Pacenti Pari Moto vs Compass Loup Loup Pass

[David Cummings]

I did some google searching and saw a lot of cross-seeding between forums but I came here because it is 650b specific.  I seem to be able to come to the following conclusions:

1) Both Pari Moto standard 38mm version (PM) and Loup Loup Pass (LLP) extralight share the same tread profile (both made by Panaracer?).

2) LLP has thicker tread that provides longer life.

3) Thicker tread likely explains why the extralight LLP is 333g while the standard PM is 300g.

Why I'm writing this: I got into 650b right at the end of the riding season around here and haven't gotten to ride my Pari Motos more than 20 miles of forest service road (another 20 of paved), but I love them. I also have a pair of Soma B Line 38s and didn't like them as much - not the same "floating" feeling I got with my PMs (perhaps because they actually measure out to ~35mm? or is it thicker tread?).  

For those who have ridden both the LLP and the PM, do they seem to "feel" the same?  If so, my second pair of 650b tires may be the LLP.  

On the other hand, I don't do thousands of miles every year - maybe 1000 if I am very, very lucky (two kids, two working parents, six months of winter, yada yada...), and it is spread out among a handful of bikes.  I plan to do as much dirt/gravel as possible with these tires, but will likely do so no more than 50% of the time (have to ride asphalt to get to gravel). So perhaps the PM would be fine for me after all?

Oh, and BTW, I did a one mile hill climb on a mostly packed dirt hiking trail and it blew my mind how well the PMs climbed on my '88 Specialized road bike compared to an old diamond-tread, lugged sidewall tire of similar width on my MB-1 (the PMs were better).  So I'm fully convinced that the tread will work well for me; I don't need deep tread.

Thanks for your input,

David Cummings

Kalispell (9 months of good sledding, 3 months of bad sledding) MT

[Philip Kim]

I've had Parimoto 42's and Baby Shoes, pretty comparable. The Baby Shoes were a little more supple, as my Parimotos have "gravel casing". The Baby Shoes also were a true 42mm while the Parimoto were closer to 40-41mm. I'm assuming this would apply the same to 650bx38 sizing as well. If you have the regular Parimotos, it might be close ride. While the LLP has thicker tread, the Parimotos are still a great deal at less than $40 per tire. I believe Boulder bikes were selling them close to $35 a tire not too long ago.

I have the Compass Switchback Hills EL on another bike, and those things are plushh! Well worth the money.

[Tony DeFilippo]

I've got a couple months on the Parimoto 38's preceded by a year plus on the EL Hetre 42's and some concurrent riding on EL Stampede Pass 700x32's.  Maybe it's successful marketing but I find myself feeling like I wish I'd sprung for the Compass EL's in 38mm.  The Parimoto's are awesome and certainly haven't held me up a bit but I do feel like the EL Hetre/Compass tires have just a bit more plush to them for whatever that is worth.

I got two pairs of PM 38's for less than the cost of a single pair of EL Compass 38's btw which was the deciding factor for me. So I'll have LOTS of time to think about those EL's as I wear down the PM's over the next couple years... :)

[Jan Heine]

I don't want to add to the marketing, but just provide some technical facts: The Compass Extralight tires use a very different casing from the Pari-Motos. This casing usually is reserved for Panaracer's high-end tubulars. It has thinner threads, but instead of going for an ultra-high TPI, they are woven a bit looser to make an even more supple tire. I am sure you'd easily notice the difference if you ride the two back-to-back.

The Pari-Motos are great tires, but they still suffer from the initial compromises Kirk made when he designed them as "event tires" with a very thin tread. It appears that to keep the tires comparable, Panaracer opted for a similarly thin tread for the new 42 mm-wide version. You get much less life than a Compass tire, but since they also don't use the Extralight tread, you don't get quite the speed or the "plush" feel.

On the other hand, Panaracer sells the Pari-Motos at a very competitive price, so the cost-per-mile probably is similar to that of a Compass Extralight. You can't really go wrong with either tire.

Jan Heine

Compass Bicycles Ltd.

www.compasscycle.com

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[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/30/2015 11:40 PM, Tony DeFilippo wrote:

I've got a couple months on the Parimoto 38's preceded by a year plus on the EL Hetre 42's and some concurrent riding on EL Stampede Pass 700x32's.  Maybe it's successful marketing but I find myself feeling like I wish I'd sprung for the Compass EL's in 38mm.  The Parimoto's are awesome and certainly haven't held me up a bit but I do feel like the EL Hetre/Compass tires have just a bit more plush to them for whatever that is worth.

I got two pairs of PM 38's for less than the cost of a single pair of EL Compass 38's btw which was the deciding factor for me. So I'll have LOTS of time to think about those EL's as I wear down the PM's over the next couple years... :)

I had Pari Motos when the first came out.  At 1500 miles, my back tire looked like this:



It turned out there really was no further tread life left.   That's not bad for an "event tire," but as much as you ride I'd be surprised if it took you 2 years to wear your tires out.

[David Cummings]

Thoughts about casing were rattling around in the back of my mind as I researched tires, but didn't coalesce into a useful question when I first posted. This piece of info really helps completes the full picture of the differences in tires. I don't at all feel that knowing the difference in casings is marketing hype.  Thank you, Jan. 

In that same vein, I would respectfully submit that (without making direct comparisons to other brands) this casing information be added to the technical specifications of the tire or the overall description of Compass tires. Perhaps I'm just nerdy that way, but I like to know as much about my products as possible (and then hash them out in forums ;). 

And thank you all for sharing your real world experiences - it has been most helpful. I have a few months before winter relents to save up the best. Have a happy new year!

David Cummings

Kalispell, MT

Sent from Dave's rockin' iPhone

[Nick Favicchio]

I rode BSP ELs for a while, then switched to pari motos. Price was too good not to try. I got ~2000 miles out of my rear before it was truly and completely dead.

I've come to feel like I don't need the extra float of the 42 v the 38. Personal preference, I like to feel a bit more planted and between frame compliance and cushy saddle, 38 does it for me.

I do feel like the pari motos are quicker as well but who knows. And then there is the price difference as Jan pointed out.

They're both amazing tires. You're not gonna go wrong either way :)

[mitch....@gmail.com]

On Thursday, December 31, 2015 at 3:46:26 PM UTC-7, Nick Favicchio wrote:

I rode BSP ELs for a while, then switched to pari motos.  Price was too good not to try.  I got ~2000 miles out of my rear before it was truly and completely dead.

I've come to feel like I don't need the extra float of the 42 v the 38.  Personal preference, I like to feel a bit more planted and between frame compliance and cushy saddle, 38 does it for me.  

I do feel like the pari motos are quicker as well but who knows.  

Pari Motos quicker than the BSP ELs... That might be the difference between the 42mm vs the lighter smaller 38mm cross section. 

I'd be interested in feeling that size difference. I'll have to see if the P-M are still on sale or get a pair of the LoupLoupPass EL.

________how I changed my mind about TPI...

When BQ and Jan started publishing about supple tires a few years ago, he explained one of the problems with current tires was the high max. psi ratings tires had/have, even mtb tires intended for low pressures. 

High threads-per-inch-count, TPI, was a suppler way to get that casing strength for high pressure (high TPI cloth is suppler than low TPI thick-threaded cloth), and we've been hearing about high TPI tires since the 80s. Even since, cycle tire marketing has tended to equate high TPI with suppleness. That might be generally true for a given high max. psi rating, but what never seemed to be considered was why have such a high max psi rating. Why does a tire need to be overbuilt to handle high pressures that aren't needed for fast riding, and aren't desirable for riding? Maybe manufacturers are worried riders will fill their tires at the gas stations compressor and burst the tire. Or maybe it's liability--the legal dept requires them to overbuild  tires just in case.

Apparently the thin-threaded more loosely woven cloth Jan mentioned above has the advantage of being more supple than standard cloth casing, both coarse threaded and thin threaded high TPI, and it's only drawback is the tires have a lower max psi rating. This shouldn't be an issue in how we use them since the low max psi is still twice the psi that I actually use for the tire, in the case of BSP EL. Maybe tandem use gets close to the limit; that's where you might use pressures close to the rated max psi. I suppose a high TPI could have a side wall strength advantage too, but I'd have to be having sidewall failures for that to be an issue. 

--Mitch

[Max]

This is splitting hairs territory, but would the lower thread density (with finer thread, albeit) imply that a greater proportion of the casing is taken up by the rubber? If so, wouldn't that increase the amount of damping (loss) at a given pressure? I can see how it would feel "supple", but I'm guessing it would result in more rolling resistance?..

I guess it's almost always a trade-off between comfort and rolling resistance.

[Jan Heine]

That is an interesting question. The answer is that the threads are much stronger and stiffer than rubber. For a given thread thickness, the more threads you cram into a given space, the stronger and stiffer the fabric (casing) gets. If you had no threads, you'd have something very similar to an inner tube, with very little stiffness.

Jan Heine
Compass Bicycles Ltd.
www.compasscycle.com


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[Jeff Bertolet]

Looks like J&B importers started stocking the Pari Motos in 38 and 42 mm widths so they are more widely available than previously (though they are not in every J&B warehouse, so shipping might take a couple days). Most bike shops should be able to order them.

[Nick Favicchio]

Fwiw, the pari moto is marketed now as a 1.5" or a 1.75". Both my pari moto 1.5" and Quasi-Moto 2" measure damn close to advertised size.

I've also read elsewhere that the 1.75" comes in slightly bigger than the BSP, which you'd expect since that's sold as a 42. I've no personal experience but Ive read and would expect the new 1.75" pari moto is more like a 44.

Something to consider if your clearances are tight.

[Theodor Rzad]

I'm < 100 miles into my foray into 650b (a conversion experiment w/ my 56cm Nordavinden). I'm running 42mm Pari-Motos on VO Diagonales.

At 45psi, they measure 40.5mm on the 25mm (outside to outside) rim. I expect them to relax a little wider of course.

I chose the PMs over BSPs mainly after a conversation w/ the Panaracer rep at NAHBS this year. He said the PM would be more durable as a commuter tire.

This doesn't jive with Jan's comments, nor my experience so far. I've already have a glass-puncture (at mile 4 on the way to work). For comparison, I have yet to flat in ~1000 miles on some Barlow Pass ELs (half the mileage urban commuting) or my Cayuse Pass ELs (only ~200 miles or so).

I like that I got the PM pr. for $75 shipped and think they feel good. I'll of course go with BSPs next time though!

[Jim Bronson]

I have done Randonneuring rides on both Pari-Motos and LLP Standard.  The Pari-Motos feel ever so more sprightly, but the flat rate for me was unacceptable on the Pari-Motos.  During one 600K in 2014 I had 5 flats and was down to my final tube with 126ish miles to go.  Had I gotten another flat I would have been patching tubes, which needless to say in a timed event is not something you want to be doing unless you are extremely proficient patching tubes.

Later that same year I did a 1000K on many of the same roads using LLP Standard with both tires having 1000+ miles on them and only had 1 flat.  One other time I stopped to change with about 80 miles till the finish because the tire looked low.  As it turned out, it was just a matter of not having had pumped up the tire since before the event began, I discovered later, because I reused the same tube for several months with no modifications.

Anyway, in my experiences I'd rather carry just a little more weight for many, many less flats.  Of course, YMMV.

Jim

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[Jeff Bertolet]

maybe the Panaracer rep meant the gravel casing version.

[Nick Favicchio]

+1 on Jeff's comment.

Can't compare to LLP, but my BSPs seem better w/r/t flats than my 1.5 PMs. I have a ~3000 mile pari moto that I think I'm gonna eek a few more miles out of as a front tire on a townie bike but might just cut in half. The center tread feels very thin. I have a BSP EL that's been flat free for... jeez, a very long time. To contrast, had a horrible epic battle with a brand new pari and an sl23 that literally wounded me. Crossed my fingers hard that I'd not have to deal with that painful business for a while and ~20 miles later, yea, big wood staple. Thank goodness for tubeless goo in a tube. Had to pump it back up 3 or so more times but still fine. That was 100 or so miles ago. No issues since.

[Andrew Fatseas]

Out of the PMs, BSP and Hetres that I've tried the Hetres were by far the most puncture resistant. Not quite as nice a ride as the Compass tyres but still very good. 

[Nick Bull]

I've had the opposite experience: Hetre least puncture resistant, then PM, then BSP.

I think that's because the grooves in the Hetre's have more of a tendency to pick up road debris and hold onto it for a revolution or two, particularly on wet roads.  The PM and BSP don't seem to pick up as much stuff, but the PM's thinner rubber is naturally less puncture resistant.

On Saturday, May 14, 2016 at 12:51:56 AM UTC-4, Andrew wrote:

Out of the PMs, BSP and Hetres that I've tried the Hetres were by far the most puncture resistant. Not quite as nice a ride as the Compass tyres but still very good. 

On Saturday, 14 May 2016, Theodor Rzad <tsr...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm < 100 miles into my foray into 650b (a conversion experiment w/ my 56cm Nordavinden). I'm running 42mm Pari-Motos on VO Diagonales.

At 45psi, they measure 40.5mm on the 25mm (outside to outside) rim. I expect them to relax a little wider of course.

I chose the PMs over BSPs mainly after a conversation w/ the Panaracer rep at NAHBS this year. He said the PM would be more durable as a commuter tire.

This doesn't jive with Jan's comments, nor my experience so far. I've already have a glass-puncture (at mile 4 on the way to work). For comparison, I have yet to flat in ~1000 miles on some Barlow Pass ELs (half the mileage urban commuting) or my Cayuse Pass ELs (only ~200 miles or so).

I like that I got the PM pr. for $75 shipped and think they feel good. I'll of course go with BSPs next time though!

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[satanas]

Hmmm, okay. I toured in Europe mostly on Hetres last year and never looked like having a flat, even on very rough surfaces, in lots of rain, etc. No cuts, nothing lodged in the tread, and not all that much wear - virtually nil on the front. They were very stable too, with no significant slippage - totally unlike the Soma GLs also used at times.

To be fair, I always actively avoid glass and visible debris, but even the Somas didn't flat much - except twice just before and after the end of PBP (extremely difficult to fit and remove from PL23s) and once when a huge thorn went through the side when I leaned the bike against a hedge.

I'd happily buy more Hetres, or else BSPs next time; the Somas not so much. YMMV.

Later,
Stephen

[Theodor Rzad]

Great point; that's probably the case. Admittedly, I didn't call the online retailer to determine the casing on the PM's I ordered, either. I'll be installing some tire wipers to get me through my expected 1000-1500 mile lifespan at least!

[Mike Klaas]

I had several flats with Pari-Motos when I first installed them (no gravel casing; ultra-lite schwalbe tubes), though the ride quality was great.  All the flat were of a slow-leak variety: very gradual pressure loss, and tricky to find the puncture since they were so small.

Since putting an ounce of Stan's in each tube, I haven't had a flat in hundreds of miles.  IMO this should be standard operating procedure for anyone running pari-motos.

[Mick]

When running the Schwalbe ultra light tubes.  Be sure to check that the valve core is good and tight in the valve casing.  I have had several slow leaks that were the result of the core being a little loose.  Plus if you use  Lezyne pump that screws on to the valve core it can loosen them and give you the slow leak.   Seems if I take a new tube and tighten the valve core as much as I can, I avoid the issue for the most part.

Mick

On Wednesday, December 30, 2015 at 3:43:19 PM UTC-5, David Cummings wrote:

[Stephen Poole]

On 23 May 2016 8:31 pm, "Mick" <linco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> When running the Schwalbe ultra light tubes.  Be sure to check that the valve core is good and tight in the valve casing.  I have had several slow leaks that were the result of the core being a little loose.

All of mine have been like this - it is essential to ensure Schwalbe cores are tight. Slow - or rapid! - deflation is likely otherwise.

Caveat emptor,
Stephen

[Joseph Kopera]

Have had similar experiences with Hetres: have split the casing under the tread on 3 separate tires over about 800 miles on mixed pavement and gravel. I love their handling and ride quality but after talking w/ several other folks on Twitter and Flickr a consensus seems to be emerging that Hetres are very flat prone for heavier (>200 lb) riders, with many of us having the split-casing issue. Lighter riders I know seem to be able to ride their Hetres forever with nary a flat.

Right now running BSPs. 200 miles in and they're wonderful, although the black tread throws my bike's entire color sche,e off. ;-) They're not the advertised 42 mm on my VO Diagonales (25mm: tires measure 39 on my bike) but perhaps they have a bit more relaxing to do, or they were designed to be that width on a 23mm rim.

This thread is great-- I was looking at getting PM's as they're cheaper but it looks like I'd go through them just as fast as the Hetres, based on what folks are saying.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 07/03/2016 12:21 AM, Joseph Kopera wrote:
> Have had similar experiences with Hetres: have split the casing under the tread on 3 separate tires over about 800 miles on mixed pavement and gravel. I love their handling and ride quality but after talking w/ several other folks on Twitter and Flickr a consensus seems to be emerging that Hetres are very flat prone for heavier (>200 lb) riders, with many of us having the split-casing issue. Lighter riders I know seem to be able to ride their Hetres forever with nary a flat.

I've been using Hetres for about 7 years, and in that time the lightest
I've ever been has been 200, the heaviest about 214, and mostly around
205. The bikes with Hetres typically get on average around 3,000 miles
per year, so at least 20,000 total miles. I had one tire with a split
in the casing, immediately replaced under warranty (and even that
happened only after I'd put a couple of thousand miles on the tire). In
my experience, these are the very last tires I'd call "very flat
prone." I've had my share of flats, but they're infrequent and always
from obvious causes, mostly pieces of glass although once a sharp piece
of stick on the C&O Canal Towpath did for a tire with at least 3,000
miles on it and virtually no tread thickness left in the center of the
tire (the "ribs" had been worn off for at least 1500 miles at the time).

If you want to see a flat-prone 650B tire, I'd suggest the original 1st
generation Pari Moto. Those started off with very little tread
thickness, and in my experience were worn out by about 1,500 miles. The
PM has since then been considerably modified, with puncture-resistance
belts, etc, so I'm not sure if 1st gen experience is relevant any longer.

[DanB]

I've been using the new 42mm Pari-Moto without the puncture resistance for about 1600 miles now without a flat.  I've used them on brevets, mixed terrain rides and a couple commutes through the city.  While part of that is probably just good luck, they're great tires (fast and plush) and are still holding up well.  I have the Loup Loups on my other bike and love those just as much.