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On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 7:59 AM 'Michael A Mullett' via SIREN Public Discussion Forum <fo...@sirensolar.org> wrote:
Gene, All -According to a telephone conversation which I had on Friday with Duke Renewables in North Carolina (to which I was referred by DEI Customer Service here in Indiana), this information should be available to you on your bill on a billing period basis -- assuming that you now have a digital "smart" meter rather than a conventional analog meter.The digital meter meter has dual registers, one for Inflow and the other for Outflow. Outflow measures the amount of energy your solar system exports to the grid, cumulatively. Neither the Inflow nor the Outflow register on the digital meter "goes backwards" the way that the single register, bi-directional analog meters did (and mine still does). So, both Inflow and Outflow data is definitely available to the Company for Net Metering customers who have digital "smart" meters. However, I have yet to hear first-hand from a Net Metering customer with a digital meter who has received a "new" bill from Duke to confirm what I was told about the information available to Net Metering customers on such a bill. (Personally, I am still waiting for my analog meter to be "changed out" for a digital meter -- which I was advised will happen sometime in 2021 and for which I should receive approximately two weeks notice. But, I was assured that I will receive a "new" bill for the same billing period during which my meter is "changed out.")Upon request, Duke will provide a print out of your accumulated credits at the end of a specified range of billing periods (an example of which was e-mailed to me at my request during my phone call on Friday).Duke is supposed to "reach out" to the solar advocates involved with the Indiana Sustainable Energy Forum (which includes several SIREN activists) prior to its March 1, 2020 Rate EDG Tariff filing to update us regarding its plans (including those for "grandfathered" Net Metering customers). I expect this subject will come up again today during the virtual DEI IRP Statekholder Engagement Meeting No. 2, starting at 10:00 a.m. and resuming at 1:00 p.m. -- although it is not clear whether we will learn today a set date for that promised update.
To obtain your total solar output for your system during any billing period, you will need to rely on your own Solar Meter and Solar Monitoring System which you obtained through your solar installer.If you want to talk about your own account and obtain the print-out I referenced above, you may call Duke Renewables at 866-233-2290.Mike Mullett
In a message dated 1/24/2021 12:45:06 PM US Eastern Standard Time, edef...@gmail.com writes:Michael A. MullettBoard Member & Advocacy LeadSolarize Indiana, Inc.723 Lafayette AvenueColumbus, IN 47201Phone: (812) 350-0707E-Mail: mulle...@aol.com
Hello all.
We've had our SolarEdge installation for a few months and are looking forward soon to the first month that we will actually produce enough excess energy to export. When that time comes, I would certainly like to know how much we are exporting. My understanding is that the net metering smart meter does not run backwards when you are exporting -- it just does not advance. And it won't advance again until the past earned credits are all used up.What I can't seem to figure out is (since the meter does not run backwards) where to find an accounting of the monthly credits we have earned and used.Does anyone know where to find that information?Thanks.-Gene
In a message dated 12/12/2020 3:53:28 PM US Eastern Standard Time, through fo...@sirensolar.org Mike Mullett writes:I certainly do hope that everyone who received my initial e-mail from last week with its attachment also received my e-mail from yesterday with its attachment -- a letter from Duke's regulatory counsel here in Indiana, Kelley Karn, answering most of the questions which I posed in my initial e-mail based on our prior ISEF and SIREN list-serve communications and discussions. But, if not, hopefully you will receive and read this e-mail and its attachment.As much of a critic and skeptic as I have been of Duke over the years, I do believe that we should and can have a dialogue with Duke before that utility makes its EDG filing on March 1. Like Kerwin, I believe that Duke wants to adopt a different approach to EDG implementation than Vectren chose -- not the one that we would prefer if we had the choice, but one that would provide the opportunity for the Duke EDG and PURPA tariffs for small DG customers in 2021 to offer a "bridge" to the coming Distributed Energy Resources world of FERC Order 2222 -- at least if we engage effectively and advocate aggressively with the Company as we have done at various times in the past when there was sufficient "common ground" for worthwhile dialogue and creative compromise.So, please do review, comment and ask follow up questions based on Kelley's attached letter. Thanks!MikeMichael A. Mullett
In a message dated 11/24/2020 1:35:36 PM US Eastern Standard Time, za...@solarunitedneighbors.org writes:Thank you for sharing this Mike. And thanks for making the attachment shareable. You raise many good questions! We can reach out to our folks to see if any solar owners in SUN's network have received this same notice.
On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 12:30 PM Laura Ann Arnold <indian...@gmail.com> wrote:Here is my two cents worth on this matter. I think this Duke Energy net metering customer should file a Customer Complaint with the IURC or at least indicate to the Duke Energy Indiana higher ups including Stan Pinegar and the legal department of the customer's belief that is a violation of their existing tariff. Someone should quickly check Duke's 30 day filings to see if they filed anything.I also think that it would be helpful to identify as many Duke Energy Indiana net metering customers to see if they have received a similar notice.I am happy to query IndianaDG member solar installers to see if their customers might have received a similar notification.Laura
On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 12:04 PM Benjamin Inskeep <bins...@eq-research.com> wrote:Hi Mike,Has Duke been authorized to make these changes or is this change permitted under current statutory language? This change from kWh credits to $ seems like a bad development that should be challenged. My understanding had been that under net metering, the utility nets kWh usage vs. kWh exports, so this bill change seems to be inaccurate and imply that customers are being paid for exports.For comparison, in Kentucky, SB 100 (2019) changed the statutory definition of net metering to be the "dollar value" rather than the kWh credit difference between exports and imports. I.e., utilities needed a change in statute to make this type of change.
Ben Inskeep | Principal Energy Policy Analyst
On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 11:08 AM 'Mike Mullett' via Indiana Sustainable Energy Forum <indiana-s...@googlegroups.com> wrote:All -FYI, I just received from a Columbus-area Net Metering customer (2047 grandfather) the attached Duke Energy Indiana notification of the imminent replacement of that household's analog electric meter with a new digital "smart" meter, along with the included image of the manner in which that meter change would be reflected on the customer's monthly bill.The customer's name and address have been redacted for reasons of personal privacy so that the substantive content of the attached notice may be distributed as widely as anyone receiving this e-mail may wish.Please note especially the monetized (dollars and cents) rather than kwh credit to be shown on the bill. Please further ponder the questions that the pictured suite of bill information leave unanswered:1. How many kwh was the customer's NM credit before it was monetized?2. At what aggregate energy rate was the NM credit monetized?3. What is the amount (kwh or $) of accrued credits remaining at the end of the billing period?4. Will those customers currently receiving detailed bills with more information than the standard bill (most Net Metering customers, I would expect) still be receiving such bills and, if so, what additional information will be included in such bills?Others may well have additional questions which come to mind. Is this matter one which should be raised with Duke, the OUCC, the IURC, the media, others?Please DO chime in!! Thanks!Mike
Michael A. MullettBoard Member & Advocacy LeadSolarize Indiana, Inc.
Steering Committee MemberColumbus Community Solar Initiative
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Hello,
I am new here .. at least to posting a reply .. have been monitoring this thread from the beginning. Like most everyone else here I have a solar array that was installed last February that is interconnected with Duke with net metering and all the attendant benefits of that.
On Feb. 3 my old Duke meter that ran forwards and backwards depending on how much power was being consumed or produced was swapped out for one of the new "smart meters" which has the dual numbers as has been discussed here previously, one for consumption of energy FROM Duke and the other for production by one's solar system for export TO Duke .. or so I thought. When the new smart meter was first installed of course it started at all zeros for both numbers and when I read it 3 days after installation it showed 275 kWh used and 72 KWh produced (exported to the grid). The consumption number was about what I expected based on our usage this time of year (based off prior years before the solar array was installed) but the production number was a good bit lower than what my Enphase Enlighten production numbers were indicating which were at least 150 kWh. In the subsequent days I have been keeping a close watch on that 2nd number (ostensibly "production") and it has read (following the 72 on the 3rd day) .. 89, 89, 90, 90, and 90 (thru yesterday, Feb. 11). It is just baffling to me how in the first 3 days of having the new smart meter my 2nd number could shoot up to 72 and then in the succeeding 7 days only increase by a total of 18?!? ... and all under about the same weather and home power usage conditions.
So this morning I called Duke's Customer Owned Generation Division to ask more about this and I was told that that 2nd number .. is not actually what a customer's solar array has produced but rather the difference between what it produces and what is consumed by their home and that the first number is just what the customer is actually importing in (i.e., buying) from Duke. For those of you in a similar situation as mine is that your understanding?!? From earlier discussions in this thread I THOUGHT the 2nd number was supposed to be just the pure production numbers from one's array .. is that not right?
I would have thought (hoped) that now having a smart meter that was capable of measuring by consumption (inflow) and production (outflow) that it would be a simple process to come up with net usage either positive, the amount you would be having to pay Duke for the billing month .. or negative, the amount you would be earning in net metering credits (i.e., your kWh "in the bank" for offsetting any future bills where consumption was greater than production). And over time you would know exactly how much you were consuming and producing. Has Duke "muddied the waters" here with these new smart meters or am I just not understanding something?
Thoughts? .. comments? ...
Thanks,
Larry Cunningham
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The only way that you can track and compile a complete record of your generation and consumption is to combine the information you receive from Duke with the information you receive from your solar monitoring system, combining them for the precise same periods of time, be they hourly, daily, weekly, or by monthly billing period.
I agree with the explanation of Duke. It is what you didn't use
from your production. So to know how much you use in a month,
look at what your Enphase dashboard said you produced, subtract
what you sent to the grid, which hopefully will be on your bill,
and add what you bought from Duke.
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Hi Kevin,
Thanks for the reply. I probably should have detailed my system a little better but what goes to and through the Duke meter (old OR new) is AC power as my system has microinverters at each panel and is congregated (if that is the right word?) and then transmitted from the array to the Duke meter. And that total production runs through a meter at the array as well as is displayed by my Enphase Enlighten software (web and phone apps). So all of the production goes to the meter. Now how it "mixes" at the meter in going to the grid vs. to my home I have no idea how that works and that's kind of what I want to know ... is the smart meter monitoring and displaying 2 pure "streams" of energy, one from my solar array and the other from the grid ... or does it work differently somehow? I would like to think it would show the 2 pure streams of energy ... but I am sure no expert and am looking for help here (don't think I can get a straight, honest answer from Duke .. or one that I have a lot of confidence in anyway).
Larry Cunnningham
On 2021-02-12 12:41 pm, kgfleming wrote:
Larry,Your inverter is showing you your total solar production. You're using some of it the doesn't happen until it passes thru the inverter. The inverter doesn't measure how much of your solar you use vs. how much you put onto the grid. That's measured with one side of Duke's dual meter. Be grateful for what you get for production from Duke. Jackson REMC gives me $.029/kwh.Kevin Fleming
-------- Original message --------From: Larry C <lar...@ccrtc.com>Date: 2/12/21 11:33 AM (GMT-05:00)To: Michael A Mullett <mulle...@aol.com>
Cc: al...@wholesundesigns.com, arvin...@gmail.com, nhe...@gmail.com, edef...@gmail.com, hlwin...@gmail.com, fo...@sirensolar.orgSubject: Re: [SIREN Discussion Forum] Duke Energy Net Metering Bill - What am I missing here?
Hello,
I am new here .. at least to posting a reply .. have been monitoring this thread from the beginning. Like most everyone else here I have a solar array that was installed last February that is interconnected with Duke with net metering and all the attendant benefits of that.
On Feb. 3 my old Duke meter that ran forwards and backwards depending on how much power was being consumed or produced was swapped out for one of the new "smart meters" which has the dual numbers as has been discussed here previously, one for consumption of energy FROM Duke and the other for production by one's solar system for export TO Duke .. or so I thought. When the new smart meter was first installed of course it started at all zeros for both numbers and when I read it 3 days after installation it showed 275 kWh used and 72 KWh produced (exported to the grid). The consumption number was about what I expected based on our usage this time of year (based off prior years before the solar array was installed) but the production number was a good bit lower than what my Enphase Enlighten production numbers were indicating which were at least 150 kWh. In the subsequent days I have been keeping a close watch on that 2nd number (ostensibly "production") and it has read (following the 72 on the 3rd day) .. 89, 89, 90, 90, and 90 (thru yesterday, Feb. 11). It is just baffling to me how in the first 3 days of having the new smart meter my 2nd number could shoot up to 72 and then in the succeeding 7 days only increase by a total of 18?!? ... and all under about the same weather and home power usage conditions.
So this morning I called Duke's Customer Owned Generation Division to ask more about this and I was told that that 2nd number .. is not actually what a customer's solar array has produced but rather the difference between what it produces and what is consumed by their home and that the first number is just what the customer is actually importing in (i.e., buying) from Duke. For those of you in a similar situation as mine is that your understanding?!? From earlier discussions in this thread I THOUGHT the 2nd number was supposed to be just the pure production numbers from one's array .. is that not right?
I would have thought (hoped) that now having a smart meter that was capable of measuring by consumption (inflow) and production (outflow) that it would be a simple process to come up with net usage either positive, the amount you would be having to pay Duke for the billing month .. or negative, the amount you would be earning in net metering credits (i.e., your kWh "in the bank" for offsetting any future bills where consumption was greater than production). And over time you would know exactly how much you were consuming and producing. Has Duke "muddied the waters" here with these new smart meters or am I just not understanding something?
Thoughts? .. comments? ...
Thanks,
Larry Cunningham
On 2021-02-09 7:06 pm, 'Michael A Mullett' via SIREN Public Discussion Forum wrote:
All -I am hearing the same thing from my Duke contacts -- all the rest of the Net Metering customers' meters should be changed out in 2021, with those which have not yet been changed out receiving approximately two weeks notice in advance of the change-out.But, there is reportedly no advance schedule of those change-outs in existence -- just a "catch-as-catch-can" approach when time becomes available for a technician with "spare time" to do a change-out or change-outs that can be "fit" into his/her near-term work schedule.DEI regulatory personnel have promised and re-promised a meeting with solar advocates in advance of the Company's March 1 EDG Tariff filing to discuss several matters, including the meter change-outs and billing errors, but that promised meeting has not been scheduled yet and we are now less than three weeks from that filing date.Most disappointing, to say the least.
Mike
Michael A. Mullett723 Lafayette AvenueColumbus, IN 47201Phone: (812) 350-0707E-Mail: mulle...@aol.com
Mike
Michael A. Mullett723 Lafayette AvenueColumbus, IN 47201Phone: (812) 350-0707E-Mail: mulle...@aol.com
In a message dated 1/25/2021 11:53:41 AM US Eastern Standard Time, hlwin...@gmail.com writes:What am I missing here?
On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 7:59 AM 'Michael A Mullett' via SIREN Public Discussion Forum <fo...@sirensolar.org> wrote:
Gene, All -According to a telephone conversation which I had on Friday with Duke Renewables in North Carolina (to which I was referred by DEI Customer Service here in Indiana), this information should be available to you on your bill on a billing period basis -- assuming that you now have a digital "smart" meter rather than a conventional analog meter.The digital meter meter has dual registers, one for Inflow and the other for Outflow. Outflow measures the amount of energy your solar system exports to the grid, cumulatively. Neither the Inflow nor the Outflow register on the digital meter "goes backwards" the way that the single register, bi-directional analog meters did (and mine still does). So, both Inflow and Outflow data is definitely available to the Company for Net Metering customers who have digital "smart" meters. However, I have yet to hear first-hand from a Net Metering customer with a digital meter who has received a "new" bill from Duke to confirm what I was told about the information available to Net Metering customers on such a bill. (Personally, I am still waiting for my analog meter to be "changed out" for a digital meter -- which I was advised will happen sometime in 2021 and for which I should receive approximately two weeks notice. But, I was assured that I will receive a "new" bill for the same billing period during which my meter is "changed out.")Upon request, Duke will provide a print out of your accumulated credits at the end of a specified range of billing periods (an example of which was e-mailed to me at my request during my phone call on Friday).Duke is supposed to "reach out" to the solar advocates involved with the Indiana Sustainable Energy Forum (which includes several SIREN activists) prior to its March 1, 2020 Rate EDG Tariff filing to update us regarding its plans (including those for "grandfathered" Net Metering customers). I expect this subject will come up again today during the virtual DEI IRP Statekholder Engagement Meeting No. 2, starting at 10:00 a.m. and resuming at 1:00 p.m. -- although it is not clear whether we will learn today a set date for that promised update.To obtain your total solar output for your system during any billing period, you will need to rely on your own Solar Meter and Solar Monitoring System which you obtained through your solar installer.If you want to talk about your own account and obtain the print-out I referenced above, you may call Duke Renewables at 866-233-2290.Mike Mullett
Michael A. MullettBoard Member & Advocacy LeadSolarize Indiana, Inc.
In a message dated 1/24/2021 12:45:06 PM US Eastern Standard Time, edef...@gmail.com writes:
Hello all.
We've had our SolarEdge installation for a few months and are looking forward soon to the first month that we will actually produce enough excess energy to export. When that time comes, I would certainly like to know how much we are exporting. My understanding is that the net metering smart meter does not run backwards when you are exporting -- it just does not advance. And it won't advance again until the past earned credits are all used up.What I can't seem to figure out is (since the meter does not run backwards) where to find an accounting of the monthly credits we have earned and used.Does anyone know where to find that information?Thanks.-Gene
In a message dated 12/12/2020 3:53:28 PM US Eastern Standard Time, through fo...@sirensolar.org Mike Mullett writes:
I certainly do hope that everyone who received my initial e-mail from last week with its attachment also received my e-mail from yesterday with its attachment -- a letter from Duke's regulatory counsel here in Indiana, Kelley Karn, answering most of the questions which I posed in my initial e-mail based on our prior ISEF and SIREN list-serve communications and discussions. But, if not, hopefully you will receive and read this e-mail and its attachment.As much of a critic and skeptic as I have been of Duke over the years, I do believe that we should and can have a dialogue with Duke before that utility makes its EDG filing on March 1. Like Kerwin, I believe that Duke wants to adopt a different approach to EDG implementation than Vectren chose -- not the one that we would prefer if we had the choice, but one that would provide the opportunity for the Duke EDG and PURPA tariffs for small DG customers in 2021 to offer a "bridge" to the coming Distributed Energy Resources world of FERC Order 2222 -- at least if we engage effectively and advocate aggressively with the Company as we have done at various times in the past when there was sufficient "common ground" for worthwhile dialogue and creative compromise.So, please do review, comment and ask follow up questions based on Kelley's attached letter. Thanks!
Mike
Michael A. Mullett723 Lafayette AvenueColumbus, IN 47201Phone: (812) 350-0707E-Mail: mulle...@aol.com
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I'm sorry Larry but I'm not following you very well. Hopefully this is what you want to know. Your array sends current through your microinverters then to your Enphase inverter. Your Enphase inverter is connected to your home and to the Duke meter through which current passes on to the grid. If you put a slice of bread in your toaster it pulls current from your Enphase. If various loads in your home exceed the power available from your Enphase then it pulls current off of the grid, making your Duke usage meter spin. If your home does not pull all or any of your available solar current then that current goes out onto the grid. Your usage over a given period is the amount Enphase shows produced less the amount Dukes' meter indicates went to the grid, plus the amount the other Duke meter shows you pulled from the grid. Your savings is your solar usage at the retail rate you pay Duke for energy, plus the amount Duke pays for power you sent to the grid.
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DEL: This is the cumulative kilowatt-hours of electricity delivered from the grid since the meter was installed. It indicates energy delivered to you by DEI (aka "Inflow") as measured by an internal register which does not have a separate LCD display on the face of the meter;
REC: This is the cumulative kilowatt-hours of electricity you have sent to the grid since the meter was installed. It indicates energy produced by your solar energy system at times in excess of what was used in your home or business (aka "Outflow") as measured by a register which does not have a separate LCD display on the face of the meter; and
NET: This is the cumulative kilowatt-hours of electricity equal to the total amount delivered (aka "Inflow") minus the total amount received (aka "Outflow") since your meter was installed as computed by Duke. [I cannot be sure from what I see in your e-mail whether your LCD display can show both positive and negative numbers depending on whether your cumulative "Inflow" exceeds your cumulative "Outflow" or vice-versa. Looking at the graph in your bill, it would certainly appear that you have not had any billing period in the last year in which your "Outflow" exceeded your "Inflow" and your "Net" has been fairly consistent around an average of about 1200 kwh per billing period. Given the 3369 kwh shown in your e-mail, I would infer that your new "smart" meter was installed not quite three months ago.]
To determine your monthly usage, just like your old meter, you need to look at these numbers relative to your last meter reading, which should be shown on your bill [although I do not see it in what you included in your e-mail]. The numbers shown on the LCD display do not reset at each meter reading, but they tally up the cumulative electricity flows since the meter was installed.
Ben Inskeep | Principal Energy Policy Analyst
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nhe...@gmail.comNolan Hendon
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Mike (and everyone else who has responded earlier),
Thank you for the help you have provided me to better understand how the Duke smart meters work and, indeed, how my solar energy production benefits me overall.
Really glad to be a part of this forum!
Regards to all,
Larry
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Correct. The little bars in the red box in Michael’s pic below show whether you are using power off the grid, or putting power on the grid. If you are putting power on the grid and you came back and looked at the meter after an hour or so you will see a reading of something less than 53 kWhr.
The confusing thing to me comes in the Duke meter reading / billing. Let’s suppose the meter dude showed up at your house a month ago, read the meter, and it said 70 kWhr. Further assume for illustration that this is the highest value the meter has ever shown (they are showing cumulative power since Day 1). Now, dude shows up today and reads the meter, as below, at 53 kWhr.
When we get our Duke bill the mouth, the meter reading will show as 70 kWhr, not the 53 kWhr that the meter showed when it was read. So Duke subtracts 70 kWhr – 70 kWhr and says we used 0 kWhr for the month. There is no indication on the bill that we put a net 17 kWhr on the grid during the month. If you are interested in what your “credit” is, you have to keep track of it yourself.
So, the best ways I have found to keep track of how much power we used / supplied billing month to billing month is to read the meter at, or near the same time, as Duke, run a SolarEdge report on how much we generated during the month and do the math.
Maybe people have a Duke billing the behaves differently, I don’t know.
John B
On Feb 19, 2021, at 1:16 PM, John Bassett <jbas...@bluemarble.net> wrote:
Correct. The little bars in the red box in Michael’s pic below show whether you are using power off the grid, or putting power on the grid. If you are putting power on the grid and you came back and looked at the meter after an hour or so you will see a reading of something less than 53 kWhr.The confusing thing to me comes in the Duke meter reading / billing. Let’s suppose the meter dude showed up at your house a month ago, read the meter, and it said 70 kWhr. Further assume for illustration that this is the highest value the meter has ever shown (they are showing cumulative power since Day 1). Now, dude shows up today and reads the meter, as below, at 53 kWhr.When we get our Duke bill the mouth, the meter reading will show as 70 kWhr, not the 53 kWhr that the meter showed when it was read. So Duke subtracts 70 kWhr – 70 kWhr and says we used 0 kWhr for the month. There is no indication on the bill that we put a net 17 kWhr on the grid during the month. If you are interested in what your “credit” is, you have to keep track of it yourself.So, the best ways I have found to keep track of how much power we used / supplied billing month to billing month is to read the meter at, or near the same time, as Duke, run a SolarEdge report on how much we generated during the month and do the math.Maybe people have a Duke billing the behaves differently, I don’t know.John BFrom: Michael Regoli <reg...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2021 8:49 AM
To: Larry C <lar...@ccrtc.com>
Cc: Michael A Mullett <mulle...@aol.com>; kgfleming <kgfl...@att.net>; al...@wholesundesigns.com; arvin...@gmail.com; nhe...@gmail.com; edef...@gmail.com; hlwin...@gmail.com; fo...@sirensolar.org
Subject: Re: [SIREN Discussion Forum] Duke Energy Net Metering Bill - What am I missing here?This has been a great discussion! And to the comment that the Duke “smart meters” don’t indicate which direction the meter is “spinning,” that’s incorrect. If you notice the three squares in this photo, keep an eye on them when the meter is either delivering power from the grid or when the PV system is sending power to the grid. They will animate—traveling/blinking left to right when to power is coming in, or travel right to left when solar is feeding the grid. —michael
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