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Questions about Bluetooth scanning for a prediction run Turkey Trot

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Adam Engst

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Nov 27, 2024, 1:33:11 PM11/27/24
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This is mostly for Vesa, but I figure others might benefit from his answers. Questions after the race description...

I'm timing the Finger Lakes Runners Club's Turkey Trot tomorrow morning. It's a prediction run, so we care about how far off people are from the prediction instead of overall times. This is the first time the race will be timed this way, and the first time it has ever required online registration, so I'm worried about inadvertent bandits. And it will be snowing, and the high school can't let us into the building for the first time ever, so all we have are tents for pre- and post-race activities. Of course.

At registration, I plan to have QR codes posted pointing to the Webscorer registration so people can register on their phones. We'll also have a couple of laptops for those who don't bring their phones.

At the start, I plan to give pre-race instructions that people need to have their bib numbers visible at the finish line and to stay in the chute—in order—once they finish. Some won't, regardless, and I plan to tell anyone who doesn't have a bib to peel off before the finish line. Some still won't.

The Webscorer setup I'm planning is two devices (maybe a third for results), with one in Master mode for recording times. It will auto-start the Helper device using Webscorer.com (Bluetooth has been problematic for that for us). When runners finish, the Master timer will record times but not bibs for runners. When they're in the chute, the Helper device will use a Bluetooth scanner to read QR codes on each bib to record places. When there are breaks in the action, the Helper will send bibs and the Master will receive bibs.

(For backup, we'll have a Seiko printing stopwatch for times and a tick sheet for recording bibs; I plan to have the bib recorder write down occasional times as well for syncing. We'll also have a time-stamped video of all finishers from an iPhone.)

With all that description, here are my questions:

* When the inevitable runner with no bib crosses the finish line, I assume we should record them (since it's too hard to evaluate who might just have not opened their jacket), which would entail everyone recording a time, the tick sheet recording No Bib, and the Bluetooth scanner person tapping No Bib. Is this correct?

* If we end up in a situation where the Master device misses a finisher such that we have one more bib than times, how can we add a tap in the middle of the times? Just record a new tap and then change the time to what we determined from the backups? 

* If we end up with a situation where the Helper device has one fewer bibs than the Master has times, that would seem just a matter of deleting a tap on the Master, right?

* Is there any problem with the Master device also posting Live Results so people can see who's the closest to their prediction whenever we sync bibs? 

* We'll also have QR codes pointing at the results; is there a way to know the URL to the Webscorer results page in advance, or do I have to update a redirect that will be encapsulated in the QR code?

* Any issues with a third Webscorer device as a Helper in Announcer mode that picks up the results via Webscorer.com?

Thanks!

Vesa Suomalainen

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Nov 27, 2024, 2:31:57 PM11/27/24
to Adam Engst, Webscorer Users Group
You will be using “Timing mode = Bib sync” which is limited to 2 devices only.

Whenever someone crosses the finish line, the time stamp device should always record a time stamp.  The bib recording device should enter “No bib” for any racer who does not have a bib.

It is important that the sequence numbers between the two devices stay in sync. Before sending the bibs over, check that both devices are on the same sequence number. If there is one time stamp missing, add it before the sync. If there is one bib missing, add a No Bib before syncing.

Create a QR code out of your organizer page:

Navigate to Organizers / My organizer page
Click on the Results tab
Scroll down to the bottom to find the QR code

The live results will appear at the top of this page when the race is started on the app.

The live results should be turned on only on the time stamp device.

There is no option to also use Master / Helper timing mode when already set up for bib sync.  So no announcer view.



On Nov 27, 2024, at 8:33 AM, Adam Engst <ace...@gmail.com> wrote:

This is mostly for Vesa, but I figure others might benefit from his answers. Questions after the race description...
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Adam Engst

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Nov 27, 2024, 2:41:19 PM11/27/24
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Thanks, Vesa!

To make sure I understand, if I have to add an extra time stamp to get the numbers to sync, can I edit its time so it falls at the right point in the sequence, so the times and bibs all match up?

I didn’t know about the QR code to the organizer page showing live results—that will be a help.

And good to know about not having Announcer view. Live Results will be fine.

cheers… -Adam

Vesa Suomalainen

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Nov 27, 2024, 2:56:16 PM11/27/24
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The sync would still work, but you’d end with an extra time or bib that would carry over to the next sync.  If there is a discrepancy, you’re best off to deal with it before this off-by-one issue carries over to the rest of the results.

You can then investigate what happened at that spot in the race, and not have to adjust everyone’s results (which can practically be done only in Excel).

The alternative is to wait to sync until all racers are in, compare the two lists and make the adjustments before the sync.


On Nov 27, 2024, at 9:41 AM, Adam Engst <a...@tidbits.com> wrote:


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Adam Engst

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Nov 27, 2024, 6:55:16 PM11/27/24
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Just for others who might be curious—what I hadn’t realized is that if the time stamp device misses a time such that it’s one behind the bib recording device, you can add a tap on the time stamp device and then tap the sequence number and, instead of canceling the tap, change the sequence number. Between that and being able the change the time, it’s easy to change the time stamp device so it matches the bib recording device before syncing. 

But you can only change the sequence number back to the last empty bib slot, which means that if you have to go back further, you can change a recorded bib to No Bib to empty it, move your extra tap into the right sequence, and then reorder the rest of the bib numbers into the right sequence. That wouldn’t be pretty, but it would work.


Vesa Suomalainen

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Nov 27, 2024, 9:53:54 PM11/27/24
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I once timed a race with 870 finishers over 3 hours using bib sync.  I was the bib recording operator, and hired a fresh teenager to be the time stamp operator.  

Most misses / extras end up happening with the time stamp device as it’s not easy to keep up tapping the correct number of time stamps with bunch finishes.  We had an extra volunteer record number of finishers with a mechanical tally counter which was helpful to catch the errors on the spot.

Before each sync, I would walk up the finishing chute to check with the time stamp operator that we were on the same sequence number before syncing.

Only issue we had was when I typed in bib 842 vs. the actual bib 824. When 842 actually finished, the app shows a popup if you want to reassign the earlier 842 entry to No Bib to be dealt with later.

image0.png

On Nov 27, 2024, at 1:55 PM, Adam Engst <a...@tidbits.com> wrote:

Just for others who might be curious—what I hadn’t realized is that if the time stamp device misses a time such that it’s one behind the bib recording device, you can add a tap on the time stamp device and then tap the sequence number and, instead of canceling the tap, change the sequence number. Between that and being able the change the time, it’s easy to change the time stamp device so it matches the bib recording device before syncing. 

But you can only change the sequence number back to the last empty bib slot, which means that if you have to go back further, you can change a recorded bib to No Bib to empty it, move your extra tap into the right sequence, and then reorder the rest of the bib numbers into the right sequence. That wouldn’t be pretty, but it would work.


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Tony Martin

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Nov 28, 2024, 6:00:35 AM11/28/24
to Webscorer Users Group, Vesa Suomalainen, Webscorer Users Group, Adam Engst
Over time what we've developed to stop missing times & bibs is to make the finish line as narrow as possible,
if you can get it down to 2 runners, it forces the bunched runners naturally into one line, we then have the funnel
narrow down to one runner walking so the person taking bib numbers can stand at the end of the funnel & record 
without any stress. You just have to make sure that somebody is making sure the runners walk down the funnel
in the order they came over the line. We can also use another person standing with the time stamper watching the runners
coming in & telling them "two coming in"  "3 coming in" this gives the time stamper time to get ready to hit the record button
the correct number of times.
Cheers Tony

Adam Engst

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Nov 28, 2024, 2:22:25 PM11/28/24
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Thanks to all! Despite running in 38-degree rain, our race went well. My time stamp guy ended up with one more number than I had for bibs, so we identified a spot where I’d seen three No Bib bandits in a row, and he deleted one of their times. 

It’s a prediction run where the goal is to come as close to the prediction as possible, and most people don’t care at all. So I’m not really sure what our action might have done, but I hope no one notices. 🙂 We didn’t end up having to go to our backup Seiko or backup tick sheet, which was good because the tick sheet was soaked and probably unusable. I also have timestamped video if I really have to check something.

It was tough keeping up at times, partly because of the weather. My iPhone would periodically show the on-screen keyboard when I was using the ScanAvenger Bluetooth scanner, which confused me at first because there was no way to dismiss the keyboard other than force-quitting the app. (Kudos to Webscorer for maintaining state during that.) What I later realized was that I could still use the ScanAvenger when the keyboard was showing, and that would cause the keyboard to disappear again. And, of course, my trigger finger got really cold, but I couldn’t keep a glove on for when I needed to interact with the iPhone. I worried about the ScanAvenger in the rain, but it performed admirably, only struggling a bit on some crumpled bib QR codes.

The only real problem I had was that raindrops on my iPhone screen periodically triggered some movement in the Webscorer interface, so the ScanAvenger’s scanning wasn’t registered. I had to tap back out of wherever I had ended up (usually editing a runner’s info) to return to scanning bibs. After we realized what was happening, we put a plastic bag over my hand and phone to ensure it didn’t flake out like that anymore.

It was also helpful to have volunteers acting as traffic cops in the chute and another volunteer who told me to back up in the chute when we encountered the bulk of the runners, and I stumbled due to the screen issue. Without that (i.e., good weather), I would have been able to keep up easily. We ended up timing 379 runners this way in about an hour and a half. We had 548 registrants, but the attrition wasn’t at all surprising given the weather; further outside of town, the rain was falling as thick snow.

The results were a little tricky, and I’m still not entirely sure what runners saw. We were publishing Live Results, but I think that screen didn’t have the option to show Adjusted Time, which is Webscorer’s name for the difference between the actual and prediction. That was on the normal results screen on Webscorer.com. But because we got out of sync during a busy time, we had no time to sync up until things calmed down, meaning that there were only 57 runners in the results for longer than would have been ideal. But whatever.



Vesa Suomalainen

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Nov 28, 2024, 4:01:17 PM11/28/24
to Adam Engst, Webscorer Users Group
Bluetooth scanners are designed to dismiss the scanning view and bring up the device keyboard if you pull the scanner trigger twice in quick succession. To get back to the scanning mode, pull the trigger twice in quick succession again to dismiss the on-screen keyboard.

And yes, touch screens don’t like water droplets - unpredictable things will happen.  Recommended approach on a rainy day is to use a canopy for cover, or use a big golf-umbrella with the end handle tucked into jacket pocket to free up your hands for operation.  Scanning bibs on a chute may not allow either of these methods, so your trick may have been the best one.

Adam Engst

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Nov 28, 2024, 4:34:10 PM11/28/24
to Vesa Suomalainen, Webscorer Users Group
Oh! Good to know about the Bluetooth scanner! My hands were seriously cold, so my ability to pull the trigger accurately was low. I was definitely double-pulling a lot, especially if a bib wasn’t reading instantly.

What we decided for next year was to have two tents for timing, one for the time-stamp device and backup timer at the finish line and a second one at the end of the chute for the bib scanning device. That way, the chute would connect the two and people would have a clear path to follow.

This year, I’d brought only one tent for the main timers, figuring I’d be moving around a lot while scanning bibs. That was true, but people could have come to me.

cheers… -Adam
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