::: Should Saucers Spin? :::
Blue Resonant Human
by Martin Kottmeyer
[From Magonia ETH Bulletin #23, January 2000]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
EDITORIAL
This issue is devoted to Martin Kottmeyer's presentation of yet more
evidence showing how cultural influences, particularly, science fiction
films, affect the descriptions given by UFO witnesses. Kottmeyer and
others who use the psychosocial hypothesis constantly produce evidence
to support their ideas, whereas the ETH proponents can produce only
cranky ideas about magnetic, anti-gravity or interdimensional saucers,
accompanied by a constant whining about "sceptics" and "debunkers" (not
to mention "armchair ufologists" and "pelicanists").
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Should saucers spin?
Many do. Most do not. There is no consistency in the matter. Some whirl
madly. Some rotate slowly. Seen from below, they rotate counter-
clockwise more often than clockwise, but not universally. (1) Some
manage to spin both ways at once; the outer rim goes one way while the
centre section turns the opposite way. (2) Sometimes the rim spins and
the centre stays still, but there is also a case where the centre spun
with the rim staying still. (3)
The inconsistency has bothered nobody, but it seems like it should. The
natural assumption concerning the spinning of saucers is that it would
be necessary for their propulsion. Yet most saucer reports don't show
evidence of spinning. A non-spinning saucer would probably be more
useful. It is hard to imagine anybody functioning very well in a
spinning saucer. The prospect of aliens emerging from a saucer
disoriented and puking their guts out veers into the area of slapstick
and visceral disbelief. Yet if saucers can propel themselves and
function without spinning, why should any of them spin? What purpose is
served in those that do spin?
The idea that saucers spin did not originate directly from the Kenneth
Arnold report. Arnold's report shows a bilaterally symmetrical craft
that travels in the direction of the axis of symmetry. He mentions
nothing about them spinning. The news stories about his sighting erred
in calling the objects saucers, but did not compound it with any talk
about spinning. They travelled very fast, waved in and out of
formation, and were on a course between Mount Rainier and Mount Adams.
This last suggested a horizontal trajectory.
Despite this, reports of spinning saucers turn up immediately and
repeatedly in the reports of the 1947 Wave. There are at least 37 cases
of people describing spinning, whirling, or twirling saucers among the
853 reports collected by Ted Bloecher. (4) There is good reason to
believe that there was probably no imitation involved in this. They
seem randomly distributed across the nation and are all minor cases
with local news dissemination. Percentage-wise we are dealing with 4%
of the reports. It is easy to guess why they arose. It seems an
elementary elaboration inherent in our conception of the behaviour of
round objects such as saucers and discs. When a person flings a plate
or saucer into the air, you usually give it a spin so it travels
farther. Round objects often possess the property of spinning: wheels
spin, records spin, balls spin. It seems a natural generalisation and
probably an inevitability in a population of UFO reports.
The paradox that spinning brings to saucers as intelligently piloted
craft only emerges on conscious reflection. It took about two and a
half years before a report turned up that resolved this paradox by
having a craft that has the pilot in a stationary centre cabin while
the outer rim moves. On 15 March 1950 Dr Craig Hunter, near Penfield,
Pennsylvania, has a close encounter with a "radical new warplane".
Though it has a slowly spinning ring visible on the underside, the
centre cabin and outer edge are stationary. Critics noted the drawing
was suspiciously similar to a drawing in a speculative article on
saucer propulsion by Commander Robert B. McLaughlin for True. Hunter
denied seeing the True article and this need not be untrue. (5) From
the vantage of decades later, one can, however, say the two creations
share the look of their era. Craft identical to Hunter's and
McLaughlin's simply don't appear today. The idea of the stationary
cabin, however, made good sense and is a property of UFOs that
recurrently turns up afterwards on UFOs of different styles.
A flashier elaboration on the idea of spinning saucers combined the
spinning with a common presumption of the era that jets or rockets
propelled saucers. In this variant the jets generate the spinning with
exhaust flames swirling out of the rim of the craft like a pinwheel.
This form did not appear during the 1947 Wave. There were at least two
dozen cases of saucers with jet or rocket flames in that wave, but they
were associated with straight-line flight and never when the property
of spinning was mentioned. The earliest report of a pinwheel saucer
came out of Russia some time in 1949. We only know of it because
someone dug it out of the Blue Book files. A German POW told US
military intelligence of his being in Dnepropetrovsk SSR and seeing
large disc-shaped missiles that were black in the centre but glowed red
to white hot as one goes out along the radius. Out of the rim came
sparks. (6) The idea of jet-propelled rims does not become popular
until 1952 and wide dissemination of news of the crash of a Soviet-made
saucer on Spitzbergen. In the 28 June account, it was revealed the
craft had a stationary cabin and a rotating rim having 46 jets on it.
This craft was felt to be Russian since the chronometers and interior
instrumentation had Russian symbols on them. On 9 July 1952 the Oscar
Linke report of an encounter near Germany's Russian Zone emerges. The
refugee mayor saw figures in parkas rush to a saucer that took off
vertically. "From the swirling effect of the glowing exhaust I got the
impression the whole thing was spinning like a top." (7) On 26 August
1952 Herbert Long and two girls from Kutztown, Pennsylvania also report
seeing a large saucer that swished skyward at a tremendous speed. There
is a drawing by an artist displaying the pinwheeling effect. (8) Three
days later, 29 August, comes the once strongly touted Villacoublay case
involving military personnel who described a violet disc from which
irregular trails spurted out that twisted like a whiplash. (9) The next
year, blueprints appeared in The Aeroplane for a saucer with a
stationary cabin and 4 jets pinwheeling along the edge. (10) Jacques
Vallee would showcase other pinwheeling UFO cases in his early
writings, notably the Marignane story of 27 October 1952 and the
Frederick Moreland case of 13 July 1959. (11)
One case I find particularly interesting from a psychosocial
perspective wasn't investigated until 1982, but originally took place
in October 1963 at Millersport, Ohio. It is a multiple-witness case and
several drawings were made by the people involved. Glenna Parkinson's
drawing imperfectly, but unmistakably, resembles Herbert Long's saucer
by having rim flames, a broad bell-jar dome, and a broad antenna. The
other three witnesses provide substantially different drawings. Most
notably, none of the others drew pinwheeling flames. Here the
elaborative effect of cultural set on perception is nakedly
demonstrated. (12)
Pinwheeling saucers constituted at most a minor strand in the UFO
mythos and have pretty much vanished with the diminishing credibility
of the secret weapons theory. Rocket and jet propulsion as a means of
moving saucers is thoroughly out of fashion. The parallel or competing
tradition of saucers propelled by magnetic drives was more evocative of
alien forces and has showed staying power due to the cultural success
of the ETH. (13) The Spitzbergen and Linke cases probably bear the most
responsibility for the recurrent character of pinwheeling saucers due
to their wide publicity. Though Linke is largely forgotten these days,
his report not only appeared nationally in the newspapers but also was
included in the first UFO documentary, a short film by Telenews titled
The Flying Saucer Mystery.
Linke was pretty clearly responsible for another strand of the UFO
mythos. When it begins to take off the rim starts to move upward before
the stationary cabin and the craft takes on a mushroom configuration.
This very odd innovation may have been inspired by the nuclear imagery
of the era, i.e. the mushroom clouds created by atomic bombs. There
seems little doubt it served as the inspiration for the madly spinning
Ray Harryhausen saucers of Earth vs. the Flying Saucers (1956). The
pinwheeling flames are absent. This is an alien saucer and the
propulsion has to be magnetic to make their defeat by the scientists in
the film possible. The mushroom launch configuration is prominent in
several key scenes. It is visually startling, but ingenious in
conception. The stationary stalk allows humans and entities to enter
the saucer while, so to speak, keeping the motor running. The pilots
don't have to waste time slowing the saucer down and then speeding it
up again. The rapid take-off capability is a definite plus for a craft
that must do battle at the climax. The spinning in flight and
gyrational instability they show when attacked gives them a very
animated appearance and is visually giddy.
This mushroom configuration has recurred in a string of cases:
Pajasblancas Airport, Argentina - 1 May 1957; (14) Rio Pardo, Brazil -
June 1959; San Casciana, Italy - 10 April 1962; the Mount Etna contact
of 30 April 1962 by famed Italian contactee Eugenio Siragusa; Chanaral,
Chile - 19 July 1965; (15) Erie, Presque-Ile Park, Pennsylvania CE3K -
31 July 1966; (16) a series of Brazilian cases near Belo Horizonte and
La Baleia in August and September 1967; (17) Boyup Brook, Australia -
30 October 1967. (18) In a Linstead, Maryland case three witnesses saw
and many more heard a mushroom-shaped craft that had snow swirling
under it. (19) As recently as December 1990 Robert Simpson, walking on
a beach in India, saw a "a spaceship of some origin" hanging in the sky
with a generally similar mushroom configuration. (20) Though ufologists
are intrigued that people in such diverse locales report such similar
craft, I am more impressed with the fact that these cases lack the
pinwheeling flames of the original Linke case. The international
distribution of the 1956 Harryhausen film seems to be the proper
deduction of this spread of mushroom saucers.
I must deal here with a claim by Larry Robinson. In "Behind the UFO
Scenes" he writes:
Disk shaped UFOs were not generally reported to spin until after the
movie Earth vs. the Flying Saucers showed spinning disks. Before that,
most disks flew with propulsion from exhaust ports located on the back
of the disk, and vertical fins, as seen in The Thing." He
parenthetically adds: "Of course, this was about the time advertising
planes made their debut, with the spinning saucer illusion at a
distance.
It has already been demonstrated here that there was a fair number of
spinning saucer cases already in 1947 and some in subsequent years were
rather prominently reported. Told of this he elaborates:
My observation was that rotating saucers were a minority before the
movie was released, but afterwards they were the majority. I have The
UFO Evidence which contains some rotating saucer reports from the 1947
wave but they were in the minority then. (21)
To my knowledge, spinning never reached a level in any period where it
could be called a majority as claimed by Robinson. As a brief test, I
spent an hour looking through Hall's The UFO Evidence and found only
one case post-film with rotation (p. 32: 10/7/62) and 4 pre-film
(8/7/47, 22/7/52, 19/9/52, 29/12/52) with rotation or spinning. Most of
the hundred or so I looked at give no relevant details and a few dozen
were post-film. So the percentages of spinning saucer cases in both
periods are in single-digit territory and not even close to a majority.
A fin much like that in The Thing appears in a 20 March 1950 case (case
X in the collection of 12 drawings used in Battelle's Special Study No.
14). (22) But The Thing opened in April 1951. None of the other cases
in that study had fins. Two had rear exhaust and one had jets on the
side with exhaust directed backwards. "Most" had neither fins nor
exhaust. Case VII (6 June 1952) displayed spinning.
It must also be said that spinning saucers made their debut in cinema
in the Flash Gordon serial in 1938. One sequence of a madly spinning
saucer appears in the Bruce Gentry serial of 1949 and this effects clip
is recycled into the Atom Man vs. Superman (1950) and Blackhawk (1952)
serials. The Devil Girl from Mars's top-like spacecraft with a rim that
whirls and whines like a jet turbine also beats Harryhausen's
whirligigs to the screen by a year. Though some effect on the
percentages of spinning saucers by Harryhausen's imagery is plausible,
it has not been demonstrated and the effect would be less than turning
a rarity into a majority.
The variety of cinematic saucer kinematics has its own fascinations.
The flying craft of The Mysterians (1957) do not spin, but their Earth
base is shaped like a bell jar with a rim that spins massively up and
down through the ground. In Warning from Space (1956/1963) a saucer
lifting up on vertical flames creates a strong whirlpool around it even
though the craft itself is not spinning. In Battle of the Worlds (1963)
the saucers are unmanned and spin very rapidly. The saucer craft in
Lost in Space and The Invaders have lights that sequentially suggest
spinning, but the craft do not actually spin. Gammera the Invincible
(1966) is a gigantic spinning turtle that pinwheels flame out of its
leg-holes. Zontar (1968) shows us a saucer with a slower spin rate.
When we get to Close Encounters of the Third Kind (1977) the rotations
are so slow they barely rate the word spin anymore. The craft in the
finale of Starman (1984) has a rim that slowly revolves. The saucer
masquerading as a restaurant in Doin' Time on Planet Earth (1988) gets
up a spin-rate comically large enough to put its restaurant identity in
doubt, but never reaches gyration rates like those in the fifties.
Modern saucers live a more sedate life than they had back then. (23) As
a group, non-spinning saucers outnumber spinning saucers by a ratio of
at least 2 to 1. Viewed from underneath, the saucers from cinema prefer
counter-clockwise rotation, but not universally. I did not find any
instance of counter-rotation in my set of videos, though whether this
is because there aren't any or my collection is less than complete I
can't say. Such kinematic mirroring as does exist, I suspect, is a
working out of psychological biases shared by film-makers, UFO
reporters, and humans generally more than imitation. The recurrent
character of pinwheeling and mushroom saucers was a different matter
since their somewhat higher conceptual complexity and their
distribution over time seems to point to imitation.
Should saucers spin? There's no reason they should not if many or all
are in some sense products of human imagination. The puking alien or
the technical challenge of marrying immobile cabin to spinning body is
rendered irrelevant. How might ETH defenders patch over this
difficulty? Take one. The spinning saucers are instrumental craft that
are unmanned. But what can be done with a spinning instrumental device?
Spy devices would favour a stable platform. Atmospheric sampling can be
done more simply by toy-sized planes, rockets, balloons, etc. Take two.
We've always granted a certain percentage of UFO cases are IFOs. All
rational ufologists reject Spitzbergen as a hoax. Maybe these are all
just IFOs - we still have our classics and none of them spin, do they?
But do the spinning cases really seem any less evidential than the non-
spinning ones? Linke's report involved multiple witnesses and alleged
physical traces, and would rate better than many classics were it not
for the fact that it supports the Russian secret weapon theory that
ufologists have rejected. (24) Villacoublay involved military people.
Vallee showcased examples in Challenge to Science. Supporting evidence
offered by Coral Lorenzen for the validity of the Trindade photographs
includes a report of the identically sounding greenish-glowing enringed
spheroid being over the same island a few days before it was
photographed. It includes the detail: "The ring appeared to be rotating
at high speed." (25) I don't know of any photographic case more
defended than this one and it is surely a classic. This strategy thus
has problems. Take three. Aliens are weird and . . . Cut. We know the
government tries to make the UFO phenomenon look ridiculous . . . CUT.
It's enough to make a ufologist's head spin.
References
1. Benson, Thomas. "Findings Related to the Abduction Experience from a
Database on UFO Understructures" in Pritchard, Andrea, et. al. Alien
Discussions: Proceedings of the Abduction Study Conference held at MIT,
Cambridge, MA, North Cambridge Press, 1994, 160-165
2. Ibid.
3. Bullard, Thomas. UFO Abductions: The Measure of a Mystery, Fund for
UFO Research, 1987, 202
4. Bloecher, Ted. Report on the UFO Wave of 1947, author, 1967
5. Gross, Loren. UFOs: A History: 1950: January-March, author, 1983, 52-
54
6. Gross, Loren. UFOs: A History: Volume 2: 1949, author, 1982, section
2, 47
7. Kottmeyer, Martin. "Missing Linke", Promises and Disappointments,
3/4, 17-20
8. Girard, Robert. An Early UFO Scrapbook, Arcturus Book Service, 1989,
127
9. Michel, Aime. The Truth about Flying Saucers, Pyramid, 1967, 179-
185, 226-228
10. Girard, op. cit., 146-147
11. Vallee, Jacques and Janine. Challenge to Science, Ace Books, 1966,
28-30, 75-76
12. Seigfried, Richard D. "Multiple Witness Sighting of Structured
UFO", MUFON UFO Journal, l73, July 1982, 11-12
13. "Magnetic Drives" and "Conflicting Drives", unpublished files
14. Magonia catalogue, No. 393
15. Magonia catalogue, No. 658
16. Magonia catalogue, No. 784
17. Aleixo, Hulvio B. "Humanoid Encountered at La Baleia", Flying
Saucer Review, 14, 6, November-December 1968, 8-11, 20
18. Magonia catalogue, No. 893
19. Magonia catalogue, No. 819
20. Simpson, Robert E. "Missing Time in India", UFO Universe, Fall
1992, 39
21. http://php.indiana.edu/~lrobins/ufopage.htm
22. See Brad Steiger's Project Blue Book, 161, or Ron Story's
encyclopedia under Battelle.
23. Kottmeyer, Martin. "Blazing Saucers", The Skeptic, 10, 2, 1996, 8-12
24. "Missing Linke", op. cit.
25. Lorenzen, Coral E. Flying Saucers: The Startling Evidence of the
Invasion from Outer Space, Signet, 1966, 173
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
MAGONIA Monthly Supplement. Letters and short articles welcome. Letters
will be considered for publication unless otherwise indicated. Please
send all contributions to the Editor: John Harney -
har...@harneyj.freeserve.co.uk
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
E. L.
that his word should be holy grail? He doesn't know any more about UFOs
than what has been printed. Different reports, different POVs. Instead
on relying on whatever he says, make up your own mind watching as much
photos/films/videos as you can get your hands on. See for yourself.
Nothing is formulaic. Matin is famous because he said that UFO reports
of ROUND craft are round only because of Arnold's description which was
really a newspaper man's. He didn't say circular or flying saucers. He
described and drew what he saw (which seemed to change in different
sketches): chevron-shaped craft. Martin may not want to acknowledge
that there were UFOs (Flying Saucers) BEFORE Arnold's sighting, and back
through history. Illustrations hundreds and thousands of years old show
a multitude of shapes. Nobody knows any more about UFOs than what has
entered history, available to all. He just has a different POV not
necessarily better than yours or mine. Some spin, some don't. Some are
circular, some are not. So what? A long boring post is not the
ultimate answer. There are no answers, just questions.
el
----------------------------------------------------
::: Should Saucers Spin? :::
Group: alt.alien.visitors Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000, 7:06pm (EST+5) From:
brothe...@hotmail.com (Blue Resonant Human)
SHOULD SAUCERS SPIN?
by Martin Kottmeyer
[From Magonia ETH Bulletin #23, January 2000]
----------------------------------------------
Ugly Bob
"chengfs" <che...@pd.jaring.my> wrote in message
news:90485r$67th$1...@ID-59010.news.dfncis.de...
> A flying Saucers is like a 'Top"
> They should spin.
> When "Top" spin, its generate gyraforce
> which make stand up.
> So as the flying sourcers, spinning make it stable when flying through
air.
As opposed to some who post in this NG.
-Ugly Bob
chengfs
Denis Loubet
Pity the pilots. If they opened the side windows it'd be an alien puke
sprinkler.
Denis Loubet
dlo...@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
Paul Whitehead
<dlo...@io.com> writes
>sprinkler.
nah, they spin the other way (which could explain the apparent confusion
of ufonauts when asked questions) + they take anti nausea tabs.
otoh, pizza topping resembles alien puke, so maybe you're right.
Dr P
james...@my-deja.com
Blue Resonant Human <brothe...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Should saucers spin?
>
> Many do. Most do not. There is no consistency in the matter. Some
> whirl
> madly. Some rotate slowly. Seen from below, they rotate counter-
> clockwise more often than clockwise, but not universally. (1) Some
> manage to spin both ways at once; the outer rim goes one way while the
> centre section turns the opposite way. (2) Sometimes the rim spins and
> the centre stays still, but there is also a case where the centre spun
> with the rim staying still. (3)
>
Assuming they exists, perhaps they would spin the opposite
direction of a whirlpool. Curiosity would cause one to
wonder if the direction of the spin depended on which
hemisphere the observer was in. But this might cause them
to crash as they crossed over the equator, something akin to
a pilot attempting to cross a microburst.
Jim Smith
Foobar T. Clown
>
> SHOULD SAUCERS SPIN?
> by Martin Kottmeyer
> [From Magonia ETH Bulletin #23, January 2000]
>
> [...]
> most saucer reports don't show evidence of spinning. [...] Yet if
> saucers can propel themselves and function without spinning, why
> should any of them spin? What purpose is served in those that do spin?
Most cars don't have colored neon lights attached to their
undercarriage, and most don't produce pulsating sub-sonic waves that can
be felt from blocks away. What purpose is served by those that do have
neon? What is the significance of the different colors? What purpose
is served by the powerful sub-sonics? The irridescent paint jobs? The
darkened windows? etc.
Alien teenagers spin their saucers because it's QE3wel! They do it
because it annoys the grown up aliens who are so busy abducting humans,
mutilating cattle, and designing important crop circles that they never
have time for any fun.
Foo!
P.S.: Based on most of the UFO hoaxes that I've seen elaborately staged
film of; I'd guess that the aliens have arbitrary control over inertia
and, that the occupants of a spinning saucer do not experience the
ride any differently from the occupants of a standard factory-equipped
saucer.
Blue Resonant Human
We tried the "Top" spinning scenario a few hundred years back on
Ritalis IV. Unfortunately, the spin generated such extreme
centrifical/centrigugal force that it slammed the occupants against the
outer walls of the craft with an enormous splat.
It took WEEKS to clean up the mess!
So what we space aliens generally do now is monitor your science
fiction broadcasts in order to keep on top of how you expect us to look
and act and what types of vehicles you expect us to arrive in.
This way no one is disappointed.
-Brother Blue
Arcturan Walk-In
BF11
while gravity is an acceleration 32ft. per sec/sec.downwards
Directed upwards centrifugal force easily overcomes gravitational force
.
A mechanical model has been made to demonstate this principle a while
back by the Russians. and I made a small version as proof of concept.
It works, the principle is simply transferred to an electronic or plasma
system of transportation.
BF 11
It's a Miracle
in the middle of the craft.Like balancing a plate on your finger.If you
had 3 engines providing lift then you would be stable without
spinning.Three points make a geometric plane.Imagine balancing a plate
on three fingers. ~A2D~
Ugly Bob
"stiffsheet" <bron...@primus.com.au> wrote in message
news:3a28f9c4$1...@news.iprimus.com.au...
> The go the other way in the Southern Hemisphere as observed by Austrlian
and
> New Zealand watchers.
No, that's just in the commonwealth countries where everything
is backwards ;-)
-Ugly Bob
Gary
around in a fast circle? Then the floor went out from underneath you
while you were g forced into the wall and got real dizzy? The
Amusement operator was an alien taking down all the scientific data for
future technological development for his alien peers. I know this for a
fact because telepathy is controlling my fingers and thumb at this
moment.
Reallly as plausible as any theory why can't these saucers
spinning or bobbing or jutting not be part of some GIANT spirit who is
doing a marionette gig to amuse his constituents like a Curt, excuse me
like a Court Jester? And if the Marionette were like a sophisticated
Yo-Yo then that would explain all the spinning type movements?! Do I
have any takers here?
Regards, Gary(the one and only CurtJester)
Ha ha ha HA ha....Ha ha ha HA ha...."It's the Woody Wood Pecker Song"
stiffsheet
Denis Loubet wrote in message
<7kpV5.31435$XQ4.5...@typhoon.austin.rr.com>...
>
>"chengfs" <che...@pd.jaring.my> wrote in message
>news:90485r$67th$1...@ID-59010.news.dfncis.de...
>Pity the pilots. If they opened the side windows it'd be an alien puke
>sprinkler.
>
stiffsheet
New Zealand watchers.
james...@my-deja.com wrote in message <905r49$4ma$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>In article <8vh5g9$3i3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> Blue Resonant Human <brothe...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Should saucers spin?
>>
>> Many do. Most do not. There is no consistency in the matter. Some
>> whirl
>> madly. Some rotate slowly. Seen from below, they rotate counter-
>> clockwise more often than clockwise, but not universally. (1) Some
>> manage to spin both ways at once; the outer rim goes one way while the
>> centre section turns the opposite way. (2) Sometimes the rim spins and
>> the centre stays still, but there is also a case where the centre spun
>> with the rim staying still. (3)
>>
>
>Assuming they exists, perhaps they would spin the opposite
>direction of a whirlpool. Curiosity would cause one to
>wonder if the direction of the spin depended on which
>hemisphere the observer was in. But this might cause them
>to crash as they crossed over the equator, something akin to
>a pilot attempting to cross a microburst.
>
>Jim Smith
>
>
stiffsheet
It's a Miracle wrote in message
<20355-3A...@storefull-175.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
Eric Hocking
news:3a29265e$1...@news.nwlink.com...
> and
> > New Zealand watchers.
> is backwards ;-)
I'm still trying to work out what this mythical "gyraforce" is...
>"chengfs" <che...@pd.jaring.my> wrote in message
>news:90485r$67th$1...@ID-59010.news.dfncis.de...
>> A flying Saucers is like a 'Top"
>> They should spin.
>> When "Top" spin, its generate gyraforce
--
Eric Hocking
"A closed mouth gathers no feet"
"Ignorance is a renewable resource" - P.J. O'Rourke.
=== London, England (ex Melbourne, Australia) ===
http://www.twofromoz.freeserve.co.uk
David Cantu
stabilize an object. Conservation of angular momentum. If they "slip" through
our atmosphere useing boundry layer control they would need to spin or they
couldn't fly worth a damn.
An alien vomit sprinkler, I love that one.
Laugh at yourself,
Zed
Eric Hocking wrote:
> "Ugly Bob" <ugly_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:3a29265e$1...@news.nwlink.com...
> > "stiffsheet" <bron...@primus.com.au> wrote in message
> > news:3a28f9c4$1...@news.iprimus.com.au...
> > > The go the other way in the Southern Hemisphere as observed by Austrlian
> > and
> > > New Zealand watchers.
Ugly Bob
"David Cantu" <dc...@houston.rr.com> wrote in message
news:3A2C18C0...@houston.rr.com...
> Not force. Stability. Whithout airodynamic stability, spinning can be
used to
Now, let me get this straight. The "gyra-stability" is generated 'cause
it don't got no "airodynamic" stability? Well, _that_ explains it! I can't
understand why we were so confused ;-)
-Ugly Bob
> stabilize an object. Conservation of angular momentum. If they "slip"
through
> our atmosphere useing boundry layer control they would need to spin or
they
> couldn't fly worth a damn.
> An alien vomit sprinkler, I love that one.
> Laugh at yourself,
> Zed
>
> Eric Hocking wrote:
>
> > "Ugly Bob" <ugly_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:3a29265e$1...@news.nwlink.com...
> > > "stiffsheet" <bron...@primus.com.au> wrote in message
> > > news:3a28f9c4$1...@news.iprimus.com.au...
> > > > The go the other way in the Southern Hemisphere as observed by
Austrlian
> > > and
> > > > New Zealand watchers.
Denis Loubet
> SHIIIIIIIIITTT- I just sprayed coffee all over the monitor reading that
Ahh, then my work here is done. ;-)
Eric Hocking
> "David Cantu" <dc...@houston.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:3A2C18C0...@houston.rr.com...
> > Not force. Stability. Whithout airodynamic stability, spinning can be
> used to
>
> Now, let me get this straight. The "gyra-stability" is generated 'cause
> it don't got no "airodynamic" stability? Well, _that_ explains it! I can't
> understand why we were so confused ;-)
Yep - clear as mud to me.
> > Eric Hocking wrote:
> > > I'm still trying to work out what this mythical "gyraforce" is...
> > > >"chengfs" <che...@pd.jaring.my> wrote in message
james...@my-deja.com
"stiffsheet" <bron...@primus.com.au> wrote:
> The go the other way in the Southern Hemisphere as observed by
> Austrlian and New Zealand watchers.
I've had an opportunity to rethink this idea and have come
to the realization that my original question was somewhat
rediculous. Since I am not a physicist, I had to look
up a layman's explanation of the Coriolis effect on the
web and found that, although a vehicle moving across the
sky at high velocities would have to take it into account
in order to stay it's course, it's effect on an extremely
local nature (I'm referring to stability) are probably
insufficient to justify any kind of consideration. I
am therefore forced to withdraw my query concerning this
matter, which I now do. :o(
Reference:
http://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~dvandom/Edu/newcor.html
Jim Smith
>
> james...@my-deja.com wrote in message <905r49
David Cantu
stability, which is subject to atmospheric perturbations. Spin a bicycle
wheel and try to change its orientation. Spin a top and watch it stand up
straight, until frictional torque steals its energy. Using an electronic
gyroscope on a model helicopter gives it enough stability to fly. Try to fly
one without the gyro.
Take a Physics class, I'll be glad to add you to my class.
ZED
Ugly Bob wrote:
> "David Cantu" <dc...@houston.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:3A2C18C0...@houston.rr.com...
> > Not force. Stability. Whithout airodynamic stability, spinning can be
> used to
>
> Now, let me get this straight. The "gyra-stability" is generated 'cause
> it don't got no "airodynamic" stability? Well, _that_ explains it! I can't
> understand why we were so confused ;-)
>
> -Ugly Bob
>
> > stabilize an object. Conservation of angular momentum. If they "slip"
> through
> > our atmosphere useing boundry layer control they would need to spin or
> they
> > couldn't fly worth a damn.
> > An alien vomit sprinkler, I love that one.
> > Laugh at yourself,
> > Zed
> >
> > Eric Hocking wrote:
> >
> > > "Ugly Bob" <ugly_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > news:3a29265e$1...@news.nwlink.com...
> > > > "stiffsheet" <bron...@primus.com.au> wrote in message
> > > > news:3a28f9c4$1...@news.iprimus.com.au...
> > > > > The go the other way in the Southern Hemisphere as observed by
> Austrlian
> > > > and
> > > > > New Zealand watchers.
> > > > No, that's just in the commonwealth countries where everything
> > > > is backwards ;-)
> > >
> > > I'm still trying to work out what this mythical "gyraforce" is...
> > > >"chengfs" <che...@pd.jaring.my> wrote in message
> > > >news:90485r$67th$1...@ID-59010.news.dfncis.de...
> > > >> A flying Saucers is like a 'Top"
> > > >> They should spin.
Jerry bryson
Denis Loubet <dlo...@io.com> wrote:
> "chengfs" <che...@pd.jaring.my> wrote in message
> news:90485r$67th$1...@ID-59010.news.dfncis.de...
> Pity the pilots. If they opened the side windows it'd be an alien puke
> sprinkler.
>
> Denis Loubet
> dlo...@io.com
> http://www.io.com/~dloubet
--
Jerry
jbr...@richmond.infi.net
Save the beaches! Release Great Whites
I smoke for your protection.
Robert LaCasse
A probe might spin, not a personnel craft though, sure would
get dizzy, like spinning so fast, to motionless. like watching a
Mag/spoked car tire seeming to spin the wrong way...???at a certain
"Back to the Future" set speed???
Bob
On Sat, 2 Dec 2000 08:40:22 -0800, "Ugly Bob" <ugly_...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
|>
|>"stiffsheet" <bron...@primus.com.au> wrote in message
|>news:3a28f9c4$1...@news.iprimus.com.au...
|>> The go the other way in the Southern Hemisphere as observed by Austrlian
|>and
|>> New Zealand watchers.
|>
|> No, that's just in the commonwealth countries where everything
|>is backwards ;-)
|>
|> -Ugly Bob
|>
Ugly Bob
> The stability of spinning objects is more effective than aerodynamic
> stability, which is subject to atmospheric perturbations. Spin a bicycle
> wheel and try to change its orientation. Spin a top and watch it stand up
> straight, until frictional torque steals its energy. Using an electronic
> gyroscope on a model helicopter gives it enough stability to fly. Try to
fly
> one without the gyro.
> Take a Physics class, I'll be glad to add you to my class.
> ZED
Uh huh...yeah, right.
>
> Ugly Bob wrote:
>
> > "David Cantu" <dc...@houston.rr.com> wrote in message
> > news:3A2C18C0...@houston.rr.com...
> > > Not force. Stability. Whithout airodynamic stability, spinning can
be
> > used to
> >
> > Now, let me get this straight. The "gyra-stability" is generated 'cause
> > it don't got no "airodynamic" stability? Well, _that_ explains it! I
can't
> > understand why we were so confused ;-)
> >
> > -Ugly
Bob
> >
> > > stabilize an object. Conservation of angular momentum. If they
"slip"
> > through
> > > our atmosphere useing boundry layer control they would need to spin or
> > they
> > > couldn't fly worth a damn.
> > > An alien vomit sprinkler, I love that one.
> > > Laugh at yourself,
> > > Zed
> > >
> > > Eric Hocking wrote:
> > >
> > > > "Ugly Bob" <ugly_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:3a29265e$1...@news.nwlink.com...
> > > > > "stiffsheet" <bron...@primus.com.au> wrote in message
> > > > > news:3a28f9c4$1...@news.iprimus.com.au...
> > > > > > The go the other way in the Southern Hemisphere as observed by
> > Austrlian
> > > > > and
> > > > > > New Zealand watchers.
> > > > > No, that's just in the commonwealth countries where everything
> > > > > is backwards ;-)
> > > >
> > > > I'm still trying to work out what this mythical "gyraforce" is...
> > > > >"chengfs" <che...@pd.jaring.my> wrote in message
> > > > >news:90485r$67th$1...@ID-59010.news.dfncis.de...
> > > > >> A flying Saucers is like a 'Top"
> > > > >> They should spin.
> > > > >> When "Top" spin, its generate gyraforce
> > > >
David Cantu
Maybe you should change your monicker to Stupid Bob. Or maybe you can get an
edu-ma-cation.
The offer stands - even Ugly, Stupid people are allowed in my Physics class.
I don't know if you could pass though, thats up to you. Your head might be a bit
too thick for learnin'.
Zed
Ugly Bob wrote:
> > > > > > > The go the other way in the Southern Hemisphere as observed by
> > > Austrlian
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > New Zealand watchers.
da bear
>
>...Not to mention the latrine...
whoooo! Oh please do!!! ROFLMFAO <laughing my fuzzy hidquarters off>
>Denis Loubet <dlo...@io.com> wrote:
>
>> "chengfs" <che...@pd.jaring.my> wrote in message
>> news:90485r$67th$1...@ID-59010.news.dfncis.de...
>> Pity the pilots. If they opened the side windows it'd be an alien puke
>> sprinkler.
>>
>> Denis Loubet
>> dlo...@io.com
>> http://www.io.com/~dloubet
>
>
>--
>Jerry
>jbr...@richmond.infi.net
>Save the beaches! Release Great Whites
>I smoke for your protection.
--
--
Some strive just for knowledge, some fire for effect
Some strive for obtusity, some to be direct
I prefer the latter.
Da Bear
Ugly Bob
> Hey, just because your Ugly doesn't meam that you HAVE to be stupid.
> Maybe you should change your monicker to Stupid Bob. Or maybe you can get
an
I believe the moniker "Stupid Bob" is already in use, though not by me.
> edu-ma-cation.
> The offer stands - even Ugly, Stupid people are allowed in my Physics
class.
I haven't been to school for decades and have no wish to return, thank you.
> I don't know if you could pass though, thats up to you. Your head might be
a bit
> too thick for learnin'.
So, the reason that you'd want me in your class is...
> Zed
Do you kill for Zardoz?
-Ugly Bob
David Cantu
the Tabernacle Crystal.
Love to all Eternals, Death to all Brutals
Love,
ZED the Destroyer.
Jerry bryson
<james...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> (I'm referring to stability) are probably
> insufficient to justify any kind of consideration.
Ugly Bob
> What else can you do when your caught in the Vortex and penetrate the
secret of
> the Tabernacle Crystal.
> Love to all Eternals, Death to all Brutals
Kill me too, Zed!
-Ugly Bob
> Love,
> ZED the Destroyer.
>
John Clark
William Baldwin
where this did occur the spinning surface involved only the outer rim of the
craft, while the center section (observation/flight deck) remains static and
"pointed" in the direction of movement.
By spinning the outer rim of this particular type of craft, the weight of
the craft as a whole is reduced to almost zero while operating within a
strong gravitational field. Outside of an atmosphere and gravity's effects,
the craft requires a different mode of flight and of alignment.
Crow
David Cantu
Spinning tops stand up due to consevation of angular momentum - this is not a
gravitational effect. It is an example of gyroscopic stability.
So some one explain how spinning effects gravity (aside from centripedal force)?
joanne26
David Cantu
But seriously, I've seen a spinning, wobbling flying saucer myself and still
don't see that the spinning was what made it fly. The
spinning is probably needed because the craft dosn't "rub against" the air.
Without air friction you cannot have aerodynamics - but you can move about freely
in the atmosphere at EXTREMELY high
speeds.
If you don't have frictional aerodynamics to stabalize the craft while in the air
you Have to replace the stability somehow or the
craft will tumble. Gyroscopic effects like spinning are GREAT substitutes.
In fact a craft that could slip through the atmosphere without friction while
using spinning stability would be superior to any thing
we have.
And SOMEONE IS flying them in our atmosphere - guarenteed!
Now my head is spinning!
Love,
Zed
Harry Bosch
"William Baldwin" <Billy92@NO_SPAM_columbus.rr.com> wrote in message
news:0WJY5.2344$nv1....@typhoon.columbus.rr.com...
I am wondering how you know so much about alien spacecraft?
It is a fairly well kept secret here at O.H.S.H.I.T. the operating
characteristics of these crashed alien spacecraft. It surprises me that
you are so knowledgeable of these characteristics. It is of course, the
reason that we call them 5 pound spaceships.
Now do not forget that the United States Government has awarded us the
exclusive rights to back-engineer these craft, and all discoveries belong
to my company and are wholly or partly pending World patent at this time.
No fair trying to make money from them now.
Regards,
Capt. Harry
Oregon Home Spaceship High Invisibility Technology, Inc.
Home of the 5 Pound Spaceship
Crow Baldwin
--
Billy "Crow" Baldwin
Crow Baldwin
Do not be surprised to find many Ex-Techs from various disciplines who know
"the basics" of their flight capabilities, etc who may not openly admit that
they know it.
The spinning does in fact stabilize the craft within the atmosphere and also
affects the weight, as one fellow pointed out here, by converting one type
of energy to another, like we have done with children's toys for some time.
Once you take weight more or less out of the picture many other things enter
the realm of the Aeronautically possible, and then even the earth's
relatively weak magnetic field can then be used for other things.
--
Billy "Crow" Baldwin
joanne26
zen yea they just really bug me .i mean like i know there there but they wont
show themselfs and all ways leaving little hints around that only i can pick
up on..just generally trying to fuck up my sanity.
whaT DO YOU THINK THEY WANT .cant be my body.must be my mind
cuz i ant got any $$$.
Jerry bryson
da bear <m...@somehost.somedomain> wrote:
> In article <1el62f2.li2...@user-2iveg2r.dialup.mindspring.com>,
jbr...@richmond.infi.net rattled electrons thusly...
> >
> >...Not to mention the latrine...
>
> whoooo! Oh please do!!! ROFLMFAO <laughing my fuzzy hidquarters off>
>
> >Denis Loubet <dlo...@io.com> wrote:
> >
> >> "chengfs" <che...@pd.jaring.my> wrote in message
> >> news:90485r$67th$1...@ID-59010.news.dfncis.de...
> >> > A flying Saucers is like a 'Top"
> >> > They should spin.
> >> > When "Top" spin, its generate gyraforce
> >> > which make stand up.
> >> > So as the flying sourcers, spinning make it stable when flying through
> >> air.
> >>
> >> Pity the pilots. If they opened the side windows it'd be an alien puke
> >> sprinkler.
> >>
> >> Denis Loubet
> >> dlo...@io.com
> >> http://www.io.com/~dloubet
> >
> >
Deborah Quinn
Ugly Bob
"Crow Baldwin" <Billy92@NO_SPAM_columbus.rr.com> wrote in message
news:9Y1Z5.3232$nv1....@typhoon.columbus.rr.com...
But how do you know? Where does this information come from. It is
provided to you by whom (or what)? How does it get in your head?
Huh?
-Ugly Bob
Dan Wojciechowski
>
> Now that was uncalled for, unless it will help me with the spinning thing.
> But seriously, I've seen a spinning, wobbling flying saucer myself and still
> don't see that the spinning was what made it fly. The
> spinning is probably needed because the craft dosn't "rub against" the air.
> Without air friction you cannot have aerodynamics - but you can move about freely
> in the atmosphere at EXTREMELY high
> speeds.
> If you don't have frictional aerodynamics to stabalize the craft while in the air
> you Have to replace the stability somehow or the
> craft will tumble. Gyroscopic effects like spinning are GREAT substitutes.
Interesting theory, but consider: The space shuttle, Apollo craft, etc.
traveled where there is no air resistance, yet they do not tumble. Therefore,
why would the "flying saucer" tumble?
--
Dan (Woj...) dma...@lucent.com
" I say, we can go where we want to / a place where they will never find /
And we can act like we come from out of this world / Leave the real one
far behind / and we can dance. "
Dan Wojciechowski
...
> The spinning does in fact stabilize the craft within the atmosphere and also
> affects the weight, as one fellow pointed out here, by converting one type
> of energy to another, like we have done with children's toys for some time.
> Once you take weight more or less out of the picture many other things enter
> the realm of the Aeronautically possible, and then even the earth's
> relatively weak magnetic field can then be used for other things.
Excuse me? How does spinning affect weight? (It doesn't.) And what toys
demonstrate this principle? (None.)
Merry Lil Baker
>--
> Dan (Woj...) dma...@lucent.com
>" I say, we can go where we want to / a place where they will never find /
> And we can act like we come from out of this world / Leave the real one
> far behind / and we can dance. "
Only Martians can dance. :-)
Blue Resonant Human
> Crow Baldwin wrote:
> ...
> > The spinning does in fact stabilize the craft within the atmosphere
and also
> > affects the weight, as one fellow pointed out here, by converting
one type
> > of energy to another, like we have done with children's toys for
some time.
> > Once you take weight more or less out of the picture many other
things enter
> > the realm of the Aeronautically possible, and then even the earth's
> > relatively weak magnetic field can then be used for other things.
> ...
> Excuse me? How does spinning affect weight? (It doesn't.) And what
toys
> demonstrate this principle? (None.)
And yet so as not to lose sight of the forest for the trees, the
underlying purpose of this entire thread was an exploration of the
possibility that The Other dresses Itself in precisely those costumes
we expect It to.
Perhaps the damn saucers spin because we expect them to. Perhaps they
model silly B-grade sci-fi movies just as much as they model McKenna's
hoover vacuum cleaner top saucers or David's laughably absurd
jerky "falling leaf trajectory" crafts.
And again, like David's hashish-gobblin' dog, perhaps we too will have
to wait until our own Toto pulls back the curtain that we may more
clearly psee the "Great and Powerful Oz" sans all the pomp, splendour
and culturally imposed regalia.
Think about it.
-Blue Resonant Human, Ph.D.
Memetic Engineer and Magickal Scientist
RS
"Toto is as Toto does"
[Sometimes can't see the Forest for the trees Gump]
All this seems to have overshadwoed, the on-going peace efforts
of Bill and Hillary.
Here's to you Bill and Hillary, you may not be the most popular
couple to some of the Blue people in this group (not mentioning
any names ;) but to me, you are solid gold, baby, solid gold.
Hey Bono, you incredible song meister you, whats the chances
you can get Charlotte Church and Pavarotti to do a charity duet
of "Oh Holy Night" for those kidney selling desparately
poor people in Moldavia?
-*-
RwS
Whose writings and all parts therof, are free for the taking
without compensation.
Merry Lil Baker
Obscure comes to mind. Keywords without meaning. Heh, just like everything
else on this newsfroup. tata, gotta go make the rich richer.
Love,
Dorothy
james...@my-deja.com
Dan Wojciechowski <Dan.R.Woj...@lucent.com> wrote:
> Crow Baldwin wrote:
> ...
> > The spinning does in fact stabilize the craft within the atmosphere
> > and also
> > affects the weight, as one fellow pointed out here, by converting
> > one type
> > of energy to another, like we have done with children's toys for
> > some time.
> > Once you take weight more or less out of the picture many other > >
> > things enter
> > the realm of the Aeronautically possible, and then even the earth's
> > relatively weak magnetic field can then be used for other things.
> ...
> Excuse me? How does spinning affect weight? (It doesn't.) And what
> toys
> demonstrate this principle? (None.)
>
They may be talking about that device from Tampere University.
Don't know if it's been duplicated. See:
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~joi/issue4/ar185.html
I remember there being other problems with the work as well,
exactly what they were I don't recall at the moment.
Jim Smith
Blue Resonant Human
> Hey Bono, you incredible song meister you...
"Touch me ... and take me to that Other Place
What you don't have, you don't need it now
What you don't know, you can feel somehow."
It's a beautiful day -- don't let it get away