Re: [magenta-discuss] Re: Problems with plugin in Ableton Live 10 Suite

[Jesse Engel]

Hi Carl,

The first part is expected behavior for now and matches what you see in the installation instructions (https://magenta.tensorflow.org/studio/ableton-live#installation). Newer versions of Ableton will be updated to include node.script, so that will resolve that issue. 

We haven't encountered the other error before, and we'll get back to you soon about how we can best help troubleshoot the issue. 

All the best,
Jesse

On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 5:14 AM Carl Caulkett <carl.c...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm using macOS 10.14.1, by the way, and despite warnings to the contrary, Ableton Live appears to be behaving itself, in all other respects.

On Monday, November 26, 2018 at 1:02:31 PM UTC, Carl Caulkett wrote:

Hello, I am trying to use the magenta.amxd device in Ableton Live 10 Suite. 

One problem I have is that if I have the Live preferences set to use the built in v8.0.0 Max for Live app, the four buttons refuse to show as enabled. However, if I set Live to use the external v8.0.1 app in my Applications folder, the buttons *do* light up, enabling me to run the Magenta apps. 

The other problem is that even if I do that, I'm then finding that the MIDI clips generated by Interpolate, Generate and Groovae do not contain any MIDI notes whatsoever, while the clips generated by Continue are identical to the input clip. 

Any ideas, anyone?

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[Carl Caulkett]

Sorry I deleted the original post because I was trying to follow the mailing list guidelines about not using it as a help desk!

I’m still getting the same problem. I followed the steps in the video for Continue exactly as shown. This is what gets generated… 

[Carl Caulkett]

I'm wondering if it's a path/location issue. Although the relative path locations are correct (as far as I can tell), the files are buried deep in a couple of sub-folders...

Or maybe it's a node.js issue, in which case I'm totally clueless!

On Monday, November 26, 2018 at 6:43:24 PM UTC, Jesse Engel wrote:

[Jesse Engel]

You shouldn't need to move anything, and in fact should keep the folder unchanged, for the .amxd to pick up all the locations properly. If you're able to load the pop-up windows then that's a sign that things are actually being found. You might want to try the standalone applications (that don't require max or live) as a sanity check.

[Carl Caulkett]

I've just tried the stand-alone applciation of Continue and loaded in the exported MIDI of the same notes as shown in the video. The result was exactly the same. I got four identical copies of the original MIDI.

 

On Monday, November 26, 2018 at 6:43:24 PM UTC, Jesse Engel wrote:

[Adam Roberts]

Moving magenta-discuss to bcc.

How about if you turn the temperature up?

[Carl Caulkett]

Just in case there was a problem on the Node.js side of things, I uninstalled node.js/npm using `brew uninstall node` I the reinstalled using `brew install node` this left my version of node at v11.2.0 and my version of NPM at v6.4.1.

[Carl Caulkett]

I've just increased the temperature up to 2.0 and it didn't make any difference.

I notice that you moved magenta-discuss to bcc. What should I do, if anything, to carry with this discussion?

On Monday, November 26, 2018 at 6:43:24 PM UTC, Jesse Engel wrote:

[Carl Caulkett]

I've just downloaded the new v8.0.2 of Max from Cycling'74 but I'm getting the same results with Continue. The resultant clips are identical to the input clip.

I'm quite comfortable with the command line in macOS and I'm an experienced developer so I don't mind getting my hands dirty if you want me to gather any debugging logs or anything like that.

On Monday, November 26, 2018 at 6:43:24 PM UTC, Jesse Engel wrote:

[Ryan Noise]

I have encountered the same problem as @Carl Caulkett.

I have installed the "Magenta Max Plugins" on 2 different macs, both running Live 10.5 / Max 80.1 / macOS HighSierra.

I made sure that the files we placed in the same file folders and that all the live preferences we matched but.....

One of them is giving me the same thing that issue as Carl Caulkett

The second computer worked fine ???

Any advice on correcting this?

[Adam Roberts]

Please hit the Menu -> Debug (or Opt+Cmd+I), which will open the developer console, and then take a look for any errors. That'd be helpful in debugging. 

Thanks.

[Carl Caulkett]

This is all the onformation I can get by pressing Opt-Cmd-I...

[img]https://i.ibb.co/qFxpMtP/Screenshot-2018-11-29-at-17-19-30.png[/img]

I can't see any error messages.

On Monday, November 26, 2018 at 6:43:24 PM UTC, Jesse Engel wrote:

[Carey Radebaugh]

Thanks Carl and Ryan for the info. A few other questions and things to try.

- Does it change at all if you try using something like one of the 808 or 909 core drum kits (before you use Continue) that are included?

- What about if you change the length to continue to 4 bars or more? Does that change anything?

- Have you tried using the Generate plugin first to generate some sequences and then using Continue on one of them? Curious if that works or not.

[Carl Caulkett]

Hi Carey,

I've just this minute tried using Generate with the 808 Core Kit and it simply generates 10 empty bars as shown here...

On Monday, November 26, 2018 at 6:43:24 PM UTC, Jesse Engel wrote:

[Carey Radebaugh]

Hrm, okay, this is certainly odd. Have you tried uninstalling and reinstalling? Or trying it on a different machine? We've still not able to reproduce it on our side, so harder to debug from afar. Sorry for the troubles, and hope we're able to get to the bottom of this soon.

[Carl Caulkett]

I have tried uninstalling and reinstalling, to no avail. Unfortunately I don't have access to another Mac at the moment. 

I'm not an expert in these particular technologies, but instinct is telling me that the Live/Max side of things are going through the motions correctly, but that the link to the node.js mechanisms is not working. Do you know of any documentation on how to set up that side of things? I'm sure I read something in the last few days, but I can't remember where! Is there some way of testing the node.js part of things independantly, or am I barking up the wrong tree?

On Monday, November 26, 2018 at 6:43:24 PM UTC, Jesse Engel wrote:

[Adam Roberts]

The fact that the standalone gives you the same behavior makes me think the issue is related to how TensorFlow.js is behaving on your computer. Does this app work correctly for you: https://goo.gl/magenta/neuraldrum?

[Carl Caulkett]

When I first fire up that app, I see this...

If I then press what I assume is the generate button, I get these new items generated...

Interestingly, if I run that web page in Chrome, I can hit the run button and get the drum machine to produce noise. If I try it in Safari, the new notes are generated but I don't hear any sound.

So the fact that notes are generated in either browser, I guess suggests that the TensorFlow.js is actually working. The fact that I can't hear anything when using Safari, I would think, is more likely to be a mechanical audio problem. Would you agree? 

On Monday, November 26, 2018 at 6:43:24 PM UTC, Jesse Engel wrote:

[Carl Caulkett]

Perhaps what running that app told me was that if an app suplies its own copy of tensorflow.js then it works as expected.

However, I just did a full file search as root, and I am pretty confident that I do not have a copy of TensorFlow.js anywhere on my computer.

Could this be the problem? Does it not get installed with the Magenta package?

On Monday, November 26, 2018 at 6:43:24 PM UTC, Jesse Engel wrote:

[Carl Caulkett]

Okay, I see now that TensorFlow.js is the complete package, not just some Javascript file as the name woulkd suggest.

On Monday, November 26, 2018 at 6:43:24 PM UTC, Jesse Engel wrote:

[Carl Caulkett]

I tried installing TensorFlow using `pip install tensorflow`. The plugins didn't work with that.

I the uninstalled using `pip uninstall tensorflow` and reinstalled using `brew install tensorflow'. The plugins didn't work after that.

I'm still not quite sure what was proved or otherwise ny running the web appp that Adam suggested, but then I'm so far out of my comfort zone with all of this Javascript malarkey!

On Monday, November 26, 2018 at 6:43:24 PM UTC, Jesse Engel wrote:

[Carl Caulkett]

Hello, chaps! Has anyone had any bright ideas about this? 

Or at least some suggestions about further measure I could carry out in order to try and debug this...

The last idea was Adam suggesting I tried out this page... https://goo.gl/magenta/neuraldrum? That page seemed to work okay as I indicated in my response, but I haven't heard anything else from anyone since then.

On Monday, November 26, 2018 at 6:43:24 PM UTC, Jesse Engel wrote:

[Jean-François Primeau]

Getting the exact same problem as described in this thread. Are there any specific hardware restrictions for this? Or maybe conflicts with installed libraries? My mac is on the older side of things, but running 10.13.6 and still doing great otherwise.

[Carl Caulkett]

Hi Jean-François, 

While I would not wish any harm to your machine, it's at least reassuring to know I'm not the only one with this problem! Maybe our collective cries of anguish will prompt the required response. If you find an answer through other means, please post back.

Cheers,

Carl 

On Monday, November 26, 2018 at 6:43:24 PM UTC, Jesse Engel wrote:

[Jean-François Primeau]

I've actually managed to get better results with a bit more trial and error.  The key is to feed it very short midi files, as it is mentioned in the instructions.  Looks like longer midi files are not handled nicely and confuse the software.  I think it is very nice to have access to a user-friendly interface for AI note generation, but from what I understand it will only go so far in its current version.

JFP

[Carl Caulkett]

Have you tried the Generate applet. That doesn't need any input clip at all. But on my system it just doesn't generate any output whatsoever. Well, if I specify that I want 10 variations, it correctly generates 10 clips. BUt they are entirely empty.

It's so frustrating! I would have thought it would be relatively straightforward to test the node.js side of things in isolation sinceit looks like the Ableton/Max side of things are doing what they should. They just do not seem to be getting any content back from the underlying TensorFlow.js stuff. Not being a Javascript expert, I'm a bit helpless here... 

On Monday, November 26, 2018 at 6:43:24 PM UTC, Jesse Engel wrote:

[Dana Lee]

Hi everyone,

I wasn't sure where to post this since I didn't see any guidelines about posting support issues on the community page. I'm happy to post this elsewhere if someone could redirect me.

I'm having the same issue Carl was having earlier where none of the buttons are lighting up. The Magenta package is in my Downloads directory and I have Max 8.0.2. Do I have to move the Magenta package elsewhere or is there anything else I can do to get this to work? I've never worked with a Max for Live device before so that might be part of the issue.

Thanks!

[Carl Caulkett]

On the advice of Lance Massey, I installed the latest 10.06 beta 4, which apparently comes with Max 8.02 built in. Despite that I stil had to switch to using the external Max in order to get the Magenta button to be enabled. After that, it's the same result as before - clips are generated but they are entirely empty.

[Adam Roberts]

Thanks for continuing to post on this and sorry that you're experiencing this issue! Unfortunately we have not been able to reproduce the problem on our end, but we will let you know when we're able to figure out what's happening.

[Yotam Mann]

I came across this github issue recently which says that WebGL (which tensorflow.js relies on), is not fully supported on a small set of Macs so Electron has disabled it for these machines. Are you using an Intel HD 3000 graphics card? 

[Carl Caulkett]

According to the "About This Mac" dialog, I'm using a NVIDIA GeForce GT 120 512 MB GPU. 

[Carl Caulkett]

While I wait for an answer to the non-functioning of my Magenta devices, I have a question about the requirement for the external Max application. If I have the external Max app selected in my Ableton preferences, does the Max app automatically work in Max for Live mode. The reason I asked is that I was exploring the 8.02 external Max app, and it indicated that it was in Demo mode and had only 30 days left to run.

I sincerely hope that Magenta's requirements for the external version of Max do not require me to puchase the cross-grade from Max for Live to the full Max application. I really don't have the spare 300/400 quid going spare at the moment!

[adam.r...@gmail.com]

Hi Carl, I can confirm that you don't need the full max license to run the M4L plugins within Ableton. You only need the full license to create and run native max patches.

[Carl Caulkett]

Thanks Adam,

I'm starting to look at learning how to build M4L devices, so I've just got to remember if I have Live set to use the internal or external one.

I did download the Live 10.06 beta 4, which apparently has the 8.02 Max embedded in it, but the Magenta device still doesn't run at all with that. 

Jesse did say that future releases of Live would include th enecessary node.script stuff, but I guess that day has not yet arrived!

On Monday, November 26, 2018 at 6:43:24 PM UTC, Jesse Engel wrote:

Hi Carl,

The first part is expected behavior for now and matches what you see in the installation instructions (https://magenta.tensorflow.org/studio/ableton-live#installation). Newer versions of Ableton will be updated to include node.script, so that will resolve that issue. 

We haven't encountered the other error before, and we'll get back to you soon about how we can best help troubleshoot the issue. 

All the best,
Jesse

On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 5:14 AM Carl Caulkett <carl.c...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm using macOS 10.14.1, by the way, and despite warnings to the contrary, Ableton Live appears to be behaving itself, in all other respects.

Jesse did say a few days ago that future version of Live will have the  

[Dana Lee]

Aha okay. I believe my macbook is using that so that makes sense. Unfortunately, I had to send it into the shop a few days ago so I can't be too certain. That's unfortunate then, but I believe it might be worth putting this information in the installation guide :)

[Carl Caulkett]

In an attemot t dig a bit deeper into this issue, I loaded up the `magenta.amxd` in Max for Live and switched to Patching Mode, hoping to spot a point where I could debug things. This is what shows up when I do this...

[Carl Caulkett]

Does this "No Process Info" message indicate an error condition or is this to be expected?

Is there some way that I can single step through the linked `.js` scripts and see if I can see where things are falling down?

I'm familiar with the ways of debugging, having 20+ years Delphi experience, 10+ years C#, and 18 months of Golang. I just need a head start to show me how to proceed here!

[Adam Roberts]

A point of clarification: while Max devices in general should work with the bundled version, some features are disabled including ones that we rely on. Therefore, for now the unbundled version is required to use these plugins. Hopefully this will eventually be "fixed" on Ableton's side.

Carl, thanks for your offer to help us debug this! We'll reach out to you shortly with a debug binary so you can help us figure out what's going wrong.

[Carl Caulkett]

Thanks Adam, a debug binary would be great. I appreciate that this is a bit of an edge case and may not be so common, so it's good of you to continue the interest in this matter. I'm looking forward to it, and the chance to expand my knowledge in the process!

[Lance Massey]

Hello all - Merry Christmas and stuff!

I just experienced this problem on my studio mac-mini running mojave using Ableton's latest beta. I did two things which seem to have fixed the issue. First: changed the name of the ".app" folder to just "app" without the dot. Second: upgraded node to the latest version( 11.5.0 at this writing). Oh - Second and a half I started node in a Terminal window.

HTH!!

L

Lance Massey

1(650)339-8297

[Carl Caulkett]

Hello Lance, 

was your problem the buttons not being enabled and the apps not being found, or was it the lack of MIDI output being generated?

[Lance Massey]

Buttons not enabled. FYI: I was able to change the app folder name back to having a dot in front though

[Yotam Mann]

Hi Carl. Thanks for your offer to help us debug. 

I've made a standalone build of Generate with a couple of small tweaks. First it uses a more recent version of Tensorflow.js and Magenta.js which hopefully has some support for different graphics card configurations (which is what i suspect might be the root of the problem), it also prints a bunch of debug info to the console about what notes were generated. in all likelihood it might still not work, but it'll at least give us a little more information to help debug the situation. 

Open the debug console (Menu -> Generate -> Debug), select an output folder and then hit generate. it will print all of the notes which were generated. mostly were looking to see if this array is greater than 0 in length and also that the output values don't include any NaNs. i print a little summary at the bottom also. if everything went ok it should look like this and also generate some valid MIDI files to the output directory. or if there are any other errors which are produced, that'd also be helpful.  

Thanks again! let us know how it goes whenever you've got a change. no rush. 

[Carl Caulkett]

Here’s the debug output. I don’t really know Javascript but I’m guessing that `notes[]` indicates an empty array. Not a good sign, I guess!

 

The generated MIDI files are all 14 bytes long with the following contents…

I think you may be correct in your suspicions about the Graphics config. As I think I mentioned, I’m running this on an old Mac Pro which has had unspeakable things done to it in order to get it to run macOS 10.14.2 Mojave via https://dosdude1.com/mojave. Since this patch involved the shortcomings of the non-Metal GPU in my machine, I wouldn’t be surprised if this was the problem.

Cheers,

Carl

[Carl Caulkett]

Let's try that again...

Here’s the debug output. I don’t really know Javascript but I’m guessing that `notes[]` indicates an empty array. Not a good sign, I guess!

 

The generated MIDI files are all 14 bytes long with the following contents…

[Carl Caulkett]

I've just been looking at `renderer.js`, all 62754 lines of it. Man alive! That's a lot of code!

[Yotam Mann]

alright i've got another one for you. this one is functionally exactly the same as the last one, but prints additional information to the console when it starts up, you'll see it puts some info about the tensorflow.js capabilities including which WebGL version you're running and some other WebGL features. Could you just copy/paste what it prints out for you so we can compare?

on my machine it looks something like this:

Here's the download link

[Carl Caulkett]

Hi Yotam,

here's what I got...

[Yotam Mann]

So i see you're running WebGL 1.0, so thinking this might be the problem. I've made a new build which uses CPU instead of WebGL when WebGL 1.0 is detected. It'll be a little slower than the WebGL version. 

If it successfully switched to CPU it'll log in the console "backend set to cpu". 

[Carl Caulkett]

Hi Yotam,

This is what I got in the console...

<quote>

components.js:40  * Tone.js r12 * 

components.js:18 webgl backend was already registered. Reusing existing backend

t.registerBackend @ components.js:18

components.js:18 cpu backend was already registered. Reusing existing backend

t.registerBackend @ components.js:18

Renderer.js:40  * Tone.js r12 * 

Renderer.js:188 backend set to cpu *** YAY!!

components.js:18 

============================

Hi there 👋. Looks like you are running TensorFlow.js in Node.js. To speed things up dramatically, install our node backend, which binds to TensorFlow C++, by running npm i @tensorflow/tfjs-node, or npm i @tensorflow/tfjs-node-gpu if you have CUDA. Then call require('@tensorflow/tfjs-node'); (-gpu suffix for CUDA) at the start of your program. Visit https://github.com/tensorflow/tfjs-node for more details.

============================

At @ components.js:18

Renderer.js:18  MusicVAE  Initialized model in 2.82s

Renderer.js:18  MusicVAE  Initialized model in 3.51s

</quote>

I haven't yet succeeded in getting it to generate any MIDI but I'll try again. Back in a moment!

Cheers,

Carl

[Carl Caulkett]

That seems to have sorted it! I got 8 MIDI clips of variable melodic content in a variety of octave ranges. I also tried the drums and got an equally varied assortment of beats, although 1 in particular was immediately usable. As you mention, it's a bit slow but that's not a problem. I was interested to see the message in the log about using C++. Here's the color view of the log...

[Carl Caulkett]

Hello again Yotam,

In fact one of the beats sounds really good especially when played with the "Funk Tekno Tribe" pack which includes the Probability Pack "Step Divider". A new glitchy masterpiece is born!! Listen to attached file...

How do you want to proceed with this? Obviously I would like to end up with a set of working apps, usable from within Live. Maybe the apps could switch between CPU and WebGL according to the WebGL version present. I realise I can’t expect special builds on a continual basis from you going forward.

Thanks to you and every one on the team for your efforts and patience so far!

Cheers,

Carl

[Yotam Mann]

yeah exactly. now that we've identified the problem, we can integrate the fix into the next release. 

thanks so much for your help! glad we were able to figure this out. 

[Carey Radebaugh]

Woohoo! 

Thanks Carl for sticking with us while we figured this out together. Look forward to hearing what you (and others) create using Magenta Studio.

[Carl Caulkett]

No problem, Carey,

Ignore what I said about the "Funk Tekno Tribe” pack though. It seems that that pack was producing beats by itself, without the need for external MIDI! And I thought I had stumbled upon a beautiful piece of artistic happenstance!

Cheers,

Carl

[Carl Caulkett]

Hey Guys! Any news on a new WebGL 1.0 compaible release?

On Monday, November 26, 2018 at 6:43:24 PM UTC, Jesse Engel wrote:

Hi Carl,

The first part is expected behavior for now and matches what you see in the installation instructions (https://magenta.tensorflow.org/studio/ableton-live#installation). Newer versions of Ableton will be updated to include node.script, so that will resolve that issue. 

We haven't encountered the other error before, and we'll get back to you soon about how we can best help troubleshoot the issue. 

All the best,
Jesse

On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 5:14 AM Carl Caulkett <carl.c...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm using macOS 10.14.1, by the way, and despite warnings to the contrary, Ableton Live appears to be behaving itself, in all other respects.

On Monday, November 26, 2018 at 1:02:31 PM UTC, Carl Caulkett wrote:

Hello, I am trying to use the magenta.amxd device in Ableton Live 10 Suite. 

One problem I have is that if I have the Live preferences set to use the built in v8.0.0 Max for Live app, the four buttons refuse to show as enabled. However, if I set Live to use the external v8.0.1 app in my Applications folder, the buttons *do* light up, enabling me to run the Magenta apps. 

The other problem is that even if I do that, I'm then finding that the MIDI clips generated by Interpolate, Generate and Groovae do not contain any MIDI notes whatsoever, while the clips generated by Continue are identical to the input clip. 

Any ideas, anyone?

--

[Carl Caulkett]

With regard to my ongoing WebGL deficiency, it's just occurred to me: if WegGL is a software platform, isn't it possible for me to upgrade my WebGL 1.0 to 2.0 and thereby be able to run Magenta? I guess the capabilities of my GPU may be critical in that case. How do I find out if my GPU/drivers are up to the job?

[Adam Roberts]

I believe the only way to upgrade in your case is to get a new computer with a newer GPU. Our next release (coming soon!) will include a workaround for people hitting this bug, although it will result in somewhat slower response time.

[Carl Caulkett]

Hey Jesse, Adam, Carey and Yotam!

Greetings, guys! Thanks so much for the 0.1 release. Okay, it's not the fastest thing on my machine, but this is more than outweighed by the fact that it works, even with my primitive, steam-powered WebGL 1.0! I've only tried the Generate app so far but that works as expected, so I imagine the other modules will work perfectly fine as well. Plus we have a new module. Happy days! I shall have fun exploring this.

Thanks again,

Cheers,

Carl

[Adam Roberts]

Thanks for helping us track down the bug! Sorry that the fix was to slow things down for you, but it's the best we can do for now!

[Matt Black]

hey crew!

I tried using Ableton studio but the functions are not lit up. But, I *think* im using the right version of Max (8.04) see below. any clues?

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[Mikhail Bychkov]

What about Node.JS, Have you installed it? Try to run standalone version first.

[Matt Black]

 I didnt see any ref to node.js in the instructions so i installed it. The standalone worked. The Ableton version still didnt work. I uninstalled Max 8.04 and put in 8.03. Now Ableton version works! 8.04 must have broken it.

8.03 is available here 

thanks for help Mikhail.

A quick play with generate, wow some crazy riddims. 

[Adam Roberts]

Thanks for reporting this! We just released v0.1.2 on the site, which is compatible with 8.0.4 and 8.0.3.