New Surly Midnight Special Road+

[satanas]

Info here, with links to blog and specs:

https://mailchi.mp/fddbe755c95f/the-surly-midnight-special-our-kind-of-road-bike?e=b6f875f8b0

Looks interesting, and is supposed to clear 60-584 tyres.

Later,
Stephen

[Karl Sanchez]

In a similar (but not too similar) vein, All-City released a drop bar 650b bike as well, dubbed the Gorilla Monsoon.

https://www.bikerumor.com/2018/02/17/city-gorilla-monsoon-storms-27-5-drop-bar-monster-gravel-build/

It's interesting to note how these two Quality brands carefully stagger their bike designs to avoid excessive overlap.

In particular, the GM has clearance for 2.4" tires whereas the MS has clearance for 47mm. GM has more stack and less reach for a given size along with a slacker headtube and more trail versus the MS. Both have similar mounts, but per each brand's identity, the GM is generally more ornate and prettier while the MS is more utilitarian looking. The GM would seem to be a great "gravel grinder" or a "monster cross" bike whereas the MS is totally an "all road bike." The former blends more MTB elements onto a dropbar platform whereas the latter is more of a road bike with more tire clearance.

[Karl Sanchez]

Edit: My mistake, the Midnight Special can clear 584-60 tires but comes stock with 584-47. The Gorilla Monsoon just comes stock with 27.5x2.4" tires.

[satanas]

I think a Midnight Special fork might be in my future; pity it won't clear 65 or 70mm. The biggest difference is that the GM has ISO/PM brakes, while the MS is flat mount. Flat mount will take PM calipers (with adapters), but not vice versa.

[Cary Weitzman]

Karl Sanchez wrote:
> In a similar (but not too similar) vein, All-City released a drop bar
> 650b bike as well, dubbed the Gorilla Monsoon.
>
> https://www.bikerumor.com/2018/02/17/city-gorilla-monsoon-storms-27-5-drop-bar-monster-gravel-build/
>
> It's interesting to note how these two Quality brands carefully
> stagger their bike designs to avoid excessive overlap.

Very interesting.

The Surly is possibly the first mass market 650b specific mid-trail
bike! 56mm with a 16mm flop.That's the same as my Stanyan conversion
with 650bx38 and I like it a lot.

Not sure why the BB is so high though. Designed around 47mm tires they
could have easily gone with a 70 mm drop.

The All-City is a more common 65mm trail, 20mm flop bike. Much more
gravel oriented.

On the other hand I really like the aesthetics of the All-City. Could be
the new touring bike I STILL haven't bought? Procrastination For The Win!

I get the flexibility that the 44mm head tube offers on the Surly, but
man does it look ungainly with the 1 1/8 steerer fork.

Cary
PTBO.ON.CA

[satanas]

I think maybe with Surly's emphasis on offroad and utility use they expect lots of people to use flat pedals, so more clearance might gain brownie points from their constituency; most of the bikes in their "dump" blog pix seem to have flats. The Gorilla has 71.5mm drop, which is getting there. FWIW, Specialized have been saying their latest Diverge with 85mm drop(!) is okay with 47-584 (only), or else 622. There might be some sort of legally mandated minimum BB height for production bikes though, like there is a minimum for tyre clearance (6mm).

Later,
Stephen

[Adem Rudin]

I'd say the Gorilla Monsoon crashes straight through "monstercross" into "rigid mountain bike" territory. Comes stock with 2.4" wide tires; that's what we've all been running on our mountain bikes for the past 10 years! 73mm wide BB shell, 15mm thru-axle... all from the mountain bike world, and complete overkill for "gravel". That's not to say I don't like it: If I didn't already have a bikepacking rig that I'm happy with, I'd be sorely tempted to build up a bikepacking rig on the GM frame.

I'm not a huge fan of the Midnight Special - why does Surly insist on coming up with their own weirdo dropouts? And the straight-44mm headtube is my least-favorite aesthetic feature on modern steel frames. I know they need a bigger head tube to allow for carbon forks with tapered steerers, but tapered head tubes look so much better than giant straight ones...

-Adem Rudin

Mountain View, CA

[David Parsons]

On Saturday, February 17, 2018 at 6:56:03 PM UTC-8, Adem Rudin wrote:

I'm not a huge fan of the Midnight Special - why does Surly insist on coming up with their own weirdo dropouts? And the straight-44mm headtube is my least-favorite aesthetic feature on modern steel frames. I know they need a bigger head tube to allow for carbon forks with tapered steerers, but tapered head tubes look so much better than giant straight ones...

Tapered HTs are really expensive compared to straight ones (Henry James sells a couple of them for $51, but unless you go with the super-high-end steel alloys a comparable straight HT is around $20.) 

[Stephen Poole]

Tapered head tubes are complicated too, both to machine and to understand which headsets fit. I'm not convinced tapered gives any more options eithet, for instance I think Anglesets fit 44mm head tubes but maybe not tapered. Anyway, I almost suffered brain damage trying to work out what headsets might fit a tapered head tube with a tapered and/or a straight fork. 44mm is way simpler. And cheaper. And it matches the tyres.  ;-)

Later,

Stephen

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[mitch....@gmail.com]

On Saturday, February 17, 2018 at 12:55:43 PM UTC-7, Cary Weitzman wrote:

Karl Sanchez wrote:
> In a similar (but not too similar) vein, All-City released a drop bar
> 650b bike as well, dubbed the Gorilla Monsoon.
>
> https://www.bikerumor.com/2018/02/17/city-gorilla-monsoon-storms-27-5-drop-bar-monster-gravel-build/
>
> It's interesting to note how these two Quality brands carefully
> stagger their bike designs to avoid excessive overlap.

Very interesting.

The Surly is possibly the first mass market 650b specific mid-trail
bike! 56mm with a 16mm flop.That's the same as my Stanyan conversion
with 650bx38 and I like it a lot.

Nice development, and maybe VO gets some credit for using mid-trail in this general category early on (Camargue and Piolet)?

I like mid-traill in his category too. 

 

Not sure why the BB is so high though. Designed around 47mm tires they
could have easily gone with a 70 mm drop.

The All-City is a more common 65mm trail, 20mm flop bike. Much more
gravel oriented.

On the other hand I really like the aesthetics of the All-City. Could be
the new touring bike I STILL haven't bought? Procrastination For The Win!

Also really like how the All City looks-- clean road bike but also rigid mtb (per Adem) at the same time.

The big 71.5 BB drop helps both sides. 

If it had the Surly's mid-trail, it might be the most versatile bike around--capable of almost any road performance riding. As it is it's kind of locked in for gravel. Or maybe loaded tourer like you say.

I'm confused about the All City geometry chart. They don't mention effective top tube length, and from context of those measurements I'm assuming those are c-c TT measurements of the tube itself, not the effective horizontal line(?)

Also they don't say whether the seat tube length is c-c or c-top. 

The next development in this class of bikes needs to be: two fork options, 45mm and 65mm offset, your choice ;-)

--Mitch 

[Adem Rudin]

David, Stephen: Yeah, I know that straight 44mm head tubes are significantly cheaper than tapered head tubes, and I'm sure that's why Surly (and many others) spec them. I still find them visually offensive when paired with comparatively skinny top and down tubes. Sigh...

I've never had issues with spec'ing headsets on tapered head tubes. It's no more complex than having to deal with tapered steerers... As long as the manufacturer properly describes the head tube, there's no confusion.

-Adem

On Saturday, February 17, 2018 at 7:26:42 PM UTC-8, satanas wrote:

Tapered head tubes are complicated too, both to machine and to understand which headsets fit. I'm not convinced tapered gives any more options eithet, for instance I think Anglesets fit 44mm head tubes but maybe not tapered. Anyway, I almost suffered brain damage trying to work out what headsets might fit a tapered head tube with a tapered and/or a straight fork. 44mm is way simpler. And cheaper. And it matches the tyres.  ;-)

Later,

Stephen

On 18 Feb 2018 2:08 pm, "David Parsons" <grr.g...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Saturday, February 17, 2018 at 6:56:03 PM UTC-8, Adem Rudin wrote:

I'm not a huge fan of the Midnight Special - why does Surly insist on coming up with their own weirdo dropouts? And the straight-44mm headtube is my least-favorite aesthetic feature on modern steel frames. I know they need a bigger head tube to allow for carbon forks with tapered steerers, but tapered head tubes look so much better than giant straight ones...

Tapered HTs are really expensive compared to straight ones (Henry James sells a couple of them for $51, but unless you go with the super-high-end steel alloys a comparable straight HT is around $20.) 

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[David Parsons]

On Saturday, February 17, 2018 at 8:22:59 PM UTC-8, Adem Rudin wrote:

David, Stephen: Yeah, I know that straight 44mm head tubes are significantly cheaper than tapered head tubes, and I'm sure that's why Surly (and many others) spec them. I still find them visually offensive when paired with comparatively skinny top and down tubes. 

I find on that sort of machine (650b fatbike) that they look better than skinny headtubes because they harmonize with the fat tires and ridiculous frame/fork clearances    (this will not stop me from using a skinny headtube when I braze up my 650b gravel(r)(c)(tm) frame, but it's the thought that counts.)

[Stephen Poole]

Adem et al: Is it actually possible to fit both tapered steerer forks and straight 9/8" forks ib a tapered head tube with just the appropriate crown races for each fork? I assumed it ought to be but couldn't figure this out from the documentation on Cane Creek's website; I know it's possible with 44mm. I could just as easily get a tapered head tube on the new frame - if I can be convinced it will work. I find both about equally offensive in appearance with smallish tubes, but 36mm head tubes looked huge when they came out too...

Later,

Stephen

[Adem Rudin]

Sure. Normal 1-1/8" steerers generally take a 30mm lower crown race. Cane Creek sells EC44/30, EC49/30, IS52/30, ZS44/30, ZS49/30, and ZS56/30 lower assemblies.

So let's take my Santa Cruz Chameleon: Uses an IS41/IS52 headset. With an IS41/28.6 upper and IS52/40 lower, I run a 1.5" taper suspension fork. If for some reason I wanted to run a fork with a straight steerer, I could swap the lower assembly for an IS52/30.

IMHO the most elegant way to do a tapered steerer on a steel bike is with an EC34/EC44 head tube - EC34/28.6 upper assembly (1-1/8"), and EC44/40 lower assembly (1-1/2") - see the Crust Dreamer, for example.

-Adem

[Igor Belopolsky]

The All City looks nice IMO. The Surly is appealing, but once again both bikes are a no go for me as they have yet to change their geometries to appease me LOL

[nash...@gmail.com]

I think the salsa would be awesome built as a flat bar mtn bike 2x10 with hydro brakes. Non suspension corrected 2.4" tires, thru axles, simple brazeons and dropouts, threaded bb and straight headtube. Sorta ticks all my personal boxes.

[nash...@gmail.com]

I mean the All-City of course :)

[Winston Lumpkins]

The Midnight is similar to the 650b straggler...  

More modern compatible I guess & slightly lower trail...  56 for the midnight vs. 64 for the Straggler.  

The Midnight has a lower BB, a longer wheelbase & a shorter head tube, at least in 52cm.  

[Stephen Poole]

The Waltly tapered head tubes are 46/56 OD & 42/52.1 ID - everything appears to be internal, unlike the Dreamer; they're closed till the 22nd for Chinese New Year holidays so that's all I know.

If I could figure out the hydraulic hose routing it might be useful to have both the Rodeo Labs Spork 1.2 and a Midnight Special fork; it's internal by default on the Spork.  :-(

On 18 Feb 2018 6:15 pm, "Adem Rudin" <adem....@gmail.com> wrote:

Sure. Normal 1-1/8" steerers generally take a 30mm lower crown race. Cane Creek sells EC44/30, EC49/30, IS52/30, ZS44/30, ZS49/30, and ZS56/30 lower assemblies.

So let's take my Santa Cruz Chameleon: Uses an IS41/IS52 headset. With an IS41/28.6 upper and IS52/40 lower, I run a 1.5" taper suspension fork. If for some reason I wanted to run a fork with a straight steerer, I could swap the lower assembly for an IS52/30.

^ I presume the bearings and/or cups inside the frame don't actually need to change, and the only part that actually needs to be different is the crown race. If that's not so, then knocking out the lower half of the headset and swapping it is way too much trouble to do other than for a permanent switch.

Later,

Stephen

[John Speare]

On Saturday, February 17, 2018 at 7:49:30 PM UTC-8, mitch....@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, February 17, 2018 at 12:55:43 PM UTC-7, Cary Weitzman wrote:

Karl Sanchez wrote:
> In a similar (but not too similar) vein, All-City released a drop bar
> 650b bike as well, dubbed the Gorilla Monsoon.
>
> https://www.bikerumor.com/2018/02/17/city-gorilla-monsoon-storms-27-5-drop-bar-monster-gravel-build/
>
> It's interesting to note how these two Quality brands carefully
> stagger their bike designs to avoid excessive overlap.

Very interesting.

The Surly is possibly the first mass market 650b specific mid-trail
bike! 56mm with a 16mm flop.That's the same as my Stanyan conversion
with 650bx38 and I like it a lot.

Nice development, and maybe VO gets some credit for using mid-trail in this general category early on (Camargue and Piolet)?

I like mid-traill in his category too. 

 

I'm pretty sure Rawland dSogn was 55mm. I ran that with big fat Neo Motos and it was great fun off road. Front load, not so much.

Pre-dates all these bikes. I got mine in Aug 2008. 

[Louis]

I've been looking at pics of the Midnight Special. Oddly, some pics show an obviously sloping top tube; however in some pics it appears to have a flat top tube. I do realize that views from  different angles can give this impression, but I'm talking about straight drive side camera shots. 

Louis Pastor

confused in Norton Ohio

[Adem Rudin]

Louis: Eyeing the geo charts, it looks like the larger frames have a toptube that is closer to level than the smaller frames. I haven't punched any numbers into BikeCAD yet, but it looks like 56cm and above should be level(ish)

-Adem Rudin

Mountain View, CA

[Louis]

Thanks, Adem. I've been trying to convince myself that I need another bike. At 5'6" I  would likely fall into the sloping tt category. Bummer. 

[Adem Rudin]

Here's a quick line drawing of all the sizes, based on Surly's published geo chart - precise angles of the top tube slope may be a little off as I'm guessing at how much head tube and seat tube project above the top tube (the "geo charts" the brands publish rarely, if ever, give you enough information to make a real print). But we can see that the 64cm has top tube that is the closest to level, the 60/58/56/54cm all are roughly at the same angle and slope a wee bit more compared to the 64cm, and then the 50/46/40cm each have a top tube that slopes more than the last.

-Adem Rudin

Mountain View, CA

[Cary Weitzman]

Review of the Midnight Special just posted on The Radavist:

http://theradavist.com/2018/02/the-surly-midnight-special-is-truly-a-fat-tire-road-bike-morgan-taylor/

Cary
PTBO.ON.CA

[Jeff Bertolet]

Got a chance to look at the MS in person.

The through axle isn’t really TA. It is the worst of both worlds. See attached pics.

-Torque spec is 16 Nm, tough with a multi tool.
-dropout doesn’t surround axle so axle can move in dropout.

I find this design choice baffling.

[Harald Kliems]

On Thursday, February 22, 2018 at 6:14:37 PM UTC-6, Jeff Bertolet wrote:

The through axle isn’t really TA. It is the worst of both worlds.  See attached pics.

-Torque spec is 16 Nm, tough with a multi tool.
-dropout doesn’t surround axle so axle can move in dropout.

I find this design choice baffling.

As the Radavist review put it aptly: "I’m not sold on the convertibility of the dropouts but it’s a very Surly thing to do." Versatility/backward compatibility at the cost of functionality. Which may suit some BOBs with a large stash of nice non-TA wheels quite well.
 
 Harald in Madison (WI)

[Daniel MacPherson]

 There a write-up at the radadvist today. Some good pics. 

 http://theradavist.com/2018/02/the-surly-midnight-special-is-truly-a-fat-tire-road-bike-morgan-taylor/#4

[Brad]

I am curious why higher flop is preferred for gravel.
We can share a reference ride- Simcoe Island from the ferry to the lighthouse and back.

[Stephen Poole]

Who even thinks about flop - unless it's to do with crappy films? The real issue IMHO is stability from trail - plenty of it makes holding a line on dodgy surfaces much easier mentally.

[Steve Palincsar]

Actually, in my experience most everyone who is interested in low trail has that interest because they have had issues related directly to flop.  Plenty of it makes climbing at slow speed, especially with a load on the front, really tricky because the bike is so desperately unstable, seeking to dart off sideways of its own volition.

-- 
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia 
USA

[Stephen Poole]

Desperately unstable?!? We'll have to agree to disagree on that one as I've never experienced it whilst climbing, versus plenty of problems at more normal speeds with low trail.

On 26 Feb 2018 9:14 am, "Steve Palincsar" <pali...@his.com> wrote:

Actually, in my experience most everyone who is interested in low trail has that interest because they have had issues related directly to flop.  Plenty of it makes climbing at slow speed, especially with a load on the front, really tricky...

[snip]

...because the bike is so desperately unstable, seeking to dart off sideways of its own volition.

^ Which is how I'd describe trying to follow a wheel in a paceline on a low trail bike, especially after having ridden a few hundred km. And then there's shimmy.  :-(

Later,

Stephen

[Steve Palincsar]

I've had two bikes dart across the road at 90 degrees to the direction of travel as a result of that wobbling instability.  As for "problems at more normal speeds with low trail" -- I've never encountered anything even remotely like that.  But, we've had this conversation before.  And I'm still mystified.  To me there's nothing more natural than the handling of my low trail bikes.  No shimmy, no trouble at all following a chosen line.  I don't paceline, but I do love to ride on what Jan calls "the fog line" (we don't call it that here, perhaps because we don't have very much fog, certainly nothing like what they have in the Pacific Northwest).

[Randall Daniels]

High flop bikes on gravel with slicks are a handful when fast cornering since they require so much more lean to get around the turn - riding much more on the side of the tire with the feeling of instability that comes with it. Low trail is faster and easier as it's more turning and less leaning - riding more over the center of the tire.

Similar concept to riding a mountain bike with drop bars or flat bars. I think more wheel flop for gravel bikes makes them worse at riding on gravel. 

[Stephen Poole]

And I'm mistified (or perhaps fogified) that anyone can easily go in a straight line on something like a GR; I certanly couldn't, or at least not without constant attention.

I'm reminded of that famius Scottish song, "You take the low (trail) road and I'll take the high (trail) road..."

As for "darting instability" I submit the AM with 17" wheels as a classic example. Want to look over your shoulder? "Do you feel lucky, punk?"

Later,

Stephen

[David Parsons]

On Sunday, February 25, 2018 at 2:01:30 PM UTC-8, satanas wrote:

Who even thinks about flop - unless it's to do with crappy films? The real issue IMHO is stability from trail - plenty of it makes holding a line on dodgy surfaces much easier mentally.

    A low trail machine doesn't hold a line as well as a medium to high trail machine, so it takes more input to wrestle the thing back from falling over the flop cliff.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 02/25/2018 06:21 PM, Stephen Poole wrote:
> And I'm mistified (or perhaps fogified) that anyone can easily go in a
> straight line on something like a GR; I certanly couldn't, or at least
> not without constant attention.

We must ride totally differently.  For me, it's just point it and it
goes, no trouble at all riding in a straight line.  Like I said, on the
fog line (which is only a few inches wide) for as long as there's
adequate room to the right of it and no debris, no problem.

>
> I'm reminded of that famius Scottish song, "You take the low (trail)
> road and I'll take the high (trail) road..."
>
> As for "darting instability" I submit the AM with 17" wheels as a
> classic example. Want to look over your shoulder? "Do you feel lucky,
> punk?"

My AM is far more stable climbing at slow speed than either my
Rambouillet or my Saluki were.

[Steve Palincsar]

What is a "flop cliff"?

[Jeff Bertolet]

Where you can do a belly flop while cliff diving.

[satanas]

This discussion is weird; I've never had any of the problems reported here by others with non-low-trail bikes. Turning is usually easy if one is not on ice, IME. Controlling low trail over-reactions and nervousness is not, for me anyway. I don't like celery either, so there! ;-P

Later,
Stephen

[David Madina]

So a little off topic but didn’t feel the need to start a new thread for this... I have an old lemond Zurich and cross check that I’m thinking about selling to fund a midnight special. I’m also thinking it’d be too much overlap with the nfe I currently use as a commuter... thoughts?

[Daniel Jackson]

I don’t think the discussion is weird - though it is a bit off topic. My experience with low vs high trail fat tire machines is identical to Steven P’s. Low trail bikes climb straight at low speeds. High flop machines do just that - flop around. Which is why I am interested in the Surly MS. A mid trail design with steep HTAs at the larger sizes minimizes the flop common to high trail machines. Best of both worlds? A geometry to finally subdue Satanas’s obsession with trashing low trail (aka a mis-specced Soma POS GR?)

[David Parsons]

On Monday, February 26, 2018 at 11:55:59 AM UTC-8, Daniel Jackson wrote:

I don’t think the discussion is weird - though it is a bit off topic. My experience with low vs high trail fat tire machines is identical to Steven P’s. Low trail bikes climb straight at low speeds. High flop machines do just that - flop around. Which is why I am interested in the Surly MS. A mid trail design with steep HTAs at the larger sizes minimizes the flop common to high trail machines. Best of both worlds? A geometry to finally subdue Satanas’s obsession with trashing low trail (aka a mis-specced Soma POS GR?)

Satanas isn't the only person here who's dubious about low trail woo.   (And holy cow the MS is NOT medium trail. With a 50mm tire that machine needs to be size huge to get the trail down into the /50/s -- I've got less trail and flop on my 700c sweet fixie than the size huge MS does.)

[Stephen Poole]

FYI, I'm not obsessed with trashing low trail any more than others here are with saying it's the answer to life, the universe and everything - but the correct answer to that is, of course, 42. What I am keen to do is to point out to anyone who stumbles upon this group that people's experiences and tastes vary, and that caution is thus advised, evangelism notwithstanding. In my experience, *nothing* is going to suit everyone, no matter how much any particular person(s) may praise or revile it.

Caveat emptor,

Stephen (who thinks certainty only properly belongs to scientific theories, and then only until they are revised or disproved)

[Mark in Beacon]

satanas wrote: In my experience, *nothing* is going to suit everyone, no matter how much any particular person(s) may praise or revile it.

Except, of course, the Paleolithic Diet. Of course. Happy trails to all.

[mitch....@gmail.com]

On Monday, February 26, 2018 at 1:49:49 PM UTC-7, David Parsons wrote:

....And holy cow the MS is NOT medium trail. With a 50mm tire that machine needs to be size huge to get the trail down into the /50/s...

He's right.

Checking Surly's Pacer geometry (since they say it's meant to be like a Pacer with fat tire clearance), the Pacer has a bit steeper head angle (a bit earlier in the size range anyway) and has 5mm more fork offset. 

The 58cm Pacer has 56mm of trail--classic mid-trial--with 622x31 (same diameter as 584x50). The 58cm Midnight Special has 64mm of trail--classic high trail--with 584x50. 

Not that there is anything wrong with that. And I'm not doubting Surly's or Morgan's Radivist review that the MS handles like a quick handling road bike. But it's a pretty different trail number.

--Mitch

[Stephen Poole]

It's best not to generalise too much with the MS. Up to 54cm has 50mm offset, 56 up has 40mm, and then there are head angles from 71.0 to 74.0°. Just two sizes share a head angle. I noticed too that the 54 has a slightly longer wheelbase (and thus front centre) than the 56; I'd pick the 54 due to that, not that I'll be buying one.

Later,

Stephen (whose new bike might have similar trail to one size of the MS)

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[rcnute]

It's the new Bicycling.

Ryan

[Randall Daniels]

I very much doubt a steel bike running 650bx47 Horizons is going to handle like a road bike. Re-reading the article it seems like some hand-waving for marketing sake and then some confusion if the bike was reviewed with Horizons and then photo'd but not ridden with Switchbacks? I'd believe it if they were on BSPs but larger 650b is obviously a lot slower feeling, especially the Horizons. Surly isn't magic and the frame isn't going to make those tires better than they are.

[David Parsons]

On Tuesday, February 27, 2018 at 10:21:49 AM UTC-8, Randall Daniels wrote:

I very much doubt a steel bike running 650bx47 Horizons is going to handle like a road bike.

It's not going to /accelerate/ like a road bike, thanks to the 500+ gm on the edge of each rim, but that high trail geometry will hold a line really well and respond to body english like basically any other road bike.

[William Lindsay]

Maybe I'm the only one, but the Surly does nothing for me, and the All-City Gorilla Monsoon looks amazing, to me.  I called Huckleberry in Berkeley, (California, USA) and they plan to stock the Gorilla Monsoon complete bike, on the floor and ready to ride.  So, if you are a Bay Area person and want to ride a Gorilla Monsoon, it looks like Huckleberry is your....um....Huckleberry.

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Saturday, February 17, 2018 at 8:44:02 AM UTC-8, Karl Sanchez wrote:

In a similar (but not too similar) vein, All-City released a drop bar 650b bike as well, dubbed the Gorilla Monsoon.

https://www.bikerumor.com/2018/02/17/city-gorilla-monsoon-storms-27-5-drop-bar-monster-gravel-build/

It's interesting to note how these two Quality brands carefully stagger their bike designs to avoid excessive overlap.

In particular, the GM has clearance for 2.4" tires whereas the MS has clearance for 47mm. GM has more stack and less reach for a given size along with a slacker headtube and more trail versus the MS. Both have similar mounts, but per each brand's identity, the GM is generally more ornate and prettier while the MS is more utilitarian looking. The GM would seem to be a great "gravel grinder" or a "monster cross" bike whereas the MS is totally an "all road bike." The former blends more MTB elements onto a dropbar platform whereas the latter is more of a road bike with more tire clearance.

[Paul S]

Thank you for the photos of the front dropouts.  Very illuminating.  The Radavist mentions that conventional quick release wheels will work with an adapter of some kind.  Did you happen to get a look at those or get any idea of how the quick release adapters will work?  It's bad enough that the TA implementation is so compromised, but if they compromised the QR as well, then this truly is the worst of both worlds.  I hoping I can at least view this as a QR bike with some accommodation for TA if you happen to need that compatibility.  But if I have to go through some cumbersome procedure even to mount a QR wheel, that's really bad.

On Thursday, February 22, 2018 at 7:14:37 PM UTC-5, Jeff Bertolet wrote:

Got a chance to look at the MS in person.

The through axle isn’t really TA. It is the worst of both worlds.  See attached pics.

-Torque spec is 16 Nm, tough with a multi tool.
-dropout doesn’t surround axle so axle can move in dropout.

I find this design choice baffling.

On Thursday, February 22, 2018 at 4:37:49 PM UTC-5, Cary Weitzman wrote:
> Review of the Midnight Special just posted on The Radavist:
>
> http://theradavist.com/2018/02/the-surly-midnight-special-is-truly-a-fat-tire-road-bike-morgan-taylor/
>
> Cary
> PTBO.ON.CA

[Jeff Bertolet]

It looks like these adapters will fit. They could remain on the skewer, so should not be too cumbersome.

[Ian Strader]

As a PNW guy I'm never going back to low-trail after wrecking my Ravn cause I turned my head to the right for 1 second too long and crossed lanes to the left inadvertently.

[Bill M.]

I managed to fall off of my Nordavinden once, I was removing my gloves and twitched the bar a bit, wound up lying in the plowed dirt next to the road.  Soft landing, no harm to me or the bike.  Hitting the pavement would have hurt.

Bill

Stockton, CA

[Sukho Goff]

Honestly after a few years of daily riding low trail bikes, I can't say I'm a fan. My mid-higher trail bikes ride great. Front loaded or not. Slow or fast. I almost feel like some kind of weirdo for not "getting it" but I don't know, it just feels like a solution looking for a problem for me. What I do like, though, are the gorgeous Frenchie-flick curves of LT forks (and the compliant ride). But handling? Meh..
Sukho in PDX