots
each), so 3 times is about 2700 knots, minus the 450 of the 747 means it was
approximately 2,200 knots. We pulled up the primary radar (raw radar returns)
and there was absolutely nothing. The pilot said it was "kind of like a
rocket, but with something on the top," and it was "about the size of an
F-16." I got on the landline to the lower controller to warn him for
subsequent aircraft. The only nearby restricted (military) area had no
activity at those altitudes, and there were no military aircraft in the area.
We told the supe, and he just said "huh." We just shook our heads, and mostly
forgot about it, though the pilot did make a report on it and it appeared in
Aviation Week and Space Technology.
2) (1995) I was working a UPS jet in descent to ONT (Ontario), as the only
controller at the sector. There was ZERO traffic within 30 miles of him, but
he said a "large aircraft of some type, no, I'm not sure what it is" just
went over and in front of him, crossing right to left. It was about 9 pm
local, after sundown. I showed NOTHING on radar, and anything large would
show up on primary radar (we see even tiny Piper Cubs). The military
restricted airspace R-2508 was completely cold and the airspace turned over
to us. I asked the pilot further if he could see the type, and he said, "No,
it was just very large, and it had some strange lights." He was very shaken
and asked for a number to call in. I gave him the Area's number and told my
supe he'd be calling. After they landed (15 minutes later) he called in and
talked to my supe. I just told him what I saw -- there was NOTHING on radar,
and NO military activity, and again we just shook our heads. The Area Manager
(facility boss) was called in and he shook his head and said they "used to
have a UFO reporting number, but we don't any more." That was that.
3) (date not given) I was the only controller in the area during the S-L-O-W
midnight shift. Two little cargo aircraft within a 200 mile range was all.
This was around 3 am. The military airspace (R2508) was cold and was turned
over to us. Nothing going on, not even up at Dreamland -- all the military
controllers were home in bed.
I'm sitting there and I notice a primary target moving across the desert,
about 30 miles east of MHV (Mohave), 20 or so north of Edwards and near our
sensitive Boron radar site, close enough that the radar picks up everything,
even cars on the highway. The target was zipping along about 4 miles between
updates, which is about 20 nautical miles per minute, or about Mach 2. Then,
within a 1-mile radius, it reversed course and headed the other way. (At 450
knots, jets need about 10 miles or more to reverse course, and at supersonic
speeds even more. The SR-71 needs half the state to turn around!). I lost it
as it got away from the Boron site, and wasn't sure what to make of it.
One hour later the Kern County Sheriff's [Department] called in. I answered
-- I was the only controller in the Area. They had several calls about an
extremely bright light moving around the area north of Tehachapi. Did we have
any aircraft in that area? I was staring right at the scope, right at
Tehachapi, and there was nothing, not even a primary target (no ground
clutter even). I asked them if it was a flare. He said no, it's been there
for a half hour, moving around, no sound, and they had a deputy right there
looking at it too. I said we had nothing there, but I'd call him back if I
saw anything. I saw nothing. About 30 minutes later the Sheriff called back
and said the light "turned off" and was gone. There was nothing on the radar
the whole time.
George Black
"Sir Arthur C.B. Wholeflaffers A.S.A." <nos...@newsranger.com> wrote in
message news:%0Kt8.11858$15....@www.newsranger.com...
> In article <a97ps2$pnn$1...@lust.ihug.co.nz>, George Black says...
> >
> >
> >"Sir Arthur C. B. Wholeflaffers A.S.A." <nos...@newsranger.com> wrote in
> >message news:0GJt8.11857$15....@www.newsranger.com...
> >> In article <Pine.GSO.3.96.1020412161847.14916D-100000@suma3>, David
> >Patrick
> >> says...
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >So, can I take it from this new thread that you've started that you've
> >> >abandoned the one with the air-traffic controller story in it?
> >> >
> >> >Why won't you tell us who this air-traffic controller was? Why won't
you
> >> >explain how you got his story?
> >> >
> >> >David Patrick
> >>
> >> And this from somebody who has interviewed zero
> >> witnesses and has obtained all his knowledge about
> >> ETs from TeeVee. It would be pathetic if it wasn't
> >> so typical of debunkers!!! I dare you to name
> >> "one" UFO incident you have investigated.
> >> Don't bother Patrick, I'll answer it: "Zero"!!!
> >> Now go watch your little TeeVee!!
> >
> >
> >answer the question!!!!
>
> Leave these groups, Troll!!!!
traffic controllers who claim to have 'seen' UFOs but never have names.
George Black
> In article <a97ps2$pnn$1...@lust.ihug.co.nz>, George Black says...
>
> >and where did the story come from??
> debunkers to poop in their collective pants!!
> - - - - - - - - - - -
> You know, in the midst of the debunkers screaming,
> and making complete fools of themselves (again!), the story
> got lost in the mix. So here it is again, and now it's time for the
> debunkers to poop in their collective pants!!
> - - - - - - - - - - -
> AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLER TELLS OF UFO INCIDENTS
>
> An air traffic controller working at Los Angeles International Airport
(LAX)
> says that in the six years he has worked there, he has personally
witnessed
> four unexplained UFO incidents.
Who is this controller???????
How many other controllers saw the same things at the same time?????
Seeing that LAX Controllers don't control a hell of a lot of VFR traffic
rest of rambling hersay 'evidence' deleted
jeff george
> >You've exposed no one....
>
> I exposed you a long time ago of being
> a nitwit, a clown and a terrible debunker.
You did? When? What was the date of that exposure? I don't remember being
exposed. Nope, sorry, the last person in these here NGs who's ever done anything
like that is you. Nope, you've never exposed a thing, except that your source
material is sci-fi schlock on the Fox Network.
hugh
or by calling someone a Troll/ Debunker. Which by the way you are! A
trolling debunker
Sir Arthur C. B. Wholeflaffers A.S.A.
>
>
>"Sir Arthur C. B. Wholeflaffers A.S.A." <nos...@newsranger.com> wrote in
>message news:ECLt8.11870$15....@www.newsranger.com...
>> In article <a97ps2$pnn$1...@lust.ihug.co.nz>, George Black says...
>>
>> >and where did the story come from??
>> debunkers to poop in their collective pants!!
>> - - - - - - - - - - -
>> You know, in the midst of the debunkers screaming,
>> and making complete fools of themselves (again!), the story
>> got lost in the mix. So here it is again, and now it's time for the
>> debunkers to poop in their collective pants!!
>> - - - - - - - - - - -
>> AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLER TELLS OF UFO INCIDENTS
>>
>> An air traffic controller working at Los Angeles International Airport
>(LAX)
>> says that in the six years he has worked there, he has personally
>witnessed
>> four unexplained UFO incidents.
>
>Who is this controller???????
Why do you want to know, oh, you don't want to know
because you are a troll, have never interviewed
a witness and is here only to disrupt this group.
Please leave now.
I've met many people
in the aerospace industry with similar stories.
But of course I research this material and you don't!!
- - - -
AIR TRAFFIC TRANSCRIPT OF TEXAS AIRLINE UFO SIGHTING
The crews of two commercial
airliners reported anomalous aerial activity in their vicinity at 37,000 feet
near Dallas, Texas on October 26, 1999. A partial transcript of communication
between the pilots and the Fort Worth FAA Center has been released. The
pilots are designated AC#1 and AC#2, and the tower is designated FWC.
Reference to the airline companies has been deleted.
AC#1: Ah, Ft. Worth Center, we just got, ah, a series of three very
bright lights, ah, it appears at our 11 o'clock (unintelligible). We don't
know the distance, but it's pretty far out there, maybe 20 miles or so. Do
you have a formation of airplanes flying out there?
FWC: I'm not showing anything.
AC#1: I hate to sound like one of those wacky UFO reportings, but I
have never seen anything like it before. It's, ah, 11 o'clock, for who knows
how far, it could be 15 to 20 miles away, three very, very bright lights. It
looked like they went west, and the lights appeared, and then disappeared.
(pause)
AC#1: Is there a refueling track out there or something like that? Or
could there be somebody out there with their lights on during refuel, or
something like that?
FWC: We have a refueling track out there, but we don't have anybody in
it right now. I already thought about that. I'm showing some interesting
primary targets but that's probably just some kind of anomaly. I don't
believe there are any aircraft out there. Well, actually, at 11-12 o'clock,
at maybe 10 miles.
AC#1: Roger, ah, I have a witness, the copilot and I both saw it and,
ah, I don't know what to tell you, it was very odd.
FWC: (unintelligible)
AC#1: Ah, we don't see any strobes or anything, (unintelligible), ah,
the lights were far enough apart that led me to believe the airplanes were
closer than further and, usually after the headlights turn away, ah, the
landing lights turn away, you can see strobes or something, but we don't see
anything out there.
FWC: (unintelligible) Approximately, ah, you believe it looks like a
flight of three you were seeing?
AC#1: It was a flight of three and, ah, at first glance I would have
thought it was a refueling operation, but generally they don't happen at this
time of the morning and, ah, if it was an air refueling operation, I know the
airplanes are in formation and, ah, the lights were far enough apart that it
would lead me to believe that even in group formation or even, ah, a wider
formation, they would be closer to us.
FWC: AC#1 Roger, ah, approximately what altitude are they at now?
AC#1: I'd say our altitude, ah, plus or minus a couple of thousand
feet.
FWC: Roger, I'll attempt to notify anybody at altitude center.
AC#2: With you level at 370.
FWC: AC#2 Roger.
AC#2: We spotted that flight about 5 mintes ago. It looked like it was
on the other side of, north of Dallas, about 80 miles or so away from us.
FWC: Roger, confirming you also saw it?
AC#2: Affirmative.
FWC: Well, it appears you have some corroboration now.
George Black
> In article <a98746$9g0$1...@lust.ihug.co.nz>, George Black says...
> >
> >
> >"Sir Arthur C. B. Wholeflaffers A.S.A." <nos...@newsranger.com> wrote in
> >message news:ECLt8.11870$15....@www.newsranger.com...
> >> In article <a97ps2$pnn$1...@lust.ihug.co.nz>, George Black says...
> >>
> >> >and where did the story come from??
> >> debunkers to poop in their collective pants!!
> >> - - - - - - - - - - -
> >> You know, in the midst of the debunkers screaming,
> >> and making complete fools of themselves (again!), the story
> >> got lost in the mix. So here it is again, and now it's time for the
> >> debunkers to poop in their collective pants!!
> >> - - - - - - - - - - -
> >> AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLER TELLS OF UFO INCIDENTS
> >>
> >> An air traffic controller working at Los Angeles International Airport
> >(LAX)
> >> says that in the six years he has worked there, he has personally
> >witnessed
> >> four unexplained UFO incidents.
> >
> >Who is this controller???????
> Why do you want to know, oh, you don't want to know
> because you are a troll, have never interviewed
> a witness and is here only to disrupt this group.
> Please leave now.
So you don't know who this person is. There is no associated name connected
to the article.
> I've met many people
> in the aerospace industry with similar stories.
> But of course I research this material and you don't!!
No son, you cut and paste nonsense
You haven't read your vaunted report have you :-))
Visuals not picked up on radar. Wow
>
David Patrick
On Fri, 12 Apr 2002, Sir Arthur C. B. Wholeflaffers A.S.A. wrote:
> This debunker trick is not new, by the way!! I have exposed
> Patrick, Hugh/Arts Twin, Twit, Sludge, Wilson, Griffin.,
> Shitley, O-BORG, Borsch and Echelon to be either
> spOOks, KooKs, and trolls. Your are in the later
> category. Your cults knowledge of the extraterrestrials
> is zero, but your cults knowledge of disrupting newsgroups
> is great. Try to reverse that, Troll, before you post again!!
I want to actually interview this mysterious air-traffic controller of
yours.
It's interesting that you're doing all you can to stop me doing that.
Why not give me his name and tell me how you got his story, then I will
investigate, personally, this story. The reason you refuse to give any
details is because you're afraid I'll do just that.
To prove your superiority to me why not post one specific example you have
personally investigate? For instance, why not the best case with the most
compelling evidence for alien contact that you've investigated?
I predict you'll respond with childish insults and evasion. Prove me
wrong.
David Patrick
Sir Arthur C. B. Wholeflaffers A.S.A.
says...
We've been all through this Patrick, you are NOT a researcher,
you have interviewed ZERO witnesses as of now.
You have done ZERO research on the alien presence,
which includes alien implants, crop circles and impresions,
animal mutilations, mass sightings, abductions, invasion
of military bases, the changing of nuclear weapon launch codes,
thousands upon thousands of trace cases where the
UFO lands and takes off, military and corporate documents,
and too much more to list.
You have already admitted that you (and your Cult of Useful Idiots)
are here to disrupt these groups, and I call you on it.
Now go back to your TeeVee, where you've already admitted
that you get your information. Thanks in advance,
Sir Arthur
David Patrick
On Sat, 13 Apr 2002, Sir Arthur C. B. Wholeflaffers A.S.A. wrote:
> In article <Pine.GSO.3.96.1020413102105.9664B-100000@sumb1>, David Patrick
> says...
>
> We've been all through this Patrick, you are NOT a researcher,
Everyone has to start somewhere and after reading many books and articles
on the subject over the years I want to start here.
And yet you obstruct me. You try to stop the dissemination of evidence. Is
this the actions of someone trying to reveal the truth?
Of course not.
Who is this mysterious air-traffic controller? How did you get his story?
> You have already admitted that you (and your Cult of Useful Idiots)
> are here to disrupt these groups, and I call you on it.
Which post exactly did I state I was here to disrupt these groups? Find it
on Google and post the link.
> Now go back to your TeeVee, where you've already admitted
> that you get your information. Thanks in advance,
And yet YOU just admitted that YOU get your evidence from TeeVee
programmes as well. What a total hypocrite you are.
Oh well.
David Patrick
Carl Wilson
A.S.A. <nos...@newsranger.com> wrote:
>Science, Secrecy, and Ufology By Richard M. Dolan
>
>Secrecy permeates the UFO field. What does this mean for Ufology as a science?
>Answer: the field cannot really be handled scientifically within the public
>domain. The great model is the Manhattan Project. When a project is undertaken
>at highly classified levels, you will find nothing of value about it within the
>mainstream. This was true during the development of the atomic bomb in the
>1940s; it is true regarding the UFO.
If it's all so secret, then where do you get all the "information"
that you post on a daily basis?
George Black
> In article <Pine.GSO.3.96.1020413102105.9664B-100000@sumb1>, David Patrick
> says...
>
>
> We've been all through this Patrick, you are NOT a researcher,
> you have interviewed ZERO witnesses as of now.
> You have done ZERO research on the alien presence,
> which includes alien implants, crop circles and impresions,
> animal mutilations, mass sightings, abductions, invasion
> of military bases, the changing of nuclear weapon launch codes,
> thousands upon thousands of trace cases where the
> UFO lands and takes off, military and corporate documents,
> and too much more to list.
Well there's absolutely nothing in my AIP concerning these 'flight
movements'
and NOTAMS have no restricted areas devoted to such airspace use.
John Lewis
A.S.A. <nos...@newsranger.com> wrote the following fiction:
>- - - -
>AIR TRAFFIC TRANSCRIPT OF TEXAS AIRLINE UFO SIGHTING
>
>The crews of two commercial
>airliners reported anomalous aerial activity in their vicinity at 37,000 feet
>near Dallas, Texas on October 26, 1999. A partial transcript of communication
>between the pilots and the Fort Worth FAA Center has been released. The
>pilots are designated AC#1 and AC#2, and the tower is designated FWC.
>Reference to the airline companies has been deleted.<
Gee, I wonder why Artie would post drivel like this?
If this really *were* an FAA release, the airlines would have been
IDed, Artie.
You really must learn to get these little details right in your
fictions, okay?
Mark Shippey
> The debunker/troll never asks a worthwhile
> question:
But Wholeflaffer, you told us that there is "nothing of
value" in mainstream UFOlogy in another posts. So if you
post nothing of value, and it is all worthless crap, then
what worthwhile question can be asked? Maybe.......
How many Wholeflaffers does it take to change a light bulb?
Carl Wilson
wrote:
What makes you think that *any* number of Wholeflaffers *can* change
a light bulb?
Bob Casanova
sci.skeptic, posted by Mark Shippey <cap...@anti-grey.net>:
Why should they want to? Conspiracy theorists, like
conspiracies, *enjoy* being in the dark.
--
Bob C.
"Evidence confirming an observation is
evidence that the observation is wrong."
- McNameless
John Baker
"Mark Shippey" <cap...@anti-grey.net> wrote in message
news:3cb9c...@news.vic.com...
You're assuming they'd be smart enough to notice it's burned out to begin
with. <G>
>
>
>
Sir Horry Patter
wrote:
> How many Wholeflaffers does it take to change a light bulb?
What is a light bulb?
1. Is a light bulb a thing like a bulb that travels faster than light?
2. Is a light bulb a newly discovered LED on Mars?
3. Is a light bulb 'Bases Underground & Living Beings' creating
light?
Stay tuned folks.....
Si® Å®thü® ÇB Whøléƒlåƒƒé® Çøñüñd®üm ®ü1øfÜS. ÅSÅ.
will be online soon to share his updates.
;-)
_______________________________________
<<< Extraterrestrials UFOs and Space >>>
http://ebe-ufos.tripod.com/UFO_alien_fun.html
<<< Free International UFO Club >>>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/freeufovideos/
jeff george
None. All the bulbs in there have those little protective cages around
them, so the orderlies take care of it.
SPHINX Technologies
Mark Shippey <cap...@anti-grey.net> wrote:
>The Wholeflaffer Thing posted:
>> Science, Secrecy, and Ufology By Richard M. Dolan
>
>> Secrecy permeates the UFO field. What does this mean for Ufology as a science?
>> Answer: the field cannot really be handled scientifically within the public
>> domain. The great model is the Manhattan Project. When a project is undertaken
>> at highly classified levels, you will find nothing of value about it within
>> the mainstream.
>
>
>it is hidden by The Coverup,
Yep. At least they've tried. But most of it is freely available now,
here, in Aviation Leak, Janes, and so on. You just have to know which
pieces to believe, 'cuz that's how the Sp00k disinformation process works.
As for the Manhattan Project, or MANHATTAN DISTRICT as it was officially
known in terms of codewords at the time, Dr. Vannevar Bush, aka MJ-1,
ran that project... and also, by coincidence, the UFO back-engineering
project, "MAJESTIC". His autobiography, by the way, was entitled
"Pieces of the Action", and went into considerable detail on MANHATTAN
DISTRICT, but among the "Pieces" he did not mention was MAJESTIC.
What's sad, though, is that the moratorium on progress in getting to the
answers on UFOs is paralleled by a near-total moratorium on propulsion
technology, except in the Black R&D world (Aviation Leak, March 1992 was
it, p 67 if I recall). And BTW don't IRRITATE me with your response,
Sp00key, I mean Shippey, or I will GO INTO DETAIL on this, and your bosses
would probably rather I didn't.
>and this is why of course you don't have
>even ONE piece of verifiable evidence after all these decades!
Wrong. Always the BIG LIE. I guess the testimony of Greer's hundreds of
highly-cleared witnesses is something you find alarming, eh?
>And Wholeflaffer, if there is "nothing of value" in the mainstream, does
>this make your posts worthless crap?
Uh, sloppy logic there, Spookey, I mean Shippey. Wholeflaffer is hardly
MAINSTREAM, now, IS HE? I see it's true what they say about how badly
our nation's educational system has slipped, judging by YOUR inability
to reason clearly.
-The SPHINX
SPHINX Technologies
largely because the sp00ks had been dragging down the intellectual
level to a point that it wasn't much fun any more.
Now I come back and see some serious and well-written commentary,
by Wholeflaffer, that is basically on target (except for some aspects
he is apparently not aware of), and suddenly the sp00ks go apoplectic
and gang up on him with low humor like this.
Folks, What Is Wrong With This Picture?
Casual visitors to the NG are advised to do their own research, and
not let their opinions be given to them by low-lifes who are only into
ad hominem attacks and ridicule.
Planets are being discovered at a rapid pace. Bits of meteorite are
being found that even the mainstream is gradually accepting as having
evidence of ET life on them. Most real scientists are now fairly certain
that there is other life out there. Those with brain engaged are figuring
out that, in a universe that is estimated to be somewhere around 12 to
14 Billion Earth years old, some of that life is probably quite highly
evolved, almost certainly billions of years beyond where we humans are
just now (since our planet formed what, 4.5 billion years ago?). So,
the only reasonable question is, "Where Are They?", and meanwhile
MILLIONS of us (myself not included) have SEEN them and reported them,
with remarkable consistency all around the globe, but guys like this
Mental Midget I'm responding to can't get their mind around even the
POSSIBILITY that all those reports are just what they seem to be,
answers to the question "Where Are They?".
Maybe the evolution of human intelligence has reversed direction lately.
Yes, that must be it, this Horry Patter must be one of the hybrids the
ETs have genetically altered for lower IQ. That's the ONLY reason he
wouldn't be able to "Get It". Must've done a lot of the other sp00ks
while they were at it.
-The SPHINX
In article <3cba0794...@news.chc.ihug.co.nz>,
Mark Shippey
SPHINX Technologies <sph...@theworld.com> wrote:
> As for the Manhattan Project, or MANHATTAN DISTRICT as it was officially
> known in terms of codewords at the time, Dr. Vannevar Bush, aka MJ-1,
> ran that project... and also, by coincidence, the UFO back-engineering
> project, "MAJESTIC".
Right yea, this is old stuff, in all kinds of UFO Conspiracy
publications. Do you ahve any more proof of this than they did,
or is it still only in the realm of the UFO folk tale?
jeff george
> Now I come back and see some serious and well-written commentary,
> by Wholeflaffer, that is basically on target
On target? Well, since you've been away, one thing has not changed:
Holeflapper still provides not a single shred of proof for anything he posts.
> Casual visitors to the NG are advised to do their own research
That's correct, because nothing Holeflapper says is ever correct, nor can it
be proven.
> Planets are being discovered at a rapid pace.
Not exactly. By examining the movement of certain bodies, they theorize that
other planets exist around other stars.
> Bits of meteorite are
> being found that even the mainstream is gradually accepting as having
> evidence of ET life on them.
That's absolutely incorrect. There are more doubters than believers in the
idea that molecules found on Martian rocks show evidence of microscopic life.
> Most real scientists are now fairly certain
> that there is other life out there.
That is incorrect also. The odds are that something else lives out there, but
nobody is fairly certain about anything.
> Those with brain engaged are figuring
> out that, in a universe that is estimated to be somewhere around 12 to
> 14 Billion Earth years old, some of that life is probably quite highly
> evolved, almost certainly billions of years beyond where we humans are
> just now (since our planet formed what, 4.5 billion years ago?). So,
> the only reasonable question is, "Where Are They?", and meanwhile
> MILLIONS of us (myself not included) have SEEN them and reported them,
Ah, see, this is a problem. Seeing UFOs does not prove ET life. You've seen
something unidentifiable. You're really stretching it to instantly say "Must
be from another planet."
jeff george
> Uh, sloppy logic there, Spookey, I mean Shippey. Wholeflaffer is hardly
> MAINSTREAM, now, IS HE? I see it's true what they say about how badly
> our nation's educational system has slipped, judging by YOUR inability
> to reason clearly.
Your approach to logic is also not mainstream. For example, you equate a sighting of
an unidentified object with proof of extraterrestrial life. You sort of skip
scientific method there.
George Black
"SPHINX Technologies" <sph...@TheWorld.com> wrote in message
news:GunA0...@world.std.com...
> Now this is FASCINATING! I've been away from this NG for awhile,
> largely because the sp00ks had been dragging down the intellectual
> level to a point that it wasn't much fun any more.
>
> Now I come back and see some serious and well-written commentary,
> by Wholeflaffer, that is basically on target (except for some aspects
> he is apparently not aware of), and suddenly the sp00ks go apoplectic
> and gang up on him with low humor like this.
>
David Patrick
On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, SPHINX Technologies wrote:
> Now this is FASCINATING! I've been away from this NG for awhile,
> largely because the sp00ks had been dragging down the intellectual
> level to a point that it wasn't much fun any more.
>
> Now I come back and see some serious and well-written commentary,
> by Wholeflaffer, that is basically on target (except for some aspects
> he is apparently not aware of), and suddenly the sp00ks go apoplectic
> and gang up on him with low humor like this.
>
> Folks, What Is Wrong With This Picture?
>
> Casual visitors to the NG are advised to do their own research, and
> not let their opinions be given to them by low-lifes who are only into
> ad hominem attacks and ridicule.
That's not my experience. When Flaffer posted a testimony from someone he
claimed was an air-traffic controller and request for any evidence was met
with personal attacks and abuse. When others pointed out apparent
inconsitencies in the controller's statement all they got was abuse and
personal attacks.
Flaffer posts all the stuff he does with no supporting evidence. I can't
track down this air-traffic controller no matter how much I want to,
because Flaffer has given no actual evidence except this anonymous
testimony.
I don't think his posts are balanced as he seems to think he is above the
scientific method and that everything he says is gospel. Anyone who goes
around like that is going to be ridiculed.
David Patrick
Sir Horry Patter
Technologies) wrote:
>Maybe the evolution of human intelligence has reversed direction lately.
>Yes, that must be it, this Horry Patter must be one of the hybrids the
>ETs have genetically altered for lower IQ. That's the ONLY reason he
>wouldn't be able to "Get It". Must've done a lot of the other sp00ks
>while they were at it.
heh, I wasn't attacking
Si® Å®thü® ÇB Whøléƒlåƒƒé® Çøñüñd®üm ®ü1øfÜS. ÅSÅ.
His posts are very interesting.
Humor and even silliness is a gift from God.
If everyone was serious all the time, we'd just become a bunch of sad
aliens aye?
And I'm not a hybrid.....
I'm a just a bit of Happy HouseFly Potty Patter.
Friends and I have some serious information at our sites, but we can
also get together and just be nutters too sometimes.
It is not against the law to let your hair down (Mr/Mrs/Master)
Sphinx.
Don't expect me to be your perfect poster.
Go away again, read some more books, study, and then you'll find out
that even some intelligent extraterrestrials have a sense of humor and
may even be clowns sometimes.
Who knows, and What is on second base.
;-)
LOL
Have a great day!
________________________________________
<<< Extraterrestrials UFOs and Space >>>
http://ufos.250x.com
Harlow Campbell
> largely because the sp00ks had been dragging down the intellectual
> level to a point that it wasn't much fun any more.
Translation- You got your ass kicked by your intellectual superiors and then you
tucked-tail and headed for zee hills. Now fuck off, faggot.
Garry Bryan
: SPHINX Technologies wrote:
:> Now I come back and see some serious and well-written commentary,
:> by Wholeflaffer, that is basically on target
: On target? Well, since you've been away, one thing has not changed:
: Holeflapper still provides not a single shred of proof for anything he posts.
But how does on produce proof via USENET? Any report or discovery can be
picked apart wily nily by any sceptic. . .it is not the duty of those who have
encountered alien things to prove it to others. Do your own research and make
your own conclusions, even if that conclusion is that there is nothing alien
here on earth. I couldn't even get Mr Davis to read a damn book that proved
my assertion that SETI was based on a mistaken conclusion based in science
fiction fantasy. He wouldn't even do math and discover the obvious error I
put in for him to find. . .sceptics want it sliced and diced to their
satisfaction and if you do they change their criteria. . .
:> Casual visitors to the NG are advised to do their own research
: That's correct, because nothing Holeflapper says is ever correct, nor can it
: be proven.
:> Planets are being discovered at a rapid pace.
: Not exactly. By examining the movement of certain bodies, they theorize that
: other planets exist around other stars.
Which has been distilled to the conclusion that planetary bodies exist outside
of our solar system. . .wasn't there an actual image of a planet obscuring a
distant star recently?
:> Bits of meteorite are
:> being found that even the mainstream is gradually accepting as having
:> evidence of ET life on them.
: That's absolutely incorrect. There are more doubters than believers in the
: idea that molecules found on Martian rocks show evidence of microscopic life.
But since the discovery of nanometer bacteria here on earth deep within rocks
they are being repalced by believers. . .
:> Most real scientists are now fairly certain
:> that there is other life out there.
: That is incorrect also. The odds are that something else lives out there, but
: nobody is fairly certain about anything.
There are many scientists who are certain that life exists elsewhere in the
universe, the problem is proving it. The statement, "Nobody is fairly certain
about anything" is a blanket statement that can be used to discredit ANY
scientific discovery. . .
:> Those with brain engaged are figuring
:> out that, in a universe that is estimated to be somewhere around 12 to
:> 14 Billion Earth years old, some of that life is probably quite highly
:> evolved, almost certainly billions of years beyond where we humans are
:> just now (since our planet formed what, 4.5 billion years ago?). So,
:> the only reasonable question is, "Where Are They?", and meanwhile
:> MILLIONS of us (myself not included) have SEEN them and reported them,
: Ah, see, this is a problem. Seeing UFOs does not prove ET life. You've seen
: something unidentifiable. You're really stretching it to instantly say "Must
: be from another planet."
That is just one THEORY, since nobody is fairly certain of anything. ..
Garry
Garry Bryan
: On Fri, 12 Apr 2002, The Wholeflaffer Happening wrote:
:> The plan was basically to place the burden of proof on the UFO researchers and
:> to steer the public away from the military organizations that were directly
:> involved in UFO research.
: Why would he even have to bother doing that? The burden of proof is
: _always_ on the person making the claim.
:> In this plan I deduced that the military was using the
:> media to keep these UFO researchers from making too much of the issue
:> by having the media brand them as kooks, weird, paranoid and
:> unbelievable; better yet, by having people who go around chasing after
:> shadows in a belief that UFOs are real and the government is hiding
:> something.
: Is he sugesting that UFOs aren't alien spacecraft, but just a way of
: distracting the public from the things the government is doing?
:> To date, this plan has worked well above average, and the general
:> public still has an opinion that follows what ever the media tells them.
: Of course, for a conspiracy like this to work it would have to be global
: and have the co-operation of every major country on Earth. And this
: co-operation would have to have started at the height of the cold war when
: the two superpowers were at one point just an inch from global armageddon.
: And they have to been able to maintain it for half a century.
: Seems rather unlikely doesn't it?
But the Kremlin to Washington hotline was established because of a series of
UFO sightings over Europe that each side thought were missles from the other.
I don't have the source material on hand but it is public record. . .that
development of each side detecting multiple radar targets moving back and forth
over the east of Europe and setting up the hotline kept the cold war cold.
Garry
: David Patrick
David Patrick
On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Garry Bryan wrote:
> But the Kremlin to Washington hotline was established because of a series of
> UFO sightings over Europe that each side thought were missles from the other.
> I don't have the source material on hand but it is public record. . .that
> development of each side detecting multiple radar targets moving back and forth
> over the east of Europe and setting up the hotline kept the cold war cold.
Oh sure, there was contact between the two to keep the cold war from going
hot, but they never trusted each other anywhere near enough for Flaffer's
fantasies to come true.
Radar systems always produce unexplained blips and traces, but UFO does
not mean alien space cruiser. All UFO means is an object in the sky that
is unidentified.
No detection system is perfect. When the superpowers launched satellites
to watch the enemy they often detected what looked like nuclear bursts but
they were actually meteorites blowing up in the upper atmosphere from the
stress of atmospheric entry.
David Patrick
Bob Casanova
sci.skeptic, posted by sph...@TheWorld.com (SPHINX
Technologies):
>Now this is FASCINATING! I've been away from this NG for awhile,
>largely because the sp00ks had been dragging down the intellectual
>level to a point that it wasn't much fun any more.
Tough to stick around when all those requests for evidence
keep popping up, huh?
>Now I come back and see some serious and well-written commentary,
>by Wholeflaffer, that is basically on target (except for some aspects
>he is apparently not aware of),
Really? Well, check out the thread entitled "An
Extraterrestrial Underground Grey Base Revealed!". Is this
an example of the sort of "serious and well-written
commentary" you were thinking of, or was this one of those
whose "aspects he is apparently not aware of"?
> and suddenly the sp00ks go apoplectic
>and gang up on him with low humor like this.
That's not apoplexy, that's ridicule. Considering that
nearly all of what he posts is either of the "Grey Base"
sort or consists of attacks on anyone who questions him or
asks for evidence, the ridicule seems well-deserved.
>Folks, What Is Wrong With This Picture?
Which picture? The loon's conspiracy theories, or the
general ridicule of them?
>Casual visitors to the NG are advised to do their own research, and
>not let their opinions be given to them by low-lifes who are only into
>ad hominem attacks and ridicule.
Absolutely. Don't let the ad hominem attacks and ridicule
from loons like Holeflapper keep you from doing your own
research.
<snip>
Pete Charest
wrote:
}: Seems rather unlikely doesn't it?
}
}But the Kremlin to Washington hotline was established because of a series of
}UFO sightings over Europe that each side thought were missles from the other.
}I don't have the source material on hand but it is public record. . .that
The only thing in the public record, Garrrrrrrry, is that you're a fucking
pathetic, anti-American, wanna-be hippie, dope-smoking, lying sack of shit.
That's been very well documented. I have the source material. You're an asshole.
---
Pete Charest
Truth Terrorist©
Insult yourself, I'm busy.
Garry Bryan
But these UFO's appeared to be intelligently controlled and reversed direction
in formation. . .
Garry
Garry Bryan
: On Tue, 16 Apr 2002 19:26:50 +0000 (UTC), Garry Bryan <ga...@soco.agilent.com>
: wrote:
: }: Seems rather unlikely doesn't it?
: }
: }But the Kremlin to Washington hotline was established because of a series of
: }UFO sightings over Europe that each side thought were missles from the other.
: }I don't have the source material on hand but it is public record. . .that
: The only thing in the public record, Garrrrrrrry, is that you're a fucking
: pathetic, anti-American, wanna-be hippie, dope-smoking, lying sack of shit.
So you crawled out from under your pile of dung to shake your fist at the
world again, eh little man? For the record, anyone who thinks questioning the
actions of an elite group within the government is anti-American is a narrow-
mined fascist with delusions of grandeur. . .oh, and you're ugly too. . .
Garry
jeff george
has no facts. He says things like "the latest polls indicate..." and "at this late
date, it is well-konwn that there is ongoing contact with alien life...." and so
on. Really? There's ongoing contact? No, it's now well-known. And if you ask him
about that, he goes nutty and says that "we should all do our own research" and
"your security clearance is obviously not god enough," as if HE has one.
So that's what I was saying. He's full of crap.
Garry Bryan wrote:
> In alt.alien.visitors jeff george <whiz...@interacccesss.com> wrote:
> : SPHINX Technologies wrote:
>
> :> Now I come back and see some serious and well-written commentary,
> :> by Wholeflaffer, that is basically on target
>
> : On target? Well, since you've been away, one thing has not changed:
> : Holeflapper still provides not a single shred of proof for anything he posts.
>
> But how does on produce proof via USENET? Any report or discovery can be
> picked apart wily nily by any sceptic. . .it is not the duty of those who have
> encountered alien things to prove it to others.
Not quite. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
> Do your own research and make
> your own conclusions,
C'mon. If the idiot claimed "robots are stealing my luggage," how are you going to
do research on that? You have to start with a reasonable premise. He starts with
wild fantasy.
David Patrick
That's a very subjective judgement and it does not get away from the basic
fact that the limitations of the radar system suggest that these blips
were never really there.
If you've got any links that show evidence that suggests otherwise I'd be
interested to see it.
David Patrick
Pete Charest
wrote:
}In alt.alien.visitors Pete Charest <pchar...@spamspringmind.com> wrote:
}: On Tue, 16 Apr 2002 19:26:50 +0000 (UTC), Garry Bryan
<ga...@soco.agilent.com>
}: wrote:
}
}
}: }: Seems rather unlikely doesn't it?
}: }
}: }But the Kremlin to Washington hotline was established because of a series of
}: }UFO sightings over Europe that each side thought were missles from the
other.
}: }I don't have the source material on hand but it is public record. . .that
}
}: The only thing in the public record, Garrrrrrrry, is that you're a fucking
}: pathetic, anti-American, wanna-be hippie, dope-smoking, lying sack of shit.
}
}So you crawled out from under your pile of dung to shake your fist at the
}world again, eh little man? For the record, anyone who thinks questioning the
}actions of an elite group within the government is anti-American is a narrow-
}mined fascist with delusions of grandeur. . .oh, and you're ugly too. . .
Gotcha.
1. I post more regularly than you do.
2. Calling you stupid is not shaking one's fist.
3. You are not the world. You are an insignificant pissant.
Oh...and did I mention? Gotcha.
hugh
Harlow Campbell wrote:
Trick question, Artie cant change a light bulb
John Lewis
<ga...@soco.agilent.com> wrote:
>: Of course, for a conspiracy like this to work it would have to be global
>: and have the co-operation of every major country on Earth. And this
>: co-operation would have to have started at the height of the cold war when
>: the two superpowers were at one point just an inch from global armageddon.
>: And they have to been able to maintain it for half a century.
>
>: Seems rather unlikely doesn't it?
>
>But the Kremlin to Washington hotline was established because of a series of
>UFO sightings over Europe that each side thought were missles from the other.
>I don't have the source material on hand but it is public record. . .that
>development of each side detecting multiple radar targets moving back and forth
>over the east of Europe and setting up the hotline kept the cold war cold.
>
>Garry
HAHAHAHAhahahah!
Garry, you are in serious need of a standard US History text!
Widely documented, the Hotline between Washington and Moscow was
established one year after the Cuban Missile Crisis.
That confrontation, over the presence of Soviet missiles in Cuba,
brought the world to the brink of nuclear conflict. After diplomacy
prevailed, both sides were shaken by the realization of how close they
had come to annihilation -- and at how primitive their direct
communication methods had been. For example, during the tensest
moments of the crisis, Anatoly Dobrynin, the Soviet ambassador to
Washington, was forced to rely on a bicycle courier to pick up his
urgent messages to Moscow and pedal them over to the local Western
Union office.
No UFO connection at all, Garry. None.
All easily researched public record, too.
John Lewis
<ga...@soco.agilent.com> wrote:
>In alt.alien.visitors jeff george <whiz...@interacccesss.com> wrote:
>: SPHINX Technologies wrote:
>
>:> Now I come back and see some serious and well-written commentary,
>:> by Wholeflaffer, that is basically on target
>
>: On target? Well, since you've been away, one thing has not changed:
>: Holeflapper still provides not a single shred of proof for anything he posts.
>
>But how does on produce proof via USENET? Any report or discovery can be
>picked apart wily nily by any sceptic. . .it is not the duty of those who have
>encountered alien things to prove it to others.
Well, yes it is--if they expect their claim to be believed. He that
makes the claim is the one who has the burden of proof.
The more extraordinary the claim, the more extraordinary the proof
must be to substantiate it.
>Do your own research and make your own conclusions, even if
>that conclusion is that there is nothing alien here on earth.
And that's the problem, Garry; using Occam's Razor, the *is* nothing
alien here on Earth.
>
>:> Planets are being discovered at a rapid pace.
>
>: Not exactly. By examining the movement of certain bodies, they theorize that
>: other planets exist around other stars.
>
>Which has been distilled to the conclusion that planetary bodies exist outside
>of our solar system. . .wasn't there an actual image of a planet obscuring a
>distant star recently?
That's a far cry from the original premise of 'Planets are being
discovered at a rapid pace', isn't it? Conclusions aren't the same as
discoveries last time I checked.
>:> Bits of meteorite are
>:> being found that even the mainstream is gradually accepting as having
>:> evidence of ET life on them.
>
>: That's absolutely incorrect. There are more doubters than believers in the
>: idea that molecules found on Martian rocks show evidence of microscopic life.
>
>But since the discovery of nanometer bacteria here on earth deep within rocks
>they are being repalced by believers. . .
Cites please. Specifically peer-reviewed articles from someone who has
reversed their opinion based on the above.
Mark Shippey
> Well, yes it is--if they expect their claim to be believed. He that
> makes the claim is the one who has the burden of proof.
This obvious point has been pointed out over and over. Why is it
so hard for them to understand? Could it be that they know it is
a simple truth, and they have no proof to show? So they do the
old..... "You prove that I have to have proof" shuffle.
Sire ARthur C. B. Wholefaffers A.S.A.
says...
>If you've got any links that show evidence that suggests otherwise I'd be
>interested to see it.
>
>David Patrick
For someone who calls himself interested, you have demonstrated
zero knowledge on any aspect of the alien presence.
You are beginning to look like either a low-level
spOOk or a useful idiot. I'd bet on both of them!!!
Have you read any of the books that you claimed
to have sent for? I have proven
that you are here to disrupt these groups.
- - -
Science, Secrecy, and Ufology By Richard M. Dolan
Secrecy permeates the UFO field. What does this mean for Ufology as a science?
Answer: the field cannot really be handled scientifically within the public
domain. The great model is the Manhattan Project. When a project is undertaken
at highly classified levels, you will find nothing of value about it within the
mainstream. This was true during the development of the atomic bomb in the
1940s; it is true regarding the UFO.
Missing the Obvious
Some thing are so obvious that they are invisible.
Segments of the intelligence community have been intensely interested in UFOs
since the problem emerged after World War Two. Moreover, they have monitored and
infiltrated the UFO field. Conversely, the "mainstream" (as opposed to
"classified") scientific community has ignored UFOs altogether. Ask yourself a
simple question: why this discrepancy?
What passes for Ufology has spun its wheels for fifty years. Not only have even
its most important researchers been unable to force recognition of the problem
by official powers (not very surprising, after all), but some of these same
researchers have not even taken a definite stand on what UFOs might represent.
That is, they have been working without a hypothesis (!) and so in many cases
have merely piled up sighting after sighting for years and years, and then
expected this pile of "evidence" to do the trick. But in any intellectual
endeavor, piling up evidence is never enough. The researcher has to organize and
analyze the evidence through hypothesis or supposition. Without this effort,
there is no research, only what Gore Vidal calls "scholarly squirreling" of data
in a hole in a hollow tree. What can we say about such researchers, some of whom
having been in the field for decades, or even in some cases, generations? What
have they been doing?
A young innocent who wants to learn more about this topic - a subject of the
utmost seriousness and importance - can easily become bewildered by the
confusion. Should one side with Klass, Shaeffer, and Korff, or Hynek, Ruppelt,
and Keyhoe, or Friedman, or Randall? Does one follow the line of the
conservative J. Allen Hynek Center of UFO Studies (CUFOS), the paranormal
leanings of MUFON, or the coverup themes of UFO Magazine? On the Internet,
should one haunt the tepid world of listserves like Project 1947 or UFO Updates,
or dive right into John Greenwald's Black Vault?
Four centuries ago, Rene Descartes established a very simple principle of
knowledge: one must create a strong skeleton -that is, a foundation of
unquestionable facts - and build an edifice upon it.
So let us be Cartesian, and review the obvious.
Secrecy and the National Security Crowd
In 1946, a year before the great deluge of reports here in the states, Americans
monitored "ghost rockets" over Europe. Two prominent American generals conferred
with the Swedes, and censorship over the Swedish press followed. The Greek Army
also investigated, according to Dr. Paul Santorini, a key scientist in the
development of the atomic bomb. The Greeks concluded the objects were not
Soviet, nor were they missiles. The American military then pressured them into
silence.
In 1947, UFOs appeared over American skies in large numbers. Some incidents were
quite serious, such as the repeated violation of air space over the Oak Ridge
Nuclear Facility. Oak Ridge housed some of the most sophisticated technology in
the world and was highly classified: one did not simply fly over there. Yet Army
Intelligence and the FBI monitored dozens of intrusions over Oak Ridge well into
the 1950s. Similar violations occurred over sensitive places in LosAlamos,
Hanford, and many military bases. All of this was classified, of course.
Americans knew nothing about them at the time.
In a classified memo, General Nathan Twining wrote of the possibility - based on
the careful evaluation of military personnel - that "some of the objects are
controlled." Controlled by whom was the $64,000 question, and America's national
security establishment set out to answer it, far removed from the prying eyes of
the public. In 1949, an FBI memo stated that: "Army intelligence has recently
said that the matter of 'unidentified aircraft' or 'unidentified aerial
phenomena' ... is considered top secret by intelligence officers of both the
Army and the Air Forces."
In 1950, Robert Sarbacher, a physicist with the DOD Research & Development
Board, privately told Canadian official Wilbert Smith that UFOs were "the most
highly classified subject in the U.S. government."
After an extraordinary UFO encounter near Fort Monmouth, New Jersey in 1951, Air
Force officer Edward Ruppelt attended a two-hour meeting chaired by General
Charles Cabell, the Director of Air Force Intelligence (and later Deputy CIA
Director). The meeting was recorded, but the tape "was so hot that it was later
destroyed. . . . to be conservative, it didn't exactly follow the tone of the
official Air Force releases." The CIA, meanwhile, had monitored the problem
since at least 1948. After the UFO wave of 1952, the Agency sponsored the
Robertson Panel, which convened in January 1953 - the final weekend of the
Truman presidency. The panel debunked UFOs, and its recommendations resulted in
the gutting of Project Blue Book (already a public relations burden) and
heightened surveillance of civilian UFO organizations.
Clearly, this was an issue considered to be of the utmost seriousness. As a
result, it was not a topic ordinary citizens could simply waltz into and get
easy answers. Observe what happened to the most dangerous of all civilian
organizations: the National Investigative Committee on Aerial Phenomena (NICAP).
Founded in 1956 with the goal of ending UFO secrecy, it was quickly and secretly
infiltrated by "ex-CIA" officers involved in CIA psychological warfare
operations. The most important of them, Colonel Joseph Bryan, was the key player
in the ouster of Director Donald Keyhoe in 1969. A succession of CIA men then
ran NICAP into the ground. Needless to say, no one outside the Agency knew of
their CIA connections.
One might complain this was all a long time ago. Does the military still take
UFOs seriously? Does the intelligence community still infiltrate UFO
organizations? After all, if UFOs are still important, then intelligence
operatives would presumably still need to monitor and influence the key
organizations. Is there any reason to believe this is so? In a word, yes. The
military still encounters UFOs, as many reports continue to prove. Moreover,
secrecy orders about UFOs remain in effect. In 1975, the late Senator Barry
Goldwater stated that UFOs were still classified "above Top Secret." As one of
my Navy acquaintances recently said to me: "If I were to tell you what I knew
about that subject, I would probably go to prison."
In the mid-1980s, UFO researcher William Moore admitted to working covertly with
the intelligence world, to the shock and dismay of his colleagues. But stuff
like this is surely the tip of a large iceberg. Ufology is dominated by men and
women connected to the world of intelligence, usually through prior experience
in the military or CIA. Why is this so? What does it mean to Ufology that this
is the case? It is a question I will return to - more than once, I suspect - in
future articles.
Science
Throughout history, people have used outdated concepts to think about the world,
especially during periods of rapid change. It's unavoidable. We remain wedded to
the concepts we learned in our youth, while reality races ahead. Observe our
cultural attitudes toward science. Science, we were taught, is a bastion, indeed
the foundation, of intellectual freedom in the world. It is an independent
search for truth, and the destroyer of social and religious myths.
How independent is science? In whose interest is it practiced today? This is no
idle question, for gone are the days of scientists following their intellectual
passions in a search for truth. Earlier this year, James Lovelock, a pioneer in
environmental science now in his eighties, had this to say: Nearly all
scientists are employed by some large organization, such as a governmental
department, a university, or a multinational company. Only rarely are they free
to express their science as a personal view. They may think that they are free,
but in reality they are, nearly all of them, employees; they have traded freedom
of thought for good working conditions, a steady income, tenure, and a pension.
Science is an expensive business, and you need sponsorship. I laughed out loud
when a sincere and interested reader of my book asked me who sponsored my
research. But, he is a scientist, for whom such a thing is absolutely necessary.
Reflect on the following:
1. Since the Second World War, the military has been by far the biggest sponsor
of scientific work.
2. The military and intelligence community has exhibited extreme levels of
interest in the UFO phenomenon, and high levels of classification have enveloped
the subject.
3. It would seem logical that the military has sponsored classified - that is,
secret - scientific work on this problem for many years.
4. In public, however, mainstream scientists offer nothing more than ridicule or
scorn upon the topic of UFOs.
Like any other segment of our civilization, scientists follow the money. If the
cash is there, so are they; if not, forget about it. If, as I believe, the vast
sponsorship of UFO research is classified, we will not hear positive statements
about the subject from the mainstream. Moreover, the extreme specialization of
science ensures that mavericks do not stray into the uncharted seas of UFO
research. The result is widespread ignorance by scientists of even the basics of
the UFO phenomenon. At least, this is so within the non-classified, mainstream
areas of research. In the classified world, we can only surmise, but we can do
so based on some facts.
We know without question that within the first few years of the appearance of
UFOs, many top-flight scientists became involved in some way with this
phenomenon - in every case at the classified level. By no means exhaustive, here
are some of the more noteworthies: Lloyd Berkner, Edward Teller, Detlev Bronk,
Vannevar Bush, David Sarnoff, Thornton Page, H. P. Robertson, Allen Hynek, and
Lincoln La Paz. In the case of Bush and Bronk, the connection has not been
proven to the satisfaction of some skeptics, but even in their case, the
evidence remains strong. For the rest, the case is open-and-shut. These men were
some of the elite power scientists in the world, and intimately connected with
the American defense establishment. And yet, we find them looking at UFO
reports. Of course, let us not forget Harvard astronomer and UFO debunker
extraordinaire, Donald Menzel, who, unbeknownst to the world, was deeply
involved with the American intelligence community, in particular the
super-secret National Security Agency.
One supposes that we shall have to wait another few decades to learn about our
contemporaries - in other words, long after the issue becomes moot. Such
secrecy, we realize, is not unique to UFOs. It is standard operating procedure.
We learn the truth after it becomes irrelevant.
The Great Secrecy Model
As was stated above, when a project is undertaken at highly classified levels,
you will find nothing of value about it within the mainstream. The primordial
example is the Manhattan Project. Here was an undertaking of such magnitude that
secrecy was of paramount importance. How to design and build an atomic bomb
without the enemy knowing? It is, of course, a multifarious question. One of the
answers, however, was to hide the knowledge from Congress itself - despite the
fact that it involved unprecedented outlays of money. Amazingly, the plan
succeeded.
In fact, when scientists detonated a nuclear bomb at Los Alamos on July 16,
1945, the most spectacular and ominous event in the history of science, no one
outside that small classified circle knew a thing. Consider the implications.
The work was done in a secrecy so profound that the mainstream scientific
literature had nothing of import to say about nuclear technology. The
information was too sensitive to discuss openly.
Significantly, though the Manhattan Project remained secret from the public, it
was not secret from the Soviets, who had penetrated the American defense and
scientific establishment, and used data from the project to build an atomic bomb
years ahead of schedule. This pattern, in fact, recurred throughout the Cold
War: more often than not, the American public was kept in the dark about black
projects more successfully than were the Soviet authorities. Many times, it was
they and not the Soviets who were the true target of secrecy - for instance, in
such cases as the U-2 flyovers or mind control experiments.
Thus, the Manhattan Project possesses staggering historical importance for so
many reasons, not the least of which is that it has served as a model ever since
for conducting expensive and covert operations. Hiding the money, keeping the
real talk classified, and steering the public discussion- all of these were
successfully tackled by the national security world of the 1940s. If it's
important, it's probably secret. This was true during the development of the
atomic bomb in the 1940s; it is almost certainly true regarding the UFO.
Implications
Those of us without a "need to know" about UFOs can still learn a few things.
Enough information exists within the public realm that we can put many of the
pieces together. It is, frankly, what I have tried to do in my recent study.
Do the math. For more than fifty years, millions of people have experienced a
global phenomenon from agencies unknown, possessing what appears to be fantastic
technology. We have on record hundreds of military UFO encounters and reports,
with undoubted interest and infiltration by the intelligence world. Compound
this with disturbingly strong claims of abduction (and even worse) on the part
of these others, and you have powerful reasons for abject silence on the part of
our erstwhile leaders. The math is not higher calculus. No, it is simple
addition, and when you add it up the conclusion is forced: this is a
fundamentally covert event of awesome magnitude.
But we should not fool ourselves into thinking that we can "get to the bottom"
of this. That is, as mere citizens of what some would call an oligarchic empire
that masquerades as a democracy, we are unlikely to get official confirmation
regarding something as important as an alien presence. And even if we did get
such "confirmation," could we truly depend on the accuracy and completeness of
the information? I think you know the answer.
Knowledge may give us an edge in some way. Or, our situation may more closely
match the American natives of 500 years ago. Either way, we on the outside are
on our own where this phenomenon is concerned, and it behooves us to become as
educated about it as we can. Otherwise, we experience our fate - for good or ill
- in the dark.
---------------------
---------------------
Last year, I published a book which has received a fair amount of critical
acclaim. This is: UFOs and the National Security State: An Unclassified History.
Volume One, 1941 to 1973 Anyone interested in reading 40 pages of this book,
along with various articles, can check my website at
http://keyholepublishing.com
I am always happy to engage in serious and honest discussion about this topic.
Rich Dolan
David Patrick
On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Sire ARthur C. B. Wholefaffers A.S.A. wrote:
> In article <Pine.GSO.3.96.1020416233520.14459A-100000@sumb1>, David Patrick
> says...
>
> >If you've got any links that show evidence that suggests otherwise I'd be
> >interested to see it.
> >
> >David Patrick
>
> For someone who calls himself interested, you have demonstrated
> zero knowledge on any aspect of the alien presence.
I'm aware of many aspects of UFOlogy and I have read many books and
articles on the subject. I'm particularly interested in cases that are
fairly local to me such as the Rendlesham case and the Berkshire Triangle
ships case.
Any attempt by me to actually _discuss_ any case with you has been met
with insults and stalling. Do you want to discuss either of the above
cases?
> You are beginning to look like either a low-level
> spOOk or a useful idiot. I'd bet on both of them!!!
The scientific method demands you show evidence for any claim you make.
You have a habit of making wild claims and then refusing to back any of it
up.
Take the air-traffic controller's story which is a classic case. No name,
no way of checking the claims made in the story, no supporting evidence.
Any attempt to ask for information or questioning of apparent
inconsistancies in the story are met with abuse and evasion. Look, I'll
show you.
Who was this anonymous air-traffic controller and how did you get his
story?
Now you will not answer that question. So either you're withholding
evidence and is therefore against the truth getting out, or you're a
hoaxer and don't actually have the information.
> Have you read any of the books that you claimed
> to have sent for?
One is still on order, I can't get the other, though I am still looking.
> I have proven
> that you are here to disrupt these groups.
Really? When?
I asked you to prove it, but you just evaded the question. Link to the
post that proved I was here to 'disrupt these groups'.
David Patrick
Carl Wilson
<ga...@soco.agilent.com> wrote:
[...]
>
>But the Kremlin to Washington hotline was established because of a series of
>UFO sightings over Europe that each side thought were missles from the other.
"The hot line came into being one year after the Cuban Missile Crisis.
That confrontation, over the presence of Soviet missiles in Cuba,
brought the world to the brink of nuclear conflict. After diplomacy
and cooler heads prevailed, both sides were shaken by the realization
of how close they had come to annihilation -- and at how primitive
their direct communication methods had been. For example, during the
tensest moments of the crisis, Anatoly Dobrynin, the Soviet ambassador
to Washington, was forced to rely on a bicycle courier to pick up his
urgent messages to Moscow and pedal them over to the local Western
Union office."
"After the crisis passed, President John F. Kennedy suggested the hot
line to the Soviets. Contrary to popular myth and Hollywood portrayal,
the hot line has never been a pair of red telephones, one in a drawer
in the Oval Office, the other in the Kremlin. At first it was a set of
teletypes with messages punched in at a rate of about one page every
three minutes. That system was replaced in the late 1970s with two
satellite systems, as well as an undersea cable link."
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/cold.war/episodes/10/spotlight/
Once again a UFO kook re-writes history....
Carl Wilson
<ga...@soco.agilent.com> wrote:
>But the Kremlin to Washington hotline was established because of a series of
>UFO sightings over Europe that each side thought were missles from the other.
Archived for future reference.
http://www.kook-watch.net/archive/archive-62.html
f4c3411
which is "nothing of value"? You must post 50-100 posts every couple
days.
If it's so obviously "nothing of value", wouldn't you want to just
ignore it and try to find something useful to do with the precious
moments that you have left to be alive?
Does your bumper sticker say "I'd rather be trolling" or what?
Mark Shippey <cap...@anti-grey.net> wrote in message news:<3cb9c...@news.vic.com>...
> The Wholeflaffer Troll wrote:
>
> > The debunker/troll never asks a worthwhile
> > question:
>
> But Wholeflaffer, you told us that there is "nothing of
> value" in mainstream UFOlogy in another posts. So if you
> post nothing of value, and it is all worthless crap, then
> what worthwhile question can be asked? Maybe.......
>
> How many Wholeflaffers does it take to change a light bulb?
Mark Shippey
> Why do you invest so much of your time and energy debunking something
> which is "nothing of value"? You must post 50-100 posts every couple
> days.
I popst off and on for fun, and to watch monkeys like you
dance for the organ grinder.
Auto Responder
You as well. Idiot.
Mark Shippey
> On 17 Apr 2002 18:37:36 -0400, Mark Shippey <cap...@anti-grey.net> wrote:
>>f4c3411 <fac...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> Why do you invest so much of your time and energy debunking something
>>> which is "nothing of value"? You must post 50-100 posts every couple
>>> days.
>>
>> I post off and on for fun, and to watch monkeys like you
>>dance for the organ grinder.
> You as well. Idiot.
Kook.
Auto Responder
Mother fucker.
Mark Shippey
> On 17 Apr 2002 19:23:38 -0400, Mark Shippey <cap...@anti-grey.net> wrote:
>>Auto Responder <sp...@me.not> wrote:
>>> On 17 Apr 2002 18:37:36 -0400, Mark Shippey <cap...@anti-grey.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>f4c3411 <fac...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Why do you invest so much of your time and energy debunking something
>>>>> which is "nothing of value"? You must post 50-100 posts every couple
>>>>> days.
>>>>
>>>> I post off and on for fun, and to watch monkeys like you
>>>>dance for the organ grinder.
>>
>>> You as well. Idiot.
>>
>> Kook.
> Mother fucker.
Kook to the tenth power.
Wally Anglesea™
wrote:
When her husband ran out on her, did he *run* or walk? MY guess, he
got away as fast as his legs could carry him.
--
http://users.bigpond.net.au/wanglese/Alien_recipes.html
"You can't fool me, it's turtles all the way down."
Auto Responder
Mother fucker
Auto Responder
<wang...@spbigpondam.net.au> wrote:
>On 17 Apr 2002 19:30:37 -0400, Mark Shippey <cap...@anti-grey.net>
>wrote:
>
>>Auto Responder <sp...@me.not> wrote:
>>> On 17 Apr 2002 19:23:38 -0400, Mark Shippey <cap...@anti-grey.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>Auto Responder <sp...@me.not> wrote:
>>>>> On 17 Apr 2002 18:37:36 -0400, Mark Shippey <cap...@anti-grey.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>f4c3411 <fac...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Why do you invest so much of your time and energy debunking something
>>>>>>> which is "nothing of value"? You must post 50-100 posts every couple
>>>>>>> days.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I post off and on for fun, and to watch monkeys like you
>>>>>>dance for the organ grinder.
>>>>
>>>>> You as well. Idiot.
>>>>
>>>> Kook.
>>
>>> Mother fucker.
>>
>> Kook to the tenth power.
>
>When her husband ran out on her, did he *run* or walk? MY guess, he
>got away as fast as his legs could carry him.
Nope. He was mind fucked.
Auto Responder
<wang...@spbigpondam.net.au> wrote:
>On 17 Apr 2002 19:30:37 -0400, Mark Shippey <cap...@anti-grey.net>
>wrote:
>
>>Auto Responder <sp...@me.not> wrote:
>>> On 17 Apr 2002 19:23:38 -0400, Mark Shippey <cap...@anti-grey.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>Auto Responder <sp...@me.not> wrote:
>>>>> On 17 Apr 2002 18:37:36 -0400, Mark Shippey <cap...@anti-grey.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>f4c3411 <fac...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Why do you invest so much of your time and energy debunking something
>>>>>>> which is "nothing of value"? You must post 50-100 posts every couple
>>>>>>> days.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I post off and on for fun, and to watch monkeys like you
>>>>>>dance for the organ grinder.
>>>>
>>>>> You as well. Idiot.
>>>>
>>>> Kook.
>>
>>> Mother fucker.
>>
>> Kook to the tenth power.
>
>When her husband ran out on her, did he *run* or walk? MY guess, he
>got away as fast as his legs could carry him.
Nope. He was mind fucked.
Auto Responder
<wang...@spbigpondam.net.au> wrote:
>On 17 Apr 2002 19:30:37 -0400, Mark Shippey <cap...@anti-grey.net>
>wrote:
>
>>Auto Responder <sp...@me.not> wrote:
>>> On 17 Apr 2002 19:23:38 -0400, Mark Shippey <cap...@anti-grey.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>Auto Responder <sp...@me.not> wrote:
>>>>> On 17 Apr 2002 18:37:36 -0400, Mark Shippey <cap...@anti-grey.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>f4c3411 <fac...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Why do you invest so much of your time and energy debunking something
>>>>>>> which is "nothing of value"? You must post 50-100 posts every couple
>>>>>>> days.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I post off and on for fun, and to watch monkeys like you
>>>>>>dance for the organ grinder.
>>>>
>>>>> You as well. Idiot.
>>>>
>>>> Kook.
>>
>>> Mother fucker.
>>
>> Kook to the tenth power.
>
>When her husband ran out on her, did he *run* or walk? MY guess, he
>got away as fast as his legs could carry him.
Nope. He was mind fucked.
Wally Anglesea™
Well, probably because it would have been too distasteful to do it the
normal way with you huh?
Auto Responder
<wang...@spbigpondam.net.au> wrote:
Ask the State Department-- their remote viewers know what sex with him was
like. They were the ones who did the mind job on him.
Auto Responder
Oh, and "Shippey" is with the State Department. So is Dr. P. Alice, Twonky,
Glass and others.
Who do you work for? Eh? You work for the CIA or the State Department?
Mark Shippey
> Ask the State Department-- their remote viewers know what sex with him was
> like. They were the ones who did the mind job on him.
Do have even the slightest idea of the actual function of the
State Department is?
Mark Shippey
> Mother fucker
Mental Disneyland inhabitant
Auto Responder
Yeah, fuck with people's minds internationally.
Knock it off. I know the whole thing. Don't piss me off too much or I'll
start naming names right here.
Okay, asshole.
Auto Responder
State Department mother fucker.
Mark Shippey
> Oh, and "Shippey" is with the State Department. So is Dr. P. Alice, Twonky,
> Glass and others.
> Who do you work for? Eh? You work for the CIA or the State Department?
Bwhahahaha! This gets old so fast. What happened to all your "plonks"
kook. The actual truth is, I'm just own a small printing company. Don't
even have any Federal printing. So, what in your warped fantasy is my
and the other's postions in the SD?
Wally Anglesea™
I'm in Australia. I work for the sekrit guvmint agency that watches
you.
Hint:You really think that you know the names of *all* of the
government agencies?
Secondly, I notice you seem to have a split brain, since you cannot
resist sending 2 or 3 different replies to the same messages that
others post. When did you have this operation?
Wally Anglesea™
meltdowwwwwwnnnnnnnnnnnnn................
Mark Shippey
> Okay, asshole.
What is the "whole thing"?
Mark Shippey
> State Department mother fucker.
Sticks and stones can break by bones but names can never hurt
me! Where did you dig up this bizarre fantasy that I work for the
SD? If you ask them, they will tell you don't work for them. Would
you then claim I am undercover? Bwhahaha! This is truly wierd.
Mark Shippey
> I'm in Australia. I work for the sekrit guvmint agency that watches
> you.
> Hint:You really think that you know the names of *all* of the
> government agencies?
Hi Wally.
Most of these kooks don't know the names of the real sekrit
departments. For example, I will bet that not a one can tell us
what the "Department Of Coverups & Obfuscation" (DCO) really does,
or where it is located. And that is an easy one. I can guarantee
that none of them can tell a thing about the UBCDHQ. Watch. And
they think they know so many secrets. Heh.
Auto Responder
Liar.
Auto Responder
<wang...@spbigpondam.net.au> wrote:
You're in Maryland.
> I work for the sekrit guvmint agency that watches
>you.
Yeah.
Auto Responder
<wang...@spbigpondam.net.au> wrote:
>On Thu, 18 Apr 2002 00:20:01 GMT, sp...@me.not (Auto Responder) wrote:
>
>>On 17 Apr 2002 20:17:26 -0400, Mark Shippey <cap...@anti-grey.net> wrote:
>>
>>>Auto Responder <sp...@me.not> wrote:
>>>> Ask the State Department-- their remote viewers know what sex with him was
>>>> like. They were the ones who did the mind job on him.
>>>
>>> Do have even the slightest idea of the actual function of the
>>>State Department is?
>>
>>Yeah, fuck with people's minds internationally.
>>
>>Knock it off. I know the whole thing. Don't piss me off too much or I'll
>>start naming names right here.
>>
>>Okay, asshole.
>
>
> meltdowwwwwwnnnnnnnnnnnnn................
Actually, I'm going to develop a web page and put it all there.
Auto Responder
>Auto Responder <sp...@me.not> wrote:
>> On 17 Apr 2002 20:17:26 -0400, Mark Shippey <cap...@anti-grey.net> wrote:
>
>>>Auto Responder <sp...@me.not> wrote:
>>>> Ask the State Department-- their remote viewers know what sex with him was
>>>> like. They were the ones who did the mind job on him.
>>>
>>> Do have even the slightest idea of the actual function of the
>>>State Department is?
>
>> Yeah, fuck with people's minds internationally.
>
>> Knock it off. I know the whole thing. Don't piss me off too much or I'll
>> start naming names right here.
>
>> Okay, asshole.
>
> What is the "whole thing"?
Oh, you're the expert -- you explain yourself.
Auto Responder
>Auto Responder <sp...@me.not> wrote:
>> State Department mother fucker.
>
> Sticks and stones can break by bones but names can never hurt
>me!
Of course not. You have no conscience.
Auto Responder
You'd do anything to cover your own ass. You don't care who you hurt or how
many lives you ruin.
What goes around comes around.
You married Mark? How would you like some government remote viewer to
use your wife for sexual kicks, eh? How would you like your family totally
busted up?
Oh, never mind. You don't care. You can't. It's all about power, money
and control. You work for control freaks.
Wally Anglesea™
Awesome, don't forget to name me, kook.
Auto Responder
<wang...@spbigpondam.net.au> wrote:
>On Thu, 18 Apr 2002 02:43:55 GMT, sp...@me.not (Auto Responder) wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 18 Apr 2002 00:33:51 GMT, Wally Anglesea™
>><wang...@spbigpondam.net.au> wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 18 Apr 2002 00:20:01 GMT, sp...@me.not (Auto Responder) wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 17 Apr 2002 20:17:26 -0400, Mark Shippey <cap...@anti-grey.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Auto Responder <sp...@me.not> wrote:
>>>>>> Ask the State Department-- their remote viewers know what sex with him was
>>>>>> like. They were the ones who did the mind job on him.
>>>>>
>>>>> Do have even the slightest idea of the actual function of the
>>>>>State Department is?
>>>>
>>>>Yeah, fuck with people's minds internationally.
>>>>
>>>>Knock it off. I know the whole thing. Don't piss me off too much or I'll
>>>>start naming names right here.
>>>>
>>>>Okay, asshole.
>>>
>>>
>>> meltdowwwwwwnnnnnnnnnnnnn................
>>
>>Actually, I'm going to develop a web page and put it all there.
>
>
>Awesome, don't forget to name me, kook.
I'll tell it all.
Wally Anglesea™
144.137.100.247 is in Maryland? Awesome, kook.
>
>> I work for the sekrit guvmint agency that watches
>>you.
>
>Yeah.
--
Wally Anglesea™
I thought we were *plonked*. Go figure, an obsessive personality
disordered kook. Now how many of those have I seen.
If you go to your shrink, he'll explain what your compulsions are, and
what OPD is. It *is* treatable, kook.
Auto Responder
<wang...@spbigpondam.net.au> wrote:
[...]
>>>I'm in Australia.
>>
>>You're in Maryland.
>
>144.137.100.247 is in Maryland? Awesome, kook.
The headers and the IPs in these newsgroups mean NOTHING.
You guys are in Maryland.
Auto Responder
<wang...@spbigpondam.net.au> wrote:
Uh hua. Abusive statements and actions are your only method of
coverup on the Newsgroups.
You don't care how many lies you have to tell or how many people you have to
hurt to cover your own ass.
Mark Shippey
> Liar.
Nutcase.