LiveLox Proposal Thoughts

[Faye Doria]

It's taken me a while to pull them together, but I would like to express my thoughts on the proposed LiveLox subscription idea.

 

The proposal is for OUSA to fund a 12 month national LiveLox subscription in 2024 for all OUSA clubs and schools at a price of $3.00 per OUSA member (1,417 members) totaling $4,251.

 

I would like to break out how this might affect the various groups concerned.

 

OUSA Members –

 

The first group to consider are OUSA members (individual, family, students, juniors).  All have always been able to download and use LiveLox for free.  Free features in LiveLox are:

·       Create events

·       Upload routes

·       Route Provider Integration

·       Replay a Single Route

·       View a single route leg-by-leg

·       View duel comparison for the longest leg

·       View split times

·       In use Ads – described by users as “mildly annoying”

 

A paid Premium Subscription (currently $54 a year) allows an ad-free experience.  In addition, a few new features would be added:

·       Replay multiple routes simultaneously

·       View multiple routes simultaneously leg-by-leg

·       View duel comparison for any leg

 

If OUSA pays for a national subscription, all OUSA members would be upgraded to a Premium Subscription.  I’m sure some small number of OUSA members might find these additional features to be useful and use them regularly.  But I’m not sure that paying for all OUSA members to have them available is the best use of OUSA dollars.

 

I’m also wondering how we will measure success.  I’m suggesting that if 25% of the OUSA membership uses LiveLox for at least 3 events each in the first calendar year, that might be success.  We should expect to have 40% of the OUSA membership using it for at least 5 events each by the second calendar year.  It would still not be a benefit to the other 60% of our members.

 

I expect that each of our OUSA members will be provided with an individualized code to use for their LiveLox registration.  That code will be good through whatever is the end date, when they will be provided with a new one.  LiveLox should be able to provide statistics on the number that actually

 

LiveLox should be able to provide statistics on the number that actually download LiveLox, how many routes they upload, and how various features are used.  If not, how will we measure success?

 

OUSA Affiliated Clubs –

 

There are currently 3 clubs who have seen enough value to pay for subscriptions to LiveLox.  That means that the other 65 clubs have not seen the value, although some say they use it.

 

It seems to me that the primary reason to have a club membership is that the club can upload maps and courses and results.  Of course, any participant can upload their own map and course for free.  But it does take some mapping skill to be able to do that, which all participants may not have.

 

Some of the clubs with current subscriptions see value in the live features, which require internet service at the meet site.  That internet service may not be available in many areas where clubs hold events – which tend to be in more remote areas.  And the ones using live features tend to have many JROTC participants. 

 

Clubs can easily recoup the cost of a $318 club subscription by adding a modest amount to membership and/or start fees.  If users value the live features, paying another $0.50 or $1.00 per start or membership seems like a small amount.  If the organizers see the value of live features, then they can set club pricing accordingly and advertise the fact to draw participants.

 

I can see the value in OUSA holding a club subscription that it uses for all Championship Events in the US.  But that cost would only be $318, not the $4,251 we are currently considering.

 

How would we measure success at the club level?  With only 3 clubs paying for a subscription, we have less than 5% using it.  I think we should have 40% of the clubs (27 clubs) uploading at least 50% of their events to LiveLox by the end of the first calendar year.  By the second year, we should have 65% of the clubs (45 clubs) upload at least 50% of their events to LiveLox.

 

Clubs should also be provided with an individualized code for their use for the calendar year.  That should start February 28, when club renewal fees are due, and go through the following February 28.

 

Non-OUSA Members -

 

Certainly, everyone who is not a member of OUSA can create a free LiveLox account and use all of the free features with the mildly annoying ads.  If they want the additional features, they can pay to join OUSA for $35 a year, which is less than the $54 cost for an individual LiveLox Premium Subscription.

 

I’m not sure how we propose to treat those who are members of an OUSA affiliated orienteering club, but not a member of OUSA.  Personally, I think they should join OUSA to receive the full benefits of the LiveLox subscription. 

 

If non-OUSA members are allowed to participate in the Premium Subscription because they are club members, I see that as a problem.  I don’t know if that is the case with club memberships, so it needs more discussion.

 

Schools –

 

I don’t understand how or why we might include schools in this proposal.  This needs more discussion and explanation.

 

Which schools are we talking about? 

How does a school get on the list?

What are the mechanics of that school getting registered?

Is the school treated like a club?

Are the students treated as OUSA members?

Since schools don’t pay based on starts or members, why would they receive this benefit for free?

 

This seems like a very complicated part of the proposal and I think schools should not be included without clear answers to these questions.

 

Implementation –

 

Since very few clubs have had any experience with LiveLox, I think it is premature to expect to roll this out by January 1, 2024.  Yes, there have been a few early adopter individuals and clubs who have taken advantage of the few weeks of “free” access.  But that hardly means every club has found someone willing to take on the tasks required.  Many clubs don’t have events this time of year, so haven’t had any reason to look at LiveLox.

 

The Board discussed having more complete documentation, as well as live human beings who can answer specific questions to help clubs get going.  I have not heard about how those tasks are moving forward. 

 

I still have questions that need to be answered before I might be willing to vote to spend the money.  I have not heard any clamor from clubs or individuals to implement this proposal.  The proposal came from one club that already sees the value in paying for LiveLox.  That club certainly would benefit if the cost were shifted to OUSA.  But I’m not sure the OUSA community benefits by spending money on LiveLox instead of something else.

 

As far as I know, we have not recently asked clubs and/or individual members if there are other projects they would like OUSA to take on.  We may want to ask before we commit to this expenditure.

 

I think the earliest this might start is March 1, 2024 when we will know which clubs have rechartered for 2024.  That will give the Board time to be sure that it has a support system in place for clubs with no experience with LiveLox, as well as be sure the registration process is in place.

 

Future Years –

 

LiveLox says it charges National Federations based on the number of active orienteers and routes uploaded to Livelox.  In dollar amounts, what does it charge other National Federations who have been with them longer?

 

If the price goes up in the future, do we expect clubs to pay to opt into the LiveLox subscription?

 

If the price goes up in the future, might we raise dues on individual members?

 

If we don’t meet the goals we define as “success”, will we drop the subscription?  Will we try instead to renegotiate the terms?

 

Conclusion –

 

I’m not sure that the price of a national subscription gives the majority of our members new tools they are actually going to use.  Are lots of people going to spend a lot of time comparing multiple routes or legs simultaneously?  That’s really the only feature that gets added beyond the free subscription.

I’m not sure whether enough new clubs will upload their maps and courses routinely going forward. That will be key to my decision whether to continue.

 

Overall, I continue to be skeptical that this is a good value for OUSA.  Most of the features in LiveLox are available for free.  Similar features are available in RouteGadget for free.  I have yet to be convinced of the value of paying $4,251 for the few additional features.

I'm interested in hearing from those who haven't expressed an opinion yet.

Thanks,

Faye Doria

[Cristina Luis]

Hang on, question from the peanut gallery here. The last thing I remember seeing from the Livelox proposal folks is that the "national subscription" would apply to every event hosted in the US, not to individual users. Just like what we have now as a free trial: a blanket subscription access for anyone viewing any routes for any event in the US. If that is the case then the analysis of the benefits is quite different from what has been laid out here. 

If that is not the case, I'm sure someone will pipe up and correct me very quickly. :) 

Cristina

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[Alec Richardson]

Cristina, what I found online matches your impression.

The Livelox page about National Federation subscriptions says that " all ... Livelox features will then be available for all events in the country, without requiring users to purchase individual subscriptions."  This means to me that the full features of Livelox would be available to anyone when viewing an event which took place in the US.  It would not matter what memberships the person has or whether the organization which put on the event is associated with OUSA.
https://www.livelox.com/Documentation/NationalFederations

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[Alec Richardson]

I am removing BoardNet from this email since it seems to be restricted to board members and gave me an error after my last email. 

I would also like to give my perspective as the President of a small club, Central Va Orienteering Club (CVOC), who can feel overburdened with tasks related to running the club as it has very few volunteers.  

I am also generally a frugal person.  I had not heard of Livelox before the ClubNet emails about it.  My first impression about paying for a subscription was the same as Faye's, most of the features of LiveLox are included for free, why pay for it, but using it for two events now has changed my perspective.  I don't know if OUSA should be paying for the national subscription at that high cost, but I definitely see the value in it as a participant, and it was easy enough for me to set up an event in Livelox.  

We have only had a small number of participants upload tracks and have only talked to a small subset of them about it, but the few we have talked to about it have found it really neat and helpful comparing the routes of all participants at once.  Most participants out our meets are casual and not competitive orienteers, and we have only done it for two events.  Those are two factors towards why we have not had more participation.

One caveat to note in terms of the ease of setting up events, is that I do work in IT.  Those who are less proficient with computers may not find it as easy.  

For our first event using it, the course setting files were in OCAD.  I was able to link OCAD to my Livelox account so from my course setting file, I was able to upload the courses and map from OCAD.  It prompted me if this was a new event or existing one.  After filling out the event info and uploading the map, all courses and classes were created automatically.  Note that when I did not have classes defined in OCAD, I had to create them manually in Livelox.

This was all easy to do with the instructions available on the Livelox site.  They say Condes has the same functionality.

  

Now for our second event, the course setting files were in Purple Pen.  This was a little more complicated.  

I first had to create the event in Livelox.

Next I exported from OCAD and uploaded to Livelox my georeferenced base maps.  

Then for my courses, I first tried uploading my purple pen file which they say you can do, but I got an error, I believe about my map not being georeferenced.  

I then exported my courses as IOF XML and uploaded that file which worked to create my courses.  I did not have any classes defined in Purple Pen, but in Livelox when I uploaded the XML file, it prompted me whether I wanted to create classes to match my courses.

My event was then all ready for participants to upload their tracks after the event.

In conclusion, I am not sure if I think OUSA should pay for a national subscription or not.  As Faye said, there are a lot of things that OCAD could spend that money on.  I do though feel that a lot of clubs would use it and that a lot of participants would find the full features useful. 

- Alec

[Blaik Mathews]

If the goal is to make me regret ever proposing we look into a national license, mission accomplished.  But before I pull out the Homer Simpson vanishing into the hedge GIF, I feel compelled to respond to the above:

My whole raft of reasons for championing Livelox over its alternatives, and of aiming to license it at the org level (either club or national) can all be summed up in one word: SIMPLICITY.  We already knew from experience that if individual users had to pay to license, buy dedicated equipment, learn specialized technology, or indeed expend much effort at all, then only a tiny handful of people would ever use it.  The whole point was to remove the barriers to entry, make it as simple as possible, and mainstream it.  Leveraging existing smartphone equipment and infrastructure, coupled with a simple-to-use app that takes all the technical burden of recording/uploading/overlaying off the end user, removes the barriers to entry.  Collective licensing removes the complexity of hundreds of people paying for and maintaining individual subscriptions.  Club and national licenses open access to *events*, not users.  When FLO/SOAR got our club licenses, every track and every event in the state of Florida was opened up to "premium feature" use (with the exception of the new "Duel" feature).  The national license would do the same at the national level.  No license keys or access codes for individuals, schools, groups, or clubs - just everything opened to everybody in one swift stroke.  If it were not that way, I would never have proposed we consider it.

Also, for the record, FLO and SOAR were never looking to "shift our costs to OUSA" by making this proposal.  FFS, we just spent $1,500 out of pocket over the summer to fund the development of new live-tracking features within the Livelox product, and then gave those features away to the rest of the O world.  We were already committed to club subscriptions going forward because we love the product and get tremendous value from it at our events.  My thinking in making the national license proposal was that if there were other US clubs doing the same, then maybe by pooling our club subscription fees plus a bit more, we might extend the benefits to the whole country, even if it took some time to ramp up the adoption.

As for adoption rates: If you are with a club that has only ever used RouteGadget or other products, you owe it to yourself to see how easy Livelox is to set up and use, both for the club admins and end users.  We used RouteGadget 2 for a couple of years before I found out about Livelox, and never got more than a tiny handful of die-hard users who were willing to buy the equipment and learn how to use it.  If that's what you've seen, I'm sure it sounds like a poor choice to spend $$$ on licensing a product that you think nobody will use.  But FLO and SOAR have done the hard work of figuring out procedures, equipment, and best practices to get people to adopt en masse.  At our last 2 major events, we had almost 2/3 of our runners recording tracks and transmitting live telemetry for us to monitor and spectate on.  (See our entire Nov 18 Gold Head Branch event played back in 2 minutes here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OD1B572E3L4).  At our training camp at Camp Blanding in September we had nearly 100% usage to comply with base safety mandates.  That's a huge advantage in operational risk management and a tremendous training resource after the fact.  With Livelox, your club can do this too.

All that said, Faye is very correct that almost all the benefits above can be had for free under current pricing plans. The primary beneficiaries of the premium features are serious orienteers who want the full raft of features for studying their tracks, and coaches/instructors who can use multi-track playback for compelling classroom visuals and training.  The way things are currently set up, the cost of those features is kind of high for the number of people we would likely have using them.  Thinking that OUSA has better things to spend its limited resources on may be the right call - not my decision.  But I certainly don't feel that way about our club subscriptions!  With so much of our user base participating, we get more than enough value to justify $318/year.  Sure, we could freeload and get most of that benefit for nothing, but we want smart people maintaining this system and adding new features to it going forward, so I see contributing to make that happen as an investment in our clubs' future.

If you want to learn more about what Livelox has to offer, attend the December Forum call this Thursday the 14th at 7:30 PM.  I'll be doing a show & tell of some of the features, a demo of how to set up an event as a club admin, and answering questions.  We'll have limited time so it will be rather summary, but if there is interest I would be happy to do a dedicated Livelox training where I can talk about how to administer and use the system in more detail.  This includes how to pull in the internet Faye alluded to which allows you to take maximum advantage of the live tracking while the event is running.  I've been tinkering with cellular internet toys for 8 years and have some expertise from lessons learned in that realm too.

If you want a more detailed look-see with some hands on, I invite you to consider coming to our "Orienteering Trifecta" weekend Jan 12,13,& 14 in the Tampa/St Pete area.  We're doing 3 independent events in 3 days at 3 different venues: one beachside, one upland forest, and one urban.  All will use Livelox, and I'll show you firsthand how everything works (and maybe press you into service as a volunteer live-monitoring the system so you can get a real feel for what it can do).  For details, see our club web site event calendars:

www.floridaorienteering.org

www.suncoastorienteering.com

Blaik Mathews

President, Florida Orienteering

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[GUY OLSEN]

1)  A useful (IMO) quality / feature of RouteGadget is being able to view a map / course, regardless of whether anyone has uploaded routes.  Is anything similar available in LiveLox?

2)  Any chance of getting TLDRs for these lengthy, but no-doubt highly informative, posts?

Guy O

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[Jens Christiansen]

1) Yes, example given.  Whole course or leg by leg, as suits your preference.  And in leg mode they are event oriented correctly.

https://www.livelox.com/Viewer/2023-SMOC-Fall-Huron-Meadows/Yellow?classId=677215&tab=player

[vido al]

Hi,

I read some of the comments here about Livelox. Honestly, I never used it and I didn't have time to try it but I watched all the videos under "View and analyse routes" on livelox.com.

From what I saw, it looks like it has similar functionality to the free RouteGadget. I guess it has a live mobile app tracking that RouteGadget doesn't. But most of us are not using our phones. We use GPS watches instead and upload the tracks later.

The leg/course analysis looks much more advanced and Livelox has leg section comparison (Duel Analysis), but I'm not sure that even 3% of the 1,417 OUSA members will ever use these features. The advanced course and leg analysis is for Elite runners. They are the athletes that may need to analyse where someone lost 10 or 15 seconds. For someone like me, losing minutes, RouteGadget and AttachPoint are sufficient.

$4251 is not a lot of money these days but I'm not convinced that spending them on junior training/camps/coaching is not a better option.

BTW: As an EventReg administrator I plan to integrate RouteGadget to the EventReg system at some point so the event organizer can upload maps/courses/splits/results and participants can upload tracks.

Videlin

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[Dylan Poe]

To hopefully clarify the subscription model:

Originally, the national subscription would apply to any event in the United States, so any event uploaded  would have all features unlocked. 

There were concerns about OUSA paying for a subscription that non-OUSA groups could use. So LiveLox, understanding the concern, agreed to restrict the national subscription to just OUSA clubs given that LiveLox would be provided a list of clubs by an agreed upon date if OUSA did decide to purchase a subscription. And in doing so, cut the cost of the subscription for OUSA by almost half, to the current offer of $4,251.

No matter the case, there will be no codes or keys needed, and I'm not sure where that idea came from.

Dylan

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[Michael Avery]

A couple of comments from a member of one of the clubs who have been actively using Livelox since 2020, and an OUSA member...

First, the comments that I've seen from board members include a lot of misconceptions about the product and how the proposal, if it passes, will be implemented.  It seems that there is not one shared understanding of what they will be voting on.  Livelox should be presenting a written proposal stating what they are providing (and how it differs from other subscription options that are available to folks in the US), for how long it will be good for, how the pricing is determined and what will be the criteria for renegotiation at the expiration of the current subscription.

Second, OUSA should be getting something out of the deal.  How about double the membership – 1,417 to 2,800?  $35,000 to $70,000 in membership dues?  Pretty good return on a $6,000 bet.  Surely there are 1,400 orienteers across the entire country who are not currently members of OUSA who would join to get Livelox Unlimited as part of their membership for less than the cost of a personal Livelox subscription.  Have faith in the growth that has actually been demonstrated at clubs that have been actively using Livelox.   I believe “…they will come.”  Perhaps the first year this is for all orienteers participating in a US event (as I believe is currently proposed), to build awareness and buy-in, but in 2025 it becomes OUSA members only.  Livelox would need to be agreeable to upload a file of OUSA members to do this.

Mike Avery

NEOOC

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[Joseph Huberman]

I think the real benefit of Livelox is that comparing routes after the fact is very EASY,  informative and FUN for beginners as well as experts, and will increase enthusiasm at local club events.  If the club can show real time tracking the enthusiasm will increase exponentially.

Livelox will be a valuable service that OUSA offers to the clubs that will be visible to the participants, unlike the insurance, which while crucial for the clubs, is invisible to the participant.

When BOK began in 1977 with black & white maps we had a small group of regulars.  There was a huge increase in enthusiasm and participation when we got our first color maps.  Then, when we got SI equipment there was another big boost.  I think that making route comparison super easy for the casual orienteer will create another boost in enthusiasm for the beginner and casual orienteer.  We may also see an increase in returns of first timers as we did with the previous improvements.

In order for this boost to occur, particularly for beginners and casual orienteers, the barrier to entry needs to be very low - just as it was when we provided color maps or rental SI-cards to participants.  There has been some uptake by a few clubs during our trial period without a comprehensive educational campaign, and the response from those clubs has been positive.  I think many more clubs will use the service when word spreads about how fun and easy it is to implement.

Be sure to attend the Thursday, Dec 14 O-Forum at 8:30 Eastern (tomorrow) to see the presentation and get your questions answered.

Fay's comment on evaluating the use after the first year is well taken and should occur before the subscription is renewed.

Joseph

===========================

Joseph Huberman

OUSA BOD, VP Club Services

m. 919-610-1788

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[Clinton Morse]

A couple comments:

1) re: Vidos point on phone vs GPS watch - an extremely useful feature of livelox is that it automatically syncs tracks from Garmin Connect, Strava or whatever service you use (once registered).  NEOC has Livelox and when I run one of their events, my tracks just show up without any action on my part.  So even if I don't go and look at Livelox, others benefit from my track being there without any intervention on my part.  I don't have to remember to upload my track. The more tracks in the system, the more useful the analysis. 

2) I think integration with EventReg is a great idea.  However, I think the analysis toolset in Livelox is superior.

3) From a media perspective, Livelox just renders a much better image, so being able to take a screen grab of a particularly interesting leg would be hugely useful for putting out media and teaching purposes.  I don't currently do this with RG because, frankly, the images aren't that great.  With LL, the resulting map with tracks overlaid actually looks like the map you had in your hand, not a poor man's reproduction.

4) The ability to use your phone and LL app opens access to newcomers to the sport and helps them improve their technique.  Being able to see where and why they made a mistake will likely induce newcomers to come back and try again, thus reinforcing retention of newcomers and integrating them with those who have been orienteering for years.

In my opinion, having used both as an end user - the auto-sync from gps watch and higher quality output both strongly favor Livelox over Routegadget.  The live tracking features are an added bonus for event administrators.

On Tue, Dec 12, 2023, 11:44 PM vido al <videlin....@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Blaik Mathews]

I agree with all of the above, Joe.  In particular, the new all-participant Live Tracking view that FLO/SOAR had built over the summer is a real crowd-pleaser when displayed on the big screen at an event.  People crowd around and chatter about it.  It motivates individuals to start using Livelox, and makes JROTC/group coaches more likely to encourage their kids to use it.  As a side benefit, it lowers the safety fears of any risk-averse park officials who happen by.  Having that kind of intel on our runners displayed in real time gives them a compelling sense that "these guys really know what they're doing", which makes them more comfortable hosting events in the future.

I'll demo this capability at the Dec Forum call Thurs evening, which Joe has reminded me is 8:30 PM, not 7:30 as I said previously.  Use the link in his email above to join.

-- Blaik

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[Gord Hunter]

First a bit of personal history:

For six months of the year orienteering in Florida I never fail to enter my routes on Livelox

For six months of the year orienteering in Canada I never fail to enter my routes on Route Gadget

Before they came along I almost never failed to input my route to Quick Route

But before that and still to this day I never miss manually drawing my route on my competition map and filing that map in a red three-ring binder, one binder per year.

In the early days, before the filing happened I and other orienteers would sit around after the race, have a picnic, a drink and huddle over our maps discussing our route choices.

Regretfully that does not seem to happen today.

But to the point: What about Livelox?  As far as studying my own route and those of others Livelox or Route Gadget? It's a tossup. Except for one huge feature in Livelox. As has been pointed out by others Livelox gives us teachers/ coaches a chance for leg by leg comparison of routes. The better coaches of Florida's better teams are doing that after every event. And getting their students to verbalize their choices. Those of us who played football will know how valuable those game films were. Livelox is at that same level or even higher.

Here's a link to one presentation I produced several years ago.. 

Livelox as a Training Aid

Livelox as a Training Aid Livelox as a Training Aid - Download as a PDF or view online for free

That's my favorite part of Livelox but there is more, so much more. 

The powers that be in Florida JROTC orienteering initially bought into Livelox because of the live tracking feature. It is not fun waiting around well after an event for a wayward orienteer. The live tracking feature for people who use their smart phone for tracking and available on a monitor or laptop to event organizers has been used to turn around more than a few orienteers in our days of using Livelox. 

To date we haven't opened up Livelox viewing at an event to everybody. But when we see an orienteer heading to the edge of the map we contact the leader who can phone and get the oerienteer turned around. 

And as Blaik pointed out the appeal of the all tracks feature on FLO's large monitor is magical. Imagine you are at the World Orienteering Championships looking at the large screen but you are really only at Croom Forest in Florida . It' the same thing only a different scale. 

If you are looking for ways to increase the appeal of your orienteering and are looking for a WOW factor Liveox live tracking may just be it. Combine that with the automatic loading and easy replay and I'm sure Livelox has played a significant role in increasing our event participation to around 4.000 orienteering starts per year. 

Best regards,

Gord Hunter

[Tori Campbell]

Hi, everyone.

  Quick question about survey results: do we have more than 13 clubs that subscribe to Livelox? From a purely economic perspective, that seems to be the break-even point for a national subscription vs club-level subscriptions (assuming all clubs pay $318, I realize it may not be that simple).

Thanks for all the discussion and the work put into researching this.

Tori

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/orienteeringusa.org/d/msgid/clubnet/CAPcMVHUfeEbPW9H%2B82NVyqS%3DNo6tnyC9Em_BOD7FHBOXMCo2RQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Dylan Poe]

Tori, 

In the last month, there are 20 clubs who uploaded an event to Livelox. And off the top of my head, I believe all 20 have uploaded more than 1 event. 

Dylan 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/orienteeringusa.org/d/msgid/clubnet/CADhvoVPA%2BYiEf5%2BPr5C67Ewm2_ShzZSD275miqQfOEGREAfnNg%40mail.gmail.com.

[Barb Bryant]

I'm interested to find out more about using Livelox with the high school orienteering team, and with the (very different) high school PE classes. For the latter, engaging the students is the biggest challenge, and this might be a way to do it.

Barb

Navigation Games

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/orienteeringusa.org/d/msgid/clubnet/CAAc3tTNC7B6OOz-RfyY2-%3DkbrwYvCqZ9-C23nHhE%3Dx3c3up_fA%40mail.gmail.com.

[Joseph Huberman]

Hi Barb,
I think you will find the presentation helpful, particularly when Blaik shows the real time tracking. He says everyone gatherers around the screen to watch where their friends are going. He did a run through with me and I was blown away by the viewing capabilities in Livelox. 

Joseph Huberman
Raleigh NC
919-610-1788

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/orienteeringusa.org/d/msgid/clubnet/CANTJvnS2kMdWgzuVXCz9HoV34hLTW%3DgCODgD7eehqkOEO0t3Ow%40mail.gmail.com.

[Tori Campbell]

Thanks, Dylan.  How many clubs actually subscribe rather than using the free version?

[Dylan Poe]

By my count, 10 clubs were using Livelox before the taskforce began. 7 of those clubs using the free version, 3 using the subscribed version. 

Right now, all clubs are getting the subscription features as LiveLox has given the US a "free trial" to the end of this year.

Dylan

[Ellen Stefaniak]

Looking at events posted on Livelox, there are 17 different clubs with events posted in the past month (24 since Oct 1), and one event for the Area 5 NJROTC Championships.  So it seems that clubs are taking advantage of the opportunity to try it out.

Ellen

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/orienteeringusa.org/d/msgid/clubnet/CAAc3tTMCQh%3DRYKJX-Ewjwg5bYWpk%3DuCAVGfqYXaBxR0m0H7u%2Bw%40mail.gmail.com.

[B. Brooke Mann]

In addition to the number of clubs, it would also be interesting to see the percentage of meet participants who uploaded their routes, by club.

(Even with active promotion of RouteGadget/RG2 for ~15 years, uptake among RMOC's local meet participants has always been very low.  Maybe it's different with Livelox?)

-- Brooke, RMOC Member

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/orienteeringusa.org/d/msgid/clubnet/CADT%2BaEHd67ANwdhjb7aDU6A0y0YeeQsKLhtatuqa-va1mj642g%40mail.gmail.com.

[Joseph Huberman]

Backwoods OK has used Livelox for 6 events with an average competitor use of 36%, a high of 47% and a low of 18%.  BOK had a couple of people using RouteGaget, but it never caught on.  We started using Livelox when the free subscription period started in November.

Joseph

================================
Joseph Huberman
904 Dorothea Drive
Raleigh, NC 27603

m. (919)610-1788

[Dylan Poe]

I'll take this chance to bring back the report that the task force put together. 

In it, we looked at a few club's usage, some for RG, and some for Livelox. The following taken from the report's summary:

Club’s use of orienteering analysis was investigated. In National Ranking Events, approximately 14% of starts were uploaded to RouteGadget, versus 24% of starts added to LiveLox. For local events, about 16% of starts were uploaded to RouteGadget, and 28% added to LiveLox. If clubs or OUSA push for the use of LiveLox, the percentage of use will increase, as shown by Florida Orienteering’s data on their LiveLox use.

This is definitely not an all encompassing study, but I think gives a good baseline for comparison. There are usage breakdowns towards the end of the report for the clubs/events we looked at for those interested.

Dylan

[B. Brooke Mann]

Hi Dylan,

That's exactly what I was interested in seeing.  Thank you!

-- Brooke, RMOC

[Gord Hunter]

Okay, we now know that Livelox is a slightly better product than Route Gadget. And Route Gadget is a very good product. I know I have been a faithful uploader for over a decade. 

Why is Livelox superior? Different things for different people but I love that with a subscription a person can compare uploaded orienteers leg by leg. That is a great teaching/ coaching tool.

Others (and me, too) like that our phones or a compatable tracking device can track us in the field and send that information back to a live display. Where that is being used it is being shown to be very cool for the customers. The two clubs in Florida probably have the highest rate of Livelox usage and also viewing at their events, the highest it seems in the world and it probably is because they use the live tracking and have the display available at the event. Livelox is giving the Florida orienteers a better event experience than they had before. 

But what about a national subscription? It would cost Orienteering USA a fair bit of money and it is not clear where that money is right now.  Does a Livelox subscription fit with the organizations Aims and Objectives? Who know? A while back I guess the 1970's called and wanted their Aims and Objectives returned. I could not find on their website what OUSA is focussed on doing. That's too bad. OUSA is doing some great things but has been mired around the 2,000 member level for so many years it seems that collectively growth of the sport in America is not an important aim. 

But lets assume whether written or not OUSA has a major aim and that is growth of orienteering in the USA Let's assume that OUSA wants to see orienteering in more places, run by more clubs. It also wants to see all clubs with more members and more participants at their events. 

More participants should lead to more volunteers. More volunteer > more events > more participants > more members > more volunteers > etc.

So how does Livelox fit into this? Coming out of the Aim to grow orienteering in America would come the objectives to hold more events, recruit more helpers, etc.

Here is where Livelox fits in. We existing orienteers seem to take it or leave it. But when it comes to growing the sport we have to look beyond our inner circle. What is it that can make orienteering more appealing to 'others'? It seems a better visual experience, a more collective experience and the feeling of a safer experience are three things that Livelox is giving the young orienteers of Florida and their parents and has them coming back. 

The use of Livelox can be one of several strategies to grow orienteering, a way of - to use the old marketing term - sell the sizzle; not the steak. 

Those Florida orienteers that Blaik showed with their live tracking, their friends and parents and the instant upload of the results to the web are having a world championships-like experience without leaving their home state. Now that's a lot of sizzle.

Still doubting? Come to Florida some time this winter and try it for yourself. We'll have 15 event/ days between Jan 12 and Msarch 9th, all with Livelox live and real-time upload of results. If you can't be there search out the links and be a remote viewer.

All the best,

Gord Hunter

Suncoast Orienteering 

[Tori Campbell]

Question for clubs who have now tried Livelox's subscription features but do not currently have a subscription:

  Would your club pay for a subscription if it was not funded at the OUSA level, and why / or why not?

Thanks for sharing the link again, Dylan.

Tori

[Joseph Huberman]

BOK  would probably pay for the subscription.  In just these couple of months we are getting about a 30% to 40% upload.  Live tracking tracking I think will increase that significantly.  That along with broadcasting results will be impressive to our participants, particularly to newcomers.  Also, I think live tracking will give parents more comfort when their kids are going out alone.  

Joseph

================================
Joseph Huberman
904 Dorothea Drive
Raleigh, NC 27603

m. (919)610-1788

[Michael Avery]

Straw poll of NEOOC leadership indicates that we would probably pay for a national subscription as well, if intent is to pass the subscription cost thru to the clubs that want it.  Probably will  renew our club subscription as well, if it comes to that, but less sure.

Mike

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/orienteeringusa.org/d/msgid/clubnet/CAO60M%3DgWar_ZjBcJPAGs-vnj82c%2BMf_74ky5Uhif%3D8TtLDEPnQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Matt Craig]

It feels like Mike’s idea of, let’s call it a “surcharge” to clubs that do use the national subscription is one good way to make sure all clubs aren’t fully subsidizing the few.

Dylan,

Flipping the surcharge idea around, what would the difference be between a national federation subscription and OUSA subsidizing some clubs’ usage? (In terms of features available, mainly.)

Also, a lot of the benefits up to this point sound plausible, but are theoretical until we have data on exactly how safety and learning and enthusiasm, etc. have increased based on clubs having access to and using LiveLox. 

If we had a pilot program where OUSA subsidized some clubs’ own subscriptions in return for them helping OUSA gather this data, maybe that’s a way to cover some costs but not lay out the entire sum of a national subscription all at once.

Matt

On Dec 16, 2023, at 10:07, Michael Avery <maver...@gmail.com> wrote:



To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/orienteeringusa.org/d/msgid/clubnet/CAGNup39jP70sOu1MaH1RTJtUuesJsb_2V3EJ%2B9Yc8OveU8Cqkw%40mail.gmail.com.

[Dylan Poe]

Matt, making sure I understand correctly. The suggestion is that clubs could buy their own club subscription, and OUSA could subsidize the cost?

If OUSA does the national subscription, then all features would be avaliable all the time.

For club subscriptions, there are a few differences. One, the duel feature (that breaks down time gain/loss for a leg by sections) would only be available for 1 leg per course. Second, there are three features that are more complicated. Viewing multiple routes in replay, viewing multiple routes in leg analysis, and ad free viewing are all avaliable if the event is classified as a "training" and are not avaliable if it is classified as a "competition." 

I do not know why there is a difference in "trainings" vs "competitions" or why clubs couldn't classify their events as "trainings" to get the full features of the club subscription. 

Hope this helps. 

Dylan

[Joseph Huberman]

While considering why OUSA should provide a Livelox subscription to the orienteering community I thought I would review the OUSA Mission and Strategic Focus and see how the Livelox subscription fits.

Orienteering USA’s mission is to:
★ Increase participation in the sport.  [We can evaluate the number of people using Livelox throughout the year by looking at the events on Livelox.]

★ Teach map reading and navigation skills.  [Post race analysis is important and this lowers the barrier to entry.]
★ Promote enjoyment of, and respect for, the environment. 
★ Establish world class competitive excellence within our national team programs. [Livelox offers features for a more in depth analysis than RouteGadget.] 

STRATEGIC FOCUS
★ Improving Services  [This is a service that will benefit both individuals and clubs.] 

★ Sponsoring Innovation [Automatic uploading of routes and live tracking gives our local events World Champion technology.]

Clubs that don't use Livelox aren't directly subsidizing clubs that do, because funding is coming out of OUSA's program budget that is planned to fund Strategic Focus projects, and isn't being taken away from any other club service.

One of my goals as VP of Club Services is to get orienteers more enthusiastic about their events and to improve their skills.  I believe that  course analysis is  beneficial to orienteers, so to maximize Livelox uptake we should minimize the barriers to participating.  If real time viewing excites people enough that the clubs start using it so much the better

OUSA should fully fund the first year.  Let's see how much Livelox use and club growth there is.  We can evaluate Livelox use by looking at the events themselves on Livelox throughout the year, and we can compare Starts to previous years.  We will be able to decide how we want to fund Livelox next year after clubs and orienteers have had 14 months to use it.  That is enough time for the interested clubs to implement it and orienteers to use it.  Over the course of the year we will see if the Livelox use stays up, or if after the novelty wears off, the numbers drop.

Joseph

===========================

Joseph Huberman

OUSA BOD, VP Club Services

m. 919-610-1788

[Tori Campbell]

Here's how I'm thinking about this:

1. We have a sense of base interest. Who's already "bought in." I suspect we also have NT members with individual subscriptions. At a certain point, I think an OUSA subscription is a no-brainer as an OUSA benefit because we "break even" as a group  (13 clubs, or 12 clubs + 6 NT members with individual subscriptions). 

2. If we haven't yet met the criteria for #1, I think the idea of a national subscription could be on more of a trial basis, perhaps for 6 months. The capabilities and opportunity to try them out are still relatively new to most OUSA clubs. Depending on location, some were winding down in their "O Season" when we got started in this conversation. There are a number of champions of how to get the most out of Livelox's capabilities, and a lot of energy and interest in those learning more.  To me, this is the definition of what we're looking for in the "Projects" part of our proposed OUSA budget. And I think 6 months is about the right amount of time to keep the momentum going, but also to gather enough information to decide if this is something we want to wrap into more of a standing OUSA benefit for clubs.

3. Before proceeding with a national subscription trial, I would want to see some criteria for measuring success (ie intent to adopt at OUSA level) articulated at the outset of such a project, as well as criteria to continue evaluation, and criteria not to continue.

Many thanks to everyone who has put so much effort into researching options and sharing how they use Livelox. I appreciate your work!

Tori

[Blaik Mathews]

Tori, that was my thinking exactly - if there are enough clubs willing to pay for a club subscription individually, then at some point there's a break-even where we're better off going national.  And by doing so not only do we get the Duel feature ourselves but we also extend the benefits of Livelox to all the little clubs too small to afford a club subscription on their own.

As for metrics: I am wary of making record-keeping and reporting a big enough nuisance that people won't want to try the product just because they don't want the hassle of reporting.  We're all operating on a shoestring and I know I personally am DROWNING in things to do as it is.  I mean if others have the bandwidth to survey their user base to try and track how much post-race analysis is going on, then more power to you and I'd love to see it, but I don't think that should be mandatory.  I think just tracking # of routes recorded (easy to do on the Livelox site) is sufficient for now, with aggregate % of total runners recording as a "nice to have".

I would caution everyone about expecting instant transformations in user behavior.  I think if you follow our recommendations and procedures about how to implement, you'll be able to ramp up participation much faster than we did.  That said, it took FLO/SOAR a few years to really get traction up to the level we're at now, because it involves changing the behavior of a LOT of people - and doing that continually as a fresh crop of JROTC cadets enters the system every school year.  Expecting a transformation in 6 months is a pretty aggressive goal.

-- Blaik

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/orienteeringusa.org/d/msgid/clubnet/CADhvoVO0SCpGzh0XYTqQj%2B8abs7qah9AtrTo4%3D6bK0imPS7Nng%40mail.gmail.com.

[maver...@gmail.com]

I agree strongly with Blaik regarding allowance of sufficient time for Livelox to catch on.  Here is the adoption curve for NEOOC since beginning with Livelox in 2020:

 

• 2020 – 11 uploaded routes by 9 unique individuals, across 2 events
• 2021 – 45 uploaded routes by 20 unique individuals, across 9 events
• 2022 – 195 uploaded routes by 64 unique individuals, across  15 events
• 2023 – 269 uploaded routes by 97 unique individuals, across 14 events

 

Mike

[Tori Campbell]

Thanks, everyone.

  I think anything that we fund out of the "Projects" line should have some metrics for defining outcomes as part of the proposal. Those should be proposed by whomever is applying for the funding, but it's reasonable that OUSA should ask for feedback on how a project we fund went, especially if it's something that might be brought forward for future funding. I would support extending funding beyond 6 months if there were sufficient progress towards clearly defined outcomes. 

As a Board, we have discussed supporting initiatives that people are passionate about making happen. The Board can have all the good ideas in the world, but if there isn't someone willing to put in the time and effort to carry them out, then allocating resources is pointless. I think we all want to see OUSA's resources used well, and there's clearly a drive to make this project successful. What I'm asking for is a framework to measure progress over time so that we have a process to know if it's worth continued investment, or whether we should allocate resources towards a different project proposal.

Tori

 

[Dylan Poe]

As the one who will be bringing this to a board vote tomorrow, I will include what I think is a good success metric below.

In the proposal I posted to BoardNet 2 weeks ago, I proposed purchasing the subscription for 12 months. This was for the same reasons Mike and Blaik stated above, allowing sufficient time to catch on. I didn't think 6 months was enough time. My thoughts were for people to see it used at a couple NREs and local events in the next calendar year to give people who might not have heard about LiveLox a chance to see it and try it out, around their personal schedule and club's event schedule (clubs have different seasons, etc.).

As for a success metric, what do people think about the following?

Success for a national LiveLox subscription in 2024 will be to have 33% of clubs upload 2 or more events.

Again, for the same reasons Mike and Blaik stated, I feel 50% is too aggressive, while 25% wouldn't be enough usage to justify a national subscription. This is just my opinion. And "2 or more" will remove the clubs who tried Livelox once or twice and didn't find it useful.

OUSA has 66 clubs (I don't remember if this includes supporting members or not, but I don't think it does). That would mean 22 clubs would need to upload 2 or more events in 2024 to meet the above criteria. 22 clubs is also above the "break even" point of ~13 clubs.

I'm not sure number of tracks uploaded would be a good metric, some clubs have 20 starts per event, while others are in the hundreds. Maybe a percentage of tracks uploaded makes sense, but I think the number of clubs using LiveLox would give the best understanding of use.

Dylan

[John Pane]

I’m not a club or OUSA official, just a participant, and a relatively new one at that. I happen to compete in two clubs’ events — one that uses Livelox one that uses RouteGadget. One recent weekend, both had competitions. The Livelox club had over half (18/34) of finishers’ routes uploaded; the RouteGadget club about one-quarter (9/37).  On the Tuesday after that weekend, the figures were 17/34 for Livelox and 4/37 for RouteGadget.

As a new orienteer, I am very interested in learning through using tools such as these. The point I want to make is that the higher participation with Livelox is a great benefit, but the benefit of high participation is magnified by the immediacy of that data being available. Route analysis is most salient soon after the event, so it’s not just having more competitors to compare with, but having their data available within hours, or maybe within a day or two, seems particularly beneficial.

John Pane

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/orienteeringusa.org/d/msgid/clubnet/CAAc3tTMUpmpqp%2BzQoFDjE7RWGwQjYZU8nFyND_uirPuabjObKQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Michael Avery]

This is similar to what NEOOC went thru while considering the purchase of our first subscription.  Metrics were established on additional members brought into the club as well as utilization of the service -  number of runners uploading routes and number of routes uploaded.

At the end of the day, the hard metrics that were established were not met, however nobody could argue that the undertaking was not successful because of the year-over-year increases that have been seen in the number of runners uploading routes and the number of routes being uploaded.  Plus, there were positive comments from our event participants being heard.

I agree with Tori's position that you need some metrics to know what success will look like.  However I would recommend staying away from hard numbers that need to be met to declare success, and instead look for the trajectory of usage through the year -  a sustained positive month-over-month growth, normalized for event participation, would be a good indicator of how successful the project is.  You could also include a before, middle and after "quick survey" that club leaders could be asked to submit to get an idea of how it's going at the grass roots level and whether they think it's been a worthwhile use of OUSA funds.

Mike

[Faye Doria]

Personally, I think 2 events is still in the trial stages.  I don't think 2 would mean anything in terms of usage over 12 months.

Is it possible to pay the subscription quarterly, rather than in a lump sum?

And I still want to hear how other national federations are charged based on orienteers and uploads and whatever in the future.  I would not like to be surprised to discover we are being asked to pay some much higher fee in a year or two.  Is there a written proposal from LiveLox?  I feel it has all been rather informal.

Faye Doria

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/orienteeringusa.org/d/msgid/clubnet/CAAc3tTMUpmpqp%2BzQoFDjE7RWGwQjYZU8nFyND_uirPuabjObKQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Dylan Poe]

Ok, if not 2, how many? Some clubs only have ~10 events a year.

Faye, are you talking a payment plan? Or purchasing the subscription for 3 months at a time? If the latter, I already stated my reasons for a 12 month subscription. 

I don't think comparisons to other national federations has been brought up before now. But here's what I know from my discussions with them. Livelox works with each national federation that purchases a subscription. Switzerland, for example, asked Livelox for a different way to download data. As I understand, that slightly increased their cost to Livelox. They pay per "active orienteer." Switzerland has way more orienteers as compared to the US, they likely pay many times what our offer is. I'm not sure a comparison to other federations is reasonable, as they all seem to be unique. 

Livelox values their service to the US at ~$8,500/year (their initial offer) and have decreased their offer by about half, to the current $4,251/year. If OUSA does a 12 month subscription, and want to continue to 2025, the price may change based on the usage we see, but that seems too far out to worry about to me, as we haven't decided about next year. I understand wanting to know, but as I said, Livelox works with each national federation, and will work with OUSA with costs for 2025, if we get to that point. 

Dylan

[Blaik Mathews]

John Payne,

Thank you for reminding me of another Livelox exclusive:  Because routes recorded on the smartphone Livelox app are uploaded in real time, tracks are available for viewing even WHILE THE EVENT IS STILL IN PROGRESS.  In most instances, the route data comes in so quickly that I can use it to adjudicate SportIdent protests (i.e., "I punched that control, but the finger stick didn't record it!") in real time during the event.  (Spoiler alert: If SI says you didn't punch it, you didn't punch it - but being able to SHOW them that on the screen based on their recorded track puts the protest to rest instantly AND increases confidence in the SI system to boot.)

I typically keep the Livelox event locked down by password while the event is running and release it after the last finishers have come in, so under those circumstances only event officials can see the tracks until a little later in the day.  But as someone pointed out in the Forum call last Thursday, the password could potentially be posted at the SI download table so people would be able to browse their recorded tracks immediately in many cases.  I expect that Gord would say don't do that, as the instant gratification would lead many to skip the step of hand-drawing their track on their map first, but this is a choice that could be made at the ED level.  😉

-- Blaik

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/orienteeringusa.org/d/msgid/clubnet/E5E80F1C-4591-4584-A25D-E944BD4CADCF%40pane.net.

[Faye Doria]

Since the LiveLox website states:

The federation pays an annual fee based on the number of active orienteers and routes uploaded to Livelox.

it seemed a reasonable question.  What do other national federations pay? and how is it calcuated.

Seems a simple question that shouldn't be hard to answer.  I don't feel any urgency to make a decision tomorrow if we don't have all the information we need to have.

I also have not heard a word about the documentation that was going to be prepared, or the volunteers that were going to be available to help clubs get over whatever hurdles they encounter.

Thanks,

Faye

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/orienteeringusa.org/d/msgid/clubnet/CAAc3tTPVEbyP7PNbxB9%2B0Cydb%2B_efXUuLvAJkQWAomu%2B34bX1Q%40mail.gmail.com.

[Alec Richardson]

Faye, I agree that  "I would not like to be surprised to discover we are being asked to pay some much higher fee in a year or two."  I think it is important to know if Livelox is giving us a discounted rate for us to try it out and then will be dramatically increasing the price.  Livelox would not be able to guarantee a rate for a future year without OUSA making a commitment, but they know whether they are giving us a heavily discounted rate which would shoot up in a year or two.  

Dylan, I can understand your perspective that worrying about the price a year from now doesn't seem to matter right now, but let me ask you a question.  If you had a magic ball and knew that Livelox would increase the rate to an amount that OUSA would not renew at next year, would you still want to go forward with the initiative knowing that it would just be a 1 year thing?  I can see reasons to answer both yes and no to that question, but I would think anyone who would answer no would want to know whether OUSA is getting a heavily discounted intro rate.

.

Thanks,

Alec

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/orienteeringusa.org/d/msgid/clubnet/64850199.2112741.1702875306636%40mail.yahoo.com.

[Dylan Poe]

Again, I understand wanting to know, but as Faye stated, the cost depends on usage. I don't think LiveLox will give us a price for 2025 if we don't have any information about our usage for 2024. I also don't think LiveLox has an equation they plug into for their price. 

As I said, LiveLox values their service in the US at ~$8,500/year. So it seems very likely that a price for 2025 would fall between the current $4,251 and $8,500. I've already stated livelox has decreased their offer, so to put it in plain terms, yes we are getting a discounted price for 2024.

If I had a magic 8 ball, (which of course I don't), I would still propose LiveLox for 2024. If anything, it would show me OUSA and the board at least took an action and tried something new, which may not count for much, but counts for something in my eyes. 

As far as documentation, I'm taking this one step at a time. I haven't worried about that yet as I don't even know if we're going to follow through with a subscription in 2024. There's plenty of great info about how to use Livelox, so I don't think the documentation will need to be that extensive. Also, I assume the person making the documentation would be me, as I don't think anyone else would volunteer for it. And I don't have the bandwidth to work on that right now, especially if I don't know if it's needed right at this point. 

[vido al]

In order to have a clear idea what are the features of Livelox I decided to test it last weekend. My local club QOC had 2 races in the last 2 days. A Night-O on Saturday and a Day-O on Sunday.

Before the events I created a Livelox account. Then I installed the mobile app. It was difficult to find the link for the app but after a few minutes I found it. I'm not sure the newcomers can find the link but a direct link on the club website can help with this.

Today, there are a total 10 uploads for the Night-O and 12 uploads for the Day-O. The Livelox usage is lower compared to the QOC Route Gadget uploads - 18 for the Night-O and 11 for the Day-O so far. The Route Gadget uploads will increase as it requires manual upload.

My comments about Livelox paid features over the free "Basic" version and free Route Gadget.

The free "Basic" version includes the live tracking and it is something that Route Gadget doesn't. Overall, the "live" tracking was and will be useless for me as a competitor for a few reasons. Some of the reasons are not really related to the Livelix system. Some of the reasons are related to my preferences and the way the club is setting the Livelox event.

 - The events were not open for public view until the last start. This is because the club doesn't want to disclose the map and the courses before the last start. I had early starts so my daughter wasn't able to track me live from home.

 - Carrying my phone with me. I was carrying my phone with me just for the tests but I will not do that again. It may be an option for newcomers that are not OUSA members but not for most of the current long time OUSA members.

 - On my Day-O course, my track disappears around the second control of my course and the triangle pointer is going on the straight line between the controls for the remaining part of the course. This is something related to the Lovelox system or mobile app. I understand, my phone may lose 4G connection from time to time, but it should upload the whole track when the cell coverage is available. It didn't happen.

- The free "Basic" version includes the live tracking anyway.

About the paid Livelox features.

- Replay multiple routes simultaneously - Supported by Route Gadget for free.

- View multiple routes simultaneously leg-by-leg - Supported by Route Gadget for free. You need to zoom on the lag manually and select the starting control for the animation.

- View duel comparison for any leg - Partially supported by Route Gadget for free. You need to zoom on the lag manually and select the starting control for the animation. Route Gadget doesn't split the leg to small sections as Livelox do.

- Ad free - Route Gadget is ad free.

Currently, clubs have different free options (including free Livelox basic) that can provide most of the paid Livelox features. So I think, OUSA should spend these $4251 for junior development and let clubs decide if they want to pay $318 for a club membership and receive all these paid features in one. The small clubs that can't host their own Route Gadget and can't afford $318 per year they just can use the free Livelox basic. Also for these clubs OUSA can provide free Route Gadget hosting. As I mentioned before, I plan to integrate Route Gadget in EventReg system.

Videlin

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[Ruth Bromer]

I've stayed out of the discussion so far, but I have to comment now since the Board meeting is tonight.

I've tried to use Route Gadget in the past but even when another club member put his course up, which was Red, I couldn't figure out how to get Brown up and then I couldn't figure out how to get my own track up. I gave up. 

With Livelox, all courses are up in minutes and I used the app on my phone. Bingo, I was in. I could compare my routes. I can't wait to do that at an NRE where I'm competing only against my class if I want to. That will be so helpful. OK, so I can't take my phone, but I use a Garmin watch.

On the rare instances when someone is injured, Livelox can help find and get to them. 

For coaches of young people, it can be invaluable in training and locating lost kids. I ran at a Florida meet a few years ago. I found a girl sitting in the road in the sun, unable to move from the heat. I helped her into the shade and started to call for help. A car came, not because of my call, but because they already had the information that she wasn't moving.

This bickering over whether we're being ripped off compared to other countries or that they'll raise the price, or trying it for too short a time to see if it will continue to be used or is just a fad, is going over the top in my opinion. This is something that OUSA can do for the clubs that all participants can see and use.  Whether OUSA will continue the subscription is a choice that can be made at the end of the year after seeing how useful it is to the clubs and participants in relation to what the future cost will be. For OUSA to grow, it needs to be seen as relevant.  Livelox can help everyone in the country who wants to use it. Money for new maps or teams, while important, supports a few. Let's offer something that can help everyone, whether it be just for fun, to improve route choices going forward, or to help find lost or injured participants.

Ruth Bromer, BOK

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[vido al]

Hi Ruth, 

You have all this functionality for free already. No one is stopping you to use Livelox. The question is should OUSA pay $4251 for a couple additional Livelox features that are not included in Livelox Basic. Again, Livelox is good system and you can use it for free. Or, if you insist on multi -competitor view, duel and no ads, your club can pay $318. 

Videlin 

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[Ruth Bromer]

Vido, 

This is something that OUSA can do for all clubs. Our club can afford it, but others can't. Also, not all options are available if it isn't the whole country from what I understand. 

Ruth 

[Andrea Schneider]

I'll chime in as someone who has supported junior and youth development in schools in our area, at my local club as well as at the national level. I have also tried to introduce Livelox in our club, during the pandemic, was easy, yes, only the free features obviously (although I sponsored accounts for the lead teacher at every participating JROTC school, 4 of them), it was yet hard to get people to engage. I also shared Routegadget and and MapRun with our JROTC teams, and some other, families with kids, especially who were homeschooling, who looked like they could really enjoy orienteering as an extra PE and other integrated curriculum. At least for out here the one hurdle was that those who would have been interested, did not have or want to have their kids carry smartphones.

But the one thing we lack most is "new blood", people eager to jump in as volunteers, people who do not come from orienteering families and backgrounds and yet get into the sport cause something clicked beyond trying it out once with all these other new sport offerings and activities people can get into these days.

I look at the clubs that have really grown successfully in the years that I have been part of the US community, and the clubs that have the strongest growth are those who have managed to draw in kids and youth from non-orienteering families, who then through the strong PTA and Boosters culture of support in the USA has drawn in the supporting family members (who then run fundraisers, pitch in as volunteers), where some of them have even picked up orienteering for themselves, and now have a support from an entire community.

Everyone who knows me will know that I will be a fierce defender of good funding to juniors and junior development and youth development and junior travel to big events in the USA as well as internationally, so as to experience what it means to have to start in specific start windows, have the extra pressure of many other runners in the woods, etc. But I also know that none of the development can happen sustainably if the orienteering community, whether as orienteers or 'mere' supporters or even spectators willing to then tell others about this cool sport, does not grow. 

I was hoping from someone from COC to chime in, especially people who have seen the WIOL and WL numbers soar, on what their thoughts may have been as a club on the entire Livelox proposal. Grizzly Orienteering is another very fast growing club, and it would be good to hear from them whether their use of Livelox has helped with growing the community outside the traditional youth from O-families who came there for college, or the potential they see for that. And I can also see some non-orienteering families in many areas being more comfortable with their kids being out there alone if they could know they could see them on a screen.

So for that reason I would be definitely in the corner of small clubs who have said that they would welcome to have the added easy tools to bring in more people and give them a chance to grow their community, even for just a year - and then let's take it from there. And the clubs who have successfully used Livelox may want to look into assembling groups of mentors for the clubs who need that support.

Andrea Schneider

Dylan

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[Cristina Luis]

Hi all,

I'll piggyback on Ruth's comment a bit. As both an organizer and a competitor, Livelox works the way I expect a modern web application to work. I can't imagine going back to RouteGadget. There's just no comparison. The user experience is oftentimes more important than a list of features, especially when trying to get new people to use something, and Livelox offers a great user experience. 

I was on the fence about whether OUSA should spend the money on a national subscription. I suspect our club would be open to paying for a club subscription, but I know lots of smaller clubs wouldn't. However, I think it would be fantastic for the sport were there to be widespread use and promotion of a centralized system like Livelox. This is one of the benefits of Livelox that seems to be ignored--you can browse events all over the country or world on one single site, and someone else is doing the maintenance to make sure it stays up. That's worth paying for.

BTW, countries that use Eventor for registration and results are also integrated with Livelox, and Livelox is an expected part of the experience of going to an event in these countries. Regardless of where OUSA goes with this proposal, I really hope we don't spend money to integrate RouteGadget with EventReg. That's like buying a fax machine for your new office. It'll still work, and it was great when it came out, but there are better solutions now. 

Cristina

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[Clinton Morse]

Just to chime in on Vido's comment that all this functionality in Livelox is 'already free'.  This is true, for the moment, because Livelox unlocked all the extra features through the end of 2023 specifically so that the US orienteering community could check it out.  January 1st, many of those currently free features will revert to only being available through one of the paid subscription models.

Clinton Morse

National Communications Manager

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[Blaik Mathews]

Aside concerning the use of smartphones:

I do hear occasional push-back from various sources about proposing that O participants carry a smartphone as a recording device, and their objections are well-founded:

• A smartphone is heavier than other GPS recording options.
• It's an expensive piece of equipment to risk.
• Not everyone has a mobile data plan.
• At some venues certain carriers won't have cell coverage.
• Smartphones have widely varied and constantly-evolving underlying OS/security ecosystems that can cause issues with track recording.

All valid points, and my reply to all of them is always the same: It's the worst possible solution, except for all the others.

Elite orienteers have always used dedicated recording devices (Garmin watches, Suunto Trackpods, etc.), and I have no expectation or even desire to see them change that.  If you're happy with your existing device, then more power to you.  Livelox can work with it.  But if you want to mainstream this kind of recording from the average casual orienteer (and particularly new orienteers), there simply is no viable alternative to leveraging the fact that every carbon-based life form in the US already has a smartphone, and has an existing skillset and comfort level with it.  That's what makes them willing to try recording that first time and then keeps coming back to do it regularly when they see how easy it is.

In the discussions above, I keep hearing about whole events where they had 10 or 20 RG tracks recorded.  That's no more than 2 or 3 tracks per course.  Ignore the use of smartphones, and you will NEVER break out of that pattern.  We have decades of club-year experience to prove that.  Compare that with the last 2 FLO/SOAR events at which we had 267 tracks and 205 tracks respectively - almost 2/3 of our participants recorded!  That level of engagement simply can't be obtained any other way.  Are there issues?  Sure.  Is it 100% effective?  No.  Nothing in technology ever is.  That's why you want smart people who know both the technology and orienteering working to maintain the system over time, and that skilled labor isn't going to be free.

-- Blaik

On Mon, Dec 18, 2023 at 11:54 AM Cristina Luis <cristi...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Blaik Mathews]

Col Ferguson has tried to add his voice to this thread, but is getting nastygrams about not being able to post to ClubNet.  So I am re-posting his reply here with his permission:

All,

Having used Livelox under Blaik’s direction for the last four or five years teaching around 100 (sometimes 126) NJROTC cadets at Camp Blanding, Florida, I LOVE the added safety Livelox provides for these teenagers.  Camp Blanding, an Army National Guard post, had a soldier die while land navigation training three years ago so all cadets (and soldiers) wear a “dog collar” tracking device that basically gives a vector, but not a distance, to a missing individual. Livelox beats that hands-down for safety.  

Additionally a big plus is the joy of the students who have finished a course when we show other runs going on in real time.  

And finally, since this is a teaching course, Livelox is very useful in feedback classes at night.  And of course everyone loves Blaik’s presentation when he shows routes that go all over the map (and off it!).  A great deal of learning goes on with the laughter.

 
Livelox has my full support.

Thank you,
Chuck

P.S.'s From me: This year at that training camp the staff allowed us to use Livelox in lieu of the "dog collars" for the first time.  We had almost 100% compliance and needed only 2 or 3 collars to fill in the holes to get full coverage for "operational risk management" as the military-types call it.

Also, thanks to the rapid upload and availability of track data, we could run an event in the afternoon and then go straight to the classroom in the evening and discuss what people did right and wrong on the big screen.

[vido al]

Hi Blaik,

I would agree with you on the newcomers and casual orienteers. The phone tracking app is the main advantage of Livelox but that is already included in the free Livelox basic.

And I also value technology smart people working to maintain a system so if a club thinks this will add an extra value to their events I encourage them to pay for the club Livelox plan.

Videlin

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[B. Brooke Mann]

Another aside, related to the risks of taking an expensive smartphone on the course —

I bought a phone lanyard / tether after a painful three-hour round-trip drive to retrieve my phone from a course at Cheyenne Mountain State Park a few years ago...

* Universal Phone Lanyard Neck Phone Holder, Silicone

   https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07KVZN1Y6

* KOALA 2.0 Super-Grip Smartphone Harness

   https://www.hangtimegear.com/products/koala-2-0-super-grip-smartphone-harness

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[Andrea Schneider]

This would be a national benefit to small clubs who would want to increase their attendance, also with reach into the non-orienteering community, which would then be able to spread orienteering to more communities in the USA, also some communities away from the two coasts that benefit from having had strong orienteering-families supported growth.

Many clubs have tried many ways to grow, promote, expand, and OUSA has always asked in the recent past how they could help clubs grow - it appears that some clubs have found one working solution in Livelox, and a national subscription would help precisely the clubs who would not have the funding yet to support this user-friendly tool in addition to growing their stash of maps, paying park and land access fees, etc.

If giving this a try for one year, maybe OUSA can have a task force on looking into how an increase in participation and growth in clubs through Livelox can be translated into increased revenue for OUSA to cover the costs of a potentially future national subscription beyond a trial year, so as to actually have ideas and proposals ready to go long before the talks start next fall about whether to continue or not.

Andrea

Dylan

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[Joseph Huberman]

The highest level of analysis in Livelox is the "View duel comparison for any leg" in that it shows where in the leg time was lost or gained.  This feature is not available in the "Club" subscription, but only in the "Premium" Individual €49/yr subscription and the "Country" subscription according to their website.

Joseph

================================
Joseph Huberman
904 Dorothea Drive
Raleigh, NC 27603

m. (919)610-1788

Dylan

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[Clare Durand]

Orienteering USA has recently received a generous donation from Peter Gagarin and he has expressed interest in having the donation be used to fund the Livelox initiative. With this funding available for the first year we can focus on helping clubs to implement Livelox and on developing and tracking metrics to evaluate the initiative. 

Thank you to everyone for a great discussion. Your input will help the Board to make a final decision on this. Both Livelox funding and next year's budget are on the Agenda for tonight's meeting. All are welcome to attend via Google Meet (link in the agenda).

Agenda

Clare Durand

President, Orienteering USA

pres...@orienteeringusa.org

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[Tori Campbell]

Thank you, Peter!

[Michael Avery]

Yes, thank you for your generosity, Peter!

[Joseph Huberman]

Thank you Peter. Everyone is a winner tonight. 

Joseph Huberman
Raleigh NC
919-610-1788

[Info OCIN]

Thank you Peter!

Mike Minium

On Dec 18, 2023, at 6:28 PM, Joseph Huberman <joseph....@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Blaik Mathews]

Many thanks, Peter, for your generosity and support for this initiative!  I think it was a factor in making the motion a shoo-in at tonight's OUSA board meeting.  Looking forward to ramping up our use of this incredible tool in 2024!

All club admins and ED's: Stay tuned after the holidays for materials and advice from Dylan and I about how to make Livelox available at upcoming events, how to motivate your participants to become regular users, and how to maximize the benefits.  I will also be offering a virtual training in the near future on how to get reliable internet to run the Livelox live tracking at event sites.

-- Blaik

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[Gord Hunter]

Spoiler alert: this is a way to long posting from yours truly. Sorry.

Great job and of course thank you Peter for the help in getting the Livelox national subscription proposal across the starting line. Yes, starting line. 

If people are just expecting to see Livelox as another version of Route Gadget where we upload our tracks after the fact then there will be a lot of dollars heading away with no gain. 

It's called LIVElox for a reason. That display of live tracking at a  miniscule fraction of the cost it takes to produce it at the WOC and JWOC events is the main reason to have Livelox because 1) it is a safety feature. but 2) it is a 'sexy feature' that pulls people in, gives the sport some spectator appeal and helps parents, particularly, feel comfortable letting their kids do the sport. Hence better attendance numbers. 

We saw a lot of comments about the need to restrict viewing until the last starter has started or last finisher has finished. That is true at big events with prizes at stake but what about our local events with no prizes? Look at the attraction in opening Livelox viewing right from the start. Parents and friends can follow their interests right from the start and right from the 'comfort of their home'. 

(Did you tune in to the live tracking for WOC and JWOC last summer? I don't always do it but I did this year. I cringed and cursed watching  Ottawa clubmate Emily Kemp miss her first control and effectively run herself out of the medals at the beginning of one race then sat there encouraged as she clawed her way back up the standings by spiking control after control. I also cringed watching an OUSA JWOC orienteer miss what looked like an easy to see trail junction and run by only to lose about ten minutes on one leg. The viewing emotions are not always pure joy but they are still great endorphin-producers. Now imagine you have just finished your weekly orienteering run at the nearby state park. Instead of getting in your car and going home you go over to the monitor and watch to see how your rivals are getting on and if they still have a chance of beating your time. Afterwards you and your friends decide to attend the event the other club some 200 miles down the road is hosting because they'll have live Livelox, too.   

That is when Livelox will have made the big difference.

Up in Ottawa there are 3-5 top class orienteers racing each other pretty-well every event.  It is interesting to replay their routes on the weekly Route Gadget posting but how much more interesting would it be if that club got a Livelox subscription and it was arranged that interested members could watch them or their images race through the woods in real time? We would hear comments like 'I bet he goes this way to #6' 'Oops, he missed the turn', 'Look that old guy is obviously following her'. Then we would have Livelox doing something we have never imagined possible for orienteering - making it into a spectator sport and thus getting more people coming and  coming back. And that is one of the key things for OUSA - to grow the sport.

So lets get busy and REALLY take advantage of this  generosity and the preparation already done. 

Not sure how to get Livelox going? There is a heck of a lot of information to help sitting on the Florida orienteering website in easy to digest videos Florida Orienteering 

Florida Orienteering Florida Orienteering Club

Gord Hunter

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[Peter Gagarin]

Hi,

Allow me to offer a few thanks of my own.

— To Dylan and Blaik for their work in bringing the LiveLox proposal forward with such thoroughness and expertise and passion. I watched Blaik's presentation last week, very cool.
— To all the folks who engaged in the ClubNet discussion with different points of view and interesting things to add to the conversation, always respectful of different opinions. ClubNet the way it should be. Especially to Faye for her work to keep our finances in good shape, to Joe for his work to improve club services, and to Gord for, well. I’ve known Gord for about 50 years and my admiration for what he does for orienteering just continues to grow.
— And to Clare for her many years of good leadership to our federation.

A couple of weeks ago, after thinking about it for some time, and especially thinking about all that Clare has done for both LAOC and OUSA, I sent in an unrestricted donation, to which I added a note that I really liked LiveLox and I thought it would be a fine use of the money to support the proposal, but that I wanted to leave it up to her and the Board. I couldn’t be happier with how this has played out.

But, of course, now comes the hard work, taking advantage of the opportunity. I hope that a year from now there will be many successes to celebrate, and then even more in the years after that. I have every reason to expect that will happen.

Peter

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