Octopus Energy new Outgoing / Export tariffs - FIT alternative?

[Mick Wall]

New Website Update - Octopus Outgoing / Export tariff historical and current data.

https://www.energy-stats.uk/

Discussion points and my notes/thoughts for Octopus Outgoing Export Tariffs

• Their fixed 5.5p per kWh fixed outgoing is a 2.2% increase over current Feed in Tariff (FIT) based 5.38p.
• These Outgoing tariffs only replace the ‘export’ element of the FIT. Your generation payments will still come from your registered FIT supplier.
• Both Fixed and Agile Outgoing are “actual” export rather than “deemed” 50% as per FIT.
• You are likely better to stay put on deemed 50% if your export more than 50% of what you generate. ie, if you have immersion diversion, EV or other high daytime usage.
• If you use less than 50% of want you generate the maths suggest you’d be better off on an ‘actual’ export tariff. The could well be the case with larger Solar installs.
• Octopus add credit to your bill each day for your exports. Assuming you spend more on “inbound” energy than you earn on “outbound” they’ll aim to set direct debits at a level consistent with the estimated annual net amount. If you’re in credit you can withdraw at will online. (From Octopus CEO)
• In comparison current FIT payments are usually every 3 months.
• You need to be on an Octopus import tariff to have one of their export tariffs.
• It will be very interesting to see the Agile Outgoing price through the winter months. The outgoing tariffs only started on 19th May 2019, so we have little historical data to analyse.
• Whilst its easy to claim 11p per unit and above between 4pm and 7pm during the summer because of late sunset times, its going to be impossible through the winter months with 4pm sunsets.
• Moving to Octopus requires a 12 month commitment for FIT payments. This is across the board, you can only move FIT supplier once a year.
• But this does not apply to ‘export’ supplier. You can move when you want. Plus, you can freely move between Fixed and Agile Outgoing / Export plans once with Octopus.
• So maybe there is opportunity to crunch the numbers to see if Fixed or Agile are better suited at different times of the year?
• Will the Octopus Fixed Outgoing tariff increase with inflation as per the current FIT rewards?
• The FAQ says there is nothing stopping you charging a battery using Solar during the day for free then selling back that energy between 4pm and 7pm for 11p+.

https://octopus.energy/outgoing/

https://octopus.energy/blog/outgoing/

Find all the Outgoing current/historical stats and pricing at https://www.energy-stats.uk/

If you have any ideas of what other data you’d like to see on the website please let me know.

Cheers, Mick

[Mick Wall]

Correction. I think I knew what I meant to say! :)

- You are likely better to stay put on deemed 50% if your export less than 50% of what you generate. ie, if you have immersion diversion, EV or other high daytime usage.

- If you export more than 50% of what you generate the maths suggest you'd be better off on an 'actual' export tariff. The could well be the case with larger Solar installs.

[Arden King]

I 

I'm not sure id  be better off I work hard not to export have diy power wall  plug in car etc 

[Mick Wall]

Personally, I have no EV, no immersion diversion or really big ticket day items and only use about 30% of what I generate.  So seems a no brainer for me to move over.

[Mick Wall]

Interesting update for those with older PV installations.

I asked Octopus the following:

"Another question about Outgoing tariffs. There are two FIT export tariffs dependant on install date.

April 2010 to 30 July 2012: 3.82p

On or after 1 August 2012: 5.38p

Can pre-July 2012 installs join Outgoing? Do they get 5.5p per kWh / Agile pricing?"

Their reply was:

"Ok, those are the FiT rates you’ve quoted there. Outgoing has just the two rates. You can switch to Outgoing (either 5.5 or Agile version) irrespective of which FiT rate you have. Hope that helps - but do drop us a DM / message if you have any questions & we can go through everything."

So maybe something to consider for those pre-2012 install owners?

[Ayrton Bourn]

The Octopus tariff is based off the day-ahead wholesale market price so whilst there isn't much historical data on the tariff we can inspect the market instead.

Here I've separated the average daily price profile by month and have also plotted the variation across a standard day with each colour band representing a quantile of 10%.

[Anwar Mahmood]

Thanks Ayrton!  Really useful!

An unknown is how this could change dynamically in the future. If everyone gets an EV, yet we know the grid doesn't have the capacity for that, and everyone charges overnight, the overnight tariff could become a peak price quite quickly and easily.

I welcome the EU mandating we can sell our electricity, but there's lots of factors at play.

Self-generation and self-consumption is the best way to reduce some of these variables.

Thoughts are welcome.

None of this detracts from Ayrton's really useful graphs!

Anwar

---

From: microgen-da...@sheffield.ac.uk <microgen-da...@sheffield.ac.uk> on behalf of Ayrton Bourn <ayrto...@outlook.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2019 10:16:56 AM
To: Microgen Database
Subject: [Microgen Database] Re: Octopus Energy new Outgoing / Export tariffs - FIT alternative?

 

The Octopus tariff is based off the day-ahead wholesale market price so whilst there isn't much historical data on the tariff we can inspect the market instead.

Here I've separated the average daily price profile by month and have also plotted the variation across a standard day with each colour band representing a quantile of 10%.

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[Ayrton Bourn]

No problem, glad to be of help.

Definitely, so many unknowns of which EVs will be a large factor. One of the other issues is price suppression due to renewables which will of course be correlated with domestic solar production.

As renewables displace power plants with more expensive operating costs they reduce the wholesale price, currently they reduce the summer price by about £8/MWh and winter by about £11MWh (although that's mostly through wind). We can expect this to increase as more renewables come onto the grid, time to get more storage!

[Anwar Mahmood]

Didn't realise [retail] electricity price rises were being limited by renewables! If that's the case, let's keep building wind turbines!

---

From: microgen-da...@sheffield.ac.uk <microgen-da...@sheffield.ac.uk> on behalf of Ayrton Bourn <ayrto...@outlook.com>

Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2019 10:45:07 AM
To: Microgen Database
Cc: ayrto...@outlook.com
Subject: Re: [Microgen Database] Re: Octopus Energy new Outgoing / Export tariffs - FIT alternative?

 

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[pnews99]

unfortunately flow  no longer exist and the  co op have  managed  it  since . although i  have  decided to  go  with octopus because if  i  upgrade to  a battery  system  later ,they  do a  variable tariff  to  sell the excess at  peak  times.

what  i  do not  understand is  octopus  is in  partner ship  with  the  co op.

i  have  been  told i must  change and yes i  been photocopying the  invoices and  certificates  today.  

On Wednesday, 19 June 2019 13:47:53 UTC+1, Mick Wall wrote:

[Mick MJ Wall]

There is loads of historical data on Agile.  

I've pulled together over two years of Agile daily data on my website. 

https://www.energy-stats.uk/octopus-agile/

I also tweet the daily Agile pricing via @energystatsuk

Hope this helps. 

Sent from my iPhone

On 20 Jun 2019, at 10:16, Ayrton Bourn <ayrto...@outlook.com> wrote:



The Octopus tariff is based off the day-ahead wholesale market price so whilst there isn't much historical data on the tariff we can inspect the market instead.

Here I've separated the average daily price profile by month and have also plotted the variation across a standard day with each colour band representing a quantile of 10%.

<daily_DAM_price_quantiles.png>

<daily_DAM_price_by_month.png>

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<daily_DAM_price_quantiles.png>

<daily_DAM_price_by_month.png>

[Ayrton Bourn]

As I understand it you can only get access to an Octopus API key as a customer which I am not. 

Thanks for compiling that data together though!

On Wednesday, 26 February 2020 08:27:19 UTC, Mick Wall wrote:

There is loads of historical data on Agile.  

I've pulled together over two years of Agile daily data on my website. 

https://www.energy-stats.uk/octopus-agile/

I also tweet the daily Agile pricing via @energystatsuk

Hope this helps. 

Sent from my iPhone

On 20 Jun 2019, at 10:16, Ayrton Bourn <ayrto...@outlook.com> wrote:



The Octopus tariff is based off the day-ahead wholesale market price so whilst there isn't much historical data on the tariff we can inspect the market instead.

Here I've separated the average daily price profile by month and have also plotted the variation across a standard day with each colour band representing a quantile of 10%.

<daily_DAM_price_quantiles.png>

<daily_DAM_price_by_month.png>

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[Beach comber]

Please don't be fooled into having a battery system and selling back to the grid. It is a complete con.

As an example a Powerwall 2 will cost you around £9,000 installed.

It has a 10 year, 37MWh warranted life, so you can you can put in and take out 3.7MWh each year, although it will decline to 80% of its capacity by year ten.

So at £9,000 and a usable 37,000 kWh it has cost you 9000/370000 = 24.32p per kWh installed and this is charging it for free from surplus generation and also assumes 100% efficiency.

Now you can buy from the grid for around 15p per kWh, using your Powerwall will cost you 24.32p instead off 15p, makes sense.

So year one that's 9.23p times your annual 3,700kWh's usage, so it will cost you £341 more than buying direct from the grid.

Year two kWh cost from grid rises to 16p, so using your battery only costs an extra £304.51.

Year three kWh cost from grid rises to 17p, so using your battery only costs an extra £267.51.

Year four kWh cost from grid rises to 18p, so using your battery only costs an extra £203.51.

Year five kWh cost from grid rises to 19p, so using your battery only costs an extra £193.51.

Year six kWh cost from grid rises to 20p, so using your battery only costs an extra £156.51.

Year seven kWh cost from grid rises to 21p, so using your battery only costs an extra £119.51.

Year eight kWh cost from grid rises to 22p, so using your battery only costs an extra £82.51.

Year nine kWh cost from grid rises to 23p, so using your battery only costs an extra £45.51.

Year ten kWh cost from grid rises to 24p, so using your battery now only costs an extra £8.51.

So over ten years your Powerwall 2 has cost £1,722.59 in more expensive electricity and £9,000 for the installation.

Hey, but don't worry you could have sold it back to the grid for 5.5p making a loss 24.23-5.5 = 18.73p on every kWh you sold.

Better still join all those other enlightened sole's charging their batteries at night on cheap Off-Peak rates of say 9p kWh, bringing there overall battery charge cost up to 33.23p kWh. Sell this back to grid later and make a fantastic 27.73p kWh loss.

And remember your 3.7MWh limit each year that's only 10kWh per day. Hell, why not charge that battery over night at a overall cost of £2.77 and sell it back to the grid next day for 55p. Winner.

[John Haynes]

Hi Beachcomber 

That’s a little harsh and takes no note of the carbon footprint reduction which is an important part of any solar or solar + storage installation. 

We’ve had solar since late 2011 and in October last year added a 4.5KWh Solax battery in conjunction with Social Energy. 

Cost was £3600 fully installed. 

Having only so far got statistics for the winter months and as we won’t be getting the required Smart Meter upgrade until next month, I can’t yet give meaningful analysis of any cost benefit. 

All I can say at the moment is that we have drawn over 200KWh from the battery since it’s installation which equates to over 1/10 of a ton of CO2. 

I don’t know about the financial side yet but the benefit to the planet has to be positive. 

John 

Sent from my iPhone

On 26 Feb 2020, at 18:27, Beach comber <ancientbe...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[pnews99]

yes  the tesla  is  one  of  the  most  expensive units  on the market  but  surly  the  main advantage  is  to maximise your  own  consumption,  a lot  of  the  time i am producing just  around 1 kw but  need 2  or  3 for  some  appliances , any  money  from  selling back at  peak  times would  just  be a  extra  bonus,

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[Beach comber]

Hi John, an interesting point about CO2.

However, I suspect manufacturing all this kit in China and transporting halfway round the planet probably kills any CO2 advantage.

I remember when I worked for National Grid it was always reckoned that no power station ever produced any power, certainly not more power than was used in its construction, running, maintenance, and decommissioning.

I have DIY battery storage system, but there is no financial benefit, so let us hope you are right about CO2.My battery has been charged with 2.12MWh of surplus solar and returned 1.93MWh.

But you have to wonder had you not let that power go back to the grid did an inefficient coal fired power somewhere have to make up the shortfall destroying your CO2 calculations?

Sorry for being harsh but I have heard so many people talk about getting 5p back when they spent 24p getting it into a battery and even worse charging their battery on Off-Peak, that it is just insane. I just want to scream don't do it. Get out your calculator out first.

P.S what did your system cost per kWh?

[John Haynes]

Hi John

Surely by someone else using my Solar generated 1KWh to boil their kettle is better than them using a 1KWh generated by burning a fossil fuel and releasing CO2 into the atmosphere?

And, if I'm paid a small amount for that unit of energy, that helps the economics of my investment.

John

On Wed, 26 Feb 2020 at 21:45, John Rose <johnric...@gmail.com> wrote:

>>I don’t know about the financial side yet but the benefit to the planet has to be positive. 

possibly doubtful science?

1kWhr stored in your battery and used later to boil your kettle is no planet-friendlier than exporting 1kWhr to the grid and boiling someone else's kettle

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[Andy Fletcher]

On 27/02/2020 10:13, John Haynes wrote:
> Hi John
>
> Surely by someone else using my Solar generated 1KWh to boil their
> kettle is better than them using a 1KWh generated by burning a fossil
> fuel and releasing CO2 into the atmosphere?
> And, if I'm paid a small amount for that unit of energy, that helps the
> economics of my investment.

Absolutely :)

However in most cases having a battery or not does not impact the
overall CO2 emissions of a PV installation or attached home. This is
because the net effect of exporting power and recovering it is
effectively zero, whatever you leave behind in the grid is an overall
reduction over the state in which you did nothing.

Unfortunately if you consider time of production and use. You generally
displace CO2 at a higher rate per KWH in the daytime and consume it at a
lower rate during the night.

So if you are using your battery to provide power at night from what you
produced during the day then you are increasing the impact on CO2 rather
than reducing it. The optimal case would be to export as much power as
possible when CO2 is highest in the grid and recharge your battery in
the middle of the night. However this would cost you a lot of money as
the import/export rates are very different. It would also hammer your
battery and reduce it's operational life.

Standalone batteries should be considered for grid connected homes only
where there are concerns about supply reliability or they are being used
to provide grid services (FCAS, distributed storage etc.). Other
installations do nothing for global CO2 and are expensive.

Off grid is a different situation as the batteries provide an essential
service in what is essentially a zero carbon system.

All this ignores CO2 embodied in the battery system which should be
pro-rated on a per-KWH basis over the lifetime of the battery.

Hope I haven't screwed things up too much :)

Andy



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- what CO2 legacy are you going to leave? Use renewables.

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Freenode:andyfletcher

[John Haynes]

Hi again Beachcomber

Yes, I would openly admit that I haven't taken into account any energy  or environmental impact of the production and transport of the battery and associated equipment. To do so would be virtually impossible so as long as it is acknowledged but universally ignored when making comparisons, then this is an inaccuracy we have to tolerate.

As of this moment in time, Coal fired power stations are only contributing 1.54% of overall demand and historically, they are well below 5% over the last year.

Just today, it has been announced that Drax will end coal usage by the end of 2021 and I believe the National target for all coal powered generation to end is 2025.

You ask my system cost per KWh. The overall cost was £3,600, it has an advised cycle life of 6000 so a total of  24,300 KWh assuming a 90% efficiency (yours is 91%).

This gives a unit cost of 14.8p per KWh. We are currently paying 14.9p per KWh to Social Energy (including Standing Charge) for energy drawn from the grid so because our Solar investment has now been repaid, that would seem to Nett out at a saving of .01p per KWh.

Not alot, I know but energy prices will rise during the guaranteed 15 year life of the battery so the savings will increase with time. Incidentally, I do acknowledge that by keeping my £3600 in a savings account at 1.5% p.a., for 15 years, I could have earned £810 interest.

That's not the total picture though. According to https://blueskymodel.org/kilowatt-hour there is 1.13 lb of CO2 produced per KWh generated in the UK so my lifetime generation of 24,300 KWh saves over 12 tons of CO2 going into the atmosphere.

Individually, that's not a large amount but if enough like minded individuals were to do likewise, then the cumulative effect could be significant.

Thanks for your input,

John

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[John Haynes]

Hi Andy

A little while ago, it was suggested that this forum was dying. Judging by the reaction to Beachcomber's original post a couple of days ago and the following exchanges of facts and opinions, this is far from true !

Keep up the good work everyone.

Could you expand on the following please?

"Unfortunately if you consider time of production and use. You generally

displace CO2 at a higher rate per KWH in the daytime and consume it at a
lower rate during the night."

I'm struggling to understand the logic and science behind this statement.

Many thanks,

John

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[Andy Fletcher]

On 27/02/2020 11:30, John Haynes wrote:
> Hi Andy
>
> A little while ago, it was suggested that this forum was dying. Judging
> by the reaction to Beachcomber's original post a couple of days ago and
> the following exchanges of facts and opinions, this is far from true !
> Keep up the good work everyone.
>
> Could you expand on the following please?
>
> "Unfortunately if you consider time of production and use. You generally
> displace CO2 at a higher rate per KWH in the daytime and consume it at a
> lower rate during the night."
>
> I'm struggling to understand the logic and science behind this statement.

Sorry, I worded it very badly.

Carbon intensity of the UK grid changes over the day. You can see this
on the Electric Insights or Carbon intensity websites.

https://electricinsights.co.uk

https://carbonintensity.org.uk/

I attach a screenshot of the CO2 intensity over a 48 hour period from
the latter link.

The point that I was (poorly) trying to make is that the grid CO2
intensity is higher in the day than at night. Therefore you get a higher
CO2 benefit exporting all the power you can during the day (like when
you don't have a battery) and importing what you need at night.

If you use power from your battery at night then you are displacing
power ftom the grid at a low CO2 intensity when you could have exported
it during the day and taken it back at night when it has a lower CO2
intensity.

Looking at the chart for today, It looks like daytime will be lower than
night! The forecast for tomorrow (2020-02-28) is more like what I would
expect)

Example: 2020-02-28

Daytime intensity: 228g/kwh

Nightime intensity: 127g/kwh

Power used during night: 10kwh

CO2 in power in day = 10*228 = 2.28 Kg
CO2 in power at night = 10*127 = 1.27 Kg

Export 10kwh day then use 10kwh at night saves 2.28-1.27 = 1.01kg CO2

[John Haynes]

Hi Andy

Sorry, but I don't buy that as a sound scientific argument. CO2 levels obviously do vary over a 24 hour period but as per https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2011/apr/28/industries-sectors-carbon-emissions,

less than a quarter of overall CO2 is from electricity production AND heating. I wasn't able to find a figure just for electricity production but looking at the National Grid production website, again as a snapshot, only 47% of the current generation is from CO2 emitting processes (Coal, Gas and Biomass) and 48% is from Nuclear, Solar and Wind.

The variation in intensity Day vs. Night is much more likely to be because of Transport, Industrial activity and domestic heating (Gas Boilers) than from Electricity generation.

John

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[Andy Fletcher]

On 27/02/2020 12:34, John Haynes wrote:
> Hi Andy
>

> Sorry, but I don't buy that as a sound scientific argument. CO2 levels
> obviously do vary over a 24 hour period but as
> per https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2011/apr/28/industries-sectors-carbon-emissions,
> less than a quarter of overall CO2 is from electricity production AND
> heating. I wasn't able to find a figure just for electricity production
> but looking at the National Grid production website, again as a
> snapshot, only 47% of the current generation is from CO2 emitting
> processes (Coal, Gas and Biomass) and 48% is from Nuclear, Solar and Wind.
> The variation in intensity Day vs. Night is much more likely to be
> because of Transport, Industrial activity and domestic heating (Gas
> Boilers) than from Electricity generation.
>

I think you are right. The essential question is what is compensating
for my import or export at any point in time.

Nuclear and renewables generally operate on a "must take" basis so the
grid will use them whenever they are available. I think biomass (mostly
Drax) probably runs close to a "must take" basis. The fact I have an
energy flow doesn't impact their production in any meaningful way.

The difference between the sources above and the grid total is
essentially made up by coal and gas. Pumped hydro messes around with the
instantaneous energy flows but, on average, has no impact.

So if people export power to the grid then this will generally cause a
reduction in gas generation and this will be the case all day round
regardless of the actual time. On this basis then the time aspect of
imports and exports is irrelevant. Of course, one domestic system is
irrelevant but a million homes would make a substantial impact. All this
assumes that there is no curtailment for renewables going on - when that
is happening you should defer exports if possible.

This does raise an interesting point - if I export 1KWH to the grid, how
much CO2 does it reduce things by?

I guess what we need to consider is what would compensate for my 1KWH.
If it is CCGT (gas) then we are looking at something like 0.45 kg. If it
is coal then it will be nearer 0.80 kg.

This applies equally on what power consumption I displace over the year
by my solar system - I should look at what would compensate for my
system. This means a 4KW PV installation with about 3500KWh/year would
reduce UK CO2 by about 1600kg/year.

I hope nobody minds this thread as I try to think this through and hope
it is an interesting process to follow, or at least not too annoying.

Thanks to John for correcting my loose thinking, hopefully I am getting
closer to a proper understanding of things.

[John Haynes]

Hi again Andy

This has been an interesting exchange of ideas, theories and facts which I too have found very thought provoking.

One thing that is very clear to me is that Climate Change needs to be addressed. NOW.

If I can play a very small part in doing that for the benefit of my children and grandchildren, then whatever I spend has to be worth it.

I would rather they inherit a better quality planet than just a few quid.

Thanks all

John

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[Aldous]

I have only been skim reading this thread, so apologies if you've already got this information, but Electric Insights from Drax shows the carbon intensity of energy production over time.

Hover over the red line on the central graph to see the carbon intensity of electricity for the given time. 

https://electricinsights.co.uk/#/dashboard?_k=i68bok

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[Beach comber]

Wow!, guys what did I do.

Listening to the debate it would seem that the best system should have a battery that was charged overnight using surplus wind or hydro power, so that heaver loads during the day would be covered by the additional solar input. In this way more power would go back into the grid offsetting CO2 and reducing your own footprint to an absolute minimum.

I remember after 911 and the more recent volcano dust eruptions in Iceland how all the sky's cleared of cloud caused by aircraft condensation trails. Sky's under which solar generation would have rocketed.

So, here's the thing I live under the Gatwick flight path and if we could engineer a strike of all British Airways staff for just a couple of days we could reduce CO2 emissions by hundreds of tons. Now that would be a legacy to leave your grandchildren.

London – NYC 986Kg

London – Perth 3,153Kg

Need I say more. BeachComber.

P.S. Beach-combing is CO2 free.  

[Deborah Foldys]

Hi how do you work out that saves carbon- the electricity you are storing would have been zero carbon power for someone else when you exported it  , that is a zero saving in carbon for the planet  Geof

On Wednesday, 26 February 2020 19:02:37 UTC, John Haynes wrote:

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[andy fletcher]

I think carbon savings should be based on the generation sources which are being displaced at the time you export power to the grid.

This is generally gas (CCGT) at about 450g/kwh.

There are a few times when there is too much power on the grid and curtailment of renewable sources is happening. When this happens then it makes sense to defer exports to a time when you can displace CCGT rather than other renewables.

Otherwise I would say that a battery has no effect on carbon emissions.

Andy

PS) corrections welcome

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[andy fletcher]

If you consider displaced generation sources then it means that you should probably use their carbon intensity when working out the carbon emission savings of having local renewable generation rather than the overall grid  intensity.

That means a 4kw PV system producing 3600kwh/year will save about 1.6 tons of CO2 per year.

It all depends on how you calculate things :)

Andy

- Wannabe "level 5" energy geek :)

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[John Rush]

Wow. Interesting discussion. The installation we have has been designed to get us as close as possible to net zero. The financial side is interesting. A 10kw system before we had storage would mean we used 35% of the power generated over the year. With 14kwh of pylontech plus lux storage we are closer to 65% of generated power used. In effect almost net zero between April and September. We still import the odd kWh due to switching time for reacting to load.

From a cost side the calculations are interesting. Including hardware and fitting we spent about 20k on the whole system. We get the fit payment of 650 a year. The amount paid for import of gas and electric this year will be around 800. In effect that means a usual energy bill of around 1500 a year has been cut from 900 to 250 by installing the batteries (I am using the fit payment to offset the cost).

The calculations get worse, we run a phev. Over 70% of the miles are electric and around 70% of those are from solar. It means we have cut the fuel bill on the car from around 1500 (cost for a diesel) to around 480 in petrol a year plus added little impact to electricity bills.

You add this up and we get an offset saving of 1670 a year of money not leaving the house hold. This means the pay back time is still in the 10 to 12 year frame but does not take into account the savings on less tax paid on utilities. Any electricity that is self used is not taxed nor is any fuel saved in the car.

My final point is power loss for th grid. According to this https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Grid_(Great_Britain) around 7.7% of power produced is lost completely. When you consider that by micro generation that loss is reduced to near zero, you find a further benefit .

20k of cash at current rates does not yield much, interest rates are near as can be said zero. The stock market is not great and dividends are not always paid. As far as long term investment and cost off set is concerned, the system we have is doing well. Just wish could store all the generation.

I know we have a larger system and this makes the net zero easier.

We live in interesting times at the moment and the economic outlook is not great at the moment. All we can do is use the resources we have to our best ability. Stay safe.

Some stats on the installation.

https://www.pvoutput.org/statistic.jsp?id=75790&sid=67190