Duke Energy Net Metering Bill - What am I missing here?

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Gene DeFelice

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Jan 24, 2021, 12:45:04 PM1/24/21
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Hello all.

We've had our SolarEdge installation for a few months and are looking forward soon to the first month that we will actually produce enough excess energy to export. When that time comes, I would certainly like to know how much we are exporting. My understanding is that the net metering smart meter does not run backwards when you are exporting -- it just does not advance. And it won't advance again until the past earned credits are all used up.

What I can't seem to figure out is (since the meter does not run backwards) where to find an accounting of the monthly credits we have earned and used.

Does anyone know where to find that information?

Thanks.

-Gene


Michael A Mullett

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Jan 25, 2021, 7:59:26 AM1/25/21
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Gene, All -
 
    According to a telephone conversation which I had on Friday with Duke Renewables in North Carolina (to which I was referred by DEI Customer Service here in Indiana), this information should be available to you on your bill on a billing period basis assuming that you now have a digital "smart" meter rather than a conventional analog meter. 
 
    The digital meter meter has dual registers, one for Inflow and the other for Outflow.  Outflow measures the amount of energy your solar system exports to the grid, cumulatively.  Neither the Inflow nor the Outflow register on the digital meter "goes backwards" the way that the single register, bi-directional analog meters did (and mine still does).  So, both Inflow and Outflow data is definitely available to the Company.  However, I have yet to hear first-hand from a Net Metering customer with a digital meter who has received a "new" bill from Duke to confirm what I was told about the information available to Net Metering customers on such a bill.  (Personally, I am still waiting for my analog meter to be "changed out" for a digital meter (which I was advised will happen sometime in 2021 and for which I should receive approximately two weeks notice.  But, I was assured that I will receive a "new" bill for the same billing period during which my meter is "changed out.")
 
    Upon request, Duke will provide a print out of your accumulated credits at the end of a specified range of billing periods (which was e-mailed to me during my phone call on Friday).
 
    Duke is supposed to "reach out" to the solar advocates involved with the Indiana Sustainable Energy Forum (which includes several SIREN activists) prior to its March 1, 2020 Rate EDG Tariff filing to update us regarding its plans.  I expect this subject will come up again today during the virtual DEI IRP Statekholder Engagement Meeting No. 2, starting at 10:00 a.m., although it is not clear we will get today a set date for the update.
 
    To obtain your total solar output for your system during any billing period, you will need to rely on your own Solar Meter and Solar Monitoring System which you obtained through your solar installer.
 
    If you want to talk about your own account and obtain the print-out I referenced above, you may call Duke Renewables at 866-233-2290.
 
    Mike Mullett
 
Michael A. Mullett
Board Member & Advocacy Lead
Solarize Indiana, Inc.
723 Lafayette Avenue
Columbus, IN 47201
 
 
 

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Michael A Mullett

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Jan 25, 2021, 1:00:47 PM1/25/21
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For All Those Who Felt They Came Into the Middle of An Ongoing Discussion Thread re Duke Energy Net Metering Customer Metering and Billing --
 
    Please see thread below and attachments.  If you have follow up questions or comments, please do offer them.  
 
    Thanks!
 
    Mike
 
Michael A. Mullett
723 Lafayette Avenue
Columbus, IN 47201
 
 
In a message dated 1/25/2021 11:53:41 AM US Eastern Standard Time, hlwin...@gmail.com writes:
 
What am I missing here?
On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 7:59 AM 'Michael A Mullett' via SIREN Public Discussion Forum <fo...@sirensolar.org> wrote:
Gene, All -
 
    According to a telephone conversation which I had on Friday with Duke Renewables in North Carolina (to which I was referred by DEI Customer Service here in Indiana), this information should be available to you on your bill on a billing period basis -- assuming that you now have a digital "smart" meter rather than a conventional analog meter. 
 
    The digital meter meter has dual registers, one for Inflow and the other for Outflow.  Outflow measures the amount of energy your solar system exports to the grid, cumulatively.  Neither the Inflow nor the Outflow register on the digital meter "goes backwards" the way that the single register, bi-directional analog meters did (and mine still does).  So, both Inflow and Outflow data is definitely available to the Company for Net Metering customers who have digital "smart" meters.  However, I have yet to hear first-hand from a Net Metering customer with a digital meter who has received a "new" bill from Duke to confirm what I was told about the information available to Net Metering customers on such a bill.  (Personally, I am still waiting for my analog meter to be "changed out" for a digital meter -- which I was advised will happen sometime in 2021 and for which I should receive approximately two weeks notice.  But, I was assured that I will receive a "new" bill for the same billing period during which my meter is "changed out.")
 
    Upon request, Duke will provide a print out of your accumulated credits at the end of a specified range of billing periods (an example of which was e-mailed to me at my request during my phone call on Friday).
 
    Duke is supposed to "reach out" to the solar advocates involved with the Indiana Sustainable Energy Forum (which includes several SIREN activists) prior to its March 1, 2020 Rate EDG Tariff filing to update us regarding its plans (including those for "grandfathered" Net Metering customers).  I expect this subject will come up again today during the virtual DEI IRP Statekholder Engagement Meeting No. 2, starting at 10:00 a.m. and resuming at 1:00 p.m. -- although it is not clear whether we will learn today a set date for that promised update.
 
    To obtain your total solar output for your system during any billing period, you will need to rely on your own Solar Meter and Solar Monitoring System which you obtained through your solar installer.
 
    If you want to talk about your own account and obtain the print-out I referenced above, you may call Duke Renewables at 866-233-2290.
 
    Mike Mullett
 
Michael A. Mullett
Board Member & Advocacy Lead
Solarize Indiana, Inc.
723 Lafayette Avenue
Columbus, IN 47201
 
 
 
In a message dated 1/24/2021 12:45:06 PM US Eastern Standard Time, edef...@gmail.com writes:
 
Hello all.
 
We've had our SolarEdge installation for a few months and are looking forward soon to the first month that we will actually produce enough excess energy to export. When that time comes, I would certainly like to know how much we are exporting. My understanding is that the net metering smart meter does not run backwards when you are exporting -- it just does not advance. And it won't advance again until the past earned credits are all used up.
 
What I can't seem to figure out is (since the meter does not run backwards) where to find an accounting of the monthly credits we have earned and used.
 
Does anyone know where to find that information?
 
Thanks.
 
-Gene
 
 
In a message dated 12/12/2020 3:53:28 PM US Eastern Standard Time, through fo...@sirensolar.org Mike Mullett writes:
 
    I certainly do hope that everyone who received my initial e-mail from last week with its attachment also received my e-mail from yesterday with its attachment -- a letter from Duke's regulatory counsel here in Indiana, Kelley Karn, answering most of the questions which I posed in my initial e-mail based on our prior ISEF and SIREN list-serve communications and discussions.  But, if not, hopefully you will receive and read this e-mail and its attachment.
 
    As much of a critic and skeptic as I have been of Duke over the years, I do believe that we should and can have a dialogue with Duke before that utility makes its EDG filing on March 1.  Like Kerwin, I believe that Duke wants to adopt a different approach to EDG implementation than Vectren chose -- not the one that we would prefer if we had the choice, but one that would provide the opportunity for the Duke EDG and PURPA tariffs for small DG customers in 2021 to offer a "bridge" to the coming Distributed Energy Resources world of FERC Order 2222 -- at least if we engage effectively and advocate aggressively with the Company as we have done at various times in the past when there was sufficient "common ground" for worthwhile dialogue and creative compromise.
 
    So, please do review, comment and ask follow up questions based on Kelley's attached letter.  Thanks!
 
    Mike
 
Michael A. Mullett
723 Lafayette Avenue
Columbus, IN 47201
 
 
 
In a message dated 11/24/2020 1:35:36 PM US Eastern Standard Time, za...@solarunitedneighbors.org writes:
 
Thank you for sharing this Mike. And thanks for making the attachment shareable. You raise many good questions! We can reach out to our folks to see if any solar owners in SUN's network have received this same notice.

On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 12:30 PM Laura Ann Arnold <indian...@gmail.com> wrote:
Here is my two cents worth on this matter. I think this Duke Energy net metering customer should file a Customer Complaint with the IURC or at least indicate to the Duke Energy Indiana higher ups including Stan Pinegar and the legal department of the customer's belief that is a violation of their existing tariff. Someone should quickly check Duke's 30 day filings to see if they filed anything.
 
I also think that it would be helpful to identify as many Duke Energy Indiana net metering customers to see if they have received a similar notice.
 
I am happy to query IndianaDG member solar installers to see if their customers might have received a similar notification.
 
Laura

On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 12:04 PM Benjamin Inskeep <bins...@eq-research.com> wrote:
Hi Mike, 
Has Duke been authorized to make these changes or is this change permitted under current statutory language? This change from kWh credits to $ seems like a bad development that should be challenged. My understanding had been that under net metering, the utility nets kWh usage vs. kWh exports, so this bill change seems to be inaccurate and imply that customers are being paid for exports. 
For comparison, in Kentucky, SB 100 (2019) changed the statutory definition of net metering to be the "dollar value" rather than the kWh credit difference between exports and imports. I.e., utilities needed a change in statute to make this type of change.

On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 11:08 AM 'Mike Mullett' via Indiana Sustainable Energy Forum <indiana-s...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
All -
 
    FYI, I just received from a Columbus-area Net Metering customer (2047 grandfather) the attached Duke Energy Indiana notification of the imminent replacement of that household's analog electric meter with a new digital "smart" meter, along with the included image of the manner in which that meter change would be reflected on the customer's monthly bill. 
 
    The customer's name and address have been redacted for reasons of personal privacy so that the substantive content of the attached notice may be distributed as widely as anyone receiving this e-mail may wish.
 
    Please note especially the monetized (dollars and cents) rather than kwh credit to be shown on the bill.  Please further ponder the questions that the pictured suite of bill information leave unanswered:
 
    1.  How many kwh was the customer's NM credit before it was monetized?
    2.  At what aggregate energy rate was the NM credit monetized?
    3. What is the amount (kwh or $) of accrued credits remaining at the end of the billing period?
    4.  Will those customers currently receiving detailed bills with more information than the standard bill (most Net Metering customers, I would expect) still be receiving such bills and, if so, what additional information will be included in such bills?
 
    Others may well have additional questions which come to mind.   Is this matter one which should be raised with Duke, the OUCC, the IURC, the media, others?
 
    Please DO chime in!! Thanks!
 
    Mike  
 
Michael A. Mullett
Board Member & Advocacy Lead
Solarize Indiana, Inc.
Steering Committee Member
Columbus Community Solar Initiative
042-de-in-rider-57-net-metering.pdf
DEI Response Letter to Mullett.pdf
DEI Notice_Smart Meter Replacement_11-19-20.pdf

Nolan Hendon

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Jan 25, 2021, 2:38:38 PM1/25/21
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Hi all,

Thanks for all the information! I have a similar concern as to what was raised by Gene. I have an array that went online mid November. Duke installed an Itron OpenWay meter, which is a digital multichannel meter, and I can see energy purchased and energy exported on the display. I expected to see the "Net Metering Adj" line on my bill, as is shown on the notice Mike shared; however, my bills do not show this. I help manage several arrays for the City of Bloomington, and this is how all our sites have been billed for several years now (attached is an example of a City office building, showing the "Net Metering Adj" for what we put on the grid last month). 

I spoke with the Duke Renewable office, and they said my account shows as a single channel meter and they are billing me for the difference of what I used vs what I generated. I don't understand this logic, because if they are reading my meter as a single channel meter, I don't know how they could subtract what I generated from the bill. According to Kelley's letter, it sounds like they will continue to bill me this way until 2022?

I am also concerned, because, comparing December 2020's usage to the previous four Decembers, and taking into account my generation and energy purchased, I used far more electricity than any other time, despite having the array online the entire billing period and no significant changes in my energy use habits (see attached spreadsheet of monthly energy use/production). It seems my array didn't offset any energy use the way I'm being billed.

Thanks,
Nolan

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OfficeBill.pdf
HomeBill.pdf
HomeEnergyUse.xlsx

Nolan Hendon

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Feb 9, 2021, 3:44:02 PM2/9/21
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Hi Gene, all,

I thought I'd share this in case this is the same issue you or others are experiencing. I also was not being credited for the energy I was putting on the grid from my new solar array. Assuming you are producing enough to be periodically exporting energy to the grid, there should be a "Net Metering Adj" line on the billing summary section of your bill if you have a newer smart meter (you can see if you have exported to the grid by looking at the second "kWh" readout on the meter as the display scrolls through; if there's a non-zero value there, you have). After several phone calls with Duke's Customer Owned Generation division (866.233.2290 if you need it), we determined Duke was billing me as though I had an older meter that would run backwards and essentially net itself out, i.e. they were charging me for what I used, but not crediting me for what I exported. Once this was verified, they were able to notify the billing department and credit me for all my previous exported generation on my most recent bill.

Hope this helps. 

Nolan
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Arvind Gopu

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Feb 9, 2021, 4:30:48 PM2/9/21
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Hi Nolan,

Thanks for the update and the headsup -- super useful for those of us who may get a new meter in the future.

-a

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Alex Jorck

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Feb 9, 2021, 5:01:32 PM2/9/21
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Hi all,

As a heads up on that front, Duke is planning to replace all net metering customers' meters with the smart meter variety that Nolan referenced in the nearish future. So, billing errors following that switch will certainly be something to watch for.

Best,

Alex

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Michael A Mullett

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Feb 9, 2021, 7:06:48 PM2/9/21
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All -
 
    I am hearing the same thing from my Duke contacts -- all the rest of the Net Metering customers' meters should be changed out in 2021, with those which have not yet been changed out receiving approximately two weeks notice in advance of the change-out. 
 
    But, there is reportedly no advance schedule of those change-outs in existence -- just a "catch-as-catch-can" approach when time becomes available for a technician with "spare time" to do a change-out or change-outs that can be "fit" into his/her near-term work schedule.
 
    DEI regulatory personnel have promised and re-promised a meeting with solar advocates in advance of the Company's March 1 EDG Tariff filing to discuss several matters, including the meter change-outs and billing errors, but that promised meeting has not been scheduled yet and we are now less than three weeks from that filing date.
 
    Most disappointing, to say the least.
 
    Mike
 

Larry C

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Feb 12, 2021, 11:33:16 AM2/12/21
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Hello,

I am new here .. at least to posting a reply .. have been monitoring this thread from the beginning. Like most everyone else here I have a solar array that was installed last February that is interconnected with Duke with net metering and all the attendant benefits of that.

On Feb. 3 my old Duke meter that ran forwards and backwards depending on how much power was being consumed or produced was swapped out for one of the new "smart meters" which has the dual numbers as has been discussed here previously, one for consumption of energy FROM Duke and the other for production by one's solar system for export TO Duke .. or so I thought. When the new smart meter was first installed of course it started at all zeros for both numbers and when I read it 3 days after installation it showed 275 kWh used and 72 KWh produced (exported to the grid). The consumption number was about what I expected based on our usage this time of year (based off prior years before the solar array was installed) but the production number was a good bit lower than what my Enphase Enlighten production numbers were indicating which were at least 150 kWh. In the subsequent days I have been keeping a close watch on that 2nd number (ostensibly "production") and it has read (following the 72 on the 3rd day) .. 89, 89, 90, 90, and 90 (thru yesterday, Feb. 11). It is just baffling to me how in the first 3 days of having the new smart meter my 2nd number could shoot up to 72 and then in the succeeding 7 days only increase by a total of 18?!? ... and all under about the same weather and home power usage conditions.

So this morning I called Duke's Customer Owned Generation Division to ask more about this and I was told that that 2nd number .. is not actually what a customer's solar array has produced but rather the difference between what it produces and what is consumed by their home and that the first number is just what the customer is actually importing in (i.e., buying) from Duke. For those of you in a similar situation as mine is that your understanding?!? From earlier discussions in this thread I THOUGHT the 2nd number was supposed to be just the pure production numbers from one's array .. is that not right?

I would have thought (hoped) that now having a smart meter that was capable of measuring by consumption (inflow) and production (outflow) that it would be a simple process to come up with net usage either positive, the amount you would be having to pay Duke for the billing month .. or negative, the amount you would be earning in net metering credits (i.e., your kWh "in the bank" for offsetting any future bills where consumption was greater than production). And over time you would know exactly how much you were consuming and producing. Has Duke "muddied the waters" here with these new smart meters or am I just not understanding something?

Thoughts? .. comments? ...

Thanks,

Larry Cunningham

Andrew D. Arenson

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Feb 12, 2021, 12:29:47 PM2/12/21
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Our provider is IPL. Before turning on our solar generation, we had to get a new meter. The meter shows how much energy we've drawn from the grid and how much energy we've sent to the grid. It does NOT show how much energy we've generated. For that number I look at stats from our account with SolarEdge.

Andy
> > I thought I'd share this in case this is the same issue you or others are experiencing. I also was not being credited for the energy I was putting on the grid from my new solar array. Assuming you are producing enough to be periodically exporting energy to the grid, there should be a "Net Metering Adj" line on the billing summary section of your bill if you have a newer smart meter (you can see if you have exported to the grid by looking at the second "kWh" readout on the meter as the display scrolls through; if there's a non-zero value there, you have). After several phone calls with Duke's Customer Owned Generation division (866.233.2290 [1] if you need it), we determined Duke was billing me as though I had an older meter that would run backwards and essentially net itself out, i.e. they were charging me for what I used, but not crediting me for what I exported. Once this was verified, they were able to notify the billing department and credit me for all my previous exported
> > Has Duke been authorized to make these changes or is this change permitted under current statutory language? This change from kWh credits to $ seems like a bad development that should be challenged. My understanding had been that under net metering, the utility nets _kWh_ usage vs. _kWh_ exports, so this bill change seems to be inaccurate and imply that customers are being paid for exports.
> > For comparison, in Kentucky, SB 100 (2019) changed the statutory definition of net metering to be the "dollar value" rather than the kWh credit difference between exports and imports. I.e., utilities needed a change in statute to make this type of change.
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kgfleming

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Feb 12, 2021, 12:42:00 PM2/12/21
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Larry,

Your inverter is showing you your total solar production. You're using some of it the doesn't happen until it passes thru the inverter. The inverter doesn't measure how much of your solar you use vs. how much you put onto the grid. That's measured with one side of Duke's dual meter. Be grateful for what you get for production from Duke. Jackson REMC gives me $.029/kwh.

Kevin Fleming

Michael A Mullett

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Feb 12, 2021, 1:02:40 PM2/12/21
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Larry -
 
    What Andy says is true for both IPL and Duke (as well as Vectren) smart meters.  To my knowledge, ALL smart meters currently in use by Indiana utilities (including REMCs) work the same way.
 
    Essentially, your solar system is "wired" so that its electricity production goes first to your consumption before it crosses your meter and goes to the grid.  And, your "behind-the-meter" loads do not draw electricity from the grid through the meter so long as you have sufficient solar production to meet them.
 
    With the old analog, bi-directional dial meters, this process was the same but was disguised by the bidirectional dial speeding up, slowing down, or even reversing and spinning "backwards" as your levels of production and consumption varied.   But, with the new digital, dual register "smart" meters, each register is uni-directional, with "inflow" from the grid and "outflow" to the grid only staying the same or increasing, never decreasing, but with increases occurring at varying rates at different times.
 
    The only way that you can track and compile a complete record of your generation and consumption is to combine the information you receive from Duke with the information you receive from your solar monitoring system, combining them for the precise same periods of time, be they hourly, daily, weekly, or by monthly billing period.
 
    Mike 
 
Michael A. Mullett
Board Member & Advocacy Lead
Solarize Indiana, Inc.
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Arvind Gopu

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Feb 12, 2021, 1:21:27 PM2/12/21
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The only way that you can track and compile a complete record of your generation and consumption is to combine the information you receive from Duke with the information you receive from your solar monitoring system, combining them for the precise same periods of time, be they hourly, daily, weekly, or by monthly billing period.

Not sure there's much to be gained doing this but ... another option is to use Sense which tracks production and usage independent of each other. 

-a

Arvind Gopu

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Feb 12, 2021, 1:41:55 PM2/12/21
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Hi David,

This - https://sense.com/solar  .. a small IoT gadget with clamp meters that go around your main incoming power lines and the incoming solar tie into the breaker panel (assuming your solar setup is grid-tied), and uploads information to the cloud.

It provides information like this:

image.png

image.png
image.png
image.png

On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 1:32 PM Parkhurst, David F. <park...@indiana.edu> wrote:

Ray Wilson

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Feb 12, 2021, 1:54:52 PM2/12/21
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I agree with the explanation of Duke.  It is what you didn't use from your production.  So to know how much you use in a month, look at what your Enphase dashboard said you produced, subtract what you sent to the grid, which hopefully will be on your bill, and add what you bought from Duke.

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Michael A Mullett

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Feb 12, 2021, 1:59:05 PM2/12/21
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All -
 
    Automated home energy management systems are definitely the way to go from here on out for folks who want to do distributed solar along with other "Distributed Energy Resources."
 
    At this point, I am not myself ready to choose or endorse a particular home energy management system because there is a lot of innovation and integration already underway and lots more yet to come . . . .
 
    Mike
 
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Columbus, IN 47201
 
 
 

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Larry C

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Feb 12, 2021, 2:09:45 PM2/12/21
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Hi Kevin,

Thanks for the reply. I probably should have detailed my system a little better but what goes to and through the Duke meter (old OR new) is AC power as my system has microinverters at each panel and is congregated (if that is the right word?) and then transmitted from the array to the Duke meter. And that total production runs through a meter at the array as well as is displayed by my Enphase Enlighten software (web and phone apps). So all of the production goes to the meter. Now how it "mixes" at the meter in going to the grid vs. to my home I have no idea how that works and that's kind of what I want to know ... is the smart meter monitoring and displaying 2 pure "streams" of energy, one from my solar array and the other from the grid ... or does it work differently somehow? I would like to think it would show the 2 pure streams of energy ... but I am sure no expert and am looking for help here (don't think I can get a straight, honest answer from Duke .. or one that I have a lot of confidence in anyway).

Larry Cunnningham


On 2021-02-12 12:41 pm, kgfleming wrote:

Larry,
 
Your inverter is showing you your total solar production. You're using some of it the doesn't happen until it passes thru the inverter. The inverter doesn't measure how much of your solar you use vs. how much you put onto the grid. That's measured with one side of Duke's dual meter. Be grateful for what you get for production from Duke. Jackson REMC gives me $.029/kwh.
 
Kevin Fleming
 
-------- Original message --------
From: Larry C <lar...@ccrtc.com>
Date: 2/12/21 11:33 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: Michael A Mullett <mulle...@aol.com>
Subject: Re: [SIREN Discussion Forum] Duke Energy Net Metering Bill - What am I missing here?
 

Hello,

I am new here .. at least to posting a reply .. have been monitoring this thread from the beginning. Like most everyone else here I have a solar array that was installed last February that is interconnected with Duke with net metering and all the attendant benefits of that.

On Feb. 3 my old Duke meter that ran forwards and backwards depending on how much power was being consumed or produced was swapped out for one of the new "smart meters" which has the dual numbers as has been discussed here previously, one for consumption of energy FROM Duke and the other for production by one's solar system for export TO Duke .. or so I thought. When the new smart meter was first installed of course it started at all zeros for both numbers and when I read it 3 days after installation it showed 275 kWh used and 72 KWh produced (exported to the grid). The consumption number was about what I expected based on our usage this time of year (based off prior years before the solar array was installed) but the production number was a good bit lower than what my Enphase Enlighten production numbers were indicating which were at least 150 kWh. In the subsequent days I have been keeping a close watch on that 2nd number (ostensibly "production") and it has read (following the 72 on the 3rd day) .. 89, 89, 90, 90, and 90 (thru yesterday, Feb. 11). It is just baffling to me how in the first 3 days of having the new smart meter my 2nd number could shoot up to 72 and then in the succeeding 7 days only increase by a total of 18?!? ... and all under about the same weather and home power usage conditions.

So this morning I called Duke's Customer Owned Generation Division to ask more about this and I was told that that 2nd number .. is not actually what a customer's solar array has produced but rather the difference between what it produces and what is consumed by their home and that the first number is just what the customer is actually importing in (i.e., buying) from Duke. For those of you in a similar situation as mine is that your understanding?!? From earlier discussions in this thread I THOUGHT the 2nd number was supposed to be just the pure production numbers from one's array .. is that not right?

I would have thought (hoped) that now having a smart meter that was capable of measuring by consumption (inflow) and production (outflow) that it would be a simple process to come up with net usage either positive, the amount you would be having to pay Duke for the billing month .. or negative, the amount you would be earning in net metering credits (i.e., your kWh "in the bank" for offsetting any future bills where consumption was greater than production). And over time you would know exactly how much you were consuming and producing. Has Duke "muddied the waters" here with these new smart meters or am I just not understanding something?

Thoughts? .. comments? ...

Thanks,

Larry Cunningham


On 2021-02-09 7:06 pm, 'Michael A Mullett' via SIREN Public Discussion Forum wrote:

All -
 
    I am hearing the same thing from my Duke contacts -- all the rest of the Net Metering customers' meters should be changed out in 2021, with those which have not yet been changed out receiving approximately two weeks notice in advance of the change-out. 
 
    But, there is reportedly no advance schedule of those change-outs in existence -- just a "catch-as-catch-can" approach when time becomes available for a technician with "spare time" to do a change-out or change-outs that can be "fit" into his/her near-term work schedule.
 
    DEI regulatory personnel have promised and re-promised a meeting with solar advocates in advance of the Company's March 1 EDG Tariff filing to discuss several matters, including the meter change-outs and billing errors, but that promised meeting has not been scheduled yet and we are now less than three weeks from that filing date.
 
    Most disappointing, to say the least.
 
    Mike
 
Michael A. Mullett
723 Lafayette Avenue
Columbus, IN 47201
 
 
 
    Mike
 
Michael A. Mullett
723 Lafayette Avenue
Columbus, IN 47201
 
 
In a message dated 1/25/2021 11:53:41 AM US Eastern Standard Time, hlwin...@gmail.com writes:
 
What am I missing here?
On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 7:59 AM 'Michael A Mullett' via SIREN Public Discussion Forum <fo...@sirensolar.org> wrote:
Gene, All -
 
    According to a telephone conversation which I had on Friday with Duke Renewables in North Carolina (to which I was referred by DEI Customer Service here in Indiana), this information should be available to you on your bill on a billing period basis -- assuming that you now have a digital "smart" meter rather than a conventional analog meter. 
 
    The digital meter meter has dual registers, one for Inflow and the other for Outflow.  Outflow measures the amount of energy your solar system exports to the grid, cumulatively.  Neither the Inflow nor the Outflow register on the digital meter "goes backwards" the way that the single register, bi-directional analog meters did (and mine still does).  So, both Inflow and Outflow data is definitely available to the Company for Net Metering customers who have digital "smart" meters.  However, I have yet to hear first-hand from a Net Metering customer with a digital meter who has received a "new" bill from Duke to confirm what I was told about the information available to Net Metering customers on such a bill.  (Personally, I am still waiting for my analog meter to be "changed out" for a digital meter -- which I was advised will happen sometime in 2021 and for which I should receive approximately two weeks notice.  But, I was assured that I will receive a "new" bill for the same billing period during which my meter is "changed out.")
 
    Upon request, Duke will provide a print out of your accumulated credits at the end of a specified range of billing periods (an example of which was e-mailed to me at my request during my phone call on Friday).
 
    Duke is supposed to "reach out" to the solar advocates involved with the Indiana Sustainable Energy Forum (which includes several SIREN activists) prior to its March 1, 2020 Rate EDG Tariff filing to update us regarding its plans (including those for "grandfathered" Net Metering customers).  I expect this subject will come up again today during the virtual DEI IRP Statekholder Engagement Meeting No. 2, starting at 10:00 a.m. and resuming at 1:00 p.m. -- although it is not clear whether we will learn today a set date for that promised update.
 
    To obtain your total solar output for your system during any billing period, you will need to rely on your own Solar Meter and Solar Monitoring System which you obtained through your solar installer.
 
    If you want to talk about your own account and obtain the print-out I referenced above, you may call Duke Renewables at 866-233-2290.
 
    Mike Mullett
 
Michael A. Mullett
Board Member & Advocacy Lead
Solarize Indiana, Inc.
723 Lafayette Avenue
Columbus, IN 47201
 
 
 
In a message dated 1/24/2021 12:45:06 PM US Eastern Standard Time, edef...@gmail.com writes:
 
Hello all.
 
We've had our SolarEdge installation for a few months and are looking forward soon to the first month that we will actually produce enough excess energy to export. When that time comes, I would certainly like to know how much we are exporting. My understanding is that the net metering smart meter does not run backwards when you are exporting -- it just does not advance. And it won't advance again until the past earned credits are all used up.
 
What I can't seem to figure out is (since the meter does not run backwards) where to find an accounting of the monthly credits we have earned and used.
 
Does anyone know where to find that information?
 
Thanks.
 
-Gene
 
 
In a message dated 12/12/2020 3:53:28 PM US Eastern Standard Time, through fo...@sirensolar.org Mike Mullett writes:
 
    I certainly do hope that everyone who received my initial e-mail from last week with its attachment also received my e-mail from yesterday with its attachment -- a letter from Duke's regulatory counsel here in Indiana, Kelley Karn, answering most of the questions which I posed in my initial e-mail based on our prior ISEF and SIREN list-serve communications and discussions.  But, if not, hopefully you will receive and read this e-mail and its attachment.
 
    As much of a critic and skeptic as I have been of Duke over the years, I do believe that we should and can have a dialogue with Duke before that utility makes its EDG filing on March 1.  Like Kerwin, I believe that Duke wants to adopt a different approach to EDG implementation than Vectren chose -- not the one that we would prefer if we had the choice, but one that would provide the opportunity for the Duke EDG and PURPA tariffs for small DG customers in 2021 to offer a "bridge" to the coming Distributed Energy Resources world of FERC Order 2222 -- at least if we engage effectively and advocate aggressively with the Company as we have done at various times in the past when there was sufficient "common ground" for worthwhile dialogue and creative compromise.
 
    So, please do review, comment and ask follow up questions based on Kelley's attached letter.  Thanks!
 
    Mike
 
Michael A. Mullett
723 Lafayette Avenue
Columbus, IN 47201
 
 
 
723 Lafayette Avenue
Columbus, IN 47201
 

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kgfleming

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Feb 12, 2021, 8:28:52 PM2/12/21
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I'm sorry Larry but I'm not following you very well. Hopefully this is what you want to know. Your array sends current through your microinverters then to your Enphase inverter. Your Enphase inverter is connected to your home and to the Duke meter through which current passes on to the grid. If you put a slice of bread in your toaster it pulls current from your Enphase. If various loads in your home exceed the power available from your Enphase then it pulls current off of the grid, making your Duke usage meter spin. If your home does not pull all or any of your available solar current then that current goes out onto the grid. Your usage over a given period is the amount Enphase shows produced less the amount Dukes' meter indicates went to the grid, plus the amount the other Duke meter shows you pulled from the grid. Your savings is your solar usage at the retail rate you pay Duke for energy, plus the amount Dukes pays for power you sent to the grid.

Darrell Boggess

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Feb 12, 2021, 9:06:19 PM2/12/21
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Kevin,

I agree with your description except for the last comment about Duke “paying".  Net metering required by the state is a one for one exchange of energy without cash payment.  Valuable daytime solar energy kWh sent to the grid is exchanged for less valuable fossil fuel energy kWh received from the grid at night and on cloudy days.  

Pursuant to state law, this will be changing after June 2022 unless you are grandfathered under the current rate tariff.  Pending bills in the legislature could extend the current timeline if approved.

Enphase micro inverters are small self contained devices connected to each solar panel.  Their function is to change the solar cell DC to AC for delivery to your electrical circuits on the customer side of the meter.  The slightly higher voltage of solar energy produced on site effectively has the right of way in competition with lower voltage grid remote energy.  Therefore the solar kWh has priority for usage on the customer side of the meter and any excess goes through the Duke meter to the grid for use by your neighbor who pays retail price for your energy.  

Duke meters only measure energy flowing through the meter in either direction.  Your savings is the reduction of payment for grid energy not used.  Duke is not aware of how much energy is produced by solar generation.

According to the Solar Energy Industries Association , “Net metering is a billing mechanism that credits solar energy system owners for the electricity they add to the grid. For example, if a residential customer has a PV system, it may generate more electricity than the home uses during daylight hours. If the home is net-metered, the electricity meter will run backwards to provide a credit against what electricity is consumed at night or other periods where the home’s electricity use exceeds the system’s output. Customers are only billed for their “net” energy use. On average, only 20-40 percent of a solar energy system’s output goes into the grid. Exported solar electricity serves nearby customers’ loads.”

The Duke meters and its billing system are changing, are somewhat opaque and controversial, and are not very helpful to Duke solar customers.  

For about $500 you can get more complete information from a whole house energy monitor connected to your electrical panel.  see  https://sense.com/solar 


On Feb 12, 2021, at 8:28 PM, kgfleming <kgfl...@att.net> wrote:

I'm sorry Larry but I'm not following you very well. Hopefully this is what you want to know. Your array sends current through your microinverters then to your Enphase inverter. Your Enphase inverter is connected to your home and to the Duke meter through which current passes on to the grid. If you put a slice of bread in your toaster it pulls current from your Enphase. If various loads in your home exceed the power available from your Enphase then it pulls current off of the grid, making your Duke usage meter spin. If your home does not pull all or any of your available solar current then that current goes out onto the grid. Your usage over a given period is the amount Enphase shows produced less the amount Dukes' meter indicates went to the grid, plus the amount the other Duke meter shows you pulled from the grid. Your savings is your solar usage at the retail rate you pay Duke for energy, plus the amount Duke pays for power you sent to the grid.

Michael A Mullett

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Feb 14, 2021, 8:39:28 AM2/14/21
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Larry,
 
    To assure yourself that what you have been advised correctly by everyone who has responded to your inquiry on the SIREN list-serve, you should have a discussion with the vendor who installed your solar pv system to confirm how it works.  See also https://www.energysage.com/solar/101/net-metering-for-home-solar-panels/.
 
    But, bottom line, with Duke Energy Indiana, there are three ways that you receive a financial benefit from your solar pv system under Net Metering:
 
    1.  Your solar solar pv system reduces the amount of electricity which your home draws from the grid by offsetting your consumption instantaneously at the time both occur (i.e. the "Inflow" register on your "smart" meter shows fewer kwh than would have been the case if you had no solar pv system); 
 
    2.  To the extent that your solar pv system produces more electricity than your consumption at the time both occur, the "Outflow" register on your "smart" meter records that "excess generation" in kwh:
 
    a.  If that "excess generation" is less than the amount of kwh shown on your "Inflow" register at the end of a billing period, then that amount of "Outflow" is subtracted from the amount of "Inflow" and DEI charges you the full retail energy rate (including base rates and trackers) only for the difference; and
 
    b.  If that "excess generation" is more than the amount of kwh shown on your "Inflow" register at the end of a billing period, then the amount of "Inflow" is subtracted from the amount of "Outflow" and DEI charges you nothing for the "Outlfow" and credits the difference to your account to be carried over to offset consumption in a future billing period.  (In this case, the amount of your bill is only your fixed charge plus taxes).
 
    Given the seasonal manner in which solar pv systems generate electricity and most residences consume energy, you are most likely to be able to see all three ways that your solar pv system saves you money in "Spring" and "Fall" and least likely to do so in "Winter" billing periods.
 
    In the larger world beyond Duke Energy Indiana, there are what are known as "Buy All, Sell All" interconnections, but Net Metering interconnections from Duke Energy Indiana are NOT "Buy All, Sell All" interconnections.   And, rest assured, as a retail customer, you would MUCH rather have a Net Metering interconnection and NOT a "Buy All, Sell All" interconnection with respect to the financial benefit you receive from your system.  (In this respect, I would also note that your Duke bill should have a small note "Net Metering applicable" somewhere on it).
 
    Keep researching and learning about your solar system because the larger world is changing and the opportunities associated with distributed solar generation will increase in number and complexity as time goes by.   As Arvin recommended, for example, you might well want to check out the Sense monitoring and reporting software; if you are really curious, you might also want to follow the commentary in the solar trade press online as to the longer-term implications of FERC Order 2222, "time-of-production and consumption" pricing for electricity, and what are known as "Distributed Energy Resources" such as battery storage, electric vehicles, nanogrids and microgrids.
 
    The emerging marketplace for distributed solar energy is fascinating as well as exciting (as well as encouraging for those of us who do not like the consequences of either global warming due to fossil fuels or the "dead weight social welfare loss" of electricity monopolies under market conditions where competition is feasible).
 
    GO SOLAR!!
 
    Mike
 
Michael A. Mullett
Board Member & Advocacy Lead
Solarize Indiana, Inc.

Gene DeFelice

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Feb 14, 2021, 6:18:15 PM2/14/21
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Wow! Great discussion.

So this is what I understand to be the answer(s) to my original question.
  • Analog meters will simply run backwards when the flow of electricity through them is reversed.
  • My SMART METER does not contain any register that runs backwards.
  • My SMART METER has two registers that run forward accumulating energy (kWh) flow values for flow in each direction.
One register accumulates the amount of energy that is being IMPORTED from the grid (which I assume is the value in this picture).

IMG_7439.jpg

The other register accumulates the amount of excess energy (over my household load) that the solar array produces that is being EXPORTED to the grid. The SMART METER alternates between two displays, so I assume that the value in this picture would represent the amount of energy that I have exported.

.IMG_7440.jpg

(I would have expected this to maybe at least read 00000 or something like that.)

I should not expect this kWh export value (or a calculated monthly value) to show up anywhere on my Duke NET METERING bill.

What I would expect to see on my bill is a credit (in $) that is equivalent to the value of the energy that I exported for that month (plus any additional credit banked from previous months) up to the $ value of (but not exceeding) the amount of energy that I imported that month.

I would never expect the $ value of this EXPORT (net metering) credit to exceed the $ value of the IMPORT charge in any given month.

This is calculated by hand and added to the bill in the "back office" and the "back office" may or may be totally 100% aware of it you have an Analog meter or a SMART METER and may or may not be applying the credit properly.
image.png
image.png

The only options to keep tabs on the actual amount of energy that I may be exporting on a monthly basis are:
  • Read the meter myself on the day that corresponds to the end of my billing cycle and give MS Excel a lot of love.
  • Install my own monitoring system (such as a $350 Sense Monitor).
  • Call DUKE monthly and ask them what my credit was in kWh for that month and what my total current credit is.
Supposedly this will all be better in 2023 (or something like that) when DUKE upgrades their billing system to automate the process.

I'm trying to reconcile my understanding with what Mike said in 2A and 2Bin his recent response.

> 2.  To the extent that your solar PV system produces more electricity than your consumption at the time both occur, the "Outflow" register on your "smart" meter records that "excess generation" in kwh.

Export_Register_Current_kWh = <"Outflow" register > = <"excess generation" >
Import_Register_Current_kWh = <"Inflow" register>

> 2a.  If that "excess generation" is less than the amount of kwh shown on your "Inflow" register at the end of a billing period, then that amount of "Outflow" is subtracted from the amount of "Inflow" and DEI charges you the full retail energy rate (including base rates and trackers) only for the difference;

It seems like Mike might be saying this:

IF Export_Register_Current_kWh < Import_Register_Current_kWh
THEN Billed_Energy_Value_$ = (Import_Register_Current_kWh - Export_Register_Current_kWh) * Retail_Energy_Rate_$_per_kWh

But that does not quite make sense to me.

This makes more sense:

Export_kWh_Month = Export_Register_Current - Export_Register_Last
Import_kWh_Month = Import_Register_Current - Import Register_Last

IF Export_kWh_Month <= Import_kWh_Month THEN
Billed_Energy_Value_$ = (Import_kWh - Export_kWh) * Retail_Energy_Rate_$_per_kWh

Still not quite my understanding, but closer.

>b.  If that "excess generation" is more than the amount of kwh shown on your "Inflow" register at the end of a billing period, then the amount of "Inflow" is subtracted from the amount of "Outflow" and DEI charges you nothing for the "Outlfow" (?) and credits the difference to your account to be carried over to offset consumption in a future billing period.  (In this case, the amount of your bill is only your fixed charge plus taxes).

IF Export_Register_Current_kWh > Import_Register_Current_kWh THEN
Total_Credit_kWh = Total_Credit_kWh + (Export_Register_Current_kWh - Import_Register_Current_kWh)
Billed_Energy_Value_$ = 0

That doesn't quite make sense to me either.

This is the best that I can wrap my head around it:
  • My EXPORT (kWh) for the month is the difference between this month's reading and last month's reading.
    • This is not shown on my Duke Energy Net Metering bill.
  • My IMPORT for the month is the difference between this month's reading and last month's reading.
  • My CREDITS (kWh) are equal to the EXPORT (kWh) value and are added to my previously accumulated CREDITS.
    • This is not shown on my Duke Energy Net Metering bill.
  • My CHARGES ($) for the month are equal to the IMPORT (kWh) value multiplied by the retail energy rate.
Export_kWh_Month = Export_Register_Current - Export_Register_Last
Import_kWh_Month = Import_Register_Current - Import Register_Last
kWh_Credits = kWh_Credits + Export_kWh_Month
Current_Electric_Chages _$ = Import_kWh_Month * Retail_Energy_Rate_$_per_kWh

If I have no CREDITS:
  • I get billed for all of my IMPORTED energy.
IF kWh_Credits = 0 THEN
Net_Metering_Adjustment_$ = 0
Billed_Energy_Value_$ = Current_Electric_Chages _$

If I have more than enough CREDITS to cover my IMPORTED energy:
  • I don't get billed for any of my IMPORTED energy.
  • Credits get deducted to cover the IMPORT.
ELSE IF kWh_Credits > Import_kWh_Month THEN
Net_Metering_Adjustment_$ = Current_Electric_Charges_$
Billed_Energy_Value_$ = 0
kWh_Credits = kWh_Credits - Import_kWh

If I don't have enough CREDITS to cover my IMPORTED energy:
  • My remaining credits get applied to cover as much IMPORTED energy as possible.
  • I get billed for the excess IMPORTED energy.
ELSE IF kWh_Credits > 0 AND kWh_Credits <= Import_kWh_Month THEN
Net_Metering_Adjustment_$ = kWh_Credits * Retail_Energy_Rate_$_per_kWh
Billed_Energy_Value_$ = Current_Electric_Charges_$ - Net_Metering_Adjustment_$
kWh_Credits = 0

And, again, the frustrating thing about this is that DUKE does not report the value of my kWh_Credits on my monthly bill even though they clearly need to track this in the "back office" in order to calculate any monthly credits they apply and know if  and when I run out.

If I have a sufficiently oversized system, I should not have to pay for any IMPORTED energy for the life of my system (or at least until NET METERING ends).  My credits should just continue to accumulate until such time I terminate my service. At that time, I forfeit all of my remaining accumulated credits to Duke.

-Gene

Michael A Mullett

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Feb 15, 2021, 9:02:19 AM2/15/21
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Gene -
 
    From what I can tell from what I have seen so far, I would say that you "have got it" -- at least for the most part!
 
    I appreciate you actually showing the face of your new "smart" meter; it differs from others which I have seen.  In particular, I only see one visible LCD display but not the whole face of your meter.  [NOTE:  Duke has NOT yet replaced my standard meter with a "smart" meter so I do not yet have a meter face or  LCD display of my own to compare with what you have e-mailed me].
 
    From what I can see, it appears that you only have that one visible LCD display, which "runs" sequentially through cumulative "DEL", cumulative "NET" and cumulative "REC"  Is that correct?  [Since DET is apparently showing 8888 every time it appears in sequence, I would surmise that means it has not registered any amount of electricity and may simply be an LCD which shows that your meter is operating and "synced"-- but I have not (yet) found any information Duke has posted online which explicitly defines the purpose of the DET LCD].
 
    Assuming I am correctly understanding the information you have sent in your e-mail, that is what I would infer from what I can read in your e-mail:
 

DEL:  This is the cumulative kilowatt-hours of electricity delivered from the grid since the meter was installed. It indicates energy delivered to you by DEI (aka "Inflow") as measured by an internal register which does not have a separate LCD display on the face of the meter;

REC: This is the cumulative kilowatt-hours of electricity you have sent to the grid since the meter was installed. It indicates energy produced by your solar energy system at times in excess of what was used in your home or business (aka "Outflow") as measured by a register which does not have a separate LCD display on the face of the meter; and 

NET: This is the cumulative kilowatt-hours of electricity equal to the total amount delivered (aka "Inflow") minus the total amount received (aka "Outflow") since your meter was installed as computed by Duke.  [I cannot be sure from what I see in your e-mail whether your LCD display can show both positive and negative numbers depending on whether your cumulative "Inflow" exceeds your cumulative "Outflow" or vice-versa.  Looking at the graph in your bill, it would certainly appear that you have not had any billing period in the last year in which your "Outflow" exceeded your "Inflow" and your "Net" has been fairly consistent around an average of about 1200 kwh per billing period.  Given the 3369 kwh shown in your e-mail, I would infer that your new "smart" meter was installed not quite three months ago.]

To determine your monthly usage, just like your old meter, you need to look at these numbers relative to your last meter reading, which should be shown on your bill [although I do not see it in what you included in your e-mail]. The numbers shown on the LCD display do not reset at each meter reading, but they tally up the cumulative electricity flows since the meter was installed.

    You should also be able to access online your customer account which now should have a "portal" which allows you to receive certain information the Company has extracted from your meter and chosen to display for your review.   It would be most helpful (to you and to me) to know what is currently being displayed in your customer portal.
 
    It would also be helpful to know what the solar meter installed with or on the inverter for your solar pv system shows concurrently with your Duke smart meter and what data you can obtain from the monitoring and reporting system you acquired with your pv system (most likely Enphase or SolarEdge).
 
    Without more information, I have NO basis whatever to speculate as to the derivation or explanation for the Bill Summary and Net Metering Adjustment shown at the bottom of your most recent bill.   Given the dollar amounts shown, it would appear to be an annual summary or reconciliation of unknown derivation.
 
    I hope this additional commentary on my part helps -- but you do have a complex puzzle to put together and definitely need more information to complete that task with confidence!

 
--
Nolan Hendon
nhe...@gmail.com

Larry C

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Feb 19, 2021, 8:11:25 AM2/19/21
to Michael A Mullett, kgfl...@att.net, al...@wholesundesigns.com, arvin...@gmail.com, nhe...@gmail.com, edef...@gmail.com, hlwin...@gmail.com, fo...@sirensolar.org

Mike (and everyone else who has responded earlier),

Thank you for the help you have provided me to better understand how the Duke smart meters work and, indeed, how my solar energy production benefits me overall.

Really glad to be a part of this forum!

Regards to all,

Larry

Michael Regoli

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Feb 19, 2021, 8:48:56 AM2/19/21
to Larry C, Michael A Mullett, kgfleming, al...@wholesundesigns.com, arvin...@gmail.com, nhe...@gmail.com, edef...@gmail.com, hlwin...@gmail.com, fo...@sirensolar.org

This has been a great discussion! And to the comment that the Duke “smart meters” don’t indicate which direction the meter is “spinning,” that’s incorrect. If you notice the three squares in this photo, keep an eye on them when the meter is either delivering power from the grid or when the PV system is sending power to the grid. They will animate—traveling/blinking left to right when to power is coming in, or travel right to left when solar is feeding the grid. —michael 



John Bassett

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Feb 19, 2021, 1:17:04 PM2/19/21
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Correct.  The little bars in the red box in Michael’s pic below show whether you are using power off the grid, or putting power on the grid.  If you are putting power on the grid and you came back and looked at the meter after an hour or so you will see a reading of something less than 53 kWhr.

 

The confusing thing to me comes in the Duke meter reading / billing.  Let’s suppose the meter dude showed up at your house a month ago, read the meter, and it said 70 kWhr.  Further assume for illustration that this is the highest value the meter has ever shown (they are showing cumulative power since Day 1).  Now, dude  shows up today and reads the meter, as below, at 53 kWhr.

 

When we get our Duke bill the mouth, the meter reading will show as 70 kWhr, not the 53 kWhr that the meter showed when it was read.  So Duke subtracts 70 kWhr – 70 kWhr and says we used 0 kWhr for the month.  There is no indication on the bill that we put a net 17 kWhr on the grid during the month.  If you are interested in what your “credit” is, you have to keep track of it yourself.

 

So, the best ways I have found to keep track of how much power we used / supplied billing month to billing month is to read the meter at, or near the same time,  as Duke, run a SolarEdge report on how much we generated during the month and do the math.

 

Maybe people have a Duke billing the behaves differently, I don’t know.

 

John B



image002.png

Dan Tracey

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Feb 19, 2021, 1:50:56 PM2/19/21
to John Bassett, Michael Regoli, Larry C, Michael A Mullett, kgfleming, Alex Jorck, arvin...@gmail.com, nhe...@gmail.com, edef...@gmail.com, hlwin...@gmail.com, fo...@sirensolar.org
Like John said, 

What I do is try to keep track of the highest NET number that has ever been on the meter.  As long as the reading is below that number I know that I am in the black so to speak and I have power credit sitting out there in the grid. For example, early March last year I was at around 850 kW on the meter.  It spun backwards until I got to about -900 kW at the end of summer.  Right now it’s reading about 400.  So I have 450 kW in the bank before I owe Duke any money (850kW-400).  From what John said it sounds like I can find the peak number on my bill somewhere.  

Also, there was some discussion about the other screen on the smart meter.  On my meter that always flashes 88888.  My guess is that the screen allows  iDuke to somehow read information from your meter but it doesn’t provide any information to you as the customer. 



On Feb 19, 2021, at 1:16 PM, John Bassett <jbas...@bluemarble.net> wrote:

Correct.  The little bars in the red box in Michael’s pic below show whether you are using power off the grid, or putting power on the grid.  If you are putting power on the grid and you came back and looked at the meter after an hour or so you will see a reading of something less than 53 kWhr.
 
The confusing thing to me comes in the Duke meter reading / billing.  Let’s suppose the meter dude showed up at your house a month ago, read the meter, and it said 70 kWhr.  Further assume for illustration that this is the highest value the meter has ever shown (they are showing cumulative power since Day 1).  Now, dude  shows up today and reads the meter, as below, at 53 kWhr.
 
When we get our Duke bill the mouth, the meter reading will show as 70 kWhr, not the 53 kWhr that the meter showed when it was read.  So Duke subtracts 70 kWhr – 70 kWhr and says we used 0 kWhr for the month.  There is no indication on the bill that we put a net 17 kWhr on the grid during the month.  If you are interested in what your “credit” is, you have to keep track of it yourself.
 
So, the best ways I have found to keep track of how much power we used / supplied billing month to billing month is to read the meter at, or near the same time,  as Duke, run a SolarEdge report on how much we generated during the month and do the math.
 
Maybe people have a Duke billing the behaves differently, I don’t know.
 
John B
 
From: Michael Regoli <reg...@gmail.com> 
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2021 8:49 AM
To: Larry C <lar...@ccrtc.com>
Cc: Michael A Mullett <mulle...@aol.com>; kgfleming <kgfl...@att.net>; al...@wholesundesigns.com; arvin...@gmail.com; nhe...@gmail.com; edef...@gmail.com; hlwin...@gmail.com; fo...@sirensolar.org
Subject: Re: [SIREN Discussion Forum] Duke Energy Net Metering Bill - What am I missing here?
 
 
This has been a great discussion! And to the comment that the Duke “smart meters” don’t indicate which direction the meter is “spinning,” that’s incorrect. If you notice the three squares in this photo, keep an eye on them when the meter is either delivering power from the grid or when the PV system is sending power to the grid. They will animate—traveling/blinking left to right when to power is coming in, or travel right to left when solar is feeding the grid. —michael 
 
<image002.png>

Darrell Boggess

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Feb 19, 2021, 2:16:47 PM2/19/21
to SIREN Public Discussion Forum
John,

In my view, the source of confusion is the Duke billing system for net metering customers which is processed manually and separate from their automated system.

When you have kWh credits on your account, the “current” and “previous” kWh readings are both the same as the previous highest amount.  For example, my meter goes backward from March through October and then goes forward until February.  Our Duke bill has shown the identical two numbers since March 2012.  This week our account credit is hundreds of kWh accumulated over almost a decade.  The Duke billing office knows the numbers and will provide data if requested.

Other electric companies have more complete information on their bills.  A few questions to Duke customer service might encourage the company to modernize their system.


On Feb 19, 2021, at 1:16 PM, John Bassett <jbas...@bluemarble.net> wrote:

Gene DeFelice

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Feb 19, 2021, 6:09:28 PM2/19/21
to Darrell Boggess, SIREN Public Discussion Forum
Michael M asked:

>From what I can see, it appears that you only have that one visible LCD display, which "runs" sequentially through cumulative "DEL", cumulative "NET" and cumulative "REC"  Is that correct?

The answer is no. It cycles through two displays: NET and 88888

-Gene

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