Velo Routier Toussaint

[Bob Cooper]

I am trying to advise a friend about alternatives to the Velo Routier Toussaint, i.e,. framesets that compete in the same niche.

He has a short acquisition horizon, and he cannot find the frameset or complete bike in the size he wants.

Any advice appreciated,

Bob Cooper

[Steve Palincsar]

On 01/24/2015 08:31 PM, Bob Cooper wrote:
> I am trying to advise a friend about alternatives to the Velo Routier
> Toussaint, i.e,. framesets that compete in the same niche.
>
> He has a short acquisition horizon, and he cannot find the frameset or
> complete bike in the size he wants.

The Soma Grand Randonneur, obviously; and the Boulder, although it's in
a different price range.

[rob perks]

What size is your friend looking for?  I am biased, but only have smaller Rambler frames on hand at the moment.  Aside from the Soma GR, there could be Rawlands floating around out there.  If in Seattle Free Range Cycles has a variety of brands and sizes in the niche, some built and ready to go.  There is also the Soma conversion fork that could be paired to a Soma, All City or other similar cross frame that may get you in the right direction on a budget.  

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Rob Perks

oceanaircycles.com

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[Bill Romano]

I would recommend the Velo Orange Polyvalent. I got one to replace my Grand Randonneur that developed a crack in the fork. I am very pleasantly surprised by the quality of the Polyvalent. From the finish, welds, features and build quality to the great ride characteristics it's top notch.

[Tony DeFilippo]

Funny a Polyvalent just came up on local c-list... I don't really need another bike but it is a tempting price.  Bill how do you have your's set up?

[Bill Romano]

Here's a photo of my Velo Orange Polyvalent Tony. Set up in a fairly standard Rando way. Like this it is very stable. No wobble with hands off the bars. I like the horizontal dropouts. I've got the rear wheel back as far as it will go, adding more stability, made my home-made "spring thing" so I can get the wheel in and out and still have a good fender line. It works nice.

[aztris]

Wow, very nice! Similiar to how I've planned out my current polyvalent build. I originally wanted RH cranks too, but thought they might outclass/out price the rest of the bike, but you've got me reconsidering...

[Tony DeFilippo]

Nice looking bike Bill, thanks for sharing!

[Bill Romano]

Ha! I guess when you add up the cost of the R. Herse crank, SKF bb and Peanut Butter knife wrench, it exceeds the amount that I got the Polyvalent for during the sale they had before the holidays. Still, this functional (first!), beautiful, light, strong, low q-factor crank/bb interface is worth every penny!

[Steve Palincsar]

On 02/04/2015 06:12 AM, Bill Romano wrote:
> Ha! I guess when you add up the cost of the R. Herse crank, SKF bb and Peanut Butter knife wrench, it exceeds the amount that I got the Polyvalent for during the sale they had before the holidays. Still, this functional (first!), beautiful, light, strong, low q-factor crank/bb interface is worth every penny!
>

Full retail for the componentry necessary to build up a frame will
typically run you anywhere from $1300 to $3000. There are quite a few
very nice frames that are less than half the smallest of those numbers.

[Jim Bronson]

I just built up my wife's new Soma GR frame for less than $700 total,
if you don't include the cost of the not so gently used by me
wheelset.

I decided 32h was not sufficient for my randonneuring pursuits, so the
wheelset sat around for a while and now goes to my wife.

I think for the 20-40ish mile rides she will be doing, it's sufficient.

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Keep the metal side up and the rubber side down!

[Jim Bronson]

Err I mean, it's new to her. The frameset is used.

[somervillebikes]

I easily spent on components as much as I did for the full custom frame I hung them on, and it's not unusual for me to spend more on the component build for a bike than the frame.

Anton

[Steve Palincsar]

On 02/04/2015 09:53 AM, Jim Bronson wrote:
> I just built up my wife's new Soma GR frame for less than $700 total,
> if you don't include the cost of the not so gently used by me
> wheelset.

You don't get away without wheels. And of course, I was speaking of
new, not used parts.

[Bill Romano]

Nice looking build-in-progress Jim. Are the fenders cream Longboards? Or something else?

[Bill Romano]

It's hard to tell from the photo but I've got Simplex Retrofriction shifters and Paul Neo-Retros on the Polyvalent too. It's a lot easier for me in my current situation to build up a nice group over time buying a part here and a part there than to plop down a big chunk on an expensive frame or complete bike. Wheels are next!

[Rob Riggins]

With all the really nice tires available, I've been spending a large amount of money on trying new ones before the old ones have worn out. This results in a pile of tires worth nearly what my current frame cost.

Rob

On Wed, Feb 4, 2015 at 8:37 AM, Steve Palincsar <pali...@his.com> wrote:

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Rob Riggins

[aztris]

On Wednesday, February 4, 2015 at 7:28:49 AM UTC-8, Bill Romano wrote:

It's hard to tell from the photo but I've got Simplex Retrofriction shifters and Paul Neo-Retros on the Polyvalent too. It's a lot easier for me in my current situation to build up a nice group over time buying a part here and a part there than to plop down a big chunk on an expensive frame or complete bike. Wheels are next!

Too funny, my plan exactly. I picked up the polyvalent during the sale as well. Also doing retrofriction, skf... and probably back to my original plan of RH cranks. Instead of Paul's, I just finished up restoring some Mafac Criterium Super Deluxe. Some before and after fun...

[Jim Bronson]

The fenders are Tanaka aluminum, powder coated to match the GR frames,
from the Somafab web store. MSRP $59.99, but there was a 20% off
post-Christmas sale with free shipping so I got them during that sale.
Such a deal for metal fenders, barely more than the Longboards.
They're not quite as nice as the Honjos but for the price, I have no
quibbles.

On Wed, Feb 4, 2015 at 9:17 AM, Bill Romano <wrom...@optonline.net> wrote:
> Nice looking build-in-progress Jim. Are the fenders cream Longboards? Or
> something else?
>

[Jim Bronson]

True, but if they were collecting dust in the garage, it's a win to
find something for them to do, and no, ahem, "additional" cost.

[Chris Cullum]

On Feb 2, 2015 5:48 AM, "Bill Romano" <wrom...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> I would recommend the Velo Orange Polyvalent. I got one to replace my Grand Randonneur that developed a crack in the fork.

What's up with the cracked fork? I would assume Soma would warranty that? The new forks are different with more of a pleasing bend compared to gen 1.

I am very pleasantly surprised by the quality of the Polyvalent. From the finish, welds, features and build quality to the great ride characteristics it's top notch.
>

[Bill Romano]

I'm the second owner so no warranty coverage. I asked anyways. Sometimes a company will stand behind their product no matter what. No dice. So I asked them if I could buy a replacement fork. Nope. They are all with frames and they were unwilling to seperate one. They did offer me an unthreaded fork to buy as a replacement. But I didn't want to go that way. It would have ended up costing more with an unsatisfactory aesthetic.

[Chris Cullum]

On Feb 4, 2015 3:11 PM, "Bill Romano" <wrom...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> I'm the second owner so no warranty coverage. I asked anyways. Sometimes a company will stand behind their product no matter what. No dice. So I asked them if I could buy a replacement fork. Nope. They are all with frames and they were unwilling to seperate one. They did offer me an unthreaded fork to buy as a replacement. But I didn't want to go that way. It would have ended up costing more with an unsatisfactory aesthetic.
>

That's rather disappointing.

[Greg Walton]

Where did the fork fail?  Do you know what caused it?  Seems awfully early.

Greg

[Bob Cooper]

I suppose that that is one of the benefits of buying from a company that sets a price structure with a margin so large that they can afford to warranty almost anything.

LL Bean, Patagonia, Rivendell come to mind.

[Jan Heine]

At 3:40 PM -0800 2/4/15, Bob Cooper wrote:
>I suppose that that is one of the benefits of buying from a company
>that sets a price structure with a margin so large that they can
>afford to warranty almost anything.
>
>LL Bean, Patagonia, Rivendell come to mind.

It's actually much cheaper to warranty stuff that is cheaply made, no
matter what price you sell it for.

Take a Rivendell custom, where Rivendell probably pays the builder
somewhere around $ 1800-2000 to make the frame, another $ 500-800 to
paint, then shipping between builder, painter, Rivendell. The cost
(without the time spent figuring out the specs) is pretty high.

Compare that to Bridgestone, where an MB-3 frame, painted and
decaled, cost less than $ 10, boxed and ready to go at the loading
dock in Taiwan. That is an actual figure... and I don't think it's a
company secret any longer.

That was 23 years ago, but even if prices have quadrupled since, it
was easy for mass producers to offer warranty replacement frames "no
question asked". When you read the warranty terms of big bike
companies, you see that the cost of labor to switch the parts over is
not included in the warranty coverage. That is actually the expensive
part.

Soma and other companies getting small runs of budget frames made in
Taiwan are somewhere in the middle. I don't think I am at liberty to
talk about the cost of these frames, but it would be much less of a
loss for them to offer a replacement fork than for Rivendell.

Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly
http://www.bikequarterly.com

Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/
--

[Jim Bronson]

I mostly agree with what you've said here.  However, the cost of switching parts over really isn't that huge compared to the cost of the same Rivendell Custom you mentioned, and if you're handy, it's zero.

On Feb 4, 2015 6:07 PM, "Jan Heine" <hei...@earthlink.net> wrote:

At 3:40 PM -0800 2/4/15, Bob Cooper wrote:

I suppose that that is one of the benefits of buying from a company that sets a price structure with a margin so large that they can afford to warranty almost anything.

LL Bean, Patagonia, Rivendell come to mind.

It's actually much cheaper to warranty stuff that is cheaply made, no matter what price you sell it for.

Take a Rivendell custom, where Rivendell probably pays the builder somewhere around $ 1800-2000 to make the frame, another $ 500-800 to paint, then shipping between builder, painter, Rivendell. The cost (without the time spent figuring out the specs) is pretty high.

Compare that to Bridgestone, where an MB-3 frame, painted and decaled, cost less than $ 10, boxed and ready to go at the loading dock in Taiwan. That is an actual figure... and I don't think it's a company secret any longer.

That was 23 years ago, but even if prices have quadrupled since, it was easy for mass producers to offer warranty replacement frames "no question asked". When you read the warranty terms of big bike companies, you see that the cost of labor to switch the parts over is not included in the warranty coverage. That is actually the expensive part.

Soma and other companies getting small runs of budget frames made in Taiwan are somewhere in the middle. I don't think I am at liberty to talk about the cost of these frames, but it would be much less of a loss for them to offer a replacement fork than for Rivendell.

Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly
http://www.bikequarterly.com

Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/
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[Jan Heine]

I agree that if you do the job yourself, it's not a big deal.

Most warranty replacements are handled by bike shops, and at the normal shop rate, switching the parts costs more than a $ 40 frame. And the shops usually are not compensated for the labor, but few will try to pass it along to the customer!

Jan Heine
Editor

Bicycle Quarterly

http://www.bikequarterly.com

Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/

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[Bill Romano]

Hey Greg, I suppose everybody would like to see where my fork failed. So I will post the same photos here that I sent to Soma. To be honest, I'm not sure of the extent of the failure, but seeing the crack here around the area where the left dropout is connected to the fork had me worried. I didn't want to ride it like this. Soma agreed that I should not ride it like that. The fork is with Groody Bros. in Kansas City now. I am hoping that they can sand blast it, repair it and repaint it. I'm waiting on their assessment. There were no crashes or big impacts. I had just returned from a wet ride and was cleaning and drying the bike off and noticed it. Every thing was fine with the frame up until that point. To me it looks like the dropout was starting to separate from the fork blade at the weld.

 

 

 

[Joe Broach]

Funny, I actually had a fork with similar problems fixed mid-ride! I'd bought a Univega Alpina MTB and on its inaugural ride it kept feeling like the hub or QR was loose. Eventually, I noticed what you photographed--the dropout wasn't properly brazed and was flexing in the fork! In hindight, I think it was actualy just a poorly adjusted hub, but I was convinced it was about to fall apart. Amazingly, there was a welding shop along the highway, and the guy re-brazed both dropouts for me for $20, all the cash I had brought with me. He said it was a nice change from welding pipe all day. I finished that ride and many more before passing it on to someone else.

I'm shocked that Soma wouldn't warranty that when it's so obviously a manufacturing defect. I'd try to talk to someone else there--too bad Evan B. moved on.

Best,

joe broach

portland, or

[Eric Keller]

To be honest, that's recall-campaign-worthy.  Soma was nuts not to beg for that back. Hopefully that person worked slowly, and they didn't put very many of those out there before they learned how to braze that joint or got moved to another operation. 

[Charlie Cho]

Merry Sales stocks a threaded Grando fork; have your LBS ask about part
#23201. Dunno about the threaded/unthreaded steerer length.

[shawn b]

Just curious as to why not going with the Velo Routier? I was thinking about one for a future build.

-Shawn

On Saturday, January 24, 2015 at 5:31:29 PM UTC-8, Bob Cooper wrote:

I am trying to advise a friend about alternatives to the Velo Routier Toussaint, i.e,. framesets that compete in the same niche.

He has a short acquisition horizon, and he cannot find the frameset or complete bike in the size he wants.

Any advice appreciated,

Bob Cooper

[Sven-Olof Johansson]

Oh, great. Another possible failure mode to worry about. :)

Did the bike suddenly feel different when riding, or is this something you discovered when you washed the bike?

/s-o

[Rob Riggins]

I recall that Bill is not the original owner. I've never experienced a retailer who warrantied something for anyone other than the original owner. 

Why is it recall worthy? To justify a manufacturer's recall, they'd need to see a pattern of the same defect. We don't have that information.

Rob

--

Rob Riggins

[Will Morris]

The biggest sticking point for me is the Velo Routier doesn't have enough spacing to safely use a 42mm tire with fenders. 

I asked Cycles Toussaint, and they said you can squeeze them in, but they don't recommend it. 

- Will

[Eric Keller]

For me, this is such a dangerous situation that at least an inspection of all of them is warranted.  Product liability and warranty are two separate issues.  There is no way a user could cause this failure.  That fork was well on its way to failure, and it almost surely would be an ugly one.  The fork on my fat bike is being recalled, and nobody has heard of any failures afaik. 

I know when I did field support engineering, people would whine about failures but they never thought about sending me a bad part.  If that really is a machine brazed fork, they really need to work on their processes.  A bad fork would be worth a lot, unless they know about it already and just don't care.

On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 8:56 AM, Rob Riggins <rigt...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Erik Jansen]

Will, check with Free Range Cycles in Seattle - I built up a Velo Routier when I worked there and installed 50mm Berthoud Fenders on it no problem. I can't remember if we put hetres or the Soma B-Lines (38mm) on it, but with the 50mm Berthouds, it'll fit the hetres just fine with decent clearance.

The only thing about the Velo Routier that would give me pause is the brazed-on center pull brakes. They're great, but you're basically locking yourself into using either Diacomp or old Mafac brakes. You can't even use the Paul centerpulls because they mount on cantilever width studs.

[Greg Walton]

There are plenty of manufacturers who stand behind their products, regardless of ownership.  There may a duration to the warranty, but changing hands makes no difference.  Here's an industry example -- I bought a newish second hand SRAM X9 rear derailleur last year and the clutch failed not long after.  I took it in to my LBS, they sent it to SRAM and I had a new one a week later, no receipt, no questions asked.  Needless to say, I'm a bigger SRAM fan than I was before that experience, it was an exceptional customer experience.

On the flip side, I'm somewhat shocked that SOMA/Merry Sales has fallen back on the technicality of "second owner" for what is clearly a defect on a low mileage product.  I really don't understand the rationale for shucking the responsibility on this, and standing behind a "policy," when the product they put out the door (in this instance) was flawed from the get go.  That's offloading the burden to the customer and it's the opposite of exceptional customer service, in my book.

They should frankly be thankful that Bill is a diligent guy and and spotted this while off the bike, if the the dropout had separated from the fork blade on a pot hole impact, it would not be pretty.

Greg Walton

[Bill Romano]

I looked at the Velo Routier as a possibility before I pulled the trigger on the Polyvalent. One reason I didn't get it was purely aesthetic: I didn't want another white bike! The brakes had me hesitant too and would have been an additional expense since I had a really nice set of canti's ready to put on whatever I got. As an aside, would the new Compass brakes work on the Velo Routier? When it came down to it I really wanted braze-ons for a third water bottle under the down tube. The Polyvalent has them. And money was tight as I wasn't expecting to buy a new frame right before the holidays, VO's sale lured me in.

[Kieran Joyes]

Personally, I think the Polyvalent is far more appealing than the Velo Routier. The aesthetic touches and the frameset as a whole looks more cohesive and classic to me. The Toussaint has a few aesthetic issues that turn me off.

I sure wish VO made the Polyvalent in a super-big size (ie. 66cm) but I get why they don't/can't. I emailed them to propose adding an XL size option and the response basically was 'maybe but probably not'.

KJ

[Mark Bulgier]

Once when I was a young beginner bike mechanic, during the early-70s bike boom, I was assembling a Raleigh Grand Prix and noticed that one front dropout didn't have much or any brazing filler evident.  It was chrome plated, which doesn't hide anything.  I called the boss over and asked him, and his response was "just build it" with a side helping of "and don't bother me with trivial shit like this" delivered by his tone of voice.  I said something insightful like "but... but..." and as I did I tapped once, lightly, on the fender eyelet of the dropout with the wrench I was holding.  The dropout fell on the floor.  It had been held in by the chrome plating only -- no braze filler at all!

The boss got really mad at me and said he was going to dock my pay!  He felt that I should have sent it out the door and let the customer find the defect, because by then we'd have his money.  Now we have to wait for a warranty fork from Raleigh and we're on the hook for the replacement labor, which would have been on the customer if the bike had failed after leaving the shop.  During the bike boom, the only challenge to selling bikes was getting them from the manufacturers -- they flew out the door as fast as we could assemble them.

The older, more confident bike mechanics told the boss he was stupid to blame me, and he relented on docking my pay.  I continued working there a few more years part-time while I was in high school full-time summers, and had several chances to observe other unethical behaviors.  So I wasn't too surprised a few years later when I read in BR&IN magazine that he'd been convicted of price-fixing under the RICO laws. I think he spent some time in jail.

Back to Bill R's fork and any fork with this kind of failure in the brazed joint: It's not good, but I don't think it's really all that bad either.  The joint is held shut by the weight of the rider, and as long as the opposite dropout is fully brazed, the dropout is held in place by the front wheel being clamped to both dropouts.  The tab part of the dropout that goes up inside the slot will prevent the dropout from really going anywhere.  If the joint were to completely let go, you might notice a handling deficit (or you might not), but it is very unlikely to cause a crash.  For a lot of people, the first thing they'd notice is the dropout falling on the floor when they undo the QR and take the wheel out. 

Mark Bulgier
Seattle

[Chris Cullum]

Further to the bad Soma drop out it's pretty obviously a case of bad QC/production oversight. I'm pretty surprised Soma would not warranty it. Who did you talk to at Soma? At least a new fork at cost or something as a good will gesture bearing in mind you were not the original owner.

Evan Baird of Soma/Merry Sales frequently posts here. Maybe shoot him an email explaining the failure?

[Bill Romano]

Did somebody indicate earlier that Evan wasn't with them anymore? I thought so. Either way I emailed the photo's and description to Stan Pun. That's who I went back and forth with there a couple of times.

[Steve Palincsar]

Evan posted a message a while ago saying something like it's his last
day there.

[Jan Heine]

At 10:14 AM -0800 2/5/15, Bill Romano wrote:

>As an aside, would the new Compass brakes work on the Velo Routier?

The answer is that I don't know. The specs for the Compass brakes are here,

https://janheine.wordpress.com/2015/01/29/compass-centerpull-brake-specs/

but I don't know the braze-on location of the Velo-Routier.

The Compass brakes have the same dimensions as the Mafac Raids, so if
anybody is running a set of Raids on their Velo-Routier, perhaps they
can post some photos?

Jan Heine
Compass Bicycles Ltd.
http://www.compasscycle.com

[Fred Blasdel]

On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 7:43 AM, Erik Jansen <erikr...@gmail.com> wrote:

The only thing about the Velo Routier that would give me pause is the brazed-on center pull brakes. They're great, but you're basically locking yourself into using either Diacomp or old Mafac brakes. You can't even use the Paul centerpulls because they mount on cantilever width studs.

It's a little silly though, it's not like rim brakes break!

The stock Dia-Compe brakes are perfectly fine, except for the stock grey brake pads which might as well be hard plastic.

On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 10:14 AM, Bill Romano <wrom...@optonline.net> wrote:

As an aside, would the new Compass brakes work on the Velo Routier?

Jan has claimed they do not.

The pivots are identical but the RAID spacing is 1cm wider, so the MA and aesthetics wouldn't be 'optimal' but they'd work.

The longer reach version of the MAFAC Racers would be a much better fit, and could be blinged out with the Compass hardware upgrade kit

[Chris Cullum]

On Feb 5, 2015 6:00 PM, "Fred Blasdel" <blas...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 7:43 AM, Erik Jansen <erikr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The only thing about the Velo Routier that would give me pause is the brazed-on center pull brakes. They're great, but you're basically locking yourself into using either Diacomp or old Mafac brakes. You can't even use the Paul centerpulls because they mount on cantilever width studs.
>
>
> It's a little silly though, it's not like rim brakes break!
>
> The stock Dia-Compe brakes are perfectly fine, except for the stock grey brake pads which might as well be hard plastic.
>

Dia Compe is still making them and there is pretty much an infinite supply of old Dia Compe/Weinmann center pull brakes from old bike boom 10 speeds. They work fine after upgrading to kool stop salmon pads. They are easier to set up than Mafacs but lack panache maybe.

>
> On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 10:14 AM, Bill Romano <wrom...@optonline.net> wrote:
>>
>> As an aside, would the new Compass brakes work on the Velo Routier?
>
>
> Jan has claimed they do not.
>
> The pivots are identical but the RAID spacing is 1cm wider, so the MA and aesthetics wouldn't be 'optimal' but they'd work.
>
> The longer reach version of the MAFAC Racers would be a much better fit, and could be blinged out with the Compass hardware upgrade kit
>

[Fred Blasdel]

On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 10:48 AM, Kieran Joyes <kjo...@gmail.com> wrote:

Personally, I think the Polyvalent is far more appealing than the Velo Routier. The aesthetic touches and the frameset as a whole looks more cohesive and classic to me. The Toussaint has a few aesthetic issues that turn me off.

I sure wish VO made the Polyvalent in a super-big size (ie. 66cm) but I get why they don't/can't. I emailed them to propose adding an XL size option and the response basically was 'maybe but probably not'.

I took an XL Toussaint stock build on a rigorous dirt road test ride in the Hudson Highlands on New Years Day with fairly low expectations, and was surprised that I adored it:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/waldo/sets/72157647892192383

Their XL size is extremely big, it has a ton of reach and a glorious amount of front-center because the TT gets longer without changing the angles (on most road bikes the wheelbase is nearly fixed and the angles altered to make the bikes look longer and shorter). If you want the bars up above the saddle you'd be better off sizing down, to have hope of properly weighting the front wheel.

If you're looking for a gigantic Rivendell that's what you should get, low-trail bikes don't fit the same way when super-sized. For example the 63cm Roadeo is a close match for the 57cm Toussaint!

The friction rear 10-speed shifting was flawless, it basically couldn't be out of gear and never needed trimming. The front shifting surprisingly got problematic mid-ride, both FD limit screws and the shifter preload all backed out really far!

The XL size is Surly-level stiff, but it planed for me really well, at least before the couple hours of sleep and champagne fumes I was running on were depleted. Towards the end of the ride we ended up having to hustle granola bar handups from moms in minivans, getting whatever was in the center console (four times!) — at that stage it was pedaling like a brick, but almost any bike would be at that level of bonkedness

Perhaps because of that front end stiffness, it was super easy to ride no-hands despite being so low trail, a big surprise for me!: http://instagram.com/p/xU_A7ZJZOf/

I really liked the stock cockpit setup: the quill stem is stiffer than Nittos, deep bars you don't see anymore, and non-aero levers placed perfectly. No there isn't supposed to be a modern "flat ramp" transition, that would destroy the use of the drops, the hoods are used with your thumb hooked over the body or with your fist formed around the housing.

Big thanks to 718 Cyclery in Brooklyn that let me borrow it while I was on vacation, they've got this complete and a size run of framesets for sale

[aztris]

I was really tempted to pick up a Routier. The poor front rack mount design and fit killed it for me though.

However, they are planning changes for 2015 and I believe I read (or they emailed me?) that one of the changes will be to the front rack mounting. Their latest blog post mentioned Reynolds tubing as well. Should be interesting to see what they come up with for the revised Routier.

[Mark Anderson]

On Thursday, February 5, 2015 at 8:28:19 PM UTC-6, Fred Blasdel wrote:

I really liked the stock cockpit setup: the quill stem is stiffer than Nittos, deep bars you don't see anymore, and non-aero levers placed perfectly. 

To provide a contrasting opinion, I found the stock bars and stem to be far too flexy, and replaced them with a Nitto stem and VO rando bars. I also found I could never get the FD dialed in without it rubbing on the inner crank arm, and replaced it as well. Nevertheless, I'm pretty happy with the Velo Routier, now that I've "personalized" the parts.

Mark Anderson

Liberty, Missouri 

[Fred Blasdel]

On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 8:55 PM, 'aztris' via 650b <65...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

I was really tempted to pick up a Routier. The poor front rack mount design and fit killed it for me though.

However, they are planning changes for 2015 and I believe I read (or they emailed me?) that one of the changes will be to the front rack mounting.

The racks are legitimately a hard problem, they have to clear the arms of the centerpull brakes. One solution is to mount the rack to the brakes themselves but that requires custom bolts and tight tolerances. I prefer wider platforms that reach around the brake and work much better with bags, but that's a hard sell to historical reenactors since the constructeurs used teeny tiny racks on their performance bikes.

It's also incredibly difficult to get steel racks made overseas, they're just as complicated as bike frames but without factory tooling or even tubing already being ready. We're very lucky in the US to have high quality 4130 available in small diameters off the shelf for building aircraft, none of that exists in Asia. The design of the original Toussaint racks has a bunch of little inelegant details, but it's amazing that they managed to get them made, especially for $45 retail!

[Alex Wetmore]

From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Fred Blasdel <blas...@gmail.com>

> We're very lucky in the US to have high quality 4130 available in small diameters off the shelf for building aircraft, none of that exists > in Asia. 

Do you have a source for this statement?  I know that your Kogswell prototype racks weren't made of 4130, but I don't think that means that small diameter 4130 isn't available there.

My understanding is that the 4130 rack tubing that I buy is more or less randomly sourced from mills or Germany or China.

I think that everything else that you said about getting racks made in quantity is true.

alex

[Guy Washburn]

I checked with a Merry dealer and that part number is for the 11/8th inch steerer fork not the 1 inch fork for the GR...

[Philip Kim]

How do you like the VO polyvalent ride? I was considering the Toussaint, but the centerpull and the slim clearance in the back for hetres, and high front rack killed the deal for me. I suggested they bend/dimple the stays for the new model, which they were open to, and to have the top tube be standard diameter.

I'm currently riding a camarrgue, and was surprised to learn it has standard tt with 1-1/8 dt in my 53cm size. Not sure the tube thickness though I suspect pretty stout. maybe a 9/6/9, but it rides extremely well for a touring bike. Really stable, but got some pep in its step. Great for bike camping, city riding, and just general cruising.

Is the polyvalent pretty lively ride? My concern was that it would be as stout as my camargue, and the long top tube would be difficult to add drop bars. I have a pair of 650b wheels lying around, and wanted a frame a bit more lively than the camargue for longer rides.

Thanks--Phil

On Thursday, February 5, 2015 at 1:14:10 PM UTC-5, Bill Romano wrote:

[Philip Kim]

Also to note, VO has great customer service. I had a Paul Touring canti bolt snap off into the canti studs. They let me buy a replacement fork no questions asked. Also know if there is a defect like a crack or failure they will replace it. So if I can buy through them I would much prefer it.

[Charlie Cho]

I emailed Merry Sales, who confirmed that part #23201 has a 1" threaded, 290mm long steerer sized for the 65cm frame.

They also have a 1" threadless version, ivory with canti posts, part #23398. This one has a narrower crown than the first batch of Grand Rando framesets. Not sure about the second batch. 50mm Tanaka fenders touch the inside of the fork blades. The shape is reminiscent of the Kogswell P/R fork crown.

[Elton Pope-Lance]

The confusion may be that the Champs Elysees low trail fork is part #23260 for 73mm side or centerpull brakes and part #23261 for cantilevers.  Both have a 1 3/8” threadless steerer.

Part #23201 is 1” threaded but not listed as as a low trail fork.

Elton Pope-Lance

Natick, MA

[Bill Romano]

@Charlie: it was almost two months ago at this point that I talked to Soma. But you went to Merry Sales? I know they are connected but to what extent? Perhaps I would have better luck going right to the top there at Merry. But I went to Soma. Now I am on this other road with the fork off being looked at to be repaired and repainted at less cost than a new fork. But they are being slow and unresponsive too! Is it me? I am starting to think I should have just bought the unthreaded fork that Soma had on hand and was willing to sell to me. Then I could resell the frameset at least complete with a new fork. Not being interested in going threadless my self.

@Phil: but/and besides I am loving this Polyvalent now! The top tube is a centimeter longer than the GR. I had the saddle all the way back on the GR, or close to it, I was able to get the same reach on the Poly easily. So yes, the Poly is longer there. I don't know the comparative measurements of the chain stays on the two frames, but Poly seems longer there too. And the horiz dropouts allow me the have the rear wheel back further there too. And I do! I don't know the comparative tubing specs either but the main triangle seems stouter on the Poly. The rear triangle on the GR seemed overbuilt to me. And the front triangle on the GR was too whippy under a guy my size (210lbs). The Polyvalent works really good for me. It seems to have more of that stability like a Riv for me but also some nice springiness. I have it set up as a front load rando bike though and it is straight line stable at all speeds and no signs of shim. But it is technically a Porteur. Maybe lighter riders wouldn't have the same sensations. One thing I should note is that the fenders with the 42s are a little tight. I've been able to get good clearances but not a perfect fender line. In VOs description I think they say the best fit is with 38s.

[Charlie Cho]

On 2/12/15 3:21 AM, Elton Pope-Lance wrote:

The confusion may be that the Champs Elysees low trail fork is part #23260 for 73mm side or centerpull brakes and part #23261 for cantilevers.  Both have a 1 3/8” threadless steerer.

The first fork is a bit too long for 700c rims and Tektro medium reach dual pivots. A Mafac Racer centerpull might have enough reach. Could this possibly be in the grand tradition of targeting and overshooting maxed-out medium reach sidepulls, as with the Rivendell Rambouillet and Kogswell Model P? Recalling that this fork was intended to fit the Soma Stanyan, I believe so. A future 1" version must accommodate medium reach sidepulls or, at the very least, Weinmann/Dia Compe 610 centerpulls.

Part #23201 is 1” threaded but not listed as as a low trail fork.

It's listed as a ivory Grand Rando, so it should be low trail.

[Charlie Cho]

On 2/12/15 5:45 AM, Bill Romano wrote:
> @Charlie: it was almost two months ago at this point that I talked to Soma. But you went to Merry Sales? I know they are connected but to what extent? Perhaps I would have better luck going right to the top there at Merry. But I went to Soma. Now I am on this other road with the fork off being looked at to be repaired and repainted at less cost than a new fork. But they are being slow and unresponsive too! Is it me? I am starting to think I should have just bought the unthreaded fork that Soma had on hand and was willing to sell to me. Then I could resell the frameset at least complete with a new fork. Not being interested in going threadless my self.

The Soma brand is run by the folks at Merry Sales, although other
distributors like BTI and Hawley carry Soma as well. Most brands prefer
to handle warranty matters through their dealers instead of directly
with consumers. If you have a good relationship with a shop, sometimes
they may be willing to go to bat for you on a warranty matter even if
you didn't buy the item in question from them.

[satanas]

Now you guys have got me worried! I'm just about to build up a Soma GR, but noticed that the LH canti boss on the fork is not brazed all the way around - there is a gap for ~2 mm at the inner edge, top and bottom. I'm not convinced this is terribly likely to break, and the second opinion I got, albeit from a bike shop owner not a framebuilder, agreed with mine. Still, I will photograph it and email a copy to Soma and see what they say. I'm sure if it was to break it'd be descending a 1 in 4 hairpin in the Lake District, or somewhere similar.  :-(

Later,

Stephen

[Dave Johnston]

Sometimes the gap at the Canti boss is on purpose, many canti bosses are only brazed/welded 3/4 of the way around.

-Dave

[erick]

if you have some concerns whit the soma GR, a good choice is buying from boulder bicycles, its a little more expensive, but they do all the frame prep with quality tools, that means good eyes are put in the frame before they leave the shop and they stand back their products

[Steve Palincsar]

Plus: you can get custom fit and extra light tube sets, too.

[Kieran Joyes]

I think erick means buying a GR frameset through Boulder.

KJ

[erick]

exactly

[satanas]

> On Sunday, 15 February 2015 00:40:24 UTC+10, Dave Johnston wrote:
> Sometimes the gap at the Canti boss is on purpose, many canti bosses are only brazed/welded 3/4 of the way around.

I'm more inclined to think this is due to poor quality control than deliberate intent. None of the frames I've ever seen have been like this, and that includes Australian, Japanese and Taiwanese production frames plus assorted custom frames from various places. Shoddiness isn't usually deliberate, at least when product liability might raise its head.  :-(

Later,

Stephen

PS: I agree with those who've said a custom frame would be better. That was the original plan, but time to get things done ran out due to injury, and the GR was bought as a shorter term solution. As I already have it, am in Australia, and am leaving for Europe (PBP) in <4 weeks, there is no realistic option except to take the GR and hope it doesn't fail. It probably won't, but Murphy's Law is a worry.

[Jim Bronson]

I think you meant you were leaving for PBP in 4 months?  4 weeks makes no sense, the event is in August.

[Aaron Harris]

The Polyvalent is probably the best alternative in the same price range.  The Camargue is as well.  With Tektro 720 brakes and 60mm fenders, a set of 650b wheels with Hetres fits the Camargue rather well--at least with my rims.  At any rate, for faster climbing I prefer the Velo Routier despite having to run narrower tires.  I live around hills, so that makes a big difference for me.

At the moment I have a Poly for city riding with cargo, a Camargue for off-road touring, and a Velo Routier for everything else.

On Saturday, January 24, 2015 at 7:31:29 PM UTC-6, Bob Cooper wrote:

I am trying to advise a friend about alternatives to the Velo Routier Toussaint, i.e,. framesets that compete in the same niche.

He has a short acquisition horizon, and he cannot find the frameset or complete bike in the size he wants.

Any advice appreciated,

Bob Cooper

[Aaron Harris]

Rather, the Camargue is another good option.  You can't have to best alternatives.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 02/18/2015 07:48 PM, Aaron Harris wrote:
>
> Rather, the Camargue is another good option. You can't have to best
> alternatives.

But you certainly can say "...the two best alternatives are..."

What a difference a "W" makes.

[Philip Kim]

I love my Camargue. The frame is surprisingly light, however, the fork is beefier than the Soma GR's, which is fine for me because I like front loading and riding off-road. Plus the fork is beautiful. Plus the bike rides really well. Very neutral handling bike, which I like more and more. I think my current set up is around 27-30lbs (depending on what is in my  bag) in 53cm.

I have 26x2.0 Big Bens on there, which has the similar tire diameter as 650bx42 Hetres, but more cushion and rolls well, but gives some good grip in the dirt. I mounted 650b wheelset with Hetres, but there was a lot of clearance, and I would rather have larger tire volume.

http://instagram.com/p/zNpZfIPp-Q/?modal=true

Currently debating between the Passhunter and Soma GR for my go-fast-but-be-comfortable bike.

[Aaron Harris]

Oh right, I should have mentioned the size.  Obviously 650b wheels won't work with the canti studs on the larger frame sizes.  Right now I'm using 26" wheels with a folding bead Smart Sam on the front and a wire bead Big Ben on the rear as a compromise for mixed surface riding.

[Jim Bronson]

Promax sells a slotted cantilever brake that is good for 26" to 650B conversions.

--

[Aaron Harris]

The Camargue fits 26" wheels on half the frame sizes and 29" on the other half.  Because of the generous clearances I was considering equipping Tektro 720 brakes and just swapping wheelsets between a heavy duty 26" touring set and a much lighter 650b set for randonneuring.  Then I realized that I'd have to buy a new rear hub for the 135mm spacing and rebuild my rear 650b wheel, so it started to seem like more work than just keeping a 650b frame around.

[Philip Kim]

That is exactly what I was going to do. I got the Campagnolo CX brakeset for a good deal. They also have the vertical clearance for 26" to 650b conversion. I prefer it over the CR720s, it's got a nice barrell adjuster at the end of each straddle cable. Also has a nice finish.

Instead, I just got a lighter wheelset and lighter schwalbe tubes. Also took off the Campeur front rack for a mini rack. Also got a lighter cassette, and it feels pretty much how I want it to ride. Stable, but still a bit lively. The VO frame bag is lying around for summer bike camping. Was able to sell off my Surly 1x1 and 650b converted Trek to make it my only bike.

Still want a fast-er bike. I still got the 650b wheelset lying around unused, so might be cheaper to get a 650b frame and build it than a Passhunter.

[Bill Romano]

Hi all. I feel it's my duty to give you this update on my Grand Randonneur fork. Many of you were interested and concerned with my "cracked" fork. See the photos that I posted earlier in this thread. It sure looked cracked. I sent the fork to Groody Brothers to get bead blasted, inspected, repaired and repainted. Well Groody Bros. Got back to me. They stripped the paint and very closely inspected the fork. No cracks. It's clean. I will try to post the photos that Groody sent me of the fork with the paint removed. It looks very good to me. What do you think? I wonder what caused such distinctive cracking in the paint? Some impact that I don't recall? I now plan to rebuild the Soma up with the fattest tires that will fit without fenders and use it as an adventure touring rig. The Polyvalent will be my commuter/randonneuring bike. Now I feel bad that this conversation got off onto a bit of a anti Soma vent at times. I don't think that I can post Groodys photos from my iPhone right now but I will post them as soon as I can.

[Bill Romano]

Here are the photos from Groody Bros.

[Jan Heine]

I am glad your fork appears fine. However, cracks can be difficult to
see once the paint is removed. I'd do a dye penetration test to make
sure before riding the forks.

Cracks in the paint can occur when the metal is flexed and springs
back, but the paint is too brittle to move that much. So a crack in
the paint isn't always a crack in the metal. It's often best to just
sand off the cracked paint, polish up the area, and then do a dye
penetration test to see whether it really is a crack. If it isn't
just touch up the paint and continue to ride the bike.

Jan Heine
Compass Bicycles Ltd.
Seattle WA USA
http://www.compasscycle.com

Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/

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[Bill Romano]

Thanks Jan. Were you able to view the photos of the fork that I posted with all of the paint removed? I don't have the fork back yet. But Groody sent me those photos. They said that they closely inspected the bare fork and looked at it through a magnifier. They see no evidence of cracking at all. I am feeling really good about it. Should I still be worried?

[Matt Coe]

With the Soma fork as an example how does one go about performing a dye penetration test?  Does anyone have a link to a page that describes how one would do this at home (relatively easily)?

Maybe this would be a good "tech" piece to include in BQ?

matt

roxbury, ma

[Nick Payne]

Here's a description of the materials and process for dye penetration testing: http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/wiki/Dye_Penetrant

And here's some examples of the test performed on bicycle components: http://materials.open.ac.uk/mem/mem_dye.htm

And if you want to see a fairly comprehensive collection of photos of broken bikes and components: http://pardo.net/bike/pic/

[Eric Keller]

On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 12:11 PM, Bill Romano <wrom...@optonline.net> wrote:

Hi all. I feel it's my duty to give you this update on my Grand Randonneur fork. Many of you were interested and concerned with my "cracked" fork.

Whoever it was that said these were not brazed by hand wins the prize.  Ugly but not cracked.

[Philip Kim]

http://rideyourjourney.com/

Dunno if you saw the update for V2 for Velo Routier. I was gonna wait to see the changes they made before I decided on building up a VO Pass Hunter.

The rear spacing increased to 132.5, awesome since MTB 650b wheels are more available than 130mm, and make for stronger dish

Rear chainstay will be able to fit bigger tires, I'm assuming so hetres and fenders can fit, nice

Fork crown will have underside threaded 5mm to attach fenders, also really nice. Earlier VR owners said they had some trouble fitting fenders

Drop out will be semi horizontal. Pretty disappointed in this though I know they were trying to appeal to a wide audience. Currently have semi horizontal dropouts with fenders and it is a PITA to set up, and remove the wheels. I have a spring nut to move the fender line, but it's still is awful.

Also they didn't mention anything about tubing, I would like a 25.4 TT and 28.6 DT for the smaller sizes. Also the color is in french blue it seems.

At this point, seems like a VO Polyvalent, although given the geo is the same the TT will be shorter.

[Evan Baird]

Will that fit the compass rack?

[aztris]

Asked about the V2 a while back and they said there would be an update around now. Right on time.

Interested to see how they new rack will fit. The rack/fork crown setup on the V1 killed it for me. Would have also liked to see the frame retain vertical dropouts.

[Philip Kim]

I'm not sure about the V2, but when I asked about the compass rack fitting for V1, they said it would not fit. They might change the braze one for V2.