A replacement for Aquanet Hair Spray?? Wolfbite by Airwolf

[Steve Johnstone]

I was just wondering if anyone has had a chance to use this.

I would love to know what's in it, but even discounted from $30 to $20, won't tempt me.

LINK - WolfBite

[Jetguy]

Given Aquanet is under $3 a can and even find deals like 2 for $5 http://www.walgreens.com/store/c/aqua-net-professional-hair-spray,-extra-super-hold-3-unscented/ID=prod5458027-product  I should start a repackaging operation in my garage.

 

Let's see, I buy it at $2.50 for 11 ounces and repackage and sell in 2 ounce jars for $15 each to compete with Airwolf. Say you lose that extra ounce in the process, no big deal, it's still 5:1 ratio. $2.50 resold at $75

 

Imagine the fun of making a machine in a big sealed plexiglass box that removes the can's spray cap and dispenses 2 ounces into each jar. Then a gripper screws on the lid and it goes past a labeler.

 

Not unlike this project https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tO5sxLapAts

 

[Artem]

Haha I can make a machine like that :)

[Steve Johnstone]

LOL... I have to import mine from the States and its a right PITA, but think I could live with a 400% profit margin :-)

While we are at it, has anyone found a UK supplier for Aquanet... even Europe will do as I'm running low.

[Enginwiz]

Amazon UK sells Aquanet for 10 Pounds including shipping. The ASIN is B002K33AFM.

The bottle used to be purple. Did they change the color to blue?

[Jetguy]

#2 VS #3

Super Hold VS Super Extra Hold

[Jetguy]

Oops it's Extra Super Hold #3

[Jetguy]

FWIW, I think I have seen where they show a blue can but the description and numbers match up to the Extra Super Hold #3. And, I've also seen totally different can markings in the stores.Never really checked into old VS new stock but they have changed the label design a few times.

[MacGyver2004]

I gave up on hair spray in favor of Elmer's Xtreme Glue stick over kapton tape.  It sticks better and is way less messy.  When it stops sticking I wipe the bed down with denatured alcohol and it revives it.  If I get a tear in my kapton tape the glue stick fills it in and I keep printing.  The nice thing is the glue stick residue washes off with plain water leaving your part nice and clean.

[Jetguy]

Hairspray is meant to be washed out of your hair by warm water as well- go figure.

 

That's how I wash down a hairpsray covered glass bed under warm water in the sink- no effort required at all.

 

In the end it's all the same closely related set of chemicals we are using. You apply as glue, I spray on as a thin light coat. In the end, it's not that different even though some folks try to make it out to be.

[Steve Johnstone]

Cheers, just ordered 3 cans.

I think its coming from Europe. Still very expensive compared to our good folks over the pond... £29.67 including shipping.

The way I look at it, all it needs to do is save 1 print and paid for itself :-)

[Ryan Carlyle]

Hell, one can of Aquanet lasts for ages. The price per print is negligible.

[Ryan Carlyle]

Most of the popular build surfaces have very similar underlying chemistry. That's because they all rely on diffusion welding for adhesion. The molecular chains at the interface slightly dissolve into each other.

Gluestick active ingredient - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyvinylpyrrolidone

Aquanet and liquid PVA glue active ingredient - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyvinyl_acetate

If you're familiar with organic chemistry, what you see here is an identical polyvinyl backbone chain, and functional groups that both have a ketone/ester double-bonded oxygen adjacent to a space-filling component. (The space-filling component probably decreases adhesion so the print can be released.) And guess what? Permanent build plate surfaces rely on the same underlying chemistry:

Lexan also has exposed double-bonded oxygen on a polymer backbone: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polycarbonate

Kapton also has exposed double-bonded oxygen on a polymer backbone: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapton

Acrylic also has exposed double-bonded oxygen on a polymer backbone: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poly(methyl_methacrylate)

PET also has exposed double-bonded oxygen on a polymer backbone: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyethylene_terephthalate

Now, if you look at some common solvents for filaments, what do you often see? Double-bonded oxygen on small molecules. Here's ethyl acetate (dissolves PLA) and acetone (dissolves ABS):

These molecules are still diffusing into the filament polymer, but they're so small and mobile that they are able to completely liquefy and dissolve the plastic.

Isn't chemistry great?

[owen]

Wait, I can rub a glue stick on my head to keep my hair in place instead? Alright!

On Oct 23, 2014, at 12:05 PM, Jetguy <vernon...@gmail.com> wrote:

In the end it's all the same closely related set of checmicals we are using. You apply as glue, I spray on as a thin light coat. In the end, it's not that different even though some folks try to make it out to be.

[Dan Newman]

On 23/10/2014, 6:02 PM, owen wrote:
> Wait, I can rub a glue stick on my head to keep my hair in place instead? Alright!

Calvo turpius est nihil comato.

Dan

[TheMakerGuy]

Wow

Great info

On Oct 23, 2014, at 1:45 PM, Ryan Carlyle <temp...@gmail.com> wrote:

Most of the popular build surfaces have very similar underlying chemistry. That's because they all rely on diffusion welding for adhesion. The molecular chains at the interface slightly dissolve into each other.

Gluestick active ingredient - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyvinylpyrrolidone

Aquanet and liquid PVA glue active ingredient - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyvinyl_acetate

If you're familiar with organic chemistry, what you see here is an identical polyvinyl backbone chain, and functional groups that both have a ketone/ester double-bonded oxygen adjacent to a space-filling component. (The space-filling component probably decreases adhesion so the print can be released.) And guess what? Permanent build plate surfaces rely on the same underlying chemistry:

Lexan also has exposed double-bonded oxygen on a polymer backbone: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polycarbonate

Kapton also has exposed double-bonded oxygen on a polymer backbone: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapton

Acrylic also has exposed double-bonded oxygen on a polymer backbone: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poly(methyl_methacrylate)

Now, if you look at some common solvents for filaments, what do you often see? Double-bonded oxygen on small molecules. Here's ethyl acetate (dissolves PLA) and acetone (dissolves ABS):

These molecules are still diffusing into the filament polymer, but they're so small and mobile that they are able to completely liquefy and dissolve the plastic.

Isn't chemistry great?

On Thursday, October 23, 2014 11:05:08 AM UTC-5, Jetguy wrote:

Hairspray is meant to be washed out of your hair by warm water as well- go figure.

 

That's how I wash down a hairpsray covered glass bed under warm water in the sink- no effort required at all.

 

In the end it's all the same closely related set of chemicals we are using. You apply as glue, I spray on as a thin light coat. In the end, it's not that different even though some folks try to make it out to be.

 

On Thursday, October 23, 2014 11:49:16 AM UTC-4, MacGyver2004 wrote:

I gave up on hair spray in favor of Elmer's Xtreme Glue stick over kapton tape.  It sticks better and is way less messy.  When it stops sticking I wipe the bed down with denatured alcohol and it revives it.  If I get a tear in my kapton tape the glue stick fills it in and I keep printing.  The nice thing is the glue stick residue washes off with plain water leaving your part nice and clean.

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[TobyCWood]

@ Ryan... wish you posted more info like that... Good stuff!

We talked with the Airwolf people at the Inside 3DP thing in Santa Clara. They remembered me from my visit to their factory last year. They gave us a good interview and promised an eval machine (we'll see...). I talked with them about their new stuff... They said that it does not use alcohol like AQ so it is not flammable and it is wipe on so there's no overspray. meh.

I agree with Jetguy. IMO AQ unscented super extra hold is the optimal solution right now. IMO glue stick is WAY MORE messy... and I am talking about how glue stick releases. AQ stays down. GS stretches like gooey cheese.. If over spray is an issue (and it certainly is not for me with almost 2000 hours on each machine) then spray the BP outside the machine! or make a funnel and use it to stop overspray.

[Jetguy]

I don't know if I totally buy their statement. It must have some violatile liquid in thier "magic" elephant snot, how else would it dry on the bed. Something evaporates?

If it's really not flamable as they claim, maybe it's imported zebra cum and don't ask where they get it from or who collects it?

It's funny that if someone did claim that zebra cum was the ideal build surface, I garantee some of you would use it and and there would be posts of praise how well it works.

It's just funny how insane folks get over their prefered method.

[Scott Booker]

Do you consider water to be "volatile"?

[Jetguy]

I don't know, if it had an MSDS, we'd have an answer.

 

So until then I say it's elephant snot or zebra cum until you can prove it's something else.

[Scott Booker]

Oh, I will absolutely say that I have no idea at all what they are using as their evaporative carrier.  Zebra cum is as good a guess as any.

I was just pointing out that there are certainly liquids that evaporate that usually aren't considered to be "volatile".

[Ryan Carlyle]

Toby, consider this sort of thing a sneak peek at the book I'm writing :-) 

[Jetguy]

I'll even play Devils advocate here.

 

Let's say yes, it's water based. Let's say that given the information Ryan gave earlier, it's an obvious formulation based on one those groupings.

That means they are selling you watered down white glue in a 2oz jar for $20 marked down from $30 making you think you got a bargain.

 

Or let's say it's closer to a water based hairspray, still sold at $10 per oz.

 

There are no warnings, no material safety data sheet (MSDS), aren't they in California who goes crazy and requires labels on everything?

 

What I'm getting at here is we DO have MSDS for many of the known methods including Aquanet. http://www.southlandmed.com/pdf/aquan_msds.pdf

 

So for a company to come onto the market with a proprietary substance, brag about selling to schools and industry "Currently, Airwolf 3D printers can be found in engineering firms, government agencies and schools worldwide." but not have an MSDS seems to be a bit of a liability???

 

I'm saying this as cautionary tale and why I'm not starting a rebottling operation in my garage for some magic bed surface treatment. I want nothing to do with the regulations and safety requirements that come with selling anything in a bottle. Doing so a business could put the entire business at risk.

 

On Friday, October 24, 2014 12:04:59 PM UTC-4, Scott Booker wrote:

[Ryan Carlyle]

Oh yeah, they HAVE TO have an MSDS to sell commercially, or they're violating all sorts of laws if they don't. Mind you, it could be practically blank and say "not toxic" but there has to be some sort of documentation on it. 

[DonaldJ]

And now, especially for PLA, we have Wolfbite Nano!  Same low price!

http://www.3ders.org/articles/20150311-airwolf-3d-unveils-wolfbite-nano-adhesive-solution-for-optimal-pla-3d-printing.html

[Kurt @ VR-FX]

Steve - its seems that Donald is CRAZY about the Shit - so its GOTTA Be Good!

:-)
-K-

[DonaldJ]

I particularly like the feature of soaking the glass build plate in warm water.  How convenient!

[JolietDelta]

Ok. I'm getting a little bit confused. On almost every forum one can find long threads about some magic sprays or mixtures. I know that engineers sometimes tend to make things more complicated as they really are (at least my wife keeps telling me this). I'm wondering: did no one ever think about simply dissolving an UHU Stick (40 g) in 250 ml purified water in order to spray it on the build plate? I'm doing this since my first printer and I didn't have one failed print (at leas not one I can remeber right now) due to parts getting loose. It's inexpensive, reliable and leaves a nice shiny surface. You can even give it some cool name: UHUbite, or Soylent white. :-)

~
Jens

[Scott Booker]

Personally, for PLA, I have some Elmers wood/carpenters glue heavily diluted in water (very, very thin milk).... Wipe some of that on my glass with a paper towel and it will leave a haze. Run the HBP at 60C and I get great adhesion and auto release at room temperature.

Not my invention.... picked it up somewhere on one of these forums and it has served me well.

[Chris P]

Purple Elmer's gluestick on bare glass works perfectly for us for PLA, ABS, Nylon, PET, and HIPS.  Not sure what problem they are solving here...

[John Gelnaw]

On Sunday, March 15, 2015 at 10:27:23 PM UTC-4, Chris P wrote:

Purple Elmer's gluestick on bare glass works perfectly for us for PLA, ABS, Nylon, PET, and HIPS.  Not sure what problem they are solving here...

What he said.  Also easy to wash off when needed.

 

[adam paul]

I think the problem is " how to generate more streams of income"

[Steve Johnstone]

Yip, I think you're right.

I'm currently using hairspray or glue stick on cheap as chips, 2mm picture glass. I've just finished two weeks of PET printing and only had to treat the build plate once with glue stick :-).

[Ryan Carlyle]

Whenever something in 3D printing doesn't make sense, it's pretty safe to blame patents. Specifically 3D Systems this time: http://www.google.com/patents/US20130310507

If you produce an adhesive for 3d printing that contains "a poly(vinyl alcohol) and another polymer" then it infringes the patent. That class of compounds includes the polyvinyl acetate (PVAc) in wood glue, and the polyvinylpyrrolidone (PVP) in gluestick. So you're free to use pure PVAc or pure PVP in a carrier solvent like water, but the instant you add a second ingredient that is a polymer (such as a viscosifier or second adhesive or whatever) it infringes. 

The insane thing about this patent is claim 20, which claims the METHOD of using such an adhesive for 3d printing. That's right, when you put Elmer's gluestick on your build plate, you're infringing on 3D System's ludicrous patent. In fact, if 3DS doesn't grant you a license to use this method patent, you can't even use their own CubeStick product on your build plate. Both the adhesive and using the adhesive for 3d printing are patented.

This one really screams for a lawsuit so prior art can be used to throw out the broader parts of the patent. It's a very winnable case if 3DS sues. All you have to do is prove people were using such adhesives for 3d printing prior to 2012. But anyone too small to survive a fight with Evil Lawyer Incorporates needs to be very careful to avoid selling infringing products in the meantime.

[JolietDelta]

They filed it over here as well. As it is free of charge, I opened a "request for examination of 3rd party claims and prior art". I attached a PDF of a thread of a local user group dating from 2010, where that exact technique has been discussed and also applied. For this you don't need to charge a $/€600 / h patent lawfirm.

[offtopic]
This dual-extrusion printhead is a similiar case. All claims made there can be found as prior art somewhere on the internet as well.
[/offtopic]

[Ryan Carlyle]

We need to get some 3d printing experts working as patent examiners...

[Kurt @ VR-FX]

Exactly. But, of course, none will do it for free...

:-(

[TobyCWood]

I think there is only a "case" if you sell it. If you use it they can't touch you. Patents cannot stop you from using a patented thing or process... only if you try to sell the thing or process as your own.

[David (SD3D)]

This is actually a common misconception...

That very question came up during a meeting we had with our patent lawyers last week. Patents cover sales, use and manufacturing of a technology regardless of whether it will be used for personal or commercial means. Whether you actually get sued for the use or manufacturing is a different question as obviously sales are a much more public affair. But if all of a sudden a giant starts to lose market share to an unknown competitor without explanation, they will likely sue them just to see how they are gobbling up the market. 

You would really have to be rattling the hive for that to happen though.

[Ryan Carlyle]

Right, merely building the patented device or executing the patented method is infringing under US law. Doesn't matter why you do it. There's no "fair use" for patents. 

It ends up coming down to a question of whether they care enough to sue you. Answer is usually no at the hobbyist level.  

[66tbird]

Wolfbite? Hmmm?  Well, it went on sale at two for one so a buddy and I split the deal. I've been printing valve bodies on a Rep2 in ABS on a HBP of 60C with a hairspray glue-stick combo trammed to 7 micron using a 20 micron layer height with about 70% reliability. These parts are big and have to be flat. Now my glass plate has seen thousands of hours and projects with most just popping off after the cool down (freezer for 2min).

I apply Wolfbite, it goes on like oil on glass, I read the instructions again and notice ''shake very well'' in big red bold highlighted letters. To big to be obvious for me I guess. I re-apply after shaking the life out of it and it goes on smooth. I run the print, it's a big one, no attached brim do to radius'd edges, lots of upper volume to contract, just a beach of a print. But it does the job. Held that puppy down tight. I let it cold on it's own and check it a few hours later.

It had popped loose on it's own BUT TOOK THE TOP LAYER OF GLASS WITH IT in places. I'm still at a loss on that one. To tight on the tram maybe, to thick of Wolfbite application, stressed out Boro glass, any combo of the above?  I'll try a few things on the good parts of the glass and see if things go better.

Time to order more glass.

[adam paul]

Most of us just use plain float glass from Lowes, 12" squares for my bot cost 4$

[Kurt @ VR-FX]

Hey there TBird - welcome back 2 the fold! 

I haven't seen U post in some time.

Glad 2 C Ur still Alive!

-K-

Sent from my iPhone

[JasonB]

I got a few pieces of 1/4" float glass cut from regular window pane stock at a glass shop down the street from me.  He had a smoked pane so we went fancy with it.  It cost me $20 and I haven't broken one yet.  I paint on some water diluted uhu gluestick every dozen prints or so and let it dry and abs pops off when it cools down after the print.  I can get some slight curling on a corner or two if I get impatient and start a print before the bed hits 110C but overall it's very reliable and easy.  I had two thinner glass panes before but my bed would bend them slightly at temperature so I beefed up for flatness.