the value of books

[Sandra Dodd]

-=-It's true also that the value I put onto books is MY value, not
THEIRS, and shouldn't be impossed on them if i want them to learn to
think freely. I should let them learn THEIR OWN value for things like
books and whatever else.-=-

I was surprised and disappointed that my kids didn't like books as
much as I did, and I thought about it a lot. This concerns that:
http://sandradodd.com/bookandsax

I have several thousand books, mostly non-fiction, most of which are,
honestly, pretty worthless now that there's google. I'm sad to say
it's like having bought nine tons of potatoes and now they're all
rotting and sprouting and there's not much to do but shovel them
out. There are some of those books that are beautiful and can't be
replaced by an internet search, but some are really outdated, not on
great paper, no color illustrations... Old Penguin histories of
England, for instance. Not worth keeping, really. I talked to
someone recently about the possibility of donating some of my books
to the state prison, because they don't let those guys have google.

Sandra

[Kerryn L Gutmanis]

Perhaps the contents of the books have been replaced (by a google search),
but the snuggle up comfort of a book, sitting in bed with the children in
the evening after a big day, falling asleep with the open pages on your
chest...I don't think a lap top can give you the same warm gooies.:-)

Kerryn

[Amy Bowers]

Wow. So interesting this talk about books. I too have hoarded books
and have just realized that my clutter problems can be somewhat
alleviated if I can pass them on. I think I had the notion that by
holding on to the book I was holding on to the knowledge - which is of
course false. I have sold tons on Amazon, gave them to friends, and
donated them to the library. I realized that many were on hand "just
in case" I ever wanted to read them or refer to them. I decided that I
would only keep the really exceptional, inspirational and worthwhile
to our family. It feels great! And guess what - we still have hundreds
if not thousands of books.

Amy

[Sandra Dodd]

On Apr 11, 2006, at 5:33 PM, Kerryn L Gutmanis wrote:

Perhaps the contents of the books have been replaced (by a google search), 

but the snuggle up comfort of a book, sitting in bed with the children in 

the evening after a big day, falling asleep with the open pages on your 

chest...I don't think a lap top can give you the same warm gooies.:-)

Some books are snuggle-up books, but most of the ones I have aren't. <g>

Sandra

[Stephanie Stagner]

Wheww!!  I thought I had the only homeschooled kids who didn't like books much, unless it's video game manuals or something like that.  I was feeling pretty bad that they didn't inherit a love of the written word from me, now I feel better.  Thanks ;-)

Stephanie

Sandra Dodd <San...@sandradodd.com> wrote:

I was surprised and disappointed that my kids didn't like books as
much as I did, and I thought about it a lot. This concerns that:
http://sandradodd.com/bookandsax

 

---

Blab-away for as little as 1¢/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.

[amyLS]

I have become pretty good at culling my book collection. One thing
that helped me was to look at them the same way as baby-clothes. If I
am done with them, and no one in my house had any use for them, then it
feels just fine to pass them to someone who may use them. Of course, I
DO have a few baby outfits I couldn't part with... they are tucked
away. What a good idea, donating them to a prison. There MUST be
prisoners who feel like it is Christmas when new books come in.

[Amy]

nope, not the only one--I have an anti-book child too. I am still coming to terms with this long road of disappointment ;) I can easily read through a good book in a week, but trying to get Alex to sit and read through more than a couple of pages is torturous and I won't do that to him (well, anymore..) that said...this boy will pick up Newsweek and read an article about Caesar Chavez, but heaven forbid I suggest picking up the new harry potter book! "naw--we'll just wait for the movie mom" is the response I get. I guess I'll eventually learn to let go, until then I still have a box full of great books that maybe he'll read someday...lol

 

BTW--not to hijack your thread--I'm Amy, and Alex is my 8 yr old son. I joined several months ago but have been lurking and reading. I may have introduced myself back when I joined, but that was so long ago now I can't remember. we started homeschooling about 2 1/2 yrs ago...unschooled from the beginning, but didn't realize or admit it until last year :)

 

[Susan Fuerst]

Have you offered the HP 'book on tape' (or CD more likely)  the guy who reads it is amazing!  My dd, 14, has listened numerous times to those stories.  As far as I know, she has yet to read a book.  She loves books on tape.  She can read what she needs to, loves to read recipes, and some craft books. 

 

I can relate to the 'long road of dissapointment.'  It has also been occasionally challenging as she gets older.  I have wondered whther she will reall ever get it, but I have managed to learn not to impose my anxiety on her - which took me awhile.  Paradoxically, my anxiety is, I believe, part of what'a made it harder for her.  Joyce wrore something wrt to TV and ways parents sometimes disempower children.  I think I did that with Katy, for awhile sort of unconsciously, then for awhile unwittingly becasue I was struggling to learn how to interact withher about it while trying to understand and let go of my 'baggage' about it.  I can see how I learned to manage it differently and finally was able to find ways to communicate my actual confidence(I wanted to have it; I knew it in my head.  For me, it was some time before I could have it actualized) that my dc are capable of learning and I can offfer them direction, or they will find it in their lives when it's right for them.

 

Pam's recent anecdote about her 13 yo and spelling, reading, writing, was really a boost fo rme.  I see a similar blossoming with my 14 yo...and I can relate to her better with confidence inher way of learning, in her time of becoming. I can enjoy it more deeply.

 

Peace, Susan

---

From: Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com [mailto:Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Amy
Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 12:07 AM
To: Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: the value of books

[Sandra Dodd]

On Apr 13, 2006, at 3:12 AM, Susan Fuerst wrote:

For me, it was some time before I could have it actualized) that my dc are capable of learning and I can offfer them direction, or they will find it in their lives when it's right for them.

There are other things than offering direction or waiting for them to find things, too.  There's doing things together, sharing new things (music, e-mail links, foods, photoshop tricks, stories, trivia)...

Sandra

[Stephanie Stagner]

That is what we do now, instead of reading together our days our filled with music and movies.  It's good that my kids have the choice whether or not to pick up a book.  Some people just aren't readers, I guess (although I'll never understand why?? ;-)).  My kids like the music better because they can still do what they were doing and listen at the same time/vs. reading where they can only do that and not play Leggos at the same time, or whatever.

Stephanie

who can read, and watch TV and feed the baby at the same time..lol..

Sandra Dodd <San...@sandradodd.com> wrote:

 

There are other things than offering direction or waiting for them to find things, too.  There's doing things together, sharing new things (music, e-mail links, foods, photoshop tricks, stories, trivia)...

Sandra

---

Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min.

[DJ Houston]

i just learned that reading a single poem, even a short one, generates
more thought activity than reading an entire novel. Apparently its in
the way the sentences are structured, and in the levels of inferred
meaning from the poem. Pretty damn cool.

Nature's first green is gold
her hardest hue to hold
her early leaf's a flower
but only so an hour
Then leaf subsides to leaf
So Eden sank to grief
So down comes down to day
Nothing gold can stay

Robert Frost

there. now everyone's had more brain activity than reading a novel!

much love
DJ

Stephanie Stagner wrote:
> That is what we do now, instead of reading together our days our
> filled with music and movies. It's good that my kids have the choice
> whether or not to pick up a book. Some people just aren't readers, I
> guess (although I'll never understand why?? ;-)). My kids like the
> music better because they can still do what they were doing and listen
> at the same time/vs. reading where they can only do that and not play
> Leggos at the same time, or whatever.
> Stephanie
> who can read, and watch TV and feed the baby at the same time..lol..
>

> */Sandra Dodd <San...@sandradodd.com>/* wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> There are other things than offering direction or waiting for them
> to find things, too. There's doing things together, sharing new
> things (music, e-mail links, foods, photoshop tricks, stories,
> trivia)...
>
> Sandra
>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls.
> Great rates starting at 1¢/min.
> >

> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman7/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=39666/*http://beta.messenger.yahoo.com>
>

[Susan Fuerst]

On Apr 13, 2006, at 3:12 AM, Susan Fuerst wrote:

For me, it was some time before I could have it actualized) that my dc are capable of learning and I can offfer them direction, or they will find it in their lives when it's right for them.

There are other things than offering direction or waiting for them to find things, too.  There's doing things together, sharing new things (music, e-mail links, foods, photoshop tricks, stories, trivia)...

I wasn't clear...for me, this was my hangup wrt to learning to read, and my process of going through it.  I didn't seems to have it for much else, I could just enjoy doing things..  trusting, seeing, knowing we were learning all along.   For me, part of that process did involve noticing my own heavy reliance on book learning and find my own way in doing things...realizing I learn all the time, too; it's great to try new things and discover the learning that comes through aother aspects of daily life.  And I began to understand the limitations of reading.  I guess it seemed to mean so much to me in remembering my childhood.  It's also nice to remember the other ways.  I think that idea (that reading is *the* ticket to 'success') gets reinforced in our society where reading seems to be raised up and glorified - the earlier the better, the later the more frightened we should all be.  Recognizing the imposed fear and dismissing it - that was key for me..

Susan

[Sandra Dodd]

On Apr 13, 2006, at 1:23 PM, Susan Fuerst wrote:

I think that idea (that reading is *the* ticket to 'success') gets reinforced in our society where reading seems to be raised up and glorified - the earlier the better, the later the more frightened we should all be. 

===========

Maybe that's part of the prejudice against TV and radio (before TV, people criticized kids listening to radio shows)—maybe it's part of the whole book worship aspect of our culture.  Anything that keeps people from dependency on reading can be seen as a bad thing.  

Hard work is good.  If someone has to work hard to know what happens to Harry Potter, they've earned the right to know.  But if they can just listen to it, or go to a theatre, or have someone tell them, they've gotten the information a lazy way, not "the real" way.

Our culture has some hangups. <g>

Sandra

http://sandradodd.com/books

(Some ideas are collected there.)

[Willa Ryan]

>>Maybe that's part of the prejudice against TV and radio (before TV, people criticized kids listening to radio shows)—maybe it's part of the whole book worship aspect of our culture.  Anything that keeps people from dependency on reading can be seen as a bad thing.  >>

 

I think before that, kids were criticized for "always having their nose in a book" and encouraged to go out and do real things.

 

As a bookworm, I can see some that in some ways dependency on reading kept me from learning things "the hard way" -- by living and thinking it out for myself.  Yet it also had some advantages -- just because it was "easy".   I could learn and think about some things that I probably wouldn't have come to on my own.   Reading also let me back off from day to day life.   Probably the balance is a good thing.  

 

I like the "both/and" rather than "either/or" way that you are approaching these kinds of things.  

 

My 6yo has some medical conditions.   He was fed through a G-tube because he gagged when he even saw someone eating, let alone tried to eat on his own.    When he started eating by mouth, at first he only ate things like M&Ms and drank things like 7Up.   Over the past two years he has tried all different types of food and enjoys a wide range.  

 

The point is that I saw that when we offered him everything and anything, he took a selection based purely on what he wanted to eat and was attracted to, and ended up with a variety.   He started up eating just the sugary things,  but then moved out from there.

 

Willa

[Susan Fuerst]

 

Sandra

http://sandradodd.com/books

(Some ideas are collected there.)

 great link!  thanks  Susan 

[Katy Jennings]

 

Sandra wrote:

<<< If someone has to work hard to know what happens to Harry Potter, they've earned the right to know.  But if they can just listen to it, or go to a theatre, or have someone tell them, they've gotten the information a lazy way, not "the real" way.>>>>

 

Going to a movie theater is lazy and bad, but going to "the theater" to see a live production is culture, and is good (unless it is the Rocky Horror Show <g>).

 

Katy J. in Southern NM

(who went to see the Rocky Horror Picture Show dressed as once, Janet, and once, Columbia, but always wanted to be Frank.....)

[Sandra Dodd]

On Apr 13, 2006, at 2:46 PM, Willa Ryan wrote:

As a bookworm, I can see some that in some ways dependency on reading kept me from learning things "the hard way" -- by living and thinking it out for myself.  Yet it also had some advantages -- just because it was "easy".   I could learn and think about some things that I probably wouldn't have come to on my own.

But... Books.  You said "books."

What about reading here?  What about a real interactive discussion in writing?  It's not as respected as books.

The writing, too, is not "real" here.  It's not on paper.  There was no first draft, revision...  

But it's WAY more real than the writing that goes into books.  Those who write books are writing for hypothetical people.  Someone writing here today knows at least some of the people they're writing too, and will get feedback within days or hours (sometimes minutes).   And writing that involves ideas for how to make kids' and families' lives better can have an effect right away.  Some mom reading here might look up and smile at her child, or touch his head softly, or turn off the compute and go watch him build with Lego, or go with him to the park to throw a frisbee for the dog.  Maybe without this list she would've told him to just go do something else because she had to fix dinner.

I think writing that has engaged readers who intend to immediately consider and maybe implement the ideas there is some of the best, most *real* writing there could be.

Sandra

[Sandra Dodd]

On Apr 13, 2006, at 4:52 PM, Katy Jennings wrote:

Going to a movie theater is lazy and bad, but going to "the theater" to see a live production is culture, and is good (unless it is the Rocky Horror Show <g>).

Been there; been bad.

It's true, about live theatre.  We thought of seeing Music Man for Keith's birthday, but he wants to go to Colorado with a friend of his instead, and we don't have it on DVD.  A DVD (if it's even on DVD, the 60's film version) would be $20 or maybe much less.  Our whole family seeing it would be $160 or much more.  Yeah, it would be fun to see live, but that's very expensive.

I love DVDs.  I love the "chapter" skips and the pause and the subtitles.  I LOVE the "making of" and previews of other DVDs, and that they don't take too much room on shelves and that they don't need to be rewound.

Live theatre's good too.  Kirby is kind of in a play.  He's not, but he's learning a script and going to rehearsals.  But it's going to be a movie, not a play.  I hope if it works out that we can get it on DVD and show it at the conference in fall, or maybe it will be for sale online.   Or maybe it will never be finished.    So while they're rehearsing and discussing their characters' motivations and deciding how to act and move and speak and respond, it's art for sure.  It's educational.  Once it moves to movie-making, it enters the questionable world of flicks, editing, dark rooms, spilled sodas, making out in the back row (or steaming up windows at a drive-in) and all KINDS of questionable-to-immoral associations.  

People just don't make out in the back row at Music Man.

Sandra

[amyLS]

Sandra said:"Some mom reading here might

look up and smile at her child, or touch his head softly, or turn off
the compute and go watch him build with Lego, or go with him to the
park to throw a frisbee for the dog. Maybe without this list she
would've told him to just go do something else because she had to fix
dinner."

.... I'd just like to say that the cumulative effect of reading this
message board has been much like Sandra said. Saying 'sure!' when my
youngest one asked if we could get the Chocolate Lucky Charms, getting
up when my kids say 'Hey Mum, look at this...' (instead of...'hold on,
I'm doing something'). The insights and vignettes on this board have
been very valuable to my family... good writing!

[Willa Ryan]

>>But it's WAY more real than the writing that goes into books.  Those who write books are writing for hypothetical people. >>

 

Books are theoretically *supposed* to be read interactively.   There's all sorts of lesson plans and articles online about "active reading" and how the good reader brings prior knowledge into play, asks questions of the book, uses metacognitive skills etc.  Ironically, this knowledge of what makes a good reader is then almost directly controverted by expecting the reader to use these skills to answer one-right-choice questions and squelch the metacognitive issues like: Why do I have to read this book, anyway??

 

But books CAN be read passively, while this kind of reading/writing we do online encourages and rewards interactivity in several ways.   As you point out.  We get immediate feedback if we're reading it right (or wrong) and a chance to apply principles concretely and immediately in our lives, and then return for follow-up.  Plus, it's very social and can be done with very little logistical inconvenience.  And it's completely free, potentially -- no one HAS to say anything, or be anywhere, unless they want to. 

 

There probably is a place for passive reading too, like passive watching or fishing or whatever.  Internet surfing.... input.  Free-ranging.   I think part of the reason I was such a bookworm in childhood was just to retreat and not have demands put on me.  I used to read the same books over and over again, like stepping out into a garden where I knew every stone.

 

Willa

 

[Sandra Dodd]

On Apr 14, 2006, at 3:03 AM, Willa Ryan wrote:

I used to read the same books over and over again, like stepping out into a garden where I knew every stone.

That is beautifully phrased.  I never thought of it that way, and it's perfect.  And the quietness of a garden fits the reason I would slip into the same books again during stressful times, as a kid, instead of choosing new ones.   

Christopher Lee read Lord of the Rings every year from the year it came out.  He had told Tolkien himself that if they made a movie he wanted to play Gandalf.   Years passed and they made him play Sauraman. <g>  But he had to know those books better than anyone else there, because not only is he some kind of linguistic genius, but he had read it through so many of the ages of his life, with so many different perspectives.

If someone reads a book repeatedly (my most-read is probably Slapstick, by Kurt Vonnegut, or maybe parts of Zen Lessons).  I used to do that read-the-Bible-every-year readings when I was a kid.  There's a calendar in a very common edition of the King James Bible, so you can read just a few chapters a day and have the whole Bible read again, on schedule, every year.

Those things are respected, "discipline" in reading, and the love of a book.  Knowing a book forward and backward makes one cultured.   

Holly has just lately, at 14, started to see how different a movie or story or book can be from a different perspective.  Her first pass at that is noticing the puns and the sexual references in cartoons and movies that little kids thin of as being for little kids.  Bugs Bunny; Animaniacs; Adventures in Babysitting.  Same with song lyrics.   She has some other stages coming, as do I.  I saw some things differently after I had experienced the loss of a serious relationship, and after my dad died.  LOTS of literature and art played out differently in my head once I had children.  I'm starting to get the old-lady perspective on some things now.  When a character mentions that most of his friends are dead, I'm starting to really believe that that could happen to me.   With my kids all casting their eyes out into the world more and more, I really notice literary or artistic treatment of the relationships between young adults and their parents, and about empty nests.     Someday widowhood will jump out at me, and lots of things I've read or seen might need another pass.

Knowing every word of the movie version of The Rocky Horror Picture Show just isn't as respected as knowing every word of Pride and Prejudice, or Tom Sawyer.  Being a musical sort of person, though, I can't help but see it as not only easier to dance to, and sing along with, and hum while I'm driving, but with it's whole movie-watching alien premise, it's more about the world in the time that I lived, instead of the 19th century stuff that was the good-old-days of my great-great-GREAT-great grandparents.  And though I have read those books, I wouldn't want to live there.  (The BBC Pride and Prejudice with Colin Firth, on the other hand, is a damned nice place to visit.)

I have watched dozens of times the move El Cid.  It's not even easy to come by.  I wore out a two-VHS set, and the soundtrack was never good in the first place even though it has great music.  I have a Chinese DVD of it now.   It's complicated, and I first saw it when I was ten, and saw it as much as I could thereafter.  I used to rent it to to show my students, when I had to rent it on movie reels.  Three reels, and using a fragile, funky movie projector the school owned.  But that just makes me an eccentric weirdo.  If I read the original poem every year (even in translation), I'd be some kind of intellectual. <g>  But the movie's better than the poem (even though some of the female costumes questionable).  

Rent is out on DVD.  Holly prefers the original Broadway cast soundtrack and is about at the point that she can do every nuance of every line.   

  

A couple of weeks ago, Entertainment Weekly listed it #1 on their weekly Top 10 DVD Sales chart.  It didn't even appear on the top ten rentals.  The person who writes the intro had an opportunity to say something real and important, but missed totally.  The comment made was "The Broadway hit got mixed reviews in its bow, topping sales but hitting only No. 12 in rentals."

"MIXED REVIEWS"!?    I think not.  It was #1 the first week it was released, and people didn't WANT to rent it, they wanted to own it.  The #1 rental was Saw II.    Some of the people who rented it won't even watch it all the way through, but not so many want to own it forever and ever, and nobody will be singing any songs in the shower.

I would've never rented or borrowed a Beatles album, when  they were new.  Music needs repetition.

So do gardens, come to think of it.  Seeing one once is not much better than looking at a postcard.  Knowing the changes in it over the seasons, and seeing what comes back and what's new is really KNOWING.  No one who hears music once, reads a book once, watches a movie once, can really know it.

Sandra

[Laura Endres]

I used to read the same books over and over again, like stepping out into a garden where I knew every stone.

I, too, thought this was phrased beautifully, and this thread and my morning seem quite related. 

 

I have a 9 yr old child who reads Calvin & Hobbes and Garfield books every day, over and over, owning several, checking them out from the library, borrowing some from Grandma, keeping a few in the car, the backpack, all over the house.  I recently found a Garfield trivia book at a used book sale and he could answer all the questions, easily.  He has only finished one chapter book though, ever.  And he's begun dozens.  He reads the first chapter, or two, or very rarely three, but never finishes them.  I don't know why, he doesn't know why.  He says they bore him, and he also doesn't care for having chapter books read to him or listening to them on tape. 

 

I smile when I see him with his books though, because he just gets so much enjoyment out of them.  All winter long he makes a 'nest' under the woodburner (yes, under).  He lays under it with a blanket, and spreads his books, tracing paper, yu-gi-oh cards, etc, in front of him and stays there for hours (actually, the nest is almost always there whether he's in it or not!).  He shares snippets of the books constantly, has tried new foods because of what the characters eat (the latest, lasagna :-), and he is always asking me to define this or that word because Calvin and Garfield are quite articulate, doncha know.

 

My mom has taken to buying Garfield books on half.com for mega-cheap and now has quite an impressive array on her bookshelf.  When we visit - often - he goes straight to the shelf and sits on her couch and reads.  Every time.  It's his ritual, and my mom loves it.

 

Now this morning, I saw my new-ish digital camera sitting nearby, and feeling inspired by some delightful pictures on a friend's blog, I thought how I should really just shoot more photos and get better at it.  Shortly after, I turned to see the most delightful misty morning view out my back windows (our rural view spans some 25 miles).  So I went out and got some really amazing photos (if I do say so myself) of the mist in the fields and a beautiful ray of sunshine pouring down from behind a cloud. 

 

A few minutes later I went out again to feed the cat, noticed the change in the scene, and took another photo.  All morning I've been taking photos of nearly the same scene, just 15-30 minutes later each time.  The effect is really very captivating.

 

That would likely be categorized as a worthwhile project by some, but my son's rereading of the same Garfield books again and again and again is also captivating.  It certainly is for him.  His love of Garfield and his antics bring great, great joy to his life. 

 

Time for another picture...

 

Warmly,

Laura in IL

 

 

*~*~*~*~*~*
"When it appears that there is no choice, some form of illusion is operating."  ~Deepak Chopra
*~*~*~*~*~*

[Ann05]

There probably is a place for passive reading too, like passive
watching or fishing or whatever. Internet surfing.... input.
Free-ranging. I think part of the reason I was such a bookworm in
childhood was just to retreat and not have demands put on me. I used
to read the same books over and over again, like stepping out into a
garden where I knew every stone.

*********
I'm glad you posted this. My children often like to re-read a book
after I have just finished reading it to them. I often wondered why
thye would wnat to, I thought it seemed boring, and intrepreted it as
their not feeling like they had enough interesting choices. Now I see
it with a whole new perspective.
Ann

[Sandra Dodd]

On Apr 16, 2006, at 10:02 AM, Ann05 wrote:

 My children often like to re-read a book

after I have just finished reading it to them.  I often wondered why

thye would wnat to, I thought it seemed boring, and intrepreted it as

their not feeling like they had enough interesting choices.  Now I see

it with a whole new perspective.

I think with newish readers, there's another thing too.  If a big book might be daunting because they're afraid they'll come to words they don't know or not be fluent enough to keep the plot and characters straight, reading a book with which they're familiar will be like hiking a marked trail instead of setting off through the brush not knowing where the cliffs are.

Sandra